 A very good morning to you. Thank you so much for sticking with us right here. This is Y254 TV. It is a pleasure being with you on your number one youth station right here. Y254 is the best place to be each and every morning. Of course, my name is Ram Aguco. This is Y in the morning. We are coming to you live from the broadcasting house here in Nairobi, Kenya. We are also streaming live through our website. And that's www.kebc.co.ke-y254. It's a pleasure being with you today. And on this fine Tuesday morning, we want to talk about your problems. We want to talk about how best can you solve your problem with your landlord. A very good question there. What are some of the solutions that come from the problems that you're having? Solving tenant conflicts is what we want to talk about today. Are you a tenant? Do you have questions concerning your landlord? How are you trying to solve those problems that you're having with your landlords? Are you a landlord? Do you have concerns about your tenants? Are you trying to find a solution towards having an agreement with your tenants? This is that discussion for you as a landlord and for you as a tenant. Plug-in, and of course, just as my brother Sarko always says, plug-in. Tune in and of course, engage with us on our social media platforms. That's at Y254 channel, which is the official handle. My handle is at Ram Agucco, and the hashtag as always is why in the morning. To help us in this discussion, I am with Joakim Ambui. He is the founder and the chairman of the Landlords and Tenants Association of Kenya. Karbisana, my brother. Thank you. I know it's been a while since we met. Sure. Pleasure to meet you. How many years? It's a long time. More than three years, you know. Three? More than three years. Two years. Two, three? Yeah, two, three years. I'm trying to recall the last time we met. Before the COVID, I think, but we met the other day, we met. Yeah, but you look out to bumping into each other. Exactly. It's a pleasure having you again, my brother. I know it's been a while. Yeah. How have you been? Very good. Trying to bring issues maybe. We are trying to compress issues that affect people. And gradually we analyzed after pre- and post-COVID. This is now the time we realized tenants' issues in Kenya is indeed critical. Because now they have to stay at home. Yeah. And now they cannot drive away from their landlords. Exactly. There has been a conflict. Yeah. Yeah, auctioneering and their people are being locked out of their houses. No money to pay rent. Landlords, they don't have money to service their loans. So it has been a very big issue even today. Yes. And that's why we're here to talk about this. And I invite you from home. Do you have questions concerning your landlord? Do you have questions concerning your tenant? Plug in. Talk to us. These are tenant solutions that my brother is going to talk about here. We'll talk about housing solutions and your wellness, even concerning your environment and sanitation. All these things are going to be covered today in this particular conversation. First things first, my brother. Yes. I want us to handle it from the beginning because this is where people mess it up. Before I move into a house or before I make someone come into my house as a landlord, what are some of the steps that are required to be taken before that permanent or long-term decision as a tenant to move into a house or as a landlord to bring someone into my house? Okay. As a tenant, all as a landlord, you have to understand procedures. Number one, we have three principles in tenancy. Principle number one, when you want to move into a house, you have to understand what it means entry. Entry point is about to analyze the house, decide how much the rent is paid, understand the lease agreement, know everything before you make a decision to move into that house. Ask as many questions as you can. Yes. Ask many questions. Ask everything. If there is a lease, let the landlord stand and tell you this is my house. I charge this. Service charge is this. This is how I operate. Then go through that document, that contract document. After analyzing everything, you are obligated or you have the right to ask a question or amend where necessary to fit you. That I like your house by the issue of clause number one or two or three in terms of penalties, rent increment or some issues you have to raise and say, me, I don't fit in that one. I request you to amend. That is in regards to that paper. That's a lease. The argument. So you're saying before any tenant moves into a house, you must demand for the lease. You must demand in all what is involving that many things. What is it that, okay, the size of the house, the site of the house, the regulations of the house, everything, water, electricity, security. You have to assess everything. Then you sit, you go through the lease agreement or somebody, if it's an agent, has to take you through. I'm joking. Even as you continue, because I know you're talking to so many youths. Some have no idea what a lease is. They don't understand. They don't know what it is. So just in a layman's term, in the most basic way, what is a lease? It's an agreement between a landlord and a tenant. That drives you to understand how you are going to enter into the house to stay and how you are going to exit, period. It's like a contract. It's just a contract agreement. It must be signed. It must be signed after you have confirmed this lease or this contract is good to me. Sign. If you sign something that you don't understand, that's your own problem. Now, as a tenant, what if your landlord hasn't provided you with that lease? You have a right. Because there are many who move into houses. Yes, yes. Without. And the landlord will be like, what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? So they get into that house and they start paying rent. That's how they start living. You know circumstances has made our people to land into very serious problems. Yes. Sometimes maybe you have chased out maybe issues and there maybe you have been given a transfer. Maybe you are working in Nairobi. You are going to Mombasa. Then you want to settle. Because of that circumstance, it can force you to go without signing a lease. Then that signing a lease comes after. It's not supposed to be the case. As a tenant, take time. Organize your schedules. Plan perfectly. When you are looking for house, the time. That's why we are told when moving out or when you are getting into somebody's house, give a notice from where you are getting out. Give a notice so that that notice time gives you time to locate or get the best house you want. Go through the lease, the environment and everything. Then you make a decision. Like in what way to our final evil. So we are addressing these issues mostly young people. They don't understand what is a lease, what is a stay, what is entry, what is exit. So we are trying to bring this information to the young people of this country. Before making a decision to go to somebody's house, please try to inquire all the information concerning tenants. They have laws and these guys they understand. From the other side of the landlord, let the landlord have all the requirements on his or her house. Number one, there is a collaboration of the government in this housing sector. When you build a house, there are regulations. When you want to rent the house to the tenants, there are regulations. There is even certificates. They are certificates by law. That now you are certified by your premise. The premise is certified that it's best for the occupation. But our people don't have those certificates. You heard the case in some way or more. Collapsing of the house. Our engineers. We have failed as a country. So landlords must have those documents. When a tenant wants to enter into somebody's house, you have right to ask documents like certificate of occupancy. It should be provided in the list. When you are given a list, there are some attachments of documents. But these guys don't provide shortcuts in Kenya. You are saying that a tenant should be given a certificate of occupancy. Must ask a certificate. Yes, of occupancy. Because that house must be certified. That is okay for me to stay. What if it collapses? Is that a different document from the list? It's very different. There is a tenant's price of home. There is a lease agreement, a contract. There are certificates that are supposed to be provided by the landlord. Electricity, the way it's done. Security, water. All these documents are supposed to be given. Then attach it to the list. Once you have all this one, you are certified that this house is good. I can stay. You are the point. And when you go into that, you know our tenants make mistakes. Sometimes pays rent. They don't even ask for receipts. When you want to move out, you claim that there is a deposit. Let me put it clear. As a tenant, the collaboration between a landlord and a tenant, when you are in that contract, that means you stay in that house. But the moment you move out of that house, you go out. Then now you start claiming your deposit fund. Once you have left. Once you have left, there is nothing like that. Sometimes the landlord tells you, I will send it to you next week. It will never happen like that. The contract ceases immediately. You move out of that house. You must put this clear. When you give a notice that next month, I'm moving out. I will paint the house as per the law. Cap 296. All three or one. It states very clearly. A tenant moving out of that house has to leave that house the way. He found it. He got it. He found it. Meaning whose job is it? Is the tenant. Who is supposed to pay? I wanted to say that again. Whose job is it to paint the house? The law put it very clear. Cap 296 of residential premises that we have in this country. And Cap 301 of business premises of this country. A tenant immediately entering to that house. That house is painted. Is it done properly? By the landlord. You don't even ask that. You get the house which is of the standard that you want. Yes. Then when you leave that house, you want to exit. You leave that house the way you want it. That means it's the tenant's responsibility to paint. To paint in collaboration with the landlord, caretaker, agent. So this tendency of many Kenyans. Yes, yes. Here you want to leave a house. The landlord tells you that I will not give you back your deposit. Yes. Because I will use that money to paint. To do a paint job on the house. Is that legal? It's not right. That's wrong. Depost, the money that we call a deposit, it's for security purposes. So it means as a tenant. Yes. It means duty's responsibility to make sure that house is kept to standard. Exactly. Make sure all the fixing, the windowpins, the locks, toilets and everything are done before you exit. Should be like that. Go and purchase. Will the tenant see it and supervise workers who are painting the house? Because the tenant doesn't have that time. Now there is something we call inventory. This is the time caretaker, or next of kin, or landlord, or agent is supposed to supervise your exit. You paint the house. That's the time when you enter that house. I'm repeating this. Request for a checklist. Document called a checklist. That gives the scenario of that house. Details of everything. Details of everything in the order it is. You must have it. And you sign yourself as a tenant. You sign as a landlord and agent to sign that yes, Mr. So-and-so has occupied this house. The house is in best standard and we are in agreement with this checklist. Now, when a tenant is moving into a house and there are some things that are not in order. Let's say there's a problem with the sink. There's a problem with the toilet, the bathroom of the shower or the bedroom, the cupboard or the drawers. There's a problem with the walls or the sockets. At what point are these things supposed to be repaired? Now, you have gone to somebody's house. You have checked and you have seen there are some concerns but you need that house. Yes. What is it hard to tell the landlord to repair and do everything before you enter? That is your own mistake. You don't enter into a questionable house. Make sure and if you enter with the subject and scenarios, then you have to do another agreement that I have to invest in this repair. What if on the day that you enter, you are agreed that you are going to enter on Tuesday and the repairs are supposed to be done on Monday. When you come to enter on Tuesday, you find that the repairs are halfway done or none has been done. What do you do? Come with your document, write an agreement, indicate the scenarios of the house, make sure the landlord agent signs that. Don't just go inside and just assume things. Let us work within the laws. Everything is based on agreements and calculate how much not done, how much needed to be done. Put that agreement shared to the landlord, agent and whatever. Thereafter, you claim that. And that should be in the checklist. The status of the house. The checklist is the very best document even now. Whenever you are somewhere in the house, maybe even right now, you can do a notice for the request of that so that at least you understand. When you are exiting, you do what is supposed to be indicated in that checklist. So those are the issues that our people don't understand. Now, Ajokim, when a landlord has fixed everything in the house, all is well, pitchy, fine and dandy. One month down the line, or just some time after the tenant moves in, something is destroyed or vandalized in the house. Whose role is it to repair those things because the tenant will call the landlord and say, there's a problem here, this is broken. And then some tenants will say, I found it like that. And the landlord will say, no, it was okay when you moved in. When you are in that house, you bear 100% responsibility. So before you enter into that house, make sure everything is in order. Check everything and erase questions at that time. Failure to that, you bear the whole responsibility. You have to repair, you have to do everything. In this case, something has been vandalized or broken or needs repair. When you are in. When you are in. Yeah, you have to take care of that. I'm talking about now the landlord. The landlord has no responsibility on that. As a landlord, a tenant should not call you that something is broken. It never happens like that. This is what we call inventory. You have come, you have checked the house, every corner of the house, all fixing everything is okay. Then tomorrow or two, three days, you call the landlord that something is not in order. It never adds up. The moment you sign that agreement that the house is wood, period. And what if you destroy something? As a tenant? Yes, as a tenant. You repair. A tenant has an obligation to do everything to make sure you reflect capton and six. You make sure you maintain the house. When you want to leave that house, you leave it the way you want it. So maintain, repair everything to the end. Do you look for the repairman? Yes, yes. That the landlord requests or wants or do you look for your own? You have to do a notice. That is very important. That the house has a problem in maybe toilet or maybe in the kitchen. Notify the landlord. Once you notify the landlord, the landlord agrees that you have to proceed on to do and make sure you do fixing of the best quality as you want them. Then from there you proceed. There is inventory, supervision of somebody. Even a landlord will come and check. If there may be toilets and whatever, the same fixing, the same quality, everything has to be maintained. There are some landlords that struggle when it comes to rent. A tenant has not paid rent and is still staying in that house. Should this landlord kick the tenant out? How should the landlord handle this tenant? There is a procedure. Tenancy appraise or exercise. A landlord has a right to appraise or scrutinise the tenant before entry. In terms of economic strengths, the profile of a tenant should be known by the landlord. There must be a document that shows I am a consultant, I work, I am a business person, I do a B.C.D. You have to give that profile to the landlord in writing. Once you give that, the appraisals, it sets the standards to know this tenant is going to pay, is going to have issues every month, all there will be delays. I expect such. So as a landlord, you should ask the question, this question to the tenant, where do you work, who do you work for, how much do you earn? There is that level, you can see this person is able, even if his business can be able to pay, even if there is a delay, we will be going nicely in that process. So there is that tenancy appraisal. It's rightful to the landlord to know who is tenant A, tenant B, not Mama Flani, Baba Flani. You have to know by the names, the profile, and you keep in the file. And there are private information that the landlord should keep. Exactly. And confidential. That is it. Then from there you can analyse and see how this person is going to pay. And number two, a landlord has to do frequent conversation with the tenants. At least maybe there is a delay, kindly pay your rent, is overdue, your rent is overdue, or maybe whatever. That kind of conversation you can test the tenant, is a serious tenant, is a tenant with some issues, and how do I handle it? From there you can have a solution. What about in cases where the landlord doesn't deal directly with the tenant? The same applies. You asked about maybe if a landlord, a tenant has failed to pay, what are the rights of a landlord? Maybe to make a solution in terms of how to make sure the tenant pays, or is moved out, or something happens. There is a procedure. Once the tenant fails to pay, you give a notice that you have failed to pay one month, maybe, or maybe a week, you have entered into another new month. You have to give a notice that when are you going to pay rent? What has happened? Then there is a reply from the tenant that I will commit to myself within one month. Then, if the tenant fails, you give a notice of vacation, or you just come to us, our office, or we take your concerns to the court for the levy distress. It can go to court? Yes, we usually go to court always. Tenants come to our offices. Landlords, they have not recovered their money, maybe five months, six months, one year. Is there a limit as to which the landlord should say that after this duration, I will not take more excuses? It's one month. Everything is just one month. Because if you go to the second month, it's going to be a burden to a tenant, and that's a conflict. There are those guys who pay a lot of money, including 500,000, 20,000, 30,000, you know, according to their income. So it becomes a challenge. If you pay 50,000 Kenyan shillings rent, and you fail this month, and the other month is coming, my friend, 100,000 is not easy. But sometimes there needs to be this human understanding where let's say this tenant has paid three months rent in advance. Exactly. And after five months, maybe the tenant hasn't managed to pay the rent for the next month, and a second month and a third month, the tenant then says to the landlord, you know what, there are times that have paid rent for five months. Just give me time. It never works. Maximum leave you pay quarterly, you are given three months. There is a deposit of three months, which is as a curate. Then the landlord, if he senses some delays and some conflicts, has to give a notice. And it's good for the tenants to give notice that now I will never be able to pay rent continuously. So kindly let me move out. Once you give that notice, that's all. But if the landlord has a right to leave the distress through the court, or through us, we can process that. We go to court, yet court orders for leave the distress. Now, Joachim, let me move quickly. There are so many things to tackle. What about in cases where we have tenant problems? Yes, yes. That has been brought to the desk of the landlord. One tenant is complaining about a fellow tenant to the landlord. These things are there. New sense in the amenities and also one to one issues here and there. They are there. There is a contract that is to place your line, your limits. Who is your neighbor and how to handle. There is that frequent of landlord or a caretaker to go and listen to these tenants, all of them, collecting information. Sometimes you can have quarterly meetings with all tenants, try to understand the neighborhood, how people relate to each other. So it's good that you should have them. Yes, there is that frequent. You can do it monthly, you can do it quarterly, you can do it yearly. And even on the landlord you can do a party for your tenants so that you can, you know this is your client. Now end year you can see your tenants. There are people of tenants, thousands of tenants, you can plan on that because this is your business. How are you going to appreciate? You have given me your house. I stay in your house. I do my business from your house. I've excelled in my life living in your house. So sometimes you just sit down talk. Build that bond. Build that bond. But now what if tenant complains about an issue to their caretaker. And you feel like the caretaker is not doing anything. You know there are many avenues to solve conflicts. You can go to the, you can do a letter, that's a notice to the caretaker, agent or the landlord you're raising the issue that this tenant who is my neighbor opens the music too much. All some maybe you know patting or this or whatever. Patting, drinking, smoking. Yes. And these things from the word go there is a document. They are this the document sometimes tuplets in terms of pets you are not supposed to have pets like cats and dogs in a certain environment and it should be in that lease you understand. So they are already, if somebody messes around with the environment that means has gone against what, lease agreement and that must be done. Everything whether it's neighbor to neighbor tenants to tenants landlord tenants agents or this is relationship. This is in the lease agreement. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to talk about before I forget deposits because you talked about somebody has renovated house, all this has happened and when it wants to claim the deposit it becomes an issue. Yeah. The deposit is the money that is kept by the landlord and quote security. Security means what? When you move out of that house do renovations as a tenant let the inventory done by the landlord, agent or caretaker and you are given a notice to move out clean bill of health that now I'm okay, give me the deposit in that that deposit is supposed to be processed within three days you are given your deposit issues that we usually handle here in court landlords have failed to give back the deposits somebody has stayed more than ten years, five years, two years, one month giving out that deposit and now I'm coming here. Now we have come up with a very good program as the landlords and tenants as we are requesting the young people or maybe senior guys around we are coming up with a trust fund deposit trust fund you just walk to the bank deposit your deposit in that fund trust fund then when you are moving out of that house make sure the house is good everything has been done perfectly you move from that with a letter that says yes I've done renovation has moved out without any conflict then you go to the bank you receive your deposit so we are appealing to the young people of this country whenever maybe you are renting a house somewhere all these issues we will launch the deposit trust fund very soon we are negotiating with the landlords the insurance and some banks so that the caretaker of your deposit is going to be safe and also when you move out of a certain premise you will reclaim that you walk and get the deposit so it's one way we are going to reduce conflicts Jochem let's look at some of the policies that are there because I am aware that you have mentioned that you have a few issues concerning the policies that are there what issues are you having with these policies okay landlords and tenants act 2021 the document is good we did the petition we sent to Honourable Sakaja who is now the governor we sent it our concerns were raised by Honourable Kimuya in parliament so landlords and tenants act came out perfectly so they were debating there is this issue of wood will that's brought so many problems yes in all businesses or working places wherever it is in Kenya people who are now landlords or maybe head tenants in different premises have taken advantage from people who will do business in terms of wood will and in some places they are even saying that no good will is required here yeah now the issue of wood will is not supposed to be articulated or mentioned anywhere that is the willing of the head tenant tenant or the landlord now because this is my premise like now mostly hotels you find the image of the hotel the marketing all the furniture and everything in that hotel somebody moving out a new person is coming in so give me the wood will of all this in terms of millions we have seen that thing affecting our people and especially SMEs like now you see stalls in Nairobi they are asking good will that is illegal we are appealing to those people responsible leasing out those houses not to ask good will you can imagine good will are just requested and paid and they are renewable in every year if you pay 1 million you are requested after 3 years you have to pay another 1 million good will that is why you see young people they cannot progress in business because of good will you have your 500,000 1 million then when you want to put a small business it requires a wood will of 500,000 then you are less so you cannot move and we are talking to the new government under his excellency William Ruto to go with speed minister of housing let us collaborate land loss and tenants association of Kenya and many organizations so that we can bring this thing out in terms of crafting and trying to bring good policies in housing like in our housing in Kenya there is an issue the government failed that is obvious to provide houses like right now we are supposed to construct 500,000 houses in every year to answer the question of the population that we have which is not easy so his excellency William Ruto has to come and collaborate with us the people from different industries like now the border border they want to own homes there must be a strategy on that but now that we have you said you started engaging now that he is the governor do you see these things being solved it will be solved because we have to push the bill is the bill is in parliament and we have to make frequent meetings with Honourable Sakaja so that himself and the entire government of the county to understand issues on housing and let me speak on even business now like now the revenues, taxes on housing Kiare now is not easy we are told that as a citizen you have to pay taxes so that you can fuel it and we are happy our population is growing but now the mechanisms of tax collection is not done they were supposed to be done because of the rent income tax rates all these things they don't know how because if you go around Nairobi town rates building all these we don't collect the best because we need to have money so that once we have enough resources in the county we can be able to plan like now when we talk about housing like now young people when you are in university you are in college you need to own a home and that's why we have said if the government will come up with a very nice robust program in terms of how to plan and to land lots and that program we have how are we going to do it we have to identify how many people we are in the county how much we need do we have spaces like now on Aribosakaja as to talk to us then we say we have of take us like now students the police, the teachers the drivers we don't have houses if we can have that program perfected every day you can contribute 100 shillings to that kit that 100 shillings we have build good houses you are in the house then you start now servicing slowly for 5 years I would like to move on when we look at the landlords most of our landlords are really suffering here because now they have to pay or service some loans do we have any protection to our landlords are they protected they are protected by the law they are protected by the law but they are hurting they can't even pay service their loans it's taking so many years sometimes when covid hit in this country we even spoke to the banks financial institutions to put a stand still on interest rates to landlords for some time or reduce that's one way of protection then we did that one there are some banks that called these landlords and negotiated yes we will not judge you this time or we have waived for you for this period of time so that you can catch up if things go well that's ok so they are protected yes now what are some of the tips that you can give our landlords for watching you because there is a landlord that is watching you today and is honoring what are just some of the for lack of a word life hacks talk to that landlord watching you today landlords in the country they are about you have 5 million we have 5 million landlords in the country first I have to congratulate landlords because they are the best intrapreneurs building houses is not easy it's hard work to make sure and your experience because I know you experience a lot of problems in terms of tenancy management so rent collection as a landlord you are the super intrapreneur so if you are a super intrapreneur it means when you are giving occupation to your tenant make sure do consultation analyze properly who is that tenant to come to your house because that is economical aspect you must have a tenant who will pay rent then that rent you use it for your own means or you service the loan or you develop yourself so do what we call tenancy appraisal exercise to all tenants that you have get in consultation with landlords and tenants association of Kenya for more information and also for us to come in and help you because we have collaborated with the financial institutions from outside the country if you want to construct or you want to excel in housing you come to our offices then we will connect you with some financial institutions that's a benefit number three please as a landlord in this country know there is your organization called landlords and tenants association of Kenya be a member on housing how to manage your houses how to collect rent and how you can reduce conflict in terms of rent delays we have a solution wow let me get it from you is it okay for landlord to say that in my house I only want people who are married wrong every person has his or her right to you know it's a target group but it never applies never applies it's not in law it's not in law Joachim I want you to talk to tenants now we've talked to the landlords we're done with them let's talk to the tenants some of the tips that you can give our tenants tenants of this country there are many in the country and I know here we have so many tips you can give them tenants of this country I know you are suffering a lot because the government has not created enabled involvement for you to do business so that you can manage to pay rent but rent is a priority make sure you save slowly slowly it comes to the end of the day of every month at least you have something and if you have an issue please communicate to us give a notice to your landlord a landlord can understand then do timelines how you are going to pay rent in case your rent is overdue number two be a member to landlords and tenants of Kenya we are coming up with a solution in terms of insurance it's underway once you have a problem and you are our member and you are servicing your premium in the insurance we will be giving out 3 months rent relief so that 3 months rent relief is going to help you to catch up the next subsequent months so please tenants make calls come to our office few packed towers 19th floor 10 line reach us we will help you and once you are a member there is this program called Transforming Tenants to Landlord the Mamamboga, the Boda Boda drivers and the conductors teachers, the police students in our universities in any corner you need to come to us so that at least we can give you tips how you can help your tenants there is a question from David I have a problem ever since covid struck my landlord has been increasing rent and now I feel like moving out and I am tired, what do I do please advise we know covid has disturbed everybody nobody has stabilized at this moment what you do if you want to move out and you are not in that good terms with your landlord we have two options option number one you do a notice or you just visit our office we do a demand notice from our office through the courts through your jurisdiction the police where you stay the OCS of that area has to be notified then when you move out you notify the landlord so now you know sometimes we will not want it to blow up in their face they will not want a police case it is not a police case we must work with the administration these are the people we work with all over Kenya when I do a demand notice from my office it must be received in the court that is tribunal court residential premise or business premise so for David's case David's case do a notice or we do ADR ADR means alternative disputed resolution we talk to the landlord and the landlord can listen to us for David to move out from there maybe if there is a Reyes we can agree how he is going to do it the only solution is for him to move out and the rent increment can't be halted no no no it's not easy it's not easy this is from Lucy I've lost it yeah this is Lucy I have a friend who the landlord is threatening to evict her from the house she is a single mother struggling to make payment and life has not been easy for her is there a solution that she can find yeah there is a solution we do we will represent the case to court to have a stay order from our court so that the mama single mother and we will find a solution she has to tell us the solution in terms of how she is going to service the rent areas in future so we can give a way forward in terms of going to court to get a stay order she stays there or if she feels she is going to move out to a very manageable house it's also granted we can do that one we have a DR we talk to the landlord to give her a permission to move out all time to service the rent areas I love this so many questions are circling in but I believe we have managed to answer most of them if you have any problem with the repairs go to your landlord tell your landlord there is a problem Tengeneza Tengeneza as he may notify the landlord some tenants vandalize things and they want the landlord to repair that is wrong very wrong, that is your house temporarily, you know a tenant if you have occupied a space or a house that is your permanent residence, that is your house temporarily Joakim, I want us to bring this discussion to a close yes yes one day we should have a discussion between buying a house building a house renting a house which is the best another day I want to give you time to have a final word and give us your parting shot talk to Kenya today landlord and tenant Tengeneza is there to protect tenants and landlords we provide a platform for both to make sure we understand tenancy laws and how they are applicable in our life we we are appealing to all Kenyans we are coming up with a very good program that is landlord and tenant trust deposit trust fund we are initiating some insurances our banks and even to be the caretaker so kindly to reduce these conflicts that we are having because the deposit fund is becoming a rambad in this country so supporters and all tenants because we are many kindly make a step of becoming a member into our organization so that it can enable us know the data know your concerns and how to handle I am appealing to the government which is in place under Isaac Salancy the president Dr. William Ruto we need a collaboration that is under minister of housing so that we can give some tips what is needed to be done in this country we need people to own homes we need people to be self-reliant in terms of houses what makes this poverty to bring people down is because of shelter it means you will save you will educate your children you will eat well there will be no problems that family so we are anticipating very hard minister of housing in collaboration with landlords and tenants of Kenya our our courts at least to come out clearly and make this tenancy issues to be understood to the public thank you so much Mr. Joakim and of course that is Joakim Obui from the landlords and tenants association of Kenya you are saying people should join how can someone become a member we just make a call we need tenants can register that I would not share maybe how much you will be taken through and it's renewable every year landlord can register when you contact our offices that's annual renewable then there are benefits we represent you in court we represent you in arbitration we represent you in ADR and sometimes we protect you so if someone wants to get a hold of you how can they do so you can call 0723 983 352 you can call 0733 984 309 you can call 0723 983 352 or you can call 0733 984 309 you can call again 0721 5140 39 you can come to our offices that is few packed hours 19th floor or you can come to another office which is at Popman house along Moy Avenue first floor the social media the Facebook is there you will just get us thank you so much for popping in today it was a very enlightening discussion I feel like many youths are now at a better position to make decisions that moving forward are best for them thank you so much keep doing what you are doing God bless you my brother that is the end of this discussion that we have been having today on wine in the morning we value your feedback thank you so much for tuning in my name is Ram Magukko stick around for more on wine in the morning