 I'm joined by Yannis Varoufakis, acclaimed author, academic, former Greek finance minister. Yannis, welcome to Navarra Media. It's very good to be here. I think I interviewed you the last time before Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader. So a lot has obviously changed. Yes, hello there. Before we go into the really deep intellectual stuff, a very simple question. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn will be the next Prime Minister? I always refuse, steadfastly, to issue predictions because this isn't an ideological stance. I don't think we have the right to predict because if you force me to come up with predictions about the future of humanity, socialism, the world, you know, good manners, there's no evidence that things are going in the right direction. And then we'll all be gloomy and not find the energy we need in the morning to get out for bed. So, no predictions. Let's do what we must. I think that the Corbyn government is the only way out. Firstly, the dog's Brexit process, and secondly, out of the broken business, political and economic model of the United Kingdom. And it's something that we need as progressives from the other side of the pond. So let's work towards the Corbyn government and stop procrasticating. And do you think Brexit will happen? Do you think Britain will leave the European Union? I know you don't like predictions, but that obviously has to inform the strategy one adopts in the present. Some people think it's inevitable. Therefore, we should advocate. There's no such thing as inevitability when it comes to political processes. It's what we do collectively that matters. This is why it's so important to go back to what I was saying before, to stop looking at it as a spectator sport. Democracy is not a spectator sport. It's what, you know, something we all participate in, especially when we pretend that we're not participating in it, because this is, you know, how apathy feeds into a variety of sins. I think we're going to have a two-stage process. We're going to have a general election that will determine whether Johnson gets in with his hard Brexit idiocy, or whether hard Brexit is off the table with the Corbyn government. And the Corbyn government is going to pass a button on to the British people to decide on whether they want a sensible deal to get out or to remain. And I think that is perfectly sensible. And it's remarkable that these days, you know, moderate, sensible policies are being portrayed as radical. So if you had to give any advice to Jeremy Corbyn about what he's done right, what he's done wrong, what one piece of advice would you have as somebody who's been in government, who's had to confront really difficult challenges? Well, I think that Jeremy has been supremely sensible in the way that he's handled the whole Brexit process. This is a very unfashionable view. It's exactly the opposite of what the systemic media are trying to promote. If you think about it, together we campaigned in 2016 against Brexit on the basis that the EU sucks. It is wholly anti-democratic. It's full of problems. But it's the best of all available alternatives. Exiting will push you, that's what I was saying, into a hotel California conundrum. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave. And also it will damage seriously the lives, both economically and socially, and morally too, of the weakest members of society. So even though we were very critical of the EU, we campaigned to remain. And this was not ambiguity. This was a nuanced remain, a radical remain. We have to stay in the EU and try to change it from within. And after that, Jeremy acknowledged that the people who were Britain in their majority voted to leave. So as a Democrat, he took this on board even though he was on the losing side. The fact that he respected the majority was no sign that he was not serious about his remain position. And now you can see that the way that he has guided the Labour Party towards a people's vote in the end produces a greater probability of the nation coming together, especially working people coming together who supported the different views. So I have no advice to give, Jeremy. I think he's done a pretty good job. What I would have liked to see is something like a speech of hope for the UK. There's too much doom and gloom in this country. I consider Brexit to be, on the one hand, a major crisis. On the other hand, a fantastic explosion of democratic energy that needs to be harnessed. And it needs to be harnessed by a leader that puts forward a vision of Britain the next 10 years as a reformed country, a transformed country, a country that moves away from fascism, a country that shows that it is possible to have a modern, technologically innovative, green agenda that is, at the same time, one of social justice. And to paint a picture of a future relations between the UK and the EU that is attractive to the British people. So a speech of hope would have been good to have. I hope we will have it soon. Secondly, I think that once he wins government, assuming he wins government, hoping that he wins government, I would like the referendum, the second referendum, not to be the end of the road, but that it should be the beginning of a process of deep democratization with a series of constitutional assemblies that effectively pass the button on to the people of Britain so that they can write down, for the first time, a progressive constitution by which to replace what has obviously broken down the unwritten constitution so far. Labour's just an answers policy of foreign nationals being able to vote in general election. We probably agree it's a very good policy. How do you feel about one day perhaps being an MP in Britain yourself? Well, I would feel very much at home because I've spent a lot of time in this country. I cut my political teeth in this country. I was in every picket line during the thatcher years, from the steelworker strike in 1979 to, I spent a whole of 1984, that heart-wrenching period during the miners' strike, going from Kent to Yorkshire and so on, Durham following the NUM. I was at whopping, watching the destruction of the type-setters unions in the hands of Rupert Murdoch. So I feel that this is my country as well, but I feel like this everywhere because I'm not a citizen of nowhere. I'm a citizen of Greece. My anchor is in Greece, like we all need to have an anchor so as to be able to float freely, but not anchorlessly across different national borders. I don't think you need me here. I think you have a very good comrades in Britain representing you in the House of Commons. What I think you do need is a parallel citizens assembly process that feeds the House of Commons with proposals, with, in exactly the same way as in Ireland, the citizens assembly unlocked the question of abortion rights, women's rights and so on. If they can do it in Ireland, you can do it here. Would you ever work for a Corbyn government? Maybe in the capacity of Governor of the Bank of England or a senior advisor? Obviously the first one's a bit more... There's no way I would ever be in a central bank because I think I'm really not cut out for it. The central banker must remain quiet. There's not something I can do. Can you imagine? Can you imagine me not speaking out and pretending to be an impartial monetary policy? Hasn't that changed now? Now they need to have kind of like forward guidance as to what markets are going to be doing in the next three, four months. That's forward guidance. You could do that. But the whole point is not to say what you believe. And in any case, I am a political animal. I would very much like... I will campaign on every campaign that matters to the working people of Britain. I will be here, like I am here today. But at the same time I'm leading our political party in Greece. You have to remember that my fellow Greeks are still in debtor's prison. We now have a toxic, neoliberal government. This week, actually on Wednesday, I'm going back to Parliament tomorrow in Athens to fight the good fight against this government. They are giving to four or five oil companies effectively carte blanche to drill across Greece, fracking oil and gas drilling in the Aegean, in the Ionian Sea, in the Eastern Mediterranean, together with Netanyakos, Israel, together with ExxonMobil, together with the dictatorship of Egypt, President Sisi. So the fight is international. It happens everywhere. Each one of us must concentrate their energy while also helping everybody else where they can be most effective. But do you not think that... You said you wouldn't like the job yourself. But do you not think that in general, people who are heading up central banks should be political? They are political. Exactly, but the point... But pretending that they're not political. The claim to impartiality... They become reactionary. Precisely, but the claim... Now I'm not going to be one of them. Precisely, but the point is, surely if we were to have a socialist government who was honest about the role of monetary policy and finance within transitioning an economy to a more green, just, sustainable way of doing things, that quote-unquote impartiality, which is not impartiality, it's an ideological veil for a certain kind of politics, we'd get rid of that, and so it might not be you, but you can't get rid of it as a... If you accept the contract of a supposedly independent central banker, you cannot change that kind of contract. You've just accepted it. You've been bound by it. But John McDonnell is going to do. I know that about that, and this is what I'm very, very happy doing, helping John McDonnell, working with John McDonnell, with friends, with comrades, DM25 or Pan-European Movement and the Labour Party are already planning a conference that we will co-sponsor in Brussels in January to start effectively a progressive international that has an agenda for Europe and for the world for transforming central banking, transforming finance, transforming the rules of the game for multinationals, tax evasion and so on. This is how we're going to change central banking. Because central banking now is going through a massive crisis. Effectively, the central banks have... It's a bit like being a pilot in a jet, in an aircraft, and finding out that the levers don't work. And now their levers have ceased working. You look at the central bank of Europe, you look at the Fed, you look at the bank of England, they are trying to inflate the economy, and they are failing to do so, which is unbelievable. It's like jumping out of an airplane and realizing that you are floating and you're not falling. Why? Because capitalism, after the 10 years of the post-2008 crisis, is now morphing into a deflation machine, a machine that is producing a great deal of wealth for the wealthy, a lot of money, liquidity, but no investment. So, a labor government is necessary to say, here, a meta-government in Greece, progressive governments around the world, we need to bind together in order to create effectively a new financial order. We need to move towards post-capitalism when it comes to property rights. Already, John McDonnell today, I heard him announce a policy that we've been working on as well, with DM25, and we've been discussing this with John and the Labor Party, of shifting property rights to workers, shares, a minimum of shareholding going to workers, I would say, go to society, so you have a universal basic dividend, and at the same time, transforming the role of money and international money, replacing the dollar from being in the international currency with something much clearer, much nearer to what John Maynard Keynes was talking about in 1944, International Clearing Union. Which, for people watching, it was what Keynes wanted with the Bretton Woods arrangements. The Americans broadly agreed with the exception of the dollar being the global reserve currency. That's right. And now you have a choice between Trump and Trump's strategy of maintaining the exorbitant privilege of the dollar or mutualization of money by a progressive, internationally-minded coalition of states. What kind of chance did you think John McDonnell would be? Because obviously, prior to 2015, people who were aware of him, the commentariat within policy circles, would say this is literally the last kind of person we want to be running the UK economy. And yet now he's actually more popular with the Financial Times, the city of London with CEOs. Isn't this astonishing? Then Jeremy Corbyn. And so, yeah, that's the question to me is, let's cherish the small nuggets of pure joy that we can get out of a very difficult period internationally, a period of Bolsonaro, Trump, this is wonderful to watch John McDonnell being painted by the Financial Times as the best of the lot, the lesser evil. That's a major victory. Well done, John. Do you think that good will will sustain on impact of taking office? And do you think? No, of course not. The character assassination processes is going to start again the moment he starts taxing the rich, the moment he starts doing things that undermine the monopoly power of the oligarchs or the monopoly power of the oligarchs. But that's okay. John is quite a seasoned campaigner. He expects it. What matters is to maintain the link, the bond with the people, with the voters. We have shown both here in Britain but also asking Greece that it's perfectly possible to bypass the media, the establishment media and through media like yours and direct contact to re-establish a connection with the people directly. I guess the greatest manifestation of that was the hockey boat. That's right. I think that was just a remark. 62% against every single television station, radio station and newspaper in Greece. And our little party that got into parliament now, that was a similar phenomenon. We were vilified and demonised by every single mass medium there is. Quickly on Greece, I don't want to stick on that point too much because you've talked about Syriza at great length and we've got so much to get through. Thinking about the hockey boat and the opportunity that created, not just for Syriza but for a renewal of Greek democracy. And for you for everybody. Of course. Everybody was looking at what we were doing in the same way that Europe was looking at the storming of Bastille as the dawning of a new day. Do you think that capitulation by Syriza was around the third agreement that was ultimately hashed out with the Troika? Do you think that capitulation was the end of something or the beginning of something? Because obviously you seem quite an optimistic person. You're presently engaged in electoral politics once more. But as a part of you think this could have played up very differently with Syriza, with Tsipras and from what you're saying it could have had historic implications and it was a missed opportunity. It was. It was. I never read my book. I would never read the game over the period. For that period. Because it's so saddening. It was a fantastic opportunity. It was fantastic. The jailbreak had succeeded. We were about to run into the fields away from the concentration camp and our leader asked us to shepherd the dust back into the concentration camp. But to answer the first part of your question it's both. It's both an end and a beginning because there's no such thing as final defeat or a final victory as Tony Bennett used to say. Every generation is condemned to fight the good fight again and again and again. And what makes us capable of writing history is this capacity to continue fighting along the lines of the interests of the many. And what could Labour learn from that capitulation? Because obviously it's perfectly possible that Labour go into government where there's a bump in popularity, people like the programme, but then Labour in whatever way don't necessarily deliver on the goodwill that gets them there in the first place. What can Labour, the people around Jeremy Corbyn, learn from the experience of Suraz and Cyprus? 2015, the crashing of the Greek spring, as Samovarska referred to that episode. It's a great opportunity for the Labour Party to revisit its own roots because what we had in Greece in the summer of 2015 the Labour Party experienced it in 1926 with Ramsey MacDonald. So don't repeat Ramsey MacDonald because what the establishment will try to do is they will try, it's not easy for them to overthrow government in total. But what they will try to do is they will target the key figures in the government which they consider to be the linchpins of the Government and Deer Steady Program. They will indulge in a project of character assassination and the media are going to be saying, if you're going to save your government you have to get rid of these people. This is what they were doing in Greece as well. That's what they were doing in the 1920s with the Labour Party back then so that the governments are musculated. Maybe you bring in some Lib Dems in order to temper it and effectively to turn it into a Tory government with the Labour branding intact in order to justify doing terrible things to the working class in the name of Labour. So do you depart ways then a little bit with something like Paul Mason who says that the politics of the present conjuncture the rise of the far right the huge task ahead in transforming the British economy in particular which has really profound problems just as Greece does but those two countries have much bigger problems than say Greece or Germany. Even like Paul would say, well to do that you need a grand coalition you need an alliance, a popular front which would include Liberal Democrats and include Scottish and Welsh nationalists. No way. So you don't agree with Paul on that? The Lib Dems must be condemned to being treated with maximum contempt forever. They are the ones that effectively allowed David Cameron to impose austerity and to usurp even liberal values. So the Lib Dems if there is any justice in this world we go nowhere near government and especially they will not go near government on the coattails of the Labour Party and the Corbyn's Labour Party. Yes we do need a coalition but the Labour Party is the coalition the Labour Party is a broad church. That doesn't mean that you don't strike deals or you have a good understanding with people like Caroline Lucas here in Brighton from the Green Party with the Scottish National Party, absolutely, absolutely. But you draw a line somewhere and I think that the line needs to be drawn on the question of austerity and on the question of property rights. Anyone who challenges the need to reverse decades of austerity and anybody who challenges the need to shift property rights from the few to the many should simply have no place in such a coalition. So you're reversing privatisation the Liberal Democrats disagree? They're out. Let them, you know, hobnob with Johnson. They deserve it. It's interesting because I was speaking to Vince Cable yesterday but he's not a Lib Dem he's just a nice guy who fell off the cart of the Lib Dems. Well that's the thing, probably Vince Cable before the financial crisis, during the financial crisis. Ask him to join the Labour Party. Well he can't now because he's obviously destroyed his perfectly decent reputation. But what was interesting was, look, and he was talking about proportional representation, getting rid of the House of Lords, all the constitutional measures you've talked about and I said the only way you're ever going to deliver on this is with the Labour-led government and yet your successor, Joseph Swinson, has said categorically she won't work with Jeremy Corbyn. And his predecessor, Nick Clegg, went to the bed with David Cameron and pulled poor Vince Cable into a government that was implementing the worst kind of austerity. The tripling of students fees and so on and so forth. So in the end we are responsible for our deeds. But what I want to ask really is when you have even a relatively principled Liberal like Vince Cable and he's talking about all these things but it seems to me the Liberal Democrats don't even really care about electoral reform. All we need to do is, if I were at Jeremy I would bump him up to the House of Lords and ask him to sit with the Labour peers. What do you think it says more generally about Liberalism today? I suppose that's the last question. It's dead. It's a dead ideology. I mean, not Liberalism. The Liberals Liberalism. Because they betrayed it. They introduced, Nick Clegg was responsible for introducing hugely anti-liberal legislation. Legislation that denied people, people in their own remand, their basic habea corpus rights. So when the Liberal Party, it's a bit like Syriza and Greece. When the coalition of the radical left cuts the lowest pensions there are, privatizes everything and imposes huge stringent austerity. It seems to be, it's not that the left has failed. It's not that the socialism has died as an idea. It's that this party is no longer able to be counted as part of the left. Similarly, I mean, I think that Liberalism is always going to be with us. And I have a libertarian stake in me. And I think that Karl Marx had one too. You can't be a believer in the emancipation of the working class of women, of blacks, of minorities and not be a liberal. Emancipation is a liberal and even libertarian project. But the Lib Dems have abandoned Liberalism a long time ago. So you think that people that believe in those values who would think themselves liberals just joined the Labour Party? Yes, indeed. Well, on that note, it's a grand coalition but it's also all inside one party. Thank you very much. Thank you. And I hear you've got a book out next year on science fiction. Yes, I am writing a political science fiction treatise which is giving enormous pleasure. Because politics is a tough business and also quite soul-destroying. So you need to have something. For me, when I write my science fiction book which is actually taking place in Brighton in 2035. Wow! This is going to be a Netflix series in ten years time. Hey, I hope so. Suddenly I transport myself to another world and I am completely revived. On that note, I look forward to reading it next year. Thank you very much. Thank you.