 I'm Anne Smith, and I'm here again with my guest, Anthony Bazia, my fellow co-founder of Project Bazia and a fairly new non-profit called Africans United. And we want to continue our conversation about Bazia's homeland, South Sudan. And the CPA, which is the Comprehensive Peace Agreement, the anniversary of that, is coming up this year, it will be the 10th anniversary. And Bazia, as a native of that country, is quite concerned that although there was a huge celebration when the division of the North and the South took place, there has not been any follow-up celebration since. And we've both looked at this problem and wondered, you know, why is this so? People celebrate usually because they're really happy something happened. And on the day of the CPA, the first CPA official date, you were there. Again, I'd like you to tell me just a little bit about what was going on. What were people doing, and how were they acting? I think one of the things I almost describe it by, if you have a heavy thing in your head, and you drop it down, that was a big happiness for them. But... I've seen pictures. Yeah, but I think there was not enough leader to think about what was the next move to South Sudan. Right. But the CPA agreement outvoting 98 to make South Sudan... 98%, 98.9%. Yeah, that's a big number. So the people got what they wanted. But again, as you and I have talked about many times, this was a group of people who had never really been an official part of any governmental system, other than the tribal level. And the tribal level, from what I've been able to learn from my time now spent with refugee families from all over Africa, is more like a big family. Together, yeah. With one leader, he's sort of the papa, and he makes most of the decisions. He has elder relatives who advise him. But you don't have elections to choose the chief of the tribe. Do you? No. At the same time, through the family, just the technique of the father, the grandpa, like, yes, me, from my grandpa to my daddy to me, it became part of the family. There's no voting in other way. All right. I do know there are countries in Africa where there is a selection process, but I don't want to get into that right here. In general, a tribe is more like a big extended family. And it's not that big. Everybody knows who the people of power are. They don't get written about in the newspaper, but everybody knows them personally because they've had some kind of contact with them at some point. You know, I'm going to do a little aside here. For example, I know one thing that interested me that your father did, young men and women could go to him, right? And they would stay in your house. And in fact, you often found when you went to bed at night, your bed was already occupied by a tribal guest. Nobody said, Bezier, do you mind if I sleep in your room? They just, they were there, right? They took over. And while they were there, and how long did they stay with your family during this time? We almost believe, give them 90 days just to understand the system because Khatum was the capital and then they came from the village. They're not really familiar with traffic and sometimes ID. It includes a lot of stuff. And if you look at it, my dad was offered two choices of maybe get back to school or maybe have a job and they're still going to go back to their background, what they done before. So that 90 days was a little bit better to give them a little better understanding. Okay, and he would talk with them during this time and explain to them what kinds of things, things they were totally unfamiliar with. And I think that's a key part of the other subject, the bigger subject we're concerned with is that a large number of people who live in Africa live in these small villages. They have never seen a traffic jam. They may not have ever had any experience with indoor plumbing or electricity or even a system other than what they know immediately around them in the village. And I will add something that I learned, particularly from talking to other Africans, one man said to me one day, in an African village, if you see a child running, everybody stops to see why is that child running. In other words, everyone in the village feels a sense of responsibility for the other people around them. I mean, that's a very strong, tight knit community. But you take someone from that environment and you bring him to the city where there are laws and governments and police and all kinds of organizations he has no contact with. He's lost. Yeah, it's more than different. So I think when we, again, I've seen the pictures of the celebration of the CPA. I've seen people leaping and screaming and waving the South Sudanese flag because like you said, they felt like a great burden had been lifted. But now what's next is something they have no idea of what to do. Who was the person they were planning on having who would have solved all their problems once the CPA went into effect? Who did they expect to lead them? Who was going to be the tribal leader for the whole country? I mean, Jungran can be a good example. He was the man who had big image. And I'll just back up and again for our non-South Sudanese audience, tell them who was John Grang? What did he do? Yeah, Jungran was more educated. He studied even in the United States, but he was a military commander through the military of captain. Okay, for the SPLA? For the SPLA. And even he was one of the high level in education and the military of Sudan when Sudan was a country. Ah. Yeah, Grang studied about farming and he have... Where did he do that? He started in Sudan and he went to Khatum because everything done and then he came to the master in the United States of Iowa. Okay. Yeah, he was more educated and he was more to the leadership. And even him name he mean a lot in Dinka tribe. And why would that matter? Dinka tribe have a call, if you see example like Baria, if there's a fake child there's a name for that fake child, there's a second child as the name. So different tribe have a different way to look at the fake child, out the name. Because Africa in a general way they have their own name and the same time even they're like other famous people. So all these give Grang more way to look at him, of a leader in the community. Because if you go back to, I can just give example to the Dinka tribe leader, they have three level of leader. John Grang was one of the people who born have a gift and when he get that gift and plus education he became willing to do more. The other leader in Dinka tribe there's one who will get married and his house is open to the people. There's a second. There's a third one who go through the channel of education and get that education done and be a leader. So they have different level of the leadership. Okay. So not everybody goes and does all three of those things. Right. It's everybody can have different. You specialize. You specialize. One of those. So you go to other tribe, like if you go to being a Malua you have different way to look at us. Like us we never married the man we saw because we believe the blood will affect the family. You don't want to be too closely related to your wife. Right. So you go to Dinka tribe, they married close. You go to other. So there's a lot of stuff similar but they have a benefit to different things. Like us we don't believe in a group, we believe in dependent. One person, one of the thing you need to get your good education, good skill, the other group believe in the big group. So I think that's one of the other challenges too. And I think too the Dinkas are nomads. They don't stay in one place. They're moving according to the weather and I think the other main problem and I wish if they start thinking about it. If you raise an animal you need to think about the farming. Well I say that I grow up in Philly and I grow up with the Amish. Amish was not raising an animal on behalf of the way that I was taking animal, moving around. So the grass in one guy's farm was gone, he didn't go to the next farm and take all his grass, right? No. They raise food for the cow, different level according to even the horse eat different of the cow, our goat. All these animals have different take when you talk about food who concern them. So Amish try to prepare those different animals under them even on top of that they have chicken. You can bring the grass to the chicken to eat. No, no chickens don't eat grass. I'm trying to give example like Dinka and other tribes of South Sudan who raise the whole animal and I think that's the other issue between the Dinka tribe and the farming people like Fertig and other. Now I'm going to briefly explain again for our non-South Sudanese audience. There are tribes that are known by their name like the Dinka, the Nuweir, the Shiluk, the Zandi and they pretty much could be divided into two groups. Those who raise animals, pastoralists, herds and they go from place to place. They have a permanent settlement for six months of the year but then they go to another one. That's one group and they're a huge portion of the population, probably more than half. The other group are for the primarily farmers and what's interesting I happen to know from the research I did for one of our books is that the Zandi tribe who are in the South, they are farmers almost exclusively and there's a funny reason why they are. They had serious problems with malaria and malaria began to, they were once pastoralists. They had cows primarily and then along came an epidemic of malaria which doesn't just affect humans, it affects cattle as well along with the titsi fly, the sleeping sickness and they lost all of their cattle. They had to find a new way to survive but when you think that they were people whom again, they were nomads at that point. They moved all over the place because cows eat a lot and they didn't have the practice of raising hay and alfalfa and all that stuff. So at some point in their evolution as a tribe and it was probably hundreds of years ago they switched to farming and it became their practical solution but it also completely changed their lifestyle, their way of looking at the world. So now you have a country where again as I said at least half the people are living in a lifestyle that no one else in the world practices except a few people like in Mongolia, there are herdsmen, I believe in some of the Arab countries there are still herders but this is a lifestyle that it's obsolete in the modern world. You know even in Texas we don't let our range animals run all over the place from farm to farm eating all the produce that they're growing for the supermarkets, right? So that was a problem. But Garang, getting back to letting you speak, sorry, Garang was raised in that tribe. He was a pastoralist. He was more open-minded and he had a better chance in the love of his family and then even get a better education. And one of the other credit I'll give Garang to start about farming it gave me a different way to look at him and this is the one other thing if he was still in the life the military of South Sudan I don't want to say before the movement was disparate but since you become a country you became to be a military. He was thinking military have to be doing a farming and he was one of the people he doesn't accept getting the food through UN or other nation. Oh he didn't want to be a charity case. Yeah so I think the man have more credit and maybe some people was around him they never learned much to take over in a better way because for me I look at it if you don't have a chance with John Garang was when he was in cartoon but this 21 year old 22 until he came to the power and he died somebody supposed to be learn something for this man. Somebody supposed to be willing even if you can be died in the process in the name of John Garang he would make a point about what he is. Now we just celebrate about him we almost just placing him but he have something to offer but nobody today really willing to stand up and say you know what I want to be the legacy of this man even if I'm gonna die in the process I feel the 21 year even regarding it was the movement of South Sudan but I believe this man have a lot to offer but I wish somebody and he was killed he was killed and I think we should mention in passing that there I know from talking to all the South Sudanese how did he how did he die first of all just the bear facts. According to the taking place since he was the vice president of Sudan at that point he was vice president of Sudan. He take a helicopter or a plane to Uganda official visit I can say yeah and arrived then and again you have to be look around Uganda another mission through a mission. So he was well known to other leaders. Right so we just I was just in I believe I was in Philly that time and I was just hang out with my couple friend of mine and a news came around in the United States it was the evening and somebody called me visited as a bad news I was like what do you mean bad news they say there was a helicopter and John Garang was on it and have a crash. So when you you say a crash of the plane or car doesn't mean accident but I don't know how that accident take place I don't have access to the Sudan government because all my life on my house has Sudan and today I'm not even complaining of thing I'm not there and and it's hard but I can go by the news would say the information who came out is an accident or a crash and that's why take place. And there are stories there are stories the black box the helicopter was found and that there was nothing wrong with the helicopter and I believe the stories I've read the newspaper account say that the there was some kind of weather problem and the helicopter crashed into is it Imitant it was just one it's the one big mountain in South Sudan which I think makes me start say wait a minute how can you hit the one mountain if there's only one mountain but so there's a lot of mystery the bottom line is though Garang is gone. That's one of them I'm trying to just say we can talk about what happened to him that I'm just feeling the man have a lot to offer not always in the level of Sudan but just remember the story in the beginning because the man was fighting in the name of Sudan and name of the Africa and I'll give him a credit because look at him movement of him background of education down in school in Sudan went to United States studying Iowa all this is not accident the man have a lot to offer but to just go like that and I wish one of the day that somebody gonna came somewhere and somehow that's my hope and figure out but again in the in the long run it makes no difference he's gone but he had people connected to him you referred to the ones to me as as the John Grang's gang the people who who knew about his dreams that he shared his ideas with you mentioned somebody named I believe one ego Fagan Fagan and John Gara Fagan one ego they used to call them the boys of John Grant okay John Grang's boy they say a column John Grant boys special for Ghana moon until today everybody believe he was those people even react my shower all these other leaders there was very close to John Grant and sometime in the way they put it they are boys of John Grant but I like his gang yeah but I hope and I never I was expecting me my person I'm not saying what I'm expecting everybody have to agree with me I was expected if one of those boys who was close to him and until today fighting to keep him in me maybe it was balancing stuff to the to save all the people life because since I didn't get depended celebrate one time or two time if I remember correctly and now we're here to talking about 10 year after the depended but I can guarantee you this more than eight years no celebration only the last one we did last year was a soccer game but it was not bad I can thank you for myself will try to do something according to what is going on we're homelying a different country in the United States but I'm still fighting to us myself and to us my people of South Sudan and people who care about South Sudan what is wrong about us and who is going to say because the majority of the people in South Sudan are even though the government has changed and everything is different in some ways nothing has changed the the people are still living to a large extent some of them are herding cows some of them are having farms and some of them are living in small villages there hasn't been an awful lot of progress or movement towards a more modern way of life but at the same time I don't get the feeling that anybody chose to you know what I'm saying it's not like somebody said oh we're just gonna keep everything just the way it is other than but but that's what's happened things haven't changed except for one thing there's some money trickling into the government from the oil yeah I will go back to one thing very important nobody just say it's very important but I think until today I think some other country of Africa they struggle about asking themselves who's the next leader you everybody in the community are leader but I don't understand why they almost point the finger to other side and and this is a message direct to the South Sudanese if it's in diaspora if it's in South Sudan if you have living your own house your husband and your kids and and I can give example of John Bob Marley he used to sing he say if you have a problem in your house or even if you don't have but your neighborhood have a problem you don't say something tomorrow it came to you and I think South Sudanese they got to stop worrying about outside before they have to look at themselves this 64th tribe what is wrong about us and because the North say before South Sudanese they cannot be running them live or they cannot be leader to be a nation and now they what the North say it is happening yeah yeah so my concern from my brother my sister I was just say one thing the blood is enough there is no nation in this world you're gonna tell me you're gonna fight and kill your brother whatever the reason but in the end of the day it will end they have to be peace yep and forgiveness and the true peace not fake peace because since we became a nation many agreement many leader but I don't think they don't see the reason I don't mind you want to be a leader but if there's no peace and security and love and respect we're never gonna go nowhere and that brings me back again I mean 63 64 or 65 no matter how you count the tribes there are a number of smaller tribes and I've looked at the list who have a similar lifestyle they farm they do business there's tend to be stationary in one place and they've actually always work together and I believe they're called the ferriti to a fruit eat okay 26 26 tribes out of the 63 or 64 that's that's a lot of groups of people and they've learned obviously from uniting and working together one very important thing if you do that you have more strength you have more security by the way the name ferriti comes from the British the British used to call them the fruit people because they were farmers and they raised lots of fruit in their orchards mangoes and things like that sometimes I think I'd like to go to South Sudan just to go out the window or and help myself to a fresh mango off the tree but anyway the fir tit have already learned this and the fir tit as a group I believe are not just united in South Sudan but there are groups of fir tit around the world in diaspora and they've already seen the benefits of working together something like what you and I were talking about on the last show the benefits of having an organization called Africans United so that even if there are only five people from the same Malawi living in Portland they can work with the 3,000 Congolese who are here and everyone get the same benefits and it doesn't come down to oh I don't want to work with you because I'm from Malawi and I don't want to work with you because I'm Congolese it's the same thing in your country it's the same idea can diaspora communicate well enough diaspora is the community that's left and is successful in other parts of the world can the people in diaspora have an influence on what happens back in South Sudan yeah they can have a better understanding but it's still a belief they have to engage with the people back home but the other problem in my understanding in it's affecting South Sudan in general the number of the people who poor and I think that's like to the interest poor you mean in the in diaspora or back home specific home specific South Sudan yeah and and if you're hungry you're gonna find a way to eat that's right and if they come in with a good idea but it doesn't give you something but maybe somebody else will give somebody else something be better than but but again and you and I've talked about this before the people who are in diaspora are living name a country there are South Sudanese people living there Canada Australia the United States UK right France Russia all everywhere even even Japan and China's places you wouldn't expect Vietnamese okay you wouldn't expect to find after South Sudanese there but they're there because they had to go somewhere they have seen another way to live and they have raised their children in a country where there is another way to live so they've had a lot of time I mean I will say one thing most South Sudanese I've met are extremely intelligent people they're very observant and they look around and they go ah I don't like this I don't like this oh I do like that okay so what is wrong with them I mean we finally live in a world where I can talk to somebody in Bangkok every day for practically nothing right through WhatsApp or messenger and we can exchange ideas or in Toronto or in Sydney you know just name a place I can contact them I can share my did five I take this law to a higher level this year I find myself wondering why we have any problems at all when it's so easy to communicate with people just about anywhere so I think our show is going to continue we're going to have guests from other countries we're going to focus for a while on South Sudan we intend to invite people from different tribes to give more information about what it is like I know you said the solution in Rwanda was to simply not talk about the tribes but I think tribalism is so much a part of South Sudanese culture that an education about tribes and tribalism is possible before I say goodbye today I want to recommend a book that we didn't write this was written by Desmond Tutu and his daughter it is called the book of forgiving if no matter what ethnicity you are or what country you're from what your religion this is a really fine book that helps you understand what is needed for people to stop fighting and forgive each other I want to thank my guest I know we'll be back and I want to thank my audience for listening and you can always contact us through project Basia thank you