 Governor Samuel Autumn of Benway State has threatened to drag the federal government to court if President Mohammed Buhari's administration insists on implementing its grazing routes and reserves policy. The governor said the Land Use Act was explicit on the issue of land ownership and the management in the country. He stressed that any attempt to subvert his right as a governor through the creation of a non-existent cattle route and reserves would be challenged in court. He called on lieutenants of Mr. President to advise him properly on issues so that things would work better for the country. Pointing out that insisting on cattle routes in the 21st century when states had resorted to enacting laws was rich aggressive. We're joining us to discuss this is Michael Goosa, he's the State Attorney General in Benway State and of course is the Justice Commissioner. And we're being joined by Ladikwa Johnson who is also a legal practitioner. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. I hope that Mr. Goosa can hear us. It's good to have you here. Thank you. Good evening. I watched the clip of the Benway State governor talking this early this morning on another TV station. And he was very explicit as to his demands and what he thought of Mr. President. But when a governor says he's going to take the federal government to court, one would wonder if he has any legal backing whatsoever. I believe he does and it is a smart thing to do in the present circumstances. Because it seems that the federal government under this precedent is hell bent on either first was Ruga, Ranchin and now you understand he's looking at the so-called existing grazing routes. Whichever way the best I think and the smartest step the governor could take is to go to court to determine whether the law that existed before independence, whether it was subsumed under the Constitution and whether the rights to look at the competing rights of the pastoralists with the farmers and those who actually own the land. These are things that have to be looked at. It is not so simplistic. The federal government cannot just do what it seems to want to do. And then when you take everything in a holistic manner, the way the country is at the moment, the tensions, what have you, is best, instead of making it a political battle, is best to look at the legal perspective. Why do you think that the federal government is so in your words hell bent to recreate these grazing routes? There's no reason to hide it. Since we've had clashes between farmers and the nomads of the pastoralists, the government has always spoken and come down on the side of the herdsmen of the pastoralists. So I think the government is trying to say that, okay, let's see how they can sustain and keep their lifestyle, which is grazing and going from area to area. That's what they're looking at. But states have outright banned, especially South East states. Exactly. That's why we say that let it go to the courts. Let the courts determine. Can you stop someone from moving around in a federation? That's one question. Two, a person moving around grazing, going on other people's lands. Is it legal? So there are issues that have to be determined. And I think Governor Autumn has it right. And since his attorney general is on, he can tell us, I think they should go to courts. Mr. Goose, it's good to have you join us. I'm interested in knowing, because I'm guessing that you will be filing this suit on behalf of the Benouist state government. But my question, just as I asked him, because I listened to your principle this morning on TV, and he spoke very, he sounded very certain that the president obviously has an agenda of sorts. And that's why he is bent on going ahead with this grazing route. But why do you think that your governor is holding this position? And what exactly has pushed you and your principle to take this position of going to court and taking the federal government to court? Well, first and foremost, I want to thank you very much for having me in this evening. I want to say that I am 100% in support of what His Excellency, the governor of Benouist state has said, just like you've narrated. His Excellency, the governor, Samuel Autumn, is one man that believes in the rule of law and due process. And so when he came as governor of Benouist state in 2015, he met these killings, open killings in Benouist state by the headers. And so he now thought of what will be done to bring a check and so that his people will now live in peace. And he also saw this deal, which has been signed into law now, ranches, open grazing prohibition and ranches establishing law. And when it went to the Benouist state House of Assembly, public hearing was conducted, all the major stakeholders who felt concern came and gave their inputs as to what they would want this law to be. And at the end of the day, His Excellency, the governor, assented to this law. Even though that was assented to him in May 2017, he still gave a period of time because it was a new law so that everybody that was concerned can adopt to the new law. This was Emma bringing peace in Benouist state. And I want to say that you know that by virtue of the provisions of the Land Use Act, the land is vested in the governor of the state. Who was it in trust for the people of the state? And so now that we have this law in place, when they brought the issue of Ruga from two years back, we went to court. And the court declared the process that was initiated by the federal government as a penalty. And that the land is owned by the Benouist state governor. Who holds it in trust for the people of the state? And so federal government cannot now come and impose a decision to come and establish Ruga in the state. So that has gone. They have not even appeared again in that decision. So that is the position that we have in Benouist state. So what am I saying in essence? We have a law here that forbids open brazilian in the state. We have a law here that has repealed the law that created brazilian reserves in the state. And so together with all the instruments that were made during. And so for the federal government to now come and say they will come and acquire land in Benouist state to give it to these headers who have been killing our people, who have made our people to be in IDP camps for the past six or seven years, which is a private business. I think that is totally unacceptable. And we are not going to accept that. The entire people of Benouist state are not going to accept that. We are going to resist that move. And the only way we can do is by going to court to seek to address against the injustice that the federal government wants to come and establish these reserves in Benouist state. But if the federal government is insistent on this and the president had given the attorney general of the federation to go ahead to take a look at these grazing roots. Do you not think that maybe the presidency has done some feasibility studies and they have come to a conclusion that that might be a wholesome way to attack this issue of banditry? Well, the whole world will hear if it is within the powers of the president to take ancestral lands that belong to the people of Benouist state and give to his kids men who are the fuller needs who are coming in from Fudajalo and all over the place, all over Africa to come and take this land and give them the whole world will hear and that is why he is insistent on not insisting on moving to court. I'm so sorry to talk over you. So you believe that the president is doing this in the interest of his people who you call the fuller needs or the normers. This is what you think. What else? What else? You know that a lot of business in Nigeria is private business. They are doing it as a business. They are doing it as their private business. And here in Benouist state we are crop farmers. We have our farms. We are farming on our land. You will not want to come and take over this land and give it to another tribe. That is totally unacceptable. Interesting. I'm going to come back to you Mr Johnson because the attorney general seems to be clear on their stands as to what they want. But looking at it wholesomely and the same question I asked do you think maybe the federal government thinks that their plan would work because they have in Benouist state repealed a law and they have also put another law in place that bans open grazing and they gave ample time according to him for people to adjust but it seemed to have not solved the situation. So maybe could this plan by the presidency? I'm just asking. Look at your face. Could it be that maybe it would be a wholesome way to deal with the situation? From the president's point of view, yes. They are trying to look for a way to ensure that grazing still takes place in one form or the other. And that's why they said let's look at the 368 grazing reserves that were there some time. God knows how many years ago. And let's look at them. What about those ones that have been built upon? What if a refinery is not built on that? Exactly. What if we have train tracks? That is exactly why I said that they will be tied up in court for quite a long time because even if you are allowed to do it then each one will be determined on its merits. The particular land in issue as an example is it, as the attorney general says, ancestral land. Is it family land? Was it established? The fact that you grazed over the land, you understand? You'd come in, go out and whatever. Does not mean it is yours. Doesn't grant you an easement over the land. You may have been trespassing. Now the fact that they didn't prosecute you for trespassing at that time doesn't mean they can't do that now. So there are many things that will be taken into account and that's why I said what the governor of Benway State has said is a step in the right direction. It will sort the problem out. It would take quite a while but it would sort the problem out. Now, unfortunately this is not the time when the presidency should be insistent on such a thing. So you're saying it makes him culpable? It makes it seem like he has handed the unrest? It's not that it makes it. Are you saying that he's giving these so-called pandits or herders the upper hand? He's giving the impression. The average citizen will look at it. It's not politics. It's the impression that the presidency has given that they are backing the herdsmen or the pastures, whatever you want to call them. They're backing them because first they tried with the Ruga. They've tried several things. So people keep looking at it and saying, oh, you just keep coming back with this thing. You understand? So unfortunately for him, I believe that is the view of a majority of Nigerians. Mr. Goussel, my last question is to you. Before now, before we started having these clashes, we've always had these nomads amongst us. They believed with us. They grazed for years. At what point did it become a problem? Because now this is, yes, we know that guns have been introduced into the equation and so it changes everything. And people are being killed on their farmland and buried in shallow graves. But whatever happened, where did it go wrong that at this point, even the farmers in Benres state are saying we're standing behind the governor and we do not want to give our lands to be grazed on? Again, it's a two-prong question. Mr. President does have his own, some form of ranch when he goes home every time he goes for a holiday in his hometown. We see his ranch. So it really makes me wonder why ranching is not in the cards for Mr. President. Well, that is the problem that we also have here in Benres state because the headers that we used to know will come with their cattle and then the highest thing they will carry will be their sticks to control the cattle. But now the headsmen that you are seeing, you are seeing them with AK-47. And sometimes you don't even see them with livestock. You don't even see them with cattle. And so their gender now is different from what was obtainable long before now. Now they are coming with an agenda. They are coming to take over this land. They are coming to kill our people so that they can now take over their land and settle here. And we are saying that no, the headers that we used to know... Have you had a conversation with any of these people, for them to tell you, because I'm trying to understand where you got this conclusion from, that they want to take over your land, kill your people and take over your land. How is that even possible? Well, what is happening here in Benres state, most of the places that they have sucked these communities from their ancestral homes, if you go there now they have destroyed their graves, they have cut down their economic trees, they have destroyed their houses and they have settled on those lands now, as I talk to you. Interesting. And what's the government doing about it? Well, that is why we keep hearing our governor complain. Come to Benres state, you see more than 2 million people who are living in IDP camps. They have been ransacked from their ancestral homes. And you know that the state alone has limited powers. All this while, the governor has been managing even to sustain these IDPs in these IDP camps. It has not been easy. And I want to tell you that since this has happened, the federal government has never intervened. But we are saying that let us see how we can provide security for these people to go back to their ancestral homes and continue with their farming activities. Federal government has not come to Benres state to say that look, these people have been in IDP camps and this is what we are supporting. The 10 billion that the vice president came and promised the people of Benres that when he visited, up to today, we are not seeing a penny from that money that he came and promised. So I don't need a suzerain to tell me that they want to take over this land. Wow. Well, Michael Guza is the Benres state attorney general and Ladipo Johnson is a legal practitioner. Thank you very much gentlemen for being part of this conversation. Hopefully we will sometime in the future have the governor on this show to tell us extensively what exactly is going on in Benres state. Thank you gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Thank you all for staying with us. We'll take a short break and when we return I will be saying goodbye. I hope you've enjoyed all our conversations tonight. We'll see you tomorrow on Plus Politics as we tackle other political issues. I am Mary Anna Cohen. Have a good evening.