 Think Tech Alive, Civil Engagement Lives Here. About on Think Tech Alive's streaming network series, I'm your host, Winston Welch, and I'm delighted you're joining us today. Where every other week we explore a variety of topics, organizations, events, and the people who fuel them in our city, state, country, and world. As a disclaimer, any views or opinions expressed by me are strictly my own, and are not connected with any organization I might be affiliated with. Joining me today in the studio is our guest, Michael Goyloju, Jr. Grassroots Coordinator from Compassion and Choices, the nation's oldest, largest, and most active nonprofit organization committed to improving care and expanding options for end-of-life options, end of the end of life. And today we're gonna talk about some current legislation going through Hawaii and HB 2739, and issues surrounding this, which are not always clear-cut and very passionate, I think, on both sides. So with that, I would like to welcome you to the show today, Michael. No, thank you for having me. Well, you know, and thank you for coming down in your Grassroots Coordinator of this organization. So tell me about that. How did you get involved with this, and why did you get involved with it? I've always supported medical aid and dying. It's been something as far back as I can remember, and it's been a privilege to work on this. I was asked to come on a year ago in January to help them within, it was SB 1129 that went through the legislature. And so we were hopefully optimistic last year. We've seen the bill get farther this year than we've ever seen it before. So I got involved because it matters. People's choices should have control over their life, especially for the termally ill, they should have a say in how they leave this planet. And so Grassroots Coordinator is your official title there. What does that mean that you do as a Grassroots Coordinator? I work with our volunteers, our many wonderful hundreds of volunteers across the state and supporters. I also do outreach to organizations to see if we can get their support to come on board and make sure that they know when and where to testify and to come out down and engage their legislature because that seems to be the biggest hurdle whenever advocating for any issues, making sure that people understand how they can reach out to their legislators the most effectively. Yeah, I think we talked about that here a couple of weeks ago when we had the Hawaii Cannabis Alliance on here. And just spent quite a bit of time going through the rather complex steps that a bill goes through to become a law and all the areas it can be killed in or smothered in or just or advance in and how that whole process is. And I think it's rather opaque to ordinary people and even people that know about it. There's just a lot of different boxes that you got to go through to get any bill there. But the main thing you're saying is if you want your voice to be heard, you got to be aware, you got to follow the issue, you got to support the organizations that you believe in whatever the cause is and then look to them for guidance and also maybe give them some guidance too on their where they're at. Exactly. And just trying to break down the barriers between the average citizen being able to reach out to their legislators. Because unlike other states, we have some really open doors here in Hawaii how to get your testimony in, be able to reach out to your legislators. When people come to visit from the mainland, they're always surprised that there are no security gates they have to go through at the Capitol that they can just walk in and walk it to our legislators office. It's a little more difficult for our neighbor Island folks, but there's still the direct website that calling in. Unfortunately, I'm hopeful one day we will actually have video, be able to testify by video for our neighbor Island members. Well, maybe that's next after this one. So I was just looking, I've been following this issue for a while and like you as a youngster, I was to join the great Panthers which was advocating for senior citizen rights back when I was 18 or 19 because I realized I'm gonna be a senior citizen someday. I want the curb cuts there. I want social security be in place. I want Medicare and Medicaid and all of that to be there. I want our society to value all of its members in a way when I arrive, I'll be there already. So I can understand that. And also I remember, I think giving or somehow probably supporting the Hemlock Society which may be a precursor to this organization. Are you aware of them? The Hemlock, yes, we are. They were around before compassionate in choices, but we differ on some of the, when it comes to the choices. Like it is that you're gonna have many different voices working towards the same goal. That's compassionate in choices. Why we have death with dignity or society and there are other different societies out there or organizations working towards the same goal. It's been really nice to be working with them, getting to know all of them as well as the diversity of our support. It's putting together this coalition has been one of my happiest moments as it was and as a community activist and community organizer. And I'll get to that in a minute. All the different organizations that you do work with because you're right, it's not just one organization or one group doing this. This is a large number of voices working together on a sensitive and difficult topic which is around death and something that we don't really deal with well in our society at all. I wonder how many people even fill out an advanced care directive in the hospital. Yeah, and that's something else that we do. We're not just advocating for medical aid and dying. We're also making sure people know about advanced directives and they know how to let their doctors know what they want and their family members. So we engage them in making those tough decisions now so that their family doesn't have to, should something come up that empowering people to understand their choices at the end of life. And really, I think what we need to be looking at is end of life options way before we reach the end of life. Exactly. I think we have the little glimpse of that on our driver's license card when we can say, do you want to be an organ donor? But that's about it. It seems to me like kids, yeah, kids getting their driver's license. I was 14 when I got my first driver's license and there's not a sense that you're going to expire at some point in life. But just like everybody that's ever lived on this planet, you have an expiration date and we don't really think like that when we're young but it seems to me like we should have some, something beyond that. Even as kids, I remember in seventh grade, I took something called like death and dying class and they actually took us to a morgue which was very advanced I think in those days. That was, yeah, seventh grade. And I always thought this is a special experience that we have. I think we could have gone to a botany lab as well but this was just a different thing and I just realized this is an area that we don't really have a lot of experience in. And so when people are faced with these choices, they're suddenly overwhelmed by everything and you're looking at maybe your parents or your own life or even a child's life and it can all be just too much all at the last minute. So how does your organization step in with this and help with these choices in this education? Well, one of the things we do is we are always looking for tabling opportunities to go out there. Like we've done the senior fair, we do conferences but we have some really great resources on our website at compassionchoices.com, compassionchoices.org about making sure that it's starting these conversations and because there's something, no matter how diverse you are from everybody else whether it makes you different than anything, everybody else is that we all have one thing in common, we're all gonna die. And so that making sure that you can put your life in your own hands if you ever get, even if you never get a terminal illness that you know that you can have say in how you are treated medically should anything arise. And I think that's one thing about your organization is it just doesn't focus on aid and dying. This is the whole range of things so you can go there and find an advanced care directive or just even documents on how to begin the conversation with your loved ones or even what to think about. Yeah, it's about having another conversation and that's the one thing that we wanna make sure everybody knows is that medical aid and dying isn't for everybody and that's why it's a choice but there's also a lot of other choices out there that are making sure that your will and your wishes are done because we were talking about your life and your medical care. They could still be making those choices and decisions for you but you. Nobody should be making those choices for you but you. Okay, and so your organization which is compassionandchoices.org we can find a whole range of materials on there. Exactly. So this bill that's coming out, I just saw on the advertiser or the star advertisers or newspaper that the medical aid and dying bill heads for the full Senate vote here. So this was Friday's paper and it looks like it looks like this has cleared its last major hurdle at the state legislature paving away for the full vote by the Senate. So the House Judiciary Committee voted four to one to advance this bill and now it goes on to the full Senate. Then what happens after that? Then as long as the Senate hears it before 10 days before the end of session the governor then has 10 days to sign, veto or allow to come law without a signature. So we are hopefully optimistic that the bill will be getting noticed soon that the Senate will be going to our full vote and that's when they all get to debate it. If they have anything they want to say on the issue or not. It's open to the public. If you want to come down and support us we sure would like to have everybody down there with us when the bill comes up. But we have a Facebook page and we'll put notices there. But yeah, so this is the similar bill that we talked about SB 1129 passed the Senate 22 to three last session. So we're hopefully optimistic that we will pass this last hurdle and the governor will then esteem to sign it into law. Well, if it passed last session then 23 to two. 22 to three. 22 to three. So it passed and then what happened? It went over to the House and there were some concerns in the House and the Health Committee and that's where it got deferred. And so that's why between last session and now we've had conversations. We kept the conversation alive by doing the senior fair and the one thing that we heard loud and clear well even at the senior fair is that people were like why didn't it pass? And we're like, we don't know. There are many different things that caused it not to pass last session and we're just really grateful that it's gotten so far. This is as far as any medical aid and dying bill has ever gotten. And so we can see the finish line but we take no vote for granted. We take, and we encourage people to reach out to their senators and let them know. And let them know that they support it and why? Because it's that kind of interactive interpersonal communication that we have that really has helped move this bill forward. And we pull it 70 to 80% support depending on which polling you're looking at. And has this already passed the House then? Yes, it's done the full House. We had a five and a half, was it five and a half? Five and a half, eight, almost six hour hearing in the House. There's a joint committee hearing and so everybody and then it passed the House, I'm gonna say 33 to 18. So a little bit more contentious in the House. And then when this, so when is this actually going to come up? We don't know exactly. We don't know, we're waiting for the report to be issued from the committee. They voted on Friday so the report can hit any day now and after the report hits the floor, it has to sit there on the floor for 48 hours before they can do a vote and that's the law. So it could come up anytime even this week. Okay, and then after that it goes to the governor. It goes directly to the governor and he has 10 days to sign veto or let become law without a signature. And he's indicated that he would sign this. He has indicated, he's given us every indication that he would sign it by the fact that he submitted testimony in support of it and he has made sure that a member of his staff has been at every hearing to let them know. Okay, and so what we're talking about is this bill taking effect for mentally competent residents who are at least 18 years old have been given six months or less to live, would be eligible under the bill to request lethal medication to choose under their own lives. Two healthcare providers would need to confirm the patient's diagnosis, prognosis, competence, and that the request is voluntary. Before any medication is prescribed, the patient would need to receive mandatory counseling from a psychiatrist, psychologist, or clinical social worker. We're talking today with Michael Goilaouf from Compassion and Choices. We're gonna take a short break here. My name is Winston Welch and this is out and about on Think Tech Live Streaming Network series. We'll be back in a moment. This is what happens when he gets to go in. He's a service dog. Well, I could get a vest too. You're not even a service dog. He's trained to assist his owner. Well, I can do whatever he can do. Wow, did he just open the door? Yep. Oh, I can't do that. I can't do that either. He's trained for over two years to become a service dog. Man, I wish I could be a service dog. Aloha. I'm Marsha Joyner, inviting you to come visit with us on Cannabis Chronicles, a 10,000 year odyssey where we explore and examine the plant that the muse has given us and stay with us as we explore all of the facets of this planet on Wednesdays at noon. Please join us. Aloha. Since they did a lot of the state to make their mind. Hey, well, we're back. We're live. I'm Winston Welch. This is out and about on Think Tech Live streaming network series. We're talking with my go-go lawyer, Jr. Grasswood's coordinator from Compassion and Choices. And it's legislation that's currently working its way through the legislature on end-of-life issues. This bill is Senate bill. House bill 2739. I'm sorry, House bill 2739. But it is in the Senate now. Okay, so how does that read when it's in the Senate? It's still House bill. It's so-called House bill. Because that's the vehicle. So you have Senate bills, SB and House bills, HB, and they keep that number through their entire process no matter which chamber they're in. Okay, and I can see this is a sensitive issue because we're talking about people's lives ending and for the first time in, well, legally in our history, the option to be able to decide the timing of your own departure on your own terms if you have a terminal illness. Exactly. Now what other states and countries have laws like this? Oregon's the one that's headed the longest. We're going on 20 years there. California passed it a year ago. So they just had their one year anniversary this past October. And then you have Colorado, Washington, D.C. And I think, Washington, maybe? Washington State, yes. Washington State, yes. So it's just a few states at this point. What other nations have exact issues with this, are you aware? Holland, and there's some other ones that do have it. They have enacted this. Maybe Switzerland or something like that, yeah. Elton does too, if I'm not mistaken, but so we're at the vanguard of this right now. And- Well, Oregon was the vanguard of this, so they paved the way and the one thing that we want to make sure everybody knows that it's never been abused or misused in Oregon. There's been no cases of anybody ever being coerced into using, accessing medical aid and dying in Oregon over the 20 years. And so this argument from our opposition saying it's a slippery slope, that A, it's not true, and B, it's just there's nothing to back up their claims on that. So tell us about Oregon maybe, since we have the most out on that, you probably can reference out the most. What numbers of people are we looking at? I think Oregon probably has, I'm guessing, about two million people, or maybe twice the population of Hawaii. So we can just figure out the math from there. Let's just say two to make the math easy, or maybe three, because we probably have a one and a half million in the state. How many people a year are actually applying for this? And what's the process? Is our bill similar to theirs? Our bill actually has more safeguards than theirs, because they don't have a requirement for, but the meeting with the psychologist or psychiatrist and making sure that, and the reason that's in there is to make sure that people aren't going that after getting a diagnosis and because they're depressed. Because when you get a terminal illness diagnosis, that can cause depression, and we understand that. And so there's that safeguard there. But for the rest of it, our bill's basically very much mirroring each other. And so with that extra step, we believe that this bill, it will be one of the, that it is the one of the most protective ones of people's rights as well as safeguards to ensure that it's not being misused. Now, how many people a year in Oregon are actually, I guess, requesting the medicine in advance? Okay, if I don't hold me to these numbers, if I remember correctly, it's around 250 people a year. And of those that request it, only 10% actually, after getting the prescription, actually fill out the prescription, get the prescription filled, of that, where you're looking at even a lesser number of people that actually go through with it. Because it's more of a, what's the right word? Safeguard are, they feel that they now have their life in their own hands. So it's, even to know it's there, is a comfort for somebody who's been diagnosed. And again, that you have to be terminally ill, mentally confident, above the 18 years of age, and no sign of depression, and they're depressed. Well, I would imagine that people are a little bit depressed if they get a terminal diagnosis. That part actually seems a little bit silly to me, because if you're there, you might be depressed, but let's say, okay, you got that safeguard built in, and you make it through everything. But I also, so this gives people a measure of control at the end where they're really not a lot of control that they're looking at, you know. I guess fundamentally what it comes down to. And the option at least to exercise that, even though 90% or maybe 85, something like that don't. Yeah, so, and, because when you have a terminal illness, and they're everybody's like, oh, palliative care, hospice that they're able to, but requiring somebody to sit there without this law, requiring somebody with a terminal illness that's living through pain day in and day out, to that you'd be requiring them to live through that pain, because there's only so much palliative care can do to hand double the pain. And then it comes also, someone's deciding how much they can take by pain or dignity when they lose the ability to control their bowels as we had, and so we're heading into, again, it's a personal choice. There's nothing in here that requires a doctor to participate, nothing requires a terminal ill patient to do it, and again, it's the terminal ill patient's decision. So if you're a doctor, you can say, I really don't want to be involved in this. Like abortion, you have doctors that perform them and you have doctors that do not, and so there's nothing in this bill that requires a doctor to participate. So there's a lot of people that have testified for and against this bill. It seems, it's interesting because the Office of the Governor supported it, Department of Health, the Attorney General, the American Psychological Association, even the Longshoremen's Union, which is interesting, the, it looks like AFL-CIO, a lot of the Democratic caucus and a lot of others in here, the LGBT caucus, the Kapuna caucus of the Democratic Party, Death with Dignity, Capacity and Choices, Francis Civil Rights, the Hawaii Martin Luther King Junior Coalition, it's a very interesting mix of choices. On the other side, you have, you know, I think what you typical St. Francis and the White Catholic Conference, you have the Disability Rights Education and Defense Fund Association of People with Disabilities, which I can understand because we've had some history in the past, we go back to the Nazis and they said, okay, people with disabilities, that's it. So how are we addressing this and making sure that that's not something that's included in this or wouldn't even be considered and how do we protect those people? Oh, but a disability is not a terminal illness and so just because you have a disability doesn't mean you cannot access this a lot. The only thing you have is, and I've had these gut-wrenching discussions in heart-wrenching because they've been fed lies, which it is not even, you can have differences of opinions, but you can have your own facts. There is nothing in the bill that would allow somebody with a disability to even ask their doctor for access to medical aid. Unless they had a terminal illness. You have to have the, yeah, anybody with a terminal illness, six months or less to live, then can, if you have a disability or not, but just because you have a disability, you cannot access the medical aid night. And it's been one of my biggest frustrations is that they would be willing to lie to their supporters to get their support on it, to go against this. And I'm like, if you can have a difference opinion for whatever reasons, and we see that there's some religious groups in there that are against it, but we also have religious groups on our side that support it. That's what I was going to say, is there's probably religious groups that have ended up on both sides of this discussion. So maybe I think is what happens a lot in our societies today as you have how did Kelly and Conway put alternative facts or something along that. So one of the things that they're worried about is elder abuse that you're gonna force grandma to die because you're gonna inherit her money. And so you're gonna sign here, grandma. I find it laughable. Actually, I almost find it disgusting that that's what they go to. And I'm like, what kind of family are they coming from where they would even think of that? Just because you're old doesn't mean you have eternal illness, therefore you can't access it. And that we should be, and they keep on saying, oh, we're caring about the elders, but I find it funny that we never see them at the Capitol when we actually have bills up before that would be protecting, making sure there is an elder abuse that we have in over the years. Our opposition never seems to be there at those hearings. And when they're talking about disabilities, it's protecting those with the disabled community. They're not at the hearings that we actually, for like HB 1489, that would actually ensure non-discrimination against the disabled community. So these are probably, and you think there are enough safeguards in there. You got a couple doctors coming in, social workers. I'm sure they pull the person aside as, apart from their family who are whoever's in the will. I noticed in the documents themselves, it says at least one of these people signing this, the witness cannot be related to you, cannot be a member of your will, cannot be a member of the healthcare facility. So there's a lot of safeguards built into this. So it's, but I want to acknowledge that these people have a real fear of this. And so maybe as time goes by and they see results that are, the fears are not coming to play. I understand their idea that life should be lived to the very last second, but given our modern technology and the way that we're able to prolong lives in ways that we simply didn't have 10 years ago, 200 years ago, that this is something that's on the other spectrum and where we're giving people a right to choose whether or not, how they want to control the end of their lives. And we're not talking huge numbers of people, but a very passionate topic here. So what do you think, and we're not talking of any problem with palliative care, your organization completely sports palliative care, hospice, and you want to see people have the best outcomes at the end of their lives. And then, yeah, that they choose what they've made those decisions for themselves. It's not their family making it for them. It's not their doctor making it for them. Then it's the terminally ill patient being able to choose what's best for them. And everybody else as well, because that's what advanced directors are there for, is to making sure that you have control of your life at the end of life, and that there are a lot of options out there. How if you want to do hospice, if you, DNR, do not resuscitate orders. People think that's all there is, that there's actually, you can actually say how much medical care you're willing, you want, should you be in an accident. So are we looking at death tourism coming to Hawaii? No, you have to be a resident of Hawaii. There is no death tourism when it comes to any of the medical aid and dyings in the country, because you have to be a resident. And so when people, one of the arguments was, oh, you don't have to make it law here, they can go to Oregon to take advantage of it. And I'm like... Oregon probably has a similar law. They do have a similar law. And when somebody's terminally ill, telling them they have to travel 3,000 miles away from their family to access medical aid and dyings, there's no compassion in that at all. And it's, you know, I think about Logan's run, right? There's, we're not going to have, when people turn 30 years old, their little umber starts flashing and they get to go get their pill. Nope, because there's nothing about age it has to do solely with terminal illness. And so we're respecting as much as possible, the individual as he or she approaches the end of his or her life and just making full use of those options. And so this house bill, which is now house bill... 2739. 2739 will be popping up sometime. We can go to your website, compassionandchoices.org for more information or your Facebook page. What would that be? compassionandchoices.org. That they'll give you the, when the comes up for the hearing, not the hearing, I'm sorry. The third reading, which is the last final vote in the Senate, we will put the notice out there. And then once it becomes law, we can look at access. And help people know that how to gain access and use it, because it will not go into effect until should the Senate pass it in the governor's time into January 1st, 2019. Okay, and I think it's important for all of us, no matter who we are to make sure that our affairs are up to date. Make sure that your wishes are known with your family members, regardless of what those wishes are. There's no agenda here. It's just making sure that you have control of what you want. So make sure you have your documents out there. Talk with your family. Talk with your doctor. Talk with these great organizations out there that are on all sides of the issue, so that you can be the most informed person of your life, because it's your show, you're the director, producer, writer and star. So we really appreciate you coming here today, Michael. Michael, thank you for having me. We will come back again another time and see if this passes how we might implement that and talk about other things, about maybe some of the documents and what we might do to be responsible. Oh, totally, we'll definitely be more, either myself or someone else from the organization will be more than happy to come back to make sure people understand access. Okay, well, thank you so much. So unfortunately, as always, it goes very fast. We are out of time and I'm gonna have to wrap it up here. I am Winston Welch, this is out and about Think Tech Live streaming network series and today I have been talking with Michael Goloyu Jr., grassroots coordinator from Compassion and Choices, the nation's oldest, largest and most active nonprofit organization committing to improving care and expanding options for the end of life. Thank you so much and we'll see you here next time. Aloha.