 Welcome everyone to this launch event of our inside paper, of our third inside paper on research led education in the digital age. My name is Jan Pomofsky, I'm the Secretary General of the Guild of European Research Intensive Universities and I'm very pleased to be joined by a hugely distinguished panel to talk about some key issues about how we imagine, how we can reimagine education in really exciting ways leading into the next decade or so. When the Guild was created, we had at our general assembly almost five years ago, our presidents who insisted that the Guild could never be just about research but that education was as central to research to universities as the research that informed this education. And so it was no surprise that when our presence reflected individually and together on where Europe's universities should move over the next 10 years, what vision we might articulate for European universities and for Europe's universities by 2030, they all had a sense that the most fundamental transformations in universities will happen in the sphere of education. So, and this was, we had these conversations before the pandemic even started. So the question of how education would change at what speed it will change, and at what costs I mean all these questions are of fundamental importance, and this concerns led to why discussions in the Guild about research led education in the digital age and these discussions were led by Professor Joan Guri who joins me now and I'm very pleased that we can kick off this event with her and her paper. But this paper was supported by a writing team consisting of Auna Falk from the University of Tartu, Vice Presidents there, Vice President Barrett Eicher from our university, and Vice President Karen Amos from the University of Tübingen, but there's also a very large numbers of working groups and our General Assembly and our Vice Presidents who were involved in the conversation. But because this paper is very much a reflection of our own thoughts and our own ideas, it was extremely important to us in this launch event to extend the discussion beyond our network as far as possible. We really wanted to have to invite a panel that was largely outside our network and we're delighted that we have been joined by such a fantastic and distinguished panel. We would really like to hear from the audience we've already heard some questions from you at the point of registration. And I would please, if you have questions, use the Q&A options and vote on the questions that you'd like to see answered. Note that the materials from this webinar and the recording itself will also be available after this event at our website. And so now, without further ado, I would like to give the word to the lead author, Joe Anguri, to really discuss some of our key findings on research-led education in the digital age. Joe, the floor is yours. And first, I would like to start by thanking the writing team from my end too. The paper is the product of good ongoing collaboration between us and together we have produced what we hope is the start and an opportunity for dialogue and debate. So the paper responds to the current emphasis on education by international and national policymakers and the strong discourse of the need for change that is everywhere around us and problematizes what change could and should look like for higher education in the present moment. The paper's aim is to propose a framework and sustained intervention on research-led education in the digital age and lead a critical discussion in the sector and within our institutions and offer some possible solutions in line with the current policy context and particularly the 25 European education area and the digital education action. It summarizes its key messages in six areas, which I will share at the end of my short contribution. So what was our starting point? First, in order to move forward, we need the legacy of the past and an understanding of the current landscape in Europe, this directs to the experience we have with Erasmus Plus and the Bologna process, which was provided as a strong foundation to build a new vision and strategy for the sector. Bologna has provided the aspiration, language frame for European education, priorities towards comparability of degrees on European system of credits, cooperation and quality assurance, as well as invaluable learnings from the challenges we met and we meet on the way in the implementation process. And this is really invaluable because in order to move further, we know that we want to scale up pedagogical processes that will allow us to achieve the ideals of openness, flexibility, individual choice, equality and inclusion in higher education. The Academy is currently encouraged to think outside the box. This needs to be facilitated if we are restricted to current and past processes and tools, we know that will be hampered by the constraints we have experienced already. We therefore need new systems that provide agility and our build on trust to achieve the vision for the European University of the future. So in our paper we started mapping some of the core issues we believe we need to address in rethinking our systems and tools, and more broadly the principles that underpin our pedagogical offering. The issues or clusters of issues that you will see on this slide have been seen as tensions or dichotomies and the core aspiration of the paper is to go beyond binaries and dichotomies. There isn't no doubt cancel one another, but instead of looking them as either or it is useful to use them as learnings of the past and the springboard for where we want to go. Particularly looking into the fine equilibrium that needs to be achieved for standardization to facilitate and not spy for innovation, or the challenges in balancing the vision of a transnational delivery of education sharing curricula infrastructure, and enabling each other in order to transcend geographical linguistic and disciplinary boundaries with the priorities of national legal and regulatory system takes us at the heart of issues we experienced under Bologna and from where we can learn a lot for the policies and tools we need in order to go beyond what we currently have. The European University initiative is a potential new tool towards this direction and experiment which seems to be producing good results and which is an opportunity to articulate the value added of transnational collaboration. This experiment will need to be properly supported to move from pilot implementation or from experiment mainstream. The proposals are also necessary for universities to meet the needs of students and regional and national context. The demographic profile of our students is changing the model the traditional students who can spend three to five years and full time education independent means can no longer be considered or we no longer be considered the norm. Universities are prompted by policymakers to engage with industry and the industry for zero discourse to diversify our pedagogic offering. This involves establishing alternative credit pathways alongside traditional degrees, balancing disciplinary expertise and subject knowledge with opportunity for interdisciplinary embedding active learning across curricula engaging more fully with lifelong learning. The current discussions on the micro credentials agenda is a case in point and work that we need to continue a lot needs to be achieved fast. So, up to here, we could have had this conversation in early 2019. In fact, we did have this conversation in early 2019 the European University initiative was launched then created a different model to enable European universities to come together collaborate. There were goals and aspirations for instance the commitment to 50% mobility student mobility by 2025 and then covered happens. And we all became digitally enabled moved online overnight and this came with various utopian and dystopian scenario, neither of which is a good advisor for the future. The 19 disruption brought a comprehensive need for flexibility in European higher education students stuff all of us became mobile and the mobile simultaneously. We had to redefine on an offline operating the digital space not by choice. In prominent modalities are face to face teaching model has changed and is morphing possibly irreversibly to a hybrid with blended learning becoming the main models of Randy. So we've experienced emergence interventions. However, emergence interventions are exactly that short term responding to an immediate pressure, and they should be distinguished for long term learning designs. So to capitalize on the experience we have in the sector with virtual learning environments and and generally with the technology enhanced delivery of our provision. We have, we have in the sector then and use the current disruption to provide a more dynamic learning environment as we should, then we need to revisit our vision for higher education and the principles that will guide the shift from where we are to where we want to be. First of the future technologies yet again and not another binary it's not another or it is embedded from infrastructure to wearable technology to the delivery of our pedagogical offering. But this does not mean on online and it does not mean that online is the panacea. If anything we experienced the importance of the social aspect of learning in the past 14 months, the impact of isolation on well being and we have all missed being with our students and colleagues in learning together in face to face learning environments in the classroom. Future proof learning designs require a reconceptualization of learning experiences available to our students, going beyond linearities of the past and towards an education model which blends face to face and digital and empowers the students to apply their learning to global problems, including in solid disciplinary education alongside experiencing in the disability future proof learning designs are active learning designs. This is particularly important for the role of research intensive institutions, which educates the citizens of the future and meet the need of our future societies as well as the current ones. We also have deep implications for pedagogic formats available to the students core academic practices and models for cross institutional and cross national collaboration. This level of change, however, cannot be delivered without appropriate support. We can move to the next slide please support in the form of policy tools and a vision for the research led education of the future, but also support in the form of resource and recognition of the time and effort that is required. The resource often remains the elephant in the room when pedagogic innovation is on the table. Education change, I'm sure you've all experienced we've all observed that often reliance on agency contribution and generosity from different parts of our universities, academic staff, administrative and professional services and students who participate in large projects on top of regular workloads. Treatment and buying a very important, but it's not sustainable and is not comparable to the scale of the ambition of the current policy agendas and is not comparable to the need and opportunity for change. Hence a core issue that we need to address and it is a red thread is the need and opportunity for deep qualitative change. At the same time balancing an institutional level costs associated with digitalization COVID-19 is a case in point we also how quickly we can go online with the tools we have, but the time and investment that is required in redesigning and really readjusting our pedagogic offering. And at the same time balancing decreasing budgets per student and staff under a lot of pressure to cover the daily needs of the profession and hence with no capacity for extra work or for strategic redesign of our current offering. This requires top level support for higher education and for sustaining pedagogic innovation and an open discussion on funding models that are necessary and possible. So our vision is for universities to capitalize on the current disruption to retain all the things we do well and change practices that we can do better or to not serve or will soon not serve the needs of our students and the dynamic societies around us. Universities have solid expertise to build on experience we have in the sector and lead the deep change that is required and possible. Research intensive universities, however, and the higher education is not the soul are not the soul universities are not the sole providers of programs and courses, nor should they be. There has been a lot of discussion on what the future of learning and the future university could and should like a look like from different providers with different agendas. This is another binary we challenge in our paper universities we don't see universities in competition with attack or with commercial providers why would we be. We have different roles and orientation. We need, however, and deep and open dialogue on the best ways to work together in a symbiotic relationship and contribute to the wider ecosystem. So to conclude, we have organized our contribution in six key areas which include the questions we feel we need to raise and the positions we need to debate. We have summarized those in the video but we are going to share now. In March 2020, Europe's universities went 100% digital. Overnight, university education was fundamentally and irreversibly disrupted. So how do we reimagine higher education beyond the pandemic? How can we develop a vision for higher education that strengthens the connection between research and education, developing new and appropriate tools to expand the reach, formats and impact of our research led pedagogic offering. In the future change will come in six areas. One, the future is not and must not be all digital. The disruption has highlighted the social importance of learning, the impact of isolation on wellbeing, the depth of the digital divide and the need for flexibility. We need to think creatively on the balance of blended models. Technology will be embedded in the university of the future, from infrastructure to digitally enhanced lecture theaters to wearable technology. We need to develop new ways however to enhance what remains the mainstay of most universities, the social learning experience. Two, research led universities should lend their distinctive strengths to lifelong learning. Digitalization is among the most powerful forces of societal and economic transformation, requiring more and more people to learn new skills throughout their adult lives. Universities need to strengthen their engagement with lifelong learning and the emphasis on flexible designs. Developing micro-credentials that are recognized across the center and beyond could be an important start. But universities must not compromise on their core mission of educating for active citizenship and long term societal growth and wellbeing. Universities must be enabled to respond to this challenge according to their own strengths, notwithstanding the need for harmonization. Three, pedagogic innovation must be accelerated to educate for continuous change and disruption. The sense of urgency to be able to cope with and lead a changing world demands education that encourages students to be curious, active learners. Students need to be open-minded, able to address complex problems. Digital tools, new and established pedagogies are all needed to enable students to explore and apply their learning. However, diversity of needs must be a core part of the learning designs of the future. Universities have the experience and expertise to pave the way if policy, funders and regulators enable them to do so. Four, we must move beyond red tape to develop enabling and flexible regulatory frameworks. Current quality assurance models cause barriers to international collaboration despite the best intentions of the Bologna process. To be sure, collaboration cannot do without standardization processes which need to provide reassurance. The key challenge for the future, however, lies in how this need for standardization can avoid bureaucratic procedures that are time consuming and deeply risk averse. We need quality assurance models that build on trust and enable. Five, we must articulate the added value of international collaboration. We're rediscovering the value of collaboration at the regional, national, European and global levels. Yet rarely is the value proposition explicitly articulated. Collaboration between different types of institutions, subjects and at geographical levels can provide new and unique opportunities for students. But these need to be spelled out to determine what type of collaboration adds value in which circumstance. Six, we must invest in the sustainability of pedagogic innovation. Educational vision and change cannot come without investment. The pandemic put enormous pressure on staff and students and has shown that redesign is both possible and resource intensive. We need a viable and pragmatic model for better recognizing the time and effort spent on education innovation. Universities have always changed with society. What's new is the speed of the digital transformation accelerated through the pandemic and the complexity of global problems. They require universities to strengthen research-led education and their students' global skills and mindsets. What does change look like for your institution? How can universities build on their strengths to embrace transformation in new ways? Join us and be part of the conversation. So join us to facilitate the conversation. Today is just the beginning of what we hope is a journey. We have organized a seminar series which will enable us to zoom in on these core issues. More details will be announced formally and properly soon. This is just a little sneak preview for us today. The first seminar is already taking place on the 29th of June on transnational collaboration and lifelong learning. And we're going to discuss the microcredential agenda. There is a fascinating lineup of contributors. We will announce the details and open registration in the coming week. So keep an eye out. And this is followed by a second event on the 23rd of September of the core and very important question on building standards that help and not hinder. More information will be announced on time dates of the other events, but you already see how much is already on the table. So join us to address change in those six areas to identify a sustainable approach to resourcing pedagogy innovation and use our collective power to bring the change we want to see our students deserve and our future societies need. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. So that's fantastic. That's a fantastic introduction. And with this, I want to move to the first panel. Because gone are the days when really think of the use added value in the realm of education as being really essentially and primary and only really about mobility. I mean that's still important. But the European Union is no longer simply just about establishing the single market. It's very clear that with the European education area the Commission has really signal that how we prepare young citizens to benefit from the single market. To enable individuals and students to engage in Europeans in Europe's digital green transformations. These are critical policy concerns at the highest level. And in return the Commission has created a new European space for educational debate and of course our initiative seeks to reinforce this. So it really is appropriate at the start of this series of conversations to begin our discussion at the European level. So we start our first panel with Vanessa DBS on some time head of unit for higher education at DJ air. And Michael Gable, a director for higher education policy at the European University Association, the UAE. Like, like each of you maybe to start with some opening reflections before we get into a discussion but I also want to encourage the audience as you hear the contributions to share your reflections with us and through the Q&A session which will do our best to answer them in the discussion. Vanessa, beginning with you the floor is yours. Yes, thank you very much. Thank you very much to you and good morning, everyone. First, I would like to really congratulate you for this very rich, but also very interesting, excellent reports that can inspire a lot of rich discussions. I'm sure and as you said, it comes at a very timely moment, as we are indeed, as you said, in the co-creation process of creating co-developing what we have called provisionally a European strategy for university. So as you said, we are looking at the next 10 years and we are in the middle of this European wide consultation process we are aiming at presenting such a strategy early 2022. I would like to share with you some initial ideas gathered through the co-creation process so far and you will see that it's very much linked with what you've put in the report. There is first an overwhelming agreement on the value of such a European wide strategy at this moment. This was confirmed by the ministers responsible for high education two weeks ago when they met in the county and they had a rich debate around such a transformation agenda. And it builds on many of the topics that you have analyzed in this report. The events of the past 15 months have shown us that we are at a transformative moment in high education as you have rightly reported. And our objective with such a strategy and council conditions that will support this strategy is to really support and empower high education institutions in this transformative moment. Now of course the issue is what are the actions that we can develop together, the right actions that will support you all of you in this transformative moment. Because high education can and must play a leading role in this post COVID recovery of Europe in making society greener fairer and more digital. And in equipping people with the competencies that are fast changing society needs and when I say people it includes not only students but also life-wide learners and the European workforce in increasing need to have skill and reskill with the support of education training institutions. And that's your right in the in the report university should be should lend to to to take your own words should lend their distinctive strengths to lifelong learning. And what we see that a lot of high education institutions, but also private providers are developing short learning courses leading to my credentials with the objective to provide easier and complimentary that's very important. It's a compliment to what you said before is the core part and the core mission of your high education institutions, but it can be a nice compliment to make your institutions more accessible to a wider range of of learners. But what we see at the moment is that there are some uncertainties around what kind of added value we can have this this short learning courses leading to my credentials, simply because there is currently a lack of European standards. And this is where we think maybe Europe can add value by defining such European standards to help with with with the trust and the recognition that validation and their checkups so there is an ongoing public consultation that is open to the to the 13th of July so I would like to invite all of you to contribute to this public consultations which really, which would really feed into the proposal for cancer organization that we aim at proposing by the end of this year. Now second very important topic that I would like to highlight it's so rich that I will not be able to cover everything but I'll just try to to point out to some of them. The other very important to one is that we need high education institutions to be actors of change at this time point that we are facing today we are entering a new digital decade. And we want as well universities to be part of the solution for the Green Deal and the new industry strategy but when it comes to the digital decade, you rightly point out that there is still some way to go to reach the post digital university. And my question to you today is, what is the you not doing that you think it could do or should do. There is much potential in hybrid models of teaching and learning in finding the right balance between physical and distance models and as you say the future was not to be all digital. But how can we find that that's right balance and what would be useful at you can never for you to to support you and and to to have a high education institutions have to support the knowledge the capacity to harness it. So the Council of Ministers called for high education transformation with a focus on inclusion, innovation, connectivity, I'm sure we'll speak about the importance of deeper cooperation. Digital and green reading is having mind international competition as well as well as the fundamental academic values and highly ethical principles and employment and probability so you see that the agent that they have given us is is quite broad. And there is a strong conviction that the strategy should speak to them 5000 or more high education institutions across Europe. And, and relate to this point, I would be very interested to hear your views on how we can use this diversity in our high education sector for all benefit and strength what considerations are necessary for the strategy to be beneficial for all types of high education institutions from east to west from north to south to educate conduct research innovate and serve our society across borders disciplines languages and cultures. I will stop here, but as you can see it's a it's a very rich discussions that we're going to have thanks a lot. So it's a really important discussion that doesn't like ambition which is appropriate to to the task. Thank you Vanessa. Michael. Yes, thank you. And also from my side thanks for this paper it's really inspiring and thought provoking and I agree with Vanessa it comes at a really good moment. I've seen the universities without walls vision 2030 that you a puts out and you will see. Many things there are quite similar. This is not that I accused you of plagiarism, which is to say that it's somehow happening everywhere and we're probably like the five blind men and the elephant, you know where we approach it from different perspectives to see different things there. So it's really important to talk about this and get our thoughts together. The point that you make here and that Joe illustrated so well in her presentation is why don't we change you know we seem to know some of the goals what we want to be actually you know the open international university but we're not getting there are not as quickly as we want to. And in the paper you point out three points one is the institutional conservatism and red tape. The second one is national level. And the third one is is probably also Bologna which is. Yeah, and I think I just take it up there if I look at the institutional level and just pick out this one point that you made about research based that education. I don't have to say here that I agree with you fully and you a has made that very clearly on several occasions that we really think it's important that already undergraduate students are exposed to. Well, if not research but curiosity based learning and interdisciplinarity, and you also make the point there's there's a bit of diversity lack of definition of what that actually means in the sector. And I would encourage you to explore that further. I think that could be very really helpful. We did this on recently we asked colleagues and we found out they all agreed on research that education, but they had very different ideas from summer schools student projects whatsoever on how that would be done. And from some systems you also heard a bit well is that not more for the master's level or even the PhD level. So I think that's probably a first point here that we get things that have been very intrinsic to the institutions to disciplines or to individual teachers that we exploit the ball that we make them more visible and get not an event but make the diversity and the different ways of understanding them while visible related to that asking myself what is hampering. What I thought what could come out more clearly is, I mean you make the point of parity of esteem and the importance of into incentivizing and recognizing pedagogic excellence against something we have expressed on several occasions. Another to add here is just the point of the academic careers. Yeah, because that really turned out on several surveys that we did as one of the big hurdles, you do not get recognized you do not get acknowledged for what you do in education. We don't tackle that. And if we don't make that really a part of the academic career, academically and professionally recognized, we will not go everywhere anywhere, we will just gather is a few enthusiasts and committed ones who believe in education and do not shun the overwork load and the disadvantages that this might create for their own careers and recognition, but we would not change the sector. So I think that's an important point. If I move on then to the national level, and I asked myself is that it is a problem I can see that but is it really as big as a problem as you describe it there. So agreed. There are language issues, funding issues there is accreditation, but if we look at when we asked for example institutions about the main obstacles that they face and digitally enhanced learning and teaching. Only from a very few countries we got the answer that national level regulation external QA and then and is the problem. So, and that's basically also confirmed from the autonomy scorecard but we can see that for example curriculum development is in most countries you can do that. As an institution, you have quite a bit of autonomy to define that, but I think you have a point there and that institutional and national systems are not necessarily conducive to what universities want to do and should do. And I really want to highlight here the case study of the Jagiellonian University, because that's not just highlighting how the medical things that the Jagiellonian and the other universities do. But it really makes the concrete point of the problems. And I think we need more of this. And across Europe and we have to look at the concrete problems that are there, and then think about ways on how to tackle them. I think the European universities initiatives generally in the university collaboration is a good way of course to identifying them highlighting them. My hunch would be that many of this what we thought is implemented across Europe like ECTS and and and this has probably been done on a subculture level under the radar of some of the national and also institutional regulation. So if you try to upscale it and implement it more radically, suddenly you have to explain that to your rector and to your Senate, and then the question come, and the obstacles. Point about Bologna. And I think it's, it would be misunderstanding to say Bologna is about an average strategy, at least for us, and I think also from the colleagues from ministries who have been in the Bologna process. It's really seen about creating a framework that is sufficiently flexible for higher education institutions and their members to act and make sure that education flourishes. You have the Bachelor of Masters, the QA, the QF and and, but it's more like, like a broad road and infrastructure to do that, than rather than prescribing what what you should do there. On the concrete issue of learning and teaching Bologna has been actually been rather agnostic. If you look what Bologna said about learning and teaching, it hailed learning outcomes, it hailed students and at learning and promoted them, but it has not really defined them. So it really left that for the sector. The question that I take from your paper is, should that change should Bologna try to be more supportive and enhance the opportunities for universities there and I think that's probably something that we should discuss. Because since the last circle of Bologna, we have a working group on that and being in this working group, we found it actually very difficult to tell governments what they should do, other than that, they should support, encourage, inspire and fund higher education. So as the new Bologna cycle is just starting now, maybe this is something that we should take up and discuss with you and other organizations more closely, what should Bologna do in the next round to improve the situation of institutions. I just can support what Vanessa said about and what you said in your paper about lifelong learning. I think that's a really important point. And I also think that it goes beyond micro credentials, of course, what we think is that the mission, the mission of high education institutions and lifelong learning is not fully recognized. It's a very superficial thing now and we would have to go down also in the different national systems, why that is actually so and how that could be improved. Last point that I want to make here is about university networks and associations that you make in that paper and of course this is also something that we would support and just making the points that this is of course a much broader landscape, because the European University initiatives and the guilds and like organizations. And in this regard, I'm really grateful that you invited me here today. And EUA is ready to collaborate with you on these issues and use our muscle basically and our position to bring them also up to European level in the European education area and of course in the European higher education area. So that's from my side for the moment. So there are a whole range of issues that you have both raised. Can I maybe start with the first, which is I guess a little bit of the elephant in the room as soon as you start talking about the technological transformation that we've also just experienced. And Vanessa maybe starting with you. So I mean we're talking at a time when we're at the back end of an academic year which has been just incredibly tough for for students and for tutors and and administrators all along I mean we've all been in this together at the commission indeed. And, and, you know where people have had to do so much without any extra resource sometimes less. When we think about the esteem of teaching there's a real question about how institutions then juggle this. And so so the question to you I guess so first of all there's of course something going on at European level now as we think about how we reevaluate careers and and and I think there is also a discussion about academic careers which allows I think some of the things that Michael said maybe to to to be brought up a bit more. But there's also in more concrete terms, Vanessa. A question really about the funding so do you detect at your level where you sit a greater willingness of, of education ministers to to science ministers to give greater weight to to funding students and to, and to provide the resource that actually takes to do learning properly, given that we are at a time also of very difficult public finance and a corollary is that in a sense of to you as a funder right to the commission as a funder because there's also a real question about how funders provide proper for instance proper funding to research projects so that there is no need to cross subsidize between research and education. So I guess. It's many questions in anyone but trying to address all your points young. When it comes to the academic careers I can only subscribe to what you said that indeed what we observe that at your level and it's valid in many countries that education is not recognized at the same level as research activities and that this is a real issue. As you said if we want to reach excellence in pedagogies it needs to be rewarded in the in the career of staff so that's that's a real challenge actually. The research working party has adopted Council conclusions recently on on research careers and here we have been involved a little bit in these discussions and we have put forward this idea to not forget the education part so we are quite happy that now this is part of the Council conclusions which is a good start from then the next steps and what we can propose in the coming Council Council recommendations so attached to the European strategy for universities. So, we are aiming at providing a number of Council conditions to provide recommendations to the member states but also to the commission on how we can incentivize these these transformations so one will be on life long learning and another one will be on education for environmental sustainability another one, maybe on how we can support deeper trust national cooperation as you said, as you said before European universities are a bit the front runners and the pioneers in that front and to what we are learning with them and many of you today. So it is really the limit of how the Boronia instruments have been implemented so far by the member states and how we can make it more flexible in the way it is implemented so far and as as Michael said there is the reason need for for deep reflection there because because when it comes to accreditation to quality assurance and there are a lot of limitations there. So, when it comes to funding, it also triggers many questions, not only in terms of level of funding, but also the criteria for providing that funding, you know that is very, there is such a huge diversity between all the member states. And how high education institutions are funded and actually there is a non going study at our level to map a little bit these different funding models and to get some recommendations for the future because if, and this is why it is so important to have this collective strategy I think funding models we need to be reviewed in the context of such a European strategy. If we want to have better recognition of education if you want to have more trust disciplinary approaches more trust national approaches finding the right balance between between digital and and physical education learning all this needs to be reflected in these funding models. So, what is good and you said whether we see the ministers being willing to get these discussions, my answer is yes. Actually, I've been asking for putting these discussions and investments as part of the priorities to be discussed in the context of the European education we have. And there is a new, if you want to work in group that has been set up with members from the member states to have a huge reflection, not only when it comes to high education research but also covering all the different sectors including school education. And the reflection that we're having with this group is really, it's not only about level of funding, but again, level of funding with which impact, and how can we monitor the impact of such level of funding. So you see that it's a wide discussions level of funding. It's, it's how based on which criteria we provide funding and then it's about monitoring the impact of such of such funding. There is, you know, a lot of different European instruments to fund universities. There is of course house was plus there was rising Europe, but there is also the next generation. So recovery funds now the countries are presenting their strategy on how they can use the recovery funds. Here we're quite happy that a number of countries are using them to bring to invest in high education to make it in some countries that are focusing inclusion, some of this digitalization, for example, in these digital issues. And so that's very good. That's very good. I think it's a very good move. We made me hope in some countries to see more of that. And let's, let's be transparent. But it's a very positive move. Now, what, what we hear is that sometimes universities are a bit lost, you know, with all these different instruments and all these different criteria. So, maybe there may be a need. And this is a question for you if you could see a lot of value, if I should endeavor together with my colleagues in digital research but also other departments we would come up with, with more guidance to high education institutions in how to make best use of these critical funding together with, of course, the discussions that we're having with the member states on on this crucial investment in education, particularly in high education. Thank you. Joe, I think you wanted to come in and maybe have a few quick reflections to Vanessa's in that aspect also particularly Michael's Michael's interventions. And I've been making notes, which I'm getting longer and longer and I think then I check the time that I have two minutes so I don't know where to begin. But I very first of all I very much and thoroughly support both the ethos and the principle and Vanessa the position of what you're saying and also the opportunity to for for the guidance to be clear and connect as to how the students should engage. I think there is, there is definitely something that connects one of the sort of core points that I would like to reflect on that, that is really important the support for for learning networks for pedagogic innovation to create this infrastructure that would enable to create a strategy to learn from good practices, but also to incentivize and that cuts very much into what Michael was saying about parity of a steam. This is something that I'm really passionate about so I'm just trying to sort of not get too passionate about it right now, but Michael is very much a sort of the heart of the issue. He's very much everywhere around us and until we actually achieve part of the steam, then we would still very much not be in a position where we would be able to have the proper recognition. So colleagues have had the experiences that I've had in my career I've always been a strategic research I've always had large education roles, I still have very senior research work at the different research councils and so on, and also education role with education and learning councils and what I see Steve is that when I'm in my research world. Nobody asks me about what I do in my education world when they do that is very often to offer commiserations and to ask me why why I'm doing all those things and actually often the same when in my education and teaching and learning world. Very rarely do I have a chance to talk about what I do as a researcher. I fundamentally think that this is damaging. It is political it's ideological. It actually really not serve our sexes we really need to change it and I think that's something that we can change. And I would very much welcome to actually see support in incentivising and in sort of offering ways to to offer the recognition and for pushing really the sector to really do it because that is something where we can achieve change. And that's also something very important that we have an enormous power enormous collective power to actually do it. So there are certain things that we can do there are certain other things that we need to debate to actually bring and find solutions, but I think some of those that we know are big blocks. And I think we should start by providing ways that we can go beyond what we actually experienced and we know the situation right now. I think that's probably more or less my time but I think also having the opportunity to to identify this very fine equilibrium we need between our approaches to and our understanding of autonomy and what autonomy can and should do both from an individual academic level to institutional to regional to national to international and how actually this needs to work with flexible systems that enable enable creativity and enable pedagogic innovation to actually grow. I think that's very important and to me, we have seen fantastic good practice over the years, what is often missing is a sort of critical link from moving a pilot to implementation, a good experiment to the mainstream, a good initiative that remains in sort of the peripheries of institution to becoming something that can be embedded in the curriculum journey so that it can actually touch and then reach the experience of all students. And I think this to me is really the important question how can we move into embedding into building in where we know we have a lot of very good experience, how can we make this can we actually make this a reality for the majority of our students and to then mobilize it to create new and alternative pathways so that we can also address all the portfolio that we want to address to see an inclusive higher education with more credit pathways alongside traditional degrees and so on. I'll stop. I see you're sort of telling me. Joe, really. So I'm stopping here but thank you thank you really so much and I'm so much looking forward to all the conversations that we will be having in seminars. So, so, Michelle, before I bring you back into the conversation and then Vanessa, can I also throw in an addition so clearly many points raised by Joe as well. But can I just raise one further point, Michelle rises straight from your point about the Bologna reform forms and maybe the need to kind of align Bologna more closely or find new ways of aligning the Bologna framework which is only framework as you note, and I just wonder whether in some ways the European education area, could in a sense be the missing link or whether the European strategy Vanessa that you were talking about could be the missing link that develops the vision that could then tell kind of inform the Bologna process more kind of what it then needs to do in order to fill that with life. Or does that not work given that of course they are very different remits. They're different geographic scopes of the two. So maybe maybe you might also reflect on on that. Yeah, no happy to do that just to very short comments one on the funding side because that's that's of course an important issue and just to remind that this is not all about European funding but it's also about the funding that the institution is at a level. And what we see really as a as a kind of a problem is if there is a growing emphasis on performance based funding, you know, if you have certain purposes behind it. And on the other hand you find that institutions are actually chronically under financed here. And you know our publication on that. This is really not helping the sector in the end, you know, but just that's that's the point that so institutions are funded and then everything else can come on top of course, and we see that also in the view of what's the the the month is and years to to come after the crisis. I mean it's not not very likely that everywhere will be more funding around for higher education so we have to be very smart about this. This is about what Joe just said about careers and just to say also it's not just about the research and education but it's also about all the other things that are so important the whole third mission internationalization comes out strongly in there are diverse careers in universities and we have to make sure that all these diversity is somehow these diverse approaches are recognized in career development and then and and just to say it's not just between research and other careers in the institution. The problem is also on the research side, you know, the way how you assess and value research and this is something that you a is has been taking up about a year or two years ago, and which we are discussing with members and partners, but to your question about Bologna and the EHEA and I'm sure Vanessa has a view on that to our from our view they are complimentary. Yeah. I wouldn't try to use one through the other but they should be aligned if in if you in certain ways and if you look around. I mean, Vanessa and I will meet at events and we meet the week after at each events and we look around and the colleagues are not as the same. So I think that's a good opportunity to do our complimentary and different things and different frameworks without ignoring what is done in the other one. Yeah, we will have to avoid to duplicate and to contradict you know but have a high level of alignment and I'm not really worried about that. I think the Bologna process has become more accessible for for the sector if you go through the publications that it has put out the communicates of 2015 18 and 20 they really make very clear that there has more work to take place with the sector, and it's also evident why I mean before it was about big structural reforms, but this is now about learning and teaching about which is not done in the ministry it's done at the institution so it needs all this bottom up inspiration the bottom up initiatives. As Joe said, they are emerging we have we have it all and the crisis showed it you know, basically we joined the dots of what was already there and activated a lot of good things of digital experience which was already there but it wasn't mainstreamed it wasn't rolled out throughout the institution. And I think you can take this as an analogy, we should use Bologna to do that, not in a top down way but really to share good practice good ways forward, and try to find agreement on them. Thank you, Vanessa. So, I would like to, of course, agree with with Michael and maybe I can, I can clarify the connection between the high education dimension of the European education that is focused geographically in the member states, and European higher education which in the context of the European education we are, I think they reinforce each other. So, if you want, we could not go as deep as we can in the context of the European education we are without the Bologna tools, and we are building on the Bologna tools that are so important. I think we can, the added value of the European education we are is that within the European Union, we can go a little bit faster and deeper because we have some instruments that we do not have in the context of Bologna which is a voluntary process. So, with this European strategy for universities and the attached cultural conditions that we are working on, we can really incentivize member states to apply in a much more flexible way the Bologna commitments. And when we discuss with the universities, they're facing really obstacles and big hurdles because of the rigidity in the way some member states are implementing qualification systems or accreditation. So we need to be able, within the European Union, to really try to really open for such flexibility, which I am sure then will inspire all the countries that are members of the European higher education we are. So I see it as an incremental process where any progress will help the others to progress and one will use the progress made in one area for the other area. So that's really the way we see this. So it's fully complementary and as Michael said, no contradiction between one and the other. Vanessa and Michael, we're getting towards the end of this first panel, but I've got to ask you this before before we close this and it's because we've we've Michael, you also raised this point that we've made in our paper on international collaboration. And the different kind of networks that we're seeing in the proliferation of international network and in a way we've made this point that in a sense internationalization is really very, very high up on all our agendas. And we also feel that we need to start articulating more clearly what exactly the value is what is it that we're getting out of what is the value proposition. And clearly we have this really exciting initiative of the European universities and, and, and I guess the question when it comes to pedagogic innovation is what is it that we can that this initiative enables us to do that. We couldn't do, as institutions ourselves ourselves now granted there is a sharing of best practice but of course you can do that with your university down the road right I mean so so in a sense, what is it and how would you do how would you articulate that initiative next to the other forms of collaborations that we already seeing that we have already see and that we will continue to see both within Europe and beyond Europe. Okay, all right. I think it's very well explained in the in your report that we need all these type of different networks because they have different objectives which are very much complimentary. We see the added value of the U.A. or Duke or Coimbra or Lerue or many other networks as a platform for exchange between universities like so so because of this wide diversity of the higher education it can be different and it's very good to have these different networks bring together universities have been facing the same, the same issues the same challenges and the added value is typically the report that you are presenting today, sharing all these different practices. The way we see the universities is more in implementing together all these good practices that you have been exchanging in the other form network so I think that's why the we have changed a little bit the terminology around we do not consider them as networks, but as really alliances, alliances showing a long term vision that they are implementing together so it's really disimplementation, and that's that makes the huge difference between the two. And now when it comes to the pedagogical innovation, I think you've drafted someone reported that these universities can do much more than the sum of all their parts and I like that very much in there in the report actually, because when it comes to pedagogical innovation and you speak in the report about the importance of this importance to have these key disciplinary expertise, but at the same time to go beyond this disciplinary expertise, so that students can learn together on how to look together between experts from different disciplines at complex issues such as development goals, etc. So we need this complementarity between both of course you can organize it at between faculties within a given institutions, but when you add to that, this, this trust nationality, you gain much more because of different cultures, because of different approaches that you're having looking at it if you're looking with the southern countries, you can still see differences in the approaches as compared to northern countries, the same between east and west. So this is why these universities by bringing together these different perspectives, not only between different disciplines, but also all this history, all these different cultural approaches that makes it so rich and I was so happy to attend a conference recently from four different universities where the students spoke and they spoke about their experience. And they said that it's so rich that, you know, having this possibility to cooperate with other students from other disciplines from north, east, west and east and what they told us is that communicate, communicate more about it because even within the given institutions, students are not aware about these fantastic opportunities and I think this is a real challenge for European universities at the moment to make these opportunities well known among that huge student and staff putting within the institutions. Thank you and Micha. Well, I think Vanessa captured it already very well it's about it's really about learning at different levels in the institution and also about, I would say, well deep learning probably this different thing on whether you look at each other and listen to each other, or where you actually start to do things together. And we have seen that in many different ways. I mean, the joint degrees where a good example which I think which have brought in major movement into learning. It's a stuff learning approach. That's what joint degrees actually became isn't it. I mean international experience for students but and learning of course, but also stuff learn through it how curricula developed elsewhere and the whole academic and teaching culture that you have at other institutions. We do we do that also regularly through our thematic peer groups where we bring vice rector's together and they exchange among each other. And there's a lot of evidence that they go back and I mean it gives them the inspiration of doing things but it also when you when they start then collaborating as you do in joint degrees or also in collaboration. You also become much more aware of the different issues that you have in different systems and I think that makes for the deeper learning. You can have exchanges for years without understanding anything about the systems in which people work. Look at all the exchanges that we have with the US, but who really knows how you how a US university functions very few probably do. So I think that would be my point here. And it's moving. It's about the program but also the whole institution so it's really adds to what we want to be the learning institutions. So I think we have to find reflections on on what you've heard in this panel. I'll just say three words. I think it's actually the sort of moving from having sort of this linear connection and seeing them as something that sort of connects one to one or one area of activity or another to creating really a matrix. And if we achieve that this is really how we can articulate the value added proposition and also make it relevant to the whole experience in our universities instead of limiting limiting to those we immediately participate so it's basically translating the opportunity and and to the plural from from mobility to mobilities and looking to sort of a portfolio opportunity and also portfolio opportunity to capitalize on the work we do so that these experiences invested in creating this transformational potential and I think to me this is really the deep opportunity that we have right now and and connect collaboration, which, as Ian said they sort of there's a lot of value in collaboration in sort of the regional national and international, and by opening those channels where we can bring the regional networks to the cross European there there is a fantastic opportunity for this place making orientation that so many institutions want to have this very good work that is happening to benefit others and benefit other regions and then connect with other kinds of strategies that we want to achieve. But it's also how to unblock the barriers that we have on the way to achieve this matrix of connections. So I want to end this first panel with a thank you of course to our first set of speakers, and I would like maybe just by way of summary I would, you know, like to thank the Commission but also urge us all to kind of really participate in this dialogue about the European especially for you for universities because that can only really be fruitful and and have legs if we all really engage with it and if it really genuinely expresses what we feel to be true about our journey ourselves. And there are many opportunities Vanessa pointed to one but but there will be others so so I would urge us all to take part. It's really appeal to you Vanessa also to kind of take our side and really engage on our behalf when it really does come to this question of resource in terms in your discussions with the national ministers. As we've discussed this is not just a European question is also very much a national question when I see ministers, making comments that actually now that we've got digital the digital classroom then we no longer need to fund per student because in the sense it's all the same. So there are some really quite worrying ways signals that we pick up at a time of declining public resource. And so I do think this is this is an area where we really do need to engage together to to insist on the importance and value that we do not for our own sake, and not simply for our students but actually for society at large. But maybe with with that background I'll move to the second panel we already have a first question that is as a more one more practice. And we will come back to this question in the Q&A session. I'm very pleased to welcome our second panel here. I'm beginning with Benoit Rossin who is the president of the Louvain Learning Lab. And the Louvain Learning Lab is remarkable not just because it's an outstanding incubator for innovative pedagogy but it has existed really for over 25 years now so this is, this has got a very, very long history of engaging with changing mediums of education and with innovation with with change and so I'm really delighted to welcome Benoit. And I do give each in a is the Dean of Humanities at Vitalters Magnus University encounters in Lithuania. And this is the university that was founded in 1989 to embody the significance of universities for for in a sense civic cultural and social well being so this this university in itself embodies the value of universities for society and for us. In a very short time it's already merged as one of Lithuania's top two comprehensive universities I hope I can say this here. And then we have Jürgen Kürmann, Kürmann who is a professor at the Department of Internal Medicine, but he's also the director of the University at Maastricht University and Maastricht of course is widely known for its pioneering role in the adoption of problem based learning so I couldn't wish for a better panel to to share their reflections and maybe Benoit if I start with if we start with with you. Thank you very much. Can you share the slide please. I just want to emphasize some key elements of the paper, because I think it's quite very important. And what I want just to show you in five slide is three observation and for and for awesome of the pandemic crisis. Can you show us the second one please. Thank you. The first aspect is that we know that socialization is a very important aspect and camera is not a technical problem with the pedagogical one. And so we, we observe that socialization is an important topics. The next one please. The second one is that the experience is quite different depending on the on the situation of each other. This situation can be a social context, but also the need of the people. So this means that there is clearly a need for more flexibility in programs and activities. Next slide please. And the third element, I think it's a very important one but maybe it's more complex. We had to move from in person and online for teaching and for assessment. And in this process for moving from in prison to online, maybe in some time, we fail in the alignment principle. This means that we had on presence, maybe alignment between the teaching activities and the assessment, but on the moving process. Sometimes we lose this alignment. And so alignment is becoming a very key element in the reflection. And so we know we see the form for lesson. Can you see the next one please. So the first of all, as I said, there was a very large variety of needs. And we have to seeing about life on learning. This means that we have to seek for more flexibility in the, in the activities, but also in the program, people are looking for short micro credentials short short program and so on. So we have to be more flexible regarding that. The next one please. And that we know that the classical way of teaching as some limitation, and we have to move for pedagogical innovation as many people said. So we have to look for PBL approach. We have to look for research. We have to look for learning approach, flip it classroom, and so on, there are many of it, but we have to move from stage stage on the stage to guide on the side. It's quite important to change the philosophy of of the teaching. And the next one please. Another important aspect is the way we see internationalization, and we have to think more deeper in how can we organize internationalization. I just show you an example. We can use online courses with international expert. This means that we will follow courses from expert anywhere in the world. And then we could have teamwork based on web conferencing, and we could have local activities. So we can combine this in a more powerful way. And the last slide please. The last one is the fact that in order to implement this we have to provide more importance of education, and we have to find a better balance between research and innovative pedagogy. So this means that we have to implement a real way of, for example, a sort of strategy inside the diversity. That's what I want to say, but of course I'm ready to answer your question. Thank you very much, Benoit. That's wonderful. And before we get to the question answers, maybe Ruta, if I might ask you to Hello, thank you. Thank you for the invitation to this event and the opportunity to discuss some education strategy issues with you. And first of all, I would like to share some thoughts, and I'm going to do that from different personal perspectives as a member of university administration but also as a teacher and researcher in the field of humanities. And as Jan mentioned, I represent the university applying the principles of liberal arts, and that's why I'm the most familiar with the advantages and challenges of such institutions. And we all know, and we have heard today, the transformation of traditional professional models and the increasing individualization of education process demand more and more different study options. In this sense, there are many opportunities or advantages for the universities, university schools that enable their students to combine individual courses far beyond the actual study subject or study program, and that's not relevant skills for future independent qualification, but of course trying to expand the freedom of choice in studies and individualization of the study process. We face challenges as all universities do, and regarding the digitalization, just to give one example. It is not enough to change from face to face learning to online learning on individual course level, or even on study program level because our curricula, they include an substantial part of introductory courses to various branches of science and arts, and also it's necessary to transform all this introductory part, if we want to offer the same options for all our students from traditional, I would say traditional study programs also and online study programs. So the benefits of digitalization are benefits are beyond all doubt when we speak about monitoring assessment of the study process. It's also very important for strengthening the relationship between academia and other institutions, especially in cases of rescuing or recognizing competences acquired in not formal way. However, there are still a lot of challenges, a lot of problems when it comes to formal teaching and learning. The virtual learning online learning seems to be convenient for lectures and to some extent for seminars, still there are many problems in case of research or experience led projects and students teamwork, the study methods, study competences, or even study outcomes that especially in times of pandemic should be valid the most, the student teamwork, cooperation, collaboration, and that unfortunately I think seem to decrease in number at the moment, and I suppose because of the fear of some teachers that it is virtually difficult to implement. And especially in humanities students and teachers, they appreciate face to face discussions and creative work environment very much. And so the model that our university now is considering includes approximately 80% of face to face and maybe 25% of blended or virtual learning, because it's also very important for inclusion of vulnerable social groups and also inclusion for students in part employment or even in full time employment. And as a teacher, I am really very convinced and I have experienced, and I'm convinced that studies in humanities, studies in biology and other subject fields they should respond to the demands of students not only to handle professionally the specific contents acquired in their studies but also provide them with key skills such as self confidence, creativity, flexibility, and to facilitate their participation in future professional life. And I think nobody doubts the question that and why the experience and action oriented learning should have its fixed place in the university teaching. However, there are still many problems integrating such research based other projects into existing curricula and the questions always are and we have discussions at our university. Should they be integrated in bigger course units, should they be carried out parallel to some courses or should it be offered as individual course units, and maybe the last and one more. I think, on my opinion, one of the biggest challenges and that that needs support also on the university level is building wealth functioning networks of motivated stakeholders. Actually that sees their benefits and they also there's a kind of strategic decisions to be involved in such students activities. And so when someone outside the academia shows interest in the project results and once it implemented. So this leads to a significant increase of student motivation and also higher learning effect. Of course it is important for the visibility of the university also for the stakeholders involved. And but of course it's a challenge for teachers to ensure that valuable result is created for the customer. So that she or he is potentially available for future projects. So I think also this cooperation that stakeholders is also very important and should be supported on the university level as well. And some introduction remarks and thoughts. Thank you very much, Ruta. And last but certainly not least one. Thank you very much also for the invitation. Good morning to all. Yeah, I think it was a very good and stimulated document which I read with a lot of new insights and I think really kind of a first roadmap for our future and first what I would like to comment on this actually the possible chances which we have of the lessons of the COVID pandemic for international collaboration that this actually also stimulated by a large experience which we had to achieve a very short periods of time with the introduction of of online environments and and and also actually we and you know Maastricht we do problem based learning based on small group learning and we had to adjust actually over a single day nearly to do this online and actually it. Let's say it went well from from let's say learning perspective students were able to to learn what they wanted to learn what's supposed to learn. But what you also saw is that the societal that let's say the impact of the of meeting each other the societal impact of learning and the collaborative impact of learning actually decreased by these purely online environments. And if you want to look into the future actually I think and I think that's the international mobility, either whether it is virtual, or really physically each other should be and should be fostered. And you could very well think of hybrid approaches because I think young people like to travel like to meet other people you cannot do this, probably purely online. And I think a combination of international mobility with if people if the students come back in their home universities stimulated by interdisciplinary projects with people from different universities which you got to meet. That would really be I think in, let's say, good asset for the for the for the future in a way, and Maastricht actually there's also we're part of an initiative it's called young universities for the future of Europe to you face. And actually it's also they built a virtual campus on that and that was trying to make a beginning with this type of initiatives in a way and I hope this will also be set. And I think it's at this stage for the for the for the future, but importantly, and that's more for the first panel. Also, you need a harmonization equality assurance systems and recognition of study activities which were done at other universities and in the end, I think being kind of diploma would be and I think the ultimate ultimate goal but it will be long before this has been achieved. Also would like to react on research based education and I come from the medical field, and we have a lot of papers on covert and what it would mean and we learned a lot from this. I think it would also be very good for the educational community and I know that quite some efforts on that, actually to also to share what we all learned from the covert experience because in the end in the end come and actually expand the whole spectrum of research led and also by going to a more evidence way of of education learning what worked and what did not work in that lab that's also initiative, what we did at least did in our own university to look what we should keep what we should certainly not keep and also try to learn from, from educational, yeah, experiences and other and other universities and I think as a European network we could really learn from each other and and build. Yeah, let's say an even better education for them for the for the for the future. So I think actually it's also called to include this on research led education, I strongly value the role of research and education. It's surely an undergraduate level also to stimulate critical thinking collaboration together. So it could also does not necessarily have to be I think in the start of the undergraduate career to be purely research that could also be project or challenge based. It's about I think firstly about stimulating critical thinking, working together collaboration and an interdisciplinary project. That's actually what I and there's a lot more to learn from from from this wonderful paper but these are actually the first thoughts which which came to my mind when when reading it. Thank you. Um, can I just, before I go back to the panelists, can I just bring in Joe and Yuri again because there's a there's a question that was submitted by a member of the audience by Johanna and I and Joe, do you want to just reflect on read and reflect on the question. Thank you. Yes. Thank you very much and thanks very much to the calling for the question a very important one. What is how much we've engaged the first part of the question is how much the paper draws on existing literature research literature on research led education and undergraduate undergraduate research. The answer is that we have engaged very much with what what is available and and we're trying in the paper you will find when you when it reaches you that there is a section that is exactly trying to provide a synthesis and a meta comment. The next argument we're taking is that there is a lot of good work and you're referring to some pieces and some of the work that's advanced a key has been doing and so on. What we're trying to do in the paper is to actually provide sort of a meta comment on the sort of terminological polyphony we have from inquiry based teaching and learning research based teaching and learning research led teaching research learning research link teaching and research informed teaching and actually all of those come with their own disciplinary traditions and literatures and so on and what we're trying to do is to actually show a little bit or the sort of the diversity of course the different the different designs and formats and pedagogic practice that exists and and and and sort of move and relate those to active learning pedagogies and how it connects with the current policy frame. So in the sort of always impossible challenge of a short paper we tried very much to take both the the literature and the scholarship in that area. I think comparing to the importance of the topic we need more work in that so there is still what I think is relatively little compared to how significant it is in so many different ways. And we've also connected with policy and policy documents and where we had opportunities to connect with examples. And some of the case studies exactly because it's so central. We also try to illustrate and draw on existing expertise through some of the case studies and that's why in that part of the paper you will see two case studies when when you have a chance to take a look. So I hope I hope that is an answer to the first part. And the second is around micro credentials and forms of knowledge. I would like to sort of flag here that we will have a lot of opportunity to discuss this on the 29th of June and I really hope that you will join us there. Because we are going to really open up and discuss the role of research led institutions in establishing alternative credit pathways, good experience that we have in the sector how we can work with other providers. I think the position we're taking is that of course there is no easy and one answer to that in terms of what the format the content and how it can work with other learning opportunities. But what is important is that the quality of the learning experience the quality of the experience of the adult learner and and the university's mission to provide holistic and transformative education is very much needs to maintain whatever design so micro credentials or any is is part of a gig. So it's it's it's part of a bigger solution is not the solution itself. So this is just to basically say very important. Fundamentally one of the issues that we really want to use as a conduit into discussing how we can work together how we should work together and what we can learn from one another and hopefully we will continue this part of the discussion on the 29th of June. Thank you. Can I can I maybe now also bring some questions from participants who who provided questions at the registration to maybe Benoit and also your own. And starting with you Benoit and so I guess a truthful question in an online environment. How do you increase. Do you have any wise words thoughts about how we increase students motivation. You know, given given that that can be a real challenge. And also from your rich experience in in the learning lab. How do you encourage and reward teaching innovation. I will start with the second one. Okay. I think to transfer the auto literature. Maybe that to level in the answer with the global level and the more practical level. I will start with the global level, but the global level we have to, we have to implement scholarship of teaching, teaching and learning strategy into university. And as well, we have to implement if it doesn't based education. I think that the two key elements in order to promote such thing and, and so practically, what can we do. First of all, we have to provide training. This means that any teacher may have the opportunity to follow training session about how to make to make innovation or to use problem based learning research based on anything like that. We have to provide a training to people. The second thing we can we can do is to try to use the sharing aspect. We know that to promote people. You can organize a session when people share the expertise, share the experience. And this is a double win win situation because people will share, you know, it is quite interesting for him or for him to be on the stage and the other will learn from from the other we implemented this and it's really really very interesting how people respond to this to this opportunity. In the same way, we can help people try funding for them participate to pedagogical conferences. And then the third practical thing is the working on the on the promotion process. For example, in where we implement what we call the teaching portfolio. This mean that if anyone want to get to get promote to get to get promoted. Yes, to write down and to present is teaching portfolio to commission. And at the same time, we work with a commission and we introduce the commission of a list of criteria, we use a rubric grid if you if you know such practical tools in order to evaluate application in pedagogy as well and application in research. And so it's important to have very clear criteria and to so that the professor can be assessed on on both on research and on the pedagogical innovation. So regarding your, your, your first question. In fact, how to motivate student that quite practical aspect, working in groups, and so on. But I think the key element is to work on the cycle contextualization, the contextualization, this mean you start with a clear question in PBL, we start with a problem, but it can be a research problem can be anything, it can be a question, anything you want but something with that will trigger the, the, the mortality so that different kind of, of a good contextualization but it's interesting to start with something that they will find an interest in. And then, based on that, they have to recognize that it's not possible to, to solve this problem of this challenge without learning something. And this motivates them to learn that's the decontextualization phase, this means that, based on the problem, you are looking to learn something you need to solve the problem. And at the end of the process, the recontextualization, really you come back to the first problem or to another one. And, and you propose you up you apply to you propose a solution to classical problem so the key element is to start with a question, a problem, a situation that have some interest in the student aspect. You have three other aspects of for for engaging people. The second one is the level of the problem you propose to them, it's at the right level, if it's too complex, they won't get engaged because it's complex, if it's not complex enough. They will not go for it because it's too easy to solve. And the last one is not the easiest one is the fact that people have to choose what they want to, what they want to do so you give them at least one part of freedom. If you're selecting the starting point of the problem, it can be a way you will organize. You can, it can be what you want to learn. But anything they need to have to choose something in the process, because as we do as a teacher in research, we choose the research you want to work in, we choose your teams, we choose everything. To give student more choose in the process of learning. Thank you. You don't you have any, any additional comments on it. Yeah, thank you. First, going to this to the students it's indeed quite a challenge if you go from a small groups of people working together in a nice campus environment to go online and I also had the experience as a teacher have working with the small groups. The cognitive point of view it's it's it's possible to to get to the knowledge as already mentioned what what needs to be achieved. But let's say that the whole personal contact is it's much more difficult and probably the answer lies next to what they've been already mentioned also in trying to engage students and teachers together as much as possible. Yeah, we have of course our online small groups working this has all the had all had to go through through zoom, but what actually has an experience because at that lab we're also responsible for instance for excellence programs for master students. And I saw that the value of interdisciplinary projects or group projects with a clear goal in which students had to work together they and the friends they built their own website on tumblr had to comment on each other's website and in the end actually projects were discussed in a large online and environment. And this actually seems to be very motivated so it is also kept at the students but also teach us connected in a way to actually trying to make this connection and and and even an online environment, getting people to meet each other as much as possible, because otherwise they will probably lose connection and get and get detached from different university, which is not completely and preventable regrettably. Of course also and for teacher actually more or less holds the same also in our universities have been teachers who have not been at the campus for friends March 2020, which is a very long period of time and it's also means that people can get in can get a loop. It's also I think very good to involve teacher, what we try to do at that lab is to get teachers to meet a movie called teach meets had to share experiences. We also organized professional activities, continuous professional activities, actually trying to learn from each other but also from educationalists, how to best develop your your teaching and your teaching strategies that's just one. Importantly, actually also for the teacher. It's also kind of technical support a lot of problems in the beginning what we had is is actually the word technical supports problem with the electronic learning environments trust problems with zoom recording videos etc. You have to keep this kind of very practical support and you have to put this in place these were really lessons also which we had to to to learn. But I think the basic one is actually to get people connected to get people just to meet each other in, even if it is in the virtual environment. That would be next to I think to the comments of been one which I fully agree my addition. Thank you. Michael, you wanted to come in on a couple of points. If I may so a really interesting contributions and a good discussion. I'm probably starting with what your own said I completely agree I mean the lessons learned that we get from this exercise. I mean this they'll have to be written up and I think a good part of it will come when you are hopefully very soon back on campus and bring together the virtual and the physical activities. The points that Benoit and root are made is actually about assessment and also about team working I just wonder is that also an example would you say that this is an example of things that are difficult. Virtually online, but they are also virtually on a difficult on. They are also difficult in physical environment. I mean we know all about the discussion on constructive line alignment and also about how difficult is for teachers to value and recognize teamwork and an end and I probably to add just another dimension. The social experience obviously very difficult online, but it also made us realize that we relied basically on structures and actors on campus which were not always fully recognized. Yeah, be it the role of students unions there in this or student clubs. I would just say infrastructure you know the triviality that people can go into the canteen which is a place for very informal information and knowledge sharing, which is of course missing online, but is there also does that also provide some pointers on how to use them better in the real physical environment and the point that Jerome and also Joe made about research and somebody asked the question in the chat actually is academic research recognized. Is this something where we should, which we should use better, I mean there's a lot of academic research done. And on the other hand we do this more practice oriented research is there a gap to be matched during these two. And probably another one that I have then, which is about what Jerome just said we filled around with the technology when we went into the lockdown. And by now we know how to use teams and zoomed. But is that really what we need. I listened last week to the manager or technical director of a big car company who hailed Microsoft, who said this is fantastic. I never heard anybody from education saying anything positive about Microsoft. And then I suddenly realized that we just get the best breadcrumbs isn't it. I mean we just get what big tech companies produce for the needs of big industries. But who is producing for us probably so there wasn't so much need so far, but this has been changing. So is that something that we have to take up also to avoid what Joe highlighted or was the paper highlighted about to make to ensure that this will still be interoperability interoperable. There's a lot of small tech companies coming up now. But if we all sign up with these different companies, we risk that risks some, yeah, disconnect and fragmentation. Would anybody like from the panel like to comment. Maybe. Sure. Are you wanted to start. No, I start earlier so good. So then maybe who turn then, but no. Okay, okay, okay. I think some very good question from Michael, I'll capture some of them actually versus. I think the technological need I think that's that's an interesting one. And it should be a go further than I think just being able to to deal with zoom in a way because it's, it was a prerequisite actually for us to do video conferencing but it should. We want to take it seriously we should take it a step further, but also not being I think led by only by what was what are the developments from tax, but working together. I think personally, I want to do to build a very good virtual campus in a way that would be a prerequisite I think for for good international collaboration. Yeah, we would certainly need the help with, I think from tech, but in the joint, and I think in the joint environment and not actually see okay what they did develop and how can we use it now. We should engage with them with with the tech companies there to build something really based on collaboration I think that that would be very important one about the research I think that Joe also alluded on that that can be kind of a gap I think between your research and your world and your teaching world I also experienced and that what we tried to do master of university is a kind of actually also to stimulate teachers to do research to do educational research which is in itself not that simple. I'm more and that's a medical researcher in the way and also didn't find it simple, but it actually to to give teaching or teacher and inspire research also the place it deserves, also as a part of recognition and reward from the academic career I think that would be very important and I think lastly I think about the assessment. I think the standard way of assessments, we had to do it partly by proctoring which is not a very good or stimulating tool at all. So what we learned from that and we already had differences in the field of medicine, we really want to move to programmatic assessment, which you get a more, I think holistic view of what different competencies of the students, and we would probably not try to repeat in the end if let's say, we would be in the same environment again, going back to proctoring because this is not an, I think to personally not a way to go for the for the future and doesn't give real. I think that's the value to the assessment in the way like what we'd like to achieve in program based learning. I think this far would be my comments you ask properly more but I would also like to give my colleagues a chance to reflect on that. Thank you, comments. Also, we spoke about internationalization actually of study programs and courses, and I think digital learning and the internationalization in terms of now European University alliances, one big advantage in my opinion is building student networks, because I really sure that the internet civilization on the research level on that level of cooperation between researchers and teachers it functions very well. Actually, what we need much more is the cooperation between students, regional, not only on the European level but also regional cooperation regional student networks later they may become also professional networks but we should start already in academia at the university building such networks and I think European University initiative is a very good instrument for that. And so, also, our responsibility, of course, especially in the field of humanities for our own, own society and there are so many important issues that we have to discuss like dealing with our cultural memory and so on, or maybe appropriation of public spaces, urban spaces, but of course for students, it's much more motivating if they do it also in regional networks, in international networks. And I think it's also, of course, when we speak about assessment, the teamwork challenge or problem or based project they're always much more difficult to assess. But I think we should do that and we should encourage such that our students enter different communities and generates, implements ideas together with like-minded friends. And I think it's important that do they do that voluntarily, so that they have this freedom of choice and so also with professionals outside the university. So I think it's really, it's the best education for responsible citizens at this voluntary and the freedom of choice. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ruta. And but not just one minute, I'm afraid, because we're getting towards the end. Okay, technically what we need is tool to implement debate. That student can debate once together, whiteboard and so on. That's what we need. About assessment, some of my colleague asked me, what can I do to avoid cheating? And so we organize what we call Google proof session, just to have an exam, Google proof. And what is interesting in this process is that, in fact, Google proof concentrate on competencies. And so we come back to the assessment, to the constructive alignment. So maybe you can focus on competencies than on knowledge and connection with the research, evidence based education. This means to use the same principle as in research. So first you start to, when you want to innovate, you see what is in your literature, then you innovate, you measure what you have done, and you communicate so you publish yourself on your experiment. One minute. Very good. Wonderful. Joe, do you have any any reflections on the rich arsenal of points that have been made. Thank you so much. And it's, it's, yes, I think I'm just sort of keep it like Benoit sort of trying to be very short. We clearly, we face the same challenges. We've connected and used the good experience we had in the sector and we, the pandemic has actually also provided us so much that we've learned. In terms of the assessment that Benoit has touched upon, there is so much good work on sort of, again, Mihael was sort of touched upon and we've been discussing about this sort of constructive alignment and this sort of opportunity now to shift from the sort of cheating and catching to a much more constructive, much more revisiting how in this sort of world that, as Ruta was saying, we want students to dynamically apply their learning and we want active citizens. We want students who will take ownership of their learning and we'll be able to actually create their path and through that to benefit from abilities from connectedness from all the good that transnational collaboration can offer. But we know that this is easier said than done. And we had a lot that we've learned over the past 14, 14 months. And there was a very good discussion that also Susan asked a question about, we're talking about research-led teaching, very rarely do we talk about teaching-led research and I very much just something that I really goes back to issues that I have very close to my heart that we don't perpetuate boundaries and boundaries between separating where we talk and how we talk about research and where we talk about teaching. We need to do it for the purposes that we are actually connecting learning, improving, but fundamentally I think what I'm hearing from what our discussions and all the work that we've been doing is that our collective goal is to create those dynamic learning communities where of course research comes from co-creating teaching, from coming together and teaching follows joint research and the two are integrated and also in the life of the university which is a very complex ecosystem and Michael was saying earlier that is not only about those sort of career paths but all sorts of other opportunities to engage in with stakeholders outside the academy and so on. So I think I've just gone to close because I ended up being more than one minute of course, so we are in a transition, we hope, we are in a transition period and we hope that one of the colleagues said that soon we will be back with our students back to our campuses and so on, but we are in a transition period anyway so this discussion is really timely and let's continue, I feel that there is so much that we can do by joining our collective power, so I really hope that we will be able to use what we're starting to use the seminars to use those opportunities to really bring collective change. Thank you Jan. So I just really want to then take this opportunity to just thank all the panelists, thank the participants, what we've seen I think really in this panel is just simply how exciting teaching innovation is and I think all the speakers have spoken with real passion and persuasion about the space and I think that's the first really important take-home message that when we convert that excitement into our classrooms and into our examinations, then of course it's also extremely important that that is evaluated in our careers and that this is valued in new ways and I think that there is an insistence that we need to bring clearly to our institutions about this point. I think another really important point has been about the importance of evidence, evidence that we need to take both in terms of from the research on pedagogy into the classroom but also then back and I think one of the things that's really combined all these contributions in my mind has been the insistence really on active learning and really encouraging the students in new ways to reflect on their learning and that is a really interesting and important space to bring together so many of the things that we sometimes think of as binary, the region and the international for instance or the digital and the physical aspects of learning. I can't possibly do justice to all the many points that have been raised here. I do think there is something that really connects the second part of this discussion to the policy agenda, not just because a lot of these issues are of course discussed right now at a European and also at a national level, but again I think it's really important to insist that also at the policy level. When we talk about the strategy for universities, when we think about the European university alliances, that we put the bottom up concerns of our teachers as well as of our research as that we really put that at the heart of these endeavors and they are not top down initiatives and therefore I think we all can once again fully welcome the co-creational aspects of these initiatives and it's important that that strategy will take some time to be formulated. I want to really thank all the speakers for their contributions, the different institutions that they represent I think it's wonderful that we can think together in these ways and I hope that we can continue these conversations also in other contexts. And I really want to finish with the question that I'm from Katja Bröger which unfortunately we haven't been able to respond to given the time pressures and it's a hugely important question about what it is that we're doing as public institutions relying on these private providers very much Michael going back to your point about Zoom and Microsoft, also going back very much to Vanessa de Villes-Antons, early invitation to us to reflect on where the added value of Europe could be in this space and that leads me straight to our next event on the 29th of June, which will feature really representatives from DG employment, from DG EAC, from the Future Learn platform so EdTech, but it also will have representatives of three different university alliances, Utopia and Light and ECIU and it's really focusing very much on microcredits but also on how we engage with technology and it really gives us a chance and as all these other events will do to delve deeper into the issues that we've raised today. And with that I really want to thank you, thank our audience and Katja I'm sorry to leave you with this cliffhanger to this but I hope that you and others will reconnect with us on the 29th of June. Thank you very much indeed, thank you very much Joe for the fantastic paper and we look forward to continuing the discussion. Thank you.