 understanding of European cohesion shall emerge. I will cut things short because we are a little bit late already but before I introduce the speakers let me just say how you, our invisible audience, can communicate with us. We will stop our discussion every 20 minutes or so, maybe a little shorter now for Q&As and those of you who are watching on Zoom can send their questions to the speakers, to the speakers using the Q&A box and those of you who are watching the live stream can type their questions in the chat and the forum team will pass them on to me. Let me now quickly introduce the panelists. I start with, well for my Leo Svinkl, Leo Svinkl is the former dean of the Maastricht Theatega Academy and president of Pleta platform of nine European theater academies that has been founded with the aim of creating new experiences for students when working together as young theater professionals in Europe so they form a strong community of practice. Welcome Leo. Thank you Regina. Beata Tsuchinskaya is a Theatrologist and Cultural Manager and since 2005 she has been the Academy Chancellor in charge of organizational and economic matters at Alexander Selvierowicz National Academy of Dramatic Art in Warsaw, Poland. She has managed numerous international projects and festivals at her university. Thank you very much for joining us Beata. Thank you Regina. Maastricht by last but not least cultural manager and university lecturer at the University of Theater and Film Art, Budapest, Hungary, Head of Art Theory Department and Senator and all this formally we must add here because Matej just resigned from all his functions. Reason is the forced transformation of the university from a public institution to a private foundation as decreed by the Hungarian government and Matej still supports the ongoing student strike for academic autonomy and freedom of the arts and we shall certainly hear more about this during our panel. Thank you. Thank you Matej. I'm a dramaturg and I'm teaching acting students at the University of Music Theater and Media in Hanover and here I also represent a little bit as the General Secretary of the EUTSA, this network of 18 international theater schools and academies. We were asked to join the forum not to present our association but to use the network to provide expert knowledge for the future challenges in higher educational theater and performing arts. Now the panelists we agreed to start with a personal round and I would like to ask you why did you start international cooperation in higher theater and performing arts education in the first place. Please try to stay short and concise and please Leo can I ask you to start. Yes, it's a pleasure to start. When I came to Maastricht to become the Dean of the Maastricht Theater Academy for more than 20 years it was quite obvious for me that we should look around and if you look around in the city of Maastricht you look to the neighbors which are other countries and other cultures familiar but others like Belgium with the Flemish and French culture and like Germany. So that was quite obvious this theater academy in Maastricht had to look out and reach out to his neighbors. One of my guest teachers and good friend and advisor was at that time and still is Johan Ziemanns. Johan is an alumnus of the Maastricht Academy but he started his at that time I'm talking about the 90s his international career especially in the German speaking areas and together with Arthur Zonnen who was at the time director of the Dutch International Theater Festival they created this idea of making of a theater academy also an international meeting point so we started international conferences and that was on exchange and meeting and after that we started the first bilateral cooperation co-productions with theater academies in the UK in Germany and even in Russia in Petersburg on a temporary basis on a project basis it was bilateral and it was very interesting and it tasted to do more like that because students had a good a big benefit of it and so we tried to make it more structural and not on a project basis with even more partners and then arose this idea of a platform of European Theater Academy's PLETA to get all together we are eight partners to create multilateral cooperation and co-production because we do believe and the first results are very interesting about that that this kind of working together gives the biggest results in in in in skills in competences and especially in multicultural multilingual possibilities for our young theater makers which is the basis for Feud in the Future maybe we could have a caught few Regina on on one of the projects a very short video yeah about the project with refugees about the refugee team okay that we made in 2016 with all our PLETA partners uh Juno could you be so kind to start the Odyssey clip yes thanks it's just like this open things that you can when you know it's about refugees when you know it's about the the Odyssey you you have enough room to build your own story i think and that's and that's a cool thing about it it's also in this project the audience are the fugitives so they come and see all the aisles and of course they don't understand you as all fugitives come on the Greek shore do you think they speak Greek nobody does but they do understand each other okay any questions no questions okay we hand out the programs and then have a have a great week have a great week let's go two lines on both sides of the road during our performance here the member of the audience shall be addressed as other cells uh i'm jacquo like a piece of curious theater if i may refer to Goran's wonderful wonderful speech people just meeting not knowing what will be the outcome of what they are going of what they are going to create together or to communicate in the first place thank you very much i would like to pass on to Beata what was your reason to start with international cooperation thank you Raghina and welcome everyone and i'm really honored to be here at this forum so if this is about personal approach it will be about personal approach i'm from Poland so i was born and raised in a communist country and everything the beginning and everything is on this axis the western and eastern european europe well i joined european union in 2004 and it was more or less the same time when i went to brass's first time i was a representative of the inter-artist thematic thematic network into the frameworks of Socrates program and my academy was an institutional coordinator of this thematic network and that was the meeting full of contrast first i was the only person represented representing the thematic network from the former communist country and probably the first Polish citizen in this group i was young 28 years old lady in front of a noble middle age man mostly professors all of them represented serious sciences of humanities and i was representing arts to be honest there was one music thematic network but still that was a huge confrontation and that was that was the lesson but that was also the meeting when i first time saw how the culture politics are made and that the worlds are followed by real activities and that there are real possibilities to cause the change people there in the european union offices were really helpful and friendly in the meantime i have visited brass's many times as we still don't have euro so western countries are still relatively expensive to us and i was looking for the cheapest hotels and walking the city on my foot with a small suitcase and i was surprised that not every salesman in shop and not every waiter is nice to me and i was thinking what am i doing wrong and my best friend explained me that lots of brasil citizens do not accept us you eu visitors with those small suitcases and i saw this scratch and maybe i could read about somewhere in newspaper but i felt it and i understood that this feeling is one of the most elements of understanding the processes of european processes and that was that this is the first reason i'm working on this just i think the feeling is very important during my work i always i was also traveling a lot of in it for different festivals and i was visiting its festival in amsterdam or act festival in bilbao i was in sarajevo in rome and i remember that at the very beginning i rejected the art presented by young artists on the festivals in the western festivals this western performing arts let's say and it took me some years to understand that this is not a bad art this is just another language this is another sensitivity this is another culture context and another audience and i remember long talks with our students who at the very beginning also had this problem with the reception of this artistic language of their friends from from the west let's say in in general so that's the other reason the experiencing of different cultural contexts really have this experience i think today is even more important than it was before because we are convinced that we know something about other cultures because the internet social media movies tv series which say everything but it's smoking and i think if you really want to understand each other we really need to experience each other and this is the third element i would read i would like to say during the its festival which alexander zilberovich state theater academy organizes since 2002nd once this year we invited two groups one from israel and the second from iran and we are really afraid how to deal with those groups not to cause any accident by chance between those groups because they were of course in conflict and the a tradition of our festival is that one day all the representatives of all the schools are sitting at the round table and talking one to another about the schools methodologies artistic challenges so we also arrange such such meeting with all the representatives and the representatives from iran and israel they said face to face at the same table and said to us that they they were really happy to be there as a human human talk with each other just a normal just without any political conflict or whatever the conflict was all about their heads and that was so touching and convinced me that all the efforts you make to organize this meeting between people is that war so this is my personal very personal approach and that's why i'm working on developing international corporations for my students thank you very much thank you very much beata um that's what festivals can do we might later on speak about what is not be able to be managed by festivals alone but we have to take other as it's now i switch to martin please to your personal statement yeah good morning everybody um actually my experience is is quite close to beata's since i'm also coming from a central eastern european country hungary where i was born and i where i i live i was privileged although to start my professional career at the turn of the century as the managing director of a young independent theater company called critaker which was led by arpa chilling and we had a fantastic period of some 10 years where we could develop and and nurture fantastic international network of co-producers and presenters and therefore we had the chance to travel all around europe and even beyond which not only allowed to us to to develop an operational model which was unique at that time in hungary and which led me to the university to the academy word to reflect on and and teach about but also opened a fully different perspective for us as young theater makers and and later on thinkers on on those very important issues of international corporations what can work and and how and of course i it's useless to tell you that some 20 years ago the situation was completely different and when you came from a post-communist country this was something really inspiring and and interesting for western partners therefore the the models the corporation models worked on a very different pattern than it is now meaning that that we still we were still considered that as as artist professionals coming from the so-called margin so we should be somehow integrated or reintegrated in our common european culture and for that purpose many very generous and and forward looking programs were also initiated and and maintained by the by the western bodies and organizations which also somehow raised the question whether we are how much we are dependent on that kind of cooperation scheme and very early on it was it was a big topic for us how to how to get to an equal level and how to create real partnerships based on mutual understanding and exchange and real share of resources and experiences and it was so it was as long as it was a professional choir in the professional debate i think it was very healthy but when it moved also to the political level which after the the joining of the european union and the same time 2004 and more explicitly after the coming to the power of the new urban regime in after 2010 this position is was even somehow at the political level and the cultural policy level also counterbalanced and now these countries in the former east or former central east behave and claim as a sort of superiority who were best positioned to know what true european and true national based european christian culture is about and tries to preach about it and and make lessons to western countries which are now considered as declining and losing their parts so it's very very frightening and also very insightful to look at all those major moves and it's when it comes to culture it's it's we are really touching the the heart of it and of course it very much relates to the to the possibilities of corporations and international exchanges my experience as a university teacher which dates now almost 15 years back that despite of all these programs and and european reunification students in local schools remain quite closed and and quite cut off the the meaningful and and and really mind the changing european corporations so there is a lot to do and this was also one of my priorities as a as a university staff member to open up new ways of corporations and and as as in that as case also a festival experience went into that direction that that we also we've been running but i think that first of all for for any kind of meaningful cooperation to happen there is a there is a real precondition and is it really to to to be on on the same platform so when it comes to to to educational institutions when it comes to universities and when when we when we are exploring what kind of cooperation scheme can be set up one the the top precondition is to to be placed on the same basic value set and and and and and be not only uh instinctively but outspokenly also agree on on some basic values like the the the autonomy of those universities who are supposed to to to cooperate and this autonomy is also related uh both at the academic both at the organizational and also at the political level and therefore the current situation is buddhapesh is is is on the one hand highly problematic and on the other hand very much uh full of lessons for for for the european family of of artists and and and academics because the very basics of these these values are seriously attacked by the by the government and are fiercely defended by the students so just a little illustration on that a short clip that the duna you can launch and maybe i will just explain why you are watching the this this very short clip to to explain what is it about it's uh it's from a yeah can you can you hear me or just the music okay so it happened two months ago it was early september where when the carta that we wrote with all the university values this piece of paper was uh transmitted hand by hand from the university's building until the parliament it was a huge festival so perfect equalized by the feasts around the streets of buddhapesh i think you have to explain later pull out from my feeling moment just let the clip go and then okay sorry to interrupt you but it would have been too if you can do either what's the video or yeah sure sure so maybe you just yeah tell us what we saw so you what you could see that it's uh this this carta uh with the the description of of the autonomy of of of the university or of the university tasks in in general and these these claims and this basic value set was transmitted from one hand to the other through other streets of of buddhapesh from the university's building until the parliament building and the tens of thousand people joined this improvised public feast and and and and help students to to to make it very performative what what they mean by by autonomy what they mean by defending the the universal values that that are that that should be european and which are currently under serious attacks this recording is from september early september and many many things uh happened yet and unfortunately not in the good direction but we can talk about it later thank you yeah maybe we can talk about this later thank you thank you very much um i have got normally i would stop now for some q days but we haven't got any um yet um i suppose everybody is just following your very thrilling descriptions of of your of your personal reasons which i can very much understand and and underline i mean where we are like more or less two generations sitting here being socialized likely on me in the last decades of the nine of the 20th century you know where this overwhelming feeling of opening opening up international cooperation culture as one of the major means of transport of sort of exchange about about about cultural um identity and and this uh this word has gotten a strange taste by now this is why i wanted to i'm using that i wanted to to say that i personally very much like um a shift of terms the french philosopher françois julien proposes because he says um we should not use the word cultural identity anymore because it gets the notion of nationalistic thought and it goes into an area we do not want to find ourselves again just as it is happening now outspokenly in in in in budapest it's almost a folkish idea behind it and he and he he said let's replace it by the term cultural resource it's a little technical but what it means and this is important for the students i believe that a cultural resource is just what you have and can bring with you as material into each encounter and each it's exchange it's not your identity it's not your national identity it's just your luggage your cultural luggage you can you can and you can take with you and he also said let's not use the term um cultural difference anymore we worked with these terms very much but now we should we should not use them anymore and rather say um just say distance we're separated by distance and not by difference so also this again is just a geographical uh gap you can overcome when you travel and meet other people and full stop to this so i would really um like to to ask you starting with this um what do you think are the challenges we meet now and we face now if we want to establish a european basis for social dimensions in our metier in the arts and why does this have to start in uh education from your experiences yes leo please you have to unmute yourself leo you have to unmute yourself yes thank you very much in in in addition to to this idea of resources we we uh we had in the plata platform this concept of treasures um uh all every academy uh biata uh has a very good example for that because of her grotowski heritage and workshops nearly every academy has his own treasures which is very beautiful to share because then you can share experiences and you know more or less a tarship knowledge to other academies without restricting yourself to this treasure as as something like your own identity which is the most beautiful that that there is in the world and so it gives uh lots of opportunities for co-creating between universities and academies to share those treasures so you have a good look at your own more or less cultural tradition and in the same time you make it as a very positive starting point for exchange and co-creating besides that we have to to to to um to understand that our national heritage are very young because our national states are not existing longer than a couple of ages and before that it was quite another and and uh situation even in europe with with a lot of uh uh integration processes and and moving processes during all the ages we have been so there there's much more we have in common than we should uh different from each other i think that's that's a more historical view but i think we shouldn't forget that yeah okay thank you leo but what um what about the others about the yes libert about the challenges we meet today uh i i would like to uh make one step back to what you said regina about about those two generations and from my point of view and i think mother may say the same uh that as we were born in a close countries and we were raised in the close countries and then the countries opened so so wide and we could experience this openness and uh uh develop some tools to make cooperation and now we are witnessing a kind of closing again borders mental borders and even physical borders uh because of the pandemic but not only the the the pandemic is is not the only reason of this closure so i think that this this is the process i i really feel a lot of regret in myself that this uh we are going to close our countries again and our minds again and about what uh what leo said about what are the perspectives now and what shall we do uh i think that this uh uh play the project uh which was really focused on sharing the the resources of the academies was really worth and we can show for example if tuna may may you uh show this grotowski workshop that was clicked to maybe for a moment yes we can we have the time you know tuna is looking for the yeah thank you we have been walking silently hours in the forest together just walking just be in their own time and own rhythm passing the space and we could be really the part of the nature simplicity without any big uh philosophy just to open your mind and be here and now the tempo of everything is two three times quicker stronger the everything is running and rushing uh we are thinking that the tools we have will be helpful to have more time for ourselves but the tools we have they are taking our time time that we can take about ourselves i think that instinct of the human being is enough strong that the people know there is kind of uh very dangerous process of losing completely contact with the real life young people now they more and more they are in the virtual reality and very often happens that young people they feel lost in the real reality the real life they absolutely prefer to be there because they could control and they are lost here use the theater like the place for self-development like the the place that they will recognize for what the life is it's not for make the fantastic big show the theater for me is the place where that you should know what means human being yeah thank you thank you very much for sharing this this was a grotowski workshop uh uh you gave in in varsal and there were international students joining in getting to know the method of you know one of the methods of grotowski right yeah that was uh that was the workshop it was not in Warsaw we organized it but it was in Brzezinka near Wrocław that was the origin in place when a grotowski was working what is interesting about this workshop that the students were there in a group of more or less 24 persons I think they had to care about everything they had to care about the water their their food cleaning the venue and everything and even if they had the problem with the energy they had to go through the field and just solve the problem so it was real a real experiencing the life but what I would like to stress is what Thomas Schroder said in this in this movie that what our challenge now is to find for the students a place for self-development using all those resources we have and dealing with all those resources resources we have as the academies and the cultures you said in the thank you you said when we when we when we first spoke all other I mean we're speaking of higher higher education and of universities which is strange enough that art should be you know taught at universities but it's it's good and you said Beata I remember very well all other sciences have included the necessity to think about what you're doing to reflect what you're doing whereas people who are doing performing arts always act act act act they're always doing they're always doing and and the curricula give a very very little room for for this what in in a certain extreme you are doing in this Grotowski workshop philosophy and I also reflect back to what Gordon said this this morning this really also is again an anti-cartesian measure of doing theater together and experience and experiencing each other so like we are in the middle of the topic now because all this international exchange is something which is more and more done on festivals there are a lot of possibilities to do co-productions many of them are fostered by EU programs you can apply for but our issue is why should we start with students at the at the university and what can we do what can we do in our universities to make this happen more because if we wait for the students to go out into whatever theater film whatever they are doing it's sometimes too late to even make this experience because you're on the market and you and you and you and you have and you have to run now we have a very elaborate system of trainings in Europe and every theater in every theater school I meet sort of more or less outspoken the conviction our education is the best our program to train artists is the best we have the best method for whatever kind of theater and this is not exactly a spirit that's fostering international collaboration between the institutions themselves I mean Erasmus is fine you can go and have your experience but we're talking about something different here aren't we who wants to yeah Leo please yes yes I think that's a very important aspect of co-creation you have to open up to the other universities academies and that starts with at least being very curious about what the others are doing and how they do it and to be as open as possible to to discover values they can provide for your own students and so you have to leave the comfort zone as as a dean or as as professors at your academy that that what you are doing is the best for your students so you have to come out of your own comfort zone which is not not that easy as it sounds because we all I do think we all in the academies have a very strong engagement with our students and really try to make the best program we can so we really do believe in in the values of our program so to step a little bit aside of your own beliefs is is not that easy as it sounds but you have to do that to create space for real co-creation and interaction with other point of views with other forms of training and even we have to leave the comfort zone that what what the professors the teachers are proposing is the best way and gives the best results we have even to open up to give the space to the students themselves to create in a more autonomous way than we are used to I think in our educational programs so in my opinion the the the learning outcomes of our programs are for more than 50 percent in the hands of the students themselves and what they learn from each other in a kind of peer group learning and we should create the circumstances that they can benefit of that approach and even more that they can benefit if they go out their comfort zone themselves if they go step into such kind of international co-creating groups because they become a creative community themselves at that moment so that that is not as easy as it sounds it it it will take a lot of wise coaching and and facilitating from from our academies from our teachers to to realize that but I have a very strong belief and the first experiences in play are very promising that the learning outcomes of such kind of projects are very high for the students themselves I'm sure Martin has to say something about this yes of course I wouldn't give you the word yeah I'm happy to elaborate on that because you're absolutely right this is a this is a methodology it's a it's a it's a it's a methodological approach that should be consciously developed within the universities and among or between universities when it comes to international cooperation and yes it is so and and this is what we could experience with this very unexpected and and randomly happening series of performances that we call the the free republic of learning which takes place now in in buddhapesh for for more than 70 days now actually it it has finished or it finished yesterday because of the pandemic regulations students were forced to leave the building so the physical blockade of the building and this very impressive outreach program that they've been developing for more than two months now it's temporarily over and it all moves again on the digital era and we will see what it what what it will what kind of results it will give but while it was possible to be in the physical space and in an absolutely extra curricular setting they could meet each other and and work with each other more intensively and more cross disciplinary than it could have been ever planned consciously by by the departments and by by any kind of festival setting or internal project weeks or whatsoever that we experienced so far the results are just brown mind blowing I can say it's and it's not just mind blowing for for the citizens of the university but it's also such for the for the general audience and and the and the lessons go far beyond the current the actual walls of the institutions it it penetrates deeply the conscious of the whole society which which follows closely what is going on in that kind of free republic of of of learning and this freedom is really crucial in in times where for different reasons actually spaces are closing down as as as batter rightfully said and this is on the one hand the fact that we have to deal with but on the other hand these are manipulated moves from certain political tendencies that we have to be aware of and and and have to seriously counter and that's why this this whole experience of our students is so important and maybe can also show as an example because as in the research processes in in general you try you try you try and by chance somehow sometimes you you find a good solution which then will be methodologically observed and and and and and scientifically elaborated so that's why I I'm happy to be here and to report about that yes we started our school year unexpectedly in a very uh uh excellent situation which never happened before but the but the the the results are absolutely going on that direction that you are also uh mentioning uh Leo and and which in a happy time uh should be somehow reinstalled and inbuilt in the the formal educational philosophy and and setting and yes but you are very right uh and and and and and and Regina also that that it can only happen if performance and reflection are present at the same time and and and the results of the reflective process are clearly communicated in in in different channels because these things like cooperation and and outreach doesn't happen just by by itself it it has to be prepared and have to be uh enacted and explained that yes we are doing that and and we do that in purpose so if uh if I may just uh to a one minute long clip if you know you can you can show a very again a very powerful example of that how the idea of the solidarity reaching out to five countryside universities in Hungary was prepared by our students and enacted in the form of a ultra marathon course which started from our building and reached out to five different university cities where local university students waited for the flame of of of autonomy and celebrated it so just one minute impressive example of what your students are inventing on that strike and they're really like infecting many other groups know who it's like we know this from historical examples that the the arts very often the arts start to start to make a political protest with their means and their their their facilities in order to to wake up the country or in order to formulate the autonomy of not only of the arts but of of of human beings and if I understood rightly for all those who are watching us and didn't follow very closely the events in Budapest it's it's all about not being sacked by economy and by private consortiums taking over for public like public resources you know we're all used that universities hospitals and all these things are public goods and now they turn into private private private private economies and universities should be the last should really be the last to do this or we should have public public universities not only private ones I'm going back to I'm going back to what you said you all said before this torcher on we were talking about changing something in our way to teach I mean ultimately we will have to speak in the session about why should there be any european action in this field why don't university do themselves what they find necessary to do on the national and international corporation level but but the first thing I want to stress is that this has to do with freeing the curriculum in our times to do less and live more space and take input input input input out to get some more space is a very unusual thing to do and universities especially since bologna under the stress of giving input to their students and not let this kind of free development happen do you have a vision on how this could work I know in plater you tried it but but we are talking about not only a short-term experiment but we're talking about something substantial which should change in arts universities in times to come no yes maybe maybe I can try but I do think free the curriculum is important to make space for a more autonomous learning by by student collectives but that's that's not an easy way to do it takes it's a long term policy you have to build up together with with your staff at the universities at the at the theater academy so it's not it's it's it's a matter of building up confidence with a curriculum that is not completely explicit filled with materials lessons training programs we know about already so you have to open up to experiment we don't know about already what will come out and that's that is necessary as well that it takes quite a lot of a period of times to do so step by step you know because you don't want to lose those things that that have proven quality you know and that's what you mentioned already Regina we all more or less proud about the quality of our alumni who have a brilliant well lots of them a brilliant performances in in the professional practices you know so we are more or less very close connect to our nationwide professional practices so on that level we have to show some courage in to to open up the the highway from educational system to the professional practices which is known and more or less defined and you have stepped to have to take courage to gather with your students to step aside to go a more autonomous way and to find out maybe the theater of tomorrow future theater so that's that's looks like somehow even a danger for the future of your students because they also want to come into the system we all know theater the movies television and we all wish them to become more successful in their profession with their beloved ambition they work very hard for that so it's it's not not an easy thing something like you have to skip further percentage of the curriculum and you can do that if you want to know it's a very a precious thing to do and I think you you should take time for that do it step by step but you only can do that if you have the interest of the students themselves because otherwise you we should make the same install the same system again that we as as the management as the policy makers of a future education decide that we should do so no you we should do that together with the students and find their interest in in these so-called open area and to step aside but that's one bit I know I give you the word in a second it's just clear what you say stresses the necessity to make experiments you don't know the outcome of and to and to and to do this and to do this and to do this not only in your country I'm always have an eye on the on the on the European level because there is there is not a better way to reflect on yourself or feel you know resources you have treasures you have then then in the then then meeting the other and the outcome is not not clear at all and and we have to of course we have to realize that other than in other sciences or in studies students of performing arts are at the same time creators and the instrument and the materials they create with this is true for actors but also for musicians and for all the others so so they they this would be a possibility to free the curriculum because you are doing it together with others which because they are the others bring in some new aspects and and keep you from knowing beforehand what you want what you want to achieve if I may put this technically Beata please forgive me for going in no of course because it's a vivid discussion so it's well it's difficult to add something to what you said to Leo because I think that you just said what I would like to say what I would like to add is that when I thinking about because we are we have this tool as Erasmus is and the students of course are using this this tool and even this we are trying to have some joint master degrees but my thing is that Erasmus is not enough for artists because one or two two semesters of exchange is not is not enough it's not sufficient for them to to to really have this self-development as we are thinking about young artists who are looking for their own their own way and who who are also looking for their own research and this is what we also don't have enough space in our curricula to to to allow them to make their own research and to explore their own fields because we are all the time thinking about competencies skills and social skills they should have from from our curricula which are really structured my my guess is and my thing is that even the festivals is not enough because the festival as my experience is when we organize itself festival and we really wanted all the groups to be together for one week and we were organizing funds for this that the students are here for one week a full week and they can see each other and they can talk about the talk together and maybe maybe construct so so collaboration as far as I know it didn't happen so far so this week is not enough they can see each other they can discuss about it but that they are going to their own words and doing the same as they did more or less when I was thinking about this what what what is clear for me that as Erasmus is a stable program and a stable structure long lasting as we know how it works it would be good to find a long lasting with long perspective program for artists performing artists which are also stable and where they have apart from what you said Leo this free the curricula they have a stable conditions for making the research and really looking for what you said the results we don't know I have maybe one example which is maybe quite close to it one of our students of my student from a student and I will even tell this is Alicia Borkowska which is important when she was a student of theater department in Warsaw she asked me to go to Bologna university within the Erasmus program so she spent one semester there and then asked for another one spent one year there and then she decided to stay in Bologna and she was there for five years and she came back into 2012 and then she was working with refugees and immigrants and she saw this Lampedusa crisis herself and everything and she was developing this program and she was developing her professional tools on this field of research that was her field of research when she came back to Poland she started to work on this field of research in Poland which is absolutely something marginal let's say and nobody was talking widely about immigrant crisis which came two three years later and then I saw that her research she made just one individual artist and then she came to Poland and made a big I would say big discussion about it and now she's one of the experts on this field here in Poland and she's adapting all those tools here for our issues concerning the the immigrants so that's sometimes it's very individual and we have to agree with this that it won't be for everyone it should be for individuals but those individuals might create something bigger later and if I may add theater and performing arts is always about sharing experience to a third to an audience so this is why we I mean this is maybe it's silly to say because all of us who are attending these three days but but but we tend to forget about it that we are sort of like the basic transformation tool of of experience and of empathy ever whatever we do yeah thank you Beata because because the experiences we all have I believe is and this is why we are thinking so hard about developing openings and collaborations on the long term the students won't get the idea themselves while they are packed into our curricula and many of them also during a utzer meetings said give us the spark and then we can go on but you have to give us the spark the inspiring spark the one experience of coming together and doing something we would have never experienced before the one guy said it in the Odyssey video Leo we heard about it never done anything like this what is this this is very strange and then they will connect and then it will go on but it's our responsibility to really do so and do it not as an add-on that's my point Mate I'm sure you're longing to say something you have been silent for a long while I was just checking someone wanted to intervene from the attendees I don't know if it I just saw a hand raised but maybe it's no that somebody there sometimes you see things we can't see and they belong to another session if there are questions they would appeal to me on what via WhatsApp all the attendees just walk into our section I believe thank you yes I'm a bit even a bit more critical on on the institutional responsibility of all that because our institutions which are of course very much rooted in the tradition and seeking for the highest quality of outputs and created a sort of structure which is which is a very self-sufficient I would say and and and self-sufficient from a from an artistic and pedagogical point of view and it's already a good case if the if these two two point of views are organically merged but then yes the question where where is the room for for the for the for the inspiration or for the aspirations of of those youngsters who are somehow becoming younger and younger and I mean and even more different by education by social background by by by experiences in the in the digital and non-digital world so I think that there is an increasing gap between what what an institution rooted in the tradition might offer even with the the best intentions and the reality the experience and the aspirations of of young people coming into those institutions but therefore I think it's really crucial to to re-revaluate our our our routines and and and find ways to to to to give more place for for for those people and and therefore it's also I think quite important and it's also the responsibility of the institutions to to realize the the context and to to acknowledge those those potential partners and platforms of learning which are around but not our but which are not institutionalized and I think it's it's it's also it can be a good way to to somehow emancipate those those existing circles artistic circles pedagogical circles initiatives that are that that work for the same purposes but by nature by organizational characteristics are more adapted to to host those kind of experiences which can be as as bad at all individual or or or relating to to small groups of of future artists without involving a whole institutional staff and I and I would suggest also that these kind of inspirations which are which are many faults so that we we all know a bunch of good practices of that kind in our respective fields should be also recognized on the european level and and and I always have the the feeling when when big institutions work together or try to work together these are like big you know elephants trying to to share the space in the zoo and not to hurt each other and you know I think that we also should should allow the the european framework of of cooperation should be more multi-layered and and and should offer a substantial cooperation between partners coming from different sectors like the civil civil sector the youth sector the cultural sector the social sector and and and promote cooperation among them and with existing universities who have definitely the biggest resources and background for that. Thank you very much for this Maté I must correct myself it was Barbara Gessler who was trying to send us a message in the Q&A session sorry Barbara it was hidden behind some kind of thing I don't I don't need Barbara Gessler wrote before Maté spoke we have an individual mobility tool at EU level I portion us that is for culture professionals and we are in the process of setting up a circulation of performing arts platform next to Erasmus but Erasmus remains the remains the go-to instruments for students yeah thank you very much for sharing this with us Barbara we are hopefully looking for all the new ideas and inventions you are continuously working on and always proposing new things yes we have no questions either we are alone in this in the spheres or people are just which I think people are just listening to what we have to say because if we are not really quarreling about no no other questions about anything but rather expanding what what we have experienced and and talk and talk about our our professions I would like to suggest that we share a couple of ideas we might have for the future of our institutions and Maté you were already close to sketching like co-works between institutionalized and non-institutionalized entities if I if I understood you right maybe one of you two Leo or Beata want to propose things yes yes okay well well maybe it's it's a good thing and and I don't know Maté if it's aligned with your idea but we should think and maybe propose something like two or three international production houses for graduated students who have the possibility to come together in in in international co-production platforms to find out their way for maybe a new kind of theater for the future maybe also which is as important as well Regina you mentioned that to connect with audiences maybe new audiences also who are not so so much in the future at the moment for for instance youngsters we really need we were looking for so I would suggest why couldn't we arrange all together and supported by the EU such kind of production houses in in the Netherlands where we had in in the decades before good experiences with that and that is especially not for those who are only academies but but in the first period after graduating and it's also a way for bridging the gap that is often mentioned after after our educational programs to professional life to to arrange a couple of those more or less experimental collective groups on the basis of international co-creating supported by national and EU funds and in my opinion that they should be very should be connected at least with with professional partners in the fields theaters theater companies or maybe also in the background we as as educational partners to to support them to surround them because it's not well it's to make theater to bring it in in in society is is a profession itself so so some guidance and connection with experienced people who are engaged with the ID is important I think what do you think about such an ID who wants to answer I'm afraid Barbara Gessler has left us which I wouldn't like to hear what she says about it yeah she probably say that there are programs you can use for this kind of postgraduate work as we as we all know so maybe it's this is up to us to install and really get it going for what do you think it really reminds me to the French structure they have this jeunesse national which invites automatically all the graduates from the different acting schools of France and and provide them with a sort of safe place for for one or two years and and and also works as a sort of agency in the best sense of the term which helps young people to connect with the with the professional with the diverse network of theaters and also not not only paves the way towards their engagement in in those structures but also helps contributes financially so it's a it's a it's a very useful hub where all the alumni of of of actors or acting schools can can meet up so I think it's a very inspiring example that can be extended on a European level and with the very good Dutch reference of the production houses also I think it's it's it's important to to give resources for for for creation for people who would be virtually not only virtually but physically also part of this this network yeah I'm afraid that that that someone from the EU would say that go for the creative Europe and try to get money from that and this was also one of my problems which we all know that this this only program that that was referenced at the opening speech as well as the only existing platform for for co-financing the year at the European level is already highly competitive so I am what I witnessed the past few years or decades that that the chances for newcomers are constantly decreasing and I think that for the educational purposes some kind of of a fast line or some kind of priority seating would be necessary because it's there's more at stake than just yet another interesting pan-european cultural project but it's really about how those who were trained for becoming the the new generation of artists throughout the country can experience and and and co-create new ways of of productions and and and reflections. Yeah I mean that's that's better you want to say something right? Just say what you wanted to say and then I will. I couldn't interpret your your finger. I think this is one of the main things why I just wanted to make clear that all of us who are sitting here know very well about the very diverse landscape of of funding provided by the EU so it's not a matter of just say we want one more we want one more it really is a structural thing we start to really talk about in all our you know associations we are and and in our networks and it's not solved yet because the problem of or the idea of of of post-graduate collaboration could be a very very valuable one to establish and enhance European co-working because and it we are we are always talking about who gives like a helping hand to start this and get the big elephants also the small ones but also the big big elephants to move and to think about possibilities of hosting of giving venues of you know opening up to this idea and maybe link it to maybe all ETC theatres who are listening to us now say think who can who can host post-graduate work up to three years after they finish studies and you will have something which is normal in medicine you study medicine and then you go to the hospital and work there and it's still part of your part of your academic of your academic career and we badly need something like like this yeah Beata at first I would like to say that in our Q&A there is a note from Kasia yes I just thought okay and going back to our from a discussion is and about this place for post-graduates this is what we also were discussing a few times during our plethora meetings because we knew that there are artists or young artists just who just graduated the studies who would like to develop but the academy cannot get a responsibility for them anymore because we are just having students and are not taking care about post-graduates so that's the first idea and it's very important and that would be crucial to make it but still we have to go back this one step lower and think about higher educational institutions like academies or universities because if we will not prepare students to think about it they will not get and they will not go and they will not use this instrument we still need to work here and find some solutions to encourage them to try to make this research because well they will just finish and they will go to the market they know absolutely and we will we will have to go back to to this idea and elaborate it a little bit more I just wanted to share with everyone what Kasia wrote she wrote it's great thank you so much very empowering to hear about the importance of experiments we don't know the outcomes of I wonder how much for future we should experiment with multilingual theater making now this is a very important key work we didn't speak about it yet because it's it's a it's a big domain everybody is trying to work in and and the theaters are more and more interested in productions that really use this multi-ethnic multi-national and multilingual stories they tell because that's our reality and it should be reflected on the stage so it's we'd better think about training just simply training students in multilinguality because it will be part of the market if I just speak of this of this of this section yeah Leo did you want to add something or Marte to what Beate rightfully said yeah yeah sure sure because Beate are very right if we don't prepare our students during during our programs at the academies they won't go for an international experiment afterwards because it's a hard way to to become an actor or director in only in the in the national markets you know it's it's not an easy way so for them it's also something like yes it's interesting to go abroad and to to step in in a multilingual experiment but if I can choose between an internship with a big theater company and such a project maybe I better go for the internship and and well see if I can give such a pathway better opportunities for me to to to become a good actor you know and to to get a place in the market so in my opinion there's a connection between the work we do in the curriculum and the opportunities we should create afterwards because that creates also a perspective for them during the training programs and the academic programs to to make a further step in their first professional period to go to step in such a multilingual multicultural production house something like that and yes language is is a problem so we can deny that to to to make a beautiful theater based on on dramatic literature language is very important but if you jump over that barrier and you want to make theater about a personal and societal issues that are very actual and you do that with with a company that is multicultural from itself you have to to to step into another kind of theater which is multilingual multidiscipline more or less you will use other theatrical idiom and we discovered like like we did with the poor rich project we we developed in in in in Salzburg in the play that program that that mixing all those languages works works fabulous in in the communication even with the audience you know so so there are lots of opportunities we should discover much more and further than those we are so familiar with and we are so close connected to the high standard of dramatic theater based on literature dramatic literature exactly that's the that's that's the aspect of a theater is not only text on legs but has so many different forms as has been pointed out on several occasions already this morning I just look into the chat from kasha it's also about an idea of failure as a creative opportunity isn't it she kasha is still with the the outcome you do not know about no do i interpret this right delta it's also about an idea of failure as a creative opportunity is it multilingual yes yes exactly well we always say in our academy that the academy as is an idea of a failure as a creative creative opportunity because here you are safe and you can make a mistake and well that's the place to make mistake okay I'm just yeah I really wonder about this this this language issue because of course we hear it very often that using English as a lingua franca it's in itself quite a limitation for most of us for who is not the native language and still now we are sitting in a in a panel where it's four different mother tongues and trying to express ourselves in in English which which makes us which also becomes a sort of limitations because we are using a toolkit which has been you know somehow appropriated but but not not we are not full possessional of that so it's even more relevant when it comes to an educational setting and and therefore I also would emphasize and thinking about what kasha raises that that first of all it's it's not what kind of of language we use to express ourselves on the on the verbal aspect but it's also what what what do we seek for expressing and I think that the the learning of the language the learning of the background of the language is is is even more important and this is what should institutions prepare young people for and this is also what new platforms should be proposed for them to experience it by themselves because when you move to another country of course there is the there might be the language barrier but but it's also that that the the topics the social context the themes the the codes the behavioral aspects are much more mysterious than the language itself and in order to discover deeply and and and and intimate intimately those those those phenomena which then should be somehow expressed by artistic means and language is just one of these these means is is is vital and I think that that that the real challenge is how what what kind of platforms are are are there for young people to to really dive into those kind of of learning situations in contexts which are of course on a european level we like to say that we all are connected in our culture but in in in in fact in the reality the the the realities are are very very diverse and and and and when for an artist to to really understand it it should be a very deep experience and also for for for for young people who who has a a pre a previous experience through through the media I think it's sometimes and it's also my experience with students when you go there and when you meet people and when you work with them it's shocking it's shocking just just the difference between the the the images that that they've been preparing for themselves and and the reality that they are they are encountering on the spot. Maybe I have a I have a question from Sanna I don't know how to pronounce, Sanna is there Grunt Main from the who's watching us on livestream which is a little connected to this she asks how would you imagine an integrated slash an equal selection process of practitioners to be able to work in those type of organizations as mentioned European co-production houses if I understand this right it's asking for who who has access to this no or how do you mix it or how would you select it right or not right would anybody like to answer well how do we imagine it is the access to these production houses. We think about we're thinking about not students but about the lecturers or the supervisors yeah. I'm not quite sure she says practitioners. Okay because the question about of course the question is one we didn't I don't have it in my mind now is this production house only for those who are using it as a production house although we have an artistic supervision on this and there is someone who is looking at it and maybe making some corrections or reflection which is needed all the time yeah so that's that's one thing well my guess might be that well it should be some kind of of the how to say interview let's say and sharing the program of presenting the program of the artist who would like to what kind of research would he like to or she develop but this is a good point about thinking is this production house only a house for production or also a place where we do a reflection on it and who is supervising it. So Ani said in between yes right so we interpreted her question right if I interpret her yes right right and gave gave a hint to a possible answer thank you very much thank you very much Beata. I'd like to do maybe we have to speak about two models we have in our minds which have to do with international co-working also on the EU level so was it again to this question Leo because otherwise I would I only wanted to to just to be added that we have also experience in play with this selection thing so it's very important that those who are interested apply themselves that there is a kind of artistic advisement who can select those who apply on their motivation and their own initiatives and ideas about the framework for such a project and I do agree very much it's not this kind of production house it's not production it's not only focus on production it's very much focused on the combination of development research and production and find and create new connections with audiences because what kind of production house it will be and I very much hope it will be international so at least you want to bring in four five six different backgrounds in such a group but maybe better eight like we did with Beata because that was a rule also at least from every Academy one should participate so that's very important to to make such very basic lines but but then again to to if you want to to work with such kind of models you have to create also free space in in the field of European funding and then at the moment if you apply at the European funds you have to be very specific about the outcomes of your project even the output and how that will be installed in in in the profession etc etc and well I can I can imagine that that that there are good reasons to do so but we now need some more space in those regulations of the EU funds for these kinds these kinds of experiments and international co-creation and I would say they need it now like the the title of our workshop is before I pass the word on to Marte who is busy developing a very specific idea linked to the situation in Budapest I would like to add leave my role as moderator for a moment and just report from one topic apart from the postgraduate work we are busy with in the among our 18 members and that's the idea of of a something like European theater master I'm going back to the idea of free the curriculum and put things in there which are necessarily linked to the studies or can be linked if you wish in a master program so make your art your artistic your artisanal work and then it would be great if we could develop with a couple of universities a model of really mixing curricula not only in the way that students can as other sciences can go abroad and take courses in this or that university you can already do this but that you can choose a formation on your master program where you have to co-create with other students in other universities let it be the three countries you always need for this that you study there you work there you establish a project and you show a project which is at least three nations three other countries students are participating and this will be your master work and this is something you will not as far as I can see it you will not get done from the from the universities there we won't be I can if I speak of my university even if they are willing to they will neither have the money nor the facilities to say we just establish a kind of test master for a couple of years together with other universities because the means are just used up and will be used up even more after lockdown so I'm afraid all these plans will rather go down than come up because we already have the first cuts announced in our university so this would be something if we could like make a I don't know make a kind of initiative group for a European theatre master and ask universities to join and develop this this would be a real great help because again it's a spark it starts somewhere you can evaluate it and then maybe others will join in and we really create a new form of curriculum for our practitioners for our young future artists this is something I would very much like to drop and emphasize and maybe go on talking about this with some of the policy makers because we really strongly believe in the value of an idea like this that was my content part from the Aeutza and Mate would you like to say something about the idea you develop in Budapest right now yeah thank you and you're absolutely right for you know that that that we are facing difficult times and and but I also would hope and and and claim that this whole recovery process that that we are also ahead and and in which arts and education should play a vital role not only because it was very badly affected by all these restrictions but also because because we will enter and we have to enter into a healing process where there are lots of bounds should be treated carefully and in that that perspective arts and culture and education is really a very very important tool so I also would like to see this upcoming period as a chance to really come up with meaningful ideas and get funds for that from the huge EU budgets which were announced earlier and I know that those kind of European projects and international corporations between big institutions it always takes time and it's always meticulously prepared and these are long-term processes but exactly because we are going through different crises this is also an opportunity for us to think and act quickly and and and use these accidents or use these unprecedented moments as as a source of source of inspiration and also building up quick quick structures which sometimes are more resistant than than than than those which were pre-mediated for for for a long time so yes we are we are in Budapest in a in a in a full crisis situation we are facing a moment when when when the new leadership the new ownership of the the university announced that basically they they closed down the university and they don't acknowledge the the current educational scheme so even this semester is invalid for everyone who is in the university and they will open from first of February February new places of learning with new teaching staff and and and and students and teachers will call one by one to to to say whether they would like to join and acknowledge the new setup or not and you can imagine that for the hundreds of teachers and students who have been protesting so harshly this is really not an option so they found themselves in a situation where for for February and for the next school year they have to find an alternative solution and what can be an alternative solution of course we can move out and and and and and meet in in in different places and keep on working together so the professional development in a way could be assured but but by the end of the day there will be no diploma for sure because we cannot distribute diploma without the state recognition and that's how the the international solidarity which is not only a gesture but but the concrete which can translate into concrete terms come into the picture because in Hungary for the coming years if you don't want to cope with that kind of institution which is clearly taken over by the by the politics and there is no alternative ways we have a monopole situation in in in Hungary so only one theater school exists so the choice is very clear for young generations either they cope with that that structure or they try to go somewhere else abroad so what we would propose that the international community should somehow come into the country and create a new framework of a sort of international european university of performing arts with a special affiliate in in Budapest in which a Hungarian students and and teachers can keep on working along with international peers because Budapest is of course a fantastic place to to study at and and and live at and it's really at the center of of the continent so why not use it in a in a in a positive way but it would need a sort of administrative umbrella which which is developed by by those entities who are able and capable to do so and if the EU as such is too big and too slow to move in that direction I think that the the responsibility may lay with the institutions themselves and and they should explore among themselves and together with us whether there is any kind of possibility to set up that kind of of network and whether this network can then successfully apply for additional funds on the european level but this is this is really the only chance if it doesn't happen and that's why we are working so hard with with Christoph who is in this panel from Salzburg and some other other colleagues whether we can do something very quickly because if it doesn't happen it's just it's just over and this whole situation is shrinking and there there just will be one one lesson on all that that that you will have a new university of theater of film arts with the old name but with the truly new content and and I would just warn to be very cautious entering into any kind of international cooperation with with them thank you very thank you very much Marti I'm this is like is like on the one hand it sounds like utopia because you have the you have the vision of just moving out into the into the empty Soros building with the the the European courts you know said that it was illegal to to to empty this university but on the other hand you see that solidarity action can be very fast even with the elephants because the people who are moving at the moment including my university and others and all universities and calling and saying do you need help can we check the curricula can we give diploma how can we give diploma to your students of course in a absolutely legal way as you do it with in Erasmus context contexts checking the points and all this so it can be done quickly if the necessity is there so I think Budapest at the moment is a very good example for as well do another curricula as you're used to and look for a kind of international university of performing arts which can be set up provisionally but it can be set up if everybody agrees to to to invest into it and and put their logistics and their teachers and their facilities in there it can be done it's not that far away and I hope we are going to prove as a also as a community of theater schools that this is a possibility to go and I really see it yeah anybody who wants to yes Beata please so it's still about preparing our students to make these international relations because it may happen our reaction of us as we are here and our universities is because we are working together in iuza in Plata and we have this relations without those relations will not be this discussion and finding any issues and any solving for for buddha situation and students so that's why still we have to go back and really enhancing this international relations between students and academies beata this was the best closing word i could imagine for for for our panel we have another three minutes three minutes left um marty you you you you you breathed you wanted to say something undone no it's fine um because then i would i would like i would like to close this session i'm just looking briefly if there are other if there is anything from the um excuse me i'm just not used to doing it like this is much it's my first no questions thank you very much else i'm really dependent on these tools okay could have done worse um i'm closing but i want to i want to say to everybody who's still watching and listening that for the forum if we want to continue if you want to continue discussions with us we're here and i'm talking to the forum guests guest list participants who are currently with us you're welcome to to continue this discussion um in the in the platform on the stage within the auditorium later on uh there you have an opportunity to meet and talk face to face about the topic we've been discussing this this morning um but first we invite you all to go to the feedback plenary where you can hear what has been discussed in the two other panels parallel um to ours to our session uh on the working conditions of artists and on the accessibility and diversity of the performing arts thank you very much and see you later we go into a short break