 Okay. Good morning, everyone. Everyone's bright and early. I hope everyone's all nice and caffeinated or got their tea, whatever it is. It's a pleasure to see you all. Thanks for joining us. It's a real pleasure to welcome Carlos Mingeth back to GSAP. Carlos is an alumni of the CCCP program. And one of those people who had a, you know, when he was at GSAP, we all already knew that he was going to do great things. And of course, you know, he did and he went and he was at storefront for some time as a curator there. And then co-curated the Oslo Triennial of architecture, which brought him into the sphere of Scandinavia. And then he became chief curator at Arcdes, which is the architecture museum of Stockholm and Sweden, the National Museum. There he very quickly set up some incredible shows, a number of publications, which are all listed in his biography, but some incredible shows, having to do with some of the pressing issues that were happening in Sweden, but also more globally, social, political, environmental issues and how they really bear upon architecture and how architecture can influence those issues. And in particular, he became very interested in the north of Sweden. And the north of Sweden, you know, Sweden, like Norway is a very, very long country and was essentially, you know, inhabited by native peoples and was colonized very much like the west of America was colonized by, let's say, white Europeans. The north of Sweden was colonized as well during the 19th century and they founded a city there, which was a mining city called Kiruna. And Carlos became very interested in it because they were in the process of undermining their own city, they were literally digging out the city. And entered into, has just put up a really amazing exhibition, which I think just came down on all of the issues that this city's undermining brought up and the plan to move the city away from the mine. It raised all sorts of questions about preservation, which we thought were just so interesting and this is why we invited Carlos. Of course, this is a kind of managed retreat. And it is not the same as a climate change cause for managed retreat. But you as you will see the kind of tools and the questions that come up in managed retreat have to do with economics have to do with social attachment to place. And those are the same whether you're having to retreat because of climate change or you're having to retreat for other reasons. And so methodologically, the kind of methods and systems that were put in place in Norway really are a kind of sorry that I say Norway and Sweden were are really a model for the the rest of the world, and thinking about how to do this. So it's really a great pleasure to welcome Carlos back to Columbia and in this virtual setting. And Carlos, I'll just hand it over to you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you so much for her for the introduction and thank you for the invitation. It's an absolute pleasure to be to be talking to the, well, in the in the in the school that it's so important for me but also about questions of preservation that I really became very interested in in those issues precisely by by being at Columbia by meeting also you and by really really thinking about how present and how relevant questions of preservation and in contemporary architecture today. And definitely some of those thoughts have been very relevant when when I was like starting to develop the research around issues and all the connotations that the current locations is experiencing. So thank you thank you so much and hello to everybody in the audience. So I'm going to share my screen so we can we can go through for a presentation I prepared. And we can see a little bit of about Kiruna. So here. Okay. So, so yeah, Kiruna forever. And that's the title of the exhibition and the and the project that that was saying, I've been working, I've been working on for like, since I arrived to Sweden that was like a maybe three years and a half ago. And it's, it's connected precisely with with some of the things that Jorge was saying like I used I organized like the Oslo architecture three and Ali with a with a group of creators. And I started to really understand, like, to be interested in the north as as a project like the north as a place where lots of things are happening and when I when we are talking about the north here is like the north of the north. And this is a, this is the Arctic. Kiruna is a city that is located in the Arctic in Sweden, so it's like a very far away from a Stockholm is a very long country. And, and definitely, and we like when looking at the specific questions that were happening in Sweden we recognize that Kiruna was a place where lots of different issues were happening at the same time connected to natural services connected to attachment connected to to questions of preservation but also questions of land ownership and indigenous population indigenous land rights in the in the region. This is an image of the exhibition that we we closed in this last February, and was like a trying to present all these different perspectives all these different voices and views that are at play in Kiruna, because Kiruna is this city. This is an image of the city of Kiruna that is basically built around the mining efforts that this is like Kiruna but it is the mount Kiruna where they were the mine is located. I don't or mine is like the biggest underground, I don't or mine in the world is a state of mind so like this, the state of Sweden owns the mind like the extraction processes and also of course the export classes. The state exports nationally and internationally is one of the biggest exports of Sweden, like really getting back a lot of money to to a state holders and basically to returning to all taxpayers in Sweden. But Kiruna is experiencing, as I said, like one of the, what we believe one of the biggest and like processes, urban transformation processes in recent Swedish history, because he's being located the mine is has grown so much is like he's is growing is is digging at such a big level that like the ground the formation that the mine is producing has started to jeopardize the structure of the city, especially the city center that it's what we see in the foreground of the photo. And basically the municipality in coordination with the mine company and of course the state gave green light in 2009 to to start like the process of relocation of the city center and therefore the city itself. The, the ground the formation has been growing over the years at such a level that basically this is an image from 2018. So all these like, like a whole that the mine has produced is actually growing and growing and growing and already affecting the first buildings that are in the first line. Closer to to the mind, this is the headquarters of the of the mind. And, and so we can see some images of like the basically the the status of things in 2019 again this is a process that is ongoing like these today, they're like all all these buildings already are demolished because a third of the population have to relocate. They are moving to another, another area of the city or to the new city center. There are a series of buildings that are being or demolished or moved. This is, for example, a heritage building a heritage house built by Gustav Tickman, a very important architect at the beginning of a center in Sweden that is being relocated to a new area of the city. This is like a lot of housing blocks have been demolished and another area that's building that's listed building that is being moved and relocated an area that is actually where all these houses those are like mining houses from the beginning of the century of the 20th century, that have been all like moving to the same area so they are kind of building like a quote unquote historical site. And, but, and this, this for example is them, this is the plan this is the new plan of Kiruna that was a competition and international competition that there was one way by white architects and health and architecture. And we can see, we can see here like what I mean by the location, this is like the area image of the mine, this is like the specific factory like basically where all the treatment on the treatment plan is. The mine of course is like is underground but we can see all these holes that are produced by like the ground that is being basically swallowed by the earth. And we can see like the areas of affection of the of the of the mine how that is like starting to really affect and reach like the first areas of the city. The plan that was like presented by in the competition and won the competition and that's the plan that is being developed right now is that basically the new city center of Kiruna is here. And the architects have imagined that by 2100 the what we know as of Kiruna will be basically like like located demolished and the city will be be will be growing in this direction. So, and this is like the new city center has been like started to be built already like the first buildings are already an app. This is a photo from 2018 today. Actually the buildings around this town hall this is the new town hall of the city is already surrounded by new buildings housing blocks but also cultural buildings etc etc. But all of this is happening in a land that has been inhabited by my linear by the indigenous population of the region that are savvy. So, all these, all these, all these different elements. And as I said, we tried to really bring like a specific, like understanding of the different voices a different perspective of what is going on with the location, but also trying to give bring some light to the historical and geographical context, because it's not. When we talk about Kiruna, we realize through the process that actually is not any building any city that has been built on this on the side of a mining effort is a very specific city. For example, we were looking at a specific geographical context, one of the, one of the lines of investigation of the project was to, and trying to understand what are the tangibilities of the, of the, of the mining industry, both locally originally and internationally so we commissioned to a team that is the one buying a one band and desing and he'll buy yourself to, to, to work precisely on what is what is the, the journey what is the journey that the stars here in this is the image on the top of the mountain where where the mind. Like treatment plan is to, to like to understand like what is the geographical location but also what are what are the traces of that iron. That is extracted in Kiruna, in, in the different construction sites around the world so basically they could find these are like a series of posters that we represented in the exhibition research posters that they trace back like how the nine, the item in Kiruna is actually could be found in the, in the subway in London in the construction site in the materials that are used in the, in the subway in London, or in the material that covers like the oil pipes that are in the Gulf of Mexico, for example, or in the high rises off of Dubai, for So, so clearly like the impact that has like in terms of starting from architecture and finishing in architecture and it's, it's, it's both local and international, but also, and it was also a way to understand the historical context of where this is the, this is a map produced by Adolf Zavok and Maristeva that working at Lulea School of Technology at the time, and then they basically mapped out how the location of Kiruna, Kiruna is the K in this map, and is actually part of what is called the North Potnian technological mega system that is an entire network of mines of of industrial settlements of power stations and railroads that go from Lulea, Lulea in the coast of Sweden to Nordic in the coast of Norway. Those were made precisely to be able to develop the settlements, produce the exploitation of the land, distribute and transport the material to the ports and those ports were capable to transfer the material abroad. And so, so, so, so Kiruna is also a form of, of looking at the region, but Kiruna is also is being relocated, but also is destabilized in many different scales, for example, we were also looking at the work of hands like Narmapisen that is a semi artist that has been devoting his life, basically to map out Sapmi that is like the region that some people like live in, that is a region that moves from Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia. And, and what when we, when we look at those maps that was presented in the exhibition, we cannot find the word Kiruna, what we will find is the word Giron that is like the name that is, is used by some people for for for the city. So, like, the, the city is being relocated the city, the, the, the materials are being circulation, but also even the names and the, and the identity of the city is also being this in a, in, in, in, well, in a, in an imbalance, no, in, in, in changing engines and stuff. Like, and that comes back to, to some of the documents that we could find of the, of the origin of, of the first drawings that we could find of representing Kiruna or representing the landscape that Kiruna, or Kiruna is located today. And this is for example, a map that was included also in the exhibition that is a map from 1736. This is the first time that like the Mount Kiruna, but that mountain that we have we saw in the first image that mountain was today like basically completely broken cut out because of the mining efforts. This is the same mind that is being represented here, the same, sorry, the same mountain that is represented here. And the first time that the mountain is represented is precisely through, the representation of the landscape with a core with a body of gray area here that already indicates from the first time that it is iron included in that area. This, in that area, this is like a geological expedition, this is a document that was done for a geological expedition that was supported by the king of Sweden. And was a was a way to, to, well, to study the land and study the composition of the land and precisely after this document. There is the first efforts produced by the king of the kingdom of Sweden to start understanding that land not as a, as an area that was like unknown as it was before with some economical exchanges, but very few. It was understood to be understood as a place of resources, a place where that needed to be studied, needed to be controlled, needed to be claimed, exploited and developed. Like some years later in 1847, we could find also this document that is like a claim map is a map that indicates how those those sections of the mountain. In this case, this is the Alivari Malvedi, a very close by body of war to Kiruna, that with a very similar story that basically claims the land in order to be exploited. And that, like that process that lead that line of work ends up being in the first settlements of in the first industrial settlements, and around the body of war that is this this great lines over here. The first industrial settlements that are built on the site of the iron body in order to be mining the surface at the beginning. And this is a, this is a, this is the beginning of Kiruna, this is like the beginning of what we know today as the city of Kiruna, this is like the first settlements of that of that project. As I was saying, like what is interesting about about the city of Kiruna is that it really is a settlement that becomes an important city for Sweden. Because like, because we can, we could trace back how from the very beginning at the beginning of the century, like the city of Kiruna understood as a place where the most important architects and designers and artists are going to be working with the city, they are designing like buildings and thinking about Kiruna as a place that has like an image has a projection to the rest of the country. From those settlements that we have seen that are like very, very like a basic settlements, industrial settlements at the beginning of the century, automatically, and somebody like Petal of Halman and Gustav Pikman to the most important urban planners of the time. They imagine what would be like the, the urban, urban plan of the, of the city. Gustav Pikman would be also building like a, like a wooden church that is still today in Sweden, one of the most important wooden buildings, largest wooden buildings in the country. And like somebody like Helmer Osloond, Axel Tornemann, Carl Wilhamsson, they are all like first level artists of the time that I invited to Kiruna to represent the industrial effort and industrial like advancement of the city. So we kept on asking ourselves when we were doing this project is like why, why somebody like Carl Wilhamsson, like one of the most important artists of the time, like goes to Kiruna far, far away in the north of the north to draw, to do a painting like this one. And we come back to that argument like the argument that Kiruna becomes an image that legitimizes some certain forms of colonization, but also represents a specific forms of like an image production for Sweden is like as a place that really projects that it has a symbolism that goes beyond the needs of the mining efforts, it operates at another level. So there is like a kind of like an important value that is implemented in the city that has to do with not not the needs of the workers, not the needs of the exploitation of the land are connected to a state values to a state directions to the idea of how the state is perceived and projected to internally but also externally. And that continues to happen during the entire 20th century we there is like a digital all collections from the museum. There is like a series of projects during the 1960s that are like of very high quality Hakuna very like a built like a, you know, like a very banal building this is just like, you know, like a hoisting and separating plant, but is built designed build and photographed and disseminated as a work of art understood as part of a project of modernization of industrialization of the country and represented as such in many different magazines, or the LKB. And that's the name of the state company headquarters located in front of the mine in front of the mountain and like also kind of representing the modernity and as arriving to the to the north of Sweden. And, and there are many other examples of looning of Dahlström like industrial, industrial buildings that really like, like, would have been completely banal in other cases in the case of, of this battle that are like mining export efforts like in the same area. They are, they all have that kind of level of symbolism and years to it. The same happens with with Ralph Forskin a very important architect from the UK that moved to Sweden and developed like an entire practice and entire body of work connected to the north and taking Kiruna as the petri dish to imagine new forms of, of housing and urban planning in the in the Arctic, of course, with certain tropes of the north as that exotic space. So, I mean, we can spend lots of time talking about Ralph Forskin and the north. But the reality is that he also developed an entire practice, an entire distribution of materials also he became very, very, very well known precisely by the ecological Arctic town that he was inspired based on the studies that he did around Kiruna. So again, Kiruna is that space that's that city that many architects have imagined the future with. And, but at the same time, was was a place where all these all these transformations of the man were being produced. Well, first can end up building a couple of buildings one in his papawara. And today, and today is actually half of the building so like there is also like a big, big question, precisely, very present, very present in the discussion today of what happens with all these buildings that had great ambitions, but today, for example, the half of this building is already demolished. And because papawara is a very, very small town with even migration questions. And there is a big, big polemic and discussion about what happens with these buildings that are like today having like a different attitude and a different relationship with the population. And in Kiruna itself Kiruna in Kiruna Ralfersken build very recognizable building housing, housing blocks in the city center that are core or driven and this building that is considered one of the best buildings of Ralfersken in Sweden, it's going to be demolished very soon. If it's not next year it will be the following the following year, they are located in the in the area very close by to the mind. And we argue that actually that process of understanding Kiruna's that kind of symbol symbolic effort like in between the like giving goods for society but also legitimizing certain process of sacrifice that the area is producing. That continues today, this is like the new city hall, the new building, also an international competition inviting like many different offices internationally to imagine what the future of Kiruna will be are participating in that process and building a new city. And I mean like the, yeah, so the location of Kiruna is one of the most important European project as I was, as I was saying in recent Swedish history, and not only because of the complex operation of moving an actual city but also because it mobilizes critical questions of global relevance. The citizens of Kiruna have been forced to face extraordinary philosophical questions. What constitutes a city, where do I belong, what should we preserve what should we sacrifice big questions that conflate conflate transcendental issues between the old and the new between what needs to be demolished, and what needs to be built about who owns the land and who belongs to the city losses and hopes this placement and attachment. The location demands of reconciliation among different communities, and also among different communities needs, some of them struggling to detach themselves from a historical servitude and to the mind, but also some of them diametrically opposed to the fact that the land is being exploited at all, the challenges of building a new city also poses questions about the reasons for the relocation in the first place. Why should we prioritize the extraction of minerals over the stability of a city and its citizens. And what what are the limits of economical growth, how much longer can we continue digging. And one of the cases that I think for this composition can be interesting is the, the old town hall in Kiruna. This is a, this is an image of the old town hall that is a town hall that was designed by Artur von Esmalienzi. You know, like 60s, 70s, very, very important architect in Sweden, the building received, like it was, it was finished in 1963 and received like the most important architectural national award in 1964 the Casper, Casper selling price. And the building was really incredible with lots of different collaborations with many relevant artists with craftmen, craft women that were like first level in Sweden, and with a lot of different details in the building. And it was, it was listed as heritage, soon after, and, and, and also was very, very well, like a perceived by the, by Kydunians themselves like I was a place that was very well used with lots of events. It was like Kydunians used to say of it like that was like the living room of the of the city. Unfortunately, the building was located in, in, in an, in an area that was very, very close by to the ground deformation zone of the mine. And so after many, many different litigations, the heritage listing was lifted. And then, and the building was demolished in 2019. These are like a couple of photos of my class time and that we commissioned like precisely to document also like the demolition of the building for the collections at the museum. And like the, the, the, and this is an image of the exhibition because one of the, one of the big efforts that we produced for the exhibition is precisely this happened in the middle of the organization of the exhibition. This was 2019 we were about to open like a year after. And so, like, in order to really address this question, we, we hope, like the exhibition had an entire area of the exhibition that was called origin heritage that was precisely addressing what are the, what are the conflicts that really produce questions of in the city and taking the town hall as a case study. Because like an interesting point about the building is that it was not only an amazing piece of architecture with a really special like features architecture features and architecture like elements. It was like a place where many different events happened. As I said, like it was very well used by the community, but but also it was like a place where that served as a, as a, as the, as the scenario for very important events. So in, in, in the exhibition we could in collaboration with, with the community municipality we could save some materials from the demolition so so so the balconies that you see here the textiles, the lambs, the, like the, the entire lectern, the materials of the the sculpture balcony, all the curtains, all these are like a they are saved salvage from from the demolition, like a reconstructed in real scale in the in the exhibition, and then returned to Ketuna to be reused in other in other buildings, organized by the by the municipality. And we decided to to reconstruct exactly this section of the building, because as I was saying, some of the events that happened in the building were very transformational for not only for Ketuna but also for the region and for Sweden. And especially there was there was a very important event in 1969 that our series of general assemblies that happened in that building and that were holding all the miners strike, and that it's, and it's known by all streets by the great minor strike of the 69. So we had a series of, like a series of days, 57 days while cat minus strike of 1969, which coming with with miners from, from Ketuna from his battle era from my very it that we're all assembled together in the building in order to, to have like a general to make decisions and to push for decisions to the to the company of labor rights that is still today are in place in Sweden. Right, so, so we, we commissioned to include Hanson an artist from Sweden that has been working precisely on questions of minus strikes before. To do a film to do a piece that could be, could be a reconstruction of those days of those events that happened in the building, like holding hosting these discussions this strike so really putting into emphasis the importance of also not only the cultural details and physical components of the of the reconstruction on the building itself but also the events that it held as a, as a, as a building and emphasizing like the importance of preserving at certain level actions and performances that are part of the, of the history of the building. But we, what we do is that we reconstruct the entire section of that of the of the building where like the lectern were done were precisely the, the, the, the speeches that were given and were held so this is this Mike is, is this Mike and with the same lectern like the original lectern that we could bring from Ketuna from them, like say from demolition. And we presented the film exactly at the spot where you will be walking upstairs positioning yourself as if you would be talking to the general assembly, and you would see the reconstruction of that those days in that, in that screen. And the, and then there was like a like another level of the project that was also including like a performance that was also that's a work by England Johansson as well, that basically is like the reenactment of the speeches that were given in the strike in the minor strike. In Ketuna in 1969 by Sara Lindman that is like a super important like a writer in Sweden and talked in like in as part of those general assembly days. So, and so this is this is a case of, of how, like, you know, like a building that has like a specific story. So we try to really address what are what are the implications what are the questions of sacrifice and saving and preserving and keeping and including in the in the certain legacy and certain memory of of the discussion. Through the through the exhibition. And a second, a second line of work with preservation can be also understood with the work of your mango part of the project was also to commission new work commission new projects for for the for the exhibition. So we collaborate with your mango mango is today. I think like one of the most important Sami architects that are practicing. He's a he's an architect but also operates with architecture. And he's a great speaks person for the role of some architecture in contemporary architecture today. And he, he developed like he has been working with a with a long term project that is called you can be that is the Sami architecture library that is a is a is a nomad is a movable moving library that basically moves into different places opens up everywhere it goes and has like a more than 200 like volumes connected to architecture to Sami architecture to indigenous culture to indigenous architecture. And it serves also place of discussion a place of addressing the issue of the relevance of some architecture, and we invited him to, to have like another another iteration of the project. This was like independent here so we we we decided to move that that that library to to the virtual space so you can actually visit it is like a good to be that space and and is a way also to think about questions of preserving specific forms of culture and specific forms of knowledge for for Joe is very important to to think of this project as a place of keeping together certain knowledge and growing knowledge together about some architecture but also understanding and discussing what are the possibilities for for for some architecture to be relevant to be relevant today and to be important in the questions of how do we deal with nature how do we deal with resources and we are like like, as I was saying like the location of goodness along and complex threat going back hundreds of years and reaching from the northern lands of Sweden to the rest of the planet. So very real and striking sometimes dramatic experience for those living in the city, the dialogue around the relocation continues to have multiple strong just opposed often often contradictory perspectives. Here is the greatest dilemma, Kiruna is not only being relocated three kilometers, it is moving at a time in which Sweden and the planets northern regions face fundamental change initiated in 2004 beginning to find its forms into 2020 and plant until 2100 the current location construction and definition of the new city in the Arctic embodies the dreams and aspirations of contemporary Sweden. Kiruna confronts us with the need to totally redefine our values when it comes to how we address global warming and reinterpret the notion of attachment in a world of forced and non forced migration. It calls upon to renegotiate with indigenous peoples and to reconfigure our understanding of sovereignty. Ultimately, it forces us to address the ways in which we privilege economic growth above all else. We are witnessing how the relocation of Kiruna a challenge initiated 15 years ago is finally taking shape. The first buildings are being built, and the new city center begins begins to become a reality, but we should not consider the project finished or untouchable. Kiruna embodies the hopes and dreams of the 21st century and shows us the tools we need to equip ourselves here and elsewhere to face the challenges ahead. Fantastic. Carlos, thank you so much. This was what a number of issues that you put on the table that are really significant for us to think about. And we have a little bit of time for Q&A. So those of you that are on the call. I was just going to say, please, just type your name or, you know, if you want to ask a question in the chat, and then we'll call on you. You know, just say, I don't know, stack or question or whatever you want to say. I think that's the easiest way for us to handle this as you think about, you know, question or a comment or a thought. But I'll just get us started over here as everybody mulls over the, you know, their questions to talk a little bit about this question of your I wanted to hear more about this strategy that you put on the table of reconstructing but also salvaging certain key pieces of the that in a sense, the their pieces that can represent or encapsulate or be the charge of a symbol, you know, of the whole building, the lectern and other things and then you also reconstructed around that to kind of supplement that object with enough so that it could do what you wanted it to do. That's a, you know, a very interesting experimental preservation practice. You presented others in terms of the kinds of works that some of the artists did but I wanted to focus on that one in particular. The idea of saving a piece of the building, moving it to a different place and activating it through performances actions and so on as part of the museum. That is not if you go to a traditional let's say art exhibition. Normally the objects are looked at they're not used and performed. So it's quite a radical, you know, from a museological standpoint it's quite a radical, you know, method. So I wanted to hear more about, you know, how did you come upon that where was it, you know, what were you trying to do and how does it sit with people you know did people understand the importance of this object that they latch onto it what happened to the object afterward I want to hear all about it, you know, beginning to end. Yeah, yeah, I mean like, yeah, I mean, it all begins with like the question of circulation in Kiruna is very important, but like a extraction in Kiruna not only is about the iron that is taken out from the ground and exported somewhere else. There is there is a lot of dynamics that have to do with periphery and center. So Kiruna is in the north of the north and it's, it's, it's the people living in the north, they have a very strong perspective and experience of how like a knowledge economy and materials are being extracted. Right, and that the value always ends up being in Stockholm in the capital and that relationship between the center and the periphery was very strong from the very beginning when I was, when I was doing research for the project. So, so the, the idea of establishing specific forms of circulation that was going in and out from between Kiruna and Stockholm were very important from, from, from the very beginning. That's why, for example, we developed like an entire collaboration with a museum in Kiruna, like the Consmos et in or that is a museum that is located in the new city center actually. And there was like a lot of exchange of information of materials. So, for example, there was like a lot of questions about original materials that the museum had that the Kiruna municipality didn't have about buildings that were done in Kiruna. So there was like a lot of work of producing certain form of exchange between the two institutions, right. So that, that idea of circulation that idea of how things move and how objects like travel from one place to the other was like very much into the into the table and and and and basically was a form of that's why we call it origin heritage because in the middle of doing the research basically will receive the information. Okay, the build the town hall is going to be demolished is going to happen is going to happen. It's a very approved is going to be happening in the next months. So, so, so we felt that that that story was like a very important to tell very, very. It was a good way to really bring up to the public discussion, something that is very striking that a building at that level was going to be demolished and is a building that all of us in Sweden have been supporting by giving giving it like a national award. I thought that the contradictions that were produced encapsulated in the building were really, really powerful and really capable to tell like the importance of architecture, the importance of preservation, how preservation is connected to all of us is not something that some specific professionals deal with. It's something that citizens have some sort of connection with what should we should we preserve or not in a city. So it's kind of it was like kind of a fast forward case study of what does it mean to to to have a specific attachment with a space or with a building. So, so, and that's where like all the collaborations with the different networks of people started to happen and we could, we could like one of my first impetus was like, I mean the National Museum should be like a preserving should be taking care of some of the materials that are going to be lost, because they're going to be demolished and they're nobody's going to, like, like have that space or that material or that piece of the of the of the building anymore. But then all the questions about what is the role of a National Museum in relationship to these questions, what can you preserve of a building that is enough to preserve the building questions of what are the limits of representation of a specific project with a specific building, fragments, all these questions came to place. So, so that's why all the questions about the actions the performances the events that were happening started to become very important so so is a combination of of salvage material that for me was very important that was like circulating back to Kiruna right so actually we haven't let we haven't put anything in the collections we thought that that was not the role of the museum in that sense was more like the role of bringing up the discussion, bringing up the conversation of what is important to preserve in a city, rather than that specific material. And that allowed us to to have like a very, it's true experimental cases of how art is perceived in a museum like that's why you could touch all these things like it was like a very direct you could sit in some of the we also have some benches that were original from the from the building you could also sit on them. So it was like a lot of like usability of those of those objects that for me was important because the career, like for like one of the goals of the of the of this reconstruction. For me was like the general audience should have like a some kind of like a physical connection to that building and how can we like achieve that and that physical connection, like I understood or I thought that like the lectern was the right spot it was the place where, like the public speeches were given, or the most public components of the building were performed in a daily basis that's where the mayor talked to the citizens when they were he was talking. And that's where all the main, you know, like the main public speeches were given so so that's why for me was like that that was the concentrating spot was the place where we needed to work around. And, and the work of England your hands on of the reconstruction of the striking of the mining, mine is a strike was also very important in that process because it was a, it was a way also to connect to two things of another time but important today that the still are are echoes from the past that are as important as the handrail. So that that also that understanding that that architecture is not only important because of its aesthetics is important of other components for me was also for us in the team was was very important so so yeah so I'm actually that that's one of the things that I'm more more excited about in the in the project we thought that we could manage to bring several several parts that for us were important to discuss into into one specific case study. Okay, we have a that's, thank you, Carlos, we have a question from the hell. Yeah, hello. Hello. Yeah, hello, I have a question basically about the relocation issue of the Kiruna. Because the reason like original reason for the relocation of Kiruna is because they want to expand the iron ore mine in that mountain right, so they need to leave more space for the development of the industrial stuff. So my question is, as for the new planning stuff of the town Kiruna. How the pen could reply to the environmental effect of the expanding iron ore, because I know that is have some environmental issues near the near the iron ore miles. How the plan, the plan can, sorry, I did sorry, can you. Yeah, yeah, like, because for example my hometown like my home also have very large coal ore mine. And like around it, it is always like it is very polluted water is very polluted. So how the pen of the new town can reply to this kind of environmental impact. Right. So, so, well, so that's, that's a very good question and I think that, in fact, it doesn't really respond to it. I think that basically separates from it. The solution is made to to locate the city like three kilometers away. Not as a way to address the impacts of the mine in the in the in its surroundings. It's basically to make sure that the houses that are built are not swallowed by the earth. Literally. So the and that really tells a lot about the power structures of a city like Kiruna in which there is like the Kiruna municipality that advocates for all the citizens of the city, but also LKB that is like the mining company that basically advocates for the mining company to be operative and yes address specific sustainability processes right and and there is there are a lot of efforts that are made by the mining company to be less pollutant on to work less with with materials and processes that are a little bit more sustainable. Yes, but in the at the end of the day, basically for me like the big impact that of course it's connected to the pollution that is produced, but the big impact goes much much beyond that, like the impact of mining in the land is is very, very deep in many different layers of society. For example, like the whole like a semi culture is against the fact that the land where they have been living for so many times is even touched. That's that's a sustainability process that's a sustainability question that are is not addressed by any of those questions and definitely not addressed by questions of pollution pollution. Yes, isn't that is an element of that process, but not only know. So, so the new plan, I think that it's actually not responding to that point it's trying to imagine like a new future for the city, making sure that the process of mining continues and keeps on going. One of the big questions that I always ask everybody I met in the process is like, why nobody asks why we stopped mining, like why that question is not even in the table. I think that that's that really tells a lot of of the of the of the realities of a city like these and and and I'm sure that you have a very good, good, good experience and with your, well, good, I don't know but you have the experience with with your hometown for sure. Yeah, that's a good segue to the next question that we have from Professor of Rami. Carlos thank you so much for very provocative project and informative presentation and you know I commend your team for the depth and breadth of research that was done in order to bring this to fruition. But I, I'm wondering if you can expand a little bit on the, the, the use of, of we, when you talk about we sort of as architectural historians preservationists and others it's very easy for us to ascribe architectural value to a place and to use our archival, which are sometimes very exclusionary forms of research to identify social value within a place but how was public engagement conceived or undertaken before the exhibition, I, you know there's great sort of interaction as a result of the exhibition and maybe that in and of there's a way of understanding social value but I'm wondering whether there was anything in advance of the exhibition that really informed how value was being ascribed to that place and to its components. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for the question. I think, I mean, Kiruna, the relocation of Kiruna is, is a well known event in Sweden. If you ask anybody, or you ask anybody before the exhibition was done, like, there was like a general assumption in, in, in the, in the, in the two thirds of, or in the third of Sweden that is in the southern area of Sweden that is basically where all the big cities are located that the capital is located. There is a general understanding of what is going on in Kiruna, and the way media portrays the portrait that kind of location was by saying the city is being moved, right. So, and through like the first section of the research that we in the museum, when I say we here is like the museum team like a team of people working with National Museum of Architecture and Design in Sweden. So the first section of the research was about trying to understand a little bit better, like, what was the, what are were like the discussions and then the groups of, of, of, you know, of thoughts in locally in Kiruna. And that's why we collaborated with the Kiruna municipality and with the, with the Consmosity North with the museum. And, and was like, yes, they were like a specific discussions happening about questions of preservation precisely that was one of the biggest lines of discussion like there was like a lots of surveys produced lots of public engagement in terms of understanding what were like a references for example of location of the new city center. So there is a large legacy of local involvement of different communities in order to discuss like the difficulties and the challenges of the but what we really perceived in that process was that the discussions were very, very present locally. The, the, the, the, the consequences of those discussion didn't necessarily have like a very big large impact in the decisions that were made because the decisions jumped out to another groups of power that were like connected to the state and to the state own companies, less with the municipality. And more importantly, the discussion about like the, the components included and part of the disc of the context, historical and geographical context of the relocation of Kiruna were completely absent of the public discourse. So one of the main intentions of the project is precisely to open to make sure that we didn't focus on the relocation as a house that is moving on top of a track that is basically the image that was constantly projected by the media as a form of celebration of technology. We are capable of moving a city and to a discussion that was more about, okay, the relocation of Kiruna today is only possible because of a historical and geographical and social context that is very complex and has to do with many questions that are not important not only for Kiruna but the important for Sweden as a whole. And so, so like the intention of the project and the research line and the exhibition was to bring to the general discussion and the general public, that kind of complexity. But of course, like the precedents in Kiruna are long and complex and deep. They have been many, many different groups of people and many different communities that have been exercising like lines of thought and lines of pressure, precisely in different directions. And the reality today is that the city is being relocated and buildings are being demolished. So, so that's why that's we were trying to go to the facts of that and to try to open it up to the public to the general public. Thank you, Carlos. Thank you for sharing your thoughts your work with us your insights this is such an interesting case, and the way you've as in your practice the way that you show us how museological methods can intersect with preservation methods. And, and bring put pressure on the forms of community engagement that Professor of Rami was, in fact, raising when they're not happening is so exciting so we look forward to seeing more of your exhibitions more of your work to bring break out of the museum into the world. I think it's a constant in your work it's really terrific so thank you so much and thank you everyone for joining us this morning. Thank you so much for the for this for this lecture. Okay, terrific. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you.