 Hi everybody, welcome to Linuxcast, I'm your host Matt. I'm Tyler. I am Steve. I am Josh and I'm totally not a syslo like Steve is. You're watching the video podcast today, Steve looks a little different. Um, not sure what's going on there. Anyways, I think he's been kidnapped and replaced. I'm pretty sure. Anyways, this is the Linuxcast. We talk about Linuxy things. Today we have a fantastic topic for you because it's gonna be awesome. And I promise you that it's just gonna be really, really good. So absolutely no tangents, all that stuff. It's gonna be fantastic. But like we usually do on these things, we're gonna start off with our week in open source, Linux, all that stuff. And Tyler, you get to go first this week. Ooh, cool. So I've been up to a lot. Actually, I've started posting on my YouTube channel. I know. I remembered the password, Wild Stuff. I was able to get in. I had to sneak around a bit on YouTube, you know, post a little bit just here and there. So yeah, I posted a hyperland video. And today I posted a video talking about a nice little new thing that happens with pipe wire when you're using echo cancellation. Me and Steve talked about before the podcast started. But the other thing I've been doing is working a lot on my website. So I no longer have a Gemini capsule. I also don't really use Element or Matrix anymore. Mainly just cause, you know, Element doesn't work as it should anymore for some reason. I looked down that stuff and actually been working on a really nice website. At least I think so. I think I can actually show it off. If I go over here to my website. Everybody go to zany.org right now. Is it really zany.org? Yeah. Yeah. You own zany.org. You own zany.org? That's impressive. Yeah. Cause there's like a lot of Zany's out there. So you can go to zany.org. I've got. I'm surprised he doesn't own all of them. I'm trying to do like kind of a portfolio kind of style website. But I've got a blog where I'll obviously be doing Linux-y stuff. I've got a links page that I actually have not pushed up yet in a gaming page. That's not there. But I've put in a custom 404. I've got a nice sidebar. I've done it all custom myself. I'm not using Qgo or anything to generate it. Not because like I can't use those or it wouldn't make things much simpler. It's just because it is sort of supposed to be a actual portfolio website. So I wanted to show off what I can do with CSS and HTML. So I've been working on this for the past couple of days. And yeah, I like it. I'm almost done. I'm using chat GPT to generate some of my articles. And then I'm going to have to heavily go back over them and revise them. But it's nice to be able to just use it to generate out most of it, go back through, edit it up, and add parts that make sense, and take out parts that don't. Because chat GPT is not that intelligent. But that's going to help me speed up and actually get content up on the website. But it's been nice. It's been a lot of fun. It's all I've been up to. Divo, what you've been up to this week? What have I been up to this week? Shall I start? It was cleaning up the Jedi filth, the KDE, the Arch Jedi filth wrap. Recently, Arch, the Jedi filth over at Arch, decided to rename the KDE packages, adding a five to the name. Not thinking of the consequences this will cause. All the people who have AUR packages installed that have the old package names as dependencies. So we had to clean their mess. I had to recompile and rebuild. Recompile is for the French server. I'll keep that for the French server. Rebuild over 40 packages because of that. That's one thing I was doing. I was cleaning their mess. Another thing I was doing, working on Zero Linux, the KDE spin, because the GNOME spin is done, updated all the extensions. Everything is working on GNOME 45. Everything is Pichi over there. And XFCE didn't do anything there. And they should be marked in history. I have been a distro maintainer for three years. I still had windows on one of my drives. Out of your view. Travesty. Why? Get off my pod. Because I'm kidding. Because I was worried that I might need it for something at some point. I haven't booted it in almost a year now. But it's clear that I don't need it for anything. So today, the day that I went 100% Linux with no Windows machines or drives anywhere to be seen across my house. So out with the filth of the Jedi in with the power of the dark side. So that's what I've been doing on Linux. And other than that, I'm working with someone on a new version of our tool. And this time, 100% Python. Here's that. Yeah, comment. Was that done? That's all I did so far. All right, man. Josh, what you been up to? I've been doing way too much yet again. Because let's see here, I blew up Gen 2 intentionally this time because I'm going to get the OBS video working at all. And I moved to the dark side. I am now an Arch Linux user, by the way. So by the way, I use Arch. And I'm going to be making that joke throughout the entire course of the episode today. Because I use Arch, by the way. Anyways, besides that, I did the Arch installation right. I followed the wiki. I followed the install guide. It didn't work. So I reinstalled Arch. And I installed Arch using the Gen 2 handbook. Because it turns out that a lot of the commands are the same, and it worked. And then I installed a Hyperlion. I installed Sway. I installed River. I basically installed every single way that I could without installing Nome. And then I enabled Steve's repository. I don't think I have anything installed out of Steve's repository because I don't like compiling. I installed the chaotic AUR and immediately removed the chaotic AUR because I realized that half the packages in there are broken to begin with. And then I have already found 16 bug reports in Arch Linux proper because I can't issue bug reports against packages. And I have decided I'm going to spin up my own Arch Linux repository where every single package is recompilation of everything that's already shipping in Arch Linux. But I'm going to have Dash fixed at the end because I'm fixing their goddamn packages again. Josh is going to get banned from somewhere. Just write it down. That's definitely going to happen. All right. So thanks to Darth Vader in the chat and on my Discord. I've been messing around with Xmonad. Again, for the sixth time, every time I tried Xmonad, I'd run away from it screaming and crying. And eventually I'll end up in a corner just with my head between my knees just like, no, why do I do this? But I'm trying it again because I've been prodded. And I still hate Haskell with a passion. Yeah, I said minute, Matt, you're getting bored of style. No, I'm really not. Qtile was like the best thing ever, like the best window manager ever created. Also, Python, you like undercover as are you like undercover as Darth Vader on like socials? No, Darth Vader is his own person. I'm pretty sure I just want to make sure because he's been he's been pimping out Qtile big time lately, especially on my hyperland video. So I just and he's also, you know, complaining about scratch pads, that kind of stuff. So I just got a little suspicious for a second. I actually started started off with his Xmonad config because I was just completely done trying to do my own. And he only uses like nine workspaces. So definitely we're not the same person. True, I didn't even see that. He posted his Xmonad rice on my discord, which it is a beautiful rice. It is a really good, really good rice. He has been posting rice is for all kinds of different things in my discord. He does switch around. Lord Darth Vader is everywhere. It is because he's the most powerful in the dark side. Oh, by the way, I have I have apparently disappointed Darth Vader. By the way, I will I will, of course, remove Arch Linux, which I have installed, by the way, and reinstalled Gentoo when I can figure out how to get things working again on Gentoo. But in the meantime, I'm still using Gentoo on every single other machine, but this one and Darius. Yes, I did try void. It turned out to be a very buggy experience. It has the worst installer ever. Any installer that requires you to choose your own groups is still the dumbest thing. Anyways, that's beside the point. That's what I've been doing is messing around with Xmonad. I don't like it. I'm actually using it right this minute, which is honestly surprising that it's even working. Be honest with you, because my configuration is a mess, because I've been I took most of Darth's config combined it with some Arco Linux is some some of DT stuff is in there. It's it's not good. Also, I've been looking at their their documentation, the Haskell documentation. Yeah, it's just confusing as fuck. It's just like, come on, I like, OK, so with Python, you can do many things in many different ways. But Haskell takes it like 10 times further away from that, where you can do things in many different ways, but they don't combine well and they don't explain it well, why they don't work together well. It's just it's and if you don't understand what you're doing, it's definitely not and it wasn't. It's not even a problem that the language itself is like that. The problem is that X Monad uses it and because it uses it, you can do scratch pads in four different ways. You can do your key bindings in like five different ways. And if you import like easy config, you can't use easy configs with some ways of doing the key bindings because the you know, it's just you can't do it that way. And good luck finding out the reason why if you don't know what the hell you're doing. That's why you need a friend to help you. Or in my case, do literally everything for me. Anyways, that's what I've been doing. I will anybody wants to put bets on whether or not I'm not on X Monad next week. That's not going to be a very good bet. Anyways, that's another video about X Monad. I'm probably not. I said the last one was going to be my last one. The only way I post another one is if I actually understand what I'm doing and figure out that I like it, which I don't I don't see happening like even even a bit. I can't even right now get the damn bar to appear on the right monitor. Whatever. But do you get it? Can you get your monitors to sleep? Yes. Yeah, it works. That works fine. Won't work in hyperland, though. Hyperland will not let the monitors go to sleep for more than a split second. They pop right back on. No, cool. Yeah, that happens with anything that uses D.P.M.S. or whatever it's called. Whenever it uses that, that's not going to work. I don't know why, but I've gotten this point now where hyperland has actually been the only setup that has, I don't know, made me use my computer in a way where, like, when I get up, if I want it, like if I'm not coming back in, like, 15 or 20 minutes at the most, I turn off the computer. And, like, I never used to do that. Like, now I do. Well, you know, you should get yourself one of these. Is that a is that a car remote for your computer? Yes. For his computer. That's the funniest thing ever. OK, OK, my computer is in that room over there. I'm not going to get up every single day, walk into there, just turn my computer on just so I can make it over here. So, yes, I have a remote for my computer. Yes, but it's a fob. It's a fob. And it's made by StarTech. It's only twenty four dollars. You are such nerd. I'm just going to put that out there. You're such nerd. It only works like 30 percent of the time, though. It works 30 percent of the time. Yeah, I think the battery might be a little low. Guys, it would only have been better if he was using the clapper. Let's just. Well, you see, I did get wake up and working on the computer. So, technically, and because I have home assistant here with microphones because you're not messing around with the home assistant wasting, I could set up the clapper so that when I clap, I could, you know, have have home assistant turn my computer on for me. So I could do that. Hey, Siri, turn my computer on. Please, please do that. I used to when I when I was in Ireland, I used to I used to have the Google Home thing, the speaker thing. I got for free with my with my ISP. I used whenever I used to come back from work, I used to say yell, honey, I'm home and my computer would turn on. That's actually kind of cool. If you watch some of the YouTube videos where people have really done up their setups and they can go like they walk in the room like Alexa, turn everything on, like all of a sudden you have like the RGP Wonderland going around in your room. Some people. And when my phone checks my Wi-Fi, it turns my porch light on. Let's see, like in my head when you first said that my first thought was like, well, not my first thought. But what I imagined was you walking home with a woman and just walk in being like, give me one second, honey, I'm home. And she's like, what, like immediately. She's like, what's that? He's got a wife. And then your computer turns on. So yeah, exactly, exactly. OK, that's why I that's why I have been messing around with the Home Assistant voice. It can do that. Yeah. And I chose and I chose that specific command, honey, I'm home to feel like I had someone waiting for me at home because you pair that with the girlfriend that's going to be going around and you're all set. That's dangerous. I mean, that's that's going to how like, or I mean, that's going to end up being how every person who moves out of their parents' house for the first time sets up their computer for now on. They'll just refer to their computer as honey when they walk in the door. This the setup it's required just to get it to work. You had to reroute this, does that and set up a if this if this than that, whatever it was very backwards, but it did work. I really loved it because I didn't want to keep my computer on and pay electricity because in Europe electricity is so damn expensive. I came back from work, honey, I'm home. My computer would turn on. I would I would go to the stove, start cooking something while my computer is loading up and loading all my programs because I told my computer to load all my sessions sessions. So I go immediately to my computer and continue where I left off. It was an awesome experience. It didn't last long because if this then that just decided to disable that functionality. OK, let's go ahead and move on to the main event. So today we're going to have a fight. And we have chosen teams. Josh and I are on the same team, which I know what you're thinking. Definitely not the traditional teams, but that's OK. Josh and I can get along for this here. What we're going to do, guys, knew what what Matt and Josh will be defending. Yes. Anyways, Tyler and Steve are on the other team. So we're going to be having a defend. It's not really defend the indefensible because it really when you're the the indefensible part has to be indefensible for it, but it's in that structure. So we're going to be doing KDE versus Gnome. And first off, before we jump in, do not get into my comment sections telling me how to pronounce Gnome, I will ban you. It's Gnome. Yes. And anybody says, oh, it's not all go look and look it up. It started as an acronym. First word is GNU. So that's what we call it. Anyways, beside the point, Gnome versus Katie and Steve and Tyler are going to be defending KDE. Josh and I will be taking the Gnome thing. It's going to be a fun ride. Yeah. Anyway, so I have questions that it's going that are is going to try to guide us through this, whether or not we actually use the questions or not. It doesn't really matter. I just wanted to make sure I had something to kind of guide the the conversation. But we'll start off not focusing on which is more popular, which desktop environment between these two is the best for brand new users. That's the first question I'm going to start off with. So you have to take your position on the one that you're on the side of the team on. So we're going to start off with the KDE boat. Katie, boys, defend your choice. Why is KDE better for new users? Go. I don't care who goes first. It doesn't matter. Oh, wait, wait, wait, hold on. So this is not like a free form like back and forth. This is going to be like it'll turn into that. I'm just trying to get us started. OK, we've never followed an outline and to save our lives. Tyler, you know this, you've been around long enough to know we've never managed to follow the amount of my outlines. Come on. Just want to make sure. OK, so the question was, why is KDE better for new users? Correct? Yes. OK, well, one, most new users to Linux are probably coming from an ecosystem like Windows. And, you know, the layout of KDE, obviously, is going to be more similar to something they're used to. It's not some like new wave BES, you know? It's not like, you know, some hippie smoking distro. Like, you know, you're getting exactly what you expect. There's a there's a bar at the bottom. It does, you know, bar things that you expect. There's like a start menu that you kind of like are used to. Also, not to mention, I mean, most people probably will enjoy the visual effects that KDE provides you and assuming that an individual has the time and the capability to open up a settings menu and go through it. They can change quite literally anything about KDE and get some very nice visual effects in no time without having to install, you know, six hundred and forty three extensions that forty three of them break the other sixty six. And those sixty six break two other ones. So, yeah, you know, it's kind of a much more ease, easy experience for those who are coming into it. Also, I don't know about about this, Steve. Steve may have to correct me here, but also, like, if you're trying to get a woman, you're probably going to have more chances shown or something like KDE with, you know, some sick, nice lo-fi wallpaper, perhaps even animated, you know, you could do this and she's going to know exactly what you're about, how cool you are, so much drip you got. You're your argument, first of all, you can't say that. Second of all, your argument for KDE is that it's going to get you laid. And that's what it basically boils down to. No, no, no, that's just one point. See, this is the problem. This is the problem. You know, the people who want to defend the genome aren't willing to just listen to a simple list of things. I've already given you multiple things. The last one on the list was that your chances of getting laid increased dramatically by using KDE. And it's just a known scientific. I mean, there's been studies on this, man. Like, we can't debate it. See, I can pull up Harvard studies on this. We gave Steve so much time for the things he said last time. And it turns out Steve wasn't the problem. It was Tyler all along. Steve, you're the KDE guy, really, aren't you? Why do you think KDE is the best for new users? KDE is the best for new users because it doesn't hold you back. Customization gives you the freedom, gives you the power. It's importantly the power to do whatever you want without judging you, without telling you, no, you shouldn't do this. No, you shouldn't do that. No, this is not the way you do this. No, it's no. KDE people welcome their input. The KDE people welcome you with an open arm. That's why KDE is way better for new users because if they and it doesn't hold their hand, it just just allows you to customize it to your heart's content. You can mix GTK with QT, can mix and match to whatever you want. This is the freedom, freedom. And as Wallace said, freedom is KDE is why it's wonderful for new new users. It's a good learning curve. It's a good learning. It's a good place to start learning. Gosh, do you want to take the rebuttal or do you want me to? I am definitely going to take the rebuttal because I'm on team gnome here, first of all, just for clarification for everybody. I'm on team gnome, which out of the box, my desktop environment looks prettier than yours. Out of the box, it functions more cleanly than yours on both X and Wayland. It works even better on Wayland than KDE does, by the way. And, you know, the app ecosystem is more tightly integrated and every single gnome specific, every single gnome application looks better and known than every single KDE application looks in KDE. And I can dynamically switch between a light theme and a dark theme without having to reload my entire user session. And I can reload as many times and as quickly and as repetitively as I want because when you're flipping KDE between that breeze theme and that breeze dark theme, you can actually crash K1. Now, when we're talking about freedom, if we want to talk about freedom, I didn't know how hard this was going to be for me. And if we want to talk freedom, we have to remember that only one of the two desktop environments is actually a free software foundation endorsed. And that is gnome because gnome uses GTK, which is free and open source, unlike QT. Can I, like, am I not supposed to say anything? Like, does he get this full time? No, you can argue back, but yeah, actually, you go first before I say my thing. Go ahead. OK, so, so let me get, let me do the math thing. OK, so your point is that, you know, you can dynamically and instantly switch between the two themes you're allowed to use. Oh, that's nice. That's a great argument. You can, you can, but you're not supposed to. You just literally tell him not to. Yeah, yeah, like, look, like, look, again, this goes back to Katie Eve and Chilldog. All right, like, sure. Sure, you've got to reload some stuff, but the themes are better. They give you access to more of them. And also they don't have developers that are like, you know, please, please don't make your system look exactly how you like it where we know better. Come on. Well, actually, if you go to stop theming my app or stop theming my app or whatever that website is, that says that's just for distribution maintainers on Nome, the user, the user experience on Nome is actually much more flexible than it actually is on Katie Eve, believe it or not, because you have access to extensions and these extensions can dynamically load and completely change your entire user experience on your desktop environment with just a single click of a button and wait, hold on. And you don't have to toggle like 30 plus different different settings and an obscure settings manager. Correct me if I'm wrong, but does not good. No, tell you to please not use extensions. Yes, they actually don't say that. OK, look, just because they imply it. They heavily imply it. But they actually let you post extensions. In fact, extensions.nome.org is an official Nome project. If they didn't want you using extensions, why would they not host it? That's probably one dude at Genome that everyone else there hates. No, actually, there's like 17 different people maintaining it. That's good. Like one guy in the closet just doing the code for the extensions. I can just imagine now. I'm sorry. All right. So my argument for why Genome is better for new users boils down to some of what Josh said. But really, it also why you're having a fiery hot passion with it. Continue. Yes. Get off my body. Genome is better for new users. Just to put it simply is that it's simple. It is way simpler than KDE. If you open up the settings settings application in any version of Genome, whether it's Ubuntu or Fedora or whatever, you're going to have the same experience and it's all reasonably laid out. You don't have to worry about searching for every single little possible change that you can make because there's nothing it doesn't need to be that complicated. Do you want to change your wallpaper? You can go find and change your wallpaper from right there. And you don't have to go hunting for it. You don't have to deal with and you don't have to figure out what the difference between a global theme is, what a color is, where those things are actually applied. What's a plasma theme versus a global theme? You don't have to mess around with the fact that plasmas built in theme store in their settings panel almost constantly has network issues and has for 10 years. I don't know if a single plasma user who has never seen the well, we can't load the themes right now because we're having a network issue of some kind that happens all the damn time. Well, you want to know, it doesn't have themes. OK, not really. And the two that it does have, they're there. You just use them. You want light, you got light. You want dark, you got dark. What else do you need? It's definitely the best thing. I mean, seriously, who needs seriously colors? Black and white is definitely the only two possibly could ever need. And you can change the wallpaper. You you can do more than just black and white on them, too. The gradient application, which you may or may not have heard of before, actually is no longer a hack. They're actually they're actually they actually have official API hooks that they can use on them now to to set whatever color you want your desktop to be. You know what? I love this because you boys are going to be surprised by this. But I actually completely agree with all of this. But let me just reframe it for you. OK. GNOME is simple. It's made for simple people, man. OK. If you don't want to have to deal with a whole bunch of options and, you know, the freedom to change things and, you know, think independently, then GNOME is definitely for you. OK. Because in Katie, sure, yes, it's it's more complex. Things can potentially break. You might have to learn what the definitions of two different words or phrases are. I understand it's a lot. But if you're seeking freedom and independence, Katie is where you'll go. I think I can call GNOME users stupid. I think you just called us stupid. I think how dare you? Well, I mean, the title for this podcast is second year. Did have you not said the past few weeks that I'm apparently an insight and encyclopedia? Do you not realize that I've never used Katie, the Katie desktop environment until last year prior to that and messing on window managers? I've been exclusively on GNOME for over 12 years because GNOME actually works. Every single release, every single button on GNOME works. You cannot say that about Katie. Well, when you're trying new things, you add buttons. And sometimes the buttons don't function properly. Did when you're pushing the envelope, things break, dog. It happens. Steve, what are you going to say? OK, thank you. I just wanted to say 80 is for the sith. GNOME is for the peasant Jedi, who are prisoners of their own rules and their own artificial weaknesses and political stuff. No, you need freedom and freedom sometimes brings chaos, but chaos is good. Chaos is for the strong. Peace and rules are for the weak. That's why GNOME exists. It's for the weak who want to follow rules, who want to follow everything by the book. OK, and it's it. Let me finish. No, no, no, I'm stopping you right here because GNOME has gesture support and it actually works. So does it. It actually works. It's more. It's much more mature than Katie's. No, it works on blacks and Wayland. So you're making sure a Jedi piece of crap, you know, using the force. There's also code. There's also code for HDR support and future versions of GNOME that Katie doesn't even have. So when you're telling me that Katie gets wonderful new features and GNOME doesn't, that's wrong. Everybody gets new features, as you call them, my young pitiful Padawan. All I'm saying is that Katie gets the features first, but GNOME copies. GNOME copy because ADE comes with them first. ADE gives you much better things than GNOME. GNOME is locked down, is it puts you in a jail kind of a jail, whereas you have it's going to be always going around talking about freedom. With freedom comes chaos, but chaos is good. And I will stand by that. Don't make me use this on you. Now, look, look, boys, I didn't want to have to do this, but now that we're in the kind of like free freeform section, I just I just want to go ahead and show you this. OK, bring this to people's attention and give me one second because my desktop is not being updated. And I just got to select it again. There we go. So come on. This right here is the woman who runs GNOME. OK, so I just I just want y'all to know she's, you know, a shaman, apparently. She's in a tarot card, it's a whole bunch of other stuff. She's real interesting lady. And I mean, come on, man, you got to have some like least, you know. OK, I will I actually didn't want to touch on the topic of Holly million because, you know, I have been I have been raised up by several GNOME members for being a plebian when I questioned her credibility. But you see, Holly million is actually actually has quite an excessive background in running nonprofits and the position that she's being hired hired into or selected for has nothing to do with software. You said, wait, hold on, hold on, or not, you said, but I thought she was like the executive director. Yeah, the executive director does nothing with software. Well, what is the role? What her job is to sell GNOME. How can she sell GNOME if she doesn't know what it's made? No, nothing about it and it doesn't know coding, doesn't know software. It doesn't. It's like asking it's like asking a car salesman or a car salesman, a doctor sell something. Well, no, because I mean, a car salesman doesn't have to know about, you know, the details of a car and stuff like that. So no, I get her being able to sell it. That's that's fine. But my question would did be why in the hell are we calling sales positions executive directors? I mean, that means you're not an executive and you definitely don't direct nothing. So what the heck is that title? First of all, when you're filing tax status by the US government, only cares who the stakeholder is. They don't care what positions are. So your job title is effectively meaningless, believe it or not. So that means you could be a Martian for all they care. So yeah, you my official job title is lead director of Bullshit Opinions. That is my official job title at my company that I run. So the job means brilliant, nothing title. But see, let's see that job title is actually accurate, though. See, like, like that's the problem. Like I need a job like you shouldn't have a job title that that matches the description of your job, not at all. Like she's she's directing, she's directing the business of Gnome. That's what she's directing. Yeah, that that. So yeah, that's literally. I think what some people forget is just because it's a nonprofit, doesn't mean that there aren't, you know, the things that go into running a business. You know, they bring in a lot of money, you know, that's got to go to conferences. You got to talk to people. That's why she's an executive director. I think they probably thought it was. I don't know. They probably thought it was less pretentious than CEO or, you know, whatever. Let's be honest. Do you want your salesperson to be a shaman? Is is is that like, I mean, you're in America, where have been presidents that have been TV stars? So TV stars is a little bit different than like, by the way, on the weekends, I like to take a shit ton of mushrooms. We're not going to this. It's not absolutely not as much as I'm going to get to. I will shut it down or whatever. OK, moving on to the next question, we because first off, I'm with Nick at the Linux experiment. Who cares if she's a shaman? I don't particularly care. I don't like I don't care. I mean, I don't care either. Like, I'm totally fine with it. Maybe just say it's weird because everything goes on. No, Tyler, Tyler, Tyler, I'm going to say one thing. She's a shaman. She's directing the business of, you know, she's taking mushrooms. She's going to take, you know, down with her. So let's wait, baby. Let's wait and see her do that. By your guys's argument, by your guys's argument, that situation would just make him better because it would bring in a whole bunch of new crazy features. Well, she probably is doing some black magic, too. So, you know, you never know. But like, also, do you want to be on the side of the team using black magic? Probably not. Sure. Somewhere on the line, we were just incredibly racist. So we apologize for that. Anyways, let's go ahead and move on to my next question, because I think we burned through the last one. OK, so is let me see if I can can phrase this the correct way because the way I have it written is dumb. Defend this statement. When it comes to customization, more is either better or worse. OK, so depending on which team you're on, you know which side you're supposed to take. So why is customization the best if you're on the KD side? Why is customization a little bit locked away when it comes on the genome side? So because the KD fellows got to go first last time, we get to go first this time, Josh. So, Josh, why is customization the way it is on GNOME? OK, I'll be right back, guys. So go ahead. If we're going to be talking about customization and GNOME, I'm going to argue that customization is a good thing. However, metered customization is better because GNOME adds more and more features very steadily because they want everything to actually work. And everything that gets added into GNOME has to go through the GNOME human interface guidelines, which is a document that they have that you can actually go and read that details everything that they want GNOME to be able to do. And they they appeal, they abide by that. And simplicity is key. So when they introduce a new feature, yes, us GNOME guys aren't going to make a big deal about it because it's a brand new feature for our desktop environment. We like new, new shiny things, but it's very intentionally done. Very, very intentionally done because they want to do it right the first time. How many times has the clock app lit been rewritten for plasma? How many times do you know, Tyler? I know to get it right. It's perfect, dude. And also, I'm sorry I was paying attention, but I was also kind of distracted because people over on your side of GNOME, we got one undercover, you know, on on your side, some spy in chat saying, as someone who uses both KDE and GNOME, they're both good. It boils down to the user, you know, that typical line and then arguing about what's better is actually the lowest IQ you take, dude. I'm sorry, we're doing a show about it. I cannot believe this. For one, someone someone thinking for a second that there might actually be no sarcasm in what we're doing, and two, also, I cannot believe you're sending spies over to our side. I think they missed the beginning where it says defend the indefensible. First of all, every single person that works for GNOME project is a volunteer. So he volunteered and he's spying for us. We didn't even have to tell him to do it. That's worse, dude, see. Which has a foundation that hires and contracts people. OK, we'll see. We pay people. We provide jobs and opportunities. And also, again, we're chill. We don't send spies, like, you know, like, essentially, GNOME are the uptights and then like KDE is the like stoners who are like to do whatever you want. Who the hell cares? It's all good. Obviously, why a vibe with them? You know, you guys just don't get it. It's OK. It's fine. But it's just it kind of ridiculous that we're even having to have this argument when it comes to customization. This is me getting us back on track again. Customization isn't bad when it comes in small packages. Like just like Josh said, when you want to customize something, you want to be able to customize it in such a way that ensures that it doesn't automatically conflict with some other random setting that somewhere in the settings panel that nobody's ever used before and hasn't been maintained in the last 15 years. So if I turn on something in the settings and it just breaks Kaywin for no reason because we all know Kaywin always crashes. Whenever you change a setting, it always does. We all know that. And GNOME, you change a setting and you've done your customization and it just works and continue on doing the work you use because at the end of the day, GNOME is a tool, not a mechanism for showing off your sexy desktop on Unix porn. Can I say something? Yeah, your turn, Steve. Go ahead. OK. It's having a lot of freedom of customization allows you to express your own pressing yourself. We want you to be our drone to do as we do. You follow what what we tell you to do. And that's it. On the KDE side, my colleague, my esteemed colleague here put it the best way possible with just a bunch of stoners that don't care what you do with your system. Do whatever you want. And like GNOME, it's our system. You do with it. What we tell you to do with it. It came from Mac OS, so they're copying. Sorry, not came. I think they're copying Mac OS. So we let our minions roam free to whatever you want, shape it or however you wish, make it look sexy, make it look artistic, create art, create wonder, not walk like a robot following whatever is written and nothing else. It's an it's a tool of expression. That's why it's good to have customization. You don't have customization. How are you going to express yourself with visual? No way to do that. Whenever I hear the KDE guys talk about freedom and customize whatever you want, all I think of is anarchy. Like, yeah, you can do whatever you want, but someone's murdering your dog. Anarchy without as they as they as it's said without without good, there's no evil without evil, there's no good. We need both. So I will say I will finish my discussion and the rest of the podcast will be in your guy's hand. I'm going to say this takes two to tango. We need GNOME. We need KDE to exist, but not co exist. Just exist evil and the good evil being known, good being KDE. We need both to to exist for stability to for, I mean, for for everything to be good peace. With that, I leave the floor to you. Crazy, you call this crazy, rude. Well, I do feel like I do crazy because Tyler's one defending KDE, which there is no defending KDE. And if you want to talk about like the freedom, freedoms that KDE offers, did you what does it take to remove KDE from a system? Like, because he would ever do that, right? You know, I know one reason to remove KDE. Let's just say that you decide that you're going to switch to window manager thing. And, you know, you decide I want to try this minimal thing that I keep seeing people talk about on Linux and how you commit on how minimal you can make Linux. So let's just start removing packages. Let's remove KDE. I don't need that anymore. I'm going to live in the TTY rest of my life. I'm sorry. I want to do that. I I it's like I'm being pulled into a dimension I don't understand what would you remove. OK, Nome gives you the freedom to to completely remove Nome. You can even do it from Nome software, where you just remove Nome and GDM. Yeah, and Linux allows you to delete your entire root directory. But you don't do that, do you? I mean, that's the. I've done it before. If your friends jumped off a cliff, would you follow? I mean, that's the same thing. OK, next next next question. My desktop environment has the better applications to a false. Yes, it does. So because the guys went first last time, Steve, why does KDE have the best applications? Does not. I cannot defend that. What the hell, man? All right. All right. Well, that was the football guy catching the pass and running the opposite direction. My minion, my my fellow minion is it is indefensible. I'm sorry, y'all. This happens to him sometimes. Sometimes he gets a little broken. Let me just let me just repair what he's what he's saying here. I got to do this again. So this right here is Kate and live, you know, it looks beautiful. You know, this is a custom Dracula theme. It looks he doesn't really think weight. What the? You can tell. They haven't even been using can and live right now, because I see nothing going on in can and live, which means I spending more time writing his desktop than he is actually doing anything productive. Wait, I'm sorry. So am I supposed to open up an actual project? You know what, boys? I've been I've been meaning to add a video. I'll do it live right now if you put me to the test. OK, I don't know why I accidentally created a folder. He doesn't even know how to use it. There's too many buttons. I'm telling you. Oh, dude. Oh, I'll have to go get my my song to import for my outro. I'll do it. Hold on. Where's the videos? And the people watching video are like, this is really small. If I know that they're going to be props, I would have made, you know, individual. Like, please, please, my forgive, forgive my my overzealous minion here. You forget that there's something called a that gnome has over us. It's us at is the ecosystem. We don't have an ecosystem. We are working on it. It will be better than GNOME. No, our ecosystem that we have now is better than. I'll know what you're talking about. All right. Argue why, Tyler, where's where's GNOME's video editor, dog? That's what I want to know. Wait, what? It's called to say, Titty. No, Titty. Damn it. We were supposed to be adult on this damn podcast. We got trouble last time. I didn't say I didn't say anything. I know it's not even Steve. You were right. It's not you, man. It's Tyler. Well, I mean, I don't even think I'm saying anything. Well, it's called you said it. It's called PTIV. P-I-T-I-V-I. Yeah. OK. Never heard of it. Who uses it? I think he's making our argument for us, Josh, because you want to know what? GNOME has so many applications. You could use. Oregon, look at them all. There is a lot more there than what's on Katie's page. They have like a there are. There are four video editors for GNOME. We we have we have better apps coming. They are in training. They are still young. Are already exist. When they have no one knows about them. When they grow, when hours will grow, they will put yours to shame. And they'll be forgotten as instantly as as hours. They'll be forgotten. They'll be forgotten just like they are now. I mean, the GNOME apps also have sensible names because, you know, our music player is called music. Our video. Excuse me. Our manager is called Files. It's got it's got apps. So you don't have to learn what you don't have to learn what when you does. You don't have to learn what console is. You just told me their video editor's name and I thought it had something to do with, you know, to be fair, my GNOME projects. We had the GNOME project is very focused. They don't need a video editor because they don't have to have one. So what you mean to say is you just don't don't have one. No, so it's so it's it's community maintained. And you know what, it it works. It works more reliably than can live. I can tell you that much. I doubt it. I doubt it. Why do I have to be the voice of reason? Because you're the old man. Steve, have you used P not that word? Tivvy, what P? Tivvy, Tivvy, Pivvy. Sure. Yeah, we'll call it Pivvy, Pivvy, whatever you want to call it. You still have a lot to learn, my young one. It's not a great video editor. It's a basic video editor. Not not advanced as Kate in life. We have the higher ground there and everywhere else. So they have a better ecosystem. Beat them up, Steve. There are four of us that have edited videos before. And I'll be honest with you, most of my video edits are really just basic cuts. Yeah, that's all you can do. No, Tivvy. Again, all right. Look, I'm sorry. I can replicate the last tiny video with the Tivvy. I'll send you the raw file, dude. OK, we target we target professionals. They target the willy-nilly stupid. Now, look, I mean, I wouldn't I wouldn't outright call call, you know, GNOME stupid. That's that's not going to know. I'm not calling GNOME stupid. I was calling GNOME users stupid. No, no, I am call. I'm calling there with this video editor. They're targeting the people who just do cuts. We're targeting everyone. That's yeah. Well, I mean, see, like, that's that's the point. Like, again, this is not to be degrading or anything, but GNOME is for simple people. Like, you know, like maybe not simple people, but some, you know, people with simple needs, I guess, is the better way of putting it. You know, that's your target audience, KDE. It's fair. You know, it's just there for people who want to, you know, do a little bit more, you know, make their computer a little bit more their own. You know, it's there if you just kind of want to get into a browser real quick. OK, well, I'm that that was a fact. Maybe Lotto's from Office 365. You know, I don't know what the difference is, but let me hit my super key and type in web and then because I know that web is like at a gateway to like the worldwide web, which will lead me to the internet. Yeah. And in contrast, my browser was Harvard before any other browser in existence. You just compare that to KDE where you have to type E type in web. You're going to look, what are the fuck is conquer, you know? And how do you spell it? You know, what is conquer? What is angel fish? What is the other one that they got nowadays? I can't remember it. That was a fucking. Yeah, yeah, you guys just continually prove my point. Like, I know learning names is difficult. Get it. See, the thing is, I'm having way too much fun with this. That was the whole point of everyone. Steve, guys, I hope everyone in chat understands I'm joking. Guys, I'm just going to say this about the name when it comes to naming our application. We name our applications in such a way that it's decorative because we are a decorative desktop environment. We decorate our names, not with the boring web, photos, video, music. Now, Amarok, Alphen, Gwenview, wonderful name, creative name. We are a creative desktop environment for the creative out there, for everyone, creatives and other, not for not for grandma, grandpa, great, great, great, great grandma. He's not being a just he's just being an asshole. I'm not being a just I do apologize. I don't need to sound ages. I'm just saying trying to describe it the best I can. Everyone knows that I'm the ageist one on here. Anyway, Steve, I need to counter you. Hold on, Tyler. I need to counter Steve here because developers use no. Noam has the best support for development because noam has this wonderful thing called dynamic workspaces. They're dynamically generated when you need them. KDE doesn't even have workspaces enabled by default. Instead, you brought it up because they also don't even have workspaces enabled for like multiple monitors by default, but continue. Yeah. No, because you don't need you don't need multiple workspaces on your secondary monitors. You don't because I'm sorry, I'm going to have to break character here for a second. And say, yeah, you do. I couldn't let that one pass. Matt, you're you're a very weird use case. You got like 30 workspaces on each screen. True. And you got one and you got like seven windows open on every single one of them. So that's how many scratch pads. More than one. All right. So just let me put this out there. The reason why GNOME's ecosystem is better isn't because of the breadth of software that has available because we all know that it's not always quantity that rules its quality. The quality of GNOME applications with a few exceptions. We can look at Kate in live and say, yeah, you know, that's a better video editor. Fine. Congratulations, Katie. You've won one, but almost across the board. When it comes to UI simplicity, are we talking in Star Trek? No, when it comes when it comes to simplicity and user friendliness, looking at the GNOME breadth of applications, almost all of them win. If you look at, you know, let's just say, for example, I don't even know if it's a GNOME application or not. Rhythm Box has been around for a very long time. It's, you know, it's a GTK application, works and looks wonderfully in GNOME. It's by far the best music player on Linux. Like it's not even close. And what do you use on your system? Again, is that Kate? Do you? Do you? We're not talking about me. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, excuse me. I'm sorry, man. You can't even, you can't, you're not even. Yeah, but I'm using Kate live. Like, come on now. Like, I don't know yet. That's why. I mean, I mean, it's perfectly fine. And I would use it if I was more into GTK stuff. I'm just put that out there. The only reason I chose Kate is because I already had all the plasma stuff installed on my system and didn't want to install a whole bunch of dependencies for GNOME. It's true, whatever. It's completely broke characters. Anyway, we're just like this personal. Damn it, Tyler, you piece of shit. Since you're raising Kate, I'm going to raise you builder, which, you know, GNOME builder is not just for making GNOME applications, believe it or not, it can do everything, literally everything, because it is a true dynamic dynamic text editor that you can turn that is already out of the box and IDE for C for C development. But there are plugins available for everything else across the board. And well, I mean, that is it has built in. It has built in error processing on like Kate, which means that when you compile, no, will not only give you the compiler output, but it will highlight all of the all of the warnings and bugs and also link to documentation as to what the cause of those errors were. That is true. That is true. But can we also like maybe point out to people that they're also going to have to spend the first 10 minutes of their life with it to make it look like not yet? But should we tell them that or are we going to leave that out? Or do I have to raise the fact that when you install KDE, you have to spend like the first day and a half customizing KDE so that it actually looks decent before you even start doing anything. Also, it requires so not true. It also requires more dependencies than Haskell and Python combined. I mean, look, sure, if you have dyslexia, it might take you a full day to get through the whole settings panel. Assuming you don't, you'll be fine. I am going to be the voice of reason one more time. This battle, the application and the ecosystem, you know, wins that one, but we win the rest of the we win the war. We win the war. They will win the war. You just wait. We don't even lose battles, dog. Even when we come close, we still win. I mean, we weren't even going to talk about this, but distros predominantly use GNOME, so you fuckers have lost. I mean, what is the default desktop environment on Fedora? It's known. What is the default desktop environment on Ubuntu? It's known. What is the default desktop environment on OpenSUSA? Jokes on you, it doesn't have one. So wait, hold on. Your your point there being that people choose it a lot. I'm telling you, GNOME has already won. It is too late. Oh, but see, it hasn't won just because it's actually, like, you know, a default for a lot of distros that are put out there for new Linux users. Sure, you win there, but in the whole game. No, because those new users after they use it for six months and they're like, I don't know. I want to I want to make stuff look purple here. They're going to go, oh, yeah, that's right. I got to go to something like KDE. Oh, they just they're going to go to KDE. How to turn known purple and then they discover gradients and then they they install gradients and they they they've looked through the drop-down menus and go like, oh, they already have a built-in purple theme. Click. Maybe. Why? Their horses is not purple. Well, maybe, maybe, if that's the first thing they do, it's fine. But what happens when they install their first extension and literally the sun explodes inside of their computer? That doesn't happen. What happens? Oh, it does happen. It does. I'm sorry. There's a guy in the in the chat named Leroy Jenkins. I'm they can't just one you just won the chat. I'm sorry. All right. All right. All right. Just go ahead, Steve. One last one last one last word. I'm going to answer Morphe in the chat. I'm not a mousepad user. I'm a natural born Kate user, as it should be on Katie. That also had that also paid for sublime text. True. Well, I mean, it was interesting. Like, even I was interesting for the it was interesting for the month that I used it, but my license expired. Well, I mean, at least his parents raised him right. And he ended up using Kate. I mean, you can't blame them there. I mean, y'all, y'all two were clearly raised. I mean, to be fair, I mean, I'm sure they're lovely heathens. But, you know, we're all secretly vimeers users. That is true. That is true. So I don't really use this stuff. I use I use nano only to edit the off my podcast. Look, I was going to say this. I'm sorry, but there are many things that I can put up with. Emacs users, GNOME users, Katie users. You're all fine in my books. But if you use nano, get off my podcast. I don't even have nano install on my system. You actually do you have Pico installed? No. Are you sure? Wait, what is the Pico? I'm almost 100 percent positive that get that arch installs that by default. Yeah, but I read you removed it. Which punishment? What happens if you need it? Anyways, one last question on this. And then we can move on to the thing is I'm going to give everybody just two minutes. You and you can free form your argument over why people should use your desktop environment. The one that you're representing. And we don't need two minutes. And I go first because I have a very good point for my I'm just giving you two minutes because I don't want you to go over the two minutes. Same thing with me, right? Everybody gets the same. So Josh, yes, you can go first. OK, so let's just say that you're installing Linux for the first time. You already know that your operating system is going to be different. You install KDE. What's it look like by default? How does it act like default? It acts very similar to Microsoft Windows. So, no, you should not be installing KDE. First, instead, you should be installing Nome because Nome looks sexier out of the box because, you know, it's awesome. And it is so smooth. It is so great unless you're using a video card. But that's besides the point. Now, Nome also functions differently because you're using a different operating system. You need that additional reminder that, hey, this is a very unique experience. So I want everything to be about this unique because I don't want to fall into my Windows loving paradigms. OK, Steve, you can go next. OK, you need to use out of the box. You need to use KDE because who wants to be in a prison? You want to be in a prison or you want to you want to have freedom? You don't over prison. OK. That's why you use KDE. Tyler, your final thoughts. Look, I think most people are out there are intelligent and, you know, individuals. If you want something that I don't know, you can use customize and you can read, you know, a settings panel. You should probably go with KDE. Now, if you struggle with that, yes, Gnome will definitely tailor to you. But if not, you should be able to change things. You should probably have a system that you're used to and you can convert over to Linux with, you know, the least amount of issues possible. And also, don't forget, you can actually rice KDE and then boost your ego by posting it on something like Unix porn on Reddit. And that's just something you cannot do on Gnome. If you rice Gnome and share it, maybe you'll have two people say, cool, KDE, completely different. So if you need an ego boost, come on over to KDE, definitely for you. And I'll go ahead and finish this off with just this simple statement. I have been over the top this entire time prepping and, you know, pimping out KDE. I do want to end this by saying I don't use KDE at all. I don't have the highest opinions of it personally. But this has been the most fun. I've had a long time to absolutely defend it. Super hardcore. So, yeah, you're not supposed to tell them that you're not using what you're defending, man. You ruin it. All right. This is the end, but still at the same time. I think I've done a dang good job. All right. So let's see here. Let's see here on my pine fun. I'm using Gnome on my laptop. I'm using Gnome on my other laptop. I'm using Gnome on my desktop system. I'm actually using Gnome right now. I have Gnome on my desktop back there and Gnome on my laptop. Don't use it, but. All right. So. But but my so defend for my reasons why you should use Gnome is quite simple. If you want to get work done, you use Gnome. If you want to spend your time tweaking and ricing and messing around with settings and spending all of your time in the settings panel trying to get the thing to look just right, then you can use KDE. You'll waste all of your time. You'll never get anything done. But if you want to be a productive member of society and get use your computer as a tool to be productive and boring. If you want to be a productive member of society and actually use your computer as the tool, it was meant to be. Gnome is the best desktop environment for you. It's also simple and easy to use. And contrary to popular belief, as we've talked about in this podcast a lot today, it's very customizable if you choose to do so. But it's not shoved in your face like on plasma. So, yeah, that is the end of the fight. Who won in the in the comment section below in the chat. If you're watching live winner, shut up, Steve. There's always winners. Don't tell them this. Anyways, in the comment section below, who do you think won the argument? Not necessarily who you think is best. We just wanted to hear from you. Did Steve and Tyler win the argument? Or was it Josh and I won the argument? We would like to know in the comment section below or in the chat. Let us know. So moving on to the thingies of the week. Tyler, you again get to go first. Oh, awesome. So my thingie of the week is actually quite simple. It's my VMRC. OK, my custom VMRC. You can find it in my files. OK, I've got a website. The link site will be up later on today. But I mean, any of my videos on my channel will have a link to my files. You can go there and I got distracted by chat. I literally have no idea what I was saying. I literally saw something and it wiped my memory. You were talking about your VMRC. Yeah, but yeah, so you can go to my dot files, find my VMRC there. And my VMRC, it's I've been doing a lot with HTML and CSS and the code completion. And I don't know the Dracula theming that I've got in it. It's very easy on the eyes. And I've been doing a lot with my website. So all in there. So definitely go check it out if you like don't already have a custom VMRC or want to like maybe see if you could add something for mine or just see what what I'm doing differently. Very good. All right. Oh, also, by the way, in the comments, vote for me. I clearly won me and Steve brought home the dub. Don't forget, you know, mention your favorite thing that me and Steve said and why you voted for us. Because, you know, the real brothers will say it. Just saying just to let you know, Tyler, so far I've seen more KDE one than, you know, one. The chat. Yeah, it's it's a travesty. It's saying how this is my podcast. You should all be voting for me. All right. No, no, I mean, you did good, brother. But Steve, you're thinking of the week, please. I also stopped pimping for votes, not you, Tyler. Good. Well, I think you have the week is. Sorry, my thing of the week is this a service, a web service called distroC. It's a wonderful service because they reply to you right back. The guy who runs it. So it's a service that that has a ton of distributions that you can test online in your browser before you download. And they have zero Linux on there. Yes, they do. And soon they will have the GNOME and XSE spins. I sent it to them waiting for a reply from them because Josh requested it, though. But they have up to four hundred so far and not so four hundred different ones. It's all distros with all their spins. A lot of distros with all their spins. That makes it. They also have to also have to. And the performance on because there was a website before that they replace by their the performance on their site. And if you log in, if you log in with your Google account on their website, you can access the live environment with Internet Connect. If you don't log in, you can access the live environment but without an internet connection. Not that you can do much on on a live environment because it's limited on space. And there's no partitions to install to or even if you launch the installer, it's not going to detect any partitions. It's just for testing purposes only if you want to test before you download. So test before you buy kind of thing. It's wonderful. It's very quick. If there's a lot of traffic on it, it tends to slow down a little bit. It's natural. But if there's not a lot of traffic, it's super quick, super fast. And you can play around with it. Zero Linux is on there. There's four hundred. So go test out. Have fun. If for distribution, see which one suits your needs best. That's the point of a live environment anyway. But that's the there. If you like it, download it. The only thing I noticed that I don't like is there's no links to each distro's website. It's just a distro tested. And that's it. No links. There's no socials. There's nothing. Oh, I need to talk to the guy over there to see if he can add links. But I'm adding I added on my website a link to test zero on my website. But anyway, it's a wonderful service. Go test. Enjoy. All right, Josh, you're thinking of the week, please. My thinking of the week is actually called NGNX. So if you go to NGNX.com, that is my web server of choice. And I've been delving into the documentation of it quite a bit lately. As you know, I decided I'm going to attempt to learn some NGNX because I want to do some NGNX magic of, you know, sending traffic wherever the heck I wanted because I'm wanting to have a VPS that people can use in access. But I don't want to. But, you know, storage on VPS is pretty expensive. So what I'm looking to do is to actually have the storage located back here at my house. In order to do that, I had to redirect traffic coming into the service through through NGNX and relay it back to my house, which if you go to or if you go to, I think it's a live.tuxpace.com, that own cast instance is now actually running in my closet. But the web service that you're interacting with is in Atlanta, Georgia. Magic. Yeah. And, you know, when I live stream, I'm multicasting across different services as well via that same NGNX instance. And I can also set up like dynamic links and, you know, spin up repositories as I need them and so on, all with just NGNX configuration. Get started on those repositories, Josh. Get your arch running. I'm working. I'm working on it. I just need to determine if this arch Linux installation is going to last long enough to justify it. It's not. All right. All right. So my thing of the week is Vorda. It is a front end for doing Borg backups, whether or not you use Borg base or just, you know, an external hard drive for your own service or whatever. Basically, what it allows you to do is back up your system to wherever you want to do it using Borg. And while I wouldn't say that it's as good as it was a Pika backup, is that what you use, Josh, is Pika? I use them both. OK. A lot of people use Pika. It's I think Pika is probably a little bit simpler. But I like the Vorda because not only does it allow you to do all your backup stuff and I'm not sure if Pika does this or not. But the UI on Vorda to actually mount your previous backup systems like you can mount it right inside of a of directory on your computer and you can browse all the files and stuff inside of that previous backup. It's just so good. It's like having it's kind of like having mountable snapshots, but actual backups of your whatever you want to back up. It's really, really good. And if you don't want to use Vorda, Pika is a good second choice or you can use Borgmatic if you're more of a terminal kind of person. But I highly recommend using Borg to back up your your system, whether you're using something like Borg base or whatever to do it, you know, you know, throw on a way from your house or whatever, or using it to like a server in your closet or whatever. It is so good. And it just gives you that extra piece of mind on top of having like snapshots and regular R sync backups. So it's really, really good. Wait a minute. One moment we're talking Linux stuff, the next Pikachu and the Borg from Star Trek. What what what universe? When you talk about Borg, we talked about the Borg backup project, which is a back. I know what he's talking about. I'm just being funny. I know, I know. But essentially, like the one the one thing about Vorda is that Vorda is is directly created by Borg base, which if you pay for Borg base, they directly contribute towards the Borg backup project, whereas Pika is completely independent from Borg, but they just happen to use Borg because Borg is actually a real relatively robust backup protocol. It's really good. Anyways, all right. So that is it for this podcast, by the way, guys. I think this may be the best podcast we've ever done. I'm just going to put that out there. It was really, really good. I'm very proud of us. We've done a very good job. So but before we go, I got to mention the contact information. If you want to get in contact with us, you can do so in any number of ways. You can head on over to the website, which is linuxcast.org. There you'll find previous episodes and blog posts and stuff. The previous episodes are a little bit behind because we switched to a different podcast host, and I'm still trying to figure out how I wanted to do those on the website. So those are a little bit behind, but still the blog posts are there. You can email us at email at the linuxcast.org. Josh, you can find all of his contact information at tenleyj.com slash contact almost got it wrong. Steve is on Faustodon. He's at faustodon.org slash at zero Linux zero with an X, not with a Z. Tyler has a YouTube channel that he actually remembered how to use. He's at youtube.com slash Xenio G. You can find all of our contact information, including links to all of the guys, Discord and Faustodon and all that stuff, including my stuff at the linuxcast.org slash contact. All the links and stuff will be there. You can support me on Patreon at Patreon.com slash the Linux cast. You can head on over to the store where there's desk mats and T and T shirts and hoodies and hats and all that stuff. That's at shop.linuxcast.org. All that stuff goes directly to help the channel. So thank you to everybody who has ordered stuff. It's really, really appreciated before I go. OK, before I go, I should take one thing with current patrons. If I can actually go to the proper scene here. Thanks to everybody who does support me on Patreon at Patreon.com slash this cast and also on YouTube and Kofi and all that stuff. Thanks for your support. I truly do appreciate it. Without you, the channel would not be anywhere near where it is right now. We record this live almost every Saturday at three o'clock PME Eastern time. We're not actually as consistent as we should be, but we're mostly consistent. Anyways, live, you can find that at the Linux cast on YouTube. And it's awesome. So thanks everybody for watching. Thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you next time. Bye.