 Welcome back. It's nice to be back here together. It feels like we never left We are Get off and running on several different topics this first week of the session That will hopefully lay some groundwork to help us with bills that we are going to work on in the coming weeks I Thought it would be helpful to do a review of this bill that we voted out of committee in April since it has been a number of months since we looked in any depth at the at the details of S54 it is my Understanding that S54 is is on track to come to the floor of the house In the beginning of February it has a few other policy committees to To spend some time in so that they can be sure they've taken testimony from their Perspectives on on what Retail kind of a industry would look like in Vermont and then of course it Needs to make its way through the money committees so the bill resides right now in ways and means and There's a couple of different paths that it could take at this point if there was a need on the part of one of the Other policy committees to suggest a change We might we might weigh in on an amendment that the ways and means committee could add to the bill Or we could request that the bill come back to our committee to do that work So that remains to be seen But but I expect that We'll be trying to move this bill within the next six weeks through the floor of the house I wanted to refresh all of our memories on the details of the bill because When it becomes more real that it's coming to the floor of the house then your colleagues will begin to ask questions and what I've noticed from having conversations with members about it is There's a lot of detail and there's a lot of subtlety to the direction that we took on this bill That's important for us to be able to communicate to our colleagues who have not been as immersed in this as we In order to in order to help the house understand whether Members would like to vote for the bill or not. So I wanted to give us this time here with Michelle today I think we have about an hour on the agenda and and and an opportunity to jog through the bill and And ask questions And you should have on your iPads Three documents from me one being the the committee amendment That she passed out in April Another one are highlights for the amendment and then also the timeline So the timeline hasn't changed from what we had before the only new document is this summary And I thought if it works for you that I would just kind of go through the summary rather than going through the bill And then and then if you wanted if somebody has questions and we want to go back and look at specific language in the Bill that I can direct in there and we can take a look so this one this is just kind of organized because it's a big bill and So many people have questions about the bill. What's in it often opt-out taxes things like that Fall working with the chair and kind of put together some summary materials that you guys can use it with constituents or other folks To kind of hone down on some of these issues So starting out is just with the regulatory agency Because you're really familiar with this part because you spent a lot of time discussing it and we landed on having five members of the cannabis control board Each with a different appointing authorities The chair and the member of the board are all full-time state employees The chair's compensation is equal to two-thirds of the superior court judge and The other members is equal to one half of a superior court judge The board hires an executive director who has to be an attorney who has Regulatory and legislative experience That director is a full-time exempt employee and serves at the pleasure of the board There's also an advisory committee you guys talked a lot about you wanted to have a lot of different Expertise available to the board and so you came up with a list of what's here is I think 11 Specific folks who should be on there. So somebody with expertise in public health somebody an expertise with eggs somebody in laboratory science And that they will be part of advisory board But that advisory board is not the people on that it's not exhaustive the board under your language here Has the authority to ask whoever they want to be on the advisory board This is just kind of setting the floor saying the advisory board has to at least have represent, you know representation from these areas And then the the board can buy them up into subcommittees. Maybe they have a public health one Maybe they have a plant science, etc. But then that would be up to the board to do Anybody have any questions on regulatory authority So for licenses you recall you had six types of licenses so cultivators product manufacturers wholesalers testing labs retailers and integrated licensees So a person can hold a maximum of one of each type of license With the exception of integrated licensees are a separate animal But so that would be if you had a new applicant who was coming in they could have one of the five One of each of the five, but they couldn't have multiple so you couldn't have You know three separate retail shops in different places in the state You can only have one retail license the integrated licensee is what you came up with to address The existing dispensary so an existing dispensary right now there are five If they wanted to apply for a permit they could get essentially an integrated license So right now the dispensaries are vertically integrated So they're allowed to do everything from planting the seed to the sale, you know to the customer over the counter But that option doesn't exist going forward in the commercial market We're the exception of it would allow the dispensaries if they chose and they may choose not to do that But if they chose to that they would be able to have an integrated license and continue to be vertically integrated under the system The boards required to establish tiers for the cultivators and the retail licenses and can develop tiers for other ones You know a lot of talked about specifically with regard to The cultivation licenses wanting to look at making sure that there are options for small farmers for people to who might be Growing illegally now to be able to enter the market and trying to shift some of the illegal market into the regulated market And so not wanting to make sure that there's not just kind of these larger licenses So you'll see that the boards required to give priority to licensing small cultivators And that's under 500 square feet and consider policies that promote small cultivators For applicants you have to be 21 years of age and consent to release of all of your criminal history records and any administrative history records There was originally at the came over from the Senate a Residency requirement, but this can be removed that at the recommendation of the Commerce Committee based on Dormant Commerce Clause issues The boards are required to issue licenses as determined according to a system of priorities and the priorities Require consideration with certain criteria that you can see there Whether or not the applicant is an existing medical dispensary and good standing Whether the applicants would foster social justice and equity in the cannabis industry by either being minority or women-owned If they have plans to recruit hire and implement development ladder for minorities women or Individuals who have been historically disproportionately impacted by cannabis prohibition Looking at whether or not they're going to be paying a living living wage and offering benefits whether the proposal incorporates principles of environmental resiliency or sustainability including energy efficiency and The geographic distribution of cannabis establishments based on population and market needs. This is one that comes up I think in other contexts oftentimes people and Discussing the issue around towns and like if there's an opt-in and you have to opt in and are you going to see? Like all of the retail places all clustered in certain areas or whatever is the states We're going to be looking at and the board is going when they're going to be issued licenses It's going to know which towns have approved the retailers But they're also going to be looking and saying well based on population is do we need ten retail licensees in this town of 5,000 people maybe you do because maybe you're on the border and there's no other retailers within Vermont within 50 or 70 miles, but they'll be factoring that in What's an administrative history record? That would be like a regulatory record Let's say if you are an applicant and You know ran some kind of business that was licensed by the state and so so you had Some kind you guys probably know all that much better than I do because you handle That with Betsy am but if you are if you have the if the state had some type of administrative record, right? Did you did you get your documents in on time? Were you cited for violate, you know violations in your business things like that? Yes, yeah, so basically were you a good steward and basically doing what the state asked you to do and running your other business Thank you So, um, I just want to follow up on the question I posed to you in the off session One of my towns asked if they decided to opt in In the law retail Can they control or the number of licensees in their town? In other words, they don't want 10 because they're a ski area and it's very busy a lot of traffic But they They want some Can they control and I wasn't real clear from your answer and Tucker answers There's language here that board Can set sort of geographical But the local I'm talking about the locals now Well, I think there's I I'm unclear because I am unclear Um, and that is because it's not specifically addressed in there. There's no language specifically in the local government provision That says it basically is you vote to allow retailers or They're automatically banned so that it's kind of like a you open it up where you don't it may through the operation of Whatever the locals have with regard to zoning or what they have and they're able to do It may be that you know, whatever that it limits in that way at the local level Or it could be that basically as the state's looking in Because remember you didn't limit the number of licenses and here it's up to the canvas control board to basically look at supply and demand and figure out How many retailer licenses should we should we just basically anybody who applies and qualifies gets one Or are we going to say we're only going to issue maybe in the first two years only issue 20 retailer licenses statewide, you know, and therefore we're going to make sure we really spread them out or But there isn't there isn't specific authority in this bill that says that if the town votes that they can say Yes, we're going to allow retailers, but we're only going to allow to The board could Yeah, the board could Yeah, I'm meeting the line the last public that's up there Based on population and market needs is what they're going to make the decisions on this step pretty much to lock out all small towns I I would say not because when you think about like if you got a small town You could be a small town, but maybe there's no other towns that are around you that are doing that Donald Romantz sits on the border of new york and Massachusetts, right? I'm going to say you're going to have a lot of market Bennington also sits on the other end of it, which is a large population Right, so bennington has a license. Does that mean panel doesn't? Um, you know again, it's it's going to be subjective and up to the board looking at that and I think um, you know I would say People are going to be if if there is a need and there and you can make money there people You know people are not going to apply for a license in places They don't think that they're going to be able to make money And then the board's going to be looking at you know, if you're a border town Where are you pulling from right? So if you're close to massachusetts, you may not pull much because they can go to themselves But if you're you know, if you're near new york and their choices will go to vermont or i'll use an example There's a liquor store in bennington. There's a liquor store and panel right on the line The reason is because people from the other states come to panel and buy the liquor And stuff so that there is the There's two really close there if that applies the same to the cannabis then it makes sense With what the wording they're saying, but if it's strictly based on population and there's Tom will never do it You know less than 3400 Um Just the point it's okay for liquor, but i'm not sure but i don't know if my town would even allow it Yeah, when i went to college in northern florida and uh, there were certain things you could buy in georgia At the liquor store like grain alcohol and things like that Right, exactly and there was a liquor store right in the middle of nowhere on some old dirt country road, and that's where everybody went If a location is already selling medical cannabis Can that business sell What i call the retail You know personal use non-medical cannabis whatever they're gonna use out of the same facility Out of the same facility. I don't remember. I think maybe it's in there that I have an integrated license Yeah, they'd have to have an integrated license for one Unless they just went and decided not to do an integrated and they just wanted to get a retail license out of there Um, I think that if they're co-located then the board has to come up with Rules around how they serve customers with regard to both But the thing is is that if they if they were integrated they wouldn't have to get approval from the town If they just went for a retailer, they would have to get approval for for the town from the town So the local control we started dipping into that so just uh, so it's opt-in retail, but not for any of the other licenses Municipality can establish a cannabis control commission and that commission can Issue and administer local control licenses similar to what we have for liquor licenses And they can condition the issuance Of a license upon compliance with any zoning bylaw or ordinances regulating signs or public nuisances So basically using their inherent authority So it's not bringing any new authority there And they can suspend a revoke a local control license for a violation of any condition on that license And um an applicant for a state license Has to obtain their local license prior to being able to operate Under a state license under a state license So you have to if your local folks are requiring it in order to get your state one you have to be in compliance with the local currently any regulations about dispensaries being Within a certain distance of schools or daycares There is in statute. Uh, I think there is a thousand but for dispensaries or school Is that federal or state I would say if you do wind up doing something like that having something a little bit better clarity on that Because I know that uh, I think it just says a thousand feet and then the question is Is it as you drive it? Is it as the crow flies? How does that work? And then Right, yeah, it gets complicated It gets complicated and I can say that Not based on working on this but years ago On two different issues the legislature has considered kind of those little radius prohibitions Both on they were looking at having and they already have enhanced penalties for sale of drugs on school grounds or on Property of budding a school, but they were the legislature was looking at doing like a thousand foot radius and then there also was one about like essentially banning sex offenders from living within a school and I remember those debates You wound up basically making it so that some of your more urban Municipalities in vermont meant you didn't you had these big dead zones and some of the more Urban areas in vermont because of where the schools were located and things like that so it You have to think about whether or not, you know, you could might be able to get it in there But it you know, and maybe that's what you want is that it gets pushed out to the you know Uh Outskirts, but you may in some places actually effectively prohibited in some towns Advertising I'll spend a lot of time on this one. Um, so we have All advertising has to be approved by the board prior to publication Um Can't contain any statement. That's deceptive false or misleading promotes overconsumption Represents that it has curative effects Can't offer free samples Can't offer prizes or awards can't depict under 21s Enjoying cannabis or cannabis products and can't be designed to be or have the effect of being particularly appealing to folks Who are under 21 years of age In order to advertise through a particular They have to be able to Show the board that uh, no more than 15 percent of the audience is reasonably expected to be under 21 years of age so it's kind of Looking at I think what california has this has the Is it at 30 percent? And so you I think ended up 15 percent There's certain warnings that have to be on all advertisements And then down with the bottom there you see What is considered to be An advertisement So consumer protection. This is where I just kind of did as a catch-all for a lot of the different stuff that I think is They're small details, but often very important to people who are who are interested in the policy here So, um, all cannabis and cannabis products have to be tested For potency and for quality control In according to rules adopted by the board Um, a licensee that's subject to testing has to have its cannabis and its cannabis products tested by an independent lab So if you are someone who owns Who has multiple licenses You can't say well, I'm going to be a product manufacturer And then I'm going to send my products that I'm developing to my testing lab You have to use a different testing lab Um, all cannabis and cannabis products have to use a standardized symbol that the board's going to adopt And that would be on um, all of and on any product that is containing cannabis Cannabis products have to be packaged in opaque child resistant packaging And uh All cannabis and cannabis products sold by a retailer or an integrated licensee has to be in opaque child resistant packaging at the point of sale to the customer Cannabis products have to be labeled labeled with the date the product was manufactured the date the products best used by The ingredients contained in the product as well as information on the length of time it typically takes for products to take effect Appropriate warnings on the potential risk of consuming cannabis And the need to keep it away from people under 21 years of age That cannabis should not be used by women who are pregnant or breastfeeding and the use of cannabis can cause dependence in some individuals John So there's just looking at the bill and looking at the The room making around testing for cannabis product products and it says cannabis products So would that include included like with vaping? The actual cartridge Yep Okay So that and we might and I can find the language but uh, you brought that up when we were discussing that and I think I tweaked the language a little bit to make it clear that that would and I think It might be in the definition of products or something like that Yeah, I think given what we have heard in recent months about vaping injuries. We just want to make sure that testing of Yep cannabis products includes testing the vaping apparatus I'll take a look and see whether or not like I'm guessing, uh, I mean I don't know how you How you'll do it procedurally, but um Because there's a lot of dates in this bill no matter what somebody along the way is going to have to change All of that so I don't know what your plan would be once you hear from like natural resources and other committees You know you guys if you guys wind up doing A substitute amendment for your amendment that'll be on the floor Or however it goes, but you know little things like this if you want to tweak I can start keeping a little list you know like a little clarifying That things like that because I'll have to change all the dates anyway You know and you could do the dates in a ways and means or an approach But it's probably cleaner if you have all the policy kind of in your guv ops one along with the dates and things like that And then if they stick to the money stuff and there then it's a little easier. I think for folks to follow So package cannabis can only contain No more than 100 milligrams of thc unless it's a topical preparation Or it's a non consumable product There's certain products that are banned. So cannabis flower with greater than 30 thc solid concentrates with greater than 60 thc Oil products except those that are sold pre-packaged for use with vapes cannabis products that contain Delta nine thc and nicotine or alcoholic beverages So the combination so you can't have Uh tobacco and thc together you can't have I guess a lot of these companies developing these drinks, but you can't have a beer with thc in it So retailers and integrated licensees have to display safety information Um and then Honor before november 15th So it's a for next year the board has to submit recommendations as to whether cannabis and cannabis products should have a minimum amount of cvd to aid in the prevention Of cannabis induced psychosis that occurs in some users So the environmental provisions um These are actually um Um You have a report back from the board on a whole host of issues and things that the again natural is going to be talking about um so the Ed of the board after consultation uh with an honor Uh and agriculture is required to recommend Things addressing this list here. So state and local land use requirements Um, whether certain establishments should be regulated by secretary of health agriculture as farming. So we know that Is considered an agricultural product and is regulated by the agency of agriculture We got the same plant basically over here being regulated by a different agency for different purposes Uh, you know, should there be some kind of truing up or working together on that The water quality requirements for cannabis establishments The solid waste and hazardous waste handling requirements for establishments And any additional permitting or licensing recommendations So that's on the environmental and land use Then at the same time They have to report back after talking with the commissioner of of the of public service and the chair of the public utility commission On recommended building energy standards for cannabis establishments if they're different from existing commercial building standards recommended energy audit audits for establishments Including frequency of audits and who should perform those audits And energy efficiency and conservation measures applicable to cannabis establishments and again natural is going to be talking about those They are this Um and making recommendations the director So recommend the permits licenses or standards that a licensed cannabis cultivator or product manufacturer shall demonstrate as a condition of licensure So right now like the dispensaries So cannabis is not considered farming and so it's outside of that so they're getting different types of Permits, but there's not the the medical law is really kind of silent about that so they're just kind of plugging into the other areas of law and You know asking the state what kind of permits do you want us to obtain for that? So This is an attempt to really be super clear upfront about whether you're going to fit in You know as farming are you not going to fit in as farming and then what types of permits and licenses are you going to need from other agencies? So Michelle just to clarify I mean assuming this bill took effect today and I mean people started obtaining licenses I mean any any business is going to be subject to our current land use requirements act 250 All the a and r are permitting So I mean there's no exemptions anywhere in this bill to any of that So if This became effective today You had residential zoning Could you if you got a permit from the state to Can this residential area for commercial workers? To be in compliance with the local zoning organs That'd be does the right to farm trump the local zone Well right now this bill does not designate cannabis as an agricultural product or as or growing cannabis as as Farming for purposes of active so we would have to definitively Yes, make it agriculture. Yes And so what if I understand what this is doing? Is it's asking for recommendations exactly so subsequently next year The legislature could right say One way or the other right right now. It's not it will be subject to everything got it. The question is is because You have a cannabis plan and when attempt right now it's being treated as farming Between you know if you're growing the same plant, but you're now going it for different purposes You know should it still be considered farming or should it you have different requirements If it is declared farming there is a station that protects farming in the zoning So yeah, it would exempt you out of a lot And you can't make a local bylaw through Right, I only asked because Clearly zone residential But because they got a license to grow hemp Trump right Trump the local zoning so consequently some neighbors are not happy So that's all So so much I guess the question I'll put it a different should this be somehow Stated that clearly it's not an agricultural product Well, I think that what it's doing is yes, we're delaying that question. Yes, this is this is a Not even a a sly attempt to just kick the can down the road. This is This is you know because because You know getting the Standing up and getting licenses is a little ways down the road This is saying well, let's come back and look at that after we've started to really grapple with it You know one issue that O'Grady and I were talking about this morning And I think we hadn't really thought a whole lot just thought about the timing is that You know if this past this year And then you stand up the board in the fall and the board initiates rulemaking You know quickly as it's required to and then Comes back to the legislature next january with its recommendations. It should be farming. It should not be farming There are going to be in the process of rulemaking For all the other stuff and the licenses without Having that addressed and so just from a time just to just to say, you know the timing issue I think but I think it'll again It'll be probably discussed in the other committee and so you make it a recommendation Just to Remind folks what some of the thinking was around kicking this can down the road we We know that there are farm establishments out there who Who are struggling and who might look for another cash crop to enable them to continue to support their dairy operation Or to you know save a little money for retirement, etc Those are challenges that our farms are seeing right now. So We didn't I didn't want to make a some sort of definitive blanket declaration about whether Growing a cannabis plant is agriculture or not agriculture because there may be something in the tiered licensing idea that says for very small scale growers that You know that maybe it is appropriate for them to have the ability to do that on their existing agricultural land And so leaving that to the board to to really kind of take a deeper look at the landscape and ask for Input from all of the folks on their advisory committee about land use and and you know soil and water and energy and all of that That's not necessarily something that I feel like we have expertise in But we're building a board that would have the ability to To have expertise on those issues I just want to clarify I I don't use the term kicking the can down the road as a disparaging remark at all So it's a it's a very very valid frequently used legislative strategy In terms of when you need more information and certain experts and things like that you say well We've got all the information we need on this, but we need this but let's keep the train Okay So highway safety so First The amendment makes a ride training a part of all basic law enforcement training so there's like three Levels you can't remember what the first level is like when officers are getting trained So the kind of basic roadside then there's like a ride which is the middle then there's the d re training The a ride training is offered now, but it's not required for everybody and so that would require that all officers be a ride trained by the end of This would be now going to 21 Make saliva is added to the definition of an evidentiary test So evidentiary saliva tests are added to the implied consent statute in the same manner as blood tests So when you have your driver's license and you're driving you're considered to have given consent for saliva if Law enforcement has a reason to believe that you're operating under the influence They have to obtain a warrant just like they would for a blood draw to do the to do the saliva so It also codifies the presumptive admissibility of field sobriety tests and d re evaluation results It adds EMTs and paramedics to the list of professionals authorized to take a blood sample It specifies that you can't take blood blood samples on the roadside Amendment requires a person to make arrangements for his own independent chemical analysis, so if they take if you have There's a warrant blood is taken or saliva is taken and it's tested if you want to have it independently tested. That's your responsibility It's not the state's DPS is required to report to the standing committees by January of next year regarding a plan to establish geographic equity in the distribution of d re's throughout the state um, and then if the n h t s a approves a roadside chemical testing device and establishes a threshold level of thc To demonstrate impairment then To issue a report that sets out a plan for using those devices in vermont warren I'm really wondering about that in the things and relying on the drug recognition Experts who are human and have human frailties and I worry about The level of competence among that entire group of people Have you heard or has vermont and jama heard anything about the continuing search for a an effective roadside test of impairment And uh, I know what's happening You can imagine there's a lot of states that are looking for that And there's probably a lot of companies out there looking at a lot of money to be made by development of that technology So I I don't know what the latest is. You can certainly talk to law enforcement about that But I know, uh, you know, it doesn't exist yet, but a lot of people are working on it Any other questions? Um, so money provisions. So you have your seven, uh Positions creative. So you have your five board and your ed and uh an administrative assistant Uh board is required to provide recommendations to the general assembly regarding resources necessary for information of the implementation of the act for the two years following So, um, they would be coming back and saying, okay, this is what our build out This is what we're recommending our build out looks like, you know In terms of once we have all these people licensed, we're now we're going to have to do spot checks We're going to have to do enforcement. We're going to partner with this agency. These are the resources we need These are the positions we need They have to consider utilization of current expertise within state government and whether you could utilize other other agencies or other positions There's a 800 and 10 000 appropriation And that is to cover the salaries and benefits operating costs for space it supplies and I think a little bit of money built in there for That we think that could be used for the advisory campaign proteams for the advisory committee and also, you know, maybe a little money for a consultant, but probably not much And then let's see and then the there to be working on the build out for as I mentioned for the second and third fiscal years The appropriation is made in anticipation of receipts So what you have is you establish the cannabis regulation fund in this bill The fund is to be the repository of all the fees that are collected. So the application fees the license fees The approval, you know, the review of the advertising fees all of those types of fees goes into this cannabis regulation fund But because you won't have any fees going in there until after the board is up and running and the rules are adopted You got to you got to just run out of deficit within that fund And then what happens is then the fees are coming in filling in the fund and then at the end of I think f y 22 you'll see down here at the bottom Uh If there's still a deficit within that regulation fund then Tax monies that are used from the sale of cannabis and cannabis products will go and fill that hole It won't continue to go in there, but it's basically going to fill the hole If basically run at a deficit a couple of years after trying to stand it up The fees are not set in here Remember that it asks the board to come back and make recommendations on all the different types of fees because there's a lot of different Fees that contained and then there's probably going to be different tiers within each different types of licensing and the board would be just You know saying well if you're a cultivator under 500 square feet We're going to do this kind of a thing if you're a cultivator and we got you know 50 000 square feet then you're going to have this kind of fee. So they're going to come back and give you recommendations for those There's a 16 percent retail tax on all cannabis and cannabis products that are sold by retailers and integrated licensees So there's not something going in between at an early just like a wholesale tax or anything like that earlier 30 percent of the tax revenue is dedicated to the substance misuse prevention fund So that was a new fund that was created in here That's going to be administered by the commissioner of health And so that's capped at six million dollars a year. So if you imagine let's say that Um, I don't know the timing works, but let's say that you've had some retail sales in uh, July of 22 If you have a hole still in your cannabis regulation fund Because you didn't collect enough fees based on your what you would cost you to run things up until that point The first tax money would go to fill the hole in the regulation fund And then then and then you would go to 30 percent of that tax revenue would then be going to the substance misuse Fund and then the rest of that money that would can't be generated would be going to general fund Um musicality can collect a two percent local option If they have either a retailer or an integrated licensee in their town And That goes To the meeting we just like collects it sends it to the department and then it goes back to this municipality. There is Can I just ask a question? I believe revenue starts coming in In that point 21 Right I have to look at the timeline. Sure. I think that was the intention I have to sit there and look I was trying to think when calendar year and then fiscal year and then how does it all do so I have to look at and kind of Maybe do a little timeline, but I don't think there's any reason for that And then finally Couple years out auditor of accounts is required to report back to general assembly whether or not the organizational structure Basically that you guys have set up Is the most efficient means for carrying out the statutory duties of the board going forward So you're kind of starting out with this structure, but you know once it's kind of up and running and going Does it still make sense to have this board? Or should it be kind of restructured to be more of like a typical Any questions for rachel on this section? Other follow-up so remind me again, okay Other questions, okay, jim. Maybe this is more of a question for you Um The bill isn't ways and means now Did I take it from michelle's comments earlier that they would just deal with the monetary aspects or are they likely to make policy changes that we will either have to endorse or Object to and same with appropriations. Have you got maybe I have I have asked that that policy changes be Be brought back to this committee so that because As you can imagine if you You know if you start pulling on one end of things that impacts other aspects of the bill and So they might have some suggestions They might Um, I think it would be helpful for us to talk for a few minutes About a meeting that we had yesterday and I'll let john Talk a little bit about about our our meeting In general we We are making a recommendation on these issues to the money committees and of course they have the final say The challenge with the money committees is that Ways and means always likes to know how much money are they needing to raise In order to set the tax rate and of course Appropriations wants to know how much money they have to work with And so it's a bit of a chicken and an egg and so We have begun the conversation of trying to help the ways and means appropriations committees Get a sense of what what is the the best thinking about how to move forward with What should the the monetary needs be based on The size of the board and the recommendations that we've made and what should the tax rate be in order to To cover what we've put in for priorities, which is filling in the The cost to stand up This new industry and then having revenue to put towards prevention. So John if you want to talk a little bit about some of the meeting that we have So kitty asked us before the meeting to caught and play what a small medium and catalac version Of this would be and both sarah and I agreed that the way to focus on that is the size of the board For the most part. So what we looked at was going down for small having a three-member board Which is what was in the original senate version of the bill that came to us That would reduce those costs To many a medium size would be What's currently in the bill, which would be a five-member board with the prevention money Being spread out a little whereas a catalac version would have more prevention money front loaded And I think You know Appropriations will decide I think somewhere between a small and medium size process the other thing that that We looked at was the advisory committee In the size of it. It's currently a lever minimum of 11 members. Can you be more comfortable if we cap that at 11? Limited the number of meetings they could have per year and also Put in the bill that the per diem and expenses would come from the cannabis regulation fund And right now that does not spill out where those Where the that expense would be coming from any questions on that I have a question about the The process for the prioritization for licensure. So the board Had a focus on social justice and equity and my understanding is that was considered in order to Repair harm to people of color who have been disproportionately Prosecuted and convicted. So if if i'm a minority Owned business And I had something on my record How's that going to be considered The board is required to adopt rules to effectuate the priorities that you're setting forth in the in in this bill And so they would come up with you know, maybe Maybe there's a point system or maybe there's certain questions They ask or maybe there's certain types of programs that that people would apply under Um with regard to that states do it in different ways. It's really kind of um an emergent You know, it's a newer idea with the with the states that have just recently adopted Um recreational markets and so um, so I think that they would look at so it would be the board kind of Determining how they would go about Recognizing those as priorities And could they consider expungement of those We could the board expunge or I don't know Introduce that as a process Uh, there's nothing in here about that about expungement I mean, I will say that the legislature has been working pretty hard the last few years on providing Mechanisms that are some in existing law now and there's another bill this year. I'm looking at You know ways that people can expunge Uh things on their criminal record and specifically with regard there are our Processes for being able to do that for cannabis convictions Okay, and I think we'll be are already as a process whenever you Records of the potential licensee They can make You know subjective decisions about the appropriateness of Providing the license or rejecting that applicant for a license. Okay, so I believe That model already exists. Um, you know, if you're concerned that we don't have done enough Maybe it's good to it would be good to talk to OPR I'm actually already talking to them about a similar issue And there are other states that when they look at people's records now like they since States have done, you know, they might assign like a point system to certain types of crimes. So, you know, maybe kind of Non-person-to-person non-violent crimes maybe fit this category, right then things like this they say You know, you get higher points and then, you know, financial crimes like Embezzlement or things like that get these other, you know, kind of stuff and then it's a point But states do it in different ways and so And all that stuff obviously comes back before elk are so you guys get another crack at it So there will be um They're They're very likely will be recommended changes to the the bill from our money committees one other Area of conversation that I wanted to make you aware of we We had contemplated having the auditor come back with a report to the legislature after four years to recommend whether this is the structure that is most necessary for the ongoing Regulation of this industry There's there is another way to to trigger the legislature to revisit the conversation of Whether a five-person board is going to be necessary once we have this industry up and And running and that would be to sunset the the cannabis control board after a certain number of years And so I just want to flag that as one of the possible Um preferences of our money committees That may may come back to us to to think about Any other questions for michelle has there been any action at the federal level to reclassify Not that I know of The only significant piece of legislation is the safe act which puts more to banking on the banking issue Super well if you don't have any other questions I hope you feel fully immersed and are having flashbacks to long days with this bill last april But uh would Welcome you to uh to reach out to me or john or um or michelle directly if you hear from colleagues who have questions Or if you hear from constituents who have questions Um, it's this bill is going to become much more real Now that uh, we have an expected timeline for the floor for the bill to come to the floor of the house and so I expect that people's Questions and and focus on this will become more intent as we move forward. So Thank you for Helping us to revisit as to report Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you. So committee before we shift here I would also wanted to let you know that on thursday at 11 a.m There's going to be a press conference I will be at the press conference speaking alongside Dick sears to talk about what we expect the process and timeline is going forward And we will be welcoming any members who wish to stand with us at that press conference Although you'll notice that we do have some work on our agenda on thursday morning But we may we may just work in a break to To push pause on our Work on public records for a few minutes to allow members of this committee who would like to participate in the press Thursday at 11 Senator straight just asked me to come in and update them. What's going on on thursday at 11? I don't know. They said Scheduled Well senators years and I will be out of press conference, but I don't expect it to last very long so so It is important for us to Take a moment here at the beginning of the session to review the government accountability committee work and The ways that we can measure the performance of our government Agencies And so I've asked Betsy and in drew to visit us again and it is my hope and intention that we Can Come back to this more frequently than we have in the past And use this as uh as the lens through which we Look at how state government is working for our constituents So, thank you. Betsy and thank you. Hi everybody. Well, welcome back. It's nice to see you back here Uh for the record Betsy and rask legislative council I handle government operations and that includes staffing the government accountability committee, which is made up of four house members and for senators and uh the chief performance officer in the agency administration serves as a non voting liaison And we have a GAC member right here in this committee Rep JP is on the GAC and Starting this past session when we began serving as a legislator So as its name suggests the government accountability committee Focuses on how government can be more accountable to vermont or so What does that mean in practice the way I think about it is Proving to vermont that the laws that you enact are actually Benefiting vermoners. They're doing what you wanted them to do Um, and you can prove that they're doing what you wanted them to do and that they're having a benefit um So GAC got started in 2008 and GAC is Focused on different mechanisms of how to make government more accountable to vermoners It started in 2008 In what is called the challenges for change act and for those of you've been around for a while Challenges for change is essentially a term of which we will not speak any longer because It is over and done with now, but the one thing that was Still happening in challenges for change was not only the creation of the GAC, but this report on data that measures the state's progress and reaching certain goals and So when I first started in the legislature The challenges for change that was really what was all that was left of that act was the creation of the GAC and this report on measurements But then that was finally repealed in its place GAC In the legislature and acted in the law your 10 outcomes for the state And then the indicators to measure the progress to reach To measure the progress and reaching those outcomes And now GAC has moved into different methods to have a focus on government accountability And I will review that with you in a moment, but Big picture GAC has a statute in title two It has its overall purpose and i'm reading from this draft GAC report The GAC has reviewed this report you'll see highlighting through this report Those were just the few tweaks that the GAC had requested To this report and GAC is meeting later on this week to approve a final version of it But this is the substance of what the GAC members have approved so far But GAC specifically in its statute is supposed to recommend mechanisms for state government to be more forward thinking Strategic and responsive to the long-term needs of our monitors And there's nine specific tasks in their statute that they have to pursue that goal They're generally about how to Analyze the effectiveness of government And then they have some specific requirements That are applicable here to what they're recommending for this year It's recommending enhancements to the legislative process To support greater long-range planning and responsiveness to your monitor's needs And then recommending strategies for all three branches of government to prioritize The investment of federal state and local resources and programs that respond to those needs So we've got only a finite amount of money How are you going to make your decisions on how to spend that money? And how are you going to use your limited legislative time to determine what sort of bills you want to enact the law? And that's really what GAC is trying to focus on now How to make the legislative branch focus more on really looking at the resources you have and figuring out how to wisely spend those resources So the report talks about the outcomes and indicators As a reminder your outcomes are set forth in this statute. Here they are. They're 10 goals for the state like our monitors are healthy Our elders live with dignity and in settings they prefer and we have an open effective inclusive government You've got the indicators. This is on your web page This this is the data that gets reported annually that measures our progress in reaching those outcomes And then performance officer puts together an annual state outcomes report that shows those The indicator data for each of those outcomes and we looked at that beginning of last year So you're familiar with the outcomes and indicators The administration also Has its own form of using data to measure progress when it puts out its annual performance measure budget report where it has performance measures for many Programs in an executive branch that kind of measures how well each of the programs are performing. So we've discussed those issues before What GAC is really focusing on again is What else can be done to make government more accountable and they're suggesting in this report That you can have more accountability embedded into the legislative process And to help legislators frame how that they can do this the GAC how to workshop in early november There were about 80 legislators. I believe that attended And the focus it was led by Drew Rusley who is our performance improvement director in the agency of human services And the chief performance officer is suzela and the agency of administration plus rep cornheiser Who has a background in performance accountability? I think with nonprofits So they led this discussion for the legislative workshop and I believe rep cornheiser might even come back to your committee to talk further about this So today, I'll just give more of a high-level overview of what was discussed at the workshop And GAC will be holding more workshops for legislators to attend to Try to have more of a focus on What you're doing and how the legislative process can actually be proven to show that it's helping Create the change that you want to see so the one One of the ways that the GAC recommends that this can be done Is when you start thinking about what you want to propose in a bill Because one legislators as the report indicates one legislators introduce bills You're trying to address an issue, right? That's why you introduce legislation. You see a need for Some sort of change being necessary. And so you introduce a bill on the topic What GAC is recommending in their report is for legislators to think more critically About whether the idea for a bill is really the most effective way To address the issue that the legislator perceives And the GAC is recommending that this critical thinking include data But also fact finding to understand the root causes of an issue An understanding of what drives the root causes And how the impact of a bill That's intended to improve the issue could later be evaluated After it's enacted in the law In order to determine whether that law is actually addressing the issue like it was originally intended as the legislature enacted it And GAC states in their report That it's important for legislators to think really critically about whether to introduce a bill and the language it contains because In addition to the actual impact it's going to have on vermoners. What's once it's enacted All stages of a bill use valuable limited state race sources of time money and energy That's what it takes to do anything right time money and energy So that includes The legislative staff time to draft and edit it and to analyze its fiscal impacts and the schedule testimony on it And understand and explain the consequences of it. It takes your time Your valuable limited time to review and understand and debate a bill There's the major consuming time of the executive and judicial branches to execute and interpret the law Effort after it's enacted and then the overall fiscal cost of the state of actually supporting it All of that goes into a bill as it moves through the process So GAC and its report is encouraging legislators to be Fully informed about the impacts their bill idea would have And whether their bill idea is the correct solution to address the issues that the legislator perceives And so GAC is recommending some just common sense questions that legislators should consider when evaluating their idea for a bill And they put together at this workshop this handy dandy Hand out that's at the end of the GAC report It's called the legislative intent guide and these you'll see are pretty simple questions But the point of these questions the GAC says is to help a legislator be more informed about What they're trying the issue they're trying to solve and how to go about solving it So these questions are pretty simple. It's what's the primary issue that you're hoping to resolve in your bill What are the long-term goals or desired goals that would be met if this issue were resolved What data and info Helps illustrate the forces Around the issue and unpack the root causes of the issue What's the specific change you want to propose in your bill? How does your proposed change address those driving forces or root causes of the issue? What's your specific desired result of the changes you propose in the bill? And how are you going to know what happens as a result of the bill if the bill's enacted in the law? How will you know that it's doing what you wanted it to do? Really goes part of it is going to the data that's available You've got the state outcomes report that provides that indicator data on each of the outcomes. So that's some data you can use To see You know if for example, we're just talking in Seneca box about the smoking age bill You know, you saw an issue the legislature saw an issue and smoking and so you look at the data to determine that the legislature Seems saw an issue with smoking and that's why you enacted the higher smoking age bill for example If you're looking to solve an issue on the program level You could look at the administration's programmatic performance measure budget to look at How programs are performing? Are they still necessary? Do they need to be more robust? Or are they not necessary? But in addition to data, it's also just talking with people about the issues that they're experiencing To better understand them yourselves as legislators the GAC says in this report Um GAC advises that when you have this Greater understanding of the issues that you're trying to address Your legislation will be better. You'll be able to tell legislature counsel. For example, exactly What you want to do and the language that you want to see to address the issue you're perceiving And also it's going to help legislators prepare to back up their bill when they come into committee To introduce it to a committee to justify why they introduced it in the first place and why the bill is needed And then once it gets to you GAC has some questions that it believes that committees could use when looking at bills in your review in order to understand whether the bill reposes the correct policy and Whether there should be any tweaks to the language in the bill in order to actually get at the issue Because a committee's role includes understanding and analyzing policy in order to make recommendations on it So GAC says in its report that not only should individual legislators Be introducing well-informed bills But committees also should use their own tools to evaluate whether a bill proposes An effective means of addressing an issue within a committee's jurisdiction because your time is valuable Um GAC says in its report that committees can use their limited time more effectively by scheduling the most appropriate witnesses Who represent a range of viewpoints because you don't want to just hear from People with one viewpoint. You don't want to have a one-sided understanding of an issue You need to understand what you don't know and what info you need to find out in order to evaluate a bill And then you need to understand how to use that information to make a final recommendation on a bill and so GAC is recommending that committees can Ask some simple questions prepare for a hearing in advance of a hearing And and in order to orient yourselves to the issue in a bill such as these questions like what What are the a basic question is what witnesses do we need to hear from? Who's got the subject matter expertise Who has individual experiences that speak to what's being proposed in the bill and who has the data? That can help the committee understand where you are right now On the issue that's being addressed in the bill And then How will you understand what committees do you? Who do you? Sorry, what witnesses do you need to hear from to not only understand the bill's language and policy implications But also any unintended consequences if you do what's proposed in a bill Also, what's the rationale of the people that are advocating for and against it? Where are they coming from? What info do you need to understand the bill and how are you going to use it? They have a handout for this as well. It's called The data and inquiry committee guide And so we reviewed the info on the witnesses and Figuring out the information that you need to evaluate the bill But then they also have some neat questions down at the bottom. I think for individual committee members to really As you're listening to testimony If you're not fully understanding all of the information some questions that ask of the witnesses that are before you such as I'm new to this issue. Can you explain the problem or issues that have led to the discussion that we're having today? What do you hope changes as a result of the bill? What do you think are the general assumptions about the issue versus what the data is telling us? So there's just some questions that the committees members can ask that the gap is suggesting that you use during your committee process And gack finally in its last part of the bill Its report is recommending that you Attend more some of their trainings that they're going to be offering. So they had their workshop there was kind of an intro to how to Keep charging ahead on performance accountability And they will be having some more accountability trainings They I believe they're going to be meeting this Thursday When they review this final report and talk more about the performance accountability trainings And they're going to plan them and i'm sure you'll be getting more info on them in the future So that was the big picture of the report. I don't know if drew would like to add anything At this point, but drew has definitely been an asset to the committee along with archie performance officer And helping legislators kind of think outside the box There was one thing in the report that I forgot to mention that I think that needs is emphasized And one of the things about accountability that the gap is also suggesting that The legislature do is not only be in the business of an acting law But then also looking back at the law and figuring out if it was actually doing what you wanted it to do in the first place And this is mentioned toward the end of their report So it's easy to just Understand that there's an issue Well, maybe not easy, but your main role here what you mostly do here is enact laws And to address issues, but then the question is Is the bill that's enacted in the law is that law actually doing what you intended So one of the things that gax suggests is you can't have sunsets in laws That kind of forces you to go back and look at an issue you do this in multiple occasions A couple I can think of is for example, the search and rescue training committee That committee has a sunset you have extended it once so far because you saw the continuing Value of having that search and rescue training committee There's also for example a Temporary Funding source for the ethics commission is another example. So you will need to Consider whether you will extend the funding for the ethics commission You will take a look if you if you do nothing that funding source will run out So those are ways to kind of force the legislature to Look again at an issue to determine whether the laws you enact are actually doing what you wanted them to do Another way to do it is to just call witnesses back in after you've enacted a law To talk about is it actually doing what we wanted it to do whether it is the executive branch That's executing it or the people that are actually affected directly by it And another method a third method is to actually require in enacted legislation A report back on data because having that report back on data Many times in verbal form if it's not necessarily in written form You can just have the executive branch for example come back to the data That explains how the bill enacted in the law is actually performing So those are some methods that I thought I would mention because it's I think Seneca box was just talking about the same issue before I came up That many times it's enacting laws and then It's not such a common practice to then follow back up on how the laws are performing I'll end it there any question for me so Say you have a an issue that Is common to five different legislators and they're each coming at it with their own bill So how might this process? connect them So you have one bill maybe That might be stronger than the five individual approaches I can at least address one bar at least from the legislative drafting perspective So any legislative A legislator request for a bill draft by law is confidential Unless the legislator requesting it Allows us to share The request with other interested legislators So if and we try in legislative council, it's for our benefit too We try to be good about asking legislators if there are other similarly interested legislators Would you like me to share with them that you have requested still? I try to be good about it, but then again sometimes I get drafting requests in the bathroom So it's not always easy for me to remember to ask that question It's helpful for us because if there's many interested legislators and they're all trying to do the same thing Then that's going to be a collection of people in just one bill But there's different reasons why that it's not always Possible to have co-sponsors and maybe there are five individual bills on the same subject I think at least one possibility is for the committee to See. Oh, I've got these 10 five bills on the same topic Perhaps one way for you to work in committee is to ask the legislators to come in and talk about The common interests and where they could find some headway or maybe the legislators themselves would say Oh, we all have similar bills Where where can we all get together and agree on the same issues? Drew, would you add anything to that? I would just add from the Listening into the government accountability committee conversations. This did come up several times And in addition to what Benzianne offered there was discussion around Imagining using a legislative intent guide as a way to actually help facilitate that conversation between multiple legislators And of course, I know that all of this requires coordination in time, which is not always available to a citizen However in advance of submitting a bill request to legislative council, you could also imagine Thinking of a different mechanism by which you can sort of get the word out To fellow legislators that you were considering Asking for a bill to be drafted and when anyone else liked to do that have that conversation up front So we imagine the legislative intent guide as we were working with it at the workshop To be useful at a bunch of at several different points in time During the legislative process. So certainly upon drafting or considering an idea that may be useful to have drafted in a bill At the point that you may bring a bill, introduce a bill to a committee to have the sponsor or at least the committee as a whole Be able to move through it with the legislative intent guide Make sure it's to your understanding of what the bill is trying to do And then also if trying to consider combining several bills to be able to ensure that there is clarity and consistency through the language All you know, all strategies laid out in the bill or all the means when you do the same But it's a I love thinking about that question because it's I think that that would um Clarify some of what the legislature is intending to work out. You can do different bills that may be different, but Thank you All right Jim Give the committee member No, it's done a good job Okay, I explained it very well. The big thing was the history And I wasn't even aware of some of that Did you could do as good a job as you might have If you can't get called upon Unfortunately, I was not able to attend that training due to a family emergency, but anyway, um They are going to ask more training and I've heard nothing but good about that training session that they have And they're going to have a repeat I believe it's going to be pretty much the same thing, right? And I would highly encourage everybody who didn't go to the last one to try to make this one It might be good for some of these prolific bill generators to maybe attend People in the decade Are you pointing at me? I'm not And the balloon lands over that So thank you, Betsy, and I would love to invite Drew to join us and the chair and Said when we kicked off here at the beginning We are looking for ways that we can make better use of this as the government operations committee And You know happy that we do have a member of our committee who's Who's serving on GAC and And also would look to you for some recommendations sure Um, hello everyone drew restly I am the performance improvement director at the agency of human services And I'm lucky to sit at the government accountability committee meetings with Sue Zeller the chief performance officer who's a non-boarding member Um, I don't have a prepared testimony today And I'd like to sort of consider myself as just to support an elaboration to betsian As well as the committee and the chairs Senator colmore and representative townsend thank you and Representative cornhizer who I Here is coming back. So you can consider anything I say in the context of what they Present to you, but we did discuss several strategies at the workshop that's been mentioned And one of those was the legislative intent guide, which I kind of elaborated in response to representative colson's question But I think you'll see that we're the government accountability committee is making an effort to expand the use of the language That is available to legislators beyond just one or another framework. We've spent a lot of time in vermont Using results based accountability But that is not the only methodology that exists for asking common sense questions To move from what we're trying to accomplish through to how we might do it And so we wanted to sort of broaden the questions to make sure that it was accessible to everyone So this legislative intent guide can be used at several different points throughout the legislative process So one page document very simple something you could print out and have in front of you Um Or keep in your back pocket as you think about legislation that you may want to introduce Um, I won't go through it all again in detail as Betsy and I just did and I know you all have a copy But it was intended to be quite versatile And I think as a collaborative tool working together to move through a bill especially in committee It could be an excellent way of making sure that um That no one is getting lost in the weeds. I understand how dense testimonies can be at times And I also know partially because I've written one or another myself How dense reports can be that come from the executive branch And as you're thinking about how to draft legislation or how to change legislation Or potentially how to consolidate legislation And certainly communicate about it on the floor or to one another This can be a useful a useful tool for guiding the conversation Um right so an a lot as a second step um and Representative um fromstead who sits on the government accountability committee has been passionate about this piece of the work um Is sort of an elaboration of that legislative intent guide that focuses a little bit more on the data and information that you might look to specifically to help um articulate the measurable issue that the legislation is attempting to resolve Or the measurable intent So how might you be able to understand if we are making progress using data over time? um, so this piece of the legislative intent guide asks for um One to three specific measures of programmatic performance or statewide conditions that might help you to understand those questions You can apply this is intended to be not to um bureaucratic However, i'm seeing some of my own tendencies toward bureaucracy in here. Um You can apply your own basic criteria to understand the extent to which the data you ask for will actually be useful to you That's obviously the primary criteria Will you have an interest in looking at the data that you've asked for and will you be able to understand it? And if the answer to those questions are no Then it might be worth thinking what other type of information or or format of information is going to be useful for answering your questions But first things first can the data you're interested in actually be collected Sometimes the answer to that question is no and if my colleague She performance officer suzella was here. She would tell you about some of her frustrations With some of our inability to collect certain pieces of data that you might expect we could I'm not sure if any of you are involved in technology conversations that happen around here But there's a direct connection to what the technology we purchase enables or doesn't enable So that's always an important question to keep in mind there Is the data updated frequently enough to be useful? So if you pass a piece of legislation and are really interested in what the outcomes are Of that change in the next year the data may not be sensitive enough yet to actually help you understand that so having is um having a sense of How frequently the data is collected and when you might have a real read on the impact of the change made through the legislation Is an important thing to keep in mind Can I communicate about the data clearly so my colleagues can understand? I mean, this is something we think about in the executive branch all the time If the data is too technical, it's not going to be useful for um using it to understand Current state or or the impact of certain changes Um and finally would the information help us understand something centrally important to legislative intent? So um data is great, but not if it's irrelevant to the conversation you're trying to have So just making sure that the data is actually useful is really what this is getting at Um these questions in some ways elaborate not about the data, but how you will use the data So we know that the legislature has several mechanisms in place to Internalize information and do something with it. Um, and so in some ways this is just about thinking how you will integrate use of data in those existing mechanisms for instance committee hearings or joint committee hearings or public hearings or Reports that the executive branch will submit and I also know that some legislators are in the practice of actually visiting With one or another organizations or systems that have actually done work to implement legislation And certainly that type of activity will give you a really good read much more so than a graph or a chart Well about how things are going I'll probably kick myself for saying that later, but you know what I mean Um, and so I have a note to myself down here that this is an adapted performance note You may remember from last session we talked about the performance note And this is basically that idea Is there a way for us to just keep tabs on the information that we think will be helpful to us moving forward? Any questions about that? It's pretty straightforward It's really just a matter of getting used to using it and seeing if it's something that really works for you The government accountability committee has a theory that it will be helpful But it's up to you to really test that theory And then um, we had some fun at the workshop In a mock committee hearing which was representative cornheiser's idea Um, playing out essentially what could happen in a committee hearing if there wasn't clarity around what you were listening for and why you were having the testimony and as betzian emphasized Your time is limited and valuable and so how you want to use it Especially in this room and in this format Is something to think about So this data and inquiry committee guide is essentially organized to think about How can you as a whole committee plan for the testimony that you want to hear Based on the different legislative intent that you're working through with different bills How can you consider ways of preparing witnesses as well as preparing yourselves for what you want to listen for And what questions you might want to ask to dig deeper Again, you I could imagine a committee Having a conversation that touches on these questions in advance like at the very beginning of the day In advance of several testimonies or or for just a minute or so in advance of one testimony To sort of focus everyone I think a lot of committees already do this and I definitely heard at the workshop that there are some Committee members that are interested in seeing more of that type of structure take place And then individual committee member thinking so I know that this is a little bit simplistic But I have found it very helpful to use this kind of a mechanism for myself and my own work Reminding myself of simple questions I can ask that will keep me focused on what I'm really trying to understand And it's certainly useful with a whole group of people to have this type of thing in front of you if you can't follow A conversation that's happening, but you know, you may have to vote on a bill at a certain point in time It may be useful to reference one or another of these questions to Pull yourself back in So very simple the government accountability committee is interested in making sure that not only is the executive branch Focusing on how to improve mechanisms for accountability, but also that there is partnership between the executive branch and the legislative branch In thinking through how to use data and testimony Not just testimony, but inquiry to to make responsible policy I would recommend just as a result of the legislators that attended the workshop and their enthusiasm for it Keeping a couple of copies of the legislative intent guide around around the committee room or practicing Just having it next to you while you go through a day and see if you find it if you find it useful And I'm sure the representative cornhizer will talk a little bit more about how she sees that playing out Since you're from the agency of human services, can you give me An example of how your agency has used GAC to improve its performance or service The government accountability committee, yes Or the GAC principles, sure. Yes. So the agency of human services has over several decades been working to advance use of An accountability system or practices in an accountability system that are oriented to outcomes How do we know if the work we're doing is improving the lives of our monitors and how do we know That the work we're providing is quality work. And so over the year I've been at the agency for about six years and um, I was just saying this morning that I encounter Everyone I encounter and new employees is always the most exciting Who already know about results based accountability because of the work that we have done to sort of Make that language accessible and the tools accessible and want to understand how to ensure that they in their roles as grant managers, for instance Are implementing those tools Appropriately, so there's a cultural component that I think is is significant to name But also there's been a proliferation of use of data across the organization. So On the agency of human services website You can find performance dashboards similar to similar to the one that Betsy Ann showed for each department And also across department essentially data stories about how well our programs and services are doing fiber monitors and by standards of quality So I think that's another example just seen more data about program performance out in the world And then we've also recommitted ourselves to publishing community profiles, which were first started under Secretary con hogan's tenure at the agency of human services and that we've sort of revived in the last two years Which are population Indicator data. So about all of our monitors not about one program That are available by county hospital service area And agency of human services district So those are also available on our website as a means of trying to facilitate and enable Community organizations honestly across sector, but certainly outside of just one organization to do strategic problem solving Turning the curve as you will for outcomes for program honors So as a result of this data has your agency ever Decided to shift funds from one program that isn't doing as well To a program that is or perhaps even discontinue A program that has found to not be effective That's a great question. I mean, I think it gets right to the heart of it's great to have data But what are the mechanisms in place to use it? Certainly and I think you'll see Hopefully you will see in the testimonies from our Leadership of the agency of human services that there is always data that comes associated with decisions around the budget I can't give you any specific examples off the top of my head about programs that may have been cut or reshaped By data that's on a dashboard or you know, draw that thread specifically for you But I do know that all the conversations that we're having that are significant around reform reforming programs or consolidating contracts or grants are all data informed Yeah, but I mean, I will say and I know I presented to this committee about this in the last session That that's one of my biggest areas of interest is how do we ensure not only that the information is there For you to grab when you want it, but that it is That it's sort of baked into every process that we are engaged in at a governance level Yes, thank you Are there other states that have taken on this process? And if so, what have been their legislative outcomes in terms of impact? Right, um, that is a great question for um representative brumstead. I know off the top of my head that Utah and I want to say Connecticut Um, both implemented use of performance notes. So similar to that um second part of legislative intent guide around different types of data That traveled around with each bill through the state house Along with I think what we would consider like a fiscal note here um And they Utah may have even implemented some more Sort of stringent requirements around introducing legislation related to performance Measurement, but I don't know off the top of my head And I know that the state of Connecticut has done a lot of work To support legislative committees to use dashboards like the one that's a n showed for specific areas of interest. So, Connecticut has A dashboard that I think is called something like protecting Connecticut's children or something like that Where they've got about five indicators that are specific to child welfare that the committee would look at every single year That's a way to start the session Thank you Let's chew on this committee We'll uh, we'll have some time with Emily Farniser probably next week sometime To Hopefully help us Figure out ways that we can use this going forward And I do appreciate the the worksheets that that have been developed and I think I would like to See if we can get some copies of those made I don't typically do paper copies of things, but In that case it's helpful to have them from the center when you When you're contemplating something And I wonder how many birthday parties you're going to need to go to to see the impact of your balloon bill That's a great data out there That's all That gives me jurisdiction It's about the children it's about it's for the children All Thank you Let's see okay, so in uh in keeping with our efforts to take a broad saunter through many different Areas of jurisdiction of our committee We need to take a look at vital records And so Tucker has prepared a presentation for us And in the Within the vital records policy area There's there are a couple of components of a housekeeping bill that the department of health has Has asked us to work on and so I'm not sure if david wants to speak specifically to the cleanup bill Or if you want to just talk generally With us at this point about vital records I would recommend not getting too deep into the the cleanup bill at this point because We are not going to take that up in earnest until Until we have s54 headed to the floor So whatever you tell us we may not remember in three weeks when we come back to this Thank you, I appreciate that You have flexibility good deal For those laws we need to go that altitude is from zero to We'd like to see you brush the tree tops Actually, no just kidding. That's quite how much here isn't that for you? So uh Tucker Or how many So Tucker I have a I have a request for you before we get started on your testimony It's I we're period day one And I know that there are many things that we need to To kind of get back to I'm noticing that the iPad that is at the end of the table likes to go to sleep And I'm wondering if you could change the settings so that it doesn't go to sleep Well Operators going to sleep Good afternoon, madam chair Clearly it is the first day of session We have all forgotten that I am the least person in the world at a given moment Including right now, but Lessons from the guru Are you gonna give your testimony off of the The iPad or off of your laptop? I will use my laptop because of some debacles from last session Mostly coming from the gentleman to my right. I decided that I would pair everything on my laptop this year when I could So that I didn't have to Yeah, didn't have to have my iPad skills compared to Betsy That's what I heard many times and I could not find the wall didn't know how to throw it was all lost on me You need a what do you want? Thank you Jim for your speedy response to Did you do it? It's now 15 minutes So if the presenter doesn't touch the screen At some point in 15 minutes That's perfect. And if they don't touch it during that period it deserves to shut down Because we're all asleep All right, good afternoon Today we'll do a little walk through The vital records history of ramon. It'll cover Over 200 years. We'll do it probably in less than 15 minutes because most of the changes have come within the last Three years out of those 200 plus And along the way we'll get to have lots of historical fun We'll talk about amending session law that has not become effective yet And thankfully Dave is here so that I won't have to wade through the morass of administrative rules But we will highlight the changes that have come in the last year With regard to the identification required to get copies of birth and death certificates Before we begin on your committee information page Andrea has posted A volume of documents that I sent along. It covers everything that has happened since 2016 Acts of the legislature Rules from the department some guidance from the department that has been posted on their website that I found particularly informative on this subject And the document that I put together here some bullet points as a primer You're not going through all these are you? I'm going to read every word on every page It would be helpful if you could do an appropriate pause in between each word So just to cover some general background about the history of vital records in vermont For the most part vital records were recorded at the local level by town clerks. This was the case Since the founding of vermont since it entered its statehood and stopped being a republic Um And it continues to this day with what are known as uh issuing agents under the current vital records system um In 1856 we had the first vital records law State vital records law will say and that established a state registry of births deaths and marriages Uh, the secretary of state was charged with the duty to bind an index annual lists that were delivered by the town clerks To the state system and just for fun I went into our 1862 volume of statutes because I knew that you would want to take a look at this and um It's a bit small And uh, one of the things that you'll note if you Pull this up from the webpage is that Back in the day. Yes, the town clerks played a vital role in recording vital records But so did the school district clerks and clergymen and they even went out of their way to say that yes friends or quakers can also Solomize marriages and record certain documents Um, and there are some interesting anachronistic well not anachronistic timely, but antiquated details in there such as information that had to be recorded your Husband's job when you got married or your father's job when you were born Uh, in latino to the state board of health was charged with the duty to collect the annual list Prepare statistical tables regarding vital events and deliver the list to the secretary of state for preservation 78 years later. We have the next significant step Which was the department of health was charged with the responsibilities previously assigned to the secretary of state and that was the point Some of you here in the committee were at the general assembly was at in 2016 where you had multiple local agents Local officials and multiple state entities that were all involved in the state's Vital records system 2016 the general assembly established the vital records study committee to look into the state system and propose To how vital records are recorded preserved and issued The study committee was composed of members representing the department of health The state archivist the probate division and municipal clerks And again, those are all of the parties that were involved in these various vital events records At the end of their study the committee recommended Eliminating this patchwork system of vital records collection and preservation Consolidating the duty to collect this information under a single point of administration Establishing a single civil registration system Authorizing Whoever was the single point of administration to delegate certain vital event recording authority to local officials in keeping with vermont's history and of course practice that is practical And to determine by role the duties of those officials To limit the individuals to whom a vital record may be issued Which was a huge point for the study committee at that time And to have modest increases in fees for the issuance of certified vital records That led to act 46 in 2017 And this is the substantive change that has led to the rules from the department Act 46 established uniform definitions for vermont's vital records system Including what constitutes a vital event certificate and a vital record It established the statewide registration system And charged the state registrar vital records with the duty to operate that system The system was also designated as the sole repository of data from birth and death certificates honor after january 1st 19 It charged the state registrar with the duty to register all birth and death certificates Of course, this was previously with the town clerks It provided that only issuing agents which are either authorized representatives of the state registrar town clerks Are authorized to issue certified non-certified copies of birth and death certificates It limited the inspection of vital records and the issuance of birth and death certificates So that only certain persons are eligible to receive certified copies It required all requests for certified copies of birth and death certificates to be made upon application And submission of a form of identification established by a rule Further it directed the state registrar to administer a vital records alert system to track fraud or legal activities Transferred certain duties from the probate division to the state registrar for the amendment of birth and death certificates The issuance of new birth certificates and the issuance of delayed birth certificates Um Within This act we also had some delegation to the state registrar to adopt rules First The act required the state registrar to prescribe the content and form of applications for birth and death certificates And that includes the number of acceptable characters on a birth certificate. I know that's a detail you're very concerned about Uh manner in which vital records shall be submitted to the registrar Physical requirements and security standards for the storage of vital event certificates And this piece uh was more important than I appreciated until I heard Some testimony last year in senate gub opt about just how valuable and expensive the certified paper That these certificates are printed on is And when I heard that I thought that maybe they should be delivered exclusively in armored vehicles Um The manner in which the department of public safety shall furnish lists of missing and kidnapped children And the procedures for governing governing the public's inspection of birth and death certificates Further the act expressly directed the state registrar to adopt rules governing the acceptable content of a birth certificate The acceptable forms of identification required in connection with applications for certified copies of birth and death certificates Finally the process for denying a certified copy of a birth or death certificate based on the alert system That brought us into 2018 in the special session And those of you who are here remember that right as the session was ending and it was edging towards the effective date of that 2018 act H16 which eventually became act number 11 Vital records were added in to delay the implementation of this system by a year And that brings us to 2019 In 2018 The department issued final rules covering all of these mandated Criteria that we just went over Uh, I did provide that initial 2018 final rule As one of the documents is posted to the website um This past july the department Adopted an emergency rule dave. Yes an emergency rule to address some issues around the forms of identification That would be accepted for individuals recently released from a correctional facility And then most recently a final rule Uh addressed that and individuals who are in the continuum of homelessness Care The reason being There was this cycle Where if you did not have A vital record Such as a birth certificate. You couldn't necessarily get other forms of identification But if you didn't have those forms of identification, you couldn't get The vital record you needed to demonstrate your identity So for individuals recently released from a correctional facility and some homeless individuals This was quite the conundrum And the rules addressed that And uh, I can pull up See which one of these It is I believe this is the last one dave You can yell at me if it's not Um, it's not the final form because I was adopted adopted. Okay This is just the one that was next to the copy or so I snatched it. Um You did some of my copy right Yeah Um, so that is The state of the state with regard to vital records um I have nothing further from our end to add When the rules came into el car as representative gardener knows legislative council's role is to uh, if it's within one of our subject areas to advise el car If for some reason the rule Appears to be outside of the delegated authority. I don't believe that that was an issue here Good afternoon. My name is david englander. I'm the senior policy and legal advisor to the commissioner of health I'm delighted to be before you so madam chair. Where would you like me? What what altitude? What would be most helpful to the committee? 28,500 feet Okay I think the biggest from 28 five I think probably the the most important thing to know was one of the many drivers of Of act 46 was that vermont was one of three states to be a so-called open record state We just talked to describe that anybody could get a certified copy for birth or death certificate Which lent itself to significant possibilities for fraud There was no way for the department of health to for instance deny if if some person from pick your Uh, kleptocracy who had failed state, you know asked for 15 copies of my birth certificate They could get it and there was no way for unless it was actually dish or fraud. There was no way for us to actually deny that Yes Can we have all 50 That's I think I think if we want to talk about I mean I think if I think maybe if we want to talk about the rule more whatever the committee desires, I don't have anything Okay, I'll stand by Let's talk about the rule How is the rule out going is the other question because I'm hearing concerns from Folks who from colleagues who heard from their town clerks about Um, about how the rule out is going. Sure. So, um I'm gonna go a little below 28 five that so so we are now So so so one of the things that that that um If you're not intimately familiar with with this that the biggest change Um on operational level was that Birth certificates you for instance used to go Paper copies would go from the hospital to the town and to the department of health Death certificates would go from the funeral director to the town and to the department of health And what this established was a statewide digital system whereby all information is added is added via computer So the hospital understand the information It is there it is then available at the department of health level instantly It's available at the town at the town clerk level instantly And they could be and certified or non-certified copies can be printed out at both at any of those locations any any any clerk That has opt in they may opt out if they choose But any any issuing agent so the idea being that you have one You have one central database and you don't have many different You don't have different copies of different certificates because we were in all paper system for a very long time for it since Since the 19th century it was into the actually since the probably since the 16th century So It's worth noting that um this ended up being significantly more complicated than we I think that anybody had imagined changing this this massive system Which is why we did need a little bit more time to get the the the computer system online And also to establish the rules We have been in constant communication I was with with the clerks and clerk associations individual clerks email us questions. They call and they ask I would say To be to be frank that the given the complexity and how many towns or clerk there I would say the role that has gone extremely smoothly. We just not to say it's been perfect There are mistakes within the system. There are many that the What we call the legacy records, which is before 1908 there are many errors in the documents themselves and there's also errors that occur between The having the document in front of them. We just handwritten and the and the inputs into Into the system that is actually largely done by ancestry.com and then when So the Department of Health folks are not sitting with documents and transferring them We made a deal with ancestry.com some years ago that they would give us that they would give remodlers acts as answers.com And they would and they would do that uploading when we find errors. We correct the errors when the clerks contact us We correct those errors But it's going to take it's going to take some time to make sure that that all the records are true and accurate I think that what we What we endeavor to do is when when clerks and others contact us is to be is to be meaningfully responsive to their to their concerns And and work to do better My understand I'm happy to check on that my understanding the answer is yes But but the caveat that it is not it is not perfect that the legacy records are still we're still working through that um There was one and there was a few there were a few unintended consequences of the of act 46 One one issue being that we'll talk one three weeks so you can forget about this immediately Is that there were because anybody could get certified copies? It was easy for instance for agencies of the state to get certified copies within the within the course of their bona fide duties So if diva needed Copies or a dcf did copies for for you know for for a minor they didn't have they they could just go and get it But now they're restricted from doing so so that's so now That has created complexities so we'd like to unwind some of those complexities and return things to the status quo So I just want to understand legacy records those go like 1908 and earlier or is Like if I were searching for Represented of the Claire's verse certificate it may not be there if it's part of the legacy So it would be so it would be there It would be it would be so it would be both in the in the in the town Where the representative was born And there would be a there would be a paper copy and then it would be also be on the it would be on the system It's just that the that they might not be accurate It's possible that it won't be accurate because of just because of human error So describe to me the pace at which the health department is Able to answer the concerns that you're hearing from different municipalities Uh, it depends on the nature of the of the concern So I would say that we we always Aim to respond meaningfully within a matter within a matter of days And but sometimes there's a limited amount of Of authority the department has so for instance if somebody says I'm I'm finding I'm finding a lot of errors We would say alert us those errors and will and will help you correct them But there's nothing that we can do that sort of systematic that systematic because it's because it's all done by hand And somebody has to be looking at the record to see that my middle name is Curtis and not Michael You know there's no way for a department of health person to be able to look and see that that's the case You would have to have that knowledge So With respect to legacy records, which is around my ancestry dot com What would be the process for correcting a record of a clerk, you know says, okay, you know My name my middle name is not Curtis. It's Michael So you contact the department of health and then then they would make that correct. Yes I mean there was some kind of documentation would be required. You couldn't just call and say actually But the department can make those records in the system And then you inform the clerk when the record is corrected Yes Because usually it's it's a one-on-one call somebody's calling and saying This is a problem and that we would say we can correct this or we can't correct this and that that way it should be going Because of our agreement with ancestry dot com Is it true that from monitors receive some kind of special Yes For monitors have access to the answer. They're just not complete What you I actually I once paid and I actually got that the full thing So we but for monitors get more than than persons who where states have not gotten They have more access to records You talked about problems I know of my sister who came and saw me Came in what was this summer and went but she had a homeless person She had to find and she needed just what you were talking about. She needed vital records and she just couldn't get them Yes Is that been solved yet? Yeah. So that's so in the rulemaking as tucker briefly described That has been so the the two main issues that we That we we address in the most recent rulemaking and this is this I mean this was This is effective as of january one And that and that allows the department of health to Because the law requires that we specify and by rule acceptable identification And again tucker will describe that there's a catch there's a catch 22 Anyway, so if I went and told her That it's okay That this this has been corrected. She could go solve that problem So I would say so if a person is it is it is on the is on the continuum of homelessness But they have but they have access to some kind of of assistance That if there's a um, there are any kind of organization and it's actually let's see we can I can rather than guessing at the um A homeless service provider means a government or non-profit agency receiving federal state or musical funding to provide service to a homeless To a homeless person or that is otherwise sounded to provide these services by local homeless continuum of care organization That organization can certify by affidavit that that this that this is this person's name and that is sufficient For the purpose of the department of health to issue a certificate A certified board certificate That started january 1st january 1 And the same thing is true now with people who are being who are leaving A d.o.c. custody Because as it turns out of vermont d.o.c. as well there's well as federal and other state Head of tenturies have issued identification. No businesses apparently accept them So that isn't a lot of use so We adopt a system whereby If if the d.o.c. Makes a representation they send us about a two-page Document that says this is david englander. This is named as where he was born That that's sufficient to issue that person Or that's and just amplify a brief point that the tucker made which is that which is the value of the paper The paper cost the department of health would say to vermont about a dollar a piece But it's but it sells for tens of thousands of dollars in the black market because you can create A false record whereby you can get you can take somebody's identity or you can take their benefits So that is all that um, so that's actually both that's also in the rule is the security necessary to safeguard That paper because there are places where people just have been leaving the paper, you know in the printer We want to make sure that that is that is not the case But I remember when we took testimony there was some system that Each of these pieces of paper is numbered, right? Yes And so they have to be using them in numerical order In recording that yes for our purposes for the department of health and other issuing we have to issue them in order or we have to But somebody theoretically could still take take it. We might note its loss But there wouldn't be a way to actually track to track that down if somebody just takes it to another state and is using it There's no way to wait and it has a serial number on it. What can you track from where it was lost? You could track from where it was lost, but if it's but if it's stolen, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah Burn money in that in canvas Track errors in records How do we track errors? I don't know that we track errors. Do you mean like how like how many errors? I don't think that we do track errors. I think when we find errors, we correct them I don't know if there's anybody out there saying We've had this many errors. I can certainly check Are you finding Patterns in terms of where these errors came from? No I mean other than other than human error Random human error Inattention when looking at one set of records. Yes Um, there are I can't it's a there's a translation term But there's something that translators mistake they do they still will skip a line They'll be translating this line and they'll skip the next line and there's there's things like that people do they sometimes skip words? so it's not it's I'm making this judgment, but it looks always like harmless error somebody was trying and they failed for whatever reason I'm gonna go below 28,000 foot level here just So when we talk about the errors, so let's say that you know, I got Mr. Harrison's first certificate back in 1909 um somebody's actually Key entering the data in off of that into the system as opposed to say scanning it Yes, it can't be scanned because it's because it was it's written in cursive by hand by person 110 years ago So why can't it be scanned? I think I think there's there's that's well I mean, I'm Way beyond my but I would presume that there are right that there may be a resuscitated You know scanner technology at this point. My understanding is that that's all Or it may be that they that I should say I don't know It may be that there's a there's a top line where where it scans what it can that spits out Um, so it's like I actually have that's a great question. I'm happy to check on it and How much of let's so let's say that I'm a town clerk. It's been around a while. So I get extensive records Do I have the option of of Ancestry.com doing most of that work for me or can I do it myself? Into the system you could you could make you could make corrections But I don't think but I don't think there's any town clerks that are hand in power hand in putting using Ancestry.com to do this Seems to me to be a big benefit to the state, but perhaps an even bigger benefit than ancestry.com Are they Putting this data Into their system of ancestors and all that yes The idea that we're usually them or are they paying us? Um, uh, I have looked at the contract in a long time. I think that there I think that there's no money changing hands I think there's an I think it was an mo u. It was it was before my time But I can I can certainly look I'm not we were not we are not paying ancestry back I'm not opposed to them right increasing their ability to provide this kind of information On ancestry in general to to the public if they find a john know that was born here On a certain date and somebody else that he'd been looking for that john know for years and years and years Here he is. He's been found. That's great But quick pro quo Yeah, there's a quick pro quo there in common parlance Yeah Hey overview of my records Okay, we will uh, we will have you and or shayla back In a few weeks great And I did make an offer madam chair and I would have you happy to come back and I can do you I do a because I do so many rules. I have a rule making run a 101 with plate spinning and And uh, unicycles might be happy to provide that to the community Listen to the Description of how a rule is made. Yes. Yes. Great. Thank you. Thank you