 My name is David Mallard, I'm a partner with Nair and I'm here to be the moderator today. I'm going to sit with my colleague for a moment, but carrying from our opening session, I would be like for you to look at the light behind it forward and if you don't know what you're going to do with the film in the next 30 seconds, go. Mm-hmm. Well, for the artist, we are recruiters and residents. We only like four folks in a group and we might have a job then. We have the pleasure of taking the other 12 years in the field in that each connected between professional leadership and ladies. A couple of things in terms of working in the community as we prepare for this organization's problem. Our particular lens is that the healthiest organization is a riot. Most insurers seem to think one, everyone has something like two, and they're engaged in some meaningful stuff. We're the leaders of that sort of organization. People who do, and so that's the lens through which the next 45 minutes will be asked through the leadership lens. So let me introduce them and then we're going to sit. I will. Thank you for saying that. Everyone, again, for any of us, there are not much. Oh, we're being livestreamed. If you have an objection, either keep the rule or don't say the rule. But it will be captured, and God knows where it's going to go. Somebody in Moscow is probably connecting with us. I think it's on HowlRound, right, Nabra? That's the, okay. So I believe that we also have some note cards. Yes. And we're going to be passing those around in about 25 or 30 minutes. We're going to be gathering these up. If you have a question, we would like for you to pick the, because we have a limited amount of time to craft that question and we will gather those up. Your question will more likely be answered if it's legible. All right. And reasonably large, large, large, large part. So let me introduce, let me introduce our panelists. Megan Carney is Artistic Director of About-Based Theater, Chicago-based organization dedicated to advancing dialogue on gender and sexuality. Next to her is Amy Ratchford, Managing Director of American Shakespeare Center in Stanton, Virginia. In addition to her day job, she also lectures regularly on finance budgeting and governance. And as if he needs an introduction, Chad Bauman is the Managing Director here at Milwaukee Rep and our host. So with that, let's jump in. And ladies and gentlemen, for you in your organization through your leadership lens, what does engagement mean? What are you trying to accomplish? And what are the markers of success? And Amy, will you start us with that, please? Absolutely. We are figuring that out right now. We have just started this conversation. And so I had notes written down based on the conversations we had had previously and internally. And last night, the keynote helped reframe a lot of my thoughts. So I am thrilled to be this early in the conversation because I'm looking forward to taking that back to our group and to organization. So we are trying to accomplish a, on a broad sense, a more holistic approach to who we consider community and how we're communicating with them. Megan? Yeah, so good morning, everyone. Good to be here with you. Aboutface Theater is a small equity company in Chicago, but we've been around for 22 years now. And our founding mission was grounded in this idea of advancing dialogue around gender and sexuality. So I say that to say, you know, for me, theater is a set of tools for advancing social justice and connecting with community and engagement is really knit closely inside of that. And I feel like in the context of this conversation, I think engagement is also a set of tools. And I think that it is a variety of approaches and styles and methods that we can use to have impact. And so I think for me, it's about focusing on impact and not intent. It's about creating programs and initiatives that are life affirming for the people who are in the room and that create spaces for community and for connections in a variety of ways. And also that markers of success are around tangibles, around advancing in social justice and advancing dialogue. So unpacking learning and unpacking sort of new areas of knowledge. I think that it is also a part of our artistic practice. Thank you. Chad, what does engagement mean to you, too, to Milwaukee? Yeah, so a couple of years ago, the theater Milwaukee Rep changed its mission and then the first line of our mission, it says create positive change. And I went on to acknowledge Lita Hoffman, who's in the room here, who's our first director of community engagement. And we got together and we said, that's a big daunting task, create positive change. How are we going to do this and what are we going to focus on? And we spent a good amount of time going around town, talking to different communities, different foundation leaders. We spent a lot of time digesting the Greater Milwaukee Foundation's vital science report to understand what our community's greatest needs were and what our assets that we could bring to the table. So we defined that in three buckets. The first is celebrating and strengthening Milwaukee. The second is social-emotional learning and literacy. And the third is equity, diversity, and inclusion. We launched the Impact Initiative, which now has eight full-time people working on it. And it's structured with assessments and it's one of our programs, in some cases designed by Marquette University, in some cases designed by the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. So, Chatham, let's stay with you for a second. And you touched on it in your first answer. How did the idea of engagement and its importance, how did this come up in your organization? What was the genesis? Yeah, so I came to the Rep five years ago as managing director and our first year was putting out some fires in the second year. In my case, we wanted to go back and look at our strategic plan along with our artistic director, who was doing some amazing programmatic things but wasn't recognized in our mission statement. We thought that process would be four, five months and ended up being 14, 15 months. And a company, after six decades, changed its mission statement. And so, from that, the idea of community engagement went from, and I talk about this internally with the staff, from being the sprinkles on the cupcake to being the cupcake itself. And so, we can no longer do exceptional theater and call that as mission fulfilled. We have to do exceptional theater that creates positive change, provokes and inspires, and is representative of the rich diversity of our city. And so, from that, the strategic planning process drove that process for us. And we worked with MCA, who was phenomenal in helping us steer and thinking about those strategic issues. This is not intended to be a sales session. I made it a sales session, so that was me. But no, that's the truth. Thank you for that. Shout out. Amy, Genesis at American Shakespeare Center. Yeah, so we're turning 30 this fall at the American Shakespeare Center, but we started out as Shenandoah Shakespeare Express, which is a touring company for the first 13 years. So, I also consider us to be 17 years old because we opened the Playhouse in 2001. And as what started it was the conversation after a TCG conference in D.C. a couple of years ago where we brought a large contingent for the first time and the conversation was around new work. And the feeling that we had was that we were, as a classical theater, put into the realm of part of the problem and rather than part of the solution of getting new voices in theater and that sort of thing. And so we got to talking about what that means and how can a classical theater who feels very strongly about our mission of producing classical and new work with Shakespeare's staging conditions, how can we be part of this conversation and not be part of the problem, right? And so that was the genesis. We are now, we didn't know two years ago, we are now going through a leadership transition of our founding artistic director, step down at the end of 2017, and so now we're looking for our first new artistic director ever. And so that has become part of the larger conversation of where do we want to go from here? What are our communities and what does community engagement mean in that frame? Thank you. Megan, who's in charge of engagement at Aboutface? Who owns it? Yeah, yeah. Great question. So we're very small in comparison and I think that informs this answer. So it has to be shared leadership amongst everybody for us and not because we're small, but it sort of organically is because we're small because we have sort of one person departments and, you know, are structured in a really different kind of way. So we share the leadership, however, I drive it with the staff who run our education and engagement program and also I would say the director of development because special events is housed in development and special events is one of the ways in which we really communicate and express our goals around this. And just for the benefit of everyone here, the number annual budget-ish is around 600,000. 3.7 million. 13 million. Okay. Who owns it at American Shakespeare Center? Well, right now I'm driving it. We are actually looking to use this community engagement and I feel like it's embedded in the work we're doing right now together with equity, diversity and inclusion that we are using these to connect the whole organization and so we're looking at it in the same way you talk about that even though we've got a full-time staff of 22 that we want these efforts to be systemic and that they will help us keep away the silos that we have worked so hard to break down over the past few years and that this can be a way to keep that conversation going and those walls from building back up. Jeth, who owns it here? Yeah, when we first started this work, we wanted to acknowledge that we had some strategic assets that we could deploy but we also needed to learn a lot. And so one of the first things we did was we formed the Impact Council which consists of 10 nonprofit leaders which are our pillar partners as well as 10, I would call them thought leaders in the city. And so we have an Impact Council at the board level on down both Mark and I as executive leadership talk and really drive this forward together. But I would also say one of the good challenges we're having at this moment as a theater company is that every department is sort of taking on their role. So marketing is really looking at audience development, education is really looking at education, engagement is all. And so I would say that we have about 40 people driving this right now which is both a very positive thing and as well as a structural challenge. So Megan, what is leadership? You're counseling your colleagues here. What does leadership need to do to make engagement a meaningful reality within the organization? I love this question and I want to say I am five months on the job to this room. I'm one of the co-founders of our youth program and I was on staff and ran that for eight years but I've been away for a while and just came back and I just feel like I need to preface it with that because I have been doing this kind of work for a long time and yet I'm entering my position right now with a fresher perspective from it. So I'm speaking to... I started listening to a lot of details and then I came up with this very simple list of things that I think leadership can do and what I'm trying to do right now in my role is to bring what we're calling engagement, bring that to the center of the organization. So make it part of our artistic practice and make it part of... it's the heart, it's the beating, it's the pulse, it's where the action is. So bringing it to the center and whatever that looks like, whatever the structure of the organization is, listen well to what's happening in the rooms with the teams that are doing the work or the people that are doing the work and ask for what are the priorities around this. I know as my career has shifted I used to be the one in the room driving the program and designing the curriculum and I'm not in the room now so I need to adjust and I need to listen very closely to understand what my team is telling me about what's happening and respond accordingly. Leadership needs to communicate out to stakeholders. In order to do that I need to know what's actually happening so I visit a lot, I'm in the room, I go out on tour to the schools, I see them in action so that then I can go... I can communicate very clearly, hey, here's what I saw last week or here's the challenge that we're up against. But that I can be a face with up-to-date information that's really useful for our stakeholders to understand what it is that we're doing. And then lastly again, focusing on impact and not intent. For me, one of the ways that that works is thinking about what are we trying to do here? What ultimately what are we trying to do and how does the work that might be happening in our room connect with other conversations around the city, other networks of thinking around this, other initiatives that are happening, who needs our support, how do we amplify other things that are happening. And for me that kind of gets at the impact piece of we can do amazing things in a rehearsal room and in a devising process and in a production. And how do we amplify that I think is a really key part of why I'm interested in this work. So we're a different into the organizational size spectrum. Chad, you and Mark, what do you as leaders have to do to make this a meaningful reality at the moment? I think Megan actually made a good point which is reminding people that it's at the center of our work. Going back to us for a second, the change in a mission after six decades is really, I underestimated I guess the amount of work it would take to make sure that that infiltrates the entire company. And so a constant reminder of the create positive change part of our mission is the first thing out there and constantly driving that. I think for me specifically, I heard this morning a lot of folks talking about how financial concerns really are limiting in work and my job as a managing director is to make sure that there's financial resources to accomplish what we're trying to accomplish. And so a lot of that has to deal with fundraising. So that's a lot of what I spend my time on. I think there's also a couple of different things that we talk about which is a reminder that you know less than you think you know and that it's not transactional. It's not institution serving but community serving. And those things particularly with some trustees might be difficult conversations to have, particularly if the company is in financial concerns. So I think all of those are there. And then the fourth, the fourth is is that make sure that there's rigor so that you're actually accomplishing the things that you're setting out to accomplish and you have measurement and you are constantly improving. Thank you. Let's talk about outcomes and evolution for a minute. Each would like each of you. What's been successful? A specific example of what's happened and perhaps what's changed. Amy, can we start with you? I'd actually like to talk about what wasn't or it has been, we tried and we are trying again because it wasn't successful. And I think that it goes back to what you were saying about underestimating the impact of centering this conversation. The variety and level of pushback from within the organization has been fascinating. And it's not, nobody is sitting there going, we shouldn't be doing this, right? But there's all these little micro things that are like, wait, is this really why we're doing it? And we have not changed our mission. Our mission is still to, now I'm blinking on our mission, right? On live stream. But to explore the joy and accessibility of Shakespeare's language, theater, and humanity through Shakespeare and performance and education. And so that's the center, but talking about what that means within our institutional community, within our physical community, within, we are strongly connected. Education is, we're dual mission, production and education. And that means scholarly community and educational community and artistic and all of those things. And the way that those communities intersect and don't and how this work intersects and doesn't, it's just been what the way, the language that I've been using that I used to start, I was like, oh, okay, that didn't work. All right, so let's get some shared language. Let's talk about the assumptions we're making about what we're talking about when we say community engagement and equity, diversity and inclusion and we got response of what does this have to do with me doing my job well? And so, okay, what does it have to do? Let's talk about that and why it's vital to have these conversations. So that's been a first step. It's like, I thought I knew what our first step was and we actually had to back up and it's like step negative three in terms of what I thought we had to do. So it's been a learning experience and not allowing that to say, oh, well, I guess we can't do it then, you know? But saying, all right, then what do we need to do with this organization? And we're not gonna stop moving forward on this, but we need to do this prep work before we even start talking to our communities about it. Thank you. Megan, a specific example of what's worked, what's changed? Yeah, yeah. Jumping off the idea of breaking barriers and I think silos can exist no matter what the size of an organization is and breaking barriers, two quick things. One, we hosted an event, a public event for the show that we toured into public schools. So we have a show that goes around Chicago Public Schools and campuses and we, you know, over 6,000 students and community members kind of experienced this. But I discovered when I got there that some of our board members hadn't seen that show. Some of our close stakeholders hadn't seen that show. So we created a public event where our board and other folks who support us could come and see the work that we're taking into schools, which was monumental. It was a big morale booster for the cast that goes around to schools to be seen in that way. And also now for our close community to be able to talk about what that is. Similarly around breaking barriers, we were just able to hire sort of in a pipeline of emerging leadership in the field. We were able to hire the two people who came up out of our programs and currently run our program right now. So they're working artists. They're doing a lot of different things in their field. But they've also kind of come out of our training and are taking the leadership with the new generation of youth coming up. And that feels really successful in terms of succession planning, in terms of supporting emerging leaders, in terms of strengthening the capacities of our team. Can I get their names and email? No, I'm not getting them. Absolutely not. Come on to you. What's worked, Jed? What's been successful? What's changed here? Yeah, I'll tell you two things we're thinking about right now. One, it sounds really simple, but it was a big mind switch for me, is when we produced the color purple about four years ago, and we were really thinking about this, a local pastor, his name is John Daniels III, who runs a historically black church, came to me and he said, you know, if you want us at your dinner table, you better come into my house first. And I thought, that would be an interesting way of thinking about that. And so we had this event that he hosted that had 700 people come to his church without launch the color purple. And now in our community engagement events, we do more than 100 free events all over the city. And it's about a third of our events are outside in random places, a third are with our pillow partners, and a third are here in our actual theater. And so we've been much more externally focused. I think the area that we're challenged now, and I don't see our production folks in here, I will say that the idea that we're just going to create a department of engagement, and we're going to staff it, and we're going to create some education, and we're going to staff it, and then we're going to do something like 300 events a year and not increase production support, and not increase, was probably, we're dealing with that right now. So, and maybe you help pivot to the next question, but a failure, something that you tried, bona fide efforts and didn't work, or didn't work out as you anticipated. While you're doing that, I'm going to get us water. So, Amy, do you want anything else on, anything on failure? Well, we're also working, we were approached by a community partner, a local restaurant that they wanted to, thank you, build a dinner and a show outreach. This was their idea that go into a community center that is predominantly people of color and that don't currently come downtown and to have kids from that community center come be treated to dinner at a restaurant downtown and then come see a show and have a conversation during dinner with either some of the artists or education folks and a number of folks on our team were like, yeah, that sounds like a great idea. We had someone involved, that's involved with the community center, but the way that, and Carmen highlighted it so well last night, that we started with the end result, right, rather than starting with the conversation with the community. And although we had someone at the table or brought to the table that is involved and embedded in that community, it wasn't the same thing as us going and getting to know the community center, you know, and getting to know that community that populates that community center rather than sitting over in our space and going, you know what they would love? We don't know that because we haven't had that conversation yet. And luckily, the process of this project has kind of gotten stalled and it's not a coincidence that it's gotten stalled because we didn't start with the conversation with the community, but we are, since it got stalled, we haven't screwed it up yet, right? So we're able to just say, okay, actually let's pause and let's start with the conversation first this time. Megan, anything crash and burn? Yeah. No. You know what, you know, you don't want to call anything failures because we learn and all of that, you know, but truly, we're trying to do this work and work within different bureaucracies and bureaucratic systems is really challenging for us as a team to figure out like we have a really solid relationship with the Parks District in Chicago and we're really grateful for this program they do called Night Out in the Parks and we consistently have a hard time sort of just interfacing with the system of it, you know? Things like that. And I say that because I think there are a lot of logistical, tangible parts of this work that are beyond like designing a great curriculum and hiring wonderful artists. It's like the nuts and bolts that take a lot of time of whatever the system, the filing systems are going to be or the networking or the getting over and figuring out how to even get on the schedule sometimes can be difficult. Similarly with work directly in schools, I think those of you who do this work understand like the point person and then your point person changes and the relationship building really behind the scenes of even making the work happen has led us to, you know, multiple different kinds of failures and challenges that I think prevent us from reaching the number of people we'd like to or getting in with the kind of consistency that we would like to. Other than forgetting about your production department and dumping a lot more work, anything you've tried and failed? Yeah, I would say the two things that I would respond was the first challenge was me as a leader. I think I don't come from Milwaukee. I moved here from Washington, D.C. and very smartly one of our impact council leaders said to me who runs the YWCA here. Her name is Paula Pennebaker. She said you need to learn much more about the city and much more about systemic racism that's going on in the city. And so I took an unlearning racism class that her organization does and I learned a lot more about the city. I also academically thought, I understand everybody else has implicit bias, but I certainly didn't. And I joked this morning, I'm looking at Lita, I joked this morning, a lot of Lita's job in the first two years with me was to point out biases that I had. One of the first challenges, honestly, was me as a leader. The second, I think, as going forward, I'm having structural issues right now. We have all these awesome people that are working with us. We have an audience engagement committee that's run by the marketing side. We have the impact council that's ran over here. We have all these different councils and we're replicating work and some over here really like what's going on over here and some over here really like what's going on over here. I haven't figured out a system yet that is efficient and makes us all rowing towards the same direction. There's a high class problem. I mean, you've got that kind of work going on and they're trying to align. For those of you who are clock watchers, did we say at the beginning, everything is running about 15 minutes late and they've given us, you will not miss your next session nor lunch if you stay. So, we've got about 12 more minutes here. If you can, is that correct? Yes, thank you. If you have questions, could you pass them to the center and someone will bring those up here to us momentarily. So, Megan, how does your work for AboutPace, how's your only two? Only two? Wow. A few more. We've got three more questions here. So, if you have a question, jot it down quickly. We'll try to get to as many as we can. How's your work in the community, if it has, has it changed the way that you look at yourself internally through an EDI lens and what the elements in equity that are important to your organization? Sure, sure. So, we are a primarily white organization. We are, most of the sort of racial and economic and gender diversity is within our education program and that has been true since our founding. And, you know, our work around representation, around LGBTQ lives on stage has evolved significantly, you know, since for 22 years you can imagine the different issues, the struggles, the priorities. And when the organization was going through this most recent leadership change, there was a big sort of soul-searching transition process that happened and an alignment around these values of wanting to steer more towards impact and wanting to bring activism, a sort of a beating heart of activism into the core of the company and looking at intersectionality and LGBTQ issues in a very intentional way. Not that we haven't done that, but in a real forefront kind of way. And that made me really excited about the job and made me want to apply for the job as a white person really invested in racial justice and continually practicing and trying to get better at that. So that's where we are right now, aspiring, thinking about a lot of issues about how to, what are the frameworks that we want to be working from and what are the stories that we want to tell and how do we do that particularly in this, you know, the sort of political climate we find ourselves in with a mission that's around dialogue and sort of bringing people together in conversation. So we're sitting with a lot of those questions. We don't use the framework, we haven't done any training since I've been there, but that's something that we're interested in and we're kind of exploring what that would look like. Amy, how's the external engagement impacted you internally? Well, we're working with these things in tandem and I want to also bust it out a little bit because what we're also trying to do is be more engaged in our communities. So like I'm running for school board right now and there's, we have folks on our staff that are on boards in our community and bringing that information back to us and being part of the thought leadership of the community and not just living in our building. There are a lot of questions going on in our community right now around where Stanton itself is 14% people of color, but the university right there, Mary Baldwin, is very diverse and I mean it is up a block of stairs up a hill from downtown and the students do not come downtown because of some of the feelings and experiences. Of looks they get, of treatment that they get. And so being part of that conversation of helping to move our community and our city as a whole more towards being engaged with each other and not just taking our work to them or bringing them to us but being integral to the conversation throughout the entire thing. I don't feel like we can separate what we are calling community engagement and our equity, diversity and inclusion and our city and school system work. So it's all like that. You've had dance training? Nope, you can tell, I have not. How's the community engagement impacted the way that you look at yourselves internally through an EDI lens or has it? Yeah, I would say that this process is continuing. It's going to always be continuing for the theater. I will say the two mindsets that sort of shifted with us is that I would say maybe four or five years ago we would go into a situation where we were invited into a conversation and we would have our programs and we might have taken a more prescriptive approach. Now when we're invited into a conversation we will come to the table and say these are certain assets that we have. You have a community action plan. What do you need from us and how can we be supportive of your efforts? So I think the mindset has been really pretty significant for us. The other is, and this is a struggle internally, particularly as a managing director, we take a look at administration departments, but if we want to have systemic change in our community, other successes are equal or even more important than your own organization's success, which is a very interesting thing from a sustainability perspective for your organization. I'll just give you a really practical sense of that. Every year we raise money from our audiences during a Christmas Carol to support another nonprofit. For a development director to say, wait, you're raising money from our audiences? We're talking about $110,000 here that we raised for the Boys and Girls Club. For a development director to understand that it's actually more important to... It's a hard, hard mindset to get through. If there are other questions, we'll pass them up. I'm going to go to the audience questions in the five minutes or so that we have left here. What does it signify that four white leaders are here to discuss engagement? Engagement is in quotes. If that's... how can we center the leadership of people of color? That's the question. It comes up in... I did not ask that particular question, but I asked why I should be on this panel because of where we are in our process. But it comes up in all of the other organizational... in the Shakespeare Theater Association, that there are theaters of color that have been doing this work from their inception, and that, yes... Yes. I think it's an important question. Yeah. It occurred to us in the ramp-up that there was a certain monochrome... monochromeality here. And let's just... I'm sorry if you don't mind. Right? So let's not say it's a problem with the panel. Take a look. I'm just trying to be honest about it. I was standing on top of the Powerhouse Theater looking down, and I'm like, these are engaged. This is the theater field as itself. And I found it really interesting the thought process of we all have a role to play and how to strategically use allies. And a lot of my work just personally outside of this room has been in the LGBT movement. And really mindful about how that movement strategically used straight allies in order to push marriage equality. And so I think we all have a role to play. But one of the roles that, obviously, we're not doing a good enough job in doing is putting people of color voices from. Yeah. So, five minutes. I think maybe it's just something to think about in terms of the pipelines that we were talking about earlier. You know, of like something to examine and look at within institutions of who needs to be leading this work. I mean, the pipeline argument is bullshit. Because I've been teaching in graduate programs for 10 years, and those, my students are predominantly female and predominantly people of color and they're not getting leadership positions. And this is not just five years ago. This is over the course of 10 years. I don't think you're making that argument. But I think it's a bullshit argument. Got some agreement out there. A couple of questions about board trustees, how you've involved your board to what degree. Chad mentioned that the impact council would include the trustees, anything that either of you, Megan or Amy, can add on how your trustees are involved. Just that, you know, the retreat transition process that I mentioned that led to, my hire was really board driven and they were really actively involved in saying they wanted to kind of shift the culture inside the organization. So I think there's a lot of buy-in from our board that feels really essential because when you start shifting from the inside like that, it can send trimmers that make people like where are we, where are we going, who's it going to be around, what does this mean? And I think having the board buy-in is really essential around that. And we've started that conversation around our leadership transition as well. But I got to say when I talked about the pushback that I was surprised by within the staff and artists and organization, the same has been true on the board, that there are people who, we are using the same language and there are people who we are not yet. And that education and training, I didn't realize how deep a need for the education and training that we need to do is. And so that awareness is vital in order for us to be able to move forward. So our last question, and we've got a couple that are similar, but I'll use this one. What ended up on your stop doing list in order to make space for new programings and initiatives around engagement? Anybody, can you come up with something? Sleep? No. That's a great question. I think it's endemic to the field. I think personally at Milwaukee Rep, I think our staff is just phenomenal. But particularly at this time of year, everybody's walking zombies, right? Was there anything intentionally though that you said we're going to stop doing this so we can make room? We've gone through an audit of our programs, particularly in education, to see what it is, I think as programmatic folks, we really want to address all the evils of the world. And the fact of the matter is is that there are skill sets and assets that we have that can address certain things. And we've got to admit that there are other organizations that do it much better than us and to support their efforts. And so we have cut some programmatic things that were near and dear to our hearts in order to add on others. I would argue though that that's not an equated balance. We have definitely taken on a lot more than we've cut. And we're going through that process right now and have been for about a year, but with a new artistic leader coming in, we have made it clear to our candidates that within the strong frame of our mission, everything is on the table in terms of how we move forward programatically that this is what we want our impact to be and how to do that is up for question right now. Megan, you get the last word. Anything that you've stopped doing or that you want to stop doing? You know, I think that for us, it's trying, it's about relationships. So trying to do fewer one-off event kind of things and more like what's sustainable and what can we connect for the long game. Thank you all. Will you help me thank the panel here? Thank you. Thank you. The next panel. Second half of this will please. I just want to go. Second half of this will please. Second half of this will please.