 Hi Paris. Hello everyone. Hi. Hello, hello. Can you hear me now? I can totally hear you. This time with video. Okay. How is everyone today? Yesterday still. I'm still on the light. Did I go to bed? Like, I'm like, is it still yesterday? Wait, that's where I am right now. I did go to bed, by the way, but it's still like, it just feels like round hog day. It's just like. The whole, I think like all of after cube gun, like, what has it been two weeks or something? I don't know. I don't know. What's going on right now? Yeah, just point me where I need to be. Thank goodness there's calendars. I was going to mention too, I've got to drop at the half for the sig architecture meeting. But yeah, my only meetings for the day are three meetings happening at the same time. So that's cool. Well, let's keep this short then because there is there is another meeting that is a very spicy that I could go to as well. Not that spicy though, but another kind of spicy. So it's definitely potentially spicy. Yeah, I know. So I'm like, that's spicy. But anyway, hello, Catherine. Sorry for our small talk. So let's two minutes in. I'm a feeling this is thought this is the crowd we're going to get. Because I know Carolyn's on vacation. I think April's not feeling well. Oh, no, that's not April's gone. Hey, Dawn. Hello. So let's just kick things off. Hold up. Let me lazy link the agenda, which is really nothing right now. So please put agenda topics on. There we go. More and more people. People joining us. Hi there. Hi everyone. Hey. Oh, one second y'all. Somebody is emailing me about something extremely on fire. Live, live work from home. Yes. All right. Sorry. Back. It's a practical Welcome everyone. Now that we have a good mass of folks here. Let's see. Karen's in the house. Dawn's in the house. Oh, you're good. I don't know if I this is my first meeting in a while. I don't know if you've been here before if you'd like to introduce yourself in a second. When we get kick things started, that would be awesome. But I did include the agenda in chat if you just joined and don't have that. Let me link again. And let's go. I got it. There we go. Oh, you got it. Yep. And just put your pop your name on that doc. If you have anything that you would like to talk about today, feel free to include. Otherwise, this will most likely be a shorter meeting than our use. But anyway, let's go. So who put maintainer circle was that the Yeah, I was gonna say was that Steven the anonymous unicorn. All right. Everybody for some reason in the doc is anonymous now. So I was like, all right, we've got a lot of animals here today. All right. So before we get started, though, don't forget be kind. We do have a small crew. It's only six of us today. So feel free to interject. That's fine. And like I said, if you have any other topics to share, feel free to put them on the agenda. So far we've got maintainer circle cadence question mark and contributor ladder template. Please review. All right. What would you like to say about maintainer circle, Steven? That was just to you up. Oh, that was like team me up for for an update. No fair as tea. So good news is I have a fish weed officially have a thing on December 17th at 1030, which is our next scheduled meeting. We have a speaker lined up. I kind of want to take the recording off, honestly, because I kind of want a little be a little surprised in the light. I don't know. I'll tell you all in DMs later. How about that? Because one of the maintainer is some one of the maintainers is going to give a personal story and it's going to be a little fireside chat and it will be very lovely. And then we're also going to have a and I can tell you this is fine. It's either going to be a researcher from the University of San Diego or Jen who gave the burnout talk at cube con just recently. I don't know if y'all saw Jen's talk, but either Jen or a woman named Heather, I believe, from University of San Diego. And she does false research for burnout as well as other kinds of occupational things like occupational mental health situations. So she actually has a lot of data. She's done a lot of data with Wikipedia. So that's we're pretty much set up to run on December 17th. I just need to get one of those two folks to confirm. And then the other one that confirms later is actually going to get set up for a future meetup. So good news. As soon as one of them confirms, I'm going to get the registration information out to the maintainers list. So we're talking about the maintainers at private CNCF lists. I worry that not many people read that though. So we probably are going to have to do a round of slack and getting out to our networks and stuff like that. I don't necessarily want to tweet about this. There are still like antitrust laws that we have to abide by for instance. So having private meetings and having private slack channels and stuff like that is not necessarily the greatest thing. However, if we still do a public agenda and things like that, then we can still have a semi-closed group for personal dialogue and things like that. Because that's really what the intention is here, is the more personal connections that we can make as maintainers. I think that's really it right now. There is a PR in, I know Stephen has commented on it and a few other people have commented on it. I have not done the changes yet. I will do that today though. That will be a thing. But I really, really, I'm like, I'm stressing that I really want to get the registration out by tomorrow. However, I also wanted to talk to y'all about the registration process and what you thought about a registration process. The reason why I'm asking is I'm like starting to talk myself out of the registration process for this just because I feel like that's just another thing that a maintainer needs to fill out. Like another form if you will. But at the same time, this is a group of people that want personal discussions with other maintainers with CNCF projects. So there still is this kind of gate. So anyway, I wanted to hear what y'all thought about that. Because I was thinking we could just do a, are you coming in the maintainer circle Slack channel? And people could just emoji react and then I'll have an idea of how many people are coming. It's not like I have to know the exact numbers anyway. What do y'all think? Now I'm opening it up. Registration. So I would, I would say that yeah, Slack is, is fine. But I think, you know, shooting out an email too is probably cool, right? If people are on. Oh, yeah, no, that's, that's definitely the worst. I just mean, as far as like actual, like they have to respond back to us part of that registration. Like I'm talking myself out of their response back is what I'm saying. Like I'm, I'm talking myself into just saying calm, pretty much. I mean, if there are no restrictions on the call, then there's nothing to stop people from coming if they have the information, right? So, so I think that's probably fine. I don't, I don't see why there needs to be heavy restrictions on registration. Any other thoughts on that? Don, what about you? You're good with this and Karen? I don't know that I have any specific thoughts. I mean, I think since we're just kicking off maintainer circle, I feel like we can try a few things and see, see what works. I don't know that we need any like big formal process. Like you said, it doesn't really matter how many people show up. We can, we can give it a try and see, see what works. And if it, if it doesn't work, we can tweak it from there. Yeah. I mean, my thing is I just don't necessarily want just like end users showing up to hang out with, with maintainers or, and like, you know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. Because it really is about the bonds of these people and also them telling like more personal leadership type stories. So, yeah. Anyway, all right. Let's do no reg Karen, near you in agreement with no reg. Yeah. I mean, Alyssa, there's like clearly something you need to send out to people beforehand for communication reasons. I don't think you need to register anyone. Okay, cool. All right. Let's go. Let's roll. So I'm, I'm like looking at my study looking at my email right now because I'm expecting to confirm back for one of these two folks. So yeah, we're definitely going to have this out. I would love for y'all to look and approve of the copy before that goes out. So I'll either copy and paste that into an issue or in the Slack. So if y'all could take a peek, give me an LGTM, that would be lovely. And that's pretty much it for maintainer circle. And then let's see here, that leaves us with a cadence question mark. I think we had some questions about that since maintainer circle is taking one of the slots. Yeah. So the shush Slack. So the, so one question about maintainer circle is like, should we be doing recruiting as well, starting to seed some more of the sessions with presenters? And cadence wise, yeah, I think you mentioned monthly on the PR. But do we want to do the monthly or replanting on doing the alternating week thing? I'm fine with either personally. I was thinking, I was thinking, I was thinking kind of like the every other, but if there happened to be a third Thursday in that month, then it would just be a regular meeting. So that's why I was just thinking of the monthly unless, unless like, you know, we decide that like it's a very popular thing and we need like, you know, like the circle grows or whatever, then we can change it. But so I'm just thinking monthly to start, however, it would be every other week for us with the exception of, oh, it's an odd week. So we still have our meta meeting. Okay. I'm also open to the other suggestions. So like, if you think that there, if you want to go every other week and then some months we have to maintainer circle, I'm also okay with that. We, I think if we start off monthly, like at least we'll get some data flowing in about, is it, is it good bad? Do we need to tweak? Do we need to do it more often, right? And then we can adjust afterwards. Yeah, for sure. Does this meet, do you think this meeting needs to be weekly for us to keep moving at the pace that we're moving? Right now? No. I don't, I don't think so. Okay. Unless people feel differently. Because I mean, I feel like that's what the sub project meetings have been kind of helping out with as well as giving that buffer of movement. All right. And then I think Karen's got that contributor ladder template, right? Yes, I finally finished it. So this is the template that I've been working on. That will use us for contributor ladder. It's kind of just a skeleton. So if you all can take a moment to review and comment, that'd be helpful. I don't know. We're not doing it now, right? No, I'm just pretty much, I'm just looking at it and showing other feats. If you want to do, we can, I mean, we have time if we want to, if you want to talk it out. Otherwise, we can just do a silent review offline. But if you wanted to talk anything out, or if you had any other questions, let me know. I'm just surfing otherwise. Cool. Okay. I'll just talk to it really quickly. So as you can see, we broke it down into, well, we broke it down into like, kind of the progression of how you would move up, right? So like community member, to contributor, to approver, maintainer, and under maintainer, we talked about this last week about nesting some of the more specific roles. Oh, I need to fix something already. Okay. Just kind of the more specific roles that are more maintainery but aren't necessarily like, necessarily further up the ladder per se, like being a community manager or a docs manager and all that. We kind of, yeah, so we nested those under a community, or sorry, under maintainer. And then, yeah. So I think I was trying to make this in a way where like, I just added as many examples as possible or descriptions and ideas like someone would come in and like, pare it down to whatever fits their role. So if anyone has more examples or descriptions, please drop them in. This is from my limited knowledge. And then the last part is around like inactivity and like people stepping down or removing them from an existing role. Yeah. This is so good that you put it in now too, by the way, because a lot of people don't think about this from the job. Yeah. That's something that people and then they're like, oh no, what do we do now? It's an event. Like it becomes an event, right? Yeah. So I'm really, really proud that you put that in now. Cool. So yeah. I'm not sure how you all normally do this. Like it's currently in a draft folder. So like, should we say to get reviews in by certain time and then just push it or? Yeah. Do you have any other to-dos in here or do you feel like every to-do every to-do or question you feel like has been answered? Like, you mean like for us to do as opposed to like for whoever it is? Right, right, right. Because I would say that that would be like a step to graduate the graduated out of the draft so that we can like give it a final review. I think the only to-dos would be like if we wanted to add more examples for people to then cut out. But I mean, I think like it's sufficient. It's not gray right now, but it's sufficient. Yeah. No, I think it's good. I think the only thing I'm going to I can add to it in a draft state is just like what your pretty much links to examples at the bottom. We don't even have to like embed them in yet. Just pretty much like a resource list or a link to the resource list that we have or something like that. But all right, y'all. Karen needs a review. So I'll prevent staleness a little bit. But yeah, I would say that one one thought would be reversing emeritus. If someone wanted to come back and still had the skill and ability to and had the time again, they should be like so Kubernetes we do like the emeritus approvers right and oversiles. And that kind of signals that someone could come back because they were one before. Okay. All right. Opposite of inactivity. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All that was really good advice. And then anybody else have any other advice questions, concerns, comments for Karen. Otherwise, we're going to go into a formal review so that we can graduate the doc out. I would have a question. So hi everyone. Hey. Oh, feel free to do a little intro about yourself. I don't like to put people in the spot anymore right in the beginning. I used to I be like, who are you and why are you here? And everybody's like back off. I'm like so excited. So yeah, no, feel free to introduce yourself. Yeah. Hi, everyone. My name is Jurgen. I'm a maintainer of the CNTF samples project called Captain. I'm really interested in like how we as a project should grow in our community and how I can like get help from the whole CNTF ecosystem and taking a look at this document. I was not is this document is the purpose of the document for other projects to to take it and like have it as a contributor's guide. So it will be like a resource for us already. Awesome. That's cool. I thought maybe it's only for like the big incubating projects, but it's okay. So I'm in the right meeting. That's yeah, you are absolutely in the right meeting. You have never been in a writer meeting. That's not like that's not even good English like it. No, yeah, we're here for any of those kinds of questions that you have. So if you if you want save those for one second, let us get through this meta planning stuff. And then we can chat your ear off all day about like any questions that you have about your project specifically, and then also how you can get more involved with us and like and stuff like that. Cool. Awesome. Alright, so last any other questions for Karen as far as contributor ladder is concerned? So are there are there to dos embedded in the the raw markdown or yeah, like basically for each section, I was like, you know, make this work for your project. Okay, okay. Not not review to dos, but yeah, okay. Cool. Now I think it looks awesome. Yeah. Yeah, thanks so much for your work on that, Karen. And who else helped you with that? Carolyn, but I think she's on pto. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, awesome y'all. So just say needs review to graduate. And we can get a note out for that. So I guess maybe a what is our process for graduation, right? It's partly it's like a folder move, right? But what you know, is it is it just the folder move and then a final review and then away we go? Like I think it's a are all the to dos that were listed on the dock as like initial to dos done, just like what you're like what you just pretty much ask like where the to dos. And then once we give it a final review. And this is in my opinion, like we can change any of this. And then and then we can do the move and do the final review once that once everything like is good in the PR. Are we talking about advisory docs or templates? Well, I mean, I guess both do you have an advisory doc process? Well, I was going to say right, I actually see those two different processes. For the advisory docs, we really need to get someone from the TOC to approve them. To sign off on them. The because in a lot of cases, the advisory docs are going to be saying like, hey, you have this requirement as an incubating project. This is what that means. And so it needs to be endorsed by somebody from the TOC as as part of the the making it GA process. Do you feel like that could be like, do you feel like this is where we should engage with Matt and Saad and then Matt and Saad will take it up? Okay, so cool. All right, let's do that. Let's do that for the templates then. So, but I mean, as far as the governance stuff that you're giving as advice, is this, are you applying that same kind of principle that we were just talking about with Karen, where it's like, are the to dos done that you initially set forth? And then has it given a final review? Or do you do anything else in between that for the graduation step? Well, for the advice, we haven't published anything. So, so we haven't, we just haven't. All right, so let's, yeah, which, which would you see as the stricter requirement? I would say the stricter requirement is actually us feeling like it's complete enough to publish. I mean, really, I really think Matt and Saad are going to rubber stamp it. It's just that we do need someone who's currently sitting on. We like your rubber stance. Yes. Well, I just don't, you know, I know how busy he is. I think if we hand him something and we say this is done, he's probably not going to say, and unless we say something in there, there's like, whoa, no, no, no, you guys are way off base there. But if he's going to have an objection to it, it's going to be a major objection. All right, Karen, you're, it sounds like, Karen, we're going to take you through this process and this should be fun. So, all right, our to-dos comments addressed has Sig given final review, have Saad and Matt looked at it, reviewed, TOC, and then Merge. Merge to final. Do we, I think what we could consider doing, too, is moving them to yet another folder, which is like under, I know, crazy, like, I love folders. We see, we're going to need a YAML to, we're going to need, we're going to YAML to manage our files. Don't call. Yeah, there's a YAML service that sends an email to the TOC that things in the folder ready for review. And that runs it on a serverless platform, obviously, right? Steven Sleepy, everyone. I'm sorry, Steven Sleepy right now. So, the reason I mentioned it was like, if it's in a folder that says like, needs TOC review or something, right, then they can async and sweep the entire folder if they wanted to, right? Or sweep the PRs, like, I didn't, but, yeah, whatever. All right, well, at least we have some kind of framework. I mean, and then, of course, Steven can do his, like, elaborate, you know, get ops, you know, once we've launched and graduated at least one, you can do some get ops for our graduation process. All right. So, I'm taking it, you have the next two for the coupon stuff, or is it, did somebody else have that? Yes, no. So, I put them up as, so the one for NA is, I heard there were some things that happened with the, maybe we should do, like, a quick retro if we need to or something for the, whatever the session happened. There was- Well, the primary core of the session was technical fail on the part of Intrado. Yes. Okay. The, there was a problem with the video and we got assigned Intrado's least experience tech to deal with it. So, it just didn't happen. Oh my, you know what, now I'm literally, you're going to laugh. I think you're going to laugh at this one. Like, literally a 1050, 1057 AM Pacific, I'm just now thinking of this idea. Why didn't we just throw a Zoom link out? Because we didn't have any way to send messages to the attendees. I was trying to do that and the tech wouldn't let me. Because there was like the Slack channels and stuff. Really? Yes. Yep. Couldn't they have like, they can do like a- Yes, they can. But only the tech can do that. And the tech was like, he basically, he was like, I'm trying to fix the video. Don't talk to me. I'm trying to fix the video. Yeah, he's like, I don't got this right now. I do not. I don't got this right now. I'm not listening to you. That was his response. Yeah, you couldn't even get it so that you could share. Right. We had the Zoom thing and I said, look, just send a message out to everybody. First, I asked him to cut straight to Q&A. I said, there's going to be a mostly Q&A session anyway. Please just cut straight to Q&A now. And he's like, wait, I'm fixing the video. I'm like, no, no, no. Don't fix the video. Cut straight to Q&A. He's like, wait, I'm fixing the video. Yeah, they literally had to pull in his manager and they couldn't figure out how to just let us share one of our screens because we all had the presentations and the presentation and the stuff up and we're like, we'll just do it again. We'll do it live, whatever. Just put us live. And I don't know, I was getting a little irritated and I'm like, can you just make us live? And I just kept saying it over and over again. Were you also doing the phone call thing with the... Yeah, and then he didn't like check, check Josh at all. And he was, he was, that's the first person you should always check check. And not only that, like when I dialed in, when I dialed in, I was like, I think there's a problem, I think there's a problem with my, it was a, I remember a Sounder video, but like I was seeing a problem when I dialed in and so I reported this to the tech and he didn't respond at all. The... Love it. So it was... Please come back, Charles. Please save us. Well, fortunately, I've gotten sort of back office confirmation that this is going to be the last in Toronto. Yeah, I was going to say we could chat offline, but yeah, yeah, it's changes. To changes. I feel like once we did get live, we sort of made the best of it. We did, y'all did great. Yeah, and it did show, like whatever it was, eight people stuck around for 20 minutes of silence in order to actually ask questions. So clearly people wanted the content, right? People wanted to do the thing. So I think maybe we should think about doing something not affiliated with a KubeCon. Why do you have a maintainer circle? We can try to shift that again. I have to drop for the sake architecture meeting, but the last thing that I was going to mention was we've got KubeCon coming up again. Okay, so start thinking about what we want to do for the next one and I will catch y'all later. Adios. So, well, I mean, he did just seed a question. Doesn't necessarily need to be around for the answers. What do y'all want to do for our KubeCon slot? And then you're again, you're going to ask us 50 questions. So anybody have any ideas or punt? Because you know, I think, I think everybody on this call, even you're in probably even knows and doesn't know me what my ideas are for the next KubeCon. Josh, Dawn, do you want to do the same thing? Or you want to do something different? Oh, I'm here. I do not want to do the same thing because in a virtual environment, it was just, it was just too hard. There's just like too many, I don't know. If the video had been fine, it probably would have worked. Maybe I'm just being dated. I think we should just do a meta session of what kind of services people can get from us. Just kind of like what, like, like, you know, Juergens here, like, he's like, am I in the right? It's like you are absolutely in the right meeting. We are here to help. So just some kind of meta session of like, hey, here's who we are, blah, blah, blah. But I really want an all day contributor summit Linux foundation. If you're listening. Thank you. So, all right. Tell us what's up in, is it captain? How do you, how do you say, is it KEPTN or yeah, never mind. I'll just let you take it from me. So it was captain. Captain? Captain? For me, it sounds the same. I'm not a native speaker. So it sounds really the same. The captain of a ship, like shipping applications and the captain of a ship. So I guess it's captain or captain. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's. So tell us about the growth stuff. He mentioned earlier that you were really into growth or that you were really trying to grow the project. Talk to us about like what, like those attentions, like, what do you mean by growth? Yeah. So the project has been, I think it's has been around maybe around two years. And I think I had the chance last year, Josh, I think I was in Portland and I was presenting together with Charles at your meetup. Yeah. Now I'm back in Austria. This project is still around, but we are, we are really trying to engage more with the community and we see there is interest in the project. People are also, we had a meet the maintainer session at KubeCon in Europe and also now at KubeCon NA. We also did the meet the maintainer session. People are interested. People, I guess, also try, try the software, download it, install it. But we are having a little bit of hard time to also convince people that it's an open source project and they can join. And we do have contributing guidelines. We do have the captain core, which is our project. And it might have a little bit of a hard learning curve because it's, yeah, it has been, the core development team has been originated from one company. So it's a lot of knowledge that is in their heads. But what we built is the captain sandbox, which is a more lightweight approach to also join the project and just build integration to the project. So we are trying a lot of things, or we think that we are trying, but we are not seeing yet that people are picking it up. So we also joined the CNTF community bridge project. We got two mentees. One was really great. We did a great job also presenting today in our community meetings. So we're also doing community meetings, trying to be open and include the community also show what's currently going on in the project. But yeah, I thought since I found this sick, I thought I have to join and I have to find out what you're discussing here and maybe how you could help projects like ours. When you said, and you said something in the beginning that I was like, I want to, I wanted to interrupt, but I didn't want to interrupt. When you're, you said something about when you're trying to get contributors, they don't think it's an open source project. What, tell me, tell me, like, how do you, like, how do you know, like, do they just flat out say this is an open source? What's that about? No, I think it's that we're trying to already solving a problem in pitching what the idea of the, of our project is. Maybe you think too much. It's a product and they just, like, they ask us to provide or to, of course, we, we are here also fixed bucks and we are happy for every compensation that we're having. But since it's originating from one company, and this company is not doing open source at its core, so that someone is interested and say, okay, hey, this guy works for this company and they are now telling us about an open source product project. It's, we still, especially in the beginning, we always got attached to, to be a commercial or to be attached to commercial software, which we are not anymore. It's now it's the CNCF project that works with every other window as well. It's not just the company that it's originally started it. Anybody else? I don't want to hear, I'm technically the bason. Yeah, I mean, I could actually go, you know, straight to some advice, which is the number one thing that I've seen work in that case is come up with some good first issues and like actively promote them. Like if you have a meeting or something or a social media channel or whatever, where you know that you have users listening, say, hey, here's these three things that we would really like to have fixed, but none of us core developers are going to have time for because it works a lot better than saying, hey, you can participate. It works better to say, hey, you can do these specific things. And even if they don't end up doing those specific things, it gets them more thinking about what they could do than the sort of nebulous concept of I could contribute. Yeah, thanks. That's a very good advice. We already did this. We started a little bit. I think we started around August with this. So even before Hectorbofest, Hectorbofest, we saw a couple of contributions, but not so much valuable contributions. It was valuable because it was a contribution and they were fixing one typo, but it was not so much that people are really showing this long-term engagement or it's not just one contribution. And good first issue, we have to improve one logging or handling. The way that you get long-term contributors is by having a bunch of short-term contributors. It's not targeting a different group of people, if you follow me. That is, somebody comes intending to fix one thing or to do one thing, and then they decide they like it there and they stay. Either because they had a good experience or because they start using Captain More in their environment and therefore more things come up or something else. And that's why one of the things we track for Kubernetes is what we call drive-through contributors, as in people who drop one PR and then we don't hear from them again for nine months, because if those are generally going to be significantly more numerous than people who are frequent contributors, and so you're trying to get a pyramid there. And more what I was thinking about with the good first issue and the advertising is more that you're trying to keep up a stream saying, hey, this is an open source project, we are actively looking for contributions of all kinds. Like I said, it's not necessarily you get somebody contributing to that specific issue, it's that you create a view of people that this is their project and not a project being maintained by somebody else for their benefit. The buy constantly sort of harping on these things, the other thing that actually also helps in terms of getting that engagement is finding discussion items that you can have on public mailing lists about development decisions. So we try to also open up the discussion, so we do a lot of discussions directly on the issues on GitHub, but we are more or less trying to work on from one weekly developer meeting to the other, so you could call it a weekly sprint. And I'm not sure, that's just a very open question here, if that is, like if it's too fast from one week to the other, kind of not demanding, but asking for taking one issue or working on one issue and then presenting it in the next community meeting already. Or if we should more open it up and then if people feel they are ready and then they have contributed then they present it, but we also try to keep like up with regular releases and it's kind of a bit difficult if we don't see frequent contributions, but if we see them coming and going, we don't get a feeling if one week sprints more or less is too fast, if it's too slow. Do you have any opinion on that? If sprint cadence is good or not for these kind of open source projects? Well, so one thing I would say is you do want to think about how does somebody contribute if they can't attend that meeting? Or are meetings necessary? Async, y'all. Because time zones. Well, but meetings do reach a certain group of developers, it's just that there's another group of developers they don't reach. That's the same thing with the one week sprint thing, right? The one week sprint thing is great for somebody coming in and saying, hey, I have some free time this week in order to work on contributing to captain or whatever. What can I do this week? So it's good for that group of people. For the group of people who are like, hey, I use captain, I have this one thing that's really annoying me. It's part of my job, but not the main part of my job. Those people are going to be in a much longer timeline. And as long as there's nothing blocking them from eventually getting that thing in, it's not really a problem. There's this other one week sprint thing going on. So I guess the question is, if somebody's operating on a longer timeline, if somebody's operating on a timeline where they can't really participate in the one week sprint, is there still a route for them to contribute? It is. So usually in our contributing guide, we ask them to just comment on the issue that they want to take it, then we can assign it. And this is how it's done. Sometimes if we don't hear back from someone who has voluntarily assigned to an issue, we wait sometimes like two weeks, but we don't see any contribution. And we don't know if they also joined our Slack or what is the Twitter handle. So then we sometimes just reassign it if someone else is stepping in and wants to take it. But in issues that would be blocking, if not done in a timely manner, that we should label with, I don't know, blocker or is there any? And realistically, those sorts of issues are going to be up to the core maintainers, whoever they are, right? Because in order to respond to short deadlines, working on Kepton has to be part of your job assignment. Now, hopefully eventually, those core developers will work for a bunch of different companies, but it'll take a while to get there. And so for that reason, it would be a good idea to tag those, right? It'll be a good idea. That's effectively bad first issue, tags, right? To say, hey, you know, and but the easiest way to do that is just have somebody claim them. If somebody has already claimed them, somebody who's looking to contribute is not going to jump in on those except from a comment perspective. And what would be your advice on like weekly developer meetings? They should be usually we discuss and present also contributions to the project, not something if you fix a typo, it's if you really want to present you can, but we call it noteworthy issues and PRs where we that maybe need discussion or was really a major contribution. So we show it to the to the whole group. So we had one earlier today. And we use this time to show our computer contributions and also talk about the next week. So maybe we should remove this part where we actually assign issues for the next week, because it's publicly available on GitHub. Everyone can just take whatever he wants to contribute to and assign it to himself and then present next time. So we should maybe just use it for discussion and what needs discussion and not so much task distribution. Okay, I think yeah, I think that's a good start. On the other thing I wanted to tell you is on Tuesdays, we have a subgroup of this group, because this is sort of like our meta meeting, if you will, where we're like trying to like plan stuff for y'all and get advice done. On Tuesdays, there is a contributor growth subgroup, and then a governance subgroup. And if you have other questions and like want to get into like nitty gritty detail questions or like stuff like that, feel free to come. And they are 1030 in the morning, so it actually might even be a better time for you. I'm not sure. Just depends. Yeah, no, thanks for coming and being interested and like growing your project. That's really awesome. You're cool. Thanks for the help. Yeah, and we can go on going. I mean, it's the other thing I would advise and the contributor growth will have more advice, which is to try to have more interaction with your users who have joined your community forums, because the more involved in the project, they feel the more likely they are to start thinking of themselves as contributors. And liberal contribution policies. Yeah, that is so key. Like the more liberal your policies are with contribution, the easier it is for people to get responses and quickly merged, the more users like the more users are going to see that and go, wow, I can actually like submit this patch. Wow, it won't like sit in the ether. So yeah, that's the like the I think the key like the key hook to users to getting more people interested in like the more more of the we really care about this vibe. Oh, thank you. I'm just taking notes. All right. I think that kind of wraps us off. Wraps us up or off or whatever. Anyway, how are you done? You didn't say much. I miss you. Yeah, I'm good. I was I admit to multi tasking a little bit because I have a million things to do and the humor gave us like a ton of extra holiday days. And so I I'm off on Monday and then after the 11th, I'm just off the rest of the year. What that means is that I have a million things that I need to wrap up before I can just take off and check out on the 11th after the 11th. So so now I'm just panicked of all the all the stuff. Yeah, I do feel like having the extra PTO is not such a blessing if it means that you're working 12 hour days until you take that time off, you know. Yep, but I have three weeks straight off. It's going to be amazing. I'm not going to go to be able to go anywhere because we're locked down whenever. Yeah, I'm only taking two for that reason because, you know, if I'm going to be in the house anyway. Yeah, I don't know what to vacation is. Karen, you taking some time off? No, well, I don't know what to do at that time. So I'm saving it. We can't we can't save it here. We've got user to lose it. So yeah, I heard or I just found out like I guess California has kind of a like a liberal policy around like how much time we can actually save for the next year. And so like my coworkers keep losing their time, but I keep saving mine. So yeah. Yeah, we're allowed to carry five days ever. And so I did this is the first I saw I'm really good at taking vacation. I I take everything that they give me and just I just use it. This is so I am 49 years old. This is the first time I've ever carried vacation days over ever. Honestly, that is you should give that advice to people when you talk about burnout and stuff, by the way. Yep. I've earned out of a couple of jobs, even with taking all the vacations. No, I think that but that still is like it. I can't explain. I feel like the charge is it's it's important you really and I turn off Slack notifications. I'm not on email like my boss and the two people who work for me all of my cell phone number and something, you know, there's some community strategy emergency. Yeah, honestly, working for Red Hatch the first time I've been able to take actual vacation, because previously I've always worked for services companies and I have always been on the escalation path. And so all vacation meant was that I wouldn't be called for anything trivial. But I still get called. No, it's pretty nice to be able to check out and disconnect for a while. Yeah, although I will be using my vacation once again to work on my in-laws house. So well, I can't go anywhere and their house needs fixing. So that's true. This is something different. Oh, before I wrap this up, you're in you're in our Slack channel, right? Yes, it's the C contributor. Is there a C contributor growth as well? No, we just we don't we talk we talk all about our sub projects and stuff in the main chat. We're not that that big yet, but maybe soon. But anyway, I wanted to say we also have a GitHub repo. If you haven't checked that out yet, and that has like what we're doing, what we're trying to do. So like you can see and tell all of your maintainers, friends that kept in that, hey, we're here for you. This is what they do. And then also join the maintainers circle as well. So that's kind of like, you know, what executives do when they drink brandy and go golfing, which is just network with each other as executives and like talk about executive related situations and things like that. So that's kind of this, but for maintainers and no brandy and no golf. So I mean, I guess it's like, bring your own brandy at that point, but bring your own putt putt too, I guess. So but anyway, yeah, just just some kind of thing for you as maintainers to get to know other maintainers who are in the same shoes you are, or might be in the same shoes you are, or in some kind of other growth path. So if you need anything from us at all, like I said, reach out. And this maintainers circle, it's also a Zoom meeting, or is this one on this? Yep, it's also a Zoom meeting. It's also a Zoom meeting, and it will not be recorded. So that's, it's definitely one of those you should be there for it type of things, um, just because it's not going to be recorded because one, we're going to go into breakout rooms, but two, because in case you say something personal or feel, you know, feel like you're comfortable enough to say something personal that you can do that. Yeah. Yeah. All right, y'all. I miss you so much. Like every meeting, I'm just like, at the end. Oh, virtual hugs, virtual hugs. Yeah. Y'all soon. Bye, everybody.