 What's up everyone? I'm Giovanni, your host. Welcome to another Coin Telegraph AMA. Today I have the pleasure to be joined by Alpha, co-founder and CEO of Derip Protocol. How are you doing, Alpha? Good, good. How are you doing? I'm great. Hello everyone. Alpha is the CEO of Derip Protocol, which is a platform for DeFi derivative trading. Today we're going to talk about this project and we're going to ask Alpha to answer all the questions that you have. For the audience, don't forget to write questions in the chat and I will be asking Alpha about it. Also, before we start, I want to remind our audience to like and subscribe to our channel if they haven't done it yet. We can get started. Alpha, maybe you want to give us some more background about yourself, about your team and about your project, Derip Protocol. Okay, cool. First of all, Derip Protocol, as you probably can tell from the name, Derip is actually short for derivative. It's a DeFi protocol for derivative trading. Actually, we define it by a formula, which is perpetual futures plus ever-losing options times decentralized, which means currently we provide two types of derivatives, perpetual futures and ever-losing options, and we provide in DeFi way. So, yeah, that's about very short about the protocol and about myself. I was actually from, originally I was from the physical background. I was a physical PhD and then I went to the financial industry. For most of the time, I was dealing with derivatives, the trading, pricing and risk management and so on and on. So, several years ago, I went to the crypto world, actually started from the crypto hedge fund. Then we found this pretty exciting world of DeFi. That's when we started to build our own DeFi DeApps. That's where Derip Protocol started. My team is a pretty late team with top experts of finance, math and computer science. We have a background like my background from the financial industry or people from the internet industry and financial industry and so on and on. And we have both in-depth experience from quantitative finance and also smart counter development. So, yeah, I guess that's very short. That's a very brief introduction for us. Maybe we can get into that. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, of course, we're going to dive deeper into most of the topics that you mentioned. First of all, I want to get the main issue here clear. So, you said that Deri is dealing with derivative trading. So, derivatives market are a huge market in cryptocurrencies and I'm sure that a lot of our viewers are interested in this market. So, please don't hesitate to ask questions if you have. First, I would like to address the fact that Deri is introducing derivative trading using DeFi. So, what is the point of using DeFi in derivative trading? We know that there are centralized exchanges, for example, that deal with derivative trading. What is better in having it in DeFi than in traditional exchanges? What's the point of it? Yeah, that's a very good question. Actually, that's the reason why we started this. Actually, I used to describe Deri protocol as a uniswap-styled Bitmax. So, Bitmax is just one example for the centralized exchange. But we are actually providing something that Bitmax provides, but through a way that's the same as uniswap does. Well, there's nothing wrong about what Bitmax does. It's just that for DeFi, we are building a financial system on the blockchain. And you simply cannot trade centralized exchange derivatives from the blockchain. So, let's say you want to do something within Ethereum and you want to hold a derivative, you want to hold a futures of Bitcoin. You just cannot go to trade on Bitmax. This has to be something that you do on Ethereum, right here, right on the blockchain. So, that's actually the primary reason that we do this in DeFi way. But that being said, there are some advantages that we have here that makes our solution better than the traditional centralized solutions. For example, we offer what we call extreme capital efficiency. And one of the examples is that we support multiple base tokens to post as a margin to trade. And for that, for example, on BSC, when you trade futures of Bitcoin, you can deposit either BUSD or BNB or cake. And we are adding more as a margin. This is not something that you could easily do in a centralized exchange. So, that's the basic reason why we do this, why we provide this derivative solution in the DeFi way. Okay, so basically, Derek provides with an organically fully on-chain solution to derivative trading. Exactly. And as far as I understand, you have two main products that are these perpetual futures and everlasting options as your core products that you're offering on your platform. So now, of course, we're going to go through them one by one. We know about perpetual futures. But a lot of people in the audience also have heard about them, but probably it's better if we remind our audience what perpetual futures are and introduce a very new concept, which is the concept of everlasting options. So would you mind to go through these two types of products and the main difference between the two? Yeah, actually, you could make things clearer if we compare the two. Actually, both the perpetual futures and everlasting options belongs to this funding fee-based perpetual derivative family. So what does that mean? So what does the funding fee-based perpetual derivatives mean? It is a kind of derivatives for which you pay the funding fee to maintain the position. It doesn't have an expression just like the regular futures or options, all of them with an expression, but the perpetual derivatives, they don't have an expression. So as long as you pay the funding fee, your position is maintained. So that's how it works. But for every specific type of such funding fee-based perpetual derivative, it has a payoff function that's defined, that's linked to the derivative. And that is where the perpetual futures and everlasting options, they are different from each other. So their payoff function is different. For perpetual futures, it's a linear payoff. So basically, let's say you are long a perpetual futures of Bitcoin. Then when Bitcoin goes up, then you make money. Bitcoin goes down, you lose money. So that's what a linear payoff function means. But for the case of everlasting options, it's not like that. It's not linear. The payoff function is defined so that let's say you are long a call everlasting co-option. Then the payoff function makes you, when Bitcoin goes up, you make money. When Bitcoin goes down, you don't lose money. So that is how the payoff function is defined. And that's in the core of this everlasting option. And that's how it's different from the perpetual futures. Okay, the way you described it, it seems super exciting. Like a way where you have just upside potential without downside risks. But you don't get that for free. You need to pay some fee. Right, exactly. And that's mainly the issue. So in order to not having that downside risk, you need to agree to pay a fee. I continue to maintain your position. Am I right? Yes, yes, exactly. So to remind our audience, so to make them understand better, the perpetual futures and everlasting options are special in the sense that they don't have this expiration moment that kind of characterizes other options and future contracts. So you can hold your position as long as you want. As long as you, depending on your position, you might need to pay a fee in order to maintain the position. Yes. So we're going to, we're going to of course make this concept a bit clearer later when you're going to show us how actually to concretely buy those options and you're going to make some concrete examples. Yes. First, I wanted to address a concrete, actually, I think that you could actually show us now the concrete examples if you want. So let's consider two different cases, one in which you buy a call option and another one where you buy a put option. Actually, as you mentioned, there are two types of options, call and put. Actually, I think I can make two examples. One is to buy a call, let's say I want you to buy a put in order to short a call, right? So one from the long side, the other from the short side. Yes. Buying a put is a very typical use case of option. Let's say you have some Bitcoin, you have some Bitcoin, but you don't want to bear the risk of a Bitcoin going down below, let's say, 40K. And then one thing that you can do is you can buy a put with a strike at a 40K, then you are protected against the risk of Bitcoin goes below 40K. As for how to do that, here let me share the screen. I just click this button, right? Okay, let me share the screen. Can you see my screen? Yes, we can see it. Yeah, so this is actually, this is the real life website. So this is where you do it. If you go to this, actually, you don't, yeah, if you go to dairy finance, you click options, you can go to this interface. So right now, actually, I already have some, yeah, because I tried this out before. So I already have some, I have like a few hundred dollars deposited into this position as a margin. But if you don't have, so you can, first thing you can do is deposit some, because this is on BSC. So the finance margin, we use the BUSD as the base token. So first thing you can do is you can add some BUSD at the margin. So if you have something here in your margin account, the next things that you can, then we can go to buy this put option. As you can see, currently we, actually today is the day we launched this. So this is very fresh. We have options for both Bitcoin and for Ethernet, right? For Bitcoin, currently we have, we offer the $40,000, this is the strike, meaning the protection price is $40,000 and this is a strike at $50,000, $50K. And this is a put and this is a cost, P for put and C for call. Of course, and you can see it here, this is the option types to put, okay? So the first exam I'm going to show you is I buy some put option at strike price of $40,000, but I don't have too much money here because I only have a few hundreds and then we try to buy 0.1 Bitcoin. And it actually used up this much of my margin. So, okay, I can equal 0.1 Bitcoin. So that's associated to 0.1 Bitcoin. Okay, I can equal trade. This is going to tell me the number of contracts, 0.1, position of execution, 0.1, my direction is alone, meaning I'm buying it. Okay, and this is the trade price and I'm going to pay some transaction fee, which is not really dear though, but it's too small to show here because we only have two digits of the point. Okay, I can okay, and I confirm that on my wallet. So now you basically bought a put option. Yes, you can see it's there, right? So I just bought a put option. I bought a put option for 0.1 Bitcoin. So that's going to protect my 0.1 Bitcoin at the price of $40,000. So this is what's going to happen, so this is what's going to happen. So if the price of Bitcoin stays above $40K, nothing's going to happen. So there won't be much unrealized PNL. As you can see, here's a very little change of PNL here. So basically nothing's going to happen. But if one day, let's say Bitcoin gets below $40K, let's say it goes to $35K. So that's $5,000 below the strike. Then for one Bitcoin, I will have a realized PNL of $5,000. But here because I only bought 0.1, right? So in that case, I would have a unrealized PNL here for $500. So that $500 is going to compensate my loss below the Bitcoin price of $40K. So that's how it works. Okay, and let's say that you want to get out from this position. What do you do? You sell your position? To do it, you can just enter an opposite direction trade and click trade. But the easier way to do that is to click on this cross. I just click on this one. Can you confirm? It takes a little bit of time to confirm. There you go. It's gone. I just closed my position. Okay, you closed your position and basically you realize your gains, which is 5,000 gains. No, you actually compensated the loss of $5,000 because Bitcoin went below the strike price by $5,000 and you basically managed to hedge that risk. Yes, let's say, right, because just now the Bitcoin price didn't really change, right? Let's say if the Bitcoin price changed to, let's say it went to $35K, right? The minute after I bought this put option, then I would have an unrealized PNL of $500 here because I only bought 0.1 for 0.1 PTC, right? So my unrealized PNL is going to be $500. If I connect this cross here, I would turn that unrealized PNL into a realized PNL, then I would have $500 profit. Okay, cool. So now I would like to see another example. Before we go to the call option example, let's see if we can answer some questions from the audience. Okay, cool. So Gizhu is asking, how is the disequilibrium funding for options calculated? Will it make a long option to receive money? I'm not sure. Actually, that's an interesting question because by the naming of disequilibrium funding, I think this is a terminology from one of the earlier versions of our ever-lost options. Actually, right now we don't have disequilibrium funding anymore. Right now it's only just one funding. Okay. But as for your question, will it make a long option to receive money? Directly, it will not. But in reality, if the selling, it could happen in the very extreme cases if there are just too many people selling it, it could turn it into that extreme case. Okay, so just wanted to remind our audience that, as you said, today you launched the first examples of everlasting options. So you have two main markets for everlasting options, one for Ethereum and one for Bitcoin. And you can play around with those. So we saw before an example of how you buy a put everlasting option. Now let's see what is the strategy for buying a call option. Okay. Actually, yeah. I think for the call option, let's show the other side to sell. Actually, let me choose this 50K call. The call at 50K. Actually, let me show you how to sell it. The sell it is on the other side. So the sell it is, it really means if, okay, let me just first enter the position also. I'm going to do, again, I'm going to do 0.1 Bitcoin. Let me click trade. So remember that, recall that I clicked the short, right? So right now I'm going to do, so the number of contracts is going to be minus 0.1. And position of the execution is minus 0.1. And direction is short. And this is the trade price. And actually you can see, okay, now I have a little bit bigger transaction D that I can see from here. It's 0.05 BUSD. That's, no, no, nine BUSD. So that's nine cents. Okay. So now to make things clear, what are you betting on right now? Yeah, I'm going to explain that right now. So, okay, it's confirmed. Oh, yeah, confirmed. Okay, so now I'm having this short position. What I'm betting on right now is actually that Bitcoin don't go, Bitcoin will not go about 50K. Because if Bitcoin, because I'm sure this 50K call option, if the Bitcoin does go about 50K, I'm going to lose money. So as long as Bitcoin stays below 50K, I will not have a significant, it's going to be a very small change here for this Unreal as a PNL, but there won't be a significant change. But once the Bitcoin goes above 50K, let's say it goes to 55K, then for every one contract, the short position will lose 5,000. And for my 0.1 contract, I will lose 500. But the good thing is, as long as when it does not go about that, I will be collecting this money fee. As you can see here, accrued the funding fee, I already accrued some funding fee, right? 0.01 something. And basically, those fees come from the other side of the trade. So the other side of the trade is paying those fees to you because the one that goes long, the long side is paying the funding fees. The short side is receiving the funding fees as far as I understand. That's exactly how it works. Okay. So before I play the role of the long side, right? So actually, yeah, because I should point out the accrued funding fee was minus. That means I was paying for it. And now I'm collecting it. Right. So let's say that your bet goes wrong and the Bitcoin goes above the benchmark that you established. At that point, you said that you're going to lose some money. You're going to lose some money after it. But some of that money is going to be compensated by the funding fees that you've been collecting until that very moment. Am I correct? Yes. Yes. You are right. Okay. So it sounds like a very interesting mechanism, but would you say that it's something that even a newbie could approach or it's something for professional traders? I would say, so this is something, if you do have such a demand, if you do have such a demand, you understand this very easy. For example, the first case that I made, if you do have the same kind of wish that you don't want a better risk that Bitcoin goes below 40K, then you go buy a pool. That's very easy to understand. Then that buying would be very straightforward for you. And the second case that I just made, the setting operation, well, that sounds a bit risky. So if you are not sure about that, then you might not be the best practice for you to do. So the thing is, you do need to understand this. And when you have that demand, you would understand this very easily. I think this setting call, if I put this case in another scenario, it would be more easy to understand. Let's say you want to sell your Bitcoin, you want to sell your Bitcoin at 50K. And then normally what you do is you just wait. Wait for Bitcoin to go to the price, say 50K, and then you sell it. That's the regular way to do it. But there is an advanced way to do this. Instead of just waiting, what I did just now, you sell a call option at 50K and enjoy collecting the funding. And when Bitcoin does hit the price of 50K, you close your position and you sell your Bitcoin. That equals to the case, that's equivalent to the case that you sell your Bitcoin at 50K. But what's good about this is, before Bitcoin hits the price of 50K, you collect all the funding, please. That's an extra income, right? Right, that's very fascinating. So a lot of people that are not patient enough to see Bitcoin price going up, this is basically a very interesting way to receive some passive income using derivatives. Exactly. Okay, that's cool. That's cool. So I guess that for people that want to understand better this mechanism, I would say that a good place where to go is on the medium account of Deri. There is a very interesting page where they can check for separate examples, for separate strategies of how to trade everlasting options. But also, I want to mention the fact that this everlasting option concept was introduced for the first time, as far as I know, this year in a paper by Sam Bankman Fried and another gentleman called Duke White. Yes, yes. So those, we would say that they introduced this concept for the very first time, right? Yes, in the main of this year. Three months ago. Right. And there is a paper where this everlasting option concept is explained. What kind of contribution did you have into the invention of this everlasting option concept, if any? Yeah, yeah, as you mentioned, so this was originally proposed by Dave White and Sam, right? Dave White was from paradigm research and our work was based on their theoretical paper too. But actually we made our own contributions too. We contributed to this both to the theoretical part and to the practical part. For the theoretical part, we actually extend the everlasting options discussing that paper to a continuous funding scenario, meaning that you pay the funding fee continuously. Because originally in the paper, they talk about scenarios that you pay once or twice a day. That was how the funding fee paid. But actually that was not proper for the DeFi application. In DeFi, things happen naturally per block or per second. That's a more natural way for DeFi. So we extended to this continuous funding scenario. Also, we actually derived a closed-form analytical formula for the pricing. Because originally they came up with a pricing framework, which is a summation of infinite series, which is not quite practical. But we actually derived this closed-form solution for it, which is mathematically simple and beautiful. It actually helps people understand this everlasting options. And just like if you are familiar with the options, you would know the so-called black-shells pricing formula. So our pricing formula helps people understand this everlasting options just like the black-shell pricing formula helps people understand the regular options. So that's the theoretical part. And also we contribute to the practical part. Of course, because we are the first one to bring this into reality. The daily everlasting option is the first everlasting option that has been built on this planet. And to do that, it's not an easy thing. To do that, we need to resolve a series of financial engineering problems, such as how to do the risk management, how to acquire the initial margin or the maintenance margin. And also because we do this through an AMM way, then how to implement everlasting options in the AMM way. And so on and on. So we resolve a lot of practical financial engineering problems. So basically, yes. So that's our contributions. Right. I think we have another question from the same viewer as before. What's the current setting equivalent to this equilibrium funding that makes long and short balance? How is it calculated? Can you point me to the relevant page? Actually, you can go to our website. For this, I don't need to share the screen. You can go to read the white paper. This is actually explained in the, because right now there's only one part of funding, right? But this part of funding is actually the funding fee is associated to the price, which is associated to the net position. So when the pool is not in the equilibrium state, the price is going to be either above or below the theoretical price. And the increment part, the change of the price, or the delta part of the price relative to the theoretical price, associates to one part of the funding. And that part of the funding is what you are asking. The current setting equivalent to this equilibrium funding. So it's just included in the current one funding fee. Yeah, because in order to make people understand better this concept, the funding fees that are implemented by these everlasting contracts have also the function to, as far as I understand, to balance, to keep the price of the underlying asset. Pagued to the price of the option itself. So as far as I understand, the fees are paid also to keep the prices of the underlying asset tied to the price of the, not going too high or too low, the price of the option itself. Did I understand correctly this concept? Yes, that's more or less like that. So let's make this concrete. Let's say the theoretical price is for this option, the theoretical mark price for this option is, let's say 100. And if there's, let's say, because this question is about this equilibrium funding, which is associated to the unbalanced loans and shores. So let's say there are more loans than shores, then the pool is not in an equilibrium state. Then the mark price will not be 100. It will be higher than 100. Let's say 110. That extra part of the 10, the 110 minus 100, the extra part, which is $10, that is associated to the disequilibrium part, which is the current set equivalent to the disequilibrium funding. That makes loans and shores balance. I hope that answers the question. Right. And now I would like to address another question which I have. So we know that Dairy is a platform using DeFi, so it's fully on chain. And this concept of everlasting options and our, I mean, as you said, it's the first example on your platform. It's the very first concrete example of everlasting options. On our planet. On our planet, exactly. But do you think that this everlasting option could also be used in an off chain environment or they need to be on chain to work? It doesn't have to be. It could be implemented by the centralized exchange too. Okay. But yeah, but... Yeah, go ahead. No, I just wanted to ask you if this concept can also be used in a decentralized way. So what is the incentive of having it on DeFi and on blockchain? Well, but the way we do this is the AMM way. So that's a very easy way to start this from zero, right? So if you do this in a centralized exchange way, then you would, first of all, first thing is you need to gather together a number of, like, market makers. And then all to understand how this thing works, especially how the pricing works. And so that's a whole bunch of stuff. But the AMM way, because the AMM is something that's kind of original in the DeFi world, right? The AMM approach makes this thing happen naturally and easily. Right. Yeah, I mean, I guess the point is always bypassing these middlemen, these unnecessary actors that need to be involved if you want to do things in a centralized manner. So that's the whole point of DeFi. So now I would like to just address again our audience, just continue asking questions because this is about the future of derivative trading. So it's a very exciting aspect of our industry. What I want to ask you now is, like, I know that when you choose a position on your platform, a trading position, you tokenize it. So your platform tokenizes trading positions and transforms them into NFTs. So can you explain the reasoning behind this mechanism and why are you tokenizing these trading positions? Yeah. As far as I know, DeFi was probably the first DeFi project that made something as an NFT within the project. The second one that I know was Unisop. They made their actually LP tokens. I mean, Unisop V3, they made their LP tokens as an NFT, right? Actually, the thing is, making positions as an NFT or tokenizing position is a way to promote the composability. What does that mean? It means, let's say, another DeFi project, APP, they would like to hold some, they would like to hold some derivatives within their project, within their smart contract. Then it would be very easily, extremely convenient for them to hold this NFT, the position NFT, right? You can imagine, let's say, if this is some structural product, it's very common to see that structural product using derivative as part of the constituents, right? So if they want to, let's say, they want to hedge their Bitcoin, hedge their risk of Bitcoin going down to below 40K, they want to just, they just want to buy a put option, the everlasting put option. But I'm talking about a smart contract doing this, okay? Then it's very easy for that smart contract to hold this position token, the NFT, in its own smart contract. So that's extremely convenient for the other DeFi projects to do this. Right. I was just curious because NFTs are these kind of guarantees of uniqueness, of irreplaceability. So I was wondering why you need to make one of these great positions unique like a piece of art, like an NFT. That's what I was wondering. Oh, well, the thing is, it's not like we want this to be unique, right? It's simply because your position is unique. So let's say you bought some everlasting options at some price with some margin. And I had my position, your position at my position would not be found. They are unique just as they are. So they have to be NFT. Yeah, right. It makes sense. It makes sense. So moving forward, I want to make sure that the audience understands the function of your native token, dairy token. So what kind of role does it play within your ecosystem and within this system of derivative trading? What kind of role does this dairy token play? Right. It serves several roles. First of all, it's a governance token as most of the DeFi protocol tokens does. And also, it plays some of the roles that what we call it as a privileged token. So this is not fully implemented yet, but going forward, there are in some circumstances, there are some things that you do within the DeFi protocol system. The thing you can do is actually a privilege. And whenever there is a privilege, we are to ground that privilege by your holding of dairy token. So let's say this is something that we are to implement in the future. Let's say liquidating a position. Right now, this is just completely open. Anybody can do it, but it actually comes with a benefit because you can make money from that. Then we can make it as a privilege. Then you have to hold dairy to do that. So that's also part of the roles that dairy tokens play in the dairy ecosystem. And also, actually, 20% of the transaction fee would be used to buy dairy and a bird. That's also some of the value base of the token. Okay. So if I will understand, it's mainly a system for incentives to give incentives to... For example, I heard that there are other roles played in your ecosystem, which is the role of the liquidators and the role of the arbitrageers. So can you maybe go through these two different roles and explain how they work? Okay, yeah. Arbitrageers are just some special kinds of traders in the ecosystem. There are arbitrageers, both for the perpetual futures and for everlasting options, but it's probably easier to explain because everlasting options is a little bit more complicated. Then it's probably easier to explain the arbitrageers for the case of perpetual futures. So the perpetual futures, the funding fee is simpler than everlasting options is associated to the net positions. Meaning it's defined in a way that the majority side needs to pay the minority side funding fee. For example, if there are just too many people that go along the perpetual futures of Bitcoin and there are a few people shorted and then the long positions will need to pay a funding fee to the short positions. Then that creates a very straightforward and natural arbitrage opportunity. You can just go to take the short side. You go short the Bitcoin here to collect the funding fee, but because you are short Bitcoin here, so you might want to hedge your short position somewhere else, let's say in a centralized exchange or other exchanges. Then as long as your short position is hedged, then you are neutral to the market risk. However Bitcoin changes, you are fine with your positions, but you're enjoying the funding fee. So that's how you do arbitrage with Darryl protocol. What about the liquidators? Liquidators, because as you know Bitcoin is a passive state machine. It just cannot do anything from its own initiative. The blockchain itself cannot take initiative to do anything actively. So anything has to be initialized from outside. Then this creates a problem is when let's say my position is underwater, meaning it's on the margins. What it means is my balance in the margin account is below the maintenance margin requirement. Then my position needs to be liquidated, right? But the blockchain cannot do this. So somebody has to pay the gas to do this. Then that's where the liquidators come in. So the liquidator would pay the gas, take the initiative to liquidate such positions. But why the liquidator would do this is because when the position is liquidated, it still has some left over there. The remaining value of the position, some left over, it's not zero. It's close to zero, but it's not zero. So when you liquidate the position, you share part of that remaining value. Well, I guess that for a centralized exchange, that money that is lost by the person that gets liquidated goes entirely to the exchange in this system. Not really. I think the common practice for centralized exchanges, they have the so-called interest fund. For example, Bitmax has this interest fund. The remaining value of the liquidated position goes to that interest fund, which keeps growing up. Right. Okay, so now I would like just to give you the opportunity to explain at what point of the roadmap your project is because we know that today you launched the first example of everlasting options. But I guess that your project has other milestones to achieve in the following months. So why don't you tell us a bit like, at what point is the dairy platform right now and where you aim it to be in six months, one year time? Six months and one year time. That's sort of a long in the DeFi world, right? Because we change so, the DeFi world is so exciting, change so fast. I think in six months, our goal is to make the dairy directives, which currently means the perpetual futures and everlasting options as an important part of the DeFi infrastructure. Any advanced or a mature financial system would have derivatives as a core part of the infrastructure, right? And futures and options are the two most important derivatives. So right now, the DeFi, the whole DeFi thing is, I think it's still in its early stage because the relatively mature sector are only either lending the borrow projects like CompoundRB or it's DEX, like Uniswap, Suchaswap, those kind of things. And so that's of course very important but very basic and for an advanced or complete financial system, I think derivative is one of the core parts because finance is to deal with risk. And derivative is the most important tool to deal with the risk that the human being have ever invented. And that's what we're doing here. So our mission is to facilitate people to trade risky speculations on chain precisely and capital efficiently. I hope in six miles people can do that very easily within the DeFi world using their protocol. Yeah, I think that we're gonna look forward to it and we're gonna follow your project very closely. And yeah, I think that it's a very astute idea. So the concept of everlasting options is definitely something that I never heard before. So a lot of our audience would probably be interested in checking out your website to know more about it, which is Dairy.finance if I'm not mistaken. Yes, that's correct. Dairy.finance. Dairy is just short for derivative. I think it's very easy to remember. Awesome. Okay, so I think that this is a good note on which to wrap up things. Thanks a lot, Alpha, for being with us today. Thank you, Giovanni, and thank everybody. And yeah, so thanks a lot for everyone watching. It was great to receive your questions. So this was the Dairy platform, a new project that helps people to do derivative trading on DeFi. I'm Giovanni, your host, and see you next time. See you.