 Okay All right, welcome everybody to our panel today. My name is Brad McLean I'm a social scientist with NC wit which is the National Center for Women in IT and I welcome you and I'm happy to see that you've attended this panel discussion, which proves to be lively and spirited I want to offer my thanks as well as on behalf of all the panelists to open stack to the women of open stack and to Nitya Ruff here for organizing this event as well as a workshop that occurred earlier in the day and to everyone else as Well for coming we thank you This session is called the diversity of innovation and our discussion today will focus on three major themes number one unconscious bias number two male allies and advocates of diversity and inclusion and number three Intersectionality we will hear about our panelists ideas some of their personal experiences regarding these issues We'll summarize some facts and figures and research for you and hopefully all of us will walk away with some concrete actions We can all take back home or in our organizations for all of us to become allies of inclusivity I have some prepared questions that I'll be asking the panel But we also will be welcoming audience questions as well There are two microphones in the aisles and if there is a question you'd like to ask Please jot it down at the end the final 10 or 15 minutes will be an opportunity for you to ask your questions to the panelists as well So let's set some ground rules first and frame the conversation and then we'll introduce our panelists first of all Diversity and inclusion. This is an everyone's issue not a woman's issue Second of all women are not broken and do not need to be fixed number three men are not the enemy Quite the contrary as we shall learn and hopefully is already evident to you by our panel makeup today There are at least two cases to be made for diversity and inclusion in tech The first is the social justice case it's the right thing to do 50% of our population is women and Their representation in tech among all industry sectors is a social justice issue the second Is the business case we know that? Innovation is closely tied to diversity diversity of life experiences Perspectives opinions functional diversity all benefit business practices from innovation and creativity It's a productivity efficiency and the solving of complex problems all important to the tech sector And yet we have a big challenge in front of us since the mid 1980s where we had 30 to 40 percent of the workforce and computer science represented by women That number has been in steady decline for the last 25 or 30 years Today as we found out in the summer of 2014 when Silicon Valley released its numbers In a spirit of data transparency the numbers for participation in tech today hover around 13 to 20 percent depending on the company This at a time when the tech industry is at an all-time high for its influence and income as an industry The sunlight shined on this issue in the press and with this data coming out has ushered forth a new era Making this a priority issue amongst companies worldwide not just in the United States We know more about diversity and inclusion from a social science perspective than we've ever known before and we know What to do about it and so here we are today to actually confront these issues and discuss them as a panel So with that framing of this discussion some ground rules Let me introduce my esteemed panel who I should mention were nominated by their peers and the women of open stack To appear as male advocates and allies or people interested in male advocacy and allies Today on the panel so I will introduce each panelist by reading a short bio and then ask them the following question Why are you here on this panel today? Why do you care about this issue? And we'd like to start with Nitya Ruff of SanDisk corporation She is the director of SanDisk open source strategy office reports to SanDisk CTO and senior vice president She first glimpsed the power of open source while at a silicon graphics in the 90s and has been building bridges Between hardware developers and the open source community ever since Nitya is a well-known speaker and writer on open innovation The power of collaboration and diversity in technology innovation Nitya has been an advocate and a speaker for opening doors to new people in open source and technology in general and Has been promoting diverse ways of contributing such as marketing legal and community at SanDisk She is also the president of SanDisk women Innovation network or win dedicated to the development of women's highest potential in the workplace She is a big believer that a company's diversity can strengthen a company's innovation agenda Nitya, why are you here on this panel today? I nominated myself So that's why I'm here like volunteered no seriously though in tech in general as you said 75% of Decision-makers 75% of the tech Workforce of men and also in open source in particular. We have very few women in open source so it's important that we work across men and women to Make sure that this is collaborative inclusive transparent and a great place to be and my colleagues on the stage are Great examples of people who strive every day to do that. So I wanted to join them And the reason we are all here today. So thank you very much Next up we have mark mule who is a senior vice president platform technologies for Comcast His team is responsible for building and running many of the technologies underpinning the products and services Comcast provides to consumers and businesses He's the proud father of four and a passionate passionate advocate of diversity and inclusion in general Mark, why are you here on this panel today? Thanks. First of all, it's nice to be here. Thank you for the introduction. Thanks for putting this together I hear I'm here for mainly two reasons There's a lot to learn It's an issue that really needs to be out in front of people It needs to be a topic of conversation I think probably in most companies and in most technical communities open stack being you know one that I care deeply about and One that I think can benefit from conversations like this So I want to help bring this to the forefront of everyone's thinking on a personal level You mentioned I have four kids and I am a proud father of four Very proud just for the record Three of them are women three of them will grow up to be women. Let me be clear They're not women yet. They are They're six eight. I have a son who's 11 and my oldest daughter is 13 and I love my job and I love working on technical problems and I you know I believe that software is eating the world is as Mark Andreessen has coined and I want them to be able to have The viable option of working in the same field that I work in and be included and be valued So for me, it's a very personal thing Because my three daughters. I want them to feel like they can participate in that in the ecosystem that I love so much Very very glad to have you here Next we have Dorian Nevae of EMC corporation He is a senior director in EMC's technology alliances organization and is focused on building EMC's open stack partner ecosystem Dorian has successfully led alliance efforts for some of EMC's most strategic Relationships and is now concentrating on enabling third-platform opportunities with key emerging partners for nearly 20 years Dorian's passion has been to address customer requirements through the formation and management of complex global Relationships across a wide variety of industries Dorian. Why are you here on this panel today? Thanks Brad appreciate it You know for a couple of reasons So again, thank you for the opportunity to be here I think this is an important issue and I'm kind of proud to be part of it You know first of all, you know working for EMC. You think you know conservative East Coast company I've been there for 13 years and have seen it kind of evolve from a very Conservative sort of single-minded type of a company and I think it's important to shed the light that even some of the more Conservative companies Given the right kind of a focus can make some dramatic changes in a short amount of time And I've experienced that personally at EMC and wanted to share some of those experiences that I've seen and some of the steps That a big company can take to really focus on something important Which which we term as diversity and inclusion on the second part is I've been involved in OpenStack for a few years now And I've been just really enjoying the meteor growth and the you know and seeing what's happening there I think it's a really exciting space and You know, I think there's been some real tangible Metrics and benefits that companies get when they diversify and are very inclusionary I mean there's some some real numbers that are that I'll share with you a little bit later And companies are simply more successful They're more innovative when they have a higher rates of inclusion of both women and other minority groups So I think that's another one. And then finally, I mean, I'm human being like, you know, like my colleague Mark I mean I've got daughters as well And I think it's just from as you mentioned a social issue that we all really need to focus on And it's just I think you commented on my Angelou said that the tapestry of people together form one better Solution than just, you know myopic view so So I'm here glad to have you as well And we have Imad Sosu from the Intel Corporation He is vice president of the software and services group at Intel Corporation and general manager of the Intel open source Technology Center a position. He's held since its founding in 2003 Sisu is responsible for Intel's efforts in open source software across a wide range of technologies and market segments Including enterprise Linux and related technologies such as virtualization data center and cloud software Embedded market segments and client Linux programs. The center also focuses on operating system stacks Including Android and Chrome OS for Intel architecture and Yachto in addition to Linux kernel and related products User experience and web html5 technologies on top of client operating systems He sits on the board of directors at the open stack foundation as well as the open stack foundations diversity work group And is on the advisory board for the core infrastructure initiative at the Linux Foundation Imad, why are you here on this panel today? Well, I mean not to mince word. I was told to be here Yeah, so but I wouldn't pass an opportunity to talk about diversity, obviously I've We at Intel have been Have had quite a significant effort in diversity and we've been very public about it publishing all the numbers from pay numbers to To just the composition of employees and so on and and not only women women and underrepresented minorities in terms of you know Like in the US African Americans Hispanics and so on Personally, you know and in my organization the open source group. It's a fairly large division at Intel and With the with the staff at least Well more than 50% of the OTC staff and more than 50% of the the open source group engineers are managed by you know women leaders whether women vice presidents and women directors and in my group and And this is not something new. This is something that's been happening for over the path You know something like over 10 years now and and and we view that as a key aspect and a key part of You know Of having really much of the innovative ideas and much of the Being a driving force for innovation within the company In large part the result of the diversity in the organization. So And I'm always honored to be you know It's really an honor to me to be selected or asked by to be told by you know The women of open source at Intel to like hey, we wanted to go do so happy to be here Yeah, we are honored to have Okay, we're gonna launch into our first questions and again the first topic is on unconscious bias a little framing Unconscious bias in the workplace has many disguises many of you may be familiar with Micro inequities or seemingly innocuous slights that compound over time to make the environment at work Unwelcoming to women and minorities micro aggressions along the same line Personality penalties where being assertive might be interpreted as being pushy or bossy when coming from a woman stereotype and stereotype threat or the fear of Reinforcing negative stereotypes about a group that you belong to and more unconscious bias is present in workplace Practices recruiting hiring retaining and advancing employees often resulting in the Disadvantaging of women and other underrepresented groups What have been your experiences with unconscious bias in the workplace or that you have observed? Nitya, will you kick us off with this one? Absolutely, you know the tendency sometimes from an unconscious bias perspective is to assume that the only woman in the room will take notes or Will do the housekeeping for some you know and and do those kinds of jobs and It's it's a hard one to it's basically stereotyping isn't it or or assuming things It's also quite evident that sometimes we tend to use those shortcuts or schemas or our view of people To assume that either they cannot travel on business because they have small children Or to assume that you know they have other things to do And so they may not be interested in an opportunity or an assignment and that kind of precludes them from being included I was just going to build a little bit on that. I mean it strikes me how those assumptions really pervade and they come in so many different flavors, so There's the common assumption that if you're a female that you may be a project manager Or that you're involved in UI and UX design. We talked about that a little bit in the in the conference earlier today It I enjoy walking around with some of my really great engineers that happen to be female and Watch them, you know put people in their place when that subtle bias starts to come out because it I Think as a white male it is I worry about what biases I carry with me And I think everybody carries some biases with them for me It's a little bit about being conscious of them and and putting I don't know if controls is the right word But maybe compensating practices in place to help offset some of those biases Don't we're coming at you unconscious bias. Yeah, I think what what is fascinating to me is that some of the traits That are seen as favorable and men with you know being kind of more aggressive and maybe kind of steering or driving and Conversation can be viewed in a negative light for for women So that make they may come across as seeming pushy or overly aggressive or and when you know It's I think that's that dichotomy and that frankly that that's sort of the negative way of looking at it Which needs to be kind of reevaluated I think we come in with those unconscious biases that need to be kind of re-looked at and Question frankly, you know the other one is like some of their typical examples that I'll see is like you know who hasn't been on a Phone caller in a meeting and the most extroverted person in the room or the loudest person the room keeps talking and or talks over other people And so if you are innately a more You know a more quiet person a more introverted person that person with more dominant personality is gonna speak up And again, I think that's something that we can we see every day and you know examples of in our work environment I'm not I know Intel has been involved in this for so long And in fact when Google released its data in the summer of 2014 Intel is quick to point out We've been doing this publicly for a decade There places are there Systems in place to address unconscious bias within the organization. I think the key thing to understand about unconscious bias is that To recognize that it actually exists and most people don't and and even if they do they kind of like squint Well, you know, it really does exist and there's been so many studies, you know as recent as this past year I think there is And at all sort of levels there's this study where You know, they took the exact same resume just changed the name, you know African-American sounding name and you know, just the Anglo Sounding name and like, okay, how much how many times of which resume has been picked up and you see a huge difference between the two So and you just take this example and there's just many examples similar to this about just the very existence of the unconscious bias So so what I think the key thing to me is that and the key thing at the Intel By the way, the way we struggled with is just to make sure that everybody understand that. Yeah, this is it does exist and It's actually damaging as you pointed out at first, you know, there is the there's two aspects of diversity and inclusion There is the social justice aspect and then there is an actual business business benefit from it and there is actually and the business benefits actually significant and again there's been significant amount of studies that have been done about the the the benefits of having diverse staff and and diverse Organizations that you know at all levels whether it's a group of a dozen engineers or an organization of a thousand people so so I think getting these facts out and You know having you know people in management regardless of you know Whether they're male or female or African-American or whatever they are But having all of these people actually really understand that that there is actual damage done when you are not You know When you're not internalizing and and aware in the back of your mind like yep, you know, I may have you know Unconscious bias about these things. I mean, you know in those type of things. So I think recognizing it is really absolutely And being a social scientist I should point out There's been some new studies that have come out in the last two years showing that companies that Educate their employees about unconscious bias or diversity and inclusion and then check the box off and say, okay call it a day that these one-shot deals these one-shot trainings to Result do not result in changes unconscious bias raising to a conscious level is not accomplished with just a Meeting or a workshop. Yeah, what kinds of steps? Have you seen or experienced that take it to the next level? What's required after the unconscious bias conversation has been started? You know, I think all of these panelists said it First of all, you've got to have leaders at the top who believe that this is a change that they Want to invest in that they want to make and that the company is committed to it at all levels And and in the case of open stack foundation The diversity task force which reports into the board and as part of the board Acknowledge the fact that not only in technology is open stack diverse You know, we we need to coexist with lots of different kinds of clouds But even the people of open source and open stack need to collaborate across different companies different ecosystem different projects and and if you don't have everyone engaged Then we don't have a successful project so I think that the it needs to start from the top and then frankly the second aspect of it is and why these leaders are here is leaders need to role model that behavior and need to have a zero tolerance on bias and Need to demonstrate that that that is not accepted And and those are the two things to me which really reinforce beyond the training. You know, what should happen? Some of them are the most progressive companies We've seen actually measure their progress treating this Diversity and inclusion challenge like any other project. Have you seen any or been part of any efforts that include? Measurements of progress or descriptions. How do we know if we're making a difference? Yeah, I'll take a stab at that. So You know certainly at at EMC what what we're doing is some tangible steps And I think it was actually based on I think the two factors you mentioned There's a business aspect and there's certainly a moral and social obligation as well. I'm from a business aspect You know, there was a study done by catalyst which which I'm sure we can share with everybody That companies that employed a higher percentage of women I think they were looking at greater than 24 25 percent women in those companies were more profitable Had a higher return on investment and were more innovative, right? And so I think there's you know, you're looking for that business rationalization Which you know big companies always always look for that. There's some real tangible evidence that that occurred So I think that that's one start and that helps the leadership understand the importance of diversity and inclusion and Develop the programs around it. So again at EMC CEO level commitment to diversity and inclusion Including one of his top five of goals for the year as it become one of the top ten Companies in the world around you know that focus on diversity has a department set up specifically with a chief diversity officer and a whole department with with work streams with education with circles for the different You know different different people who want to join and really understand You know what it means so it's it's raising level of consciousness It's getting executive commitment and then with that comes that You know courage for both both sides of the equation to step up feel in a comfortable and safe environment to really participate Let me build on that a little bit as a as a consumer oriented company You know Comcast tends to think of this problem Beyond just the four walls of the workplace. So I think it's pretty well understood that economic disadvantage Disproportionately affects underrepresented parts of the population and so Comcast for example has an internet essentials program That's meant to help bridge the digital divide for those under privileged homes that can use some help give them access to the internet the same kinds of tools that You know other parts of the community have access to then you have you know You develop a pipeline of people that have access to the same infrastructure the same information and societal benefits then you have you know in my case daughters and sons that are in grade school and I Happen to believe that if you don't get people interested in science and technology early It's it's pretty easy for kids to sort of close their minds to to that adventure So Comcast is in fact this weekend one of the programs that come cast is heavily involved in the first robotics program Has their national competition. I think it's in st. Louis this weekend. So we have a number of Comcast sponsored teams where we help schools Develop their teams. They're it's like a small startup These are you know grade school and high school kids that are essentially running a small setup doing their own fundraising Having a chief marketing officer, you know They do all the stuff that's necessary to essentially culminate in this robot and a competition and trying to win You know this competition that's in st. Louis and then you have to get people into the employment pipeline keep them at the company and You know, that's that's it's not oh, it's not a one-time It's not a one-time thing or something that can only happen in a segment of someone's life I think it starts way back when they're young. Yeah mark brings up a good point Oftentimes the attention for diversity and inclusion is focused on the pipeline if we can only get more girls or minorities into it encouraging them through grade school and into the career High school major in college into the career will solve these problems. It's not enough It's not enough as we say and that brings a perfect segue. It's but it's essential at the same time It's not enough, but we have to have it a Perfect segue to our next question which has to do with the environment that the workforce That's waiting for them. It's going to be like and male advocates and allies is a new one Let me frame this one up a little bit and then pose a question to the group earlier this year NC Which is my organization released a new toolkit for companies and change leaders within them to launch male advocates and allies programs It's a topic which has been gaining momentum over the past several years is an effective way to address unconscious bias and change the environments within Workplaces there are several questions that I want to ask about this But first let's start with a generic one. What have been your experiences with male advocacy now? I'm asking male advocates a lot except for you that yeah, of course Yeah, what have been your experiences with it, but are your companies moving out on an industry enterprise level? Initiative with male advocacy. Is it more of an individual choice? Have you seen successes? Have you seen challenges? Yeah, I mean yeah, we I mean I think that we've had male advocacy program for a while and it does work and and But I I Want to go back to the previous topic if you would allow me if just just one quick comment But like what should companies do and so on and I think the first thing and one of probably the most important thing is establishing and publishing metrics publicly, you know and Because if you do not do that It's very very difficult to see if you're making progress And if you're not accountable to your customers and shareholders and to the public and it's just like there is nothing really holding you back so But back to your male advocacy. Yeah, I mean it's it absolutely works. It's you know, it exists at Intel, you know and But it's I mean but there is more to it. I mean I think My reluctance usually from these type of programs is that they they could be used as well There is this program and this program and it's really everybody's responsibility And you know, so that's why the continuous education and you know having the metrics and publishing those metrics is really what you know Moves the moves the ball forward on this. I was just going to mention that I Don't think we have a program labeled male advocacy, but I think I understand the concept and for me I Appreciated the problem of in particular gender under representation In the organizations that I've run so I try to go and take you know Special steps to ensure that whenever there's an organizational structure change or whenever there's an economic impact on employees Compensation that I do sort of a second level of review to make sure that the right kind of thought unbiased thought has gone into the planning of those changes That's just a tangible real-world thing that I as somebody in a position of power Can influence? Directly without a big program without a lot of support from the organization We have parts of our team that experiment with the double-blind resume where you have it and an Anonymized resume they get sent around to figure out you know whether we want to bring someone in for it for an in-person interview We haven't figured out how to Anonymize the in-person interview yet But maybe someone more innovative than I can can come up with that idea. No, that's excellent I you know in our work at NC wit as social scientists We're finding that the most successful male advocacy programs aren't advocating for Individual women rather they advocate for an environment that's inclusive and benefits men as well as women and incidentally mark I heard on NPR. Maybe some of you as well. There is a company an innovative company out there working to anonymize interviews by Giving the the CIA protected witness interview person. The funny thing was though when they distort the person's voice It's distorted to sound like a man's So there could be some room for for input there But what do what are the kinds of things that you've seen or done yourself that male advocates do that? Seem to be effective or promising and I'll ask the opposite question at the same time Are there any things you've seen male advocates do that were really the wrong choice because we can learn from those kinds of things as Well, what do they do effectively? What do they do? That's not okay Can I comment on a couple of people that are my favorite advocates in the company and and very often what happens is There are many many well-intentioned men Very well-intentioned managers who want to get involved, but very often they don't know what to do and and it's a it's a It's a tough situation because they don't want to appear to kind of rescue you or dive catch But at the same time they want to speak up for you And and and do something about it So so when we created the women's innovation network board at Sandisk We specifically made sure that we had men on the board as much as we had women because we wanted to hear their Perspectives and they wanted to they both expressed a desire to understand walk in our shoes Understand what we go through at work and then and and they speak up for us in meetings and behind closed doors and champion the cause and and somehow because They're coming from a different perspective and they are in meetings where we are not We are able to get much more coverage of the issue than we normally would have and one last point I'm so proud of this and I know a number of the women of open stacker here from a metrics Perspective, we've really improved the metrics of open stack We were at 11 percent women at the open stack show in Japan and today we are 12 percent for this show And we've come a long way. I think it used to be five six percent At open stacks, so that's huge metrics and huge progress. Yeah male advocates and what they do When we look at at successful strategies in a researche way we're looking at the impacts of their advocacy in terms of Retention of course the head count how many women are retained in which divisions how many women are promoted But are there are other ways that the environment has changed beyond the numbers You know that male advocates can really advocate for we found some evidence This is related to why people are male advocates and you guys said earlier why you are on this panel But have you had any experience with with other men? Why are they choosing to become you know Most diversity panels that I've sat on don't include so many white guys sitting up here You know, I think it's encouraging that it does because it's a symbol that this is being supported And it's an everyone's issue not a women's issue. Yeah, I think I'll take that one I think you know for me personally. I think it's an important issue to me personally I'd say personally and professionally I think From a professional level I've had some some excellent male and female mentors And and folks that have provided guidance to me And I think I've said a good example in fact or in my direct chain of command very strong female leader Who is really kind of exemplified what it what I think it means to be a strong leader in a large company And so I've sort of tried to model some my behavior off of her from a personal level also You know again commenting about the daughters I think for me it even spans back to to my grandmother who was a Holocaust survivor and and you know had that that optimism and strength to survive during that kind of an experience and actually even You know gave birth to my mother in a in a concentration camp. So that kind of strength and Fortitude carried over to her and her life and and I'm seeing it in my daughters And so I want to kind of continue projecting that positive image of Optimism and strength and perseverance and sort of the ability to go through anything my young my oldest daughter has Crohn's disease right now, and so I'm seeing her kind of struggle with some of the same Issues of how do I how do I say strong and positive and all this and and yet I can also see kind of that genetic lineage You know occurring in her strength in it. So for me it's both personal and professional and I think it's something that as I try to either mentor or sponsor or Just be a sounding board for any of my colleagues whether they be male or female or other minorities Just to be that that open-minded ear and help guide them particularly if they are uncertain of themselves given You know some of the unconscious biases that we're talking about So yeah, I try to provide that and and the other thing is recognition. I think Recognizing for the sake of their own work not necessarily taking credit for work that someone's done for you or around you And are being compelled to ensure that they're getting their recognition. They deserve Whether they're getting it or not. I think is important Nietzsche you've got the unique experience here. Have you ever been witness to or experience personally the benefits or the opposite some downfalls of male advocacy efforts that have succeeded or or not absolutely, I think there are two or three examples I can think of one was so there was this person in our team this man who was leaving early and So the boss said to him Why are you leaving early and he said to go pick up the kids? And so his boss says to him isn't that your wife's job to do that and We were all kind of really shocked that that he said this but we didn't know how to Call him on it and and interestingly enough another male colleague called him on it and said come on guys This is night, you know 2016 and we all our parents and we all have responsibilities To go pick up our kids and I'm glad he did that because that really changed completely the perception of You know this manager and how he behaved and in a way that benefits it benefited everyone Exactly. Yeah, so that's that's a great example And and the other example is just one of my colleagues going to Grace Hopper and then being surrounded by you know 7,000 women and and really experiencing what it feels like for a woman to be in a tech conference and You know experiencing the opposite and walking in our shoes and really immersing himself in the issues that we care about having Men white men increasingly Asian men in the tech sector Opportunities to have experiences themselves as a minority is a strategy Some companies use and simulation or in other ways to try and get them to have personal insights into these kinds of things so Very effective. We have around 15 minutes left before we're opening it up for audience questions So keep your questions in mind if you've got some and I want to shift gears only slightly to the topic of Intersectionality which has to do with Male advocacy of course and unconscious bias. Let me frame this one up a little bit Intersectionality is a term. We're increasingly become familiar with through The press and certainly through the blogs in the industry It is the idea that we are each of us plurality We all have multiple identities as I like to point out. This is not a disorder. This is normal human behavior We have different identities and often we are told to bring our best self to work and Those companies that realize we need to bring our best selves to work are the ones that are more inclusive They are the ones that recognize that each of us have different roles different hats that we wear in life How do we activate? Intersectionality, how do we use it to our advantage to increase diversity innovation the things we've been talking about How do we use it to confront unconscious bias and I'll mention one other thing We know that employees employers and employees who occupy more than one minority category For example being a woman and being African-American being a woman and being Hispanic Confronts them with multiple biases Right. They are compounded and so these people are even more Underrepresented in our industry in tech as well as in other industries their challenges are compounded. Are there any? special programs initiatives or experiences that you've had that address Multiple biases or the idea of intersectionality Mark, that's a tough one. I know I saved it for last. I'm not sure I can cite one that I'm familiar with You guys I mean, I know individuals, you know to be a Hispanic woman and so on but Yeah, I you know The way I mean my personal experience is what you said is a bit overstated. Please. I think I think the My experience has been is that there tends to be an overwhelming One overwhelming single bias, you know, so for example in any specific environment so let's say, you know 10 engineers and You know nine males one female that it the male female becomes the bias versus, you know Hispanic one Hispanic versus, you know and so on but I think typically it is there is one Overpowering bias. I haven't haven't I can't I can't remember Like what it's something like this would look like maybe the closest thing that we have is that we created this concept of circles Right and so there's a there's a women's circle and there's I think at EMC We have something like 12 or 15 different circles And so there there are specific minority groups circles for them. So there's probably Intersections within those I'm assuming I've attended a couple of them So that's probably the closest thing that we have To something that probably addresses intersectionality because I'm assuming some of those discussions probably range across those Yes, absolutely according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Well, we have 15 to 20 percent of the technical workforce currently occupied by women If you look at women who are also black or Hispanic that number drops to around four percent So clearly there's an issue of multiple biases there. It may be that there's an overriding bias that's gender-related Compounded yes, please explain what you mean. Yeah, but I don't think I mean this becomes a Statistical issue. Yes. Yes, not really it just compounded problem. Yes, I mean you just happen to be a woman that happened to be African-American you're like, okay, so But I don't think it's it's specific to like an African-American woman by itself brings up that maybe I'm not sure At the end of the day, you've got to listen you've got to understand and walk in their shoes and Then see what what are the biases that they face and solve for that as an organization And a solution isn't going to necessarily be targeted at any particular subcategory or group It that's why I think the the solution is an environmental solution an environment of inclusion an environment that supports diversity as opposed to as you said trying to support individuals or perhaps small groups well tiny back to our male advocacy thing and Male advocates who are in the room today What is it that male advocates need to know to support that kind of environment? What do they need to know about intersectionality or any of the other things? How do we prepare? They have the desire, right? They've motivated professionally or personally as Dorian pointed out to become male advocates But what do they need to know is intersectionality part of that or is there other priorities to help them be successful? I know we are running out of time because we have to wrap up And it's 520 so I think that the most the best thing we can do is to give them practical Steps that they can take in everyday situations, especially managers because the manager employee relationship is the most important So things like how to run a most effective meeting how to prevent interruptions How to prevent someone from stealing ideas or not acknowledging the other person or how to pull out a quiet person in the room And and have them being included in the conversation So I'd say practical steps that they can take in everyday meetings and promotional discussions and recruitment, etc What would be the right thing to do? Did we have an audience question? Please step to a microphone. Yes one last question So Michael Schultz with Microsoft first of all, thank you for having this conversation. It's great Actually give it up for these guys But while it is great that we are talking about Diversity inclusion and some what seed sometimes Interchanged as being the same what one is being invited to the party of one is being asked to dance What I'm a bit concerned about is that it oftentimes what I see more and more is in this conversation We're stopping at gender we may include rates Where is the conversation about disability people with disabilities are not really Included in this conversation. So what are your thoughts about that? The ageism as well Yes, yes, there are a number of factors that we have not yet addressed with the same Amount of sunlight as we have with the gender issue and yet the psychological phenomenon in play are often similar Any comments from a panel? No, I mean I thought I mean yeah, I think it's I think it starts and African Americans I think it's yeah, I think it is the big D. It's the big I Absolutely, that's what we're all aiming towards. It's creating the big tent where everyone is included everyone is valued Everyone's contribution is appreciated. That's what we're aiming for the biggest constituency that that we wanted to attack first At least this panel wanted to look at was gender diversity because we're 50 50 But then we have to go beyond that. I think attacking gender diversity also Really lifts all boats frankly and it creates a better environment for all cultures and and handicapped and other Areas as well I think this hits to the heart of intersectionality because we're talking about the ways we differ and an environment as Mark points out that Supports those differences and embraces them is what we're all after my thanks to each of our panelists to our audience and those Of you who just got the snippet at the end. Thank you for coming and have a great conference. Thank you