 And welcome back to ThinkTact, this is Transitional Justice where we talk to people all around the world and find out what's doing in transitional justice, which means the investigation of atrocities, violations of human rights, war crimes, and all that. And one of our earlier guests is going to appear again with us today. She's Cynthia Ibali and she is in Uganda right now. And we're going to talk about Darfur and Khartoum and Sudan in general and all those warring factions that we see and can't understand very well. Cynthia, welcome back to the show. It's so nice to see you. I'm sorry about all the trouble, you know, when we spoke last, it seemed to be a light at the end of the tunnel for Sudan. And maybe there was going to be some rational result, but that hasn't happened. That was, what, six or seven weeks ago? And gee whiz, it's just gotten worse ever since. Can you give us a status report? Thanks for having me Jay. And yes, a few weeks ago when we spoke, I did, we did, a number of people of all did think that there would be an end to this crisis, or at least some kind of meeting of minds that would agree for the better of the country. Unfortunately, we are seven weeks into the conflict and there's mass devastation across, in Khartoum and Darfur and also parts of North Kodofan in El-Obaid. So, and this, if I could just also go back to the beginning, the fighters between the rapid support forces, who are the RSF in short, were headed by General Muhammad Dagelo, also known as Hemen T, and the Sudan Armed Forces, who are headed by General Al-Bahan. Yeah, you'd think they would get together for the benefit of the country, the people of the country, but they keep on fighting. You know, if you and I could get in a room with them, I'm sure we could explain to them just how destructive it is to keep on fighting and make the civilians in the middle the targets of all this. So it really hasn't changed in six or seven weeks, and they've been fighting all this time. And I suppose I should ask you about the change in terms of, you know, other countries, other powers, if you will, that are trying to bring this to an end, I mean the fighting to an end, including the the US, and all the efforts to take care of refugees, have people escape, leave the country. That has to be going on too, I hope. Yes, so there have been efforts, diplomatic efforts by various parties, sorry, foreign governments to try and, you know, resolve the conflict in Sudan, the current conflict, like you already mentioned, the US and Saudi Arabia had engaged in talks with both sides. That's most recent, the most recent engagements with the armed parties, but unfortunately, last Wednesday, this is 31st March, talks were suspended after the Sudan Armed Forces pulled out, claiming that the reports indicate that they claim the RSF has been not adhering to the ceasefires, which is, I mean, both sides have not been adhering to any ceasefire agreements, or even honored their commitments for humanitarian access or humanitarian corridors to allow access to those in need. The situation with the, in terms of refugees, or at least people fleeing, seeking refuge for two other parts, sorry, to neighboring countries, is also a bit, has been a bit tricky, is that the word, but not the best response. So you have, at the start of the conflict, a number of people, actually, majority, I think, about over 300,000 fled to Egypt, and you had long queues at the border, and, you know, a new border, certain restrictions that processes that would ordinarily take maybe a day or two are now taking weeks, a week or more. And this is a journey that also takes another week to get to Cairo or the other destinations that people are seeking. There was also concern because these border areas do not have the facilities to handle the influx of people that are coming in. Then at the, also at the start, you had people from the four, the nearest would be Chad, and so a number of people were fleeing and had already fled even before the conflict, because remember, the four has been in a conflict affected zone for quite some time. So at the start, we had reports that Chad had, you know, closed its borders, but despite that, people have managed to gain access using, so they're walking all the way from Elginina, taking the journey across to Chad, because, you know, the border with Chad, because of the insecurity in the four. Then you have people coming into South Sudan, and South Sudan, you have people coming in from the four, but also from Khartoum. South Sudan is receiving people who have fled from South Sudan to Sudan for refuge and now forced to go back to a country that they had fled. That must be really hard on them. Yes, it definitely is. So, yeah, and then also you also have Sudanese and other nationalities who are trying to get out of, to safer areas. The journeys have been long. There have been reports of a number of checkpoints that people have had to go through as they're making these journeys. And of course, such as during, at these checkpoints, the insecurity of what to make this journey, the amount of money because with the demand, of course, people have capitalized on that and prices have gone up for transportation and the like. So, yeah, in a nutshell, that's pretty much. Well, let me ask you some questions about it. See, that border thing with Egypt really sounds disturbing. It sounds like the U.S. border with Mexico, where you get stopped and there's opportunity to take advantage of you, you know, and that the people who provide the transportation probably do that by asking you for money that is way too much for the transportation. And then, of course, exactly in a refugee situation, what do you want to have all these checkpoints for? What's the purpose of that? What are they concerned about? What justification can they provide for having all these checkpoints? Who's operating it? Tell me more about the checkpoints. So, the checkpoints I have heard about from, you know, colleagues I've spoken to, especially people who are fleeing the force seem to be mined by RSF. And what they're asking you is where you're going, you're aware about who, you know, trying to figure out who you are if you're engaged in activities. If you're engaged in activities, if you're one of the which side are you on type of situation? Numerous questions answered. Sorry, I asked about, you know, why you're making this trip. So, yeah, and then also there's been, yeah, so pretty much. What about the border with Egypt? I mean, Egypt was there at the beginning. You and I talked about Egypt's presence at the beginning of this, but it apparently left Sudan and had troops there in Sudan that left. What's the status of Egypt's involvement now? So far now, the status of the involvement has been with the receiving of refugees or people fleeing. I don't know if refugees are the right time, but at least people fleeing the conflict in Sudan seeking refuge. So, yeah, I guess you can say refugees. Is Egypt offering them refuge? It's been a bit tricky. So, to say yes, some people have, no, a good number have gotten through the border, but a good number still stuck or trying to get through. And I think also probably people justify that they're also looking out for their resources to support the people who are seeking refuge. So, that could also be another issue. A number of times these countries are also opening doors, means you're stretching the resources you have and so are, but still... Which side is Egypt on? Is Egypt on the Sudanese army side or the RSF? So, Egypt was or is aligned with the Sudan armed forces. I haven't seen or had reports of whether they are taking sides, but they are known to be a bulk of the Sudan armed forces. I think at the beginning when we spoke about Egypt's involvement, they were helping with some evacuations at that time. Whether they've been actively engaged in a conflict, I can't say for sure that they have, but they are known to be allies or at least have backed the Sudan armed forces in the past. Now, that makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, it's the legitimate... I mean, if you care to cast it that way, the legitimate government of Sudan is the army. That's what it is. What about... Go ahead. So, that's actually an interesting comment because there's also been a bit of... What a bit. But, yeah, there's been conversations about people taking sides in this conflict. And so, because it's a campaign and not a war, not a war campaign that the civil society resistance committees have backed not to support anyone in this conflict because all it's doing is causing mass destruction. And so, to say whether who is... Both sides are... Whatever you engaged in is wrong. But, of course, there's been... What can I call it? Backers of especially Sudan armed forces or what they call the Islamist movement, calling those who haven't taken sides that you're probably a traitor or how do you not back the Sudan armed forces because they are the establishment, the state military force. So, yeah. I see why you say it's an interesting comment. It's an interesting conversation. So, they ask you who's side are you on? And you say, I'm not on anyone's side. I just want this killing to stop. And then they say, oh, well, that means you're a traitor. But wait a minute. I told you that I'm not on no one's side. Of course, then you could say, well, okay, I'm on your side. No, actually, the side of the civilians. There's three parties in the game. There's the army, there's the RSF and the pavilion. And the army and the RSF have all the weapons. And they're shooting the civilians. Madness. It's madness. So, how about Ethiopia? Is Ethiopia involved at all in trying to help people? Oh, yes. So, they have been, sorry, I hadn't spoken about that, people crossing over to Ethiopia. So, that's towards the east of Sudan and onto Ethiopia at the borders. Again, there's been, there's not as many reports, but there's been issues with receiving of people seeking refuge from Ethiopia. But yes, these are restrictions or border entry restrictions have been imposed, but people have been able to go through. It hasn't been as smooth, I must say. I probably think maybe the smoothest entry, but that's also has been quite long, has been maybe people who have gone into South Sudan. But again, it hasn't been as smooth because I mean, other barriers that have heated people trying to flee into safety. What about Uganda? It's not that far. It's not contiguous, but it's not that far. People trying to get into Uganda and seek refuge there. Yes. So, Uganda has received a number of people who have sought to seek refuge here. People fleeing the conflict from Sudan, but they're visually transited to another country. So, probably you're coming either from Cairo or you've made it to Addis or you're going through South Sudan and have continued into Uganda. Yes. So, we have an open policy or it's been, I haven't had issues about entry into Uganda. I don't know. So, Kenya has received some people fleeing there. So, I haven't had any issues, but of course, the entry restrictions. So, to tell you Uganda, you need a visa. So, yeah. You know, it sounds to me like, first, the economy and the social society of Sudan is the train wreck right now. How can you have an economy with this and everybody's afraid for his life or her life and then you have refugees trying to get across into other countries. And so, this is not only destabilizing, tell me if I'm right, not only destabilizing in Sudan, it's destabilizing in the surrounding countries because refugees put pressure on the country, both in terms of, you know, the geopolitics, but also in terms of the resources, as you said, in the case of Egypt. So, this is not good for Sub-Saharan Africa. It's not good. Or, I guess, this is North Saharan. This is Eastern Africa is what it is. Yeah. It's not good for any of those countries. It's destabilizing, isn't it? Yeah. So, of course, no one foresaw that there would be an influx of people coming in. So, that means, you know, resources are spread out then. I mean, even for the people, something we're also not spoken about is that, you know, not everyone is able to live. So, people have been displaced in other parts of Sudan. So, within Sudan, internally displaced people from Hattu fleeing to states that are bordering, or at least, yeah, bordering Hattu. And even with that, so now, like let's say, recently in El-Obaid, this is also an area that has experienced conflict. If those have been raided, I think World Food Programme mentioned that the stores was raided or looted, rather, just last week MSF has also had reports of, so it has reported looting of their stores, but then also with their Hattu factories have been looted, you know, which are called silos, holding grain have also been looted. There's been also a bit of, not a bit, a collapse in the backing system with fossil oil, you know, the fighting, the bombings and all have destroyed some of the infrastructure. So, let's say, like electricity or mobile networks, which I needed to run certain systems, but then also banks have been looted. Businesses have also not have not been spared, and so, you know, there's also looting there. So that has just also increased, you know. So, it's hard to get food then? Well, yeah, there's access to food has definitely been hindered, and then also with, you know, a lack of humanitarian corridors, you know, you can't get food into where people are needed the most. The airport and cartoon is still not functioning? Oh, no, no, that's not functioning. Yeah. So, you know, what's really remarkable is that these two guys keep on beating each other up at the expense of the country. Is there anybody sending aid or, for that matter, soldiers or material to either side or are they just all limited to their own indigenous armies? So, aid or humanitarian response has been taken on by civil society. Actors on the resistance committees have laid a response to devastation that has occurred. So they've created what they call, especially the cartoon, they've created what they call emergency response rooms. And so, within this emergency response, people are able to, you know, seek information about, you know, medical services. And these are very neighborhood focused. So that's how, you know, on the ground and closer to the people they are. But then there's also been, because Sudan is quite communal, they look out for each other. And so, even with the people who have been displaced, people have made makeshift shelters, or at least opened their homes. I remember the steps, the first weeks of the conflict, there were pictures as people were fleeing on the highway, people were coming out to give them food, to give them water, to wish them well on their journey. And so, but yeah, a few weeks back, you know, there was a receipt of aid, or I think it was a World Food Program, and also WHO, the World Health Organization, had received a sub-supply through the Red Sea State, so through Port Sudan. And they're trying to now, you know, take it out into, you know, inner parts of the country, destination was Hattu at the point. But again, with these roadblocks and stuff, it's been a bit difficult. Oh my goodness. So when you have two armies fighting with each other like this, you need money. You need money for weapons and ammunition, you need money to pay the troops, and you need to buy them food and supplies and what have you. Where is that coming from? Do both of these armies have resources that would allow them to, you know, continue this fight, or are they going to run out of money? And ammunition? Or is there somebody outside supplying them with this to sort of encourage them to continue the fight? I mean, they do have their companies where they have, they have economically benefited, and that has also provided the resources they need for the weapons and so even before the fighting, they did have their own companies. And interesting that you say that, because during the conflict, I think a week or two weeks ago, but Burhan, General Burhan, who is the de facto head of state being the de facto, because he's the head of the army at the time, sorry, he's the head of the army actually now, issued a decree where the frauds, salaries going to the IRSF, who are now what they consider the terrorist group, their enemy. And so this is what apparently triggered the looting of banks because they'll listen to their salaries. But I mean, they do also have companies that do, if I'm correctly, they also make their own weapons. And interesting that you say that because just last week, I'm sure you had the US issued sanctions on two companies owned by the IRSF and also two companies owned by the Sudan Armed Forces in a way to also curb financial flaws that would continue to fluctuate. Are they of equal size and strength and arms, these two armies? Or are they changing? Is one side gathering more money and troops and weapons than the other? I don't think they are equal size and strength. They have their strength. I think for now what you're saying is that the Sudan Armed Forces seem to have the machinery to do airstrikes and airboat mudmen and stuff like that. But the IRSF also have support especially, have seemed to gain more ground on, sorry, when it comes to fighting on the ground. And so are able to infiltrate the war through neighborhoods because that's been the attack. That's the hardest. That's the worst of all because it's face-to-face with civilians. What about the United Nations? What about the United States? Let's talk about sanctions recently. But are they doing anything? Are they trying to force these two guys together to make peace? It all seems like it could go on forever. And the question is what are the powers that be doing to try to bring peace to the region? Yeah. So there have been a number of briefings at the security council level. But we haven't seen much movement, I must say. I mean, there have been statements issued asking for both parties to cease fighting. Other than that, the negotiations that have really taken place have been the U.S.-Saudi, Saudi Arabia-led talks in Jeddah. But like I mentioned just last week, they were suspended. There are calls to try and have them back on the table. The African Union has also had its own mechanism, established an expanded mechanism that's aimed to address the conflict in Sudan. So we're waiting to see how that plays into negotiating a ceasefire. And the United Nations, have they taken any steps? I think they're waiting for, I think they were waiting on the U.S.-Saudi-led talks. There hasn't been much. Sounds perfectly dreadful, Cynthia. Take a guess and tell me how you think this is going to evolve and how long it'll take to get there? The way things are looking, one can tell. But it looks like the fighting is still going on for some time, unfortunately. But we do hope, we do really hope that we can reach a ceasefire, an actual ceasefire, to stop the destruction. Why is it that they enter into these agreements for ceasefire and it breaks down almost immediately? How does that work? Well, I like to think it's also because they're no serious consequences if it breaks down. Yeah, I will agree to it, but continue our status. There hasn't been enough incentive to make them want to stop, if I could say that. Let me offer a thought to you and I'll see what you think. It's like my theory of the stock market. The stock market goes up until people get tired of seeing it go up, then it goes down, and it goes down until people get tired of it going down, then it goes up. And so, I think after a while, history moves through this and people, both armies, both generals, will get tired and it'll stop because they're tired of doing it. You can't do that your whole life, I hope. Do you think they're getting tired now? I do hope they get tired soon because we need an end sooner rather than later for sure. I don't think it doesn't look like it, but I really do hope we get to that point where it's like, okay, yes. A project expert at justice is always interested in violations of human rights, atrocities, war crimes, and all that. And I would, maybe there's not enough information out from what is happening on the ground, but I would imagine that there's plenty of atrocities going on, plenty of war crimes. When you have armed, not only one, but two armed camps killing civilians, bombing, it's the same thing as Ukraine, isn't it? Bombing apartment buildings in which only civilians live, bombing hospitals and schools in which only civilians are present. That's an attack on a civilian community, and that's what's happening here. So, isn't that arguably a war crime? I mean, there are acts that definitely have occurred that could amount to war crimes, or crimes against humanity as well. Say, like you just mentioned, killing of civilians, innocent civilians caught in the crossfire, due to the indiscriminate shootings or bombings, trying to sniff out the enemy of the other. There's been also, I mean, like we mentioned, looting, property destruction. There's been reports of sexual abuse. There's been reports of rape and torture? Yes, yes. Detention and torture of people who are suspected to be allied with the other side, and a number of these are people who are just engaged in providing humanitarian assistance, something that is too worrying, but is unblocking. So, it's, yeah. I mean, also, do you think there'll be accountability here? I mean, for example, in Ukraine, there are virtually thousands of investigators investigating war crimes, and like thousands of them. And, you know, a lot of them are documented already, but I'm not sure that's happening in Sudan. Are there people investigating war crimes there? Will there be accountability or is the evidence sort of slipping into history? That's a good question. So, people are documenting, you know, based on the resources they have. So, there's been lots of reports or at least shared on social media. Of course, with the insecurity, documentation has been a bit tricky going to, you know, my sites, but there's documentation going on. It's interesting that you mentioned accountability. I mean, right before the conflict, people, you know, there was a push for accountability for mass atrocities that occurred during the previous regime. I remember that, yes. So, this is a second level, a second layer. You're just adding to the list of atrocities that need to be accounted for. Just, you know, adding to a long list of atrocities. So, again, I believe that the push for accountability is still there. When we'll see it, yeah, time will tell, I think. The history of humanity is told by the survivors and those who don't survive or they don't make good witnesses. Sorry. Yeah. So, how do you feel about this? I mean, you've been covering it. You've been close to it. You've talked to the people coming, coming out of Sudan. You've been following all these mad events. And I wonder, you know, you seem overcome to some extent, Cynthia. Since the last time we met, it seems to have gotten to you. Am I right? It definitely has. I mean, when you're talking to people and they are, you know, in a situation of distress, it's been tough. It's been tough for sure. But we push on. It's been heartbreaking to see, you know, what's happening in Sudan. I mean, during 2019, I remember I was excited with the majority who saw, you know, Hope for a new Sudan. And so that seems to, that seems like a distant past. But I don't think we should give up that easy, though. So, I mean, you get on, you see these reports of these atrocities being committed that gets to you. It's only, you know, I'm only human. So it does definitely get to me. But you have to try and find a way to keep pushing, to keep supporting the people needed and to keep, you know, adding to the voice and advocating for along with them. So, yeah. Well, you got to keep on reporting what you see, what you feel, what's happening. And we'll have to come back to you again. I'm looking forward to the next time, although I hope it's better news then. Let me say this to Cynthia, you're doing our work. You're doing the work that the world needs you to do. So, as I say, thank you for your service. Thank you. Thank you, too. Cynthia Ibali, Project Expedite Justice in Kampala, Uganda. Thank you.