 So while he adjusts the font let me say this is Enrico Zini. He's a member of the new maintainer front desk and a deviant account manager new member Thank you Yeah, NM front desk And this is an open discussion about the NM process and the current status of that. So Given Rico a round of applause for starting this Thanks Hello everyone I am the Okay This is the old it's getting a tradition in that comes to have a Session about a new member process. It started with the AM and M dam FD something else both in Spain and We missed the Nicaragua because none of us was there. I am the only person here That among the the front desk and dam so For any It's which makes it easier if you need to talk to someone about it Come look for me. I am the only person until now Because I wouldn't mind creating new members of the team very soon indeed So you could that week there could be a chance to have more than one person from The new member from desk and that comes this year. It's up to you Okay, so that's what I wanted to do start with a Bit of chatting about Current things to break the ice describe the current status from the things I'll tell you the things that the cabal knows and then tell you what the cabal needs And some more chat in the end So show hands Who has never heard of the W new member process? one Okay Who is Involved in the new member process somehow Okay, is there anyone? Anyone going through the new member process trying to get an account here anyone who just got an account Okay, you just joined I'm not sure I got the question Are you? Have you officially applied to become a Debian developer? Not yet. Okay, but okay Application managers here one two Actually, we need more applicants than application managers now Okay, and we have a former from desk member Yeah, okay, so so the new member process for those who never heard of it is What happened? What what it's the the it's the process about Making people become Debian developers a person applies to become a Debian developer when they have Already experience with the project So it's not about learning how to do Debian work That is what Debian mentors is for or other Debian teams are for but there is a time after one has been contributing for a while that Perhaps we would like to have their opinion in Debian elections and so Or they would like to you know be an official member of the project get a hat and You get mails from Google recruiters every two weeks if you are in the list of Debian or even if you don't want You on that then it's the new member process that decide Okay, you can be a DD. No, you can't be a DD go away Perhaps you can be a DD, but you need to corrupt me with more beer or something like that By the way, I am not corruptible with beer I rather more enjoying wine and cheese Oh, there was free wine and cheese all night That's fantastic True so all those who are application managers How's it going? Right still waiting for new applicants great Nobody has a problem three two one excellent for those who are Dealing with an application manager. There was none Okay, no problems there I Excellent So for those coordinating the whole process instead things are pretty dire Currently so the way the process works is You say you would like to be a Debian developer That can happen after you've done uploads that can happen after you've done any other sort of work in Debian for a long enough time, you know how the community works and So, okay, you say I'd like to be a member an official member of this community Get Okay, and and and so you get some existing Debian developer to advocate you Which is an existing every developer that says well, yes I believe this person has enough knowledge about it that they can be Debian developers right now So once that happens, we have a look to see if the advocate was not drunk at the time and perhaps we would like to see a little bit of See the name of the person somewhere in Debian just Doesn't came out of the blue or if it came out of nowhere Then we would like to have a reason why maybe they were working for NSA and they've done a lot of secrets Debian work that would could not be disclosed. So we can be told Confidentially about these things. So once we are satisfied that One has some experience then we assign an application manager to this person And the application manager has a long chat with the applicant And the chat has several questions. They usually come from a set of templates for convenience, but It's quite free What I'll give you the microphone don't tell the nm. I usually tell the nm I usually tell people where the templates are so they can you know have a look and Yes I really liked when I had an applicant who Was faster in answering question than I was in asking And I asked what the hell is going on and He said that he was bored waiting for an application manager So it took the templates and answered all the questions and it was just copying and pasting and I was like that's cool We've got over the whole thing in in in an afternoon and it was one of the fastest people to get an account But the point that it's not an exam If you think about it Who would give you an exam where you can take your time to answer questions from home with nobody watching you? The internet at your disposal and you can ask people on IRC right The point of the questions is to make sure People had a look at several bits of Debian We don't want to give accounts to people that then have no idea how the community works if you're not interested in becoming a Debian developer, but You would like to know you would like to know how the community works then Get the questions and answer them by yourself, it's a great way to Put put your knowledge to the test and and and explore things that they're really good pointers for exploration Once the application manager is satisfied that a person Should indeed be a Debian developer then they click a button on a website It used to be a lot more work than that But now it's just click a button on a website and I think I deserve a little applause for that Click a button on a website add well fill in a text Take back the applause. You also need to fill in a text area say that You like that person and why but it still takes Yeah, but You click that button and then you say, okay, and now the the front desk and Debian application manager will have a look Front desk will have a look to see if GPG signatures are valid in mails if there are no missing mails if The person has a key that is signed by at least two Debian developers if the key is or at least 4,000 byte long and Some routine checks like that would filter would kind of check the obvious and try to To fill in what's missing or help people get bigger key Something like that Once from desk is happy that there's nothing obviously missing they pass it on to them that reads all the conversation between the application manager and the applicant and Rage the whole conversation and he's like Okay Seems like these people knew what was going on click a button Click a button and then get Text copy text from a text area paste it in mutt and then Sign it in line submit to Debian RT, which will then take care of it So yeah, those are the steps now From desk with time then the new member process got more Tasks for example, we now manage collab mind access on Alioth collab mind is a repository like version control system repository that all Debian developers have commit access to it and Any other person can ask to have commit access on it and they just need one Debian developer to say yes I would like to work with this person on something We also manage that so we get the requests and we need to go into the Alioth g4s interface and click a button to say yes And that's Okay, another thing we do we manage We hand out guest access to Debian machines for people who are not Debian developers So you suppose you maintain a package you are maybe Debian maintainer or just a sponsored Person and the package has a bug in some weird architecture So you ask and you can be given Access to a Debian machine with that architecture so you can just log in and test your package and try to fix the bug We manage that as well We manage people who were developers Before and retired, but then they want to come back So we also deal with that we deal with People that stop existing for the project without saying goodbye Because they forgot or something and then we interact with the Debian MIA missing in action team To well close the accounts or send around of males saying are you still alive? Please say yes, if you don't say yes, then we'll close your account Which happens after one has been dead for the project for like two years and We still ask are you dead? Anyway So we manage a lot of things like that Currently the team is The active part of the team is one person doing from desk Jonathan will share that deserves a big round of applause and from desk also takes care of creating new People who apply and checking that everything is fine and assigning them to an application manager basically they do all the work and Damn does all the rest of the work, which is basically Applying common sense that dam is the person who is trusted by the project and has the responsibility Not to put silly people into Debian Most of the time we get it right And we also have the responsibility not to turn away saying people Which times it's more difficult But so from desk takes care of some many routine bits and dam needs to read the whole discussion and Make a decision I have to say that Because things function really well now it's Very unlikely that some someone it I Don't recall people being turned down in the last stage Because now there are ways to an application manager will realize that someone is not good and well That's a bit Social changes happen so that people are not anymore sort of forced to approve people or it would be a bad social thing to do Which is good So one person in front desk that handles people coming in Assigns them to application managers Checks that all the conversation is fine deals with collab mind taxes deals with guest accounts and Possibly some more I blogged if you go in my blog there is a list of Specifically here Can you put a link to that in the etherpad a link? Okay, sorry. Yes, definitely. I'll put it here and you can move it Okay, I'll I'll take away mine So that's a task of front desk the task of them the routine task. That's a routine task of front desk The routine tasks of them is to read through the whole conversation between application managers and applicants and make a decision Then there's the non routine tasks. I also And I will one from this member one only one active dumb doing routine stuff Which is me. I need to rely. Well, sorry. No, no, no, I can rely on Ganev and me on For Emergencies or If I'm busy and so on but they are busy I also am but I'm the one that I'm the last one to join the team. So and the non routine things can be complicated like controversial issues with Conflict going on in the project sometimes requires them attention Or Well discussing about changing the rules making things better in a way or another I Also maintain an m.debian.org which is the website Coordinating all of it. It used to be the case that front desk members were chosen among application managers in the past it made sense because A front desk member would review the work of application managers However, it doesn't That is not true anymore. Many of these tasks have nothing to do with application managers So yesterday we decided that any Debian developer provided they have some experience with the project and their reasonable people can be a member of front desk and We would like to be able to split some of these tasks and have maybe one person to take care of one of them or two and Other people taking care of others. So the workflow the workload is less It's easy stuff The commitment is not to have Long amounts of time but to be responsive. So maybe it's a case of 20 minutes half an hour every day or two rather than one day a week doing things and And that's from the front desk side to have new dams well One needs to be into for have been into front desk for a while before being done now that is a problem because We currently have only one possible dam candidate which means that Things are fragile I Would like to get Quite a bit well two or three front desk members and See where it goes So that there is a chance of things moving on And the team evolve and and I'd like to be in a team where turnover is possible I am myself. I don't like to do routine tasks that much Reading the conversations is interesting But the way I work I like to get into somewhere where there is a problem try to fix the problem Do some routine tasks for a while to see that the situation really got better and then move on to another problem. I I Am not fixing new problems in the I'm not fixing problems in NM And I haven't been for many months exactly because all my energy is taken by The routine tasks and that I lose a bit of motivation because of that so the team is slowly losing health insanity and We need new blood and souls and the cthulhu references here and So join Arkham Yeah Now in order to one thing To be in front desk you need to hang out in the secret cabal ish IRC channel of doom Where everything is discussed so Front desk member will read Also the discussion between dams for controversial or private issues So there needs to be some level of trust but If you've been DD for a while and Nothing controversial has happened. I guess that's fine Unless you're usually flaming male English in that case perhaps we don't want to have you around But who knows So if you are interested in Taking care of something like that do come and talk to me afterwards Now We are quite okay with application managers, but feel free to become one if you want to try It's an interesting experience. It means you don't need to read the documentation anymore People you can just ask a person and that person will have to find out information for you However, you need to check if the information what? Yeah, provided that you find an applicant then new job for application managers finding new applicants However, you need to check that the answer is correct, which means It's a great way to refresh your knowledge of things. So, yeah, that's fun I don't quite know what happens with why we have lots of free AM's and not many Applicants perhaps the product the whole thing is just healthy An AM Procedure became so much quicker that people get free faster or can handle more applicants But I would need to ask Jonathan about it because I haven't been taking care of that side of it for a while Now there's also need for help with the website maintenance and m.debian.org This is the website and In the bottom of the website it says source code is available you click on available and you get it and You in the source code Berries Berries getting started file which tells you how to Set up the whole thing in your machine There is even a function in the website the dex that exports the full a full dump of the database Which is anonymized so personal details are taken out And that can be used to set up a working database in your machine to test things And the working database will be almost exactly what is on the website except. There's some la la la in Comments about people because well unless you are front desk member in that case you get the whole thing With trust front desk members a lot and that is also a good way after a while you've been in front desk Even just to do a trivial thing like approving collab mind requests Then you have a very good idea about what goes on because you see all other discussions It's a very good way to get more involved with with the new member process and We value ideas From new front desk members just if there's discussion about some controversial issue Maybe don't try to push for your solution too much Because it would make the discussion quite difficult, but still It's a rather Open close the RC channel So I have some small tasks if you the website is written in Django so If you know python and Django it's some Rather simple Django model behind it If you know python and Django and would like to try and hack on it. I do have some small tasks you can try to do and if you can manage to do one of them you can cross the bridge and You know join the team developing on the site work on Do you need to be DD to work on on the site or not? You don't need to be a DD to work on the site You can ask a DD to give you a dump of the database I Trust that DD's wouldn't give dumps to anyone and at least they would know that they give a dump to a person that wouldn't disclose the list of emails of all Debian developers for example, which is pretty much the only sensitive information you get at that point, but still right there private emails Because when you apply you you put which email you want your Debian email forwarded to and that's That's in the LDAP dump if you are a DD, but you don't see it if you're not a DD and I don't have a problem if a non DD would see it but then a DD should take responsibility kind of for it not to give it to random people and Yeah, I have a question about that. Yeah, I know why It seems like it would be better if the DB export simply remove those so then it could be a Completely fine for anyone to download it. Yeah I haven't done a proper audit on what else can be inferred from that dump I've done it a bit in a hurry so Unless that's kind of proper audited. I don't feel like making it public So yeah, anyone can do it, but I would you probably Especially if you are a DD before joining the IRC channel but Who knows honestly? Although if you end up being in the front desk IRC channel doing active positive work With enough common sense to understand what goes on and making good calls Possibly somebody would ask you why not a DD yet And maybe that's a good way to become a DD very fast indeed But Yeah, the website is there the code is there you can get a dump you can run it in your machine I can share my to-do list with you Which basically means also explaining what the stuff I wrote in it actually mean because it's a bit of a mess This is Though Enrico while you're fiddling with your computer and one more question slash suggestion. Yeah, can you can I suggest that you schedule? Both that's even more casual than this for people who want to set up a development instance and quiz you about that like in Penta You mean above for an M website hacking. Yes How many people how many people will be interested in that? One two three four five. That's a lot more than zero seven awesome Yes, consider it scheduled Okay, when is it? Let's anonymize I In my total is they put IRC dumps For people submitting ideas so that I also remember who I need to tell I've actually done it And they would usually go when did I ask you that and I'm like perhaps two years ago. Ah, cool but yeah, this is an example of Multiple exclamation marks are a short sign of a diseased mind Okay, so such Incredible things as when you advocate a Debian Maintainer to be a Debian developer automatically check that you want that person to have a plot right It could be defaults to non-uploading Yeah, that there's a few things to fix like that, which are probably very good or Improved the weekly report that is sent to Debian new member mailing list That sort of things would be really helpful So further discussion about an M. They've been the org delayed to the awesome And then that they've been the org hacking both Coming soon So we can go to the last bit which is Question and answer not quality assurance Brainstorming proposals and more chat questions Well, I have a question so You wanted volunteers for front desk and maybe for application managers. Is that right? Application manager is not that urgent. Okay anything else we you don't need to be an application manager to be in front desk. So yay so front desk and Website hacking so I have a question for everyone then is there anyone in the room who is a Debian developer who's interested in being on The front desk now's a great time to raise your hand higher higher. Come on. Come on. I can see you right there One two The question is how old how long if you have to have been a Debian developer, right? Yes, exactly It used to be the case that in order to Be an application manager you needed to be a new so you needed to be at the DD for at least six months which was Killing everything because you wanted to be an application manager when you just start of the process and you Clearly remember what was going on and the process was a part of your life So we wait six months Well to get you involved in everything else in Debian except the new member process and then we are like would you like to come back? On the other hand That is something from the past when we assumed that people who were Not Debian developer had no experience in Debian now We require people to have experience in Debian before becoming Debian developers. So I would be okay Relaxing six months requirements like that We did not talk about it with the other dams So I would like to run that through the others before saying cool. No problem, but Yeah, okay, and Rico, but you but it's not fair to ask them to reply right now But I would definitely yeah and Ricky, but you asked for the front desk So I was asking back how mature do you have to be as a DD before you can help with the front text people? Yeah, the general idea is that if we ask Six months of experience before being application managers, then we should probably ask two years before being front desk but why should somebody be such an old season developer in order to check that some GPG signature is okay and Click a button on G for Zonaliot, right? There's not much point on it So I would think that wouldn't be a problem, but Okay, five minutes. So again, I've replied basically sanity checks of new managed members stay anyway. So yeah works Sanity check of new member works. They stay anyways. So that's what he's saying So he says as I understand it. It's not really He says we don't need to define waiting time now. So that's gonna sing. There's no need for to find waiting time Okay, cool. Yeah. Okay. So let's talk afterwards I asked who else was interested in being part of front desk Can I get you guys to raise guys and gandor gals to raise your hands and have somebody else write down your login names, please? I'm completely serious. Please do that again. Raise your hands. Raise your hand. You're excited. Who else was there? What's Somebody write down your login name. What's your login name? Okay, great. Who else was there? Yandidi Okay, at least it's in the audio. Okay. Yeah, Daniel Wdg also what Wdg is another username that you should add to your perspective front deskers Okay Wdg. Oh, okay Okay, more questions more ideas for improving things used to be a big one in the past Now it's obviously perfect. Nothing to improve anymore Problems you recently had already asked that before so yes so they Besides getting new people to help What you are saying is that the debut new member process is currently perfect So if not I'm using debut and since 2000 and in the meantime I got the impression that becoming a DD is something really hard and you should think Really well about it before you apply and now I take it as a positive Development that I'm actually encouraged right lie And this was just a remark Maybe some other members of the audience have this idea of well I should really be really good before I start to apply and maybe that's not the case anymore Maybe we should incur or you do encourage. No, no, no, you should be really good before yeah, indeed If you if you are still learning then mentors is the place to go but Because If the NM process is about teaching people then things take ages It should just be about Okay You know your stuff or you know where to find things Cool, you or you don't do things without Knowing what you're doing About knowing what to do it would be a great thing to For new member applicants to get a good idea What is to know your stuff quite well because I've talked to many different people who said yes, of course You should become a DD. You're ready now. There's people who say no you aren't So I think I would be a good thing to have some guidelines To look at just to say okay I can't do it or I cannot until now if it's just about the questions I already answered all the questions and look them up and stuff and that So I think for many people asking themselves. Am I ready? It would be a good thing to have guidelines that Is I would be interested in doing it, but there is a rule that says that if somebody is Ignorant there is no way for them to realize their ignorance Yes, I'm not Pointing this question for overconfident people but to underconfident. Oh, okay You never will get out of the overconfident people and I think An application manager will quickly notice these right because they start the process and all on the people who really asked sorry asked themselves if I am ready will Positive never really come to the conclusion. Yes. I am now good point Help needed also for documentation It's in an appalling state Because the process has changed so much recently that we could just couldn't cope with keeping documentation up to date so That's also volunteers needed How do we deal with that? Right There's some things that a perspective For example, I have no idea What are the tasks of an advocate? so Well, I am quite afraid to ask someone to advocate because I don't know if it's it's just just Saying something or it's something that that that takes actual effort Time over click a button on a web page and Answer to it if one has clicked it too fast I'm afraid time is up, but I will say that anyone who wants to help a documentation in my opinion should show up to the website hack fest Also, yes. Thanks again to Enrico for starting this and everyone for asking great questions. Thank you for coming now clap