 Great welcome to the House Committee on Government Operations Military Affairs on this lovely Wednesday February 22nd for the second half of our morning here. We're going to be renewing our conversation about our draft elections bill and John Rogers is here former senator and welcome to the House scovops committee. Thanks for being here. Thank you, Mr Chair Thank you committee for giving me a little time to speak on this It's it's actually a subject that former senator white and myself spoke about several times and we're planning on Getting to at some point, but neither of us are there anymore And so I was quite pleased to see that your committee was taking it up It's been my perspective for a long time that one person one vote and one candidate one party and Personally even beyond what's what's in your bill I think we have a serious problem with primary elections because even in a good year like last year 27% of the electorate came out in the primary and by Having these hybrid candidates that are representing two different party excuse the results even further It if the Progressives want to be a party then I think if you're a progressive you should run as a Progressive and not as a Democrat and so I mean no disrespect to any candidates But I'd like to use a couple of the elections as an example And Dave Zuckerman is a friend of mine. I've worked with him for years from the time I was elected into the house back in 2003 But the fact that he continues to run as a DP I don't believe there's any such thing as a Democratic progressive You're either a Democrat or a progressive you wouldn't consider yourself to be a Democratic Republican or a Republican Progressive and I Believe the race would have gone much different if Dave would have run as a progressive It would have been a three-way race in the general But what happened because they've got the nomination other people who've run as Democrats their whole life Got beat because the progressives are voting in the Democratic election election in the Democratic primary And it's my perspective and I don't know how to solve it, but maybe this committee does I think the primaries as we run them in this state and in the nation are part of what is Causing the conflict mostly in in Washington more so than here in the state house But out of that 27% which is higher than it is very often You're getting your most partisan people You're getting the the folks on the left and the folks on the right and that's why we're seeing many of these primary elections Moderates can't make it through Moderates who would beat the candidate that beat them if it went to a general election and I would go back to the lieutenant governor's race, I believe if Kitty toll and Dave Zuckerman were running in the general election. I believe Kitty toll would have beaten I believe in the race for Congress if Becca Ballant and Molly Gray Ran against each other in the general election. I believe Molly Gray would have won. That's just my perspective I mean you could you could ask political scientists who study this more But what's happening in our elections is It's not just Democrats voting in the Democratic primary And I think your bill addresses this by making people pick a party. You're either one or the other Let's listen into a vpr broadcast and they were interviewing the leader of the Vermont progressive party And he said that some 20 of their folks Progressives were running as Democrats for the legislature So is there a progressive party or is there not so I'm very thankful that you're talking about this issue And I I really hope you're able to advance it Another thing that I believe in strongly is that independence should be able to file After the primary in a case like this year's election a primary election You know maybe And of course kitty told didn't do it I don't think you're able to do it now, but it would have given her or another person the opportunity to run for the lieutenant governor's position because maybe they supported kitty and They weren't happy with the choices of Joe Benning and Dave Zuckerman And I think it's it's super important for people to have choice And if nobody makes it through the primary who they can support Then there is still an opportunity to be independent And so I would hope that independence aren't held to having to file previous to the primary Because I think that's one of the reasons to be an independent is that you can step into the race at any point if the Candidates are not satisfactory to you and in a group of Vermonters Yeah, I guess I guess that really covers my main concerns are the the independence being able to get in the race at any point and Making candidates pick the party that they're gonna run with and run in that primary and I think those are my my two main concerns Well, we thank you so much for being here. We've heard a variety of perspectives I'm sure you've watched some of the testimony we took on this last week and And it really runs the gamut and it's great to have a dip I think you bring a different perspective than some of the ones we've heard So I appreciate that so I have represented Cooper and then represent Cooper Thank you Don't you think we would sooner get rid of the primary process than Well, and that's been that has been an argument the second bite at the apple so to speak But are we in the business of? restricting candidates or do we want people to have a Choice and from my perspective a progressive one our democratic race for lieutenant governor And as I said, Dave's a friend of mine, but he's a progressive. He's always been a progressive He's not a Democrat and so why why should we allow him to move forward as a Democrat? Without the opportunity for at least one somebody that is a real Democrat to be able to run as an independent That's that's my perspective the way the system is set up right now and Even if we change the system and you only ran on one like last year I think there were four candidates for lieutenant governor and Say your candidate didn't make it through and you weren't happy With who was left there For the general election I Still think that it's And we all know it's extremely hard for an independent to win in Vermont that you know But I think it's still important if somebody has something to say that the other candidates aren't going to bring up that the Independents are allowed to run After the primary after they know who's going forward for the major parties The story that I'll show you the story for your folk or collection Election day to JV's go out to a man's house who recently had his leg cut off and he was concerned with that rather than the election and When we got there and asked him which ballot he wanted he wanted to progress the ballot He'd been pressing for a long time. He looked at the ballot turned it over a couple times I don't recognize anybody on this ballot. He said oh you want the Democrats ballot. Why would I want that it's where all your candidates are So it's confusing to the electorate also. It is confusing. Yes, and I would say on that same point there I've heard talk of Ranked choice voting which I think is extremely confusing and it is not as cut and dried as ranked Choice supporters say it is because say my first choice doesn't win and the election moves on to the second choice And somebody I really don't like ends up winning Well, maybe my fifth choice would have been my second choice if if I knew that other person was gonna win I I I stand by one person one vote as you said they don't understand Most people don't understand those of us who work in this building for years Kind of build the knowledge of the science of voting, but most people don't understand and quite frankly the in in some races the Democratic primary is The general election. I mean basically we've seen that in a bunch of races recently and Unfortunately 27% is a high percentage for a primary election And it's it's despicable that that less than a third of the electorate gets to pick and you know, it's unfortunate I don't know how you convince more people of the Importance of the primary election, but we haven't been able to do it in some years You know the results I think the the turnouts down in the teens which is really horrible And so is it really giving us a? a Slate of candidates that the general electorate really wants and I think often it doesn't and I think the primary system is part of what is Leading to extremes as I said more in in national politics than in statewide But in statewide politics there are certain pockets that are progressive or conservative and all too often The moderate gets taken out by a small percentage of the electorate in a primary when that moderate Would have likely won if they made it to the general Time for just a couple more questions because we have another witness waiting And we've got to get a new draft on the table in order to provide some context for that So just framing up here to represent a figure next John. Thanks for coming down You know, I agree with you that I think folks ought to be able to run after the primary as an independent You know one one example that I can get for sure you may remember, you know this Latest the Republican primary for the US House. There was an individual that was nominated that Said they wouldn't even caucus with Republicans There there was a maybe you saw some Conversation here about the possibility of somehow the party Putting out a statement. Well, they can do that anyway, I guess but again Maybe something on the on the ballot that That they're not supported by the party. Is that anything that you? Absolutely, if you have a candidate that's not going to support the party why would this party support them? But I think that's another one of the problems in one time In in my Senate race I actually got the Republican and the Democratic nomination and selfishly I took the Republican nomination because I knew It eliminated the possibility of the party Appointing someone, you know, and I you know, I Did it for my own self-preservation. It was the best thing for my chances for the election to not have to run against a Republican but in hindsight I That's one of the reasons I support the one candidate one party is because the local party Should have the ability to put a candidate forward if no one got nominated for their party and they find a viable candidate If I can just comment on that That's something else that I've mentioned and both Mike Mark cotton myself because there was no Democrat running against this Got the RD nomination. I Never gave it a thought other than I think you would agree with this possibly that Most of the Democrats up our way aren't necessarily involved in the Democratic party They just consider themselves Democrats and I think one of the things that I appreciate about that is maybe the Democrats that did vote for me as Democrats Appreciated seeing that there was a certain number of Democratic votes that got me on the ballot as a Democrat as well So, you know, I have mixed feelings about that as do I? representative because You feel I mean when you get that many right in votes, you do feel some some gratification Okay, there's a bunch of people who were voting on that other ticket that supported me and that's one of the reasons I I Said yeah, I'll take the the our endorsement, but in hindsight I I really feel that the electorate needs as as much As deep a field to choose from as as they possibly can and by taking those nominations We are eliminating the possibility of the of the county party putting together a slate of their own people Thanks, okay, so I'm gonna represent by wrong and then represent Rewiki and then we've got to move on You brought some great things to the table John. Thank you I think I have a quick question for you, but I just wanted to ask you this I've asked other witnesses this question, but I want to tap it into your years and decades of experience in this Elections world and service. Are you are you aware of or how many or any? hybrid candidates who are PRs or RP's No, that's one that I that's one that we haven't seen Yeah I represent her wiki Refreshing here, you know, we're never at odds to figure out what you think about something that's true The question of party registration keeps coming up. Hmm. What do you think about that? I've never been a fan of of party registration because there again that Eliminates the ability for independence and people who don't declare a party to vote in a in an electorate And I think it's our responsibility To try to get as many people as possible to the polls and I'm so frustrated as I've mentioned with the low turnout that we get in primaries and so I think Party registration flies in the face of one person one vote and every person should get a vote in The primary no matter what their party affiliation is That's great really for a primary right Yeah John thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much And I know so committee though where I would like to use our time this morning Is that I'd like to? Invite Will sending from the elections division to introduce the idea to us of the electronic return of Bounce and then I'd like to let mr. Carlin Smith who's joining us remotely Talk about that particular aspect and then I'll have legislative counsel walk us through The new draft 2.7 that includes both that new language about ballot returns And the proposal that I would like to make as a potential Compromise on the fusion candidates issue. So that's just the order of operations. So like invite will to take the seat if you're Ready to tee up the conversation about about returns Happy to chair my character. Thanks for having me. I don't have because we're still you know working on various The current draft I don't have a printed copy in front of me. So excuse my use my laptop Oh, yeah, please where I'm all about the electronics and a shooing paper And you want me to start with and focus on electronic return? Yeah, I think just so that we can use mr. Smith's time I want to just put a box around. Let's talk about that first sure Get the committee familiar with that issue and then we'll open it up and talk about the rest of the changes in the new draft Great. So thankfully I've prepared some notes specifically on this subject Great something worked on for a long time during my tenure as the Elections director at the secretary state's office, which for the record this is will sending director of elections When we discuss the issue of electronic return of ballots I think actually I don't have this in my notes, but I want to make really clear off the from the top an Important distinction between what we're discussing here and the concept of online voting It's a little hard to distinguish in your head But but the nature of when you hear people talk about the concept of online voting It's that's casting your votes via the internet or by electronically Sort of having having your ballot go directly from you into the results of the election via the internet Casting your individual votes making your choices individually by an electronic means Whereas that the notion the concept of electronic ballot return has been around for a long time Proceeds any of the technology that that people are referring to when they talk about online voting And can encompass any range of means of returning a ballot electronically Those have obviously developed over time The first states to allow and implement electronic return of ballots Some of the common ways were by fax machine for instance and Probably the most common a PDF attached to an email So voter prints marks a ballot somehow scans that ballot creates a PDF of it and attaches it to an email to send back to their local jurisdiction As such right the The debate Surrounding the electronic return of ballots has always been a weight of balancing of security keeping the voters vote secure and free of manipulation versus increasing voter access Making it easier for people to return their voted ballots to their local jurisdiction particularly military and overseas voters which I know is a the purview of this committee and Voters with disabilities is where it can have the the most Significant impact in terms of increasing access so it's always been a balance between those two things making sure We can leverage this technology to make it easier and in fact possible for a lot of people to vote While trying to make sure we protect the security of those ballots that are coming back That's your basic balance. I would say that for a long time for years the security arguments were kind of winning the day and Keeping a lot of this policy from moving forward for for legitimate reasons right to make sure we can get it right and to make Sure, there's no manipulation of ballots happening as they're coming back More and more over the last couple years in my experience The pendulum has been switch been swinging the other way toward this being really again The only means to facilitate the return of ballots for a pretty significant number of otherwise qualified registered voters who are either active-duty military even in the States Easier I would acknowledge for those folks to get a ballot back by mail, but military voters who are overseas U.S. Citizens living overseas and again voters with disabilities and really It's that providing an accessible means for an early return of ballots By voters with disabilities. That's really swing the pendulum There are multiple states I can provide lists of these if the committee so desires that have already been sued over there inability to provide a sufficient Accessible means for voters to return voters with disabilities to return their ballots during the early voting period Including our neighbors. I believe both New Hampshire and Massachusetts have faced such lawsuits and in response to such lawsuits Are either in the process of or already have Implemented a system like we're going to talk about for returning early ballots from voters with disabilities and military voters. I Think that if we don't take this step it is not a Just a clarifying question We don't take this step I think we can expect either lawsuit or threat lawsuit in the not too near future about Our lack of an option for electronic return for those with disabilities What would the mechanic That is what So just to level set right to let you know where we are as it's the case of many states right now We allow electronic delivery of these ballots only to a subset the same subset that we're going to talk about allowing return to we allow the delivery electronically to I have to stop myself every time I say you will cover voters because that's the federal law that applies these requirements You will cover voters are military voters and voters civilians living overseas So you will cover voters and voters with disabilities now can get their ballot delivered electronically We're talking about also allowing just those same subsets of voters to return it electronically I Have my notes here that the electronic delivery has been a great success. I really can't characterize it any other way The only reason that I haven't argued to expand it to all voters Which a number of states actually at this point allow is that it does at the point We're out with our technology right now require would require a lot of duplication of ballots That wouldn't be able to be read by the tabulators when they come back via this electronic return. I'll get to that in a second also This language proposes the same subsets of voters to return it. So currently as I said, you can receive it and You receive it through your my voter page as representative Hooper was referring to so what's important to note and remember about that page is that you log into that page with some Personally identifying information takes your first name your last name Of course your town of residence then either your Driver's license number or the last four of your social security number to access your my voter page in the first place Started by putting a PDF of the ballot and a printable version of the certificate That needs to go on the envelope with the ballot on the voters my voter page So they could download that PDF market by hand Download the certificate sign it put that certificate on the envelope put the ballot in it and mail it back to the clerk We took another step forward recently by implementing an online ballot marking device I talked about that a little bit with you guys when we did our run through and I was kind of set in the table for this Right, that is essentially the exact same interface that voters get at the polls with the accessible voting system, but You log into my voter page and if you've requested your ballot electronically You get actually an intermediate page before you come to the my voter page And it says access my ballot or go to my voter page if you use the access my ballot you go to This online ballot marking interface It's a separate software company that offers it's called democracy live I can talk to you guys more about democracy live at length or feel feel free to look them up leading provider of the service really around country The online interface, you know, it's cool and you can think about it again if you've ever gone in you should I'd encourage you to at the next election go ahead and use the accessible voting system at your polling place anybody can use it You go through the screen and you mark your choices like you would mark on a ballot You say print and it prints out with the ovals filled in it inks the ovals right there for you We spend weeks in our office testing the ballots and make insurance drop in the ink in the right place on the ovals From what you've marked and that it's well aimed at the ballot itself So the concept with the online ballot is the same thing you say access my ballot you use that option Again, we have to back in the whole thing So it makes sure to show you the right ballot right out of the 275 ballot styles that I've talked about You go through on screen mark that ballot. This is in the early voting context at home, right? You said I want my ballot electronically from the clerk. You're sitting at your desk at home May mark your choices print it out again package it up from that interface We also print the certificate language that you need to put on the outside of the envelope Takes two envelopes like it would we don't send you envelopes obviously when you're doing electronic deliveries So you got to find your own envelopes Put the certificate on one of them that has your ballot in it and then put it in a return mailer to go back That's sort of the means that we're talking about right so the difference here is You'll follow the same flow the voter will request it electronically right from that sub those two subsets I talked about you'd be able to access it use the ballot marking tool You'd still be able to go in and do the PDF print it mark it and mail it back if that's what you prefer and it's doable But this option would essentially allow you to do the exact same process make your choices and instead of the button Same print the button says submit to clerk And the ballot gets delivered back through this portal Does touch the internet at that point have to fully acknowledge right? Via the servers that this company administers the You will have the ability to I'm gonna get to this is the Lowest level of detail. I'll get to you too with about the process I think what we have to do is have the ability for you to either do the kind of checkbox Electronic signature to submit the certificate or that the technology is advanced to the point I really like it I was looking at about a month ago that we can also capture a signature the way to do on the keypads these days The more I thought that through though right that is dependent on the device that the person has at the home If they're working on a laptop like this It doesn't acknowledge my finger on the screen and if that's their only option I think we need to maintain an option to do a checkbox style signature. I'm gonna work on that a little bit more as we go So that's the basic process when you think about it the reason I said That the pendulum is swinging in terms of providing access to voters with disabilities Is that that process the on-screen marking is set up to work with any assistive technology that a person might have So they can do that on-screen marking for instance with a sip of puff if they have dexterity issues those same kind of those people with either some kind of dexterity issues for lack of a better term Voters who are blind or severely limited eyesight Of course then have trouble with the next step of printing the ballot out putting that certificate on an envelope Folding the ballot putting it in the envelope finding the mail or addressing it to the clerk and sending it back That's the rub for the voters with disabilities who really want to be able to conduct this early voting process privately That's what those lawsuits have been based around is that ability to Submit the ballot also without showing anybody around you your choices or risking the privacy This will allow for that as I said the same assistive devices would allow you to say submit to clerk The ballot will then come back to the clerk the clerks all also have a secure login to our system Right, that's where they do all these election administration functions And when a clerk logs into our election management system the first thing they come to is their dashboard common term Right, and it's got all kinds of daily duties and tasks. It's got the DMV registrations coming over It's got any online registrations coming in absentee ballot requests that might have been for voters for an election Now there'll be a new category you've gotten electric electronic ballot return on the dashboard click into that You might see a little list of voters two or three that have returned one this this way click into that voter print their ballot out on the That's the way that it it Solves the issue for voters with disabilities in the same way your military and overseas Might be on a submarine Might be in all kinds of situations You know out in the desert deployed at the front line where access to printers is difficult access to envelopes is difficult access to Postal services is either difficult or non-existent Talking with the my Contact at dem live recently he told me that he believes they've had a voter submit a ballot back from the space station through this technology I'm getting close It's important to note that No less than I think it's more than the number I hear different numbers from different sources all the time I should get the definitive one from the group that I trust the most but no less than 25 states Allow for some form of electronic return So I'm like a lot of election reforms that I bring to you guys at this table over the years We're actually not at the vanguard of this one at the front It's a very important I think Process to implement adopt and implement, but this is one where we're not at the cutting edge frankly It's it's being done across the country and it's been being done for a long time The important point is that we've waited for it to get to a place where we know the best most secure means of doing it as I've described That's I come back to the balance that we stated at the beginning right if it's it's imperative to allow these voters a way to exercise their constitutional right to vote I Hear from at least a handful if not more Military or overseas voters every election who can't get their ballot back on time because of various circumstances and beg me Why can't I just send you a PDF of the ballot attached to an email it would be so easy I? Think you could you could hear testimony from clerks. You should bring Carolyn. We were talking about it yesterday She was telling me stories about voters of hers Who vats for this for a long time? I? like to say that I Tried to only come to this committee With significant changes like this to the election process Where I've heard stories from voters Where the need is apparent among the voters in Vermont, right? I wanted to liken it to the example of same-day voter registration Before you could you could register vote up to an including election day It changed a bunch of times But the one the most recent one before that was five days before the election and the most difficult calls for me back Then when there was a registration deadline the Wednesday before the election Were calls from otherwise fully qualified voters between that Wednesday and Tuesday and telling them they couldn't register participate in the election Clerks would tell me the same thing of course hated those conversations That led to that really common-sense reform that solved that that problem eliminated those calls And it's been a great success since then This is this this is the Voter issue that I hear most about at this point Up to it in the days leading up to the election is how can I get my ballot back up time when I have to mail it and because of XYZ circumstance I can't do so So solving a real need here We've heard some advocates come to you even this year talking about certain policies that they consider the next Logical step in election reform. I won't even address those specifically But to me this is the next logical step and most important step and I wish to return that you all can take I Just got back. I was away last week at my national Association of state election directors meeting where nearly all 50 of us get together in a room for three or four days This was and has been over the last two or three years at that meeting Hot topic of conversation about how how states can move to implement this policy and do it in the right way and frankly If we can do this our portal is going to become a model for other states how to do this In a way that works and is as secure as possible I think every cybersecurity expert myself include. Oh, I'm not a expert, but I also will tell you Nothing is entirely secure. You're always trying to do the best you can to achieve the highest level of security around anything that involves transmission of information So I think what we can take some questions and then I'd like to Have our guests who's waiting online sort of illustrate some of this for us Let's ask Wilson clarifying questions And then we can come back to will because I think you're going to stay for the whole presentation That makes sense represented One of the questions I've got I guess is You know, there has been an issue with mail recently as far as you know getting held up and I'm just wondering about the internet as well. I mean for both Town clerks that may be receiving it and someone overseas. It's sending it any discussion around And again, like I say, there's already an issue with mail But what about the issue of poor internet or no internet? Last minute more more more so than if you did it two weeks in advance, you may be good to go You know, you understand that there's a problem. You can get at it again But if you're doing it a day before or whatever, you may be out of luck any discussion around that Not directly, but that's a legitimate concern. It's it's a it's a good thing to think about I think my immediate reaction is that you know what the best be the enemy the good But you do it if you Allow it and you hope that the internet is there to support you in as many circumstances you can I think it's more likely that somebody has internet access in 2023 than access to a to a post office In a lot of these situations. So you try to provide an option that leverages The means of transmission that they're most likely to have And you'll you'll see it's not directly to your point But a little bit related that the language is written that you have to get these back Right now it's written you have to get these back to the clerk by the day before the election I actually was just talking with Carol yesterday that you might want to modify that There's other places in the bill where we refer to the last day that the clerk's office is open preceding the election Since a significant amount actually have their last day on the Thursday or Friday before and so if you just say day Proceeding in you may end up forcing those to come into their office to check it on these things Oh, they can do so online at this point, but the the goal of that I would just to say that They're not coming in for instance on election day when the clerk is at the polls where they're very well Yeah, thanks, so we are gonna have will we are gonna dig into the language of the bill So I want to take the questions that folks have We have a couple hands up or represent hang-o next But if you have a question for will that you can save until after we hear our guest testify I'd really appreciate that from the committee, but go ahead represent hang-o. Thank you It's just a clarifying question. Did I hear you say that? when ballots would be returned theoretically electronically the clerk then would take the ballot and print it out off from their portal and Then I'm assuming the clerk has access to knowing who said the ballot and what they're who they're really So how is that? Private it's good question still with In a number of different ways in some of the states I've looked at Currently the language in the bill I've tried to keep it fairly broad Which is just I think a smart approach to Drafting statute right to not get too too many details in the statute The way it says is that it should be printed and treated the same as all other earlier absentee ballots a Little detail or nuance to that if it were left that way how the guidance that I would give to the clerks on that process is Essentially to mimic the process they use now for the opening of the ballots, which is a two-person process So I would have the clerk hit print from the system a separate election official Probably the assistant clerk would be the one to take it off the printer fold it Put it in a security envelope. They'll have those you know that they send out to the other voters Seal it. Let's just think about this this morning, which is the same You know that one clerk opens the envelope hands it to another voter after they turn it over to take the ballot out The assistant clerk puts in the envelope and can hand it back to the clerk to actually write the voter's name on the outside of the Envelope at that point and the voter ID and either put it in the bag with the rest of the ballots or process it has Some states just I know you want to move quickly share McCarthy and Interesting approach to that but I wasn't totally comfortable with all the committee to consider this language Also, is that voters who choose to use that transmission method acknowledge that they Give up their privacy in terms of the clerk processing the ballot and it's amazing 95% of the people who turn these ballots could care less If the clerk sees the votes, but I prefer a method that dictates the modicum of privacy And I definitely don't need to rush anyone I just want to do things in an order where we set up what the heck is the problem We're trying to solve and then really dig into the details about how to solve it So representative Hooper and then we're gonna go to our guests and You're okay with that I appreciate that I want to try to have the committee trying to tell a story here There's a little bit of my theater experience so Representative Lori Hoden a chair of house health care had Sent me an email a couple weeks ago that she had a constituent who had an issue Voting while they were out of country and so mr. Smith. I appreciate you being with us and joining us remotely today and Very interested to hear about your experience with trying to return a ballot So thanks for being with our committee Thank you for having me and just a clarifying point. I myself did not experience it. I have Twin boys sons both of them in the military One of them is on a rotation where he deploys on a regular basis. He's giving up trying to vote He tried at the early stages and then I have my other son Is actually a full-time guard member here in the state of Vermont Who was just recently deployed during a voting and was unable to vote through the process I've raised these children to be very involved in in Their local and state community as I feel like that's really the most Important especially if you're going to raise a family That you need to be involved give you a basic idea We've got two seats that are gonna come up on our city council and we have two people running To fill those seats, which means you don't have any options Which means if those people's views don't align with your views, then you need to be involved in in your government. So my family is is very involved very involved and paying attention and their vote is Very important to them and So to give you that this the story When my son from the National Guard Was deployed just recently He did get the ballot emailed out to him and then he has to start the process of Trying to get it printed trying to find two different size envelopes Getting it filled out and then finding a stamp and Getting it sent back The military does not like you to use their electronic equipment so he got his His ballot through his phone He cannot connect his phone to any of their printers You cannot just print anything and he's actually fortunate where he was at a base where all of this stuff was available to him or Was on the premises but not available to him and He's one of the higher ranking members there and still cannot just randomly print something without permission And then to try to find different size envelopes and a stamp to mail stuff Was unbelievably Complicated and obviously on deployments. You're only a base for a certain amount of time and then you're out on mission for a certain amount of time so as you lengthen this process of First getting permission to try to print something And then filling it out and then trying to locate or Requisition to different size envelopes to send this back. It is literally a nightmare and Extremely time-consuming and then he's in a different country and thankfully somebody brought this up There is a hot topic right now within our community about how they're not receiving mail It's about every fourth day. They're receiving mail because the mail is is having such difficulty being delivered at the moment It seems I think it's I want to say in our local election. There's potentially 15 or 30 days potentially that he might be able from the time that he gets his ballot to try to get it back Being overseas that's nowhere as an air enough time Especially for a military person To try to get something printed out filled out Find envelopes put it back together and get it mailed out and complete the mission that you've been sent there to do There is just not that time Most of these guys are communicating with their families almost on a daily basis even in a forward operating base via their cell phone through What is going to be the industry standard here? I would think through Two-point on that to occasion and And I'm very encouraged from what we're from what I was hearing About how they would be able to sign in they're not going to be able to print something and send it back in time So the fact that they would be able to print it and allow that or send it to the clerk and have the clerk Print it and run it through the machine and as he said 95% of these people are voting anyways as far as their privacy I will proudly tell you who I voted for if somebody asked me So I understand that we're entitled to our privacy But when it comes to our vote, we just want to have our vote counted and we don't particularly care who knows So I beg of you to to stay dedicated to this I I think that it does not surprise me that the lawsuits are happening and that they're going to happen You almost have to Put the military deployed military in the in the same means of They just don't have the access to get that mailed back in the amount of time that they're allotted I Get very passionate about this. My son was very passionate when he was calling. We had several conversations. He was So mad that he wasn't going to be able to get his ballot back And and as I said my son who's in the Air Force has given up even trying He doesn't even try to vote when he's deployed and he's within the so-com area. He's on a rotation He's home for three to four months, and then he's deployed again for three to four months on a regular basis So the majority of the time said it comes to vote. He's he's deployed somewhere is in this world And he's just given up because there's no way he's getting stuff printed out mailed back and getting it back in time and that's that's just not fair and These these people are dedicated to our to our country and our process There are first responders. They when they're home These people deserve to have their vote counted and Would I just recently had a loan never saw a person did it completely online? Everything's completely legal The amount of things that we can do online And and I and I get electronic and online is different right once you once you bring the internet in There's something a little more serious about that as far as security, but You know if I'm gonna be hacked and have my personal information taken away from me in so many different forms that I'm doing right now That if it happened in the process of me getting my vote in It'd be a whole lot easier to swallow and it'd be a whole lot easier to swallow from my sons And I am not saying do not take security lightly I want you to take it as important as it needs to be but please let my sons vote I've raised them to be that way They're gonna raise their children to be that way it would not surprise me if my some of my grandchildren end up in the military Please count their vote Mr. Smith, thank you so much for your testimony for your son service Really appreciate you joining us and telling their story today Are there folks who have any clarifying questions or anything that might be? I think you told a story that's very compelling and Illustrates what we're trying to accomplish with this proposal from the elections Division director, and I really appreciate you being here if you want to stick around as we hear a little bit more about the Mechanics of that if you want to stay in the zoom room, I'd be happy to have you stay with us Is there anything else you want to tell the committee before we hear a little bit more about the mechanics of how this works Yeah, there was just one more comment that is so this is my second time testifying I can't remember those last year a year before that I told this story and some of the military people were there and I Forget who the gentleman was But he talked about that the electronic system was out there And one of the things that he said that to wait the initiation of this Was the military security benefit? And and thankfully it sounds like we're taking the military piece out of the equation with the electronics that I'm hearing it being developed right now and I fully believe That's what you need to do Because the security obviously that the military has set up especially within a foreign country So the limit to their equipment is very very limited And as I mentioned earlier, these guys are calling home from a forward operating base that doesn't have printers or envelopes or mail at those forward operating bases They are calling home on their cell phone and they're in able to internet access the internet From the forward operating basis So please keep it into the entity between our state governments and our local governments and our Individual voters and do not try to take the military permission Not that I'm saying that would be a good thing if we could do that But the military is not going to compromise their security in any way shape or form And the fact that we're all carrying many computers in our pockets no matter where we go I think that's the way to go I'm encouraged by what I'm hearing and please stick with it and please make it happen and and that would be my final comment If you're willing to represent Cooper had a question for you Thank you for coming and talking with us Mr. Smith It's just sort of a Simple question when you talk to your sons who are deployed. How often do you do it? I'd like we're doing here as opposed to voice to hear Um For my son in the Air Force of the video seems to be more available than my son when he was deployed And honestly my sons also have their own families now So most of the video conferencing was reserved for their wives and their children Which I can't blame them dad generally got a phone call, but I did have several video chats as well From that from from my son who's in the Air Force from my son in the military or in the Army The majority of those conversations were either a phone call or text messaging So I really appreciate being here mr. Smith feel free to stick on the zoom room if you want to see the rest of The testimony on this piece and also feel free to sign off if you prefer to do that. I Am gonna Say that we should probably take a look at this section of the bill unless Director sending you you want to do any more teaming up before we have Tim walk us through and if you want to stay stay up and Just we'll have Tim up as well. That might make sense But I will Really quickly I made it through all of my comments. Well, but listening to mr. Smith remind me of a few additional things I just want to emphasize I didn't speak Specifically to kind of the timeline But he is entirely correct to say that the the local elections or coming up to right now present even more difficulty Under the law ballots for local elections only have to be ready 20 days before the election And that's where mr. Smith was saying they have at most, you know 20 but more if I electronically deliver on the 20th day They've got 20 days to get it back in the context of the federal elections press primary August and November It's back to the 45 day deadline. That's driven by The UO cover law that I referred to beforehand I mean that was sort of the first step at the federal level that they took to try and increase the opportunity For military and overseas voters to return ballots was this requirement that we have ballots ready 45 days before That's what in the past cost to move in the primary and everything else And that's where I think I described to you the other day if they've got a pending request with us Which most of these folks do because they're on top of it and care as much as mr. Smith will say That's when we blast those ballots out electronically right on that 45th day and even that even even having the PDF in their hand or the Accessible option online on the 45th day. You still you still are presented with the difficult PC described and getting it back I want to quickly put a pin on it that on mr. Smith again use the term. These are your first responders Many cases the military is right There are other first responders that go out and are deployed these days to the ever-increasing number of natural disasters we have The former Secretary of State Secretary condos the next one of the next steps He wanted to take in which I'd like the committee to think about it Not this year and years coming is expanding the subset of voters to first responders and maybe deployed to natural disasters Etc. Secretary former Secretary condos always used to tell a story about when the state a large contingent of Vermont state police Got deployed to respond to Hurricane Sandy and it was a couple days I think before either that I think that November general election I hear and he ended up in conversations with the head of the state police trying to figure out how to get Ballots down to these state troopers and return back in time And in fact, I don't think they were able to and that always stuck in former secretary another group that maybe Have this policy applied to them and really quickly also of mr. Smith referred a bunch to the hesitancy to use military technology to Accomplish any of this He couldn't be more correct. That's one of the reasons why it's advanced sort of so slowly There've been a lot of people over time that have asked the the military how the DOD how we might leverage certain technology They have to do so and there's been a Tension and just a consistent desire not to do so on their part Really quickly former secretary condos and I just to tell you how long I've thought about this in what depth we're part of a Subgroup of a council of state governments group called the overseas voting initiative. This is one of the pieces of Material that we put out two or three years ago About examining the sustainability of balloting solutions for military and overseas voting If you look closely you can see me and the former secretary on an aircraft carrier here But I raise it to say that It was a lot of time spent talking to members of the military who were deployed in various scenarios Describing how difficult it is to get that back on time learning from that experience And with that Questions from representative Hooper and represent Morgan and then we'll have Tim come up and walk us through the section I should get you those exact numbers should have had them prepared in front of Not over two thousand statewide The mechanics question and the reason I asked is you sniffed the Off did you see your actual son? I have a 95 year old aunt who doesn't see very long anymore when she gets a bill She holds it up in front of her Facebook device and I take a screenshot of it and pay the bill We might be behind in this this system seems pretty convoluted and when I walk into the polls The poll worker looks at me and says hi Bob and gives me a ballot and I do stuff with it If we gave access to the town clerks to have access to the photos in the MV For validity's sake Seems like maybe we're chasing that old dog here Technology One-on-one conversation Either show you a ballot that you're today have filled out and the town clerk takes a screenshot of the process of the door Processes for the individuals explain saying I want that guy Spending on how much faith we want to put in our plan for the two thousand ballot seems It is The thing I was gonna say it's just a statement not a question for everybody's that what were We'll be up against the military's got pretty heavy firewalls on their system. So we have to see What the mechanism would be to break through that firewall via? DoD Systems, I think there's going to be a look that needs to be given that if it's sort of Incept as part of it so it's it sounds to me in this so this brings up a question and actually for will which would be the idea here if I'm understanding it right is that while it might be going through The internet connection that is provided on some bases and in some places What we were talking about with mr. Smith's example of his sons really was about their own personal device personally Accessing publicly available cellular service that was not part of the secure systems of the military branch in which they were Serving so it gets around it gets around that so it would still require Then to have access to some non-secure Internet system whether of a cellular or wired in order to access this but if they're accessing the internet for any Reason like if they're able to FaceTime with their family then they'd be able to do this Otherwise they'd have to figure out some way to print a ballot under the current system I mean on the back and it sounds like it's really that printing That's the challenge like if you're if you're serving in the Peace Corps of Uganda, or you're a forward operating deployed Service person like mr. Smith's son that the idea that you're gonna have access to a printer In time to get that ballot mail back. That's that's the thing But so it's that they would still need to be on a non-secure internet system. Yeah, and That wouldn't always be the case because especially a poor operating base of father You would very likely that's your source of internet So I just throw it out there for food supplies and come home so well Am I right in thinking that the idea isn't necessarily that that person who you know They're serving in a very secure environment, you know where they don't have access to publicly available internet But if you in that 45-day window before a general election if at some point during that time They you know move They go to someplace Where they have access to the internet? Maybe they wouldn't be able to mail a ballot back in time But if they have access to the internet then they can just vote right there. Is that the idea? Yes And I would want to even look further. I mean I I Deferred the expertise here at the table, but it is it's just about having it that internet access And so if that internet access will be provided somehow by the military not publicly available in one of these locations I think it would just be about the policy around the use of that internet connection It may very well be that as long as they they can identify themselves as a service member and log in that then they Can use it for this purpose. I don't want to say that I know that that option is for close The pushback was more against That sort of development the military hosting the portal, for instance Use of in somebody can correct me whether if I'm referring to around the cat car is a cat for cat car That's your idea. It also has a chip in it that gets you to log into your computer device There was some hesitancy. I think toward toward having the ballot be returned upon access through the cat car I But I do think that as long as the policy of whatever Internet you're accessing would allow for it. This that's the only way that this would touch I was before my time I was getting money in Croatia and Bosnia and not in Sandin I arrived in Afghanistan. It falls into the heat dependence. Yeah, your location again, how these don't use Internet as much as they use The cell phone requires a cell tower But yeah, and again the military could restrict Yeah, how much of that can go in there? That's why but at some point in that whole month before the election if you if you're if you're able to get into a Publicly available internet, right? Then you're not sort of having to mail your ballot and it takes weeks to get from wherever you're deployed Yeah, go ahead represent a chase one quick point on that just quickly to put a Touch on that is that if you if you envision it, right? You're getting an electronically delivered so at some point to access it and and see that it's been delivered to you you need that internet access you Can turn this process around in about five minutes. I would I would my my Guess would be that most people do it right that one it's delivered, you know, you're sitting there online You don't know what's going to happen the next day at the base. So boom. I get it. I make my choices Representing and the they can still request a paper about be delivered and so if you do the in a sporadic internet situation you could request ahead of time to have a paper about it delivered. So it's kind of yeah Internet access isn't the only option correct and in good point and I think at this point Back to the envelope 90% or so request them electronically, but we have a subset of the you will call the voters who still like to have the ballot And have developed a system I guess for making sure they get it back Well, I'd like to invite Tim to come up and walk us through Draft 2.7 and director sending if you want to stay in the co-pilot seat Give us context or answer questions. That'd be great Thanks so much for your work on this team. Thank you very much. Sure For the record, my name is And a quick question for you chairman. Did you want me to start with the election ballot return language? Or did you want me to walk through the entire film at this point? Why don't we Focus right now on just the new I think it's section 12 That has this ballot return language and then we'll take a quick break and then go through the other new stuff That sounds good so before you you have Drought 2.7 of the committee bill number 23-0705 and The pertinent language that we're going to be looking at is at the bottom of page 9 Just for your visual reference everything that's highlighted has been introduced since You last saw this ability walk through together on one initial note I'd like to make about this just regarding the section numbers is I Mistakenly inserted these new sections probably in the incorrect places should probably be a few sections back versus 12 should be maybe 15 and 16 rather than 12 and 13 Just want to put that out there before going on These sections under the park regarding electronic ballot returns are 12 and 13 Section 12 permits the ballot certificate to be electronically formatted and section 13 permits voters who are ill injured or have a disability As well as military overseas voters to electronically return ballots be an online portal hosted by the Secretary of State's office Plenty by now So Tim just as I want to really be Delivering about exactly what we're talking about and I know director setting did a good job So just to be totally clear We're we're saying this section applies just to those Voters who currently are able to receive to get their ballot sent to them electronically overseas voters military service people and Reminder for voters with disabilities And that the portal would be the one set up by the Secretary of State So it's it's all controlled by the Secretary of State. Yes So turning to the language on the page 12 the men's title 17 BSA section 2342 Section 24 2542 is labeled signing certificate subsection a reads There shall be printed on the face of the envelope provided for use in returning early Early voter absentee balance or provided in electronic format if about is electronically delivered pursuant to subsections 2539 B or C a certificate in substantially the following form and then it's the text of the certification language early or absentee voter ballots of blank print your name I Blank solemnly swear or affirm that I am a resident of the town city of blank State of Vermont and that I am a legal voter in this town city and then aligned for the signature Subsection B Reads the early or absentee voter except the voter receiving a ballot electronically delivered pursuant to subsections 2539 B or C of this title must sign the certificate on the outside of the envelope in order for the ballot to be valid When an earlier absentee voter is physically unable to sign the voters name the voter may mark an X Or take an oath swearing or affirming to the statement on the certificate the officers who delivered the ballots shall witness the mark or oath and Sign their names with the statement the testing to the fact on the envelope I'll pause there, and I just like to also note that the reference to subsections 2539 B and C refer to those Voting groups that are electronically voting B is Those voters who are injured ill or have a disability Subsection C of that is military overseas voters I'm just real quick if I can jump in this this was really the cleanup Tim actually noticed this certificate language I was focused on the mobile look at later And this just says that the same language has to be provided in the electronic format that it's put on the envelopes that So this is the we're already doing it, but it's Good to codify it Any questions about The section 12 pieces I think we're good to move on section 13 amends title 17 vsa section 2543 Which is titled return of ballots Specifically subsection D and subdivision one Skip down to there, and this is breaks across the bottom of page 10 into 11 D1 Has been largely left in to provide context the actual changes are on D2 would you like me to skip down chair or read through No, that's fine. I think we're pretty familiar with Those under one are the current ways you can return a ballot and this is going to add the new means under two to reads beginning on line 10 to a All ballots electronically delivered pursuant to subsections 2539 B or C of this title and returned as follows shall be counted I By means of a secure online portal developed and maintained by the Secretary of State and Directly to the clerk before the close of business on the day preceding the election and II With electronic signature on the certificate required pursuant to section 2542 of this title prior to submitting Ballot to the clerk B a Ballot electronically delivered pursuant to subsections 2539 B or C of this title and then returned pursuant to subdivision to a of the subdivision Shall be printed by the clerk in preceding in the same manner as All other earlier absentee balance and in accordance with the procedures prescribed by this sub chapter Representing yeah, if I could so online 14 When it talks about on the day preceding the election is this will where maybe you wanted to make some correct That's where we could we could instead refer to the last day that the clerk's office is open for And I think that Seems that seems reasonable to me So should we go ahead and say for Tim when we see draft 2.8 or 3.0 that will We'll make that It's my experience the clerk is kind of in email contact with these voters Most typically anyway, and so we'll be saying you know get it to me before Thursday when my I'm gonna be out of the office, but I'm always conscious that we if we're making these accessibility changes like we did last biennium that I want to be Especially in the early stages of making a big change Not not putting undue burden on the clerk's so where we are expanding this a lot But I just want to make sure we're mindful of the clerks. Yes represent hang-up Is there a way that if this if these ballots are going to be sent out electronically to begin with? Disclaimer is put right on that original email that contains the ballot that they need to be returned by a certain date Yes Because that would eliminate the clerk that happened to remind people or specifically let people know If you are going to be returning this electronically it must be done Good suggestion representing Any other clarifications on this piece before Tim moves on All right, let's keep going Let's see turn to the top of page 12. This is subdivision D to C The voter shall be notified when a ballot electronically delivered pursuant to subsections 2539 B or C of this title And then return pursuant to subdivision a there to a of this subdivision Is received and printed by the clerk pursuant to subdivision to be of this subdivision? three An early voter absentee ballot returned in a manner other than those set forth in Subdivisions one or two a of the subsection shall not be counted. So C is a Lot of a lot of cross-referencing. So you're saying The voter has to be notified when their ballot Has been returned and printed by the clerk Yes, and that is accomplished through the my voter page Would that be enough here or is there something is there some other notification that we're talking I I read I Read this and put it in there to require kind of another level of direct notification in this instance rather than just the received date Which you know, you can see on the page For the reason of I just think there's enough I It's for voters like mr. Smith's sons who are so invested and Taken the steps and and may be concerned about The internet because they're glitching the in the access when I hit submit on this when I hit submit on the button Did it really happen? I suppose just the receipt date on the my voter page could accomplish that also But I think having another level of hey, I got this one that you submitted electronically. It's printed out You're all set. It's gonna be counted Was my impact there Representing so then are you envisioning? the clerk or assisted clerk having to compose a separate email to each individual who submits Maybe although you asking that question Gives me the thought that we could easily set it up as a system generated email as soon as the clerk gets print Yep, it's a good thought We do that with that we're literally all the pieces I was thinking I was like we email back And then I was thinking like a form response So they checked my monsters well Other questions about the words on the page for this section and the mechanics of how this might work. I think before we That we will obviously have Carol when she's up for it in the next couple of days Give us some feedback on this section, but Any other thoughts on this from the committee? Well, I just wanted to ask So when the when the clerk prints the ballot in this way, is it the same printing that they're using for the assisted voter system? Yes So there's no real distinction between a ballot that's filled out by someone with a disability that shows up in person Versus someone who returns their ballot electronically this way in terms of like about printed the same way No, and thanks for asking because that's actually a unique part of our system. That's really nice This is that what prints out looks and feels exactly like all of the ballots except that probably the owls are marked much more cleanly Oh, yes But because you asked me about that up. I want to say these printers actually that we've developed with the system I think I'd said this before can actually print on the tabulator readable stock and Make it so that these ballots don't have to be transferred And so what we'll do is order a small amount of stock for each of the clerks to have For the early voting and for the polling place for ballots that come off so they can be directly taken off the printer Great, so I would like to give the committee a short break before we go into the whole bill So let's say that we're doing a 10 minute break with a couple minutes to spare So we will be starting at 11 20 sharp and I'll we'll go off live and I'll say everybody back to 11 20 All right, so we're back I believe this will be our third installment on our YouTube stream of the house government ops in military affairs committee Here on this lovely once-in-a-morning and so we're back for a walkthrough of I believe we're on draft number 2.7 Am I right about that? Yes. Yes 2.7 is latest. Sorry too many tabs open so Tim, thanks for being with us we'll Start at the top and If you want to skim through some of the things we've seen we can take this at a precipice and then we'll we'll stop you and We we have questions And before Tim really goes through the walkthrough I'll tee this up So after hearing much of the testimony we had last week and also taking Some of the thoughts that we've kind of heard over the last few days and this morning even with mr. Rogers testimony I am putting on the table here with some of these new sections Not just the electronic returns issue that director setting is brought but also some new proposals that I would view Generally as a compromise around the ability to continue to have multiple parties Nominated listed on a general election ballot for my candidates So I'll have Tim kind of walk us through but basically this is this is my attempt at Trying to square many of the things not probably not all but many of the Request that we've heard in testimony and some of the concerns folks had about the elimination of multiple nominations So Tim take take away. Thank you very much. You're McCarthy again for the record. My name is Tim Devlin legislative counsel The bill you have before you the draft is 2.7 the committee bill number is 2305 and the changes As I mentioned before have been highlighted between draft versions just for identifying new tax Broad strokes quickly These highlighted changes accomplish a few different goals one is Let's see provides a candidate parties to be printed on ballots in a certain order removes the prohibition of cross nominations adds minimum thresholds for writing candidates in primary elections and As we had already discussed that addresses electronic ballot return Also, you'll consider this is kind of one-off little highlights we took the opportunity between drafts to correct some statutory cross references and Bring some of the text into conformity with our legislative council drafting conventions and standards so Just kind of making my way through to the bill top to bottom the first highlight you'll see is under the sore loser Pervit act at the bottom of page one. That's just merely changing the word may to shell for clarification Skipping down to the highlight in page two You'll see the same thing Now entering the part for see the dependent candidate filing deadlines has not been altered That's on page three or two Page three campaign finance limit for statewide candidates. It's also not been altered Also at the bottom of page three by annual committee reorganization reporting has not been altered You're at the top of page four. We see the first Area of substantive change and this is candidate parties printed on ballots. That's the reading reader assistance heading right there We jump into section six Which amends title 17 BSA section 24 74 or choice of party now some of this was already being amended in previous drafts, but Now it's been amended in a different and distinct way So I've just highlighted the entirety of the section for our purposes You can see Let's see it on line eight we have the subdivision a one has been removed in entirety and Two has been modified to It's going to take the place of one and I'll just read this follows subsection a of section 2 4 7 4 a A candidate is nominated by more than sorry if a candidate is nominated by more than one party The secretary of state shall print on the ballot those parties next to the candidate's name by listing in this order one the major political party for which The nominee has His or her name printed on the ballot in the primary To any major political parties for which the nominee received writing votes in any order from clients lowest Okay, I should note here. That should probably read any major political parties for which the nominee is Nominated not received writing votes that we intend to make that edit going forward three is Sorry three and four are substantially the same are indeed the same just a read number and These edits right here just kind of shift the order What was? be followed by C is now actually really C before B and I can pause there if we want to talk about Significance of that change or we can kind of go into the subsection being kind of finish out this section I think it would help if I give a three sentence Description of what happened there if you can see the stricken through language from the old a1 Was the process by which so any candidate at any level ends up receiving more than one nomination They had the opportunity there under a1 if you read through the strike through to notify our office of the order In which they wanted those parties to appear ER Right. Yeah, they would get nominated say that a Democratic Party by primary progressive party by committee nomination They could still send an email to our office and say I'd like to be listed B or Bp What have you? If they did not do that right within the time frame This is when we're in the crunch to create the general election balance So we got to put time frames and deadlines on these things. It was 10 days I believe if I'd be on the 10th day following if they didn't do so We then had to have a fallback standard order in which we put those multiple party nominations on the ballot That's what we reverted to for what now will just be Dictated or the candidate doesn't have the option under this language as it is to tell our office to switch and Instead it says we are going to list them on the general election ballot in the following order and To summarize a BCD It's the party you had your name on the ballot in the primary and one So that you printed name on the ballot then if you were to have received the nomination by right-end votes That major party would be next then any party by which the committee a party committee nominated you Major party and then a minor party committee nomination That's gonna be the default order in which they fall under this language and as Tim noted with regard to the right-end one It's drafted right now to say any party in which you receive right invoked That was not the intent. It should be you know a party by which you've won the right-end nomination would be in that slot that third slot representation We've talked about Primaries and then Right-ends and nations. I've just been kind of assuming but I figured I should probably ask out loud Can a person have their name on more than one party's primary? That it's specifically Not allowed in the law So not to be obtuse about this but there have been a number of versions floating around. This is seems to me like a Total turnaround from what was previously in my which I Would say not a total turnaround, but a half way so So as I as I teed up before this is my attempt at a compromise Around this issue about fusion candidates So the way I would free frame this for what I'm trying to accomplish is that The original proposal on the table just said you pick a lane You only get that one nomination and you cannot have a second one. Yeah, this says you file as a DNR One party That is the first one that will appear on the general election ballot if you win And as we'll hear further if you do win that party primary You could also Either be written in or Nominated to fill a vacancy by another party and get take a second or Perhaps even a third or fourth Party designation so it allows us to preserve for folks who have the intent of truly having more than one party Nominated and they have a real desire to have that as a candidate on the ballot so that they can say to voters you know, I have been nominated by This party and this party and maybe even a third or fourth party This allows that to stay in place. So this is a compromise where it's raising the threshold for doing that And also saying that the one you file on has to be the first one that appears But it is not completely getting rid of the potential for so-called fusion candidates. So thank you for that But so I'm understanding the first listing is the party that you Declared that you were going to run on that ballot into primary any bright ends that come in during the primary This does not address that you have to have an actual party nomination To be on the general election ballot As a dual party So we're we're gonna get it. We're gonna get into that in the next pieces But what I'll say is that the intent here is that similar to the way it is today if you And I'm assuming that you want that Nomination you would file or your consent to be a writing candidate So we've part of what's what we have to hold in your head here is that this this bill in its entirety envisions this new thing of Filing a consent to be a writing candidate and get your votes counted The Friday before the Friday before for for a primary election. Yes So the idea is if I'm you could do it in a but the idea is that you would file and say, okay I'm running as let's say a Democrat and I also would like to be a writing candidate and try to get the Republican nomination as well and so if I filed my consent form and my petition for my First one for my D in May and then sometime between May and the Friday before the Friday before the primary election I would also file a consent to say I'd like to have my votes counted in the arc So I have as a candidate some Intent to actually want to be a fusion candidate, but all I have to do is just file that form then Further, I'm saying you need to get at least 10% plus one of the writing On of the total ballots cast so if there are 500 Republican ballots cast in your district in that primary You would need to get 51 votes So that we're raising the threshold that leads to where I think Representative shy was trying to make it in each 97 where instead of it being you know 25 it's at least 10% or the number of signatures whatever is higher. So that's what you're going to see In the the further sections that Tim will walk us through So that Essentially throws out any If you don't do all that and you don't receive the first prize number of votes that throws out any votes that Somebody would write you in on the ballot, but you don't get enough so their vote essentially is gone thrown out It doesn't matter, right? So What we're specifically talking about here is just the ability to get a second nomination So that candidate what our would still appear if they won their major party primary that they had filed in they'd still appear on the general election ballot So I would I would say that those votes are similar to when somebody for instance like I had some people write in my name on The other two primary ballots where I wasn't a written candidate. I wasn't seeking that party's nomination I'm glad there were a handful of people who liked me that affiliate with other parties That's great, but it didn't actually advance me at all in the primary because I wasn't seeking those nominations That those in a sense are kind of count the same as if somebody wrote their own name in What would happen in the situation where the candidate lost their primary primary but won the right for the other party Under under this if you file on that thing You lose that the primary We this this bill envisions a sore loser loss so that you would not be able to appear on the general election ballot I would know since we're right there I think we would have to amend the language to accomplish that goal right now It says you can't be nominated by another party's committee It doesn't foreclose the option of you winning by writing right the party exact Okay, if that was the intent of the committee we'd have to write that Right now So the way this is crafted right now That if you could potentially lose Your major party nomination, but then also be but then when I write in for it and open and have your name You carry on the ballot. That's how I read this. Yeah, exactly. Interesting. That was not my intent in the drafting The other part of this that I think that's flawed and your thinking is you're thinking that the people that voted for you as a DRD They may not be you can pull you can pull a democratic ballot and be a Republican. Oh, of course Yeah, so, you know, I think the way you explained it to me. It sounded like And and Representative Hango was talking about it too as far as those D votes not necessarily showing up that way where I Again, that's that's what I don't want to lose in a sense because a lot of those may be Republicans It wouldn't put they pulled a democratic ballot so So if I want to understand the that I think the issue you're bringing up is specific to The the idea that we're only counting the right ends when somebody says they they want to they've consented to be a candidate So you're you're saying that You you would prefer that those still be published those be recorded and published. Yeah, okay. I think when we have I Did not think that would be the the key point of Thinking in this at this point this juncture in the conversation, but I'm glad to have that flat Represent Morgan maybe I'm getting ahead, but I'm sure you're talking about it, but to go one step further You win your set all that your primary primary that you filed for in May you get the 10% plus one for the other party and You are the number one that gets you to the number one of that Party as well Then what? I'm gonna make you censor my So if you've essentially won if you've won two primers, yeah, then you get to have two names credit on the ballot So that was really Yeah, you got it now. That's exactly it. That's what I was trying to get on the table was right That's what I thought you were getting at it. I think that's the Okay, so that yeah, that is a that is a that's a change for we were yeah, okay That's the compromise. Okay. Got it. So the fusion candidate congress with concepts still exists here It's just sort of the access to the structures Yeah, so when then when you're living I'm getting even another step out so then they go to listen to general election You would be then a RDD are No, oh no, so yeah, so you can only missing a component here. I'm sorry. Yeah, you dance on it, but so So we have Three major part party primaries, right? Yeah, and so if you win The one you filed in so let's say I run as a Democrat Yeah, that one you got a file to get the P for instance Yeah, and I get the 10% plus one and automatically in there then I could be a Under this I a Democratic slash progressive on the ballot On the general election ballot, right? And that's yeah, I think you were saying that's what I'm saying You'd still would have that fusion candidate capability. Yes. I thought we were trying to wipe that out completely was not I'm just saying that as that was why I thought we were heading and now it's So after hearing very strong Sentiment on both on the committee and from the folks testifying. I am putting on the table for the committee's consideration today the idea that instead of getting rid of the Second nomination possibility of the fusion candidate possibility that I'm raising the threshold and Making it more intentional than I think it is today the key being that the 10% plus one of them got you Okay, well, and also you do need to file the intent to The Friday to the Friday has to be like recognizing as an individual that you're in fact Because you put a Facebook post I'll say please do you have to be deliberate about it very much Oh, that messed me up with what you just said Because my understanding was that if you got that 10% plus one Regardless of whether or not you filled out the consent form for that party you would get it And now you're telling me you still have to file that consent form even if you get you know the 10% plus one Right Before the most even help yes, so so what this envisions is that somebody who wants to be a fusion candidate It's a pretty low. I mean you just have to file a consent form of Week and a half before the election and and then get the votes but You'd still have to be a Victor though you couldn't just be that you got 10% you'd have to be enough Oh, yeah, you can't just be you know You're gonna be like fifth in the pile and go because you got 10% you gotta be the right one or two If it's a two-seat district number one or a two-seat district one or two Yeah, yeah, and it's the the plurality of language that I think is in here helps accomplish that And I'm seen director sending calculating through listening to these questions if you have anything you can say to clarify any of my comments That'd be great just a little bit and just because it seems like we're at a point of good understanding here that the Hypothetical that was laid out is right, you know that the primary you filed the petition in you win that yeah That's gonna be you get the D Yes, and it is what you said rep Higley you both file the form and meet the threshold is how it's drafted right now You could get the next party's nomination Yeah, what we were just looking at under the choice of party the effect of that is that you can no longer flip those This is telling you what order those need to go in and it puts the one you filed in first Your primary one is your first the one that you won by right in second And then I just wanted to note that there is there's still the third option under here, too To be entirely clear that a party committee can then also nominate correct So you did DR you filed in D you filed the write-in paperwork and met the threshold So you got the R that way you could also have the progressive party committee nominate you as a P And under the order laid out here you would at that point be DR P That's he was securing a nomination by right in this in second place and then by committee nomination in third place if you're allowing for dual nominations unless you want to carve out something else that says except not by party committee you have to do that Because that's a valid way to nominate again. It's still under the chapter I think at at this point what I was hoping to accomplish what I was hearing from all of the experience testimony My you know years of doing elections and participating in them in one way or another was that the Process of nominating have a little bit more integrity than it has today And I and I hold intention and I think one of the reasons our brains melt when we think about all of this is All of us had different ideas of what the party nominating process is for Who's a selector it who selects our candidates should be and I think to representative Hickley's point, you know, we we there's nothing in here that Changes the fact that we have open primaries where a person who most of the time votes in one major parties Primaries or for that party's candidates on a general election ballot they can Choose in any given primary year to vote in another party's primary That's yeah, that's been the status quo over mine and this bill doesn't change that but it does say if you want to have multiple notifications You should be a little more intentional about it or allow the party committee To be part of that nominating process. So this does preserve intentionally I wanted to preserve the party nominating to fill a vacancy. So it's work. It's for deliberate. It's more formalized Yeah, and I would say that And I know some folks will not like this, but I think that for for me I care about my party's brand and I think that and many Democrats many Republicans for their brand for the chair of the Vermont GOP talk about this exact thing So this is not a partisan Thing but in in each of our parties, I think we care about what is the the nominating What is that badge that's on that's officially printed on a ballot the general election ballot for all those voters? What is the designation of that primary of that party mean? What does it actually mean? What does it signify and it's almost like a workshop test right now? it's like I just want to have it be a little bit more meaningful a little bit more clear what it means and in our races, you know right now You know how it's half of the number of signatures is the threshold So if there's a vacancy and you get, you know, 30 votes 26 votes, you know, you've got You you absolutely have locked in that that party's designation on the general election ballot and I think that's a huge part of why you have, you know, 60 Ish candidates in the last general election that were quote-unquote fusion candidates And I think if you asked many of those those candidates Do you really identify with the values the platform do you associate with that party? That's your second designation. I think a lot of them would say you know I You know, I've never voted for that party or rarely have And I think just a little bit of intentionality around asking for that consent form to be filed and then getting a slightly higher threshold of votes Provides the increased integrity that I'm trying to get in for this piece of the bill representative I think as a party we expect a relationship a mutual relationship that we're not looking for a friends with benefits relationship That we want people showing up for more than just the election with your name on it or Not making that 2 a.m. phone call from the bar on Saturday night How are you getting your votes? I don't want to push this not a more too far So let him To the party if we're gonna and I want it to be mutual and I think this is where it's going We want people to step up. We have an open tent. You know, I can say that Think there's pretty wide spectrum of thought that you're gonna get in a Democratic party and that's fine with me The people who make the commitment to the party are welcome and the people who just show up Once in a while or when it's convenient. I don't I don't appreciate Clarify I think what I'm hearing is an ask for party registration kind of direction is that What you're saying that but I don't think you need to go that far to expect a mutual mutually beneficial relationship and I think what I'm Trying to do with my compromise to hold open for people who truly have Multiple party affiliations are supported by People who vote that there is that it's it's a higher more meaningful threshold That's what I'm putting on the table. So what I'd like to do with the 10 minutes we have before lunch Is to walk through The actual words on the page just so we can get as far as we can with the bill itself We are going to take more testimony on this bill and I also Wanted to I Would really like to Try to Get Carol Dawes Feedback about the electronic ballot returns So if floor is going to be short today very short, I might say we come back after the floor briefly and and pick this back up So represent a pooper and represent a water sentence. No Okay Yeah Hey, so she has asked to testify and I had and I Am not barring members, but it's it's it's very touchy having members of the body come and sit in a way to see So I'm Open to that if there's a person if there's a specific perspective, you know John Rogers was here this morning for instance But well, I do reason for these are former members sitting number Having sitting members testify So I'm open to that and I want to I want to have voices But they have other ways to tell us sitting members have a lot of opportunity to tell us what they think about a bill without being Sitting in the witness seat We haven't changed anything about what I had originally proposed which is that independence file In a at the same time that major party candidates file And the reason we haven't talked much about independent candidates is the the major party primaries Are their own there are three separate elections that are happening at the same time And so if you're running as an independent, you're not trying to get a major party designation You are an independent so all of this stuff comes down to Us talking about them the relationship between the parties and the state and the Secretary of State's Direction to the Secretary of State about how to administer those major party primaries So if you're an independent That those parts aren't really relevant to you the only change I made from current law on my original proposal And it hasn't changed in this draft And unless there's some piece of this Timber will that Has some tangential impact on it, but it was just to move it up so that everybody files at the same time And I think that's a major policy change or major change for candidates who Would like to be independent candidates And I think it's eliminating some people who may decide later to run And run this independence and I'm not saying they're sore losers because maybe they weren't gonna run anyway I'm just kind of thinking About my own situation and the election that happened prior to me getting appointed And I think had I really had I known The candidates who would have run Which I couldn't have known if I had the same filing If I were an independent this is all if I probably Would not have known but maybe wouldn't have put my name in after the primary Knowing who won the primary and this is this is very concluded. I understand a lot of people probably wouldn't understand it But the person who ended up winning ended up not taking their seat And that's how I got appointed So had I known that that person would have won the primary I may If I were so inclined to Thought about it really hard This is a chance to jump in as an independent for instance, so I don't want to take that Just wanted to bring that up because we hadn't talked about that today Skim over that section Percenture Thank you. I hear what you're saying. I think At least in my mind I picture independent candidates as an intentional candidate who has decided they want to run to represent their people They just don't feel like the parties Align with what they're wanting to accomplish and I think what you're describing at least in my mind It would use the path of the right in Candidates so anybody can do the right to the Friday before the Friday or whatever for the general Filed their consent and that's there. You know, I just decided at the last minute. I want to run years that have to do it and I At least the independence that I know are much more intentional about their Their choice to run. Yeah, I appreciate that and I didn't mean for it to sound like it would be a last-minute thing It was just a really odd situation that Hard to describe But I also think some of the the scenario that you mentioned representative Hango It seems that the filling of a vacancy process and the appointment process that we have when you know If somebody wins and then they decide not to actually seek the office that there are other remedies then allowing folks After the primary to files independence, I actually am you know, I'm very obviously putting this on the on the table here From the original draft of this bit of this bill language I really think that people who want to run for office should you know declare that they are running for office and If they're running in a primary or running as an independent, you know That it should just be one system the idea that we kind of can like wait and see who the candidates are and then jump Into an election you could do that as a writing candidate But I just think that people who are intentionally, you know, they've decided they want to seek an office They're thoughtful about it that they should everybody should kind of pick a lean and get in there And that's been my belief from the beginning of this process and then in hearing all the testimony and all the thoughts And the hallway conversations and people calling me up and emailing me, you know, I've put This compromise proposal around the the multi-party nominations process on the table We'll have we'll have some time to think about it So I Don't know if Tim is available this afternoon, but but if we could just back up Either at the end of our The CCB testimony that we're going to hear this afternoon Or when we get back from the floor because I think floor is going to be really short. I don't want to keep people super long today, but I Would love to at least get through the language by the end of the day and then We've got more on this scheduled on this tomorrow afternoon There's a lot there and we may so I think If they're are there any before we break for lunch, are there any pressing burning things folks want to put on the table firstly And I'm also not necessarily talking about myself The only thing I guess I would like to say Mr. Chair is in regards to representative hang goes Importance of listening to somebody who's an independent, you know, we've heard from the press the party the Republican Party Democratic Party the independence don't have that party apparatus And for you to say that you know, well we can we they're in the building We're going to hear from them. Yeah, we're going to hear from them on the floor of the house And when it gets that far, it's pretty much a dumb deal So I that's why I think it's important to so I don't want to silence any voices So we will hear from at least an independent candidate before we take a vote on this bill I will commit to doing that. I hear that one Thank you. Thank you represent fire. Okay, so my Comment is actually more for a legislative council and structural non-policy I saw some her his is in there, and I believe you're structurally trying to get away from that I know there We will update that to strike any gendered language cool just an officer Yeah, I think we're getting away from there, too. It's mostly a candidate Yeah, and I think that was an existing statute right represent fire on it wasn't in the pieces There was a highlight on that one. Yeah, so that a lot of existing statutes Yeah, that's confusing Yeah, it would just pop in my eye Thank you. No, that's a good point So great. Well, we will either pick this back up later this afternoon if we have time or we'll get back to it tomorrow but I appreciate the really thoughtful conversation this morning. I know there's a lot here and We will be back to it soon So we'll adjourn for today and go off live and I'll see you all back at one