 Hello everybody. Welcome back to Esoteric Atlanta. Of course, my name is Bryce. We're here for part two with the beautiful Claire Headley from the X Scientology Gang, the SPTV, which to me is one of the most fabulous things about YouTube in this modern times is all y'all as we say down here in the south, all y'all and the work that you guys are doing together and the inspiration that you're bringing so many people especially for the most part it seems as you said last time the never ends like myself like how much inspiration that your story is bringing to so many people across the world. And before we get into guys, I just want to go ahead and once again, I'm going to share screen here quickly. If you are not subscribed to Claire and Mark's channel Blown for Good Scientology Exposed, we're going to be talking about this great series today about Shelly Miscavige, which Claire, you and I before we started going for laughing about true crime, which is not what you guys think it is. But before we got into that, I got a lot of emails with questions and there's some questions I kind of want to hold off on for a little bit because I think they kind of deserve their own like the whole bridge thing and the pricing and the nonprofit and the, you know, all how that works. I feel like that stuff could probably be its own episode. But there's one question and I appreciate all the feedback that we got about going through the theology of Scientology and comparing it to where it came from, which is the Eastern philosophy we taught. I'll put the link if you guys missed the last episode in the description box below. We talked about surge and how if you guys missed that documentary, how you I guess you guys call it the calling in like karma, like pulling it in. It's called pulling it in. It's called or overt motivator sequence. It's the same basically anything that anything bad or negative that happens in your life is caused by you. It's a consequence of some which yeah, which I and I said to declare if you guys I'm not I don't my snips if you have not seen the documentary again, I'll put that in the description box too. When I watched the story of surge and what had happened to him for me as somebody who has studied been to India and spent many years studying this. My perspective is that the karma that surge was learning in this life, the refinement of a soul was learning how to accept love, unconditional love, which is a very different perspective than what it looks like Hubbard tried to create, which if you're looking at it from that perspective, then there is no mind control, right? If it's about refining your soul and receiving love and how to be, you know, that's a thing about unconditional love. It's not just giving it, but it's also learning how to receive it too. And that was very obvious to me by watching that story that that if I had to guess that that was what he was learning was how to receive love. Obviously, he can give it. I mean, you see by hearing him talk, he's a very loving person. I had a question. I talked to you about this off camera. I'm going to let you kind of again, I had somebody email me and wanted me to address the way that Scientology views children. Yes. And I think a lot of that has to do with the concept of reincarnation and how Eastern philosophy would view this. So I'm going to let you, Claire, take it. How does Scientology view children? Yes, sounds good. So first of all, and by the way, let me just add a comment because I don't want to forget it. And I think it's important on the the whole thing we were just talking about Karma. In Scientology, the overt motivator sequence, the whole pulling it in concept is so much about control. And because the policy in Scientology, the specifically and directly, I mean, there's many others, but one of the primary ones is called blowoffs, in which Hubbard says, Oh, the only reason anyone ever leaves Scientology is because they've committed crimes. They've done they committed transgressions. And that's the reason for the title for our channel, blown for good. If you're, you know, unauthorized departure. Anyway, it's just interesting that it's as much about control and leverage as making you do the work of keeping yourself in it. Because of course, if you're thinking about, Oh, I don't want to be here anymore. And then the programming kicks in of like, Oh, I must have done bad things. Because this is why I'm wanting to leave. Then you're doing your own mental work to keep yourself in the indoctrination in the group. And anyway, it's so abusive, like that's such a sign. And yeah, karma from the Eastern perspective, guys, all karma is has caused an effect. And everything about being in a natural body is here, you're here to refine your soul. And so everything that happens to you in your life, it's not meant to punish you. It's not meant to be because you're a terrible person. It's all about a reflection. It's creating a friction. And I always I always use it this way. So like I could say looking and just from what I know of Claire and Mark, you guys went through this horrific experience in Scientology. And this would have been what we would have called probably a darmic or your soul absolutely agreed to have this experience experience. But what happened was you decided your soul also had this moment of deciding to leave. And so what happened in that moment was you had what we call a Prativa, which is a flash of illumination. And in that moment of friction, because listen, y'all, if y'all have not heard the story of them believing that was a massive friction for them. I mean, we talked about a little bit last week with you sitting on your purse. If you think about a match with when you have a match, the match has everything it needs to light. But it cannot light itself unless struck against the match book. It's like the more your heart breaks, the more the light can shine through. And so what we're seeing with all you guys from SBTV is that you agreed to go through this really horrific experience to then be able to take that friction and that light to express more love, more compassion, more empathy, more guidance for mankind. And so that's the bigger picture of a lot of what the Eastern philosophy when you can view your life in at least for me and my own life, view things in that perspective of where is that friction? Where is that that action? Where is this allowing me a trajectory to not only get to know myself at a deeper level, but be of service to others too? Then all the sudden these things stop becoming so powerful? If that makes sense? Yeah. Yeah, I so the only part about what you just said that causes friction is the I don't know that I can accept that I accepted that to happen. I do agree. I do accept it. Yeah, I just don't I just don't know that I accepted it beforehand. Oh, wait, my friend, I have a friend named Tamara. She's a big chart reader from Australia, like Lionel Richie, all these people and she's hysterical, because she'll sit there and say, man, we must have been real bored to decide to come to Earth during this time. Really bored up there. Yeah, it's it's it's definitely it's a lot and that's where the complexity start to play into with the Eastern philosophy as well. Yeah. And that's the one thing too though. I just want everybody to that any type of karma or that you're learning at any type of religion, it's not supposed to control you. It's just supposed to be a way of refining your soul. And so if anybody's using that to try to control you, whether it's a religion or an abusive relationship, like that's a red flag, you know, you're you're a sovereign fractal of God, you're a human being and you don't deserve to be treated in that manner at all. So with that said, though, what is their perspective on kids? Yes, I have with children. Yeah, so so first of all, I think it's important just to cover the fact that in really basic terms, Scientology believes that you you yourself are a Satan, which is, you know, a spiritual being, and that you have you have a body. And but the Satan is has no beginning and end, you know, it just is. And so it's a my understanding is it's different. It's a different concept than reincarnation. But essentially, as a as a Satan, you, you go and pick up a body is what the Scientologists will tell you. And you're now in that body. And that's your, you know, physical, you know, physical presentation in this world that we live in called the physical universe and Scientology. And then when you get to the when the body reaches the end of its life cycle and dies, then you the Thayton go and pick up a new body. So and some of the complexities is, you know, Hubbard says, Oh, in between lives, you go and get implanted to believe that you're just you're just in, you know, the you only live you only live once concept, basically. But in all for all intents and purposes, you've lived many, many, many lifetimes on the whole track, as he refers to it. And you've, you know, you've been good, you've been bad, you've been woman, you've been male, you've been everything. So then that then leads into Hubbard's approach to children, which is that children are adults in small bodies. Like I pulled up this one quote that somebody sent me from 1968, where Hubbard says, Thayton is simply a Thayton. Body size has nothing to do with it. The trouble with quote, children, unquote, is that it is a generality. Quote, that's the way children are unquote, a suppressive is a suppressive, whether he is big or small. Um, anyway, so you get the idea that, you know, a suppressive person can Hubbard would consider a child a suppressive person, meaning they're anti social bent on the destruction of all humankind. But again, the point being that you children are treated as adults in small bodies, and and that and also specific to the C organization, their motto is we come back. So it's very often kind of approached with Scientology children, like, Oh, you've come back, you were Scientologists in a previous life. And that's why you've, you've made it back. And now you need to resume your billion years of service, you know, type of approach. So I will answer this. So apps Eastern philosophy would absolutely say, No, you do not treat children like adults, even though in Eastern philosophy, it is taught that you do reincarnate. Now, this is why in Eastern philosophy, if you especially if you're looking at the Yoga Sutras, which is a 5,000 year old text, there's three players involved in your, you can call it the Trinity and your being and that is Ishwara. So that is a Sanskrit word for God or higher consciousness, Procreti, which is nature and Purusha, Purusha is the soul. And so Ishwara and Purusha are the two sides of you that are eternal, that are never ending, that you can't kill a soul. It's it's something we even as human beings can't fathom. But Procreti, because it's nature, it will, it goes on a birth and life in a death cycle. And because of that, it's always changing, right? There's always change happening. And Patanjalene's theory was that man suffers. There's the human conditioning, because man forgets that he thinks he's his body, he thinks his identity, but he's actually a soul. And it goes a little bit deeper than that, because we have the Shiva and the Shakti, which is another name for the soul and the body, the Shakti is the body, which is the expression of the soul. So your natural body is the expression of your soul and action. But with that being said, your identity and the life that you're in now, plays no bearing on past lives. There might be an energy coming like a lesson to that there are a refinement coming from past life, but you're experiencing in the in the identity that you are now. So like when people in my line of work try to talk to me about their past lives, I don't want to hear it. I'm interested in what you're doing now, because that's where you are is right now I am Bryce. This is the experience of me right now. So with a child, if you have a with the natural body, so the soul might be millions of billions of white years old or whatever. What I heard someone was it recent ice cubes floating in the ocean, right? Like you know, you could have been who know? Yeah, yeah, matter. That doesn't matter. Because right now, your five year old is your five year old. And the organs of the body of the natural body are not millions and billion years old. My cognitive brain is 40 years old. A five year old's brain is five. And the innocence of a child, it doesn't matter what they did in a past existence. Right. The innocence of a child should be preserved at all costs. Because that is the experience of the now. And it's all got to come from a place of love and children deserve to be protected. And even within the yoga practices, the traditional practices, they do not let children practice because they they'll for girls, girls can start practicing at like 12, roughly boys 14 because they admit girls mature faster than boys. So but they say it because it's too serious. They don't want children to to to they want my teacher and India will say if your kid wants to practice with you, play yoga with them. Just play with them. Don't don't subject them to something that's more more complex and thought than where they are five, six, seven years old. And five, seven years old, they should be playing Barbies, they should be playing Legos, they should be enjoying that imagination. And also in the Eastern philosophy, they don't when you're picking up a body as you guys say. So remember, I said the body is the Shakti of the soul. So when you decide to come back to earth for whatever reason, you've already picked your parents. You've already picked the body that's in the womb. So the soul comes in through this third eye area into the body after it's created it, right? And so there's no just hopping around like like night of the living dead, like a zombie. It's a very thought out process of your soul. The experience and you pick the experience you pick like the race, the gender, whatever you feel like you need to experience for whatever refinement. But in this moment, absolutely, children should be protected at all costs. They should not be subjected to you would not give a five year old the keys to your car and say like, you know, you're a race car driver in a past life. Go drive my car to the grocery store. Yeah, you got this right. You got it. We got this covered. Yeah. And actually in Scientology, six, a six year old is the age that Hubbard says, yeah, start start giving them counseling. That's actually the ideal around there. I think is the was his ideal age to start training kids as messengers for him. And messenger is a position in the C organization. It was traditionally on the on the ship, the Apollo when the C organization was formed at sea. Messengers would run messages for Elron Hubbard. But presuming assuming his beingness like delivering the message as he would say it with the tone, he would say it like, you know, that was a lot of responsibility for a six year old should be playing with Barbies playing with Legos. Six year old little girls aren't even shaving their legs yet. Like this is, you know, it's heartbreaking. And and so if anybody's watching if you're the person that asked that question, if you were subjected to this as a child, I am so sorry you went through that you did not deserve that. Anybody watching that was put in that position of having to be an adult before they were cognitively ready to be an adult. I mean, there's a reason why children aren't doing surgeries. You know, like if you think about this in common sense, there's there's there's a cognitive understanding in the brain develops the physical brain, which is the muscle that problem solves for the body develops at certain ages. And that's why small children don't wonder where babies come from because they don't even that's not even, you know, a thought that's not even they're not ready for that. So for anybody out there watching that went through a manipulation of whether it was with Scientology or another faith with this whole idea of reincarnation or being a fainter or whatever that is, if that was manipulated for you, I am so so sorry you did not deserve as a child you deserve to be protected. And you know, and that's that's that's very the military United States military doesn't have six year olds. Yeah, no, I know. And ironically, I will say in all sincerity, that when I had when I had my kids when I escaped and I had kids, that started the process for me of walking back the trauma and abuse of my childhood. Because even to the even to the moment that I had kids of my own, I was I just hadn't even evaluated it. I hadn't even thought about it. I barely even talked to Mark about it because hey, why talk about super dark experiences? And anyway, you know, the programming of Scientology like best if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all is their approach, you know, that sounds like some southern mothers, I know, just shut up. So yeah, you know, no, Claire, you deserve Claire, you deserve the childhood, you deserved to be a little girl and a decent little girl playing outside. I can't even just put what I've heard from you guys, the responsibility that's put on your shoulders at a very young age, and especially this idea of clearing the planet when you're six, like seven, that's not, that should not be your responsibility. And so we'll have all the children that have ever were not protected. That's a trauma. And I want to acknowledge that for everybody that you you deserved protection. And and so, so yeah, I'm going to get emotional now. So I appreciate it. I am too. I'm like, hold it back. Hold it back. I have pockets come out of nowhere. Honestly, I need my waterproof mascara. But no, I when my I remember my mother saying that when we were little kid, we're really little, she would say it to us all the time to my my siblings, like, you will never understand. There's nothing you can do that would stop me from loving you that parental love is so just raw. And I remember when I held my nephew for the first time when after he was born and holding that the kid that made me an aunt and feeling that like I would absolutely take a bullet for this child. And if anybody ever touched him. And so I want to express that love to children that didn't receive that. And I want to say I would imagine with things like science,ology, your parents were also victims of mind control as well. And so you deserved love, you deserve protection. And so please, please, please do not let anybody ever take that away from you. That is not that is not the basis of spirituality. Spirituality is about liberation of soul, not control. And so so yeah. All right. And but just to add one last comment, I appreciate what you just said. And I would say that that one factor to me illuminates the danger of Scientology more than anything else, like how Scientology somehow has managed to break that most basic of bonds to where, you know, parents or children, you know, that basic foundational love that makes you who you are and is part of your your soul, they've managed to break that. It's horrific. And I, I mean, part of me thinks kind of get like a psych. I told Claire off camera that I want to do a big roundtable with a bunch of people from different cult women, especially I'm like, can I get a psychiatrist on here to talk about like how this happens? Like how this happens? And I can't I mean, I even just as an aunt, I would go to the ends of the earth for my nephew and my nieces. There is nothing those children could do that would stop me from ever wanting to pray. They always have a home with me. They even I know my sister as well, but you know, they have so many people and that's the one thing I've always been grateful for. No matter what happens in my life, I know I have family. I know I have people that will shelter me. And that is horrific from what's happening with, with, and that's not just Scientology. There are other cults that are also doing it as well. And the mental gymnastics and abuse that has to happen to get some because not like the first day you walk in and they're like, if you mess up, if you walk away, we're going to take your they don't tell you that on me. No, the introduction course, do they? No, it's not on the warning signs when you walk in the door, you know, just be prepared that you may never speak to your mother ever again. You're like, what? That's, that's not not part of the here's your sign routine. So these psychopaths, you know, they're not stupid and they have patience and they will whittle you down to the point where you are totally, totally just hoodwinked and, and it's, it's, it's, but you know, thank God you and Mark have, have course corrected for your children and your children will not, and your future grand babies and their their children, they'll never know that, you know, because you and Mark made that decision and that's huge. It's a huge course correction. And so that's very admirable. So all right, guys, before we start crying and I'm going to cry anyone. But boobs are sore. I've been snacking all day. But, but speaking of another fellow female, there has been this again, this like this cultural phenomenon about Shelly Muscavige. And I've, I've been watching your series. I mean, we were talking about true crime. It's, it's, there's this mystery and it's can we just start from the beginning? Because it's not what us normies, us people that aren't in a cult would suspect when people go, where is Shelly? I mean, does Shelly Muscavige even know that she's freaking famous at this point? I'm willing to bet money. Shelly has no idea. I mean, so let's, let's, let's walk it back from the beginning. So who is Shelly Muscavige, Claire? Who is this woman? Yes, Shelly Muscavige is she was born Michelle Diane Barnett in Texas. And she is one of, originally one of three sisters. She, she is the middle sister to Flo Barnett and Barney Barnett. And the family got into Scientology full on head on hardcore in the 60s. Yes, there we go. Oh, look at you. I was like, I'm just gonna pull she's a beautiful woman. Look at her. She is. Yeah, no, she she is and she whereas her husband is a narcissistic psychopath, I would classify Shelly as a kind empathetic person with a traumatic childhood who is a victim of circumstance. Do I say that? I mean, she's she's never done anything or witnessed abuse or, you know, contributed to David Muscavige's bizarre circumstance of complete absolute authoritarian power? No, I don't. But so, so taking a step back for a second, I attribute I'm super respect to Leah Remini for, you know, she left Scientology in 2013 and where many high profile celebrities have interacted or had knowledge of Scientology and just walked away like Laura Prepon and, you know, whatever, other people. Leah could have done that. She could have just walked away. Instead, she publicly left filed a missing person report on Shelly who was a friend of hers for many years and she completely changed through through that action and then subsequently Leah Remini Scientology in the aftermath, subsequently the fair game podcast. It is my personal opinion that Leah and Mike Rinder have almost single handedly changed the rhetoric in regards to the public perception of Scientology. And I say that even as like Mark and I had participated in several documentaries before the release of Going Clear and Scientology in the aftermath. And, you know, it was kind of like it was portrayed as like, oh, it's this dark, funky thing that we don't really know much about, but not on a broad platform and not in a way that, you know, hey, these are real people. This is their real life stories. This is what happened to them. And this is what the organization of Scientology does. So that's where the aftermath show was incredible. Even personally prior to that, if I would mention, you know, out here in the middle of Colorado, like, oh, have you heard of Scientology? And there would be people would commonly say, oh, that's that crazy thing that Tom Cruise does where he jumps up on down and jumps up and down on couches. You know, we all remember that, right? Instead, it's become, no, it's a really destructive, abusive, controlling organization that actually systematically destroys people's lives. And the exposure that going clear with Lawrence Wright's book and the and then the HBO documentary, and then Leah Remini, Scientology and the aftermath, etc. It just has made it broadly understood to, you know, real people out here in the real world that this is a destructive organization. And so prior, so and also just shot an incredibly bright light where before Scientology could get away with pretty much anything, you know, nobody asked, nobody knew, you know, that it's not like it was just it just lack of information. So that has very dramatically changed with the missing person report filed on Shelley. And so so backing up for a second, I talked about that I worked in Religious Technology Center for eight years, which is the organization run by David and Shelley Ms. Gavage. Shelley for four years ran me directly as as my boss, like I would meet with her in the morning be like, here's a list of what I'm going to get done today. You know, I just worked very closely with her. She was, of course, senior to me. And I had great respect for her. But I also considered her a mentor and somebody I looked up to and somebody that I knew had personal knowledge of having worked with Elrond Hubbard for she she actually worked with him from the age of approximately 11 or 12. Yeah. And so you it's that that makes sense because even in like the real the real world, even in the whatever that means in the normie worlds, when you work for someone for a long time, you develop a personal relationship with your that person, you become, you know, your your coworkers can in a lot of ways become like family. And so there is a personal investment for you. And Shelley Ms. Gavage is David Ms. Gavage is the one that took over from Elrond Hubbard. So she would be like the first lady of Scientology, correct? Yes, that's right. So Hubbard died in I think January 86. And David Ms. Gavage carefully manipulated himself into power. He removed all other players. And so at that point, he became number one and Shelley as his assistant and as his wife was number two. And that's how it was from, you know, 1987 until mid 2006. So 1987 until mid 2006, Shelley was at David Ms. Gavage's side day and night, witnessed everything was at every meeting he ever held, you know, she ran his office, she ran his just everything. And obviously she was also his wife. But that's where and and that also struck me like first of all, this question, where is Shelley? We know where Shelley is. She's being held captive at a secure, highly secure compound in California in running springs. But the reason to keep asking the question is because how can it be in this day and age in this country, that a woman can be held captive, not seen in public for 18 years, not, not seen or heard from by her own family. And yet nobody asks questions. And this is a tax exempt organization that is alleging to be a religion that's trying to lure in innocent people. I mean, what in the world? Seriously, like gets me to Claire, because I that's one another episode I want to do with you as a whole tax exemption thing. And we know that all religions have had have shady past. We know that there's been very, but as of late, a lot of religions are having to be held accountable for stuff they've done. Why isn't Scientology? Right. Great question. As a never end, as somebody who doesn't even claim a religion, I'm just a spiritual, just trying to be a good human. I'm saying, why isn't Scientology being now? Can Scientology? This is a question I have to know. I know it's non-profit. So 501 C3s, there's different forms of non-profit. And I know for a lot of nonprofits, they can also get grants from the government, which you guys when you get a grant from the government, that's not the Biden administration sending you a check. That's taxpayer money that's being sent. And if it's the aftermath foundation, if like the aftermath gets a $25,000 grant from the government, cool. I think most people would be very supportive of an organization like the aftermath foundation using taxpayer money to help people escape these horrific, you know, so they don't, I don't know if religions are the same, if religions can get grants or not through their non-profit, but if they can, not only are they taking money from their, their parishioners that's not being taxed, but there's a possibility that they could in all likelihood also apply to get your money as a taxpayer from what I understand. And so that's why it's even for the never ends, there should be questions like what the hell is happening with religion and why is this woman being, now why do you declare why in what marriage? I mean, we were talking about this off camera, you and I both watched a lot of true crime. We see, we see usually when someone goes missing the spouse is the first main suspect. Completely. Absolutely. Why would David miscavige because I believe you were correct? I've never met David miscavige. But from what I see, he looks like a psychotic narcissist. From the stories I've heard from you guys, which I believe all of you guys, he looks like a psychotic narcissist. So Shelley and all for all likelihood is his better half. It's his the shining point of who he is in his life. Why would he hide her away? What husband hides away a wife like that? What is he? What is he? Why is he putting her away? Right. So first of all, there's I have a few different working theories on that from my own personal experiences and observations. Number one, I think the primary reason is that Shelley had the audacity to question him, go against him, disapprove of his intensely close relationship with Tom Cruz. And and, you know, she so Shelley told me personally in September or roughly September 2004 that she was working on the project to find Tom Cruz, a wife, for example, that was while I was still there, even though that project didn't finish up until after I had escaped resulting in Katie Holmes and we all know how that went. But so Shelley, her view was that, you know, she she was she is a hardcore loyal Scientologist. So the indoctrination for her, there's no question runs incredibly deep. I it's my understanding that she considered Hubbard more like a father figure. You have to understand to it's not just that she worked from him for him from the age of 11. It's also that she was sent away from her parents. So she was in that environment 24 seven from the age of 11 12 ish with no contact to the outside world, no contact to her family, no contact to her mom and dad, you know, none of that. It's not like she was spending Christmases with her mom and dad even, you know, she was just gone poof. So this is her survival to like this is her her way of being a human like this is literally all she knows. That's right. Yep. And so I only say that because it's just important to understand that she were worked way closer with Hubbard than David Miss Gavage ever did. And because of that, she has way more she she's just way more respected and looked up to and, you know, by all the top executives in Scientology, if you ask anyone who worked at that property was a top executive, what their emotion was in relation to David Miss Gavage, I guarantee it's fear, you know, fear fear was the primary driving emotion that David Miss Gavage ran that the headquarters with Shelly. Yes, she was she mirrored that fear by virtue of being so close to David Miss Gavage, but also she tried to make things better. She tried to improve things. She if if David Miss Gavage would beat somebody up, for example, she would make sure that that person was okay and see that they got some medical attention afterwards while David Miss Gavage was not looking, you know, that kind of thing. So she she had humanity and at least some compassion and some control. Yeah, some influence over the executive. She just didn't exert that. And I I'm personally of the opinion that she probably started to and that and David Miss Gavage shut that down. So in terms of timeline, I escaped in January 2005. And so maybe it was mid 2000. It's it's either mid 2005, mid 2006, when she vanished completely. And then it got even worse next level after the Vanity Fair article in 2014, approximately, like there was some little snippets of sightings or communication with her family or whatever. But after that, nothing. So, you know, and again, you have to I consider having lived in that world and knowing full well that I could have been locked up equally, like to that level. And and if I were in that position, there's no way in 18 years, I wouldn't have thought for just a moment like what, maybe I should get the heck try and get the heck out of here. I mean, right. Yeah. Yeah, when you're in prison, even even with many years of indoctrination, still the cracks start would start to show. Oh, absolutely. There's only so much the human psyche can take when they're put in that much isolation. And I mean, so Claire, let's just say like, let's say like many, many years go by and she's still not seen from is there a possibility that she could pass away and no one would know? Very definitely, unfortunately. And she has family still alive, like simply. Yeah. Yeah. So she has she has an older sister Clarice, who is still a Searick member, a staff member working at the Golden Era Productions or the, you know, the headquarters in Gilman Hot Springs. And so Gilman Hot Springs. So there's one sister there. And Running Springs is about an hour, hour and a half from that property. It's much smaller. And it's much more secure and there's way less staff working there. I think to my knowledge is only about 15 or 20 people they're working now. Best case scenario. And of that, at least three of them are full time handlers for Shelley Miscavige. I was going to ask you that is there ever a time when she's alone? No. That's not what he's nervous to. Yeah, if you're exactly being here and and another piece that I've just learned about recently, that so my my interactions with Shelley were always kind of included her dogs. She had at one point up to I think five beagles that were super close to her. They were they were essentially like her kids like Lucy, there was jelly, there was anyway whatever. I can't remember the names of all the other ones, but they were, they meant everything to her. And I recently heard from somebody that I that I trust that when she was sent to the Running Springs property, she was not allowed to take her dogs with her, which is just really, really, really shitty. I had, I had kind of assumed that Oh, well, Shelley would only go along with something like that if she was allowed to take those dogs with her. And anyway, it seems like a really, it might seem like a minor point, but it's yeah, it's really, I'm a dog owner. We rescue dogs in India and Catherine Edwards, who you also film as she has a little animal sanctuary in her house as well. When you have a relationship with a pet, and I can even call it pets, you know, the speaking of, we would talk a lot about Hawaii because of Maui, there's a word that the finds use for dog owners and it's called Kahoo. You're your dog's Kahoo, meaning that you are the protector of their soul, you know, and so that I think dog owners take that very seriously that that and so that that makes you want to cry like that she would have that taken from. I mean, you son of a bitch, David, Ms. Gavitch, you son, I know, like, I know, you're going to walk your wife away with a hand. I mean, I heard you refer to it once as a buddy. I'm like, that's a real nice way to call someone a handler, because they're basically being handled. You are because she's a grown ass woman who has a right to privacy and a right to have a voice and and to love people and to see people. And now she's being monitored just simply probably just for just speaking up or being who having that upper hand or her husband because she did have she didn't know Hubbard, you know, not saying Hubbard wasn't saying either. But no, definitely not. No, but but in terms of controlling, if you look at how David Ms. Gavitch so carefully and manipulatively removed every other key player, every other person who had ever been close to Hubbard, he moved them off the board. And so it in retrospect, I look at it and go of course, it was inevitable that Shelley would be in the firing line. It just never would have occurred to me in a million years when I was there that it would get to that point. You know, if I think back on like what impact would have had on me as a top executive at that property? If I had been there when Shelley had vanished off the lines, like it wasn't just that she stopped being seen, you have to understand, like she was copied on every single piece of communication from David Ms. Gavitch. She was at every meeting. She was just like, like she existed to begin with just yes, she's not CC'd on anything. It's just like poof. And if I put myself in my shoes that I wore at that property and consider for just a moment, the massive impact it would have had on me to have to have that happen while I was there. It's just shocking. I just go it most likely is as much about showing everybody there that nobody is exempt from his wrath as it is about his wrath for Shelley. What a tiny small little son of a bitch you are, David Ms. Gavitch. And how ironic is it, though, Claire, that the whole world, it seems like now cares about Shelley. Right. And I hope that one day, I mean, I don't know. No one knows. I don't know why. I mean, I understand that law enforcement does have boundaries. Like I understand that I get that there are certain laws that they have to abide by. But at some point, I just and maybe that's why I'm not the police force. I don't know. It's some and there's some weird relationship between Scientology and the police. Is that am I correct in saying that? Yeah, like interesting, not not all of them. I will say that I've done a lot of behind the scenes work and that I know there are some very good people in law enforcement. Like I will never I will always bring up any time I talk about law enforcement. Let's not forget that when Mark was escaping and he was run off the road and somebody called 911, the Riverside County Sheriff's Office responded and they are honestly the only reason I'm here today. So, you know, I mean, I've told them that to their face, not without crying. But you know, you just go, I know there are good people. And I know that they're that law enforcement is doing what they can. And I know they're working to get better and more effective in understanding this bizarre situation that we have that we're faced with where we're also what plays into it is Scientology now has amassed billions of dollars. So if with that resource at their fingertips, of course, they're going to use all that money to protect themselves to the ends of the earth. And it seems like by protecting themselves is David Mascavic who's protecting himself because you're right. There is no as somebody who is a never end. I would be very shocked if any just public person walked into an org and started taking classes at this point, because every person knows. And you're right, you guys, it's not just, yeah, you know, I know Lea Remini has the big presence because she is the actor and all that kind of stuff. But you guys are a part of that too, Claire, like you guys are a part of that every, you know, if it was just the the aftermath show or just this one documentary here, then it might have fizzled out. But you guys getting getting up every day and being on YouTube and putting it out, there are part of that machine that helps people like myself, you know, someone like me who's always questioned why we're here. And God gets into like studying. If I had it had not been for people like you, there is a possibility I could have walked into a Scientology org and been like, oh, you have the answers to life, you know, but because we have this beautiful YouTube and this SBTV, you would have to be living under a rock. Do not know that this, you know, I've been to Clearwater a couple times. It's a ghost town, y'all. So, you know, that's that's the only thing I feel like David Muscavige has is the money to protect himself for the most part because yeah, and that is the the beauty of the the YouTube platform. And I full credit to Aaron Smith Love and growing up in Scientology, you know, I Mark and I were just kind of like, oh, you know, we have our day jobs, you know, and he kind of encouraged us to be like, no, seriously, it's a great platform. You know, because yeah, you have to factor into unfiltered voices has a very different impact on a person than a glossy show where it's, you know, presented and you know, everybody, anyone that you talked to that was on the aftermath show will tell you that that what was what ended up on the show is just a tiny little sliver of their story. And that's just the nature of that platform. So that is the beauty. And I love that there are more and more people joining SPTV network nation, whatever you want to call it every day. And, you know, it is strengthened numbers. And it is also, you know, the strength of the light being shone on Scientology is something that they cannot hide away from any longer. No, and that's the whole thing I was saying the more your heart breaks the more the light can shine through. And you guys have really you've gone through a more heartbreak. And I've gone back and rewatched. I watched the the the documentary, the program after math when it came out, I watched it. And then I went back and rewatched it when you guys, and especially when I got contact with you and Mark, I went back and rewatched it. And I saw I saw it in y'all's episodes again, but you're right. And of course, companies like A&E, like these big networks, they have a lot of legal teams, they have a lot of red tape they have to work through. But on YouTube, I'm just, you know, I'm sitting here chatting with you. I'm in my bedroom in Atlanta, Georgia, you know, and so people see you're not an actor. You're no, no, this is this can happen to any any person. And I've said this before, I'll say it again. I feel like I'm obsessed with studying cults to like all cults. I just think it's human human beings are fascinating in the way that they'll look at Heaven's Gate, like all these things. And it seems like the common thread within all these groups, whether it's spirituality, religion, whether it's a self-help group is it's taking the best of people, the most beautiful parts of a human being, the empathy, the idealism, the wanting to make the lead the world a better place than how they found it. It's taking that and then manipulating it. And so and so I want for anybody like who is coming out of one of these groups. I know my friend Kelly Teal has talked about with the next year and stuff being embarrassed. And I was like, why? Oh, no, completely. I can relate to that 100% and also the forgiveness. It's really hard. Like even for me, I was born into it. There's still things that I don't I, you know, I'm trying, I'm working through it, but I can't, you know, it still hits me like I did, you know, I did an interview with Salise Sola at Colts to Consciousness and it just kind of comes out of nowhere. Like, like, oh, what? I promise I promise I'm working on it. I promise I'm trying. And it's not it's just it's just really hard, you know, and I but there is a part of me that knows that that's just part of the trauma. And I know that a different path would have led a different place. And I'm I'm completely except where I am now. I completely, you know, I it's not that everything I lived through happened for a reason. It's just more of, you know, I am who I am, despite what I've lived through is more more preferred my preferred approach. Well, you've got such a here guys, I'm a huge fan. I told Claire I have reached out to Salise, because I am a huge fan of her of her her podcast. And here are the two episodes, guys, I will put this in the description box below of Claire on Colts to Consciousness, because well, and I'm going to tell you, I told this to Kelly, I was like for from an outsider looking in. You guys have nothing to be embarrassed about because for me, looking at you, looking at my friend Kelly, looking at all y'all, as we say in the south, all y'all who you're beautiful human beings. And you can see it in your eyes that you just why you were trying to clear the planet, Claire, like, you were taking on the burden of all of humanity. Yeah, regardless of whether that's bonk or true in your heart and your intention, you were trying to save humanity, right? It's admirable. Yeah, we were just we were just woefully misinformed and in my case anyway, indoctrinated from a very young age. But I was talking to my one of my oldest friends recently. And we were kind of comparing notes like he grew up in the the same environment I did in England in the cadet organization. He was born into the C organization. And we were kind of like comparing notes like what what do you think, you know, how do you how do we rationalize like where we came from and where we are now? And to me, we kind of agreed it's it's kind of there's two elements. Obviously, we consider ourselves survivors. And, you know, we we lived through what we lived through and we've fought to get to where we are now. But also I think a piece an element of it is kind of the catalyst of breaking away from that controlling abusive organization and taking back your right to live, your right to believe in what you want to believe in, and your right to make your own choices about your life path. And I think that's, you know, both of those are elements, at least for me personally. Now you get to love how you want to love. And so for anybody that's coming from a high controlled group, there's no judgment. Like I promise you, most people aren't. I know, I said this in our first episode. And I think, you know, when you look at cults like Scientology or Nexium, where there's a lot of sensationalism, right? There's a lot of with the Xenus stuff or with the Nexium with the branding that there's there that catches people, people's eye because it's sensational. But once you heard the story, you've heard the story. But what keeps people coming back is the resilience of of you guys, the resilience of you guys. And Catherine and I have talked about this a lot. Catherine Edwards and I, Catherine will be re-relating that episode Sue Guys with Claire, how unbelievable we were talking about it today with you and Amy Scoby about how off air how like we listen to your stories. And so many people out in the normie world will go through something and they feel like they're victims. But they have, they still have support. And it's y'all story. Like you're leaving with literally nothing like right. And and the fact that you're able to then be a functioning member of society and not only that, not only thrive in society, but open up a YouTube channel and like give a little finger. I mean, there's one comment that that when I was catching it, it was obviously like, and before I even had a chance to like delete it, I looked at all the responses and I'm like, I was going to leave this up because everybody was like calling this person out like literally. And that's that we can laugh about that because like LOL Scientology, like you're wasting a lot of money creating these. We know these people are not guilty of what you're accusing them of like, yeah, you're lying to yourselves. If you think you're like dissuade anybody because true the truth resonates. People know they recognize the truth. And they see the truth in you guys and you all have the same stories and there's a sincerity coming from you. And I've heard all of you say and I guess we're we're coming up on an hour now guys, but I do I know I had a lot of emails that were I was telling Claire, I think off air, maybe we talked a little bit about it on where people want us to get into like the details of the bridge and the money. Holy shit, you guys like brace yourselves for that episode. Obviously, the viewer got popular because who can afford that shit? Look, I'm I'm so I want to get into that too because to me, that's an issue because I've heard you guys say many times and I agree with you. Doesn't matter what you believe. And listen, there are a lot of religions that believe in extraterrestrial life. So the whole Xenu thing, I know people like to laugh about it. It's funny. But there are a lot of fates that talk about extraterrestrial. I mean, our United States governments just mentioned that alien life is real and nobody even gives a shit. You are like, cool. OK, that's so like that stuff doesn't. I don't think people really care what you believe. What people care about is how you treat others and what you do in the world. And and so that's not the problem with with with Scientology. It's not the belief system. That's the really the price. It's the way that they behave in the way that I don't want to really want to feel like that's financial abuse. What they're doing is financial abuse. Oh, yeah. Which is another form and I will give you guys to kind of a teaser for the next episode. I will tell you the school that I go to in India that I was authorized through is one of the most in demand schools in India. It's the hard one, the hardest schools to get into. It's the harm guru, which is like the head of this particular lineage is my teacher, the tuition. Now, this is a for-profit school, an actual for for profit school. My tuition for a month for a full month of all my classes is only $500. Wow. That would probably buy you like two courses. Maybe an hour of counseling, you know. But mind you, you can't just buy an hour. You have to buy 12 and a half hours. You buy up to me. I'm like nonprofit guys like the school is a for profit like they're there to make a profit and give you your education and you go and then you teach and you make it. It's a for it's a school. Science is a nonprofit. Like I have a problem with the Christian church, but I don't know many people are having to pay to go to Sunday school. Yeah, we'll have to pull up a pull up a recent priceless and go through and we can talk about, you know, it might be a few episodes, but it would be fun for sure. This is where I start going this shit is not a religion IRS. This is a for profit business. Yeah, it's fucking ridiculous. People are paying more than they do for their university. I laugh because it makes me uncomfortable because it's funny. Like I know, I don't pay their say your fee. I mean, they can't even pay these people like a proper wage. When they're I mean, it's now I'm we'll get into it the next episode because I got a lot of questions about that now and I told you before we fell that it's a whole episode on its own. And guys, I'm going to encourage you to if you have any more questions about us, Claire did send me some of the PDFs that I'm going through currently. So I don't have to give them any more money. Thank you, Claire. One last dollar. My pleasure. So so we can go through and comb through and I did reach out to some of my colleagues to also who volunteer who said they would also look through it as well and start to find if you guys have any more theology questions where you want to hear the counter argument from like Eastern philosophy, please just email esoteric at gmail.com. Again, if you're if you if you are somebody that's coming or hidden from Scientology or kind of quietly, I can leave everything anonymous. It's no big deal. I totally understand. So so please make sure that you reach out for any any questions you have you have that you want to answer it and again make sure guys make sure you go and subscribe to Claire and Mark's channel. I'm obsessed with your Shelly Muscavige series. I get so excited when I see it drop. I'm like I'm gonna dance. You do this. Oh, nice. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. I know I've been a little bit slacking last week. We had some technical issues, but we have so much great stuff coming and I will go ahead and say somebody suggested and I'm going to do it that when I do come to wrapping up this whole series, I'm going to do a whole series of where is Guilla serve? Where is marking Burr? Where is Mark Yeager? Like all these other missing Scientology executives that have not been been seen in public because it's Shelly just epitomizes the issue here. So anyway, the pyramid. Well, that's the whole thing. The whole we haven't even talked about the whole, which we can go on to now something I didn't ask you, Claire, but I'm assuming this is going to be okay. I like to do giveaways on this channel and I'm going to esoteric Atlanta. The channel is going to I want to pay for two because I know that your proceeds go to the aftermath foundation. I'm gonna for two people in the comment section below put blown for good. And I'm going to make sure that you get a book from Claire and Mark. I will be the one to make sure that you get that and you know, check out their SP shop. I want to get a bracelet myself. Yes. Okay. So I will send you a bracelet as a thank you for having me on. So just tell me what size you want. And we can we can do a signed book giveaway and also team Mike, Mike Rinder bobblehead. Yeah. Yeah, guys. And I actually I kind of I didn't want to I know my friend are struggling with with some help issues now that he is such an incredible human being as you guys all you are. So so guys put that in the comment section below. I will announce that the next episode Claire and I do together will announce the winners because this is a very important story and it's very important cause. And once again, I'm going to put the website for the aftermath foundation in the description box below to so that you can also make an independent donation or volunteer whatever it is you feel like you can do to help your fellow humans. My favorite Ramdoss quote quote. We are all just walking each other home. That's all we're doing is we're walking each other home. So hopefully David Miscavige is going to a different home. He's not he's not coming to my home. That's for sure. We'll stop and pick Shelly up on the way but he's not coming with us. So he's fine. She can come not David. Oh man, I would hate to be David Miscavige right now. He's got a whole world of her coming for him. I Oh yes, you know, as Mark likes to say, sucks to suck David Miscavige. You can't get away with this ship forever. And he is dodging those servers, which is so at least you can do David Miscavige is suck off and be a fucking man and take those papers. You know, like a little boy, your child. So so that's coming for me and and even that I'd say children would do better. So no offense to children either. Stom on a pond surface would do better than exactly. There we go. You are not the poster child for humanity at this point. So no. So anyway, there's a special place in hell for people like him. So anyway, you guys well, thank you so much, Claire. I just you're just such a delightful person. I could just chat chat to you forever. I just think you're just so awesome. I have so much respect for you and just everything that you and Mark are doing and all of you guys, you are really making a huge impact on humanity and and it's it's an honor having you on this channel and I thank you so much and I can't wait to get you back. Thank you so very much. I appreciate your time, too. All right, guys, everything will be in the description box. We'll talk to you soon. Bye, everybody. Bye.