 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I'm Paranjoy Gohar Thakurtha. I'm sitting at one Jurbagh, the residence of Kapil Sibal, Rajya Sabha, Member of Parliament, former Union Minister. Thank you very much Kapilji for giving us your time. On the 9th of April, you had a press conference and you put out what is supposed to be a sting operation where you showed that he was a field officer of the Research and Analysis Wing, part of the Cabinet Secretariat, and he is suggesting that there was a huge scandal involving demonetization. Before we come to the specifics of the scandal, why do you think major, large sections of the media completely note this press conference? I think they must have been given a call by the PMO and that's the procedure that the PMO follows. And this has happened not just in that press conference, it happens in other press conferences as well. Whenever there is something that should, which according to the powers that be, should not be put out in the public domain, they take other measures. Why would even say a television channel like NDTV, newspapers like the Indian Express, or even Times of India, they're not exactly subservient to the present regime, why would they just completely ignore? I mean, it's a separate matter that they can comment and say, we don't agree with what was said. No, but in the Hindi channel, Hindi newspapers carried it out. That's right. Even the Hindu carried it. Even the Hindu carried it, but why they did not carry it? You know, I can't possibly comment on that. As in the case of your earlier, the earliest thing operation in London when we were present on the whole? No, before this, there was another thing that the opposition got together and pointed out about and showed a sting in Gujarat. Remember, this is part, apparently, of one sting operation, but it has several parts. The first one was Kwe Gujarat. That sting shows a gentleman going into the Kamalam office. Kamalam office is the BJP headquarters in Annabad. He goes into that office, he walks into that office, comes out with a stroller, and then takes the, apparently, the journalist who did the sting in his car to an office where you have a photograph of the Amit Shah and a photograph of the Prime Minister. Then in the course of his conversation, he is counting 2,000 crisp notes in a machine, which he's taking out of his drawers. And in the meantime, he is talking about demonetization. He says, look, you can, why are you just wanting to exchange five crores? You can even exchange 50 crores or 100 crores wherever you want in Bombay or anywhere else. And then he says, then when the sting journalist asks him that, look, the commission that you are charging is too much because he's asking for 40%. So five crores, if you give in the old 500 and 1,000 currency notes, you get back three crores. Three and two remains. Right, two remains. So that's the 40%. So the journalist is saying to him, but you know, this is too much. He said, what can we do? We have to share it with people at the top. Mr. Sibal, even this video was not shown. It's mind-boggling. What you're suggesting is mind-boggling. It's three lakh crores, 300,000 crores. And you're saying this money was printed outside India. It was brought to India to the Air Force base in Hindon. That's what he says. And then, I mean, you're saying there are 60, oh, sorry, 26 departments. That's what he says. No, no, he says there are 26 such field assistants who are doing this, 22 are men and four are women. That's what he says. Look, let's move away from what happened in Hindon because that's something that is not shown on television. That's not shown in this thing. That's a statement. But what is shown is the actual stand in the Ministry of Maharashtra Industrial Development. M-I-D-C. M-I-D-C. Maharashtra Industrial Development. That shows the actual transaction. M-Right. Now, forget about that. The next day, the Cabinet Secretariat issued a statement saying that this perhaps you don't know about it. It said that this gentleman was employed with them and was in the service of the government for five years. M-You're talking about Rahul Ratharikar. M-Ratharikar. Rahul Ratharikar. They accept he was in the Cabinet Secretariat, served them for five years. And in 2017, he was dismissed for service on suspicion that he was actually doing these exchange transactions. M-Are you suggesting that this person was complicit in the whole racket? M-No, that only shows that this thing is genuine. No, no, no. The fact that they have issued the statement that he was involved in these transactions and he was dismissed from service shows that this thing is genuine. And that raises very serious issues. It's almost unbelievable that the President of the Bharati Janta Party, Mr. Amit Shah, should have master-minded an operation that involves the Air Force, the Reserve Bank of India, the Maharashtra Industrial Development Corporation, some foreign parties, Indus in Bank, his manager in Bombay. M-Let's assume it is not master-minded. Let's assume nobody master-minded it. But the transactions happened. You're seeing them on television. They're seeing them in the video. And these transactions couldn't have been done without the collaboration of bankers and the Reserve Bank of India, somebody in the Reserve Bank of India, right? You know the persons who did the transactions. You know the employee of the Government of India was part of that transaction, which has now been accepted. M-You have named one person, the manager of Indus in Bank, the Ford branch, Sanjay Shani. But other than Rahul Rathrekar and Sanjay Shani, we don't know the other guys. We don't know who in the Reserve Bank of India. M-Who else? Somebody has to investigate it, no? M-Your political opponents in the Bharati Yantapati say the credibility of this sting operation of these videos are enough. M-They should arrest the man and find out. They have not even lodged an FIR. M-No. If you recall, some weeks ago, you were in London at a press conference and there was this person who claimed he was associated with ECIL, the Government Body, Electronics Corporation of India Limited, suggesting that the electronic voting machines could be rigged and manipulated. Then the ECIL issued a statement saying, we don't know anybody by this name. This is all cooked up. M-I don't know. See, whether that gentleman was telling the truth, was not telling the truth. I mean, how can I vouch for that because I only happen to be a spectator. This is a sting that is happening in front of your eyes. We know the people who are involved. We know the names of the persons. We know the place where it happened. M-You also know the person who did the sting operation? M-How would I know? This is on a website. M-It just came to you. Or somebody drew your attention to it. M-Yes, to NN.world and apparently this is hours of tape. The fact that the Government of India has not even lodged an FIR, not even arrested the man, and they say that they dismissed him on grounds of suspicion. You don't dismiss a man on the grounds of suspicion. What was the suspicion? What were the facts collated? Did you issue a show cause notice to him? What are the facts in the show cause? We know none of that. M-This person is alleging that Mr. Amit Shah was involved. All we know in the past, thanks to information received under the Right to Information Act, that state cooperative banks, there was one cooperative bank. In Gujarat too, actually Rajkot and Amitabad state cooperative bank. And in one of them, Mr. Amit Shah used to be a director. And these two banks had exchanged the maximum number of currency notes in that brief period of time, from the 8th of November till for a few 7 or 8. It means nothing. Paranjai, let me just ask you one question. Is there any rich person in this country who didn't get his money changed? Is there any person in this country who had cash with him, which was unaccounted for, complained? M-They're all scared of complaining. Paranjai-And it must be what's lakhs and crores of rupees were exchanged. Nobody complained. And the bankers must have, they couldn't be done without the bankers. M-No, yeah. After demonetization, you've accused bankers, not due means the BJP is saying certain bankers took bribes to exchange notes. Paranjai-What certain bankers? Has any rich man complained or worried about his money? Everybody changed it. I mean, it's an open secret. We all know about it. Now, how could this happen without the government knowing about it, the bankers knowing about it, the reserve bank knowing about it? And who would have benefited? Only those who were in power. So this needs investigation. M-So all you're suggesting to the government that investigate whether this... Paranjai-First of all, you should have arrested people by now. Now, the gentleman who is in the Gujarat tape, they would know it's photograph is there, they would know who he is, they could have easily found him. He has a wall of, wall of 2000 rupees notes, a wall. Please look at that video. M-And it's all available in the public. Paranjai-It's all available. So why have they not found that man by now? M-You think it's deliberate? Paranjai-No, I don't know whether it's deliberate or not. I mean, it's... I can only speculate. M-You are speculating that demonetization instead of curbing black money, according to you, is the biggest money laundering... Paranjai-The biggest scam in the history of India, biggest money laundering enterprise, the history of India, and who benefited from it became very rich. M-And the people who suffered were the poor? Paranjai-Absolutely. M-Women and... Paranjai-The poor who earned their money... M-Daily wages. Paranjai-Daily wages, their money was not unaccounted. M-Small traders, shopkeepers... Paranjai-They are the ones who... M-They are the ones who complained. The rich never complained. Paranjai-So if Mr. Amit Shah really has all this huge war chest, then, you know, it's all going to be utilized in the run-up. M-We saw it immediately in the UP election after demonetization. M-Remember, who had the money in the UP election? Only one political party. Paranjai-No, they still have the money. They've been in power to find that. M-You know, at that time, I said... Paranjai-Once upon a time, your party had all the money. M-That's right. Fine, that's fine. Certainly. The question is that who, after demonetization, who had the money? They couldn't have got the money because under the law, you couldn't have exchanged notes. You remember that? After 31st of December, no such transaction could be done. These snippets show that transactions were done from January 1, 2016. M-All the way till very recently. Paranjai-2018. And the percentages of commission went up, I believe, went up to 90%. M-You mean people were willing to pay 90% or, you know, to get their old notes converted into... Paranjai-Well, why is that? At least you get 10%. If nothing is, at least 10%. M-Nobody. If you instead engage the services of a person to stand in queue in front of a bank, you could... Paranjai-That could have been done only prior to 31st of December. It couldn't have been done after that. M-So this is the word after? Paranjai-These are all afterwards. And before 31st of December, you can only put in X amount of money. M-Correct. Paranjai-Not beyond that, as you know, and could only withdraw a certain amount. M-Okay, my last question to you. Why are you the only person who's talking about it? Why hasn't Mr. Rahul Gandhi talked about it? Why haven't other leaders of the Congress Party gone to town in the elections? Paranjai-Let me put it, place one fact before you. Since I did the press conference two days ago, from the AICC itself, the total viewership is 4,44,000. M-Of that, your press conference? Paranjai-No, no. It's 2,25, already. It's the biggest, I mean, in terms of the reach, there's never been such a reach of any press conference. And it's in WhatsApp groups, people are now realizing. M-Despite the fact that a very large section of the so-called mainstream media has pretended you never had a press conference. Paranjai-Absolutely. That such a thing never happened. This is all the figment of the imagination. The people on the video are non-persons. And the cash shown out there is not cash at all, it's some synthetic material that people have manipulated. So let me suggest that a lot of people are very unhappy that the Congress is unwilling to come together with other opposition parties to put up a united front against the Bharti Janta Party in Uttar Pradesh, in Delhi, and in Bengal, among other places. Paranjai-First of all, I think that's a very unfair criticism. Remember, if you really look back, all our coalition partners who were with us in 2014 are all with us, plus more. M-This is the UPA coalition. Paranjai-I'm talking about the UPA. In other words, we've retained all our partners, whether it's NCP in Maharashtra, or it's in Kerala, or it's anywhere else in the country. We have retained all our coalition partners, plus added one, that is the JDS in Karnataka. So that's an addition. Now, neither Mayawati nor Achilles, who were part of the coalition, nor was AAP a part of the coalition. In fact, AAP was responsible for the decline of the UPA. Primarily. M-Because of the India against corruption. Paranjai-Primarily responsible, right? M-I don't know, you're giving him a lot of credit. Paranjai-Now you say, no, it is true, because they are the one who brought Anna Hazare, they are the one who abused us, they are the one who made allegations against individual ministers. Of course, later they apologized, saying that these allegations were not true. But be that as it may, they were responsible for it. Now, let's talk about Uttar Pradesh. A leader of a party in Uttar Pradesh says that if we give you X number of seats with us, you will have to give us seats all over India. Paranjai-You're talking about Ms. Mayawati. Paranjai-And in any case, I don't want to have a coalition. I will announce my seats. They already announced their candidates. Then they, and said, we have left two seats for you. Is that the conduct of a party? Paranjai-You're suggesting that though like the Bahujan Samaj Party, the Samajwadi Party, they weren't willing to go in for... Paranjai-I'm not suggesting anything. If you please do not blame the Congress Party. I don't want to put, I don't want to blame anybody. But when you say that we are not willing to go into an arrangement with these people, then you know as you say, you can only clap with two hands. So therefore, let's not blame the Congress. We have retained all our coalition partners plus. Paranjai-Let's talk about Raul Gandhi standing from Vyarnad and Kerala. Why a place where both the parties, both the Congress and the CPM, the UDF and the LDF are together with the Congress in wanting the Bharti Janta Party. They're opposing the Bharti Janta Party. Paranjai-I think there's a motive to it. There's a political motive to it that Raul Gandhi wishes to, I think, send out a message that is not just the North, right? I embrace everybody in the country and I also am willing to represent the South. It's a political message. It's not meant, and he said that he will not make any statements. Paranjai-He said he won't make any statement against the left. Paranjai-I think it's a political message. It's very well taken and it has a positive impact for the Congress Party in the South. But may I suggest that whether it be Uttar Pradesh, whether it be Kerala, whether it be Bengal, whether it be Delhi, by not presenting a united front, the opposition, you're going to actually help the Bharti Janta Party. Paranjai-You know, we'll see what the outcome of that is, quite frankly. The recent elections that have taken place in 90 seats, which went to the polls just yesterday. I think the feedback we have is that the BJP has not been benefited. Paranjai-We'll have to wait till after the 23rd. Tell me, on the electoral bonds issue again, your party has not been shouting and screaming as much as many others. Paranjai-No, no, no. We completely, we think it's not a transparent process at all. And in fact, there can be a lot of round tripping in bringing in money through the electoral bonds. I know that the Supreme Court has said that you'll have to disclose everything, how much money you've paid, who has paid it. Paranjai-The party doesn't know. I personally think that's a judgment which, of course, have asked the parties to disclose. The parties don't know. Paranjai-No, no. Suppose a person A has gone to the State Bank of India, filled up the forms, know your customer, the State Bank knows that Mr. So-and-so has paid, or company So-and-so has paid this much. But then, whether you paid it to the Congress or the BJP or some other party, Paranjai-He doesn't know. Paranjai-The party supports you, no? Paranjai-No. How is it? No. You get to only go and get the bond. You get the money. Paranjai-But then if you match the figures which the State Bank of India has with the returns and the- Paranjai-The names will not be revealed. Paranjai-But the party, when it files its returns before the election- Paranjai-You'll only say this electoral bond gave me this much of money, but he will not know who the person is. Paranjai-Because that's what is kept confidential. Unless, of course, the government has access to the State Bank. Paranjai-No, but the State Bank of India, according to what is known, the State Bank of India is supposed to put up all this information to the central depository. And we know. We know who's the own, I mean, the- Paranjai-That's right. You can have access to it, but under the law, it's meant to be confidential. So when the court says the political party must reveal, how will the political party reveal as to who gave the donation? Paranjai-And besides all this information will come out after the election all over. Paranjai-Absolutely. Paranjai-So you believe this whole Supreme Court decision has not been- Paranjai-No, I think that Supreme Court gave the reason. This is a very weighty matter and it involves a full argument. But of course the point is that the damage is done and when the damage is done, you can't put back the clock. Paranjai-On the Rafale review petition, do you expect anything to come out before the elections? I mean, we know the Supreme Court, the judges of the Supreme Court, the honorable judges have the discretion to hear these when they want to. Paranjai-That too is a weighty matter. Paranjai-But at least- Paranjai-Every matter. Paranjai-Complex matter. Paranjai-But at least the Supreme Court has acknowledged that the documents which are out in the media, in the Hindu, in the wire, in various other places, in Newsklake, in Caravan, that these are documents. So what if they were quote-unquote stolen or photocopied? Paranjai-I think it's a very important principle established. Paranjai-That these should be considered. Paranjai-The principle established is, and that's Justice Joseph's judgment in particular mentions it, that the public interest in matters of corruption and exposing corruption far outweighs issues of security, especially when deans of this nature, which gives you an indication that if there is corruption in defense deans, then documents which are sought to be protected on grounds of, under the official secrets act, will not be protected. Paranjai-That the- Paranjai-Because it's more important to expose corruption. Paranjai-And the right to information act in a sense prevails over the older colonial era. Paranjai-That's correct. Paranjai-Okay. Paranjai-And I think that's a salutary principle and we must congratulate the Supreme Court for that. Paranjai-Okay. Paranjai-Last question, how to sometimes reconcile your role as a high profile lawyer with your avatar as a politician? And I'll come specifically. There are two industrialists that Mr. Rahul Gandhi, the President of the Indian National Congress, has been attacking as cronies of the present regime. And correct me if I'm wrong, one of them is Anil Ambani and the other is Mr. Gautam Adani. Paranjai-Now these are industrialists at different points of time. In your avatar as a lawyer, you fought cases on that. Paranjai-Why different? I mean actually I knew Dhirubhai Ambani much before I knew the children. And my relationship goes back, long back. Now the question is on Rafel, I am attacking. Paranjai-So it doesn't matter whether in the past you were- Paranjai-He should have a problem. Paranjai-He should have a problem. Paranjai-He should have a problem. Paranjai-That in the past you were his lawyer. Paranjai-No, no, that even now, politically, I attacked the Rafel deal. Paranjai-Right? Paranjai-He should have it. Paranjai-Anil, Anil, my friend should have a problem. Paranjai-But he doesn't have a problem. Paranjai-We must segregate issues. Paranjai-It is the integrity of the lawyer. Paranjai-Okay. Paranjai-Namally that where something is wrong, we will not defend it. Paranjai-But where something wrong is being done to the person, we will defend it. Paranjai-Are you hopeful that the Modi government is going to be voted out of power? Paranjai-I pray. I hope my prayers are answered. Paranjai-Thank you so much, Mr. Sebel for giving us your time. Thank you very much.