 I think you have to be hopeful and that if you apply positive thinking to your life and the idea of living more sustainably, you'll find that there are now lots of ways of doing that. Maybe more in developed countries as far as technology is concerned, but in developing countries often they already are doing that in the forest communities. Hindu is a good example of how she's living her life. So I think my attitude is always be positive, always believe that you can change things yourself. Felix Dodds is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Felix has been a leading thinker in the area of global governance for 30 years. Felix is now an adjunct professor at the University of North Carolina where he is the principal investigator for the Belmont form funded project governance of disaster risk reduction and resilience for sustainable development. In the UNC he co-directed the 2014 and 2018 nexus conference on water, food, energy and climate. He is secretary to the government friends of governance for sustainable development group in New York. He is also an international ambassador for the city of Bond. He was the UK government candidate to be executive director of the United Nations environment program in 2019. In 2019 after three year campaign he succeeded in securing an annual UN General Assembly resolution on sustainable investment. In 2020 he was the liberal democratic candidate for the parliamentary constitution constituency of mid derbyshire. And I'm sure your accent is much better than mine on mid derbyshire. The development of the sustainable development goals he chaired the first UN conference on the come out with a set of indicative SDGs in September 2011. The conference sustainable societies responsible citizens occurred two months after Columbia first proposed the idea of the SDGs at a government retreat in solo, solo Indonesia in July of 2011. The UN had contracted Felix to write the background paper for that meeting on the options for reform of the UN and area of sustainable development during the SDG negotiations in 2013 to 2015. He was the advisor to the Ford Foundation grantees on the SDGs and the co-founder of the coalition community community tasks that seconded it in lobbying for the SDG 11 on sustainable cities and communities. He was also the advisor for a number of other nonprofits during the SDG negotiations. So on and on, but I will wrap it up soon. He has set up and managed with seaweed and water and climate coalition 2008 to 2012 at the UN F triple C was secured in three years water for the first time into the UN climate text. There are a number of advisory boards, most recently for the UN Secretary General for the review of the UN global compact for the president UN generally general assembly on sustainable finance, the German government's global conference on the nexus water food energy renewable energy and water. And he has authored over 20 books. The last one on stakeholder democracy represented democracy in a time of fear. He also co wrote co wrote negotiating the sustainable development goals with ambassador David Donahue and Jim Jim and Nia, the diva rush, and only one earth with the father of sustainable development, Maurice strong, his new book, tomorrow's people the impact of disruptive industries on our lives by 2030 will be out by July 2021. Thanks, my God, that was a long bio, but it was well worth it because you've been doing this your whole life. This is, this is your thing. Welcome to the show. I'm so glad to have you. Thank you. I'm pleased to be here. And I love it how Americans pronounce mid. How do you say mid mid. No, it's with Derbyshire mid Derbyshire. Okay, it's always amusing because I actually think it's a better, it's a better way of saying it sounds more quite kind of English. Well, I appreciate you bearing with me with slaughtering of your beautifully how you say it and it's so great to have you here. So I'm, I love your book and followed it since it came out and I would recommend anybody who's passionate about the sustainable goals who's passionate about how it evolved what what the story behind it is the depth of substance and and a lot of diplomacy a lot of a lot of meetings a lot of negotiations and talks and and stuff and that's really why I wanted to ask you on the show so I wanted to take a deep dive dialogue with you and and not only let my listeners, me get to know you a little bit better, but also get a little peak behind the scenes of being transpired on your journey and if you don't mind sharing and sneaking with with us that would be so beautiful. So, first and foremost this long biography that I went through and what you've done around sustainability around democracy or more so diplomacy around the world. I'm from the United Kingdom, but you're, you're living in the United States now. I've got to ask the question, has any of that helped. Whether that's pandemic and the craziness going on around the world have you, have you had a little bit more resilience and how have you been have you weathered this. Okay, can you give us an update and kind of tell us where you're at. I'm a diabetic so I've stayed inside. Since we had the initial lockdown in March earlier in this year. And it's been quite interesting most of my work is around into governmental meetings as you suggested. Some of those have moved virtual, you can't do negotiations virtually I mean that people seem to think that you can but you can't because you have to build a trust with the people that you're talking to to be able to bridge the gaps that exist or to, to make advances but not over the meetings that I, I work at either for the university or for any of my consultants is they've continued and we've we've actually just this year birthed the new global coalition for working animals so we've we've used this time very productively to move forward. You know, the UK has been in a bit of a mess as well. So you haven't addressed COVID particularly well, but nor did the UK. And so, you know, in a sense it's kind of interesting seeing we have had a populace or we have a populace leader as you have had here in the US and they don't seem to understand how to deal with such fundamental requirements of government to intervene and to give us the proper science. So you've been basically you're telling me in lockdown but you're you're doing okay are you excited at the outcomes of the election are you involved in any of that are you still kind of participating what's going on overseas or in your election in December 2019 and the reason I stood for the Liberal Democrats at that time was I had gone to a briefing in July by the UK government in New York, and I was very unimpressed with their preparations for the Glasgow climate meeting and I thought well what could I do I mean I've operated outside as a as a kind of non government organization so I decided to put myself forward for one of the political parties the Liberal Democrats on the basis that I could potentially chair the Glasgow my party was at that time on 20% in the opinion polls and so we had hopes that we would form part of a coalition government and then if you do that there was a good chance that I might be asked either to be the Secretary of State for the environment or I might be the minister in either case I would play a critical role in a Glasgow cop that didn't happen. My party tanked in the election and so I find myself back at in the United States, but in this case the election went a good way. And I haven't been involved in the US election I'm a green card holder so I haven't engaged. Okay, okay, well that's great. I'm glad. I'm glad you're doing well and glad you're here today with us and it's so nice to hear the reason I kind of asked that that leading question, in case it's not clear I speak to a lot of authors and people involved in activism politics they talk a lot about sustainability speak a lot about the future, but a lot not a lot of them really applied into their lives or they have applied it into their lives and they were able to weather this, this pandemic and all the other craziness in our world, not only climate change and biodiversity loss and black lives matters, racism, whatever it is, whether it pretty good and come, come through it, resilient are also where a lot of things a bubble to the surface or we've had some telescopes shown on a lot of problems systemic problems that we have which have really helped them to address solving those problems and they've either written about it or done something active and so that's kind of really why I wanted to ask you that questions like to make sure you're doing okay and you're still continuing this journey this fight moving forward that we've got we've still got, you know, the decade of action started off with a bang. This year was fabulous the way we were going and I said we're going to place our feet firmly on this exponential roadmap to reach the goals and to get there. And then we were hit with all sorts of things that this year and it was pretty crazy. And so, I want to start out with the first question which will lead lead us at more into the STG's and in your book and some other things but you consider yourself to be a global citizen and how would you feel about a world without nations borders divisions of humanity, or that we unify ourselves around this new alien called biodiversity loss or climate change and try to fix this as a unified world with the un and world partnership which was made. That's the last year in the beginning January they sealed the deal. Can you kind of give us your insights or feelings on that thought process. Well, I'm going to take a step back and comment on something you said and then I'll move on to that so one of the things that I've tried to do with three books and that was the only one with Maurice strong. The, the negotiating the sustainable development goals and from Rio plus 20 to the new development agenda, which I did with ambassador list Thompson and for a leguna is to try and let people understand what happened in the negotiations these crucial negotiations between Rio, Rio, Johannesburg, Rio plus 20 and the SDGs, but also to put it in the context of the real world to often we as environmentalists or sustainable development activists, operating a world which is our world although we don't look at the pressure that are coming on that world from outside and so the books as part of what I call my hitchhikers died to the galaxy. They try to show why the outcomes from the stock on conference were not further implemented than they should have been they show why the 92 conference where outcomes agenda 21, the climate agreement the biodiversity did not find themselves more accelerated implementation and the same career plus 20 and for the SDGs, the great thing with the SDGs and the climate agreement since 2015. And if you add to that the Sendai agreement on disaster relief and the financing development process is they gave us a complete narrative and before, in a sense, the elections in the UK and in Brazil and in the US. And we were able to start to see that, in a sense, moved down to the bureaucratic implementation of that. And the SDG process and we'll come to that later has been one of the most successful as far as getting a deep dive into into different stakeholder issues compared to any of the previous agreement so I think that that's that's important to understand. And I think that in the context of where we are now. It's amazing that when you've had four years of political, I guess, in action in the United States by the government that others would pick up the weight and so you've seen this coalition of the willing in the United States on climate change to deliver the climate policy of whether the United States government does it so I think it's kind of generated some interest in things. And I think that it's very difficult for most people to understand how these intergovernmental negotiations go. Yeah, but my, my belief is basically most people want to make the right decisions. They have their national interests and those national interests play a role that you have to negotiate around. They have their national interests sometimes you can get them to set aside and this is the building of trust between different governments and between other stakeholders and government for them to take off their national interests and to be able to move to a to something different for the planet. And you see those points in history where that's happening that I've mentioned. I don't see that we are mature enough for a global society, and I write about that in the stakeholder democracy. I argue that we're in this arc of history, which is moving from representative to participatory democracy. And we've just, if you haven't seen your listeners, they should watch the Chicago seven about Tom Hayden and Abbie Hoffman. They played a critical role in the 60s in trying to move forward the participatory democracy agenda through the poor heron statement and then are going down into places like Chicago and housing estates and trying to make that approach real. But with the situation we find ourselves in now where we have fake news we have all these very destructive processes going, there is no way that we will be able to create a global. This is non nation based process that I really don't think we're mature enough as a species yet to do that. So what I argue in the book is that we need to strengthen governments ability to take difficult decisions on climate change or biodiversity. And we need to do that by engaging the stakeholders as a support mechanism so that those populistic viewpoints portrayed by some on the right about not doing these things and they're not they're not science or that they don't believe them can be in a sense challenged by other big players in society whether that's the media or whether that's industry or whether that's NGOs or women's groups or youth groups. So you can tie a little bit more into the person who is you and get even more better glimpse behind who you are and you kind of hinted at it. I've seen you in the halls at several climate conferences before, and different, different areas of the but you always wear these long ties with a Marvel hero superhero or something cartoony but you just hinted to the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. And so I think there's some kind of you know superhero Marvel thing in your background, which, which I think plays into your personality or very, very good diplomat but also very personal is there any insights there of, of, of why that thinking of this bigger galaxy thinking of our world that ties into who you are and that you can maybe enlighten us a little bit. And I'm not, by any means, the only person my, my, my father used to move my parents we used to move every two years. Because he worked for Osroy in the personnel department he would set up different factories for Osroy so I've lived in Scotland I've lived in Northern Ireland I was in Northern Ireland during the Troubles I was the only Catholic. I was at an all Protestant school and I remember as a 10 year old being taken into the headmaster's office to be told never tell anyone here that you're a Catholic and the only reason I was allowed at the school was because my father was was helping to set up the factory there and these things influence you. And then as a, as a 16 year old I hit his degrees as an 18 year old I went over to Thailand, when I got married we took a year off by honeymoon and traveled down the Nile and I ended up teaching in, in cartoon at the International School. That gets you a different perspective of the world and the people and, you know, and I love interacting with people I mean it's all about those connections. And I think if you're positive. You could often draw people up and get them to do things that they perhaps they didn't believe that they could do when they arrive. Yeah I almost, I almost see that as a difference in democracy I almost see it as diplomacy it's this good interrelations how do you talk about difficult subjects with people of all different cultures and walks of life, but find the diplomatic way to do that to still come to an agreement for the good of all. And thank you for sharing that I really appreciate that. There are some things that you've done in the past that before we get too much down the road of the SDGs that are really I like and I wanted to touch and maybe so you've been on a couple times on the nexus for water food and energy. I am writing a book it comes out the end of this year is called menu be people and planet food saving solutions. It's all based around you know global food reform and this new UN food system summit that came out this year and will hopefully find in a physical meeting next year. But it ties a lot to this nexus that ties a lot to solving as Paul Hawking talks about in his book draw down a lot of the global problems human health hunger poverty malnutrition obesity, but also environmental and ecological destruct being reached by by food and so I really my my eyes and my heart lit up when I saw that you've been involved in that over the years and we've seen you in different different events, doing stuff in those areas or writing. And I also follow your blog and I'm going to in the show notes I'm going to make sure that all my listeners have your website and your blog and can follow all the interesting thing I've been receiving your, your newsletter in my inbox for years now and I really appreciate your, your way of writing and educating and helping us on this transition that we need to go. Maybe depart your thoughts your feelings your your views towards how global food reform, fixing our food problems and impacts on the environment can really address not only numerous SDGs but also solve a lot of the environmental problems and the transitions that we need to. We need to make in this world, maybe thoughts feelings or work that you've done. I would love to hear some of that. Yeah, so a couple of things that I mean that I mean the different one of the key differences between the Millennium Development Goals and the Sustainable Development Goals was the Millennium Development Goals dealt with sectors. And so the eight different goals dealt with poverty education. There was no discussion about the interlinkages. The German government made the decision to host the Nexus conference in 2011 it had been due to a meeting they held at the stock and water week two years asking what their contribution to rear us 20 should be. And the conference was very important because it started a conversation in the run up to rear us 20 about those interlinkages we found that for example that the projections by the Stockholm environment Institute was that by 2030 due to population growth, great urbanization in places like China and India, climate change that we would fall short on energy by about 40% that we need another 30 to 50% of food which goes partly to your issue, but that we'd have a shortfall of water 40%. That happened in different places in the world. And so that created a conversation with, which ultimately had two conferences in the University of North Carolina, and 14 and 18, and in 14 the governments came down to North Carolina, and they started to understand that if they were going to set some targets during the working group negotiations those targets where possible should link together the issues around the three three areas we discussed food, water and energy. We put climate in because it had such an additional impact on even those targets that were being those figures of demand that were being suggested we would have by 2030. So that's, in a sense, part of why you're finding that in the food SDG and in the water so you some of the targets and particularly the indicators linked together you won't in the energy one. So we need to look at this as a more joined up thinking and I think, yeah, so I'm not answering your question straight away I'm kind of trying to give you a back. Also, at the same time, and you will remember this there was the, the, Yoans Rockstone, the launch from the boundary boundaries from, I think that they he I think he was still at the Stockholm environment. And she went to the Stockholm Resilient Institute, very important in the, in the discussions around the corridors for real plus 20. Then we had the enormously brilliant work by Kate Raw, who basically she's from Oxfam she invented the Oxfam donut. And what she did was, I think it was quite important is she knew that the plant you boundaries with not an easy discussion but develop developing countries because the developed countries had used all their resources and basically use that as their form of development so to tell developing countries, I'm sorry, we've used it all, you can't use them was not going to be a constructive conversation and wouldn't go anywhere. And so she, she looked through all the government submissions from real plus 20 worked out which of those were the key, the key issues that were being addressed and that became the social foundation for her donut so she played back to governments, what they had said themselves, and that made the discussion about what the safe and just space for humanity, the, the bit of the donut which were meant to live in to be a lot more of a constructive conversation. And so I think if you look at those two different, I guess conversations that were happening as we went into real plus 20. They played a critical role in then the development of the SDGs, but also in a sense to expand those people who had previously been very much focusing on one area whether it was food, energy or water, and to get them to start to engage those other areas. Now you have to understand that the food summit next year is not a UN summit. It's a secretary general summit, which means that it's not a negotiation, they may negotiate something but it's not, it's not like real plus 20 is not like the SDGs it's not like the 92 conference. It's a secretary general initiative, and so it's very loose in the context of what can come out of it. And that may be the best thing because it allows more air around it for constructive ideas and what they're hoping to do is to get a lot more commitments for organizations to do particular things. My problem with the commitment approach is that we don't have yet, and we haven't had it for the SDGs and we don't have it for other processes, a proper way of evaluating those commitments to see what their impact is. And so it's become this thousand flowers bloom approach, where maybe 990 will die. So we need to develop a much more coherent way of measuring the impact and not all of them are, you know, say how many people will get water because some of them are data collections some of them are capacity but you need to give those, you need to work out what their contributions are and have a way, not only of evaluating evaluating their contribution so and helping them if they need it, but also where those the glue bits the capacity building or the data collection stuff that you need, where that can also be given a very high recognition as fundamental to actually being able to deliver as well. I really like that insight and thank you for sharing that with us giving us a little deeper into the food and dissecting that, you know, Johann Rockstone you're right to Stockholm Resilience Institute and now he's at the Potsdam Institute of climate change and Berlin, and he does many things. So also the eat form the foundation which did the eat Lancet report that came out last year as well which there's a lot of movement around that and good hill store down who's a part of the eat foundations also jumped in on this system summit and and you know there's a momentum around there it's nice to finally have a voice even though it is the Secretary General's type of initiative, some real dialogue occurring more around food which hasn't always been as strong as it probably should be as specifically in the bigger picture of global food reform and systems, food systems, we kind of tended to break it down into silos and aspects of that. And then what you mentioned about Kate as well so the donor economics and stuff and things that some actual practice and actions to get us into the safe operating space of planetary boundaries things that are going on in the Netherlands that she's doing in other places around the world. I love to see that movement and appreciate you clearing that up for us and kind of making that a little bit more understandable. One thing that is has come out just in that is as a question as we kind of transition into the SCGs. Obviously for those of the listeners who aren't aware before the sustainable development goals was was the millennium development goals which you touched upon. Now we have since 2015 the sustainable development goals 17 goals. And, and hopefully maybe we could tickle what what what may come after that I have a little bit of insights and have heard a lot of discussions and things about the future roadmap and plan and so I'd like to maybe spring some of that off of you as well. So really, my first question is, all this involvement that you've had all this background all this progress and working up before and leading into the sustainable development goals and actually, I tell people is, it's a historical precedence it's like the first ever global moonshot it's the first time the world is unified itself around a common roadmap a plan a goal, something to work towards to 2030 and 193 countries, you know, agreed and decided on that. When you look at back at it now or kind of the armchair captain armchair quarterback type of a thing and you look at the SCGs. Do you think we presented them to the world to society the way they should have been did we explain them good enough do you think the general aptitude and understanding even today is good enough on the SCGs what are your thoughts or feelings on how we launched them and what the progress has been, you know, five years into it now. So I'm going to get to that but I'm going to give you an arc of how they came about. So, the, the important thing, perhaps is to go back to President Mabeki from South Africa's speech in 2006 to the General Assembly and he was commenting as the host country president of the Johannesburg World Summit on sustainable development in 2002. And he said, sustainable development is dead. The do a round of trade negotiations had failed, and we're basically, you know, it's a disaster. And it was then that President Lula of Brazil picked up the baton and in 2007 at the General Assembly. He then addressed the General Assembly and said, Well, okay, well we better do something. What we had was developing country leadership. This is the first time I would argue the developing country countries took the lead in the sustainable development world and actually push the agenda so he said, we're going to have a rare plus 20, and we'll host it in Brazil. Thank you to Maria Volotti who was then the ambassador now the chief of staff for the Secretary General to take forward that idea and to work with it. I worked with her we hosted my former organization stakeholder forum we hosted in November 2008 to retreat for the United States in San Sebastian, they came out with a denouce their declaration, which identified which ultimately would be the four themes, or the four main areas for real plus 20 which is looking at the institutions green economy, emerging issues and a review of what we had achieved. Then in the process of moving forward, the negotiations didn't agree in 2008 summit they left it to 2009. We work with the Obama transition team and with other European countries get them on board because they were not keen. Then we had Copenhagen. And it was as we thought then a disaster I, I would argue now in retrospect there was something very important or two important things that came out of that. The member states then was stuck at Copenhagen airport for a number of hours if not days in certain cases, because of the snow. They then went back to New York and on the 24th of December 2009 after having failed in Copenhagen or at least that was the viewpoint, decided to have a new summit on sustainable development so under, you know, disastrous backdrop and you know still in the economic crisis that we were in, they took the step and that was a huge leadership. I think pushed very much by developing countries because once Brazil was on board South Africa and other key ones came on behind them. Then we're in the process of having agreed a summit. Then there was a, you know, a preparatory process process. And as you mentioned in my introduction I did the background paper for the solo member state retreat in Indonesia, where Paulo Cabrera from Columbia and got it supported by Guatemala and Peru stood up and said well we need some sustainable development goals. Huge leadership, the development world whether it was USA or whether it was different. It was Oxfam or Save the Children Fund, or any of the development NGOs were against it at the beginning. They saw it, they wanted an MDG plus, and that wasn't what we needed, because the MDGs only deal with developing countries and we needed some type of roadmap that dealt with every country. And so then there was a huge process around Rio plus 20 to popularise it. There was, there was, if you take the whole art, there were two secretary general reports, there were two high level panels that promoted it. There were over 100 national meetings, there was something like 10 million people voting on which issue they thought should be part of the agenda. There were then 13 meetings of this open working group and I know I'm kind of going into the. No, please do. I want to hear it. We want to go deep. Well, so one of the outcomes from Rio plus 20 was that there will be set up something for financing for development because they recognise they needed to finance whatever new goals were going to happen. And secondly, they said there will be a working group made up of 30 countries. And it was given to Brazil, Maria Velácea again, huge leadership role she played to then negotiate with member states after Rio plus 20 to get 30 countries. Well, at the end of December 2012, there were still 70 countries who wanted those 30 seats. In the end, she came up with this brilliant idea of buddying up. So you couldn't have a seat to yourself. You had to share it with someone. And so you have some bizarre combinations. You have the United States, I think, Israel and Canada, you have Australia, the UK and the Netherlands. I think you actually had something like multi China and someone. I mean, so some of them were very bizarre and that you should only speak for the group of countries. So it broke down the traditional blocks of the European Union and the group of 77 into smaller, very different types of conversations. And that then fed into the 13 open working group meetings and it created a complete different dynamic. And because we were working on the what I call the sustainable development arc as opposed to the development of the engagement of stakeholders was different. The development arc tended to be civil society. So everybody was thrown into one pot and you missed key groups like indigenous people so not civil society, local government trade unions aren't and so it's a reductionist there. The nine chapters of gender 21 from 92 gay spaces for women and for youth young people should have their own space. And so that was the the backdrop for there to be nine seats or more than nine seats in the end for individual stakeholders to participate so the most participatory process. If you wanted to engage. And if you had any interest you would know that this was going on because it was huge, you had a chance to have a voice. So in the sense, the SDGs became this joint document that we all owned by the end, none of us got what we wanted we all had to compromise whether it was stakeholder groups or whether it was governments, but we all ended up at the end was something that felt was really important. And that was why it wasn't renegotiated when we went to the formal negotiations which were the following year where we had eight into governmental negotiations for the 2030 agenda it was decided that that process would not reopen, so in theory it had only been 70 countries. And so the 2030 agenda, the text around it which is more the visionary stuff and the governance stuff was the stuff we negotiated it at in 2015, but it was a huge way of moving forward So let's look at where we are. So, you know, one of the problems and I, I, I, I advice this during the finance development process which was parallel to the SDGs and ended up with the Addis Ababa action agenda. I argued that there were two things that needed to happen there neither of which I succeeded in getting one was that the Addis agreement needed to also look at each of the SDGs and look at the specific funding that is needed for those. So there are certain ones like global, that are global goods like education and health, which the kind of funding that you would want would be different. And then I argued that you should look at it on the levels of development. So there should be packages for LLCs, or at least developed countries or medium developed countries, those will be different packages that you will be looking for different combinations of public or aid support or trade support or, or different elements of finance. Now that didn't happen, which was a shame, it got, it got the process further, but it would have been a much stronger outcome. If we've been able to align the financial agreements with that. One of the problems we had and we'd had this after Joe Burden, this is what I approached the government, I was going like, dudes, you need to think about your budget in 2015. If the SDGs are agreed, there needs to be money released in 15 so that we can have action in 16, at least the money arrives in 16 and we have action by 70. The governments didn't do that. And so, and the reason for that is that they hadn't we hadn't negotiated it wasn't final agreement and so the aid budgets just to look at the aid budgets in predominantly didn't back to the SDGs until 16, which meant that money didn't really arrive till 17, which meant that action didn't stay deleted. And what happened on the UN side where the UN has a thing called the fifth committee which negotiates the budget, the budget in October 2015 for the UN system to work on SDGs was zero. And it was zero because governments had not agreed when they started the negotiations that that there will should be money put aside and the Americans played a critical role in saying no we can't agree on money for something that may or may not happen. And I, if you've read my blog you saw that I led some of the opposition to that and we got the fifth committee to overturn that decision and ultimately to get money in, in UN agencies and in UN desert in 16 to be able to do this. But first the infrastructure funds in the in the sense in the aid world was how did it takes time to go in. But then the other things happen which I thought was really good you have a new mayor city SDG funders. SDG funders.org is pretty much any foundation that's working on sustainable development goals now reports on which goal, which target, which country they're doing and so you can go if you're living in Ghana there's actually a platform in Ghana. For all the foundations working on the SDGs. The same is true in Indonesia. There's a platform now for foundations for the Arab region because it was controversial to do it to the individual ones because it meant that the government's position on NGOs came into play by doing it in the region. So a huge amount of stuff has gone on as far as the foundations that never happened before I mean they never did this. And so this is a very important movement. So if you look at industry, you'll find industry very well aware of the SDGs and if you go to the global compact website you'll find a number of things that can help your company to be able to integrate the SDGs the global reporting initiative is also supporting that with this the reporting of that. And then if you look at the more broader thing. There are now principles for responsible investment which existed before but are now part of that ecosystem. There are principles responsible backing banking law launched in 2019 principles for responsible insurance. You've now got principles for green bonds principles for SDG bonds. The UN Economic Commission for Europe have created principles for public private partnerships, so that they may be judged whether they're helping to deliver SDGs or not. So the ecosystem for finances starting to move in an interesting way. And if you look at the finance for the capital market something like 45 companies control 60 to 65% of the money going through the capital markets. If you change the rewards between the different elements of the capital market, then you are able to change in a sense a huge amount. So that those discussions are all going on in a way again that never happened before. One of my criticisms is that too often the NGOs to just repackage their sexual policies around the SDGs and said oh yes look we're doing food or we're doing water they've not understood what's underneath the whole ethos of the SDGs which is the for me the inter linkage between and that they're they're truly all interlink they are a system that our targets indicators are very much done I mean as Professor Jeffrey sacks says so eloquently with back casting from 2030 to present and there's a lot more behind the scenes that each individual there's two things that I would like to touch upon. And I don't necessarily want us to go back there but I want to touch with some parallels or some things that are interesting. So you mentioned that really Brazil was a key player had some key players in there and in starting this initial movement and then there's a few other things that happened along the way. So last year 2019 actually we're supposed to have the climate conference in Rio Rio again or in Brazil, then it was switched to Santiago chili then it was canceled there and then held in Madrid. So I think that's kind of interesting to see how the leadership has switched how political things have come in there and then okay we're not going to host it here anymore. There's also a lot of controversy around the, the Amazon burning and political things around that as well. But it's interesting how how that those placements of movements and leadership kind of shifts and changes as well as, you know, initially the US was in the Paris agreement and and on board and then they weren't and now hopefully where it looks like if everything goes well with Biden that will be back in and and will really be like I said at the beginning of the year on this exponential road map to place our feet firmly in there and to achieve it that's one thing that in this whole process that a lot of people aren't seeing is that there's this exponential function if we get that critical mass and enough people on board countries and nations and moving forward to that exponential function to that exponential function really grows fast and we can make the goals and the targets it is an exponential roadmap though. And so, I just thought it was really neat the parallels of how you and how it's kind of gone back and there's good and bad and it kind of plays, you know, at the Paris agreement, you know, there was Christiana Figueres as the queen of the cop and many other influential people that were wonky moon at the moment of some of the decision making around September and also the Paris agreement that that kind of made that shift. And it's always nice to share that backstory that real depth because it just wasn't, you know, a couple weeks a couple months this is long pds. There is an infrastructure there is a system there is a thinking and pillars and foundation a sustainable foundation behind that to move us forward. So with all that having been said, could I have you take a microscopic view of maybe for the general public at the Paris agreement or the launch of the sustainable development goals 2015. Or September or the Paris agreement, you know, there was to mo that was a tumultuous time for right before the climate conference as well. How to today as an advocate for the SDGs, a lot of the time, I'm confronted people don't have a clue they've never heard of them before and they're like, Oh yeah, I like number one red it's my favorite color that's the one I'm working on no poverty, or things like that, you know, it did be, did we bottom up reach everybody the proper way is there any, any things are inside like, if you had to do it over again or if you're looking back what would you wish we've done differently or many insights and that initial launch of, of the SDGs. So a couple of things what is, and I'm going to go back on some of the things you said, the, the book I'm doing for 22 is based on Jeff case profiles and courage. And we're going to look at eight negotiations and you mentioned Christina figure out, she will be one of the profiles and courage parallel Cabrera for the SDGs and we'll try and look at them as individuals as people. So, what was their motivation why did they manage to stand out because I think understanding those people is very important they play critical roles, people play critical roles are when you get successes and the same is true. When you get failures there are particular reasons why you end up where you do, because of, because of the wrong people being there and the lack of trust. One of the things about, I would say the trust issue was without real plus 20 we would never have got the SDGs. And nearly all of the negotiation negotiators stayed from real plus 20 through the SDGs. They may have left by the 2030 agenda negotiation 15, but the core group of people who had built the trust over four years. The SDGs in certain cases, were the same people and they were able to help move that and then you had people like power, or you had people like Kamal, Ambassador Kamal who was co-chairing with Ambassador Corrosi the SDGs and that's Ambassador Corrosi doesn't get as much credit as Ambassador Kamal because he didn't stay for the final year it was handed over to Ambassador. None of you, but these people, the way that they link things, or you know we were at one point going to be thrown out some NGO had gone down onto the floor of negotiations and insulted Iran. I think it was Iran, really nastily and whatever. And so they called for all stakeholders to be kicked out. And so I happen to be in coffee bars I'm not always. And so I walked in the after it had happened. In the next session, Ambassador Kamal came up because some stakeholders came in and the police were trying to move us and he used his, in a sense, the way that people trusted him to show, no I want these people to stay. There was no discussion, but those moments played critical roles in it. Now, the other thing I would just add on the implementation. One of the very interesting reports that people are worth looking back at. So report by Nick Robbins, who ultimately co-chair the, the UNEP finance report a couple of years ago, but he was at that time at HSBC, and he HSBC did a review of the recovery packages to see how green the recovery packages from 2008 work. And so the Republic of Korea were like 78% of their recovery package was on green. So they were looking to get, you know, renewables and everything there. China was actually the second at 37%. The EU money was just about 50, I think the US, Germany, Spain were about 20. And so that played an important role in putting money behind green technology, which we're seeing the results of now and it's very crucial that whatever we do now for the recovery packages also takes the same same approach. What could we have done differently? I don't think that we could have done. I think it was the most engaged that we could have been. I can't, I think it was a shame that some of the development NGOs literally didn't come on till the last meeting of the OWG. I think, say the Children's Fund was still trying to, at the G7 in 2014, get the SDGs kicked out and have the NDGs. So there was internal pressures from the development mafia to not take that role. It would have been better if we could have persuaded them earlier to come on. But my daughter was on a train in Indonesia two years ago to the airport, and they were running SDG videos on the train for you to watch. I think you have to look at where you are. We're in the, I think we're both in the United States. It's unlikely that it will be promoted greatly in the United States because they've already experienced the right wing attack on Agenda 21 before. There would have to be a different approach in the US than there are other countries. But I do think you've got the localization of SDGs going on where you try and get local sources to take it up with their thing. You've got subnational governments taking it up. So I think there's a lot of ways that that's happening. I had advocated and though they liked the idea they didn't enact it. My argument was in the run up to the head to state review in 19 and leading into what was going to be the Glasgow meeting in 20. I put forward a paper to the Secretary General's office arguing, we should have a 17 month campaign. And each month there should be a month on each of the SDGs, which would recognize the communities around that. And that we would take climate as a cross cutting issue. So it would lead into a run up to Glasgow in a way that it brought everybody together. And they didn't decide to do that. It's a mistake, I think, because I think we could have energize those communities and use that as an opportunity for further commitments from that community, whether it was education or whether it was water community or whether it was the energy community, but we could also have used it as a way of educating on what the SDGs are they're not just about your sector they're about the interlink. So that's my beef they should have taken it up. I'm not saying I'm always right but I think I was right in that. Well I appreciate you sharing that with us and that I mean, you know, there is no right or wrong answer so to say I think that. But it's nice to get your perspective. So you will be participating Glasgow next year and be there regardless or because you didn't do that position you're not going to go or. I mean, I, it's my consultancies that I now fund my activities so I have this work on disaster relief and, and governments we will probably go to at least go to the bond meeting Glasgow is the end thing. It's not the most important and important things are the power to bond. I'm working with a think tank on travel and tourism. I've been trying to get some a little bit of work done on looking at household waste to fuel air fuel. There's evidence to show that it's a 70% reduction in CO2 emissions, you can use this present engines, there's a pilot being done with Shell and British Airways at the moment. And I think also United have done it out of somewhere, one of their hubs they've actually been collecting domestic waste. So it's a win win, you don't landfill, and you actually reduce your carbon emissions so I'd like to see more work on that if I managed to persuade the the government of Malta who run the think tank to do that we might do it. And then I've got a little bit on finance private sector finance so it'll depend on what my particular particular issues are, whether I go I'm not going I'm not going for the sake of going. Yeah, I'm actually in Humber, Germany, and I actually work out of the bond office and do a lot of work with the UNFCCC and then also with resilience frontiers and so I do want to get a little bit more tickle a little bit more into the depths of the SDGs. But I already alluded to the fact that you know what what could there should there will there be something after 2030. And right now, last year in Songdo, Korea at the nap Expo. We, the national after adaptation program Expo meeting in Songdo, Korea last year with funky moon and numerous delegates and different non party delegates, we had a what was called resilience frontiers a workshop which could be the progress and maybe moving forward and and and resilience development goals or a next plan or roadmap whether it gets that far we don't know. But that started in Songdo, Korea was a five day moonshot workshop kind of thinking back casting using system dynamic modeling having delegates and players discuss that. And that was turned over to the inter agencies right before the the cop in in Madrid, and then at Madrid at the cop 25 they actually had the resiliency lab that they launched. So it's progressing along and whether it will will make it that far, but it's on the right road and the thinking behind it is resilience frontiers these frontier emerging technologies that. So, if we reach the sustainable development goals we should have a solid infrastructure a nice base to spring board off into some resilience for our future that we really need to kind of bring some stability globally into our world with using these pioneering technologies but also including and and where maybe the STG or others left off, we really tried to include indigenous populations so we have Hindu, Ibrahim, Hindu Omar Ibrahim on the board as well as she's also an STG advocate and so on. It's really interesting. The progress on that but I, I, you know, I don't know if you've been evolved what your thoughts or feelings on that afterwards but I really also think that we should go into maybe the first big burning question that I have for you. And that is the burning question WTF and no it's not the swear word it's actually Felix what is the future, what is the future. So people, when I asked them this they don't automatically to my surprise say well it's the Paris agreement that's the sustainable development goals that's the plan and roadmap for the future. So every answer is different and so I want to know from you just personally in your life and situation what's the future for me, or for the. Well, first I'll make comments on the general stuff I mean the reason why the 2030 book that you talked about is I've been playing around with this agenda of new technologies. During the 2014 negotiation, and there's a very good division of the, the Canadian government called. What's up. I've got in there yes I have yes you're right. I can't remember what it's called it's called. Oh yeah policy horizons the Canadian policy horizons team, they do some really interesting work and we tried in 14 to persuade the Canadian government to fund them to come and take away which is what you did a number of the key negotiators and get them to imagine the weekend, what the world would look like if they did that then that's one of my you going back to what did I think we've failed to do that will be the one thing that I argue that if we done that it would have helped a lot to envisage the, the, the kind of coherence of the of what we were trying to do. I do think that the new technologies and my new book looks at 10 of the different technologies. And then, unlike all the other future books that I at least I've read, we're trying to make it accessible to the general public so you will read the home life it'll be, you know you walk into your house what your house look like what we are kitchen look like what we are bathroom look like, you know what we are shower do I mean you can already get a shower head, you find these things out when you do the research, a shower head where you can Bluetooth your favorite songs for singing in the shower. And so, you know, we'll do the same for we've done the same for travel we're looking at social life looking at entertainment just trying to make it such that people can understand these changes and, and then we're going to use a family afterwards going back through the chapters to ask the questions the policy questions. What does this mean about privacy what does this mean about whatever you know climate change or whatever and will integrate the STG's and climate through it. And I think that the 2050 agenda it'll be a 2050 it'll be a 20 year one you can see that the CBD is going down a 2050 path I think everybody will so whatever's agreed post 2030 will be a 2050 horizon. I think that then what we're looking at is some form of what we're dealing with as you were saying at the moment many of the challenges, and then what roles those new technologies play in helping to deliver that. And so I think the design of the outcome document needs to be different. I actually think it needs to be closer to the agenda 21 chapters, where you have in a sense the goal at the top, the targets, and then you go through the different mechanisms in terms of whether it's technology whether it's capacity building whether it's finance, whether it's education whether it's whatever that need to be part of that to help you deliver that. So this is the AMB's in the STG's and that's my fault. I had tried all along to get the, the G77 advocate for that kind of agenda what I wanted under each of the goals was, in a sense, what are your delivery mechanisms for doing it and so that those could be judged as well. And so what I'm trying to do with these and sees in there are, in a sense, how far we got in that conversation it wasn't as integrated I wanted it to be in a sense common as common as you could across the the different STG's as far as myself I'm, I'm trying to enjoy life. So, yeah, I stopped running stakeholder forum in 2012, and a number, a small number of projects with the university which I'm enjoying doing. And then, if there's a particular interest that I have and there's a funder that wants to fund me to do it, I'll do it so I had a Viva which is a big finance company fund to work around the GA resolution on sustainable investment we now have an annual resolution that can start to really ratchet up the pressure on the finance sector which we didn't have before. We have World Animal Protection have taken me on to try and get a universal declaration on animal welfare so we actually are doing a webinar with Member States in December on that and so we'll hopefully next year or the year after get a resolution on that. And then I use the books to try and get people to think about things so the stakeholder democracy one was done because of the destructive partly because of the destructive impact of the civil society discourse that was having its impact. And I wanted people to understand the arc of democracy and where we fitted in it and it was bigger than just individual organizations or different things. And the same with the 2031 and with the profiles encouraged I'm trying to kind of add some interest things to make the process and my books fall into different categories so you'll find ones which are to tell you about a process and hopefully by doing that help you to understand it better some of them are training. Some of them are ones of position statements in a sense. So before you in summits I'll produce a set of chapters by different people. Well, they'll be looking forward like the 2030 the the one on the disruptive industry and the profiles encourage fits into the explaining how the process goes and I love the idea of sharing what I've learned and hope that the next generation, you know, benefits from that we've just run for UNEP a number of workshops today workshops for hours each were each each workshop to enable their stakeholders to understand the person be more effective. In your book right in the beginning there's and this is kind of what what I realized with a lot of people that I speak to about the sustainable development goals and about things in general, you have a list of acronyms so thank goodness today you have used too many acronyms and abbreviations in our discussion but the UNEP is the United Nations Environmental Program and people who aren't ease with diplomatic or democracy or UN international organization speak. The book is really wonderful it's easy to digest negotiating the sustainable development goals, and there's a lot of things to learn, and it's a nice view behind the scenes it's a nice view to see how that occurs, and, and the reason and I'll go back to it again I mentioned it early. The reason it's a historical precedent the reason it's the world's first ever global moonshot is exactly what's described in the book this is so complex can you imagine how many meetings how many countries how many delegates, how many negotiators how many people came together that they were able to agree on anything is like a miracle. If you don't believe in God you must believe in a now because I'll tell you what, that is a historical precedent. It's hard enough for two countries to come together and decide where they're going to go to lunch, let alone on a roadmap for our future through intensive discussions and negotiations and if you understand that and you see that big picture. Then you can have a little more respect for it you can understand who it's for, and that it's not just a bunch of crazies that are trying to tell you some weird story it's actually. It's like a navigation it's like a map to to get us to a better future, and it's also just a better business model when you think about it. And that's also what I like when you mentioned that when you began this whole discussions you kind of touch on how the millennium well my goals were really lacking in some areas and that they didn't take us to exactly where we needed to go. The SDGs are not like that at all they are a complete system a great plan, great structure and so. And that's really what I want to let people know and I want to educate them how that they're not for cities and corporations and big governments therefore each and every one of us we can all apply them. We can all use them. I like the story you said your daughter was in Indonesia on the train and she saw you know on the SDGs playing in the Philippines with Senator Alvarez one of the oldest members of UN, you know he was one of the first cops ever. He passed away because of COVID during during this pandemic this year and sad to see him go, but with him we created the SDG soap operas for the Philippines to break down indigenous cultures to indigenous people and who don't speak English in their own language with music in a fun entertaining way to understand the SDGs and how to apply them to their lives. And with Hindu Ibrahim we're doing the same thing with they they don't people of Chad don't are our patriarchal community they don't understand colors or the SDGs. There's a way they can understand them if we just talk to them normal and tell them and explain how the world works and the complexity and that there is a plan and a roadmap, and then their eyes light up and then they say oh yeah great we've got, we've got something to hold on to there's what the future is, and it's that story or narrative that if you really look to December 2030 if we reach and meet all the goals that targets the indicators we get on that path. It creates this beautiful story this this desirable future that very few would say oh I don't want to live in that I'm happy with, you know, business as usual where we are I think the majority people say boy that's a bright future that's something positive to look forward to and it really is so I'm so thankful to have you here and I don't know if you have anything to say to that but I have three more questions before we go. So just just a couple of things. Yeah, there's a there's a thing called PCI media, which run comics United Nations, and they do it with the world's largest classroom. Great resources, and I would definitely recommend my comic I did it, it's called Santa's Green Christmas, and it's a humorous look at climate change, and how Santa finds out about it reading the the IPCC reports. Those comic connoisseurs will find a couple of Easter eggs about Jack Kirby and Stan Lee for those who aren't. It's a little bit more of a Shrek set sense of humor, but I think that those are useful resources for the kids to download and use their free. The UN system has completely reorganized around the SDGs. I cannot underline how important role I mean the Mohammed has played in doing that. If you go to the UN outer space commission this month they're having their SDG conference on how SDGs fit into outer space. I think the whole system has reorganized around the SDG so there's a huge change that's going and sometimes these bureaucracies take a little longer than and that's why the comics are there so you can read them during that that that time. And I did see that I didn't mention it in your bio but there was a lot that I missed but I will put your links and those things in the show notes so that people can go out and look and discover more about you because it really is about breaking it down for each individual and picking them up where they're at to explain you know what it does mean we have what we both like cartoons, comics, animations, things like that we like superheroes and this is a kind of Star Trek type of a future you know a different world, but really what we're lacking today, even projecting the future as media or stories that are non dystopian that don't show us fighting over water or resources or, you know these total recall or whatever these dystopian futures out there, we're lacking media with positive uplifting stories that show us this bright future of what it would mean or what it would look like if we did achieve the sustainable development goals and so right now Mark will tell you the story about the SDGs or Felix will tell you, but we don't have big movie magic and can't show you these beautiful visions of what that will really look like to reach and achieve it. I would really hope that that we eventually get to that point where we can create TV series and media that that depict that beautiful resilient desirable futures. We can reach the sustainable development goals so we can even see what that would look and feel like, even if it's movie magic, so that we can start to engineer and create that for my guests I have three sustainable takeaways that I want to steal from you. Felix I want you to give them a free gift of your knowledge and your wisdom. I think you can say why boy, that's a takeaway that I can use apply my life or something that's made me better and really. First of all, if there was one message that you could depart my listeners a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change our life. What would that be what's what's your message. You have to be hopeful and that if you apply positive thinking to your life and the idea of living more sustainably, you'll find that there are now lots of ways of doing that. Maybe more in developed countries as far as technology is concerned, but in developing countries often they already are doing that in the forest communities. And India is a good example of how she's living her life. So I think my attitude is always be positive always believe that you can, you can change things yourself. And I did a book about my time in the liberal party which was really humorous looks at my failures and successes, but ultimately, ultimately it's a story of how, you know, since young people can play such a critical role. There was a Suzuki in 92, who was the equivalent of Greta now they play critical roles in giving us the visions that, you know, challenging our preconceptions and that the idea that young people now have a much stronger platform in our discussions I think it's has been a real success. And I remember Severin very well and she's, she was just on this last. There was a big online event from the UN as well she was just kind of gave us an update I think she's like 42. You're still going strong still active. Yeah, it was, it was very nice. What should young innovators in your field be thinking about are looking ways to make real impact what are things that maybe they should be looking towards thinking about to make real impacts on our world. So I think there are different answers to that and so in the context of the innovators themselves. I think, you know, you have the most entrepreneur, youngest generation that we've ever had. They're very much about doing things themselves they have access to technology that we didn't have. And so I think they have a great opportunity to look at these new technologies that are coming up and look at their impact on on the environment and what they can do to try and try and reduce it Small example on on travel, you know, with virtual reality in the next 10 years, you don't actually have to go to that place you can experience it at home. I'm not saying that you shouldn't go to the place but I'm saying, you will be able to have so many more experiences. You could be sitting in the cell that Nelson Mandela sat in for what 36 or 37 years and an experience what it's like to be there you could be standing next to Martin Luther King, during some of the demonstrations because those things will be possible by 2030. You could be the young person who helps to address racism, which addresses inequality by making these kinds of tools that make it more likely that people will understand it. And the second thing is, you can change things. And as young people, a small example from the negotiations, we had tried. It was actually the, the World Animal Protection, who had tried to get some text in in 2014 on antibiotic resistance. It was clear from the WHO review that they had done that we're looking at 100 million deaths, potentially by 2030, because we're becoming antibiotic resistant. But unfortunately, we couldn't get WHO to come to the negotiations because Ebola was happening. And so there was no opportunity. There was then a couple of reports won by Obama won by Cameron which highlighted it before the 20, the 2030 into the governmental negotiations and 15. We weren't able to get it in there. It was the last, the end of the penultimate week. I'm in the coffee bar and one of the youth delegates, Asher, comes up to me and he goes, let's have another go. And I, of course, I told him to get lost. I mean, as you do, you know, it's probably six o'clock and it's like, you know, the last but one, the last but one week, and he just hassled me. I mean, just really, I mean, I could have, you know, whatever. So we go in, I speak to the Americans, he speaks to the Europeans by Monday the text is in. And so that that energy that young people don't give up, don't feel that that's that it's, it's not possible. It is possible. You can change the world and young people have been at the forefront of all changes. The third thing is join a political party. The huge mistake that my generation made was we only went into NGOs or wherever we went. We left political parties the rep of that intelligence. And then you end up where we have ended up in the political world with parties that do not have great leadership and do not have the right people because the young people of my generation, thought it was easier to win on one issue, as opposed to be involved in political party system, you have to get engaged in a political party system. We need those new leaders there as well. Yeah, there's, so you mentioned also Severin Suzuki and Greta, but there's another great youth who's not youth anymore, Felix Finkbeiner, Finkbeiner, he carries the same name as the first name is you. Plan for the planet stop talking start planning is trained 86,000 climate leaders planted 500 million trees something like that unbelievable what he's done so I totally agree there are wonderful things that youth can do and that to even set an example for us and the last question I have for you is, what have you experienced or learned in your journey so far to today that you wish you would have known from the start. That was a very good question. Um, I think, um, I think I, I built my, my involvement in the UN on my experiences in political parties. I think that was the correct way of doing it. I understood the system they understood politics I understood politicians. Too many people I think, come from just having done a degree in geography or environmental science and don't understand how politics works and then arrive at the UN or their national government and don't understand why people can't take up what are clearly very good ideas. So I'm not sure that it's coming. What I will tell you is a story about how I got involved in green politics, which was that I had come back from Sudan and the state of the youth wing of the Liberal Party was not very good. And so I decided to take it over. And so I invited some of my friends from the from university who've been in the Liberal Club. And my wife's sister invited her geography friends. I really regret that. And so we, so I argued this was 1980 182. I argued that we should do anti apartheid and anti racism because that's where the issues, the young levels have built a reputation on in the UK. And all these geography students voted the green issues. And so I lost the vote. And within a year we had a majority on the youth executive and actually the executive within three years I was a national chair on a green ticket. So, you know, I think that's slightly different than what I've done. I mean if I'd lost it if I'd won that vote, my trajectory would have taken a completely different, a different direction. Thank you so much Felix and if there's not anything else you'd like to share with us or questions you'd like to ask me. I'm done and I really appreciate your time I hope we can have a follow up when your book comes out next year. Again do another podcast to talk about your book and kind of get a catch up to see how we've all been and I hope our past cross again very soon. Thank you so much. Thank you. Have a great day. Thank you.