 Hi, everyone. I'm Ed Baker. Welcome to the Addiction Recovery Channel, otherwise known as ARC. I'm very pleased today to be here with you. We're privileged to have three leaders in the field of addiction recovery with us today. We have Tammy Bushel, who is the director of the Human Resources Department at Edland Company. We have Peter Espin Shade, who is the president of the Vermont Alliance for Mental Health and Addiction Recovery. And we have Ron Stankovich, who is the community outreach director for Dominion Diagnostics, who also is the co-author of the employer toolkit, which we'll be looking at quite closely today. So thank you. Thank you for joining us, and thank you so much for being on the show, folks. Thanks for having us. It's a pleasure. I'd like to begin the show by developing a context. The American Society of Addiction Medicine in 2019 expanded and revised its definition of addiction. The 2011 definition focused mainly on brain circuitry. The 2019 definition includes stressors in the environment, and I'll go into it in detail now. This is a commentary on the definition, quote, lack of healthy social supports and limited prospects for employment or stable housing can exert significant pressure on brain circuitry of individuals at risk for addiction. These factors influence the depth of vulnerability and can present significant barriers to recovery unless addressed, close quote. So the American Society of Addiction Medicine is saying that barriers to employment can cause stress on brain circuitry that can actually make a person more vulnerable to addiction and can also thwart a person's best efforts at achieving and sustaining recovery. And that's where I'd like to begin today. I'd like to begin with you, Peter, because you have such extensive experience working with people in recovery. I'd like you to offer the viewing audience, and it's a diverse audience, a working definition. What is it? What is it when we say recovery? That's part one. Then part two is in your observations over your years in this field, what have you seen when it comes to people in recovery struggling to achieve recovery and maintain recovery specifically with reference to employment? Great. Thank you. I think that that revised definition is critical. I know in Vermont, many of us operate under Johann Haare's hypothesis that the opposite of addiction is connection. So we used to view recovery simply as abstinence. And abstinence is obviously a central role in all of this. But far more important is connection, is getting individuals in recovery, reconnecting to family, to housing, to employment, to hobbies, to what Gary DeCarolis calls love and purpose. And that reconnection is the definition of recovery itself, and it certainly is the best support we know of to keep abstinence going, to keep things moving along. I was talking to somebody today who was talking about a period in their life when they were in early recovery and they were self-isolating. They'd isolated for like a year, and that really resonated with me as somebody who's in long-term recovery, and we see that over and over again. And one of the great ways to get reconnected and to get purpose back in one's life is work. Work is an inherently rewarding and connecting thing, and it's one of the most valuable recovery supports we have. That's beautiful. That is a beautiful response. I'd like to, you know, move into Tammy's role at Edland. I mean, you had a couple of conversations with Tammy before the show, and you are animated about this. Your enthusiasm about this is just contagious. And it's just so encouraging to see someone in a position as a director of a major company, a very successful company, who has adapted this healthy attitude, this healthy approach to this disease that we call addiction, that people get better, and supporting them in the workplace can be such a substantial variable leading to success. You want to talk a little bit about your experience? Sure. So the reason I'm passionate, and I've shared this story with you, is that a few years ago I went through a difficult time with my own son, who is not really fully in recovery. He's kind of working his way. And as a parent, it was frustrating for me not to be able to fix it for him, as I like to say. But after, you know, getting into the recovery network and understanding what recovery is, and it's not just abstinence, everybody has their own path, that I wanted to do my own part through Edland. And so for me, it was just trying to break down some of the stigmas, and the way I did that at Edland was to share my personal story with my management team. And that was very eye-opening for Edland as a corporation, just because they realize that addiction can affect everybody, anybody. It doesn't matter how you were raised, who you are, where you came from. There is no boundaries, it's just out there. And so once they realized that, we decided, hey, we need to support people. And we just changed our entire culture. And with that, you know, with our interviews, we no longer do a traditional interview of, you know, I'm going to drill questions back and forth to you. It's more of a conversation. Tell me about yourself. Tell me about who you are now and not your past. Your past is your past. You can't change it. And just getting people to understand that we are a second chance employer, and I don't mean that you only get one chance, and that's it. We are there to support you on your path. And so that's kind of how it came about. And what do you see as, what's people's responses to that? How do people respond to that? It depends. I mean, if they're coming from, if it's somebody that like Turning Points has referred to us, and we work closely with them, they know that they can be open and honest with us. And so they don't have that fear. Whereas if it's somebody just coming in off the street on their own, and I ask questions about, so tell me about how come you have some gaps here on your resume, right? And I'm like, you know, I don't care. I don't care about the gaps. I just want to understand who you are and where you've been and what brought you here. Why do you want to work here? And that usually with some encouragement, they will share their story. And then it's about, okay, let's see how you might fit here. And we should give them a tour and we introduce them to other people. We have a recovery coach on site who is there to walk them through and support them. And then we have a resource coordinator on site, which is through the United Way. And then we have EAP, which is off site, but we will also bring EAP on site if transportation is a difficult thing. We provide free bus passes to help them. We can change their schedule. So we try to make things as easy as possible for them during their recovery and to support them continuously. That is something. I just want to stay with that for a little while because I just think it's profound. And for the employers or people who know employers watching the show to kind of get this information out that this is not only possible, but it adds to the value of a workplace and adds to the success of a company. So if I'm your employee and I'm in early recovery and I come to you and I say, you know, my AA group, my special home group meets Wednesdays at noon. So I have to get there and then I like to hang out and talk a little bit after the meeting. And I'm going to need to leave at a quarter to 12 and I probably won't be back until 1.30. I need extra lunchtime on Wednesdays. Can I do that? What's your response going to be to me? Absolutely. Absolutely. We will support you. There's no question. And we do that because we can say to them, okay, we can allow you to make up the time. You can work extra other days so that you still get your full paycheck because that is important not only for us. You know, we need the labor, but also for that person because they have to be able to have that wage in order to maintain their housing or whatever other bills that they have going on. We all have those, right? So if we didn't allow them to flex their time, it wouldn't be a win-win for both. And that's the whole point, is that we want it to be a win-win for both parties. Right. So good. So good. And it must feel good to you, Peter, to hear that they have a recovery coach on board. Fantastic. It really is. You know, because that's what folks in recovery need. They need that unique set of what's going to work for them. Everybody, you know, substance use disorder is just a health condition and we all know that. And so with any health condition, there's some boundaries and some barriers that pop up and we just need to help folks get over those the same way you would if you, you know, had a new hip or had diabetes or whatever it is. And hearing employers like Tammy realize that with just a little bit of coaching, they can hang on to great people is just super inspiring. Yeah. Now, I want to pull Ron in, but also I want to go back to the actual, the culture at Edland, the actual atmosphere at Edland in a few moments. But Ron, so here hearing this, you know, what's occurring at Edland and having had some, the privilege of co-authoring the employer toolkit that deals exactly with this, you know, what kind of feelings, observations, comments, you know, do you have about that? Well, sorry, Tammy, you know I'm going to say this. When we created the first draft of the toolkit, we distributed it to a number of folks and parties and saying, look, this is what we've got. What are we missing? What makes sense? What needs to be tweaked? That kind of thing. But it is in draft form. And Tammy is one person we highly recruited to be part of the Working Recovery Action Team for the Chittenden County Opioid Alliance because of her positive and proactive stance in the culture and environment that she helped create at Edland. So after we had given it to the group, I forgot how the discussion started, but Tammy said, oh, I've already been handing this out to employers, which is exactly the end result that we wanted, and what was really cool about it was Tammy being able to share the interactions that she had with other HR professionals, those desperate to help their employees, but A, did not know what to do and B, did not know where to go to find resources. And in our first year, after getting the grant from GE Healthcare, we did a survey of the Chamber of Commerce and a couple of the questions that we asked and the answers there have helped frame the need for this toolkit. And one of them was, would you hire someone in recovery? And of course you have the outliers, those very willing and those very unwilling, but about 30 to 35% of respondents were neutral saying, I'm not against it, but I don't know enough about it, both recovery and what is substance use disorder. And we thought, well, here's a great educational opportunity. And then the next question right after that is, okay, you hired somebody in recovery or somebody who is, has an active disease, do you know who to turn to and where to get resources? I think it was almost 45% said no. And that was the light bulb that went off for this team is like, we've got a lot of great resources in Vermont, but up until that point, no one had one point or one point of contact where you could go to find these. And that led to the idea of we need to create a toolkit to support employers to do a couple of things. One, address stigma, change how individuals in recovery are viewed in the workplace. But not just those in recovery, what about the individuals who are struggling with substance use? How do we create an environment where it's not only safe to say, I need help, but to make that paradigm shift in terms of employer to employee. Thank you for telling us. We will be behind you to get whatever support you need and guess what your job will be here waiting for you when return, the external stressors of transportation, housing and employment. ASAM was absolutely right in redefining their definition because it's not always about genetic and environmental factors from family. It's about the daily obligations and needs that an individual has in order to leave a healthy and productive life. So that led to this. So long winded answer to your question. It's music to my ears. That's perfect. I think it is music to your ears and our ears and very well said run. And congratulations with the employer toolkit. And for the audience, there will be a slide lingering at the end of the show where you can Google the employer toolkit and get access to it because it is a major advancement in this field. I've read it. I've seen it. And it's a step-by-step how-to. It doesn't leave any stones unturned. And the resources involved in that piece are just, you include just about everything. So it's really a quips employers who might feel frightened or insecure or uninformed. It really strengthens and empowers them. And I want to go into the initiative, the Vamhar initiative in a little while about friendly workplaces, recovery-friendly workplaces. But first, back to that culture that Ron is describing that can occur in a place of employment, that stigma is such a major barrier and is so entrenched in our culture. And to see an employer, a place of employment having worked so far to eradicate stigma and create compassion I think is really so interesting. And I want the viewing audience to hear a little bit about that. That it seems to me that at Edelund you wouldn't be able to succeed the way you are unless you're really doing something about stigma, about the way that people see people with substance use disorder. I'll be honest. We're not perfect. I mean we still struggle every day with perceptions that occur. But I think it's bringing those when I hear somebody who is making a comment that is a little off to correct it, to have a conversation with somebody. I go back to the employee that I have currently who's been in recovery for three years. He's been through the recovery coach training. Him sharing his story with his coworkers is so much more profound than me. Yes, I'm a recovery coach, but I'm the director of HR. He's their peer. And for them to look at him and go, wow, you've really turned your life around. And you are a shining example of exactly what we're trying. That helps change the stigma. And he is proud. And he should be proud. Because he's worked really hard to get there. So it's those everyday things that we try to do but we're not perfect. Like I said, we still struggle. There's days when it's not going well when somebody who is in the early stages of their recovery is really struggling. And it's a lot of the managers or myself who is trying to coach them to say, we're here to help you, but we can't do it for you. You have to meet us part of the way. We'll give you the tools, the resources. But you have to take it and move forward. We can't do it for you. So that's still sometimes a struggle. None of us are perfect and we've got to face this that we'll be dealing with stigma for a few more generations. But we're really making progress. Oh, I agree. And the employer toolkit, the narrative around brain disease, substance use disorder, stigma, compassion is absolutely beautiful. It's poetics like music to my ears. So thank you for that, Ron. My pleasure. And the work that Vemhar does, you know, Recovery Day. That was fun. It was beautiful. How many people were at Recovery Day this year? I think over 200. We had standing room only this year. Over 200 people. The legislature, the governor declaring Recovery Day. It's beautiful. The recovery walk in Burlington every year. I mean, there's so much happening in Vermont. And we should be so proud to be Vermonters of leaders, the kind of support that they need to keep carrying this torch. Keep fighting this fight and eventually to actually eradicate stigma. So people with substance use disorder can be somebody like, I have type 2 diabetes. I need medication. I need to change my lifestyle. I need some accommodations that work. Same exact thing. Exactly. Exactly. Really well said. Thank you for that. Yeah. I'm so proud to be here with you. And that this movement, it's nothing short of a movement, is resonating in Vermont. It's resonating in the counties of Vermont and the communities of Vermont and the regular people of Vermont. This is what's important. It's got to be from the ground up. Yep. And it's really something. So I want to move now into what I think is a really extremely exciting initiative. And I want you to talk at length about it. It's this recovery-friendly workplace initiative. Peter, would you talk about that a little bit, please? Yeah. I think there's a couple of things that folks might be interested about this. First off is exactly what you were saying. Is this, the recovery-friendly workplace movement has also been kind of a grounds up thing. It has not been us in the recovery community going to employers saying you need to be recovery-friendly. We need to figure out this problem, blah, blah, blah. It's been leaders in the business community, leaders in the recovery community coming to us saying we want to do the right thing. We realize there's value to this. We realize that this health condition is just part of the human condition and we want to do the right thing by our employees. Tammy and I were joking earlier about HR directors. HR directors have been working to have recovery-friendly workplaces probably for decades. Working with their employees, helping them get over some of these hurdles with substance use disorder or other health conditions and they know a profound amount about how to care for people while keeping them engaged and employed. Those folks were coming to us saying we've got an epidemic now of this particular health condition of substance use disorder. We want to share what we know and learn from others and create recovery-friendly workplaces. Wow. That was really kind of amazing. It's not one of these top-down initiatives like you must do, what we tell you to do. They're the ones who are sharing best practices with us. We're sharing recovery best practices with them. I think there's tremendous promise. It's almost like the creation and the public awareness about Vemhar and your role in recovery gave this particular group, HR people, a place to go. Before you, there was really no place for them to go. There was the phenomenal work of the toolkit we've been talking about and I think that folks have heard about that and have seen some of the great examples at Edland and at TwinCraft and many, many, many other employers who are currently doing progressive recovery-friendly work and now we're hearing statewide that folks want to learn from this stuff. What's unique about it? I know it's in its beginning phases but what kind of concepts are shaping it at this point? I think there's two main things and they're all rooted in recovery coaching. As we've been discussing, there's no one-size-fits-all recovery plan for someone that's not like, oh, here you go. That's all recovery coaching is going to be the way forward we believe for long-term recovery. What's unique about this plan is we are going to see that employers have recovery coaches that HR directors, managers, coworkers have a recovery coach they can turn to and say, hey, I have some questions about my employees, everything from how do I know if they're still using to the more common questions which are how can I be the most supportive as possible? So I think that's going to be a nice sort of innovation that's coming out of this and then for the employees themselves, we want to see that every employee, whether they're working at one of our flagship corporations like Edland, have a recovery coach or if you're just working for a local landscaper with a staff of three that you get a recovery coach. So we're trying to bring people together thanks to the leadership of others we're saying you need to bring people together and then aligning employers with recovery coaches and employees with recovery coaches and build a simple, Vermont-sized system that is going to realize that. I think there's great promise. Why I know there's great promise is recovery coaching is an evidence-based practice. Because of stigma, we didn't even know what to do with recovery necessarily because back in the day, it was all underground. And now that we're bringing evidence-based practices and bringing some light to this, we know that we can bend this curve. We really can. We can bend this curve. We can. I like that. And it's bending towards some progressive, thoughtful justice and health for people. That's beautiful. For the viewing audience again, we can bend this curve. I like that. The link to the show is available on the CCTV site. So for the viewing audience, if you're just a regular person and you're watching the show and you know an employer and you want to give the employer access to the show, send them the link to the show so they can watch the show. At the end of the show, there'll be a lingering slide with access to the employer toolkit. If you want to get in touch with any of the guests, email me. My website will be at the end of the show. Email me and I'll put you in touch with our guests. Peter and Ron and Tammy, this is a seminal point in the evolution of recovery. This is a very, very special moment. And anything I can do to support you, I will do. This is very, very special. And it seems like it actually has traction. Is that the feeling that you have, Ron? I do. If the one positive thing that has come out of this horrific opioid epidemic is it has, I believe, forced people to take a step back. I find it impossible to talk to an individual who does not have a family member or a friend or a co-worker impacted in some way, shape or form by this disease. And it's the disease aspect, as Peter calls it, really, it is a health condition and it is to be treated no different than hypertension, diabetes, or any other potentially fatal disease. It's about proper health care, but that's only found when hopelessness is removed. Support is showcased, and as Peter was talking before about the Johan Hari approach, the opposite of isolation is connection. And the only way that connection can happen is if individuals understand that substance use disorder, it's not a choice. You don't wake up one day and say, you know what, I want this substance to rule every aspect of my day for the rest of my life. It's not a moral failing. And for many folks, they're hit with the genetic as well as the environmental factors and that creates a petri dish where substance use disorder can grow. So, and what we're finding is that it's changing the dialogue to a degree because it's all about causing controllability. You know, ten years ago, well, Ron, you chose to drink, so you caused this problem and you could control it. Why don't you just stop? When you utilize that paradigm, it creates stigma that you caused this problem. It was your choice. Guess what? You got to deal with it. But when you look at another fatal disease, where an individual is viewed, well, you didn't choose cancer. You couldn't control having cancer and therefore you didn't cause it. We treat individuals with other fatal diseases like the truly remarkable and wonderful people they are. They're survivors because they had the support and they also had the internal fortitude to step forward and get help. Ten years ago, folks with substance use disorder did not have that luxury but back today, many will not self-disclose, both those in recovery and those facing an act of addiction who want help will not share that for fear of how they're going to be judged, how they're going to be spoken to directly or hear say, well, so-and-so said this about you. Who wants to deal with that? I just want help. But if this is the reaction I'm going to get, I'm just going to continue to do what I'm doing. So it has to be communal, on a local, state, national and worldwide level that if we are going to judge an individual, let's do it factually. Let's look at it from an evidence-based perspective. Just as substance use disorder is progressive, more importantly, so too is recovery. That with the proper support, with the love, with the connection, an individual who chooses a life of recovery not only lives a wonderful life but they contribute back to the community. And the last point I'm going to make is one of the things when we created this toolkit, you get to folks like Tammy, that's an easy sell. But what about the employers who, well, what's in it for us? Well, I'm glad you asked that. I'm going to tell you the answer from the National Safety Council. And I'm going to read the first one because I want to get this correctly. What the study found is that employers who are supportive of the treatment produce a cost-saving, exceeding costs by a 12-to-1 ratio, 12-to-1. So from an economic perspective, you're not only doing the right thing, but it makes sense from your company to support your employees. What they also found is that employers who are supportive in this regard, absenteeism drops by 36%. 36% reduction in absenteeism. The lack of productivity affects the bottom line of the company. They also found that turnover decreased by 13%. And what I really found truly cool, so if you're wondering if you want to hire somebody in recovery or not, individuals in recovery are the least likely subgroup to leave their employer. For a variety of reasons, the ability to take care of my family, but a big part of it is about loyalty and gratitude for being given that second chance and not just given that second chance, but an employer who's got the tools and resources to support you on your journey. Recovery's not linear. It can look like an EKG at points, especially in the first year. And that's why it's so critical that employers understand and have the tools to support an individual, because slips do happen. It's part of it. Any disease, there's going to be steps forward and steps back, and it's different with substance use disorder, but when people say, well, I'm afraid of a relapse, well, folks in recovery actually relapse less than other diseases like asthma and hypertension. Well, thank you. Thank you, Ron. And it's a beautiful way to begin to end the show and those statistics that are so encouraging and so positive, you know, reflect quality of life, quality of life for people in recovery, quality of life for people connected to people in recovery, and quality of life really for the whole social environment. You know, I think Peter, one of the things that you said early was the quote that the opposite of addiction is connection. And I think about that. And it's a simple statement, but when you look at it, the connection really needs to be between us. The people, service providers, people with resources, people offering services to people with substance use disorder, the better we connect, the better we orient ourselves to science and connect to science. The more effective we are, it's our responsibility to create portals of connection for people with substance use disorder. They don't know how to connect because the brain is impaired. If we can connect and then develop ways to allow them to connect with comfort, this is, you know, a large part of the key. And I really, I see you doing that at Edland, and I really want to emphasize that. And your work, Juan, with the employer toolkit, paves the way for that. And your continued devotion to this population over quite a few years now speaks volumes to that. You've connected, you've set the stage for many, many people to connect. There's so many beautiful people in recovery. It's such a joy. It's not only an honor but a joy to work with these folks who just have such great energy, and it's just beautiful. It's a beautiful thing. I just have to go back to recovery day. The feeling in that room is just jubilant. And, you know, it's contagious. So I would like to end the show now. And, you know, with closing comments, I'll begin with Ron and then come over to Tammy. So closing comments to the viewing audience, you know... I think I used my closing comments earlier. I guess the only thing I would ask anybody viewing the show or any employer is to please have an open mind and take prejudice, put it in your desk drawer, and view the individual for who they are, not what you may have heard through the rumor-vill that somebody who uses is X, Y, and Z. This is a human being who is afflicted with a health condition, and has come upon all of us to wrap our arms around in support. Because if it were you or your family member, what would your hopes and aspirations be? And we need to remember that that person is someone's father, someone's mother, someone's husband or wife, a grandparent, a son or a daughter, a close friend, a co-worker, and the list goes on. They're not statistics, and they are not something that should be viewed from a negative standpoint, but how we as a culture need to wrap our arms around and support in every way possible. And if you are, well, what's in it for me? Well, the more folks we have in recovery, the fewer who have an active disease look at the reduction in costs, the financial costs that a society will incur, and look at the benefits they will gain by somebody who is contributing to society. Thank you, Ron. Thank you. Thank you, Peter. Yeah, I think just gratitude. You know, we've been talking about, you know, shining light on things and how that's really how we remove stigma. When you shine light on things, it not only sort of kills, you know, mold and disease. It also allows beautiful things to grow. And there have been some real leaders in the recovery movement before there was even a recovery movement. Employers who are trying to do the right thing, people who are in the vanguard of putting these ideas together. And, you know, as we slowly remove stigma, we're going to see a lot of beautiful things growing. And we're just really grateful to the, you know, to the folks. We're standing on the shoulders of giants of people who set this up for us. And we need to honor them by just keep moving in a really positive joyous way. Keep moving in a positive joyous way. Thank you. Thank you. I would agree with Ron. I was going to say something very similar. But as an employer, one I would agree, keep your mind and your heart open. And if you still aren't sure, if you still have trepidation, use the toolkit. There is a great information in there about bonding, which helps relieve some of that stress for an employer if they're afraid, for whatever their afraid-ness reason is to hire somebody in recovery. You won't regret it. It is an amazing thing for both parties. So I just want to say that I hope everybody will jump on board. Thank you. Thank you. So there you have it. This is where we are today. And this is light years. Light years from where we were yesterday. This is a beautiful thing that's happening in our culture and that we have three leaders here with us. And there are many more leaders out there working every day non-stop to advance this cause. So thank you for joining us today. And you know, copy the link and spread the program. Give this show to as many people as you know to keep this thing moving forward joyously. Joyously. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing.