 Just a moment, please. I'll be down on that. Yes? Um, yeah, listen. Quite nice of you. Oh, Joe. Joe, nice of you. Do you want to say something? I can't hear you. I guess I'll do it. I'll try to be more clear. Oh my god. Oh my god. This is my room. This is my room. Yes. I'll let her know. I'm going to do it for you. This is my room. This is my room. This is my room. This is my room. This is my room. Yes, something sure. Is this good? I'll put it up. What's in here? This is my room. Uh, Joe. I'll take a moment to get to this room. Just a moment, please. Thank you. Are you sure? Are you sure? I'm not lying. I'm sorry. I'm not lying. I'm not lying. I'm not lying. I'm not lying. I'm not lying. Everybody, we have here the innovators and transformers in this fashion. Just in our moderates, we just want to get this started. You are appears. We've been talking about power. I'd like to hear more about your stories in relationship to what you did, how you stepped into a place where you decided to say something that you felt had not been said. Or something simple. I was saying to Robbie just now, you know, and you're the only one that I don't really know that you told me you were earlier, so I just want to say that. So forgive me if I ask any silly questions later. Yeah, I've caught up a little bit. But I just remember we were all sort of in the world downtown. And certainly you know, I was saying to Rob, okay, so how do we frame this question because the one question is going because I felt like we were all part of the beauty panel. You know, I mean, like, we're all in this conversation. So I think telling the story of what brought you to that moment of performance. I certainly remember and first meeting you too. I was a little later. Yeah. Yeah. And also that you work as a playwright as well. I was thinking about innovation and transforming. I think I have to take a moment back and say transition space because I'm in that transition space. All these wonderful performances and panels here. And I'm feeling the body within that transition space. And I'm going to push through to get to innovation and transform. But I just wanted to indulge for that special T word. So thinking about transforming and innovation. And I think I'm going to start with transforming or go to transformation. And it's been so beautiful to see the performances but also to be hearing about education here and to be at your work with education. And it was a teacher who helped me very much. When I was asking what to do with pain that I had in my life so events. And my teacher said to me transform your pain into compassion. And that was a big opener for me is that because I feel politically that voicing a story and telling the story can be sufficient. I think you know telling the truth telling the story and voicing is paramount. Especially for stories that haven't been told that we're discussing earlier. But what does one in creating with and I think speaking of that work is now I'm just sort of speaking to myself. My eyes closed here in that space of to transform that pain into compassion for the capability of others. And that's that I think is a big starting point for me. What was my starting point? I had so many. I transformed from the child of two musicians classical musicians and thinking that I would have a career in classical music as a singer. To meeting an off off off Broadway playwright George Brumisa, who was one of the first really candid gay writers. And then I started to act with people from the living theater and I read Arto and then nothing was ever the same. And then I ran into the Dottas and I started working with Dottas material with a great performer by the name of John Wilson. John W. Wilson who worked with K2K and was just a genius. But I guess we're oddly because I found so many different kinds of voices. I had to come across the river as something that I started when I was a child really as a writer. And because to me it was the most concentrated intimate precise pristine form with which to distill my thoughts. And it's one thing to perform other people's words and to interpret. But when you perform your own words and your own journey and specifically when you can relate that journey. I mean I'm not a fan of self-indulgent work. But I don't think that there's anything that can be said negatively about putting your work through the sleuths of your own subjectivity in order to reach a greater objectivity. It creates an uvray into which you can really just dive in and invest yourself. And there are only a few things that I can say about transformation and one of them is you have to tell the truth. And being a kind person that's pretty easy for me. You have to you have to face your demons. And I think we've talked a lot about that on the panel. I don't really need to. I think we all know what that one's about. And you have to use everything that you have. All your experiences good and bad. Everything you've heard. I love the notion of listening being the most important part of the circle. Because the listening is where you find that common room, the foundation, you know, from which to draw power similarities. There are so many things as artists that we need to address right now. That's all we talked about as well. Michelle was just saying to me, oh, I love the daughter. And I, you know, Donna taught me a lot because because those were the people who were completely bought by something that had never happened before in the world, which was the advent of a world war. And these artists just they could not get it and it freaked them out. And all they could do is create laughter from such a situation. And we saw that also happen in Yugoslavia. You know, they had that cookbook. Does anybody remember that cookbook? Well, it's in here. People who were under siege wrote a cookbook. And it was and they were all theatrical artists and visual artists and they were all like living under siege during the war in Bosnia. I think it was a Bosnia cookbook actually. And they created humor out of their their tragedy, which was a real tragedy. We were once again up against ethnic cleansing. There's been many ethnic cleansings in the world, so we're happening right now as we speak and sit here. And still we have to laugh because laughter is the most profound thing that we can attain to and to understand that deep laugh. Just like that deep gasp when D'Amica was revealed herself. D'Amica, I guess. Thank you. Now I sound just ignorant. But considering that I was asleep about 20 minutes ago, not because of you guys, but because I had sort of slipped into a little old lecture thing. And this is something else that's dictated my work is being a diabetic, which we're gnarling and I share. We performed on this very stage together. And we had our little glucose tablets and we laughed about that. Yeah, you take you take all the prima mageria and you jump it all up. And that's transformation when you can find a through line from the truth to a vision. Well, a transformative moment. I mean, I think we all I think it's all I think it's constantly about invention and reinvention. And I think as a child, I was a teenage actor. And what happened was, you know, because I grew up, you know, in the 70s. A lot of stuff that was available at the time was, you know, the black musical stuff like that. And in film, there's a lot of, you know, black exploitation. You know, how many ways can you say, oh, there's not too many ways you can say this. And so I began to write as a kid. And so when I was 1975, you know, the few adults that were around me, I grew up in Harlem in the South Bronx and it was pretty rough back then. And, you know, there's a great young Ian writer named Aldo Carritanuto, who says knowledge separates you. And I would look at who was raising me and the way I was being raised. And I knew that there was an alternative to this, but I just didn't really have access to it. And I also began to write then. So like in 1975, I was about to be 16. And this angel of a woman with her two kids brought us down the seat for color girls. And I saw you on Broadway. And I found out that Endezaki also wrote the piece. And there were a few of us that stood up and it was myself. Maria. And it was a girl, a white girl from Long Island. And when Bang Bang came on, you got up. And they came and said, you guys need to sit down. But the point being is that I found out that you could write and be in your own work. That was the sense of that. And there was a word that you would use because you had some students, there was a story that you told early on about playing the other where I met some of your students. And the word universalism came in because we were three teenage girls that were different races, different ethnic groups that stood together when that song came up and we danced. Thank you for letting us dance. Giving us permission to dance. So that was the beginning, literally seeing that. And also after that, I started going to New Year's Week in Paulus Cafe as a child when I was on sixth grade. And I would see Zaki read certain things and stuff. But that's you gave us permission to dance. Hello. And also another thing that comes to mind with you, and I'm going to leave it here, I came across a terrific quote. Artists like the saints are the receivers. Their job is to summon every emotion, every skill to remain skinlessly alert in order, as Picasso says, to find. And the person who wrote it is a woman named Jennifer Lash. Jennifer Lash was the mother of Ray Fines. She was a brilliant writer. She died right before Schindler's List became, you know, but she wrote that. She's a brilliant writer. She came up with that text talking about what it all skinlessly alert. That's what you do. You give us permission to be skinless. Could you have the nerve to step into these dangerous places? Someone earlier talked about bravery as a bravery or courage. Daniel said that. Yeah, I like that you mentioned that. And I think that courage is an aspect, but it is also what it is. So I'm interested in your experience of finding the nerve to go to the light and give voice. And this is a question that could be a first time. I think it's so much a part of the work that happens all the time. I mean, in that time, as a performer, each time you work, you have to get the nerve to talk about the nervous. And everyone says, oh, it's good to be nervous. But it's held to be nervous. So stories about stepping in. The times when we were doing any dance and all the solo work, and what everyone here feels, the energy that was around them. So I would say the early 80s into the late 80s into the early 90s, you know. And certainly, Karen, you were a very public figure with some other people. You became the symbol for a lot of us when the funding got taken away. You know, you became like this sort of, no one really, I felt like your name kept cropping up in conversation. What is it they call those things now? Is that how you say it? Back in the day, because people who'd never even seen your work would toss your name around, like an example of that kind of body work and, you know, oh, we should pull the funding off. So you were in the light whether you wanted it or not. Certainly, you know, I'm curious about that kind of public, oh, now I'm this person that stands for a lot of things, not just who I am, you know. Whether you want to or not. So there's that. It's probably what happened to you, you know, Sally's right. And with some of the work, if you experienced that. So, and Dale, you know, if you also had experienced that in your solo work, I wonder, you know, as women doing that kind of work, going in the light, sometimes that light can be really harsh too. And we have no control over it. You know, I mean, it's how we're seen. You know, so just a little bit of that to throw in to make us all crazy. No, forgive me. It's an opportunity to hear from you about it. So whoever wants to take it. That's, there's a lot. I know, I know. And you know, you can say, I don't want to talk about it right now. No, I think it's important to speak about this. And so I think I'll talk about the, I'm going to break into points that were brought up. The idea of bravery, of courage, and also on the work censorship at those times during the culture wars, which I was a big part of. And I think I was after one of my friends, which was just wonderful that we put together here. Really icons these villages. We're talking about, brought up about censorship and those times that they can be these times. But with my age and my experience, I come to realize and to understand that my censorship and what I experienced is really at the expense of many people that were never recognized in particular, artists of color. Because the fact that I was, you know, censored or to be put in light is a form of racism at the expense of others who were not given certain visibility or even to be considered to be kept a certain value to be silenced because there was not enough recognition. I feel that I was not able to express that at that time because I was put into that position of the white male body who was heterosexual at this position. So I think that I was kind of used to my body in that way. But what I realized is that it really isn't... I don't think that what I experienced really was really censorship at all. And so when people speak about those kinds of times with a nostalgia, it makes me very angry. And it also makes me very angry. And that is where I have not risen to that place where I can take that anger and transform that into compassion yet. But I also have a lot of thinking about downtown culture and the fact that my complicity of gentrification and that my success and my visibility and my position and because being censored then creates a space for me in the marketplace. And I've done very well. And, you know, I mean... So I could probably speak about that for about another hour, but I won't, I think people have that. I think it's an important thing to bring up. And thank you. I mean, that's kind of... I just wanted to open that door a little bit because hearing everyone talk about the peace sounds actually made me think about Europe and how they were treated back then. Yes, I think that there was... What was the year that... which I said, I saw that the work I was doing was about it being in the audience and how beautiful it is to be able to have this opportunity to be with other people that were in the audience too so that it's not an alone experience. And that... I'm very grateful to be able to have that moment. But I would like to ask you, what year was it? Because I thought it was 1986 that you wrote, right? What year did you write it? When did you perform it? It was later. It was in 1991. Well, officially it was done in 1991. Yeah, so I saw that. That was that the premiere of it? No. I'd done it in work, as a work in progress in other venues at PS122. We did it. But we did it. And I'm... You know... Yeah. The time is in the days come, Jesus. But I wrote it in 1989 and Genie and I started just working at it the first time I did it. I did it alone at a conference that some people may have been at. A woman performer's, Anna Deere-Smith was there, a coordinator of Tropicana, myself and some others. And that must have been around 1989. And I was presenting it as an idea and I did the moment of the disruption. So that was the time before the kitchen. I'll talk very briefly about a moment of personal brainness, I guess. We're fear. I love that when they talk about being... They kind of go hand in hand. I wish I didn't do this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I might do it. Yeah. I think they go hand in hand. You have to overcome your fear in order to be brave. In the early 2000s, Judith Molina was doing a piece called Monty and Jane at the Living Theatre on Clinton Street. And I asked if I could understudy the role of Monty because she was having a lot of health problems and I just thought it might be cooler if she had some backup. And Judith and Hannah wanted to see me do a run-through because I was going to... I think we arranged some special performances so that I could perform the role. And I had... There's a nude scene with both women in that show. And I was 56 at the time. And I had never taken my clothes off in public. I mean, sort of, kind of, almost, but... You know, but... I've pretty much done everything on stage, giving birth, having sex, dying. Really? Not taking my clothes off. Get that gun on, you know. Haven't you? I'm excited. Don't tell me who you have. So wonderful. Anyway, there is a thing about being a woman of a certain age and taking your clothes off. And it was very, very challenging to me. And the lighting person was not there that day. And so we did the whole thing in work lights, which had to be like a nightmare. But it was really... I mean, you know, for most actors, that's a big... You know, it's not a big deal. You know, you can take off your clothes. The world demands it. So it was a big deal for me. It was hard. And so it was... That was a real challenge for me. Now, we've all... I'm people on this panel. I'm a white girl. I know it. So, you know, we can't talk about... I live the life of privilege, so to speak. That's really not to my liking. I would like everyone to have privilege, but... So that was my biggest challenge. It was like taking off my clothes, so to speak. But I think that as being... There have been other challenges. But I think that being a woman over a certain age and doing nude scenes, which Judith did all the time, was a clue. You know? I think that, you know, she talked about it a lot, too, actually. So, yeah, that's what I have to operate. I think... I was talking about this at dinner last night, a little bit on the train ride up. I did a memoir piece called Forever that was done at New York City Workshop like two years ago. It's about how my mother unconsciously introduced me to art, you know, because when I think about what was in my house, Ravel's Balero was in my house, James Baldwin was in my house, Dickens Hard Times was in my house, and then when someone... I was at... It's a long story as to how I was to write it, but the thing being is, you know, as you get older, I think you begin to look back. When you start hitting like... I think when you start hitting your mid-40s on up, you begin to kind of go, did I do this right? You know, things, you know, your past becomes very, very close. And it's also... And even though it's quote-unquote autobiographical, because I'm not interested in that per se. I mean, it still comes down to theater, beginning, middle, end, story, conflict, resolution. They've got therapists for that other shit. I don't have a therapist. So... Because I would like other people to do Forever, actually. But it was also, again, being able to, because this is what happens sometimes with the solo, the solo genre specifically. When people write about themselves, do they have the ability to see themselves as characters? And also see your relatives as characters? And also to give credence, because, for instance, in terms of the art of writing itself, I had to look at the person who was my mother, and she was not always my mother. She was a child. She was a person in and of herself. And also, again, the three fingers pointing back at you to see myself, honestly, to create this theater piece. Not this confessional, but this theater piece. So to do that, I had to really go to a hard place. And somebody who does that, who did that, God bless, who's from this state, they asked Anne Sexton, why do you write the way you write? And her response was, I have the right to invade my own privacy. But to add to that, it shouldn't be gratuitous, it shouldn't be just self-confessional to the point, where you have to look at yourself, yes, but also to create this piece and to be a self-honesty that really has to come through, but still within the reigns of theater. So that was a hard thing to do, to look at that, to look at these people who aren't related to it, to look at myself, but also go, okay, how do we do this and really make this work and make this function? Where it's just not my story, but it becomes, yeah? And I, because I saw this piece, and I thought, wow, she's the only one on this stage. I mean, like, and you had those letters, those quotes, you know. Like a live museum, yeah. There were pictures of my family, it was like a museum. And I really, you know, because I was still teaching then and I was thinking about leaving and going back and sort of, what's next for me as a writer? Do I perform again? Or do I just write for other people? Because I love writing for actors. You know, I just do it. It thrills me and I can go. Or do I work on another? So I was very like, I went to see you and I remember I was by myself. She wrote it. She's in it. She's wrestling with it. And there was a very tough scene for me. Towards the end. And it's just like reliving being alone on stage. I don't know if I could do that. I know Marshall, but, you know, but Teenie Town were not alone. But, you know, I don't know if I could. So I just wanted to hear from all of you. Those sort of moments of grace and terror and beauty. I love that word beauty. So I'm connecting it to the conversations we've been having all day. What that takes from us and, you know, what you have to bring to it and the terror of going out there and, okay, I've got this thing I'm doing. It's a slow strip tease. Yes. And you wore black. Always. I know. Black on black, baby. I would have loved to see you be 56 years old and naked. I think that's really powerful. I do. I mean, I think about that. I think about that. So, let's all take the other one. I was waiting for this part. Is this the part where they take it closer? Yeah. Oh. Do we have time? Should we just see maybe a couple of comments? Yeah. Or questions. If there's any questions, we'll do that. We are running over time. Two questions. And then Carl. Is that Xupong? Yes. Hi, my name is Xupong. Hi. And I work at Goddard College and many years ago we brought Robbie McAuley as the guest artist and she worked with our students on this question that has haunted me ever since. Who are your people? And it haunted me because I'm an immigrant from Taiwan and I am supposed, I feel like I'm supposed to say my people are the Taiwanese and in one sense they are but in another sense you are my people. Artists, creators are my people. And so my question is I would love to hear from each of you what that struggle looks like or if it's a struggle with that question of who are your people? Several responses and first I was listening to you and really just hearing and listening about your question and who you are and I was thinking oh that would be a beautiful piece for you to start to work on and that's where I was going first. It's a great title to this. Who are your people? And how we are to be asking and be discerning and to be deciding and the challenge but yet at the same time when you said and you were looking down as we are your people and I'd like to say I'm happy I'm your people and that is that feeling right when you're making art and that feeling and I think that's why many of us within theater a little bit different than but in the theater arts that feeling of a family or a connection when you're working there together and the commitment and everything that you're doing even in that sense within the audience there's nothing like it and that's why I as opposed to in that film experience so as I say yes I hear you about them. Anyone else want to address a beautiful comment or question for this beautiful question because I know whenever I'm on the subway I'm very unashamed about looking at everybody around me and it's really something because and I know this is going to really sound canned yes and I don't mean it to maybe it's because of that generation but now I just I just feel when I look at people well that's my that's my person that's nobody looks different to me everybody sort of looks like I mean not that I don't notice obvious differences of course but it's nothing that I negate it's just like nobody looks different to me I feel like I know everybody and it's really weird but and I want to say one other thing that I was going to say later on but I had an early marriage my first marriage was early and my first husband's parents were midwesterners and alcoholics and my father-in-law when he met me told me well you know a Jew is just a nigga turned inside out dude how long did you stay two weeks after that oh the marriage but it wasn't my husband interesting that he didn't use the word kik since he used the other but I guess Jew was bad enough for him and so I've never really felt marked by my Jewishness because I'm not an observant Jew but I certainly am part of that tribe I think we find so many artificial ways to separate ourselves from each other and it's bad enough that we have skin I mean just skin that we can never really really but yeah so yeah that's all well I think you know the family of artists that's a whole entity in and of itself even in terms of everyday things lack of integration means retrogression eventually extinction so you can't help but not have things be 1921 is when Noble Sissle and Louie Blake I'm sorry 1926 in Paris to do the play called Shuffle Along and Shuffle Along introduced the world to Josephine Baker and one person that was there to greet them was Stravinsky Stravinsky said it's very important that I meet you because you are the music that I am playing when yeah you are the music that I am playing Charlie Parker had to meet Stravinsky because he said I wrote Billy's mouth because of listening to you so this is what I mean all of this is integrated when you read Shakespeare you read the work of Ben Johnson you read the work of Terence Terence was in North Africa so this is what I mean I'm saying is that you cannot have I mean even in terms of the logistics you cannot have one without the other so yeah you're tired on these but you're also a lot of different I am as well I mean within the course of the day I might be listening to Ben Morrison I might be listening to Patty Schmidt I might be listening to Bowie you know what I'm saying when somebody tries to pigeonhole me I'm the one person for you to come that should be so like that one more is it okay is it okay if we just we're way over it's a beautiful place to end so thank you so much just take five or less I need a little bit of help to get this monitor out I can't sure do you need somebody to help you I think I need a little bit of help I think I need a little bit of help to get this monitor out I think I need somebody to help me get this monitor out