 All right, welcome to the Monday, April 15, 2024 development review board meeting for the city of Montpelier. Meredith will briefly go over remote meeting procedures and then we'll get started. All this will, you guys know the drill Brian and Joe do. So I'm going to share my screen is that one. I've got to make that small. Okay, well, there's somebody coming in. Okay, so for anyone viewing tonight's development review board meeting via Orca media, you can participate via the zoom platform through either video or telephone access options. If you want to join the full zoom meeting experience, both seeing us and seeing you, you can type this link into your web browser. And I'll get a message that you want to be let in and do so. Alternatively, you can dial this phone number 929-205-6099. And when prompted put in this meeting IZ. Again, I'll get a notice that you want to come into the meeting and let you in. 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If you dialed in on the phone, you can use star nine to have a little hand pop up and we'll be able to see that over zoom. In the event the public is unable to access this meeting, it will be continued to a time and place certain. Thank you. Is that it? Yeah, I'm going to hand this meeting back over to the chair. Sorry, I couldn't see. It's like, I think we're done. Yeah. To cut your off. No, no, no. And for people who come in in person, if you could sign in on the sign in sheet, that would be great. So I guess I'm first time looking for the motion to approve the agenda. All those in favor. All right. Those against. Excellent. So we have two applications in front of us tonight, which is great. And I think that if we move right along and just, I think we should be able to get through both of them. And it doesn't look too tremendous to me. The first applicant is 14 Vine Street, which is Jamie Hansen. Are you Jamie? Hi. You can just have a seat right up there. And he's not, this is a sketch plan review, right? So he does not need to be sworn in, correct? Correct. That is what I got. Okay. Mary, just quick, quickie, quickie overview. Yeah. Yeah. So this is sketch plan review of a two parcel subdivision. So one parcel being divided into two where the one parcel will retain the existing structures and then the other parcel will be vacant with potential future development. Okay. And Jimmy, I'll have you describe it just a little bit. The one thing I did want to point out is that the house that is shown on that is not part of this. Correct. There's like a building shown on the. Now I'm confused. Which one? Oh, I don't think it's the existing structure, which. I'm like, what stage. I mean, I think Chris. Yeah. Yeah. Right. The proposed house. Right. That was, that's conceptual to show that. Right. But I just wanted to make sure that every box. Right. Yeah, that is, that's, that's not. We're not voting on that. We're not permitting that or anything else that I just wanted to point that out ahead of time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is the division of the land. Jamie, do you want to go ahead and just tell us a little bit about what you're doing and what you've got planned here? Yeah. Do make sure you're close to the microphone. Okay. Yeah, I guess originally that was a separate parcel. And I think back in the 29 flood. That house was. They never rebuilt it or. The house that I'm in now ended up buying that lot and it's been vacant ever since. So I'm interested in. Making it and its own lot and potentially. Developing it with another home. Okay. We do have it in the case of closed. To unit structure. Is that just conceptual at this point? Yeah, I think that ideally that's. If, if I was going to do something myself, I would probably do a duplex. If I choose to just sell the pot. Yeah, they can do a duplex. It's, it's, so they, they know that it's, they can do anything that the zoning. Right. Correct. Wow. Right. That piece of land flooded in 29. The dam was built. Yes. Interested in the part where FEMA are that. 27. 27. And it's just been moved out of the flood. Oh, the house has that Loma. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. So remember, Jimmy, did you file for the Loma or did somebody else file for it before you bought. We did something. Yeah. I'm not sure exactly. So the house itself. Is elevated enough so that FEMA sets it. That that's what that paperwork is the house is up above. The base flood elevation. And so it's under federal law. It's removed from the special flood hazard area, but that's just the existing house. If, if Jamie were to put an addition on that house, that house would have to. To comply with all of our existing floodplain regulations and actually be elevated more than the current houses. As would anything. As would anything new being built. Okay. I'm going through this. I guess that there was. Just kind of head through it from the beginning. The first thing that was on sort of my radar. Was the. Was the parking. That was the thing that looked to most. Most kind of up in the air and like off, off the chair. In terms of parking in terms of driveways with the 20 foot driveway. Oh, the driveway or the parking because they're two different. Okay. I'm in the driveway. Okay. Potential parking on is what I was thinking. Oh, okay. I was just trying to figure out what you were. So I can pull up the right thing on here. If we want to take a look at it. Right. So this is the driveway. So driveway minimums for the two units would be 24, I think. And you're at 20. Is your proposal. Say the last thing again. Yeah. So I think I think that the regulations copper 24 foot. And that you're proposing a 20 foot. Um, I think that there's some. Uh, I don't, I'm not sure. I can, if you want me to talk to us, we had a conversation, but I know the technical stuff a little more. Um, so this is about the V trans standards that I put in here. Yep. So, um, I've had some conversations with Corey line and, and Jamie and Corey and I will get together. So Corey line is our, our traffic management and road specialist. Um, for the department of public works the curb cut. If. The, when the new parcel gets developed, the curb cut for the shared drive, it would have to be a minimum of 24 feet. Cause once you go over to dwelling units, you have to apply apply the commercial driveway standards, but that's just for the curb cut. The driveway itself. It can be narrower and can be 20 feet. Um, but so if they're just. Whatever the ultimate easement is for. For the, the. Driveways going to have to take into account that 24 with four foot with curb cut, but that wouldn't have to be put in until some development happens. So. So. I think what I just understood you say is that if it were, for example, a single family house put on that, that it wouldn't need. No, it would because it's a shared driveway, one drive away serving. One curb cut serving three or more residences. It has to be 24 feet wide at the curb cut. Right. So. You know, I know, I think this happened with. A subdivision over on like North street. And so it was, you know, when it got to final. There was a requirement that the curb cut be widened by the existing owner before they sold off the vacant parcel. Okay. Interesting. There's that or just, it's a condition of development of a new parcel that. Once, once that, that step happens, the curb cut has to be widened. Okay. So there's options when it gets to final. And it's just that the, the easement will have to take into that into account. So the easement will have to be probably wider for the first however many feet. And then it can narrow down to 20. Yep. Great. Thank you. Um, And that's, I think the point is to make sure that people can get out of the road. If someone else is coming out. Um, and we'll work with Corey to confirm exactly how far in it has to be wider. I don't think it's that far. And so, and that's definitely something that will be reviewed once there's a apply for a new development there. Right. Yeah. Okay. Um, that's true. Um, so traffic. Um, I guess I just don't see that there's. As if we don't need to, I don't think we need additional information on adding a two unit outs there. I don't think it. Okay. So we can just kind of let that one roll. Um, Merit does. The existing and or the proposed zoning allow. Uh, Two equal units without a. With that without a hard approval. Um, so. This revised zoning regulations that got adopted on April 3rd. Would actually allow up to six dwelling units on each of these parcels. Um, you know, it still has to meet all the other requirements that has to meet the parking. It has to meet setbacks, average max, all of those things. So. I honestly, and you know, height limits with this being the zoning district, they would have to be absolutely ridiculously small dwelling units to get six on each of these parcels. And then whoever that is, we probably have to come back to you guys for a parking waiver because our regulations still require one parking space per dwelling unit on the parcel itself, unless they get there be approval. Even though theoretically. The, the revised density allowance allows six per parcel. That would be pretty hard. Her personal to mention her personal tree houses for everyone. Yeah, tree houses. So it's, it's, it's a, it's a part of it is. There's a whole bunch of policy behind it. Um, but they're trying to make it so that those parcels that do have the room to meet all the other requirements can do smaller, you know, like. Like studios and or one bedrooms, things like that and have more variation in housing throughout, but you still have to meet the parking requirements. They didn't get rid of the parking requirements. So, um, okay. That is helpful. So the next place that I thought there were some question was the applicant should design the subdivision to provide utility service to each of the parcels and underground if feasible. I mean that that will neighbors. Neighborhood is above ground, right? I mean, everybody's got wires down there, I think. So it doesn't seem like that would be a reasonable thing to ask. It would be weird if they went underground just for that property and then back up. So that's more of a long term community thing I would think. Other thoughts about that. Electricity utilities or anything. I don't know that we've been 100% consistent, you know, on this. But we've definitely said, you know, they can be above ground if they've got across the street, like we've never required that. Okay. You know, I think that we'd still be amenable to a waiver for them being underground in this case too. So yeah, I don't see an issue with that. Yeah, and I think that the underground thing oftentimes has to think we've discussed in new developments like Isabelle circle. Sure. One of that all underground. So. Very interesting. It's just a vision of the line going like that through neighborhoods. I mean, so I guess looking at this, there's a pole in the property. So it's like whether you attach the pole through underground drop or go straight to it. Like, I don't know whether one is cheaper than the other with the powerful company is feeling this particular day. So I don't see the reason for us. Yeah, like, I don't see the reason for us to require it one way or the other. Okay, but. This, this goes to the whole the subdivision chapter is still very much geared towards larger subdivision projects like Isabelle circle versus these two parcel subdivisions in already developed neighborhood. Yeah, we knew that the board has been working with this. Okay. And so, yeah, we're rising this wasn't a big push this last round of changes. I guess that, you know, so many of these questions now. The whole screening and thing now. I feel like we did this up on gals and hill road where it was like. Hard to tell. I mean, it seems. This is definitely a bigger subdivision thing, you know, and if you were talking about a bigger subdivision, sure, we want to know what's going to be privacy between houses between the road frontage, you know, all that. And between these two small lots in the middle of the meadow. So, you know, I guess, if they come back with the development proposal that will that also have the opportunity for them to look at landscaping at that juncture, or is it only at this point. If they come back, if at some point somebody wants to have 3 dwelling units on either 1 of these proposed parcels that'll trigger site plan review, which triggers the landscaping and screening requirement. And, you know, once you've got people developing there. Even if it's just 2 units naturally, sometimes people want to plant things and figure that out, but especially with a shared driveway gets much more complicated. So trying to mandate stuff now. So, it's difficult. I think what we ended up doing on the gold hill was just to say, you know, figure it out, whatever works for you guys. And I kind of feel comfortable with that approach with a 2 house subdivision in the middle of the meadow, you know, I mean. You can't get too crazy earlier for a fence that's on the other side of the existing structure. It's on. It's on the border of this, the new subdivided lot parcel. So it'll be on the, on the, I guess, the East. The East. Let me help. I can share my screen and pull it up and find it on that. Yeah, I don't it's not because it's because the fence hasn't been put up yet. It's not on the survey. Um, so hold on. I'll be on the along the, I believe that's 10 vine street is the house. So there's buying street. So which, sorry. It's, I can't remember. It's at the bottom, the bottom line here. Yeah. That's where the fence will be. That triple hash mark there. Yep. I have to ask them to move their propane tanks. They're on my property. Right. So yeah, so there'll be a fence along here. Yep. Yeah. They're over. So yeah, they're just barely over. Yeah. So it's on the record. Yeah, I know this is, um, you just, they're just in these massive zoning changes. So unlikely there's anything else coming up soon, but it's a reminder that. Yeah, it is interesting to read these all for like a large scale subdivision versus like a. Urban infill small scale project. Yeah. This could be a good change for the future. So it isn't necessary to go through all the discussion around. What's not relevant. Oh yeah. I think we've, we've got it in the last get on the list. Okay. Other members have other questions or issues that they wanted to bring up or identify. Not about the parcel division. And the rest will be people cheer. Anybody on our. Any comments? Yeah, I don't. I have one, one, one question, Meredith. Hi, Brian, go ahead. Hi. Good evening, everybody. Can you hear me? Okay. Yep. Okay. I was just, I think that the, what we're seeing are parking spaces indicated. Yeah. So do you mean adjacent to both of these? The existing dwelling and the, and the proposed duplex. Is that what those. Rectangular shapes are. Hold on. Let me pull it up on the screen. Yeah. Again. So do you mean here. And here. Yes, yes. Yeah. Those are my understanding. Those are the, the parking spaces you've got, right? Yes. Jamie. Yeah. Yeah. And that's great. I was just wondering, because one of them. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a structure and I can see from the hatching on the plan that it isn't. So. No, those are, that's the existing, you can see the existing turnaround and some of the images I put in the. Like turnaround slash parking spaces that are in the staff report. Some of the satellite images. Okay, thanks. Welcome. So I think that David, Greg and Katie Gustafson are on for the next application. I don't know who see Jack is. Could you. Yep, I'm just double checking. It looks like you're unmuted. Could you just, are you on for that? My name's Christopher Ackerman. I live. On Kemp Avenue. Do you hear me? Yep, I can hear you. Are you on about the street application? Yes. Perfect. So we'll, we'll get to you when we get there. I'm just trying to make sure that I know who's, who's who. If anybody needed to talk about the application we're discussing right now. So thank you. I would entertain a motion. Oh, I'm so used to it. Like, maybe we should have read it all the way outside. We don't have to sketch plans. So I think, I mean, unless other people have comments beginning. I think we're done. I think it looks good. Process to get to subdivision. So. Thank you. We'll see you in a couple of weeks. Well, you and I, you and I will discuss we got to go through the whole public hearing notice process again for the next application. So, yeah, we'll discuss either later this week or next week. Because you'll need to split out that the site plan versus the draft plan. So there'll be a little bit of work for Rick Bell to do. Okay. Awesome. Thanks, Amy. Yep. Thank you. Bye. Moving on to our next applicant. Hi. Hi. Can you say your name for the record? Yes, Keanu Bromley. Keanu Bromley. Okay. This is a conditional use hearing. So, you and anyone else who would like to speak tonight on the record, please raise your right hand. I'm hoping all of you at home there who are going to speak also are doing that. And do you think, even if you think you might talk to answer a question, I would raise your hand and get it out of the way to get sworn in. I do sound to swear. Salman swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth under the pains and penalties of perjury. Do. Yes. Yeah. Everybody good there online. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to the applicants. Katie, did you swear in there? Katie, did you have any plans to talk? If people need me to, I will. I'm, I'm trying just to listen and be helpful as I can be. And I did raise my hand and I took the oath. Thank you, Katie. Hi. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I know that's what I'm so can I just get an affirmative that both of you were sworn in for Christopher. Akram Akram and David great. A thumbs up or not? Yes. If you. Can you hear me? Yes. Hi, David. I'm here mainly to listen. Perfect. That's great. That's great. We're just trying to make sure because we know you are interested in the application. And there I am. Hi, Christopher. Hi, Christopher. So did, did you have any intention to talk at all? Not really. Okay. Okay. I just, I mean, I may be inspired, but just trying to find out what I can. Okay. Sorry to drag that out, but I'd rather be careful. Yes. Um, okay. So, uh, I'll let you do a very quick sketch of this and then we'll turn it over to the applicant. Okay. Yeah, so procedurally, this is before the board because it involves some conditional uses. And I am not allowed to do that and make those approvals. So there's a, you know, both a restaurant use, there's a perform what I call a performance theater use. That's the closest it comes to. And then a potential event space that has the actual use name is very long. But think of it as like an event space. So those three uses are sort of layered in on the main floor of the building. And some in the third floor. There's a potential space up there. But then the, the ground floor, the bottom floor is going to continue to be an academic use. It's a permitted use up there. And so existing use is just going to change what kind of academic institution it is. You know, it'd be, you know, we can jump right into the, into the application, but I would love to hear just for a description about what you're thinking about doing up there and what you're doing. I got a little thing that's okay if I read, I'm just going to read it. So I stay on script. Hello, and thank you for having me. My name is Canada Bromley and I am here today on behalf of the Montpelier performing arts hub. The Montpelier performing arts hub is a 501C 39 profit organization with a mission to curate and provide health or high health, provide high quality performing arts education for the central Vermont community at a professional performance venue. The location is under contract to purchase 35 college street on the Vermont College of Fine Arts campus. The building and the location are a key feature and driving component of our business plan. The building size and location provide critical advantages and opportunities to meet our mission statement and create a sustainable nonprofit business model. As you said before, Meredith, the basement or the lower level will continue to be for education. It will be renovated into an educational suite for performing arts classes. A new and critical entrance will be added to the exterior of the building leading towards the rear parking lot with complete with the bike storage. Upon entering the reception area will receive students and their families. This area will have ADA and full-stall bathrooms, lockers for students, a shower and seating space. The performing arts educational programming will be for all ages and will run year round out of the four fully equipped studio classrooms. Programming will include hub contracted teaching artists as well as partner organization offerings. Yeah, and then so today what we're really seeking is the approval for the change of use in the main floor. The main floor of the performing arts hub at the Gary library will consist of administrative offices and storage, a cafe and event bar with outdoor deck and seating. A flexible black box theater and event space, new ADA and full-stalled patron bathrooms, a staff or performer kitchenette, and a technical booth located in the locked otherwise known as the mezzanine of the space looking over the performance space for our technicians. The performance space will include a full ceiling lighting grid with LED stage and architectural lighting, portable and arrangeable riser systems for audience seating and stage arrangements, portable cushioned seating, assistive listening technology combined with professional audio systems, masking curtains and acoustic management, as well as full audio video capabilities to support a wide range of uses. The main floor performance space will support a number of activities including live music, theater, dance, comedians, speakers, film festivals, private events, educational showcases, and most importantly community gatherings. The main floor cafe will be open daily to support the flow of class attendees, businesses located around the green and the people that go and attend those schools, and other local traffic. This space is designed specifically to be an added amenity in a strategic way to encourage building access and familiarity. Our cafe will also act as a box office during open hours. And it is our intention to partner with a local coffee vendors and local pastry chefs and bakers to bring in pre-made food so there's no kitchen there. The cafe will double as an event concessions bar. This kind of like bar and event concession space, it will operate and like it'll be a complement to events held in the performance space. It will be open when events happen at the time of the performances and around those hours, but not separately. So it's really designed to be a complimentary service to the event. We are seeking a change of use at today's meeting and our building permits will be submitted later so we're not submitting our building permit for review today. And then I just wanted to address a couple of the notes in the document already just to put those in there. So deliveries for our cafe space and for anything like that will be made to the back of the building where we're putting in a new entrance. So it's not, we don't currently have an entrance in the back, but that is where that door in the back that would have clearance and would have an off street site for deliveries. And again, kind of looking at the model of the cafe, we're working with local vendors or the size truck that we're expecting is a single truck or smaller, probably vans, cars will also be the delivery method for most items coming into the theater or into the space as a whole. And the outdoor deck and patio space. The patio will be the main entrance space for the building and for the events on the top floor. So the exterior entrance on the back is an encouraged entrance. As well there's a, we have a proposed elevator that will link the basement entrance by the back parking lot for like safe and convenient parking and hopefully hopefully driving more traffic towards parking in the parking lot that's back there instead of on the street which I think is what kind of currently happens. And so those words are just saying sorry. Just about the patio in the front so that is an entrance spot but the seating on the patio is not in is intended for cafe use not necessary not for the event and evening use. So, we just noticed that there was a talk about the patio kind of being open in the evening again nighttime and that was not that's on our intent for that space. The patio is really the seating for that compliments the cafe hours. And then but the deck is used as an entrance location for the office like the box office space where it becomes in the evening for our events. In terms of the refuse area we have. We're proposing a placing a smaller refuse area near our building so that there's something easy to access and I just wanted to note that we will provide a site plan update but haven't yet but we will do that shortly. And then the other piece I just wanted to kind of push in or I just wanted to like point out more I guess was just regarding noise just recognizing the neighborhood and and how concerned folks are about the noise that we're working with our local theater designer Don Hirsch is incredibly experienced and really looking at the design of the space to include noise barriers, you know, sound masking and really thinking strategically about the space so that we are containing and controlling our like the sound and the impact of our events to our space and designing it appropriately for that. So that is something that we are working with a professional on specifically for that purpose. And so yeah that's my little spiel thank you and I look forward to answering your questions. I guess when you just review what you said about the patio. Yeah, because I thought you said the cafe was going to be open during events and that the patio would only be open with the cafes open and then somehow that didn't. Yeah, some of that doesn't line up so you see there they're kind of like they're the same space that they offer two different services really so like the cafe in the cafe hours will be. I don't know exactly the hours it'll end up being but stay time you know it's daytime use. It'll probably cross over into the early afternoon just along with the classes in the basement to support the flow of people in the building, but when it. When that space transitions into an event concessions bar is really here we have an event it starts at seven the cafe you know the space opens at 630 or 615 prior to the event. And that transition that space has a little bit of a you can I imagine when I walk into that space that there's actually it changes like we move tables aside and it's more of a lobby entrance space where you get your ticket you have a box office point of sale right there at the counter. Right you see a little bit of a different array of what's offered. It's not the full cafe offerings right right and so when I see those two. There's like the cafe hours that are regular business hours. And there are events with the, you know, with the event bar concessions space, like supporting that but the outdoor seating is not like a component of that component of that. It's like not a. I don't make it like I don't know why people would be out there because it would be dark. I mean they're going to enter through there they'll be it'll be well lit enough to, you know, of course, based on review to make sure that people are safe entry building but the space is not an outdoor evening patio space it's really. That was my that was my question. Like, I wanted to see if that could be clarified myself. Sorry. I didn't follow the protocol I guess. Did you have a question. I wanted to know how late things might go on. Okay, can you. Okay, thank you. In terms of event like ending times. Yeah, yes. I mean, I do I cannot imagine a scenario in which they would ever go later than midnight as like the latest latest but that is not the zone. We would be looking for to end like I would imagine most people including myself like to go home in the evening in this area. So I'm much more imagining, you know, performances starting at seven or eight and being done, you know, after nine nine. So I think there's a variety of scenarios I don't. I don't have the ability to I think to like promise a certain end time. Like, does that make sense? Like I have a typical application will be a seven o'clock performance 730 performance eight like just kind of a very typical time that you would see other events out in the in the area. It's not designed again we're not opening a bar to be like a late night space that you come to just for bar use you know you'd be seeing something very specific and then the show would be over and you would go home. And is there going to be a bar in there? Yeah, we just kind of we just kind of keep this. We can't just have open conversation. Sorry, sorry, I don't know how to raise my hand. You know, be wave your hand and we can tell. Yeah, we will be able to see you. The board members ask a bunch of questions first, and then the chair will ask members of the public questions that haven't been answered yet. Just in the hopes that we can get most of the questions answered this way Kevin go ahead. And maybe we could restate it again. Yeah, it's the Barry opera house is a useful comparison. Yeah, I would use any of our, you know, performing arts centers across Vermont as an example of season timeline and starting so Barry opera house would be our local space. I mean, obviously it's a much larger space but in terms of the in terms of the times of performances and and things like that. Yeah. So have I write in understanding that there is one main space that is a multi use space that probably now holds the stacks. Correct. It doesn't there's currently no stacks in the center they're all around the outside, but there's this beautiful it's like about 50 feet by 25 foot room. Oh, that's the room for the event. Capacity for that. We have not had a fire marshal through for that specific application. And if we have I cannot anyone remembers if we have I'm looking around at my friend. I mean Michelle Michelle will give you that capacity I can't remember what it said it was the building inspector said it. It's significantly lower than alumni hall down the street which is also an event space on the same campus. That's the modern cube. It's a really large one at the end. The events on the side of the space there can hold a more than double than the space so in terms of size it is a smaller venue size. We are looking at and this is will definitely be below be below our fire marshal number, but our seated capacity on our riser systems will be 97. And then when we're standing our seated size we're looking at that's where we need the fire marshal like the standing piece but it'll be 150 to 200 would be in the standing like standing room only kind of setting and that would be the absolute maximum that we could have. It's interesting that that space is double. It's half the size of alumni hall I think that kind of adds a nice perspective to it of like, I mean you guys have seen the inside of that space relatively recently I mean it's very pretty it's nice. And it's not huge. No, it's not gigantic and it's, you know, I think this size venue is what's really needed in the I mean if I'm going to go my business pitch like, it's really needed we are a small community and we have a variety of wonderful performers but not all of our performers draw crowds of 600 to fill the very opera house or or some of ours pull more than 50, and they can't crowd into a local bar downtown, and they want to see so there's it's a kind of like a mid size like small but appropriately it's a nice place for our community performance space to hold all of our local we really are looking at like a lot of partnerships with our local organizations and companies and groups that already are collecting and creating work that we want to watch. Okay, I guess I mean my my thing that I was worried about most about with that was the outdoor patio use at night I mean that just sounded like that had the potential to be very loud. It's funny I hadn't even when I read it I was like oh I didn't even. It's not in our picture area of like, like evening outdoor engagement like it's really a patio to enter and have a view of the green right have a place to sit and drink your coffee. So I had to go right into have that entrance location that's like accessible and and helps bring us towards that side of the building. The deck helps expand into kind of a critical space to kind of where we need people to flow into the space that have it really function really well so super. Yeah. Any questions. I guess. I think that you're wiggling Kevin. Just checking it for a vision. Yeah, Kevin. I may not use the correct terminology because it's I'm blanking on it but can you speak a bit about any coordination with the condo association parking lot sharing or other coordination you've begun thinking about. Yeah, I mean, I can only talk in the, like, this will. I'm not a part of the association yet. So if we need anyone else to speak up that is, please let us know but I have already had lovely conversations with all of the main contenders of that parcel and that will be a part of the homeowners association and I'm really excited about all of the synergies that are between our spaces. But one thing that we do, we just like know is that luck like our use in our hours particularly for the events that kind of outside of the general hours of the main activity of those other spaces. So we have some super flexibility to, to, to be able to say, you know, even though there are enough spaces within the parcel for us, we can even access the additional spaces that are unused during the times that we, where those businesses are in in lower hours or off peak moments of this. So I think there is good will and good conversation starting and then we would absolutely be working together as a HOA collectively to talk about of, you know, the use of the spaces and I would very much imagine that if alumni hall were to host an event that would be a part of a conversation between both of us, right about the use of all those shared spark parking spaces and how we would lie nose events up to be, you know, to use those spaces appropriately. Good. I guess the parking I mean you certainly have to give sufficient parking. And I think it's good that you're trying to encourage people to park in the back I think that would be really helpful. And I don't, I don't really know that it's where to put this in here but when I know when we've thought about other uses on this property that there was a conversation about reversing that one way direction. And, and, you know, that where you only enter and down by alumni hall, and then you can only leave down here at this end and, and whether that should be changed and I don't really have an opinion about that but it seems like if you're drawing trying to draw more people to that end of it that it might be something to consider and that is all that is. So that's just that's a note, you know, assuming everything works out. You take that back to the condo association we've mentioned into a few different people along the way. And I do know that Department of Public Works. I think if I remember correctly, they were fine with that what's currently the exit only becoming an entrance only. The key thing is it has to be one way traffic. It's too narrow to have two ways of traffic there. So it either has to be an entrance or an exit. But when they were looking at, at how the traffic flow was, I think last time this was reviewed, they were okay either way. Okay. But it is something to think about when you're talking to, to other people who use the parcel. Do any of the board members have any other questions before I open this up to people of the public. Okay. Christopher. I'm just trying to get clear on you talked about the back entrance, I think, and patio. And so I'm basically it's right behind our property here. That part of the college then. So it's very close and I'm just trying to get a clear take on whether there will be people out there. Are there, is there going to be a bar. I just couldn't quite get all that. So, Christopher, do you can you see the share screen that I just put up on the. Yes. Yes. So, do you mind if I do a little bit here and then so this is the floor plans. And I'm going to go to the main level here. So this is the current entrance to the library. Right. That's where they're proposing to put in sort of a patio slash very low deck space. That would be one of the main, you know, put traffic entrances to get into the cafe or during events to come in, come in here to get their tickets. You know, maybe a drink or something and then going here into the event space. Okay, so it's in the front, the patio. The patio. Yeah, the patio is in the front. Right. And, and as Kiana just said, if for evening events, this would really be a place so that people can sort of get off the sidewalk and get up here to then get in. But then also going to be a rear entrance that comes in on the ground level where people can take an elevator up to here, because they need to have elevator in the building for life and safety reasons. So this is down here is that lower ground level slash basement space where the classrooms are. And that's where you would get in from the back to access the elevator because for life and safety reasons they have to have various fire code safety exits. So here's a ground floor walk in space right to then get over and around into the elevator. So there'll be an entrance here, because they have to to be able to have enough entrances to be able to bring it up to code. Okay, thank you. And Chris. One thing that I think I did use the word patio the architects use the word patio for that like slab. That's there. I think it's a walkway in like walking out. I get it. Yeah, like amenities out like it's, you know, it's just an entrance. So I can't imagine other than maybe in a, you know, some kids waiting for a ride. You know, from class as a pickup for their parents, I can't imagine it's going to be a large gathering. I don't know. I mean, there's no reason for there to be people hanging there unless they're canopy might be nice actually in both. Rain rain somewhere you can wait for a ride safely but it will really mainly be I mean that the exterior entrance I do hope will encourage people to park and enter for events just particularly anyone that needs wheelchair access because it will be kind of the easiest way. And so I am hoping that it becomes a more accessible location for those that need handicap accessibility to park but I do think that for most, most people are going to be entering from the front of the building for performances. But you know again something like I think I'm hoping some traffic will go and park behind as they already do but it'll be a little bit more accessible because there's an entrance back there but then there will continue to be a significant number of people that park. So I'm hoping that on the front side on the on the green side on the side it looks, you know, pretty attractive. It's good. Do we have anyone else that David wanted to ask a question. Yes. Go ahead. Hi, so I'm David Greg and I was wondering if Meredith could you would be very helpful if you could put up what I believe is page 51 of 73 of your packet. Yeah, I think that's what it's, I'm not sure that's what it's called but it is the shared parking plan. I just wanted buildings, it's page. I got it. I just want to scroll there separately. So I don't give people motion sickness. Yeah, and if we could take a look at the site plan, the, the, the aerial view that would be very helpful. Great. Thank you. So the first thing I would just want to understand is when you talk about the site plan. The site plan, the, the, the aerial view that would be very helpful. Great. Thank you. So the first thing I would just want to understand is, when you talk about accessing vehicular access to the back of what you'll be which is your, you're going to be what building seven. Yes. Okay. So when you talk about vehicular access to building seven, where do you anticipate that the vehicles will enter the parking area by which they will reach the back of your building. I think that we just addressed that I think that currently right now they would come in on that college street corner, and then go down behind there. But there was also talk in the future and the public works department was okay with it, but changing that so that they come in at this end and go out by college street. This will always be both in and out. Yeah, all the street side. Okay, so if, if, if, can we just go a little slower. A little slower. So if we could go back to where the little pan was at the intersection. And then put the hand back to, to where the first into the ingress and egress point of college street and East state. College Street and East state I can get. Yes. So, so, right. If you could just put on the first access point that the chair I believe was saying it already been addressed. I think if we give it a name or a number it'll help our conversation. So if you could put your hand, see where East state street at actually right there, perfect. So if we could just for the purposes of our conversation tonight, just call that the access point one. Okay. And then the other access point on the opposite side of that island. Right. If you go if you follow the red line up to right there exactly that would be access point to I think that would help our conversation. So our experiences that by and large, traffic will enter and exit on the college via access point one. And I'm assuming that's going to be the basis of the operation for the for the arts facility. Yes. I guess I don't feel like that has been specifically determined in this case and it's not. I don't see that has traditionally been accessed to all of the buildings there and I don't see why that would change in this instance. Well, fair enough, but I still would like to explore the use of it in concurrent with this application. It's relevant to parking traffic circulation, and it will lead us to the discussion of character the area. Is that okay. If we can do that. Yes, I'm going to exercise my rights so that hopefully we can resolve issues this evening it would be truly unfortunate. In attempt to expedite this matter. It ends up actually slowing it down. So, if we could, I'm just trying to understand that access point one is going to be used by delivery vehicles and to the extent that patrons come and go in the evening. My expectation is that if they're parking in back, they'll certainly enter via access point one. And in the present scheme, they could exit via the one way exit down at building seven, but that if people are parking down adjacent to building 11, then they might choose to depart from that area. If that makes sense to me. I'm just trying to understand if that's the expectation. Yes. I'm sorry. Is there a question there. I mean, I think I guess there is a question. I'll ask it again. It's, I want to know if the expected traffic pattern by the patrons of this facility will be entry via access point one departure via access via point seven or if people are parking down adjacent to building 11 or behind building 10 even there's a reasonable expectation that some of that traffic is going to both enter the parking area and depart through access point one. Is that a fair assumption. Yes, David, I think that under free will of parking habits of people that we can assume that people will make their choices. But I also think that it is true to assume that like the events happening that are currently happening in number seven and on the other places in our parcel and on the other places that the parking traffic would be very similar as is to it is right now in the sense that the people access the space would be that our community currently accesses and maneuvers through those parking. Right. So now let's lock. Let's talk about the timing of those movements relative to your evening performances. Patrons to your evening performances, which I think you said won't normally go past nine or 930 but which could go as late as midnight. You think that some of those people are going to be parking adjacent to building 11 in that area where the hand is right now. Similar to those events that happened at alumni hall that I attend throughout the year. Yes. Okay. So there's going to be some increase relative to your performances. You'd like to think that they're going to end at nine or 930 but you would like the flexibility to have cut off date as a permit condition. I think I'm hearing you say you want to go as late as midnight. Or am I wrong? Would you agree to a permit condition of let's say your performances ended 11. David, I could just remind you that you need to address the board and that you're not actually the way it works is you don't directly address the applicant. Well, consider me to be addressing the board, but the information I need is from the applicant. So I would encourage this free flowing conversation and sharing of information which is just explained to me. What are the impacts that we can expect to experience. That's all I'm trying to find out. Okay. So if you can address those questions to us, we'll make sure that the applicant addresses them. I think I just had a question for someone in front of that. So we have a current traffic plan for the college. Not speaking. Wait, there's current operations of signage and I know someone's going to go use a building. There's a current plan. So I guess I'm not all down to have this discussion until midnight, but I maybe you could enlighten the board on sort of how you see the changes that are being proposed here, really changing the current sort of use and traffic in the college. I haven't really made that connection myself. So maybe maybe you're maybe I'm missing something. I'm trying to find out the traffic. I'm trying to find out the impacts that's that's my old point. I'd like to know when how will the parking area adjacent to alumni hall be used and under what circumstances relative to the performances and activities of building seven. That part and and and beyond that, I'm also going to want to know to what extent will the proposed use of this application make use of the parking spaces, which are the subject of a court order to which the city of Montpelier is a party, which I believe this application potentially is trying to override. And I don't believe the development review board of the city of Montpelier has the authority to amend a court order. David, I have to say that I really feel that if the city agreed with you that we would have been informed by the city's attorney not to do anything and we have not so I'm going to presume that we are okay to go forward. I think that's fine, but you'll end up in a lawsuit if you pursue that in that manner. So I'm going to continue to ask my questions so that when this goes to court, and I have to explain why the city has caused an appeal. I will be able to identify the refusal of this board to allow me to ask some very simple questions which if you would just let me ask, we could finish up expeditiously. But if you're going to prevent me from doing so, you are guaranteeing that there will have to be an appeal and I'm doing my best to avoid that. So could I please just ask some questions the applicant, get some information out on the table, and then we can be done with it. Okay. You are asked to address the questions to the board. That is the procedure that we use. I'm going to say the questions and I anticipate the applicant will say the answer. Okay. Do you want to do it that way or not. Because you're just going to guarantee an appeal. And I don't understand why you're being so obstinate. It's ridiculous. There's a presence that we use here. It's, it's not a really nilly thing that I came up with on my way here. I mean, this is something. And that we whatever I'm just telling you you're going to, you're the sole result of what you're doing is going to be an appeal and I feel really bad for the applicant. You're insisting on forcing an appeal when there's some very simple information. So I'm not going to argue it over it anymore. I want to ask questions. You're not going to let me ask questions. Applicant. I'm sorry, but there's going to be an appeal. It's really regrettable. It could be avoided. David, I would ask that you ask the questions. And that the board will talk about it and that the applicant will answer if we ask her to please feel free to ask your questions. Now, I'm asking the question. Will the parking spaces that are the subject of. Docket number 15912 16 V tech entry order on February 9, 2017. Be used as part of the proposed project, which is here before us this evening. Yes or no. You need to come up to the podium if you want to talk. Yeah, I'm super great. Okay. I want to barge into your name and address. Okay. Okay, so just say your name for the record please. I'm with jail Davis realty assisting the college and the sale of the property and advisor. And answer the person state his name please. Was that here again? Okay, you want it? Did you hear him at all? David? No, could I just hear his name again? Jeff Nick, we've met before. Hi, Jeff. How you doing? Jeff, have you been sworn in? Yeah, swear yourself in. Thank you. Go ahead, Jeff. Okay. My thought is human nature tells us that when there's an event here. The people will seek the closest parking space to that front door. And so my guess is. The parking lot Dave is concerned about will be the least used. And they're going to on street parking. There's parking across the street around college hall. People will find the closest parking spaces to this front door. That's my thought that might help for the rear. Okay. Yeah, it is all shared parking. So that there's an agreement within the condo association that it shared parking. The hours that we're talking about here for the, for the library for your use. That's going to be the kind of the off peak hours. So the parking spaces will be freed up closest to the event. And I mean, it's noted in the shared parking plan that Harris halls. Parking spaces are deeded spaces. So I don't know how that's reflected in the condo association documents, but I'm sure that's in the condo association documents somewhere. As to which those, which, which spaces are deeded. Okay. They're going to be. Harris hall does have the use of the 20 spaces closest to their front. Right. So those, those are part of the deed. That's part incorporated. My understanding of the condo association plan. So how they have the rest of those spaces are organized. Isn't necessarily the boards as long as there's enough space. They already approved parking plan up there. Yeah. The parking plan is approved. There's similar usage in alumni hall. There's, you know, I mean that, that's, I don't see where we, we have a lot of room to. Require more than what they're putting forward. I mean, if, if at some point. The condo association comes to us with reorganizing parking, adding more parking. Changing the way it flows, then. You know, that might come before the board again as a major site plan, but. Great. So I'd still like my question answered. Does the proposed use. Make use of the 28. Spaces. Which Jeff just discussed. It's a simple yes or no answer. Does it potentially make use of those spaces? Yes or no. David. One of the board members just trying to talk to you. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even got full introduction. Right. You're representing and whatnot. Keep submitting testimony. Yeah. I don't know what I filed. It's all been filed. I would like, and now I'm convinced you haven't read what I filed, which is a little disappointing because if you had read it, you wouldn't have asked that question. So. Again, I'm still trying to understand. Will the parking for activities. At this project make use of. The 28 spaces, which Jeff just spoke about. So I don't feel like anybody on this board is going to answer your question about the 2017. Court determination. I'm asking the applicant, the Vermont College of Fine Arts. If you don't answer my questions, you're going to get an appeal. This is really stupid. I don't know why you're behaving this way. Could someone please just answer my question. If you don't want to answer it, you'll get an appeal and you'll be the reason for it. If you don't answer my question, you'll get an appeal and you'll be the reason for it. Would you like to move on or not? Just stop. David. David David. I am speaking with civility. You're treating me a neighbor who's put up with a lot from the college who has done a lot for this college who's had people smashing to their buildings. We've had stormwater dumped on us. We've had snow dumped on us. We've had a legal activity. historic preservation? And all I'm trying to find out is, are we going to experience people going to and from their cars at midnight, making noise so that the young boy who lives in 57 College Street can get a decent night's sleep to get up to go to school? That's all I'm trying to find out. And you don't want to answer those questions? Fine, we'll see you in court. If I can again, just this all shared parking, but those will be the last parking spaces that will be used. I doubt very much it'll be midnight events, you know, and this board has the ability to condition and put our limits on the events that you can do. So, you know, it is all parking, but human nature says that very few people will be parking in that northern lot. Okay, so what you're saying is, yes, they might be parking there, which is fine. If that's your answer, that's your answer. Those are the facts. And in terms of a limit on hours of operation, that is a reasonable condition. And I think the time the cutoff time should be all events are over by 11pm. And I want to know if the applicant would agree to that. All right. Thank you very much. That's an interesting question. I'd like an answer to it. I'm entitled to ask the applicant questions. You are not allowed to prevent me from doing that. You're violating the Administrative Procedure Act and you are guaranteeing an appeal. So I urge you to stop it and allow the applicant to answer very simple questions. We are getting there. We have a process. We are getting there. Your question will not go unanswered one way or the other. But we have a process. Okay. I just put your question in front of the board to get the board's feedback on that and then I will check with the applicant. We'll get an answer to that question. Okay. Great. I have more questions. Thank you. I have more questions. Board members, how do we feel about 11 o'clock? We feel like I would like to ask how 11 o'clock, how that time was determined. Hold on. So Kevin was talking. Kevin, make sure you put your microphone. One second, Joe. I'm dismayed at the lack of civility that's being exhibited by the by the neighbor in this instance. And yeah, I'm dismayed by you. So it's mutual. Continue. You're just guaranteeing an appeal. So get off your high horse and let's get on with it. Um, Madam Chair, I suggest that we continue. Okay, Joe, you had something to say? Yeah, I was wondering if there was any reason for picking 11 p.m. What the reasoning is behind that time? I think it's a fair compromise between allowing events to happen and acknowledging that past 11 p.m. The neighborhood needs a certain amount of quiet. So from 11 p.m. on on occasion, alumni hall like four or five times a year sometimes has gone as late as one o'clock in the morning. It's a bit much when it goes to one o'clock in the morning, but we know it's gonna happen when they have some really big events there. But as a general matter, I think 11 p.m. is a reasonable compromise between the character, the area, as well as the need for the venue to be successful. And if there was going to be a need for more than 11 p.m., I'd like to hear about it. And if there's going to be a need for more than 11 p.m., I'd like to hear about what the applicant proposes to do to regulate and modulate the impacts as people are departing from the event. David, I need you to either respond when I start talking or I need you to get offline because this isn't working. I thought Joe was asking me the question, but maybe he wasn't. The applicant has expressed a desire to speak. Please let her do so. Thank you, David. I also have small children and completely appreciate the concern that you have for your neighborhood being quiet. So I just want to say like person to person, I think this is a really important concern that you're bringing forward. I am okay. And I just needed to I'm just also figuring out the process. So just trying to figure out looking who I'm supposed to do. Why am I supposed to talk? So I apologize, but I would be agreeable to putting a cap at 11 p.m. for the end of performances and events for the space. I think that's a reasonable time. I think that's it won't even go that late most of the time. But I think having that as like a borderline is a fair piece for the neighborhood. And so I would be comfortable with that. And I think it's a valid concern. So I would in terms of ways to I think it would be really good to to work with my advisory council and other stakeholders in the neighborhood and to think about ways that we can encourage, you know, parking down at that area. I think there's a lot of signage we can do whether it's performing arts spaces. I do agree that whenever I go to the library, I definitely park towards College Hall side just but that's again me and maybe human nature. But I do think there are a lot of things that we can be proactive about and and doing that. And I think based on the numbers and the size of the venue that we'll be seeing a lot like the traffic flow won't be the number of people isn't going to be exorbitant that where we need to flow into every we won't fill all the spaces in the back parking lot. I mean everyone would have to come in their own car. No one would have to walk and you know and more to even reach the capacity of the the back parking lot and no one would park on the street. So I think like in terms of numbers and ending in 11 and that I think we can do a really good job managing the sound. I know our space and I'm just gonna say this for you David but like this space is not designed to be a wild and crazy space. This is the community space. I mean our partners and the people who are bringing in are folk musicians. They're chamber choirs. They're a local artist. There's a theater group. There's some of the showcases that are most of the showcases that are happening are coming out of our educational programming. So it's kids theater and you know I just think in terms of like what this building is and what we're trying to propose in our mission is less of what I think is being described as this like wild concert venue with drunk people everywhere and that's not what we're I mean there might be a single night like at alumni hall where we do have a band where people are you know enjoying themselves adults together in our community together which would be amazing. I'm an adult in this community but that is not the main purpose of the event nor will be the primary season material and the content of our offering. So I mean I think just to assure you as like someone that lives right there like this this should be a beautiful thing in that neighborhood. It should you know it should be producing really wonderful ways for the community that lives in walking distance to connect and have access to art. It sounds like a very good thing. So I just want to say thank you for your concerns and I'm sorry I haven't just butted in but I'm also just figuring it out. I think it sounds like you're okay with the 11 o'clock. I'm okay with 11 o'clock. I think anybody on the board has any problem with the 11 o'clock so we'll alter that on the application. Sure. Okay. Does that work David? Thank you. Canna I appreciate you hearing me out and understanding that I know your intentions are wonderful and I wish you all the success. I can tell you from having observed over the years that people will behave the way people behave and there will be instances where people will misbehave and that's okay as long as you're responsive to those instances and realize that we have a shared usage which requires a balancing of everyone's interests which is to enjoy their properties and also get a good night sleep. So 11 p.m. is great. That will take care of a lot of issues and I really appreciate you agreeing to that as a condition of your approval. Of course. Thank you David. Do you have other questions? I'm pretty sure that with the 11 p.m. that's pretty much going to take care of it. I mean I I really appreciate that you've agreed to that and I don't even mind if you want you know to have permission you know for four Saturday night events going till midnight. You know if you want to if you want to propose a number like that but on Saturday night it's not not during the week. Not Wednesday. Not not not Wednesday but if you you know if you wanted to go to midnight when they would have the school graduation parties they'd rock out till one o'clock in the morning. So if you want to think about if you want to think about that you're not going to get any objection if you want four Saturdays a year until midnight. The other thing that I'm unclear about is is your organization buying the building or you in a going to have a lease agreement? Great question. We will be sorry I'm not we're avoiding uh we'll be buying the building. Our goal is to purchase the building David. Okay so you're going to end up you're going to end up being the owner of that and then you've made mention of a homeowners association. I'm sorry we just have to use the process I'm going to say it one more time. I need you to address questions to the board. I need the board to be able to respond to them if they want to and then things will go to the applicant. I appreciate your flexibility. I'm glad to came up with a solution at 11. That sounds great. I appreciate your flexibility to consider other options but that's not really your job. Um are there other it's it's not your job to violate the law what you're doing but okay fair enough if there needs to be an appeal there will be an appeal I'm trying to avoid that. You're trying to make it happen which I find quite incredible but whatever I just I'm not going to fight I'm telling you consider my questions being addressed to the board board. Will you be buying this property or do you know if the applicant's buying this property or not? I think the applicant just answered it but do you want to answer it? Okay I've heard mention of of a condominium owners association. Are they part of the project? Are they a co-applicant? I see the college is listed as the property owner. David can you hold on one second. So I'm the zoning administrator. I just want to put this out here. So right now for everybody here Keanna is representing the applicant who is asking for the change of use. Right now Vermont College of Fine Arts owns the building. That is the relevant information and we have the permission of both of these those entities on this application. There is my understanding is there is a condo association that owns the land underlying everything right now. But that's not really relevant to the application right now. Really bad if because Judge Walsh has ruled that that permits issued under Title 24 Chapter 117 run with the land. So I think you're talking about issuing a permit which is going to run with the land but yet you're telling me that the owner of the land is not an applicant. I think you're setting up I think you're setting up reversible air. Do you want to go down that road? You want to go down that road? Do you want me to cite to the case? Do you want me to read it to you? No we don't. You can't just keep running over somebody when they're talking to you. It's just it's just not how it's done. It's very hard to it's very hard to communicate. It's very hard to make communications work if you when you only hear as much as you want. Yeah well you're just pontificating and it's kind of boring so let's move on. Okay I'm telling you you're committing reversible air you're forcing an appeal. This permit will run with the land. You need to have the land owner as part of this process. If you don't you're forcing an appeal. I don't need to say it again. I dare you. Do it. I dare you. Board members I'd like to just have a little discussion about this if we could. I mean where's where's the cutoff on on whether people listen or don't listen and how we take testimony. I think we're at the point where we can say we have we have solicited and received public comment and we're just going around in circles at this point and close the public hearing. Other thoughts? I mean are there any other well yeah but does everybody have the information that they need to answer all the items to the boards. That's the closing public hearing until that's confirmed. I'm feeling I'm feeling there's a lot of tension between David and the board. But I am feeling like I could answer David's questions and maybe satisfy and get them answered. So if we were willing to just allow him to address I won't answer if I can't. But could I could I answer his question about. No. That's okay. Okay. I'm okay. Civic organizations. Yeah. Right. I'm totally in agreement with that. I mean we can put up with a certain amount of disruption. Nobody's going to block that. If we get into threats from whatever person or from whatever direction we're overstepping. I think there's a need for direct back and forth between the applicant and an interested party. I think the best place for that is sort of outside of this venue. And maybe coming to revisions to the application to be presented and we would continue this evening but maybe I'm wrong. Well no but that's if the board members feel like they don't have enough information to address it. Right. If the board has questions. All right. I guess that was my response to if the applicant wishes to engage with a concerned citizen. Oh if the applicant. What's going on that could be our best path forward. May I ask a question about the appeal process. For a nonprofit that is desperately trying to raise enough money to make this community asset happen in a short period of time. What does that appeal process do to our ability to pull that off. And to our ability to pay for the lawyer to defend our side of this. When it doesn't feel like an argument between the Montpelier Performing Arts Hub. It feels a little bit more like. Trying to figure out where. An unfortunate dichotomy between the board and that person. Yeah. I just I'm just trying to figure that out because I that's where I am. Right. That the way forward is to continue this hearing. For till the next meeting. If you want to engage with the. Interactive member who is. Causing this. Difficulty. Then you can and you can amend your. Proposal. If needed. Okay. So I'd like to have. Just one more shot at this David. I think that it sounds like the compromise that was made regarding the 11 o'clock was helpful to you. And that that was really the most important thing for you to think about. I. You know I've heard your other concerns I feel like that we've all listened pretty effectively. Is there some further. Related question to this that you could be brief and that we could convey or let the applicant respond to. Yes. I want to know. Who is the owner. Of land. Which will be used. As part of this proposal. Because in. Hannaford subdivision revision. Number 68-5-14 V tech. Judge Walsh ruled specifically. That our case law is clear that zoning approvals run. With the land. So I'm pursuing a question. Which is relevant to this application. And which if it can just be answered. It would really make things a lot easier. But if you want to ignore what the superior court says. Go ahead. All right I guess. I'm going to do. Two more things here I'm going to let this gentleman speak for just one quick moment if you would. Um. Yeah because Jeff may know better than I do just because I don't necessarily have all the timing correctly on. When the condo association took ownership and who has the right to sign for the condo association because it's not something I have the information on. So the condo association was created just a few months ago. Okay. They are aware of this application in this use proposal for the building. Um the college is in fact still a member of the association. So if David's suggesting that technically they should have been a co-applicant. I think that's what I'm hearing from David. I don't know. They would have been signing as the owner maybe if Vermont College of Fine Arts doesn't have the authority to sign as the on behalf of the condo association. Because the college has signed. The so there's a legal technicality I guess we might want to explore and maybe amend the application if necessary. It would be having the condo association submit something to amend. Right. Yeah. Who's who's actually listening. And we're happy to do that if that's what's necessary. Yeah. But they are aware that this is you know this is what their request is. Um and to David's other concerns I mean Keanu and I are happy to meet with you and you know offline and then answer other questions you might have and we'll probably answer them to your satisfaction and be able to I'm sure we can negotiate a deal. I just the first we heard of this application was the notice of hearing and if the first we hear of an application is a notice of hearing then this is what you forced me to do. So we're going to be up there on Thursday and if you agree that the hearing should not be closed tonight that would be great so that we can try and address some issues come up with changes to the application so that the final approval can incorporate changes and we can all be done with it. Okay. All right. That's um that is your opinion and thank you for that and thank you for responding. I guess I'm interested in knowing whether other board members feel like they have all the information and what we um look at this application. I mean in terms of other questions that I had I did not have a lot of other questions for this applicant. I don't know if it uh Joe has his hand up. I'm just wanted to say that um I really think that we should defer to the applicant and any kind of decision that we make tonight um I would hate to vote on something thus angering certain members of the public into trying to torpedo something based on technicalities just because it's not torpedoing you're offensive you're offensive you know you're defaming me and I won't let that happen. You have no business saying that. I have legal rights on behalf of my client how dare you insult or impugn our motives you are ignorant Mr. Kiernan you are ignorant. You have to be ignorant of the law and I will not please them. That's great but that being said right whatever the applicant wants us to do in this situation you know if we want they want us to vote on it postpone it whatever it may be. Kiana do you need a minute or two? No it's fine okay yeah I was sure sick I don't think there's unless there's anything wrong with your schedule of what you need to do here uh you know um so hold on one second just so that everybody's aware right so the I'm sorry identify my agenda like things got yes um so the next meeting um is actually in three weeks because April has an extra Monday so it would be May 6th. I do not have any other applications so this would be the only thing on that meeting night would be continuation of this um so just so that um Kiana so that you and Jeff are aware so yeah hold on yeah I guess yeah question might be in timing so June let's just say May 6th and then you render a decision and then it becomes final when the written decision written decision and then there's a 30 day period so that brings us through the I mean I have to write the decision it's usually pretty quick these days so it probably I would factor in a week and I have to write it has to be reviewed signed um so hold on let me just look um so May 6th so say May 13th um so then 30 days from 13th yeah it's like mid-June when it would be of period and depending on you know conditions hopefully I'd be issuing the permit at the same time as the decision assuming that at all yeah that works okay I would prefer to wait okay have a have okay have a chance to to meet yeah if need be so we'll put you first on the agenda for the next meeting yes thank you I move that Mr Kiernan be recused I'm asking the counts the DRB to recuse Mr Kiernan he has shown an ignorance yeah I don't know whether you picked up on any of that but the applicant is going to actually wait until the next meeting which is uh May 6th and um has shown said that she's interested in speaking with you and working things out and it sounds like there's a lot of great potential for that to happen so I encourage that to happen and we will look forward to seeing everybody uh at the May 6th meeting we do need a motion I know I'm getting there sorry can I have a motion to continue this hearing so moved to the uh I move that we continue this hearing until the next regularly scheduled meeting of the DRB on May 6th second all those in paper hi hi hi hi yeah okay I think Brian stay opposed uh yeah I will I'm just trying to get my votes here um Brian did you say I you're muted Brian if you're there all those on not in paper all those opposed okay there's no opposition um I think we will continue this hearing until the 6th thank you very much for your time your project sounds very interesting thank you and your patience welcome to the public process I will be in the office tomorrow if you guys have any specific questions or anything I can assist with thank you yeah good luck okay uh so are there business what is uh no we have the minutes to approve I'm sorry um the minutes from the April 1st meeting I believe it's what's up on the block any comments or changes in the minutes going to accept second all those in paper hi hi hi all those opposed hearing no opposition the motion passes um okay uh anybody else other business other things we need to talk about I mean I think this was a little bit of an interesting thing tonight where it was very difficult um and motion to uh motion to adjourn uh we still have don't we have uh to go through the process and oh it's that's just that's a reminder to me to do my sheet because I have to do that um sorry sorry I'm gonna have to move it over yeah awesome all those in favor hi hi okay good night