 That's of course South Park and I have to say you know when South Park is on they are really really on still still to this day and I don't know why I thought it was fitting for this kind of strange but interesting discussion with author and radio host Alan Warren who I have almost nothing in common with but in the end I guess we do find some common ground we're like the opposite extreme of every question I ask him you know are you a biological robot meaningless universe he says yes you know conspiracies no you know extended consciousness no well first of all both the traditional church of Satan and the church of Satan have given me an honorary doctorate so if you want to talk about satanic worship and what's real and what isn't it's all man made hopefully we all want the same thing in the end right we all just want to be happy live a good life and enjoy our freedom I hope that's what we want and and with that yeah there's going to be bumps along the way but I don't see why we need to bring down other people and hurt other people by the way Alan is who can welcome to Skepticoe where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics I'm your host Alex to cares and today we welcome Alan Warren to Skepticoe Al is a best-selling author so many many books amazing I mean above suspicion blood thirst and vampire killer of Canada I could just go on and on that many many books best sellers he's also the host and producer of very popular NBC news talk radio true crime history conspiracy show house of mystery so he's really very interesting guy and we're just chatting a minute ago about this interview because it's one of these that kind of took a twist as the more I got into Al stuff because at first glance I was like wow this guy is into a lot of the same stuff I am and then he was nice enough to do this little survey questionnaire thing that I've been doing and lo and behold we are like we're like the opposite extreme of every question I ask him you know are you a biological robot meaningless universe he says yes you know conspiracies no you know extended consciousness no so so one of the things I thought would be cool I know it's a long intro but I want to set people up for this you know at this time at this particular time when people can't even dialogue can't even sit in the same room and say you know you know what do you believe that's okay here's what I believe it might be interesting to explore two things one hopefully demonstrate that we can do that a little bit but also maybe explore how you do that how you do that without giving up your you know sense of self enough to say yeah but here's where I think the facts lie so that very long lengthy introduction it is really a great pleasure to welcome you to the show Al thank you so much for joining me oh it's my pleasure I I look forward to it well we'll see what you say in an hour no it'll be fine you know like I was saying before you know it's not exchanging ideas should not be an angry emotional thing you know the idea of freedom and America and freedom of speech and that whole thing is that we exchange ideas that we do have differences and that you know we we stay true to one thing and that is the actual freedom so you know I it you know at the end of the day you might not agree with a lot of what I say and I might not agree with you but the thing is at the end of the day we're both still here and there's just no I just don't understand all the anger that people have in their conversations and and even political when they get out there I just I don't understand why there's so much emotion right now do you think because I'm gonna jump right to one of the things that I suspect is that a lot of that is engineered if you will and I say that word very carefully and that you know I think we all know how to push each other's buttons right we can do it you know you're a smart guy and I've heard enough of your interviews you don't push buttons and anyone who doesn't push buttons or probes in a way knows how to do it and I think collectively it's just a given I mean turn on the news I mean we know how to push buttons so do you think some of this is engineered oh for sure I agree with that totally except for the engineering isn't always for the same reason and isn't always for by the same people so you know a lot of it is political but it's that's not what it's all about you know so we have to be careful not to generalize and say that might be a lot of the problem just to say oh all of one group it's it's the agenda of so-and-so and to pick a group and to always just and to lump everybody in that same group is the first problem because we're all very unique and we all have different experiences and so for me to just say that let's say you know even say something like you always just a conspiracy he's just he's just whatever what is the point of lumping someone in without hearing them out because there's going to be a lot of details you can pass on to me that I'm not going to get from anybody else so again you know I'm back to that same thing yes some of it is engineered but isn't it also our responsibility to to make herself aware and make herself a little bit more intuitive and more intelligent and and understand things you know try to really listen and kind of go well you know you know where that's coming from and just kind of walk by you know we don't have to absorb all of this stuff you know there's two things that you said there that I think really deserve to be pulled apart one is to kind of have the discernment to say I'm being played and I won't be played I won't be manipulated in that way whether it's you know and again we got to be get down to specifics or it just all sounds you know kind of airy-fairy out there so you know if like the way I like to do it like I could talk black lives matter you know but that's gonna be too hot or I could talk the planet that's gonna be too hot what I've been talking about on the show for the last year is Gloria Steinem right because she kind of popped up in this latest they did I think it was Netflix where we did a really great show on it and she's an interesting kind of person but historically Gloria Steinem has been outed she outed herself well first she was outed as being CIA and then she was confronted with it and she had to acknowledge it she had to say well yeah I was CIA but that's okay because you know they really aren't the bad guys you think they are and really needed to do it for the movement and all the rest of that and then if you further deconstruct that like we have and you go look at the evidence you go look at her former bosses at the CIA it really her story doesn't really add up she's she's massaging the story in that she was CIA from get from jump not just it's not like she was a feminist who used the CIA to advance her cause she was a CIA operative who was then assigned to be a feminist this is disclosed in documents from her operatives and from her operator bosses at the CIA that she did this right so that puts a completely different spin on what that means and you know I spoke with a woman up just really I really like and respect her and she was the former head and founder of the women's studies program at Cal State Chico which is besides being a good party school also a good enough school good academically and she was really cool and very open to hearing that information because it was very new to her and was obviously outside of what she wanted to kind of go and her first reaction is the reaction that a lot of women who are attached to that movement say it's like I don't care you know the women's movement needed to happen and so the CIA was involved I don't care it needed to happen and on one level I totally get that because it did need to happen my mother didn't have any opportunities other than just be a wife or be a nurse maybe but it didn't fit her you know she was into jazz she was into she was an artist it didn't fit her at all and she was in this box and she was really struggling to get outside of that box things are different now things are better now in Gloria Stein and help make that happen but can we really accept that a group of CIA guys engineered and ran that program covertly and can we really accept that Gloria Stein them never really came clean she still hasn't come clean on it all the way it's only as the information rolls out does she give a little bit more and a little bit more so that's that's my little speech on that one that I think applies to all these things because the way it applies to black lives matter is there a real issue in terms of racism in our country absolutely you know is that something that we need to you know take time and deep thought on absolutely is it somehow a game that's being engineered and run just like Gloria Stein and was being engineered and run absolutely fricking Lutley okay I I listen to that but I'm not sure I'm not sure what you want me to say about it we'll see that's a great point but go ahead do you have anything else to say about that no because in essence you you might be right I think that you know I don't know enough about Gloria Stein them to really comment but as far as black life lives matter you know if they so it's your your contention that they were engineered from before they even became a movement or is this something that sort of happened let's go back to Gloria Stein because there was an interesting moment in this conversation that gets back to what I was talking about at the beginning of how these conversations go how these dialogues kind of run afoul I guess I feel like it's like I just told you facts you can go look up those facts you can go look up the documents you can go look up the interview where Gloria Stein says herself she was in the CIA that's out there on YouTube you can watch it her own lips she's moving she's saying that so we could pause this interview if you want and we can come back two days later and you can go you can go back up and see if everything I'm saying is true but my experience is people don't want to do that because they don't want to they don't really don't want their beliefs to change they don't want to deal with the question that I posed which is do you want the CIA running the women's movement you know and how far do you want to go to say well gee if the CIA is involved that changes everything for me well I think I think no I I don't have a belief in anything that would change whether Gloria Steinem was right in with the CIA from the from birth or not I'm I just like to in fact I would probably want to know more about it in the sense of when did she join why did she join was it part of just a couple of members was there an agenda by the whole organization like I'd like to know more details on the background rather than and it's not that I don't believe you it's it's more about first of all more bat more background what what was the agenda and and also what is it that works that you think we should do now today in 2020 about what Gloria Steinem did in the 60s and her involvement with the CIA then like what is what's our what's our outcome how are we going to make this better and what do you what do you want to happen well so in the first part of that again when you're getting hit with this stuff you know like I am and there's no reason you would you would know this unless you've done this kind of obscure conspiratorial research which everyone needs to do and that's where you need to start and we've been conditioned and trained not to do that not to look at the other side so you'll go find these documents you'll go find these interviews you'll go find the people in the feminist movement who first outed Gloria Steinem that's how she got outed by fellow feminists who said this is faux feminism this is someone co-opting our movement that's how she came out that's how she was outed but the part that you you kind of skipped over it's not like they recruited members of the feminist movement that is they the CIA Gloria Steinem from the time she was in college was identified as someone who the CIA was going to work with so they gave her a fellowship they gave her money they gave her her first job was infiltrating like student organizations and music movements and you can actually go read the memos from her bosses who come back and go wow this this woman is a superstar man she is the thing you know so all that was before feminism but let's just put that as a maybe what i'm saying is true thing and get your second question i don't know i don't know but i think it's completely fundamental to uh because it's fundamental to what we believe about our government about how social justice works about how social change works it's fundamental to all of that so until we answer those questions until we wrestle something like that to the ground factually we can't answer the second part of that question well then i'll leave it up to you to figure this out i'm just not sure well i'm not sure exactly what where you want to go with this i'm not sure what i'm trying to think what you exactly want to to achieve i'm just not sure um if all you say is true then i'm just not sure it is it's a how are you relating this to 2020 well the first way it relates to 2020 is that we we still don't have the history straight we're doing Netflix specials that tell a different a different history and i think most people in this country would have a different feeling about feminism the woman i told you who you know is the head of the woman's study at chico state this would be very very relevant to her work to a woman's studies department at at any university so it's something that does need to be understood and it's see that's where i i don't feel like we're really engaging here because it's obviously extremely relevant right well i'm i'm i'm i'm not sure what part of it that you're you're trying to to address is it that is not written in history properly and that um places like netflix is not really giving us the full story um or whoever else writes or talks about any of that sort of stuff i'm just trying to figure out what what your point is trying to address um like who who is it that who is it that should do what well i mean gloria steinem was a cia operative and she was the one running the women's movement okay that doesn't change your paradigm your worldview about social justice about social movements about how things change like we started this discussion about talking about engineering that doesn't change your worldview regarding how what we think we know is engineered no because um i believe a lot of things have been engineered a lot of things have been pushed a lot of agendas have been achieved and some haven't but i don't know 50 years later um it's all done and i don't believe that there's a current uh like as people would say a deep state that runs the world a global i i i'm not an alex jones guy so i can't go that far you know if this in this particular case she might have been you know let's say you're 100 right she was exactly what you say she was um that's cool let's go with that um but it's a done deal it's passed yeah there should be more information that comes out about it now because it's so long ago i don't know what difference it would make for a lot of people in the public uh because i think the the goal was achieved and most people agree with what the outcome was so i'm kind of not out of i'm just trying to figure out where where you're trying to connect this yeah there's things engineered it doesn't change my point of view at all if i find out things like this or a hundred percent true i'm not surprised america this is what america has been all about as far as i'm concerned and as i get older it becomes more and more about it and i don't think it's changed and i don't think it's going to change in our lifetime so um so i'm i think that we have to like you said we have to be more specific so when you take a specific case like gloria steinem you also have to have a specific remedy we also have to have this is what we need to do with gloria steinem this is how we need to talk this has to come out that's all fair enough um but i don't automatically change the whole the whole world as it is now it doesn't make me feel any different about cia well how do you feel about cia because it seemed to me what you said to me there's a contradiction between saying and i hear this all the time in people who are like anti conspiracy theory which is kind of like on its on its face is just kind of ridiculous because we all accept that there are these conspiracies we run into them all the time you know i mean that's how the world works particularly if you come from the business world like i did everything in businesses everything is a conspiracy you know it's like worried about your hotdog buns if you're mcdonald's you know it's like everything that involves any kind of money or power is a conspiracy why would it be any different politics why would it be any different in intelligence organizations but you know it seemed like to me like it was started off by saying well i don't believe this deep state nonsense well glorious time is an example of deep deep state it's a hidden force that's decided to step on the playing field in order to engineer socially engineer our beliefs and our values jesus you can't get any more deep state than that so you either push against it and go well that's bullshit it didn't really happen that way but if it did then you're in the deep state soup it's just a matter of whether you think the deep state is okay or not no because that's a generalization because as soon as you take an event like this then all of a sudden everybody uses deep state anytime people have an anger which most do about something they direct that toward an outside entity rather than inward which is really where it is so you know this man-made thing of being a deep state as a general thing we don't know so all of a sudden the deep state does everything that we don't like and that's what it that's where it becomes because it's not specific enough rather than saying cia agents in the 1960s infiltrated and did something with gloria steinham to create some sort of engineered event to to do something that's specific i i believe in specific things but i don't think it's a general group that all of a sudden it's like a membership we have this membership and you know and it's really really bizarre to me that the deep state is always made out of rich liberals and it's laughable like everybody from bill gates to you name it if they're on if they're a liberal and they've got money then they're obviously part of the deep state and they're globalists they want to kill people they want to reduce they want to make us not be able to have children there's it just goes on and on and on and that if you're from the business world you know that's absolutely absurd because there's there's as many or more conservative rich people that try to control our deep state things as any liberal so it's it's just it's just a fallacy that whole thing is too general and that's my issue with it it's not that there isn't people doing things we're not specific it's like it's like when people say well libtards or they call republicans they they call both sides names and i look at things and i thought well you can't generalize and say all people of one specific area or one specific race or sexual identity or anything is is now all of a sudden something and that's what it's become it's not it's not we're not relying on facts we're relying on how we feel about a person's lifestyle or politics or image and that's ridiculous you know at pizza gate pedophile hollywood they're all that way like you hear all of these things rather than specifics rather than a specific event with evidence so that's my issue well you must hang around different groups that different deep state researchers than i do because i don't know anyone who looks at the deep state and thinks it's liberal or i mean most of the people i know who look at that are completely apolitical like i am i like no not at all well alex jones down you name you name a person around the alex jones six million followers that whole group that is an even coast to coast please george norrie that whole empire is all red and you love you'll never hear a negative derogatory you find one interview on that that show about a conservative anywhere in the world or them being part of any manipulation or any sort of negative terrible event happening everything is caused by someone george soros is probably the biggest one you know ex-nazi you know but he's behind you know everything false flags school shootings that never happened crisis actors you get into all this generalization and hurt a lot of people but it's always always about politics that's where you're mistaken if you're around people that are not then i don't i don't know you must have an exclusive unit that i've never come across well i've just been doing a ton of interviews and there's a bunch of people i just interviewed steven slider i just interviewed well but you put in i just interviewed you just talked about what i said with millions of followers not thousands we're talking about alex jones the jim marr's the coast to coast and you find out this is you're doing you're doing exactly that's the majority but you're doing exactly what you're railing against you're kind of identifying one one person and you're generalizing that that what the so alex jones has a particular set of political beliefs so what the idea of a of deep state if he's co-opted that in some way for you that you can't think otherwise that's fine but i'm telling you you know you look at a lot of this stuff in the deep state where that really took traction was with 9 11 9 11 was was they were all republicans right george bush uh dick cheney they were republican as they can get and i've talked about the pizza gate thing for years first of all what a lot of people don't understand about pizza gate and i want to get on and talk about michael schermer and consciousness because this is like they're like 300 chosen consciousness i don't really talk about this other political stuff but my consciousness research which do you think you're a biological robot and meaning this universe and consciousness doesn't exist and you're a master's in music and that's why you think michael schermer knows science i'm going to show you in a minute that it's he completely doesn't know what he doesn't he's not a good scientist he's a phd in history but he's a good guy you know here's my point though back on on on the other point of you know alex jones and the and the the 9 11 truthers right they were all against george bush they were all against dick cheney they were all against the the the the opposite people and when pizza gate happened pizza gate was a conspiracy it was a political scyop against john pedesta the goal was to sink hillary clinton by releasing these emails i mean if you don't believe otherwise you can tell me but when they release 400 highly explosive emails four days before a presidential election do you think that's accident that they're released four days do you do you think that the fact that the the emails are particularly sensitive to uh christian to the christian voting block and are really going to make them oh my god we can't let this satanist hillary and her satanist friends in there do you think that's an accident or do you think that's a conspiracy no of course it is but it kind of goes along with what i'm saying well it's a conspiracy though right al it's a conspiracy sure okay so then i'm not anti conspiracy i i just think that it has to be more specific when we talk and and i don't like generalizations because the majority of conspiracy thinkers on the right come from the alex jones coast to coast empire that's millions of people and they all subscribe to this idea they all subscribe to this well they're they're certainly following they pay money every month or every year to follow these people to listen to their shows to buy their products whatever else they do so they're invested in that and all i'm saying is that's a huge chunk of them now there's just as bad on the left with all this canceled culture and and offensive stuff that's just as bad i'm not saying it isn't but what i'm saying is we have to be more specific about certain things we can't just generalize and say well of course it's the deep state but the same deep state that's affecting hillary because of these pizza gate emails is not the same deep state that does other things that's sort of what i'm getting at there's more specifics to these cases and we have to be more specific about who we're accusing of what and what is realistic about what is but what are the specifics of the pizza gate emails that you know because you took a position that i've heard so many people who have been kind of brainwashed into thinking that pizza gate is about a guy going into a pizza restaurant and shooting a computer and what pizza gate is really about what the original term came from was the emails themselves so what do you know and what do you think about the emails and what do you think i mean now it's not it's it's all revealed about the the pedophile rings and the satanic ritual abuse you know i interviewed on this show anakalucus a woman who it's ridiculous it's all ridiculous it's people that have mental issues it's as simple as that there is no satanic rituals cooking babies if someone's coming on and saying that most of them have a screw loose but you can listen to my interview with anakalucus i would waste my time well but here's the point here's the point now here's the point these people are nuts and you know it you know it these people are completely insane again my bro my bro let me let me educate you a little bit because i do research for interview people anakalucus you know the reason her story fits is because it fits in belgium in the dutro case which made news it was in the headlines for years in belgium because it was a major case some of the kids in the ritual abuse ring actually died because they had this guy in prison and he wasn't able to go feed these kids who he had locked up in cages he wasn't able to feed him and they died so they have all this stuff in pictures in photos that ran in magazines and newspapers in belgium this has all been been outed and there's testimony on it so your your quick reaction that it's all bullshit is stands in contrast to some of the things we know so the part that i think the line that you're taking which really gets into the consciousness part is you're saying okay i get that some people do horrible things but since we're all biological robots in a meaningless universe there can't be any entities out there that are influencing these people or any of the rest that even though that's what they say you're saying no no put it put a lid on that because that doesn't sound like anything i'm willing to accept and that's going to get us to suremer but go ahead comment on that first well first of all both the traditional church of satan and the church of satan have given me an honorary doctrine so if you want to talk about satanic worship and what's real and what isn't it's all man made you know it's it's christian satan is a is a fixture used by christians if you're if you're a satanist worshiping and cooking children or any sort of insane behavior you're a christian simple there's nothing more there's nothing less it's ridiculous to think anything other and that is all man made it doesn't exist and and and so you know if you believe that evil is born in and there's actual um you know satan as a character and and jesus christ was our savior and this is all real then you're open to all of that stuff and that is completely ridiculous i don't believe any of that none of that is true if you want to get into spiritual and near death and and afterlife yeah sure there's all possibilities that's a totally different thing than a man made everything from Mormons to christians to jews it's all man made because there's a terrible fear we have of death and and and a whole lot of other things involved too much to talk about in an hour but that belief is out the door it's craziness you know it's like when i went on ghost hunts with ed and lorraine warn who of course my last name's warn so if you get the connection it's ridiculous when there's stepson's like if you're not a christian you can't come on a ghost hunt because you cannot connect well that's ridiculous what a stupid thing to say and what a stupid belief so if you want to get into that yeah i'll tell you um i've had lots of experience in both ends i've been on plenty of ghost hunts ghost shows um so yeah there's a connection there is something after our life we are uh uh you know uh just uh meat uh but i i tell you just start hold on right there right there sort sort that out for me so first of all i'm not a christian no i share a lot of your uh beliefs about you know when we talk about control and social engineering i mean that's the original right there you know but let's not get into that too much there's a contradiction in what you just said el you know you can't say well i mean you can say whatever you want but you can't say well i'm down with the after death thing well then you're down with the idea that there is this extended consciousness when i asked you the survey question you said no we're biological robots in a meaningless universe so which which one is it is there this extended consciousness realm where these for lack of a better term spirit entities these extended outside of space and time entities exist or is is there not because michael schermer who will play the clip for a minute because he's so badly flubbed the near-death experience research believes that there is no such possible thing as an extended consciousness that survives after death that is just verboten and our scientific community that that is holding to that idea will not let go of scientific materialism so you're you've got me confused here with this do you believe that there is extended consciousness or you believe there isn't that it's all just biological robot meaningless universe well i think that it's it's both but i don't think it's an extended consciousness as you call it i don't think that we exist as we are after we die i think something happens i think we change just like everything so when we're dead we're something else it's not all of this it's not all of this creation of you know oh we're ghosts and we're coming back and we're going to haunt you and we're going to do this or it's not a religion that's not any of that i think that it's we are part of something that science hasn't got their hands on yet but you know our meat bodies die and yeah there is something after we go on but i'm not i'm not believing we go on as we are now like you and i are talking and having this conversation we're using our mind and we're talking but after we're dead this is this doesn't exist anymore but what does exist i'm not sure i'm not saying it's an end michael schirmers on the on a like a lot of people i know or on the when it ends it's over lights out done just like unplugging your computer and and throwing it in the bathtub it's done that's how he feels i feel there's something else i feel we're still something i'm just not sure what and and i'm not i'm just not jumping i used to believe in a lot of things over the years but i'm just not so easy to jump anymore because there's just no evidence of any of it so i guess that's probably the best way i can explain it that's fair i i don't think i have any firm ideas about what it is either i i can't exactly you know i can't get back to what you're saying about it's absolutely not this and that it's absolutely not satanic again i get your point technically about satan and him being i have a whole chapter in my book about how satan slips through your fingers historically when you look back he doesn't even exist in the original kind of pre-tora stories and then he just pops in there after zori astra and that is the history of that anyone who's christian or has a a belief that all this stuff is satanic you just have to look at the history it doesn't make any sense i'm not though a close to the idea that evil exists that malevolent forces exist it's just too widely reported across every culture that we've ever looked at and the the the vision we have of that now the michael schermer kind of strict materialism is purely in a recent invention invention that doesn't hold up to scrutiny so if i can because i told you i would and we're running out of time let me play a clip from my interview with schermer michael schermer that is the creator editor of skeptic magazine and like i said one of my favorite enemies favorite frenemies because i like his vibe i like talking to the guy and we had it i've interviewed him three times and we always have a good chat he just fails miserably at the science which i find over and over again for these science types they don't really understand the science they just kind of like a tv actor pretend they do here's a clip from schermer at the books i went to the index and i said okay here are all the near-death experience researchers i've talked to are they in there no name after name after name none of them in there you know a couple years ago i interviewed jan holton from the university of north texas along with bruce dr bruce grason from the university of virginia two of the most prominent names in near-death experience research they compiled this book the handbook of near-death experiences mainly for people in the medical community so that when they encounter someone who comes up out of a cardiac arrest and said hey i had this incredible experience they can be at least familiar with what to tell them at the time they published this book michael in 2009 they had over a hundred peer-reviewed papers that they included in their book by now there's over 200 peer-reviewed papers okay i don't see any of that in your book i think it's a part we'll make it well look yeah i don't have to cite everybody that's ever written on the subject but you don't cite any of them you don't cite pen van lommel sam carnea who else yeah yeah yeah you misrepresented both of them but you at least cited them but anyway uh let's back up for a second and and um this i'd have to say you know evin alexander i want to talk about him but technically he's not a near-death experience researcher okay enough of that thanks for hanging with me this guy doesn't know the science and yet so many people who are just drawn to this idea that all this near-death experience stuff is a bunch of baloney they just are sucked in by this guy when people have directly contradicted them i mentioned pen van lommel doctor pen van lommel radio or a cardiologist hardly regarded cardiologist he called schermer out and said you completely misrepresented my research in scientific american and schermer's response was well that was my interpretation of it you have the the researcher the scientists say no you just kind of said the opposite of what i said he goes well that's just my opinion you know i guess we'll agree to disagree this is where science is at today and so many people just get just get snowed over by it because they want to believe that the near-death experience is baloney or they want to believe that you know there can be none of these extended realms kind of things so i laid a lot on the table there tell me what you think well you know um when i died i felt nothing i have no memory of it so that's all i got to go by i've had three heart attacks in my lives and and one of them i died i really can't tell you anything about it other than when i woke up so that that's my personal experience and that's affected me in the sense that that's what i know everything else is just people talking some people believe that uh there's something that goes on and some people believe not uh or don't believe me i'm sorry you know i don't know i just know with me i didn't there was nothing and it also a lot of the near-death experience people i've talked to um on interviews have always told me it seems like if you have a particular belief or a particular i don't want to say always religion but some sort of faith um that's what people see you know a lot of people claim they've they've met jesus or they meet meet whoever or whatever thing they're sort of into it's sort of how how they they represent themselves as being near-death and people that are atheists quite often see darkness so i don't know how can we explain that is is that something our body and mind does um it's possibility i i i think that's i think it's a big question i i just don't see definite i understand what shirmer's saying um what do you think shirmer's saying i think shirmer's saying that that's it he can he can he compares us the human to uh computer you know um when you talk to him more about how the mind operates i think you can understand him better you know he doesn't he doesn't believe things he's wrong it's no no actually some of his points are right you know the idea that you know when we look at something and we think we see something we don't always see it um sometimes our mind fills in the blanks and this is true and and i think he questions a lot of what people claim that they have seen and felt and i've seen it live look at look at you know you go back to the the first planes the orville brothers and how when that was coming out and how many people reported seeing these flying machines and they weren't it wasn't possible but there's a lot to say about how powerful our mind is and i think it's so it's a long way from us really understanding how much it it it if it does and so i think at this point in our lives i think there's room for both people you know you can have shirmer saying no we're dead that's it lights out and you can have people like saying oh no you know there's something after and and neither one of them i don't know how we could say either one of them is a hundred percent it's just one of those things that at this point we just have to keep moving forward and trying to understand and and figuring out more i don't know i guess we just kind of go on to say i mean i can't well because one of the things you said at the beginning was that you said you've looked at the science for three years i've looked at the science too i've probably looked at more near-death experience science and you have just because that's what i became interested in because it gets to this question of science more directly i mean it gets to this question of consciousness more directly but i would have to say that i think science and this is from a guy who wrote a book why science is wrong about almost everything because it's really a book about consciousness and how if you don't if you have a materialistic science materialism view of science and you're not factoring in consciousness then you just really aren't doing the best science that we know and you're off but the the point is i think we have to do better than kind of what you're saying there i mean we have to lean on science a little bit we have to be able to call bullshit on schermer as nice as he is and as congenial as he is yeah but yeah but let's say it's a science say schermer when when you're talking about near-death experience research and one of the leading researchers says you're full of shit that you have a problem there that you need to fix yeah but what is near-death research and and in the fact that you know when you're dead you're dead if it's people that have come back that have died or come back such as myself they're you know you can talk to a lot of people but you're still going by what they say they're they're witnessing and and and there's a lot of problems with that i think i don't know no no no misunderstanding isn't there a center no but isn't there a center we are in a physical world you know there are certain things we science is dictating the physical world is it does not telling it we learn things from trial and error and we get better and better at certain things that's why we have so many things that we use that have been science-based it's a material thing you're you're trying to mix consciousness with materialism and i think they're two separate things unless you think this whole world is just all part of our consciousness it's not real and and then see then then you're not going to get along with people like Sharma because there's no way they're going to accept that that's i think that's simple that's sort of my way of being in the middle because i i think i think to be honest i like hearing from both sides and i and i think it's great i i don't want to create enemy so there's things i i like on both sides i just just uh and i can't say what what the real answer is is is this whole physical thing that we're in just part of our our brain our mind do we just do you know what i'm saying i just i do know what you're saying and you make excellent points it was really hard to to argue with someone who wants to know more like you do and saying i want to listen to all sides like you like you do and like your shows a testament to that i mean you have on you know one of my favorite books dr mary's monkey you know you've interviewed so many of these guys i'll interview everybody and i'll go into great detail and and and quite often i'll have someone sit in on the interview that that works with that particular field and and writes in that field and and even if i don't agree with them because it's it's a conversation that you have and it's what you come comes out of that conversation i think these people are are great for the most part um i love almost all of them there's a few that kind of but you know that's just a thing you know sometimes you just don't click and you know i can't think of too many off hand um but there's been a few i know but these these people are great shane ols Sullivan was great hb hank al plarelli you know he passed away but you know i love that guy um you know i i just i can't say enough about him now um judith bake baker i could take her leave but that's a different one but she's really she's really interesting to me but yeah she is you know i want to stop right there and say i i respect that so much because i find that very very hard to do and people who can do that particularly you know you're a highly regarded influencer in that area and your ability to have those and to be able to say hey i genuinely like that person and i didn't really agree with what they're saying but i'd like them as a person boy doesn't that circle back around to what we're saying at the beginning in terms of maybe what we need to kind of connect with in order to change this kind of you know situation we're in but did you have any more thoughts on that i'm just saying well you know i will say that i was brought up in canada and so i was raised that way you got to respect people you got to take them and respect them you got to treat them like you want to be treated it sounds cliche but the reality is you know i'm really interested in a lot of these things there's certain things a lot of them i don't know so you bring these people on that that have these ideas and you talk to them for an hour or two hours you know and and it's great you know i don't have to agree with them i don't have to i'm not i'm not living with them i'm not getting married it's just you know i i don't see what the big anger thing is i don't understand why people get so so into all this stuff and it's like you know at the end of the day like i said i've talked to all those people we're still here he's they're all still there and we get along really well out you know so i i don't know what the big deal is i don't have to agree like we don't have to both like chocolate ice cream to be friends you know what i'm saying so i don't i i just don't see why people hate each other because they don't don't agree i mean that's just me but uh you know i think that's very very very profound actually and i think it's i know you're not super spiritual guy but i think there is something incredibly spiritual about the worst deal here part you know i mean because one of the things i think is that or i try and focus on is that i don't know what your journey is i don't know what your journey has been up to now to get you to this point and i don't know what your future journey is going to be in five years you might call me up and go oh my god alex i thank you i know i've seen the light and i agree but i might call i might do likewise i might call you up and go oh al i'm so embarrassed but thank you for not being you know for being nice and kind to me so it's we don't know we're just still here like you like you say you're so beautiful and there's so many people that i've i've got along with so well for so many years that um if we get into certain subjects we're just on opposite ends but you know you just love them i had a co-host for i think four years of the show that came from alex jones and i just love this guy to bits he's completely opposite of me jewish mary the just the whole the whole nine yards and but i couldn't love a person anymore and and the thing is that's the whole idea it's about the person it's about it's about getting to know the people and like i said he can live and he can go to the synagogue he can do his thing and and and and believe in his thing and i can too and that's the great part of being in america you know canada a lot of these countries and that's the great thing we have this this this this incredible life to be able to do this but you know to cut them off because because he jewish or to or to cut someone off it's like that's ridiculous you miss out because they they can make your life so much better they enrich your life i think it's i think i i think people are missing out by narrowing themselves to a certain tribe and that's it you know everybody else is bad you know oh i so so agree with that about the narrowing and missing out al what's coming up for you on the on the show we got some interesting interviews coming up and i i gotta believe you're working on probably a half dozen books at the same time what's coming up on that front always well yeah you know i've got well i you know i i'm doing a series of a lot of those interviews that you've seen like so i've just done like the jfk the interview so i i pick out the highlights of the interviews and go through all the main theories and i've covered that with the zodiac jfk and i'm going to be doing rfk just some of the big events that i've had over 10 years that you know i've talked to everyone like i said from roger stone to you name it about a lot of these subjects and i just kind of and i give everybody an equal platform and kind of point out the the the good things that we get from all at the end of the day um so that you can have a reference to the interviews and kind of the ideas and where people get it from so that's i've been working on that a lot so um that's where i'm at now and my last book came out murder time six and it's done it's been doing really well and i met the murderer so that's probably why so you have a bunch of a bunch of true crime and a serial killer kind of stuff uh what what do people find most interesting in those books what books are are most popular in that genre well the uh you know people love to hear from a killer for some reason right now i i'm more when i write the book i yeah i tell you what happened but i'm not into the gory details so if you're looking for you know this gore faster you're not going to get it i i'm more about um what happens to people and the justice system so when we get like this last book was really about um a man that killed six people a family and now he's up for for parole and and what the family goes through every year and a half to go to these parole meetings and what what our justice system has done in the in the sense of if you if you're not part of it you don't you don't understand it so it's just kind of all angles i'm kind of you know and this how this this killers married someone he's he's in prison for murdering six people including two children which he raped six or no nine and eleven and and he's married a woman now with two children from her previous marriage just just just the yeah just the whole outlook of what goes on in in uh in in justice and that's probably why um people like that sort of thing right now um but like i said they're not gore fasts or it's more about the whole the big picture well it's it's really cool as you know is evidenced by this research or this discussion we've had today how you can hold these seemingly contradictory ideas and happenings you know and and hold them and contrast them and we really really need that nowadays don't we yeah i don't know why we can't why do we have to have the definite answer why do we need to you know and some things for sure but why do we need to um you know just say this is that period and get and over and because we have a lot of these things we don't we can't say that not with a hundred percent confidence so i think that um god just just keep on moving keep on trucking you know you're you're alive and and you got your mind you've got your health let's just uh keep keep doing it doing the right thing and just uh that's all i can say we go forward and hopefully it all turns out and you sound in way way too spiritual for listen well you don't need you don't need to have um a belief in a a religion in order to be spiritual right on because just in mediation just yeah mediation yeah because you know things that you know one thing i did learn from shimmer i will say was that we don't need to have that um people can be good and people can care about other people without believing in a god and and he said that to me once about three four years ago and and that really stuck with me it's one of the few things that stuck with me um from him but it's true because you know you know you can honestly care about other people and what happens to other people and helping others and doing good things without uh i don't need to go to church every Sunday you know i don't need to wear my Mormon underwear i mean that in the nicest way i got you know you don't have to be nice sit on that one hey our guest again has been alan r warren as in alanarwarren.com you can check out all of his books on amazon very easy to find because he is such a prominent author and check out house of mystery radio show it's been just great talking to you alan so glad we persisted on this interview i hope people appreciate you know what we're trying to do here and bring in two people who seem to disagree and finding out we don't really disagree is kind of a cool thing isn't it yeah we all we hopefully we all want the same thing in the end right we all just want to be happy live a good life and enjoy our freedom i i hope that's what we want and and with that yeah there's going to be bumps along the way but i i don't see why we need to bring down other people and hurt other people we just need to keep on helping you know nice nice i sound corny don't i it's inside a sermon we're gonna put up we're gonna put a bible in your hand when you start our own little church here that's right that's right that's right no okay get away with free tax there you go and and no masks yeah there you go double hey al thank you so much and uh talk soon yeah thank you very much take care you too thanks again to alan mourn for joining me on skeptico the one question it from this interview is what do you do personally to make it more possible to talk with people who you don't agree with fundamentally kind of on these kind of fundamental issues what techniques have you found to be personally effective i'd like to know i'd really like to know and i'd love for you to join me on the skeptical forum and tell me what your answers are that so do that if you're feeling kind do stick around i have some i think pretty good shows coming up until next time take care bye for now