 Hello and welcome to the Arts Link Assembly. This is week three of our five week assembly, all online this year. The Arts Link Assembly is our annual meeting of artists and arts organizations coming together to explore and advocate for the role that art and artists play in both building and maintaining a civil society. This week we are very fortunate to be joined by a very good friend and artist, choreographer, artistic director, Foster Linu Kula. Foster runs the Studios Cabaco in Kisan Gani in the Democratic Republic of the Congo out in the east of the country. And this year he worked with a group of artists across the whole continent to look at their lives and the impact on their creative practice through this global health crisis. So, Foster will talk to some of the artists featured in the film and explore many of the issues. And I'm looking forward to hearing him also tomorrow in conversation with Peter Sellers. So, Foster, are you there? Yeah. Ah, that's great. You know, that's the magic of life. So, hello, Simon. And thank you for having us here. And it's an honor to be on this panel this afternoon and to have joining us Ambrose Joshua from Lagos. Hey Ambrose, your sound is off. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yes. So, there's also Doreen Moka from Lubumbashi in the South Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. Hi, Doreen. Hey, Doreen. Hi. And there's Samuel Jaffet from Dar es Salaam in Tanzania. Hi, everyone. And we're hoping to also have Andesua James from Cape Town, South Africa, but she hasn't joined yet. We hope she'll join us later on. So, yes, you know, when this project came about in April, May this year, it was really in the middle of the first wave of the pandemic. And I could not imagine that would be meeting late October in the middle of a new wave, especially when you're in Europe or in North America. So I was imagining that it would be just for a short period of time. And then we'd go back to our normal lives, whatever that means. But it seems that this situation is here to stay. So, Ambrose, how is it, how is the situation right now in Lagos? Thankfully, right now, as we speak, the situation in Lagos is a lot better than it was five days ago. When the situation in Lagos gave us, the government had to come in and they pronounced the coffee. So that was one of the things that they used to actually subsidize the situation. So a coffee was announced three days ago. So the coffee was between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m. So since then, the situation kind of like, yeah, yeah, reduce. So we just have one or two cases of brutality here and there. Despite the fact that we've been protesting against it, but we still have some just rare cases around. We still have cases of the forcemen still trying to brutalize young boys and girls. But the situation is a lot better. I think what is going on right now is the judiciary aspect of everything. The officers that are supposed to be brought to books have been charged to courts. We have youth representatives standing in for the youth community in the country. So there was an update yesterday from a popular musician, his name is Fawze, posted it on his Instagram. So we got a good update on how the meeting went. Some cases were attended to, some were adjourned. But right now as we speak, the situation in Lagos is calmer. Everybody's indoor. We're trying to hide our head. I know it's fine. It's fine. It's getting better actually. So Kondiswa just also joined us. Thank you finally. So thanks for joining. How are you? You're... Oh, good. Thank you. It's good to have you. So we're all here. So this is a miracle because internet is not always that smooth on the continent. And in the same way I would say, putting together this project, these letters from the continent was a miracle because it was in the middle of the pandemic and we were all a bit desperate and depressed. We didn't know what to do until Virginie who co-directs the Studio Cabaco had this idea that, well, maybe we should just reach out and ask many of the younger artists on the continent how they are doing and just that's how the project started. And then we had to put everything together to talk to you, to get videos from you and to edit which for me, I view it as a miracle in the same way being together this afternoon is like a little miracle. So how is the situation? In Cape Town? I would say the situation in Cape Town is different to when we're in quarantine, let me say, when we were in the moment of making the letters. So I mean, we're in November now, we were doing this project August. And besides- May June. May June, my goodness, look at that. This is a long time ago. And it was, I mean, the global situation was fraught in a particular way and that means it affected us in a particular way but things felt a bit more repressive, right? And because we were on like level four and now things are a lot more chilled but if anything, what it's shown us is that the structural stuff which has always been there is still there. And if anything, the kind of working class, like working class group of people have kind of fallen through into unemployment. If I'm even thinking about my streets where I live which is a fairly kind of like cosmopolitan eclectic mix of like lots of different people from the continent. And there's a lot of homelessness in my streets and after lockdown, I would say it's doubled and there's a lot of drug use on my street. And I would say it's doubled. So you can just feel the strains on the economy, the things that did fall through but the things that were always there, you know? So the more things change, the more they stay the same, I'd say. So for both you, Kondiswa and Rose, would you say that the COVID-19 crisis is behind you from where you are? Because as we're talking from in Europe, it's really barking full force and not only in terms of its economic consequences but also as a real public health issue. How is it there? Sorry, I don't know if I must speak or Ambrose but I can speak for now quick. So there is a feeling but also it's showing in the stats that people are showing up with symptoms more and more. So we had kind of flattened, I don't know if people remember that whole thing of flattening the curve. So it had flattened for September, October and then in the last couple of weeks it started picking up again. So people who are working in the hospitals are reporting that there's some mild cases. But there is a feeling like with the government that that doesn't necessarily mean that we will be taken back to the original restrictions and that for the most part, I think that there is the hope that people will keep with the new kind of socialization about washing hands and masking, et cetera. There's still a lot of stigma around it, especially in more rural areas which is where my family is from, which is where I'm from. So in some places it's not even, I would say it's still even in its first stages, especially as a knowledge product that has to pass through a society. Joe. Ambrose? Yeah, for me it's crazy. It's crazy in the sense that I have a lot of reservations about what's really happening in Lagos or in Nigeria or in my immediate environment. In the sense, in the heat of COVID-19 that started from April, May, April to June, yet the government kept on announcing cases of coronavirus and all. And me as an activist, as an individual, also looking at my immediate environment, looking at what we're actually going on. The numbers don't match in the sense that it kind of seems like a new virus is in human form. It's even more dangerous than the actual COVID-19. Ambrose, Joe. Now, if I look at the COVID-19, I would say the number of the government doesn't actually match the number of the government. If I look at the first lady. Sorry, can't hear me. Yeah, you're really breaking up. So it was very difficult to hear you. I don't know if it would help to deactivate your video and just this way we can have at least better sound. We lost you. Dorin, how is the situation in Lubumbashi? Because to pick from what Ambrose was saying, I have this feeling that in many of our countries on the continent, there is a big problem with trusting what authorities, the public authorities are saying. And so how is it in Lubumbashi now? Yeah, I think the coronavirus itself, the coronavirus situation is more cognitive and seems to be under control, even if we don't trust what the government says. So as you say, there is a trust crisis between the government and people and the population. But at the same time, even before, there was not a lot of victim from the coronavirus. But there is consequences of that health crisis. Because money doesn't circulate. People don't have money. People are losing their jobs. So there is a consequences of that. And you can feel it in the city. And another aspect is the security. There is a lot of cases of security, protests. And even this morning, the government decided to start controlling the car paper. And as you know, a lot of buses don't have papers to work. So that means for the next four weeks, they will not work. So you already start the tension between drivers and police. Yeah, so there is a lot of tension. Money doesn't circulate. So I think for me, that is the virus we need to fix now. And Samuel, quickly, how is it in Dar es Salaam? You just have you had the elections or is it this weekend? Your sound is off. Your sound is off. Please unmute. So basically, we are in the week of the election. I mean, the big election just happened yesterday. And we had some great things. Like the internet was shut down. So even today, I'm wondering why is it possible to go through Zoom? Because no more WhatsApp, we cannot access anything. But regarding the COVID-19, I mean, we had some cases late, I mean, late in March. And then we until June. And then the government, I mean, the president say that Corona, like we just have to learn how to live with it because it's going to stay for a longer period. So then we didn't have any restrictions around. And we had some schools like we are closed, but some other normal activities, everything was going on. But it's just in the art sector, like nothing is real happening. It's like most like we are like we have mixed people, like mixed audience. And we like we have to organize different gatherings and events, but we need like a lot of people like mixed audience, you know. And currently, like it's really hard to do so, I mean, to organize such an event. But regarding the Corona, I mean, currently, like we are just free, like we are living normal life as it means. Does it mean is it the government that's preventing the art sector from operating? I mean, it's because of the audience, because some people, I mean, are currently like still like, OK, so there's some festivals and activities which have been organized in the last month, but there is no so much. I mean, the turn up of the audience is not really a lot. Because people are still aflades in some ways. And and when the president says actually, Corona is not really here, or if it is, then we learn to live with it. Do people trust? I mean, people like it went silent for like almost a week. Like people are just like because in the I mean, before the announcement, I mean, we had almost like eight, almost four hundred people, like the four hundred cases of COVID-19. And then one week after the president said, like, it's not there because it seems like he blocked the I mean, the announcements of the cases every week because we had like regular like announcements about the cases. Like today's people are this much. Today, people are this much. So then he blocked those like announcements. And then after one week later, he just came with a message. There's no colonel. So, yeah, I'm rose you back. It's good to have you back. You were you were talking about, you know, so we were talking about the trust in what the government say. Your microphone is muted. Your microphone is muted. OK, now you're now you're good. And I mean, yes, I was just trying to explain how human viruses in human form are actually more dangerous than the actual virus. So the virus in human form. It's from April, May, June, September, but we are still set in number yet. Can I say just maybe if they shoot off the video. Ambrose, sorry, but we really can't hear you. I don't know if you can just keep the sound and switch up the video. Just try that. Hello, Ambrose. Kondis, would you like to say something on this trust thing? Yeah, so I think it's, for me, it's a general problem. And I think it was a problem even at the first instances of the corona. And even now, I mean, so this thing of fake news, oftentimes we're being told, well, we're feeling like we're going to move back to level three. But then I see on the news this morning that the government is saying, OK, we're definitely not going to move into level three. But then again, where is this news coming from, right? Like what's reliable? What's not? I actually haven't heard an announcement from the president in like a month. So and during at the height of the of the infections, he was coming on every couple of weeks, trying to assuage the people. But also you could tell it's controlling tactics. So I think this is also why we can't really trust the information, why it seems like because it's released at particular times, right? And it seems like it comes with agendas. So not really being able to, oh, I see Ambrose is back. I do I am really interested to hear about their context. So this is also what you know. And so just quickly, how is that? How is the artistic scene doing in Cape Town right now? So things are opening up slowly. Events spaces. So I I've been primarily now working in the theater. And I would say from about two, two and a half months ago, I was already putting up work, but at like a fringe theater in Cape Town, which is they've got firstly mad protocols and the the people who run the venue. Like they have to make sure that to even get that clearance. They have to make sure that not only they're doing their part, but that we're being socialized to do our part, right? Like so as artists and then as audiences. But now I would say from like about two weeks ago, things have just been opening up gradually and especially in terms of artists for events spaces and that there's some funding opportunities, things like that. Again, that being said, it's just not nearly enough, is it? And for the impact that the that the virus has actually had. And then the already preexisting issues about artists and artists and finding space and finding work and freelancing and all these things and our rights and whatnot. So already these are these are issues that already are a thing, but that are just being like highlighted, I think. So even though maybe I'm finding a way to move, I know that I was having a conversation with a friend who was saying, oh, I'm so glad that you can find work because I still haven't been able to find work since February. Yeah. Yeah. So really depending on and I don't know who gets lucky. I don't know who gets who gets chosen, who hears the call. The government is sending out lots of proposals. I don't know who I mean, sorry, applications. I don't know who's getting it. And even when people do get it, it's like some of this money is going to come through next year and it just doesn't make sense. So I feel like we're like as cultural because we're in very difficult positions like our positions are precarious in the first instance. But then we're not what's it called? We're not essential. You know, they say we're here to beautify. So it becomes even more, it's even more stressful, you know, and I can't imagine how people are making, people aren't, people aren't making ends meet. People are making deals with their landlords, with their families, with their friends, with their neighbors, with their, yeah. And Rosa, are you back? Yes, yes, yes, yes, I'm back. OK, so for now. Yeah, this sounds better. OK. So I was trying to explain how the situation was in the heat of COVID and how it is now after COVID. For me, I think COVID has actually ended, even though they still tell us to observe the necessary precautions. You know, like even the heat of COVID-19, we still have children, older women and men still worried about the hunger rates, no job, no good hospital care. They keep telling us we have a lot of COVID, thousands of numbers, you know, but it's kept on the screen every day. But we don't actually see them at the point, at the point, people in the streets kind of like feel like, OK, yeah, this sickness is not for us, it is for the rich people. You know, because they, on the media, we have, we have names of cases, names of the elites, names of politicians have actually come up to tell us they have the virus, you know, some, some we say is probably the, is for the media, PR, is for the, you know, but for what is the immediate environment, we don't actually see anybody in the group. You don't actually observe the social distance, it's like people don't really want to know, but we don't do it because women have to actually observe the precautions like to wear the mask, to wash our hands. When we have two sides in Lagos, we have on the island, like a place for the end, when you go there, you seem like, oh, people are actually staying indoors, they're actually quarantining and all, but when it comes to the other side, we have boss lads in the street. We still have Nigerians, Ligoshans, take bossing, 60 things, four, four in the city, or three, like actually packed in major areas in the country, you know, especially in the state Lagos, when you come to the lower parts of the state, you know, so they've been, over the years, there have been cries for better system in the country, cries to have a better government, to have better police reforms, you know, yet they try to cage us with the COVID situation, whereas be the poor, people on the street, they actually need to go out there and make ends meet, you know, some have come out to look like they are violating the precaution rules and all, but they actually have to go for this thing, they actually need to feed. You have older men in my area actually telling us there is no corona, when they look at us, dress up with our nose marks on, with our hand glues on with our sanitizer, they actually look at us and they try to mock us in the sense that, oh, why are you guys listening to the government? They don't know they are lying to you guys, you know, but we have access and because, you know, we are like the face of the people who try to do this thing, so people will actually believe that, oh, yes, maybe there is COVID or not, you know, but we don't actually see these cases. Now, we are facing the police brutality issue, which has been on for a long time for like a decade right now. The government keep on promising us for a better reform, for a solution to it. But right now, everything in the open seems like the government that actually, the course of what we have right now, like we have evident cases, proves to actually show that so-so government official has done this, has done that to the people that they promised to keep, that they promised safety, but this time around, they turned out the other ones who actually caused more deaths. Right now, it's like the police brutality, the police force has actually caused more death cases than actually the COVID cases. You know, the ones we only have is what the tellers, the numbers, what the tellers are immediately, number of COVID cases is so-so thousand, but what we can actually see is that evidence in our eyes are actually the death cases caused by the police brutality. And now, this whole protest started as police brutality, but long ago, it kind of like seemed like we're actually talking about every problem in the country. Of the police brutality, we now want in better, better hospitals. We want our doctors, our nurses, our policemen. We want our police force to be paid properly. We want the Senate to be paid what they are supposed to be paid, and not just keep on extorting the people. So, I think this thing kind of like threatened the government, and that's why they took that drastic, drastic step. Right now, the situation is calmer. So, my question to you all is that, if, you know, how do you keep going? You know, in the middle of all this, Samira, you know, how do you keep going? Where do you find the energy to continue? I mean, on my side, I mean, I'm really grateful. I mean, I'm getting some things that keeps myself motivated in order to keep going through this situation. And it's also like the situation in Tanzania is different from a lot of other countries. So, it's also like brings me another energy. Like, as we are not in a lockdown, so I'm kind of like free also to go out and get like different inspirations or to go to studio and practice or research. So, for me, like a really great, like I am this, like I'm still somehow like continuing like walking and continuing like finding different things to get myself moving and going. So... Duhin. Yeah, I think in my case, when the quarantine starts, I decided to make a break, actually. And my last production in Lombashi was at the beginning of February. And then I decided to not work until March. And I think somehow the conversation that we talked about the movie reactivates something in myself. Because I decided to stop. And then when I start to feel depressed, I decide to start writing without knowing what I'm gonna do with that. And I think when we start that conversation about the movie, it was like, yeah, I have to do something. I have to stop doing things. And maybe it's not performance or online performance, but it's maybe just writing and thinking and making things. And in the next month after April, I start to be involved in different movie projects because I think it was a good response for me to that situation, but also because I knew that I needed to have a space of creativity, of innovation, of expression. I needed to use my voice to be a voice and be heard. But also something that I really needed during that time is to have someone to talk with. And to talk with artists, to talk with friends, to talk to my brother and sister, even if there is a distance somehow. But I needed to talk to people and to be connected, to be part of something. And for me, that is something I felt when I get involved in that movie as well, that you fear that you're part of something, you're building something with other people. And that was very helpful. And I think somehow in different projects that I have been involved after that, I was looking for that to be heard, to be connected. And yeah, I think, and that's actually become a strategy for me to survive and to go through what is happening now. Yes, Suha. Oh, so that's really lovely, because it feels just a lot of what you say just resonates with me. I feel like currently, I'm not sure how to move or how to make it work. But that's, I'm on a quest and sometimes finding bits of collectives or projects or something that makes it make sense. But the thing that's most difficult about it, I feel is that because there's less, there's less holding, let me call it holding, but maybe I mean, it's about financial support, but it's about structural support, about institutional support, in particular ways that's just, firstly, it's the end of the year, right? So people can't start things right now. But then also what happened happened, so people are busy with other stuff, people are busy trying to save their own companies, et cetera. So that thing, that's the community that's been there, that is there. I don't know, I feel it's likely, I don't know, it feels more disparate somehow and that I have to work harder to find and to make those connections, but that when I do, there is a sense of purpose and a sense of grounding. But it's quite difficult, especially because I've been kind of thinking or trying to conceptualize of myself as a kind of worker, working like, so both okay, so I can feed myself, but then also working for collective liberation or resistance or whatever we call it. And I just, I feel strange, I don't know how to gauge people's comfortability with whether they still feel comfortable moving in similar ways to how we moved. So even if I get on stage, I'm working with a group of 10 people, this is actually happening right now, but and we're choreographing and I don't know if you're all comfortable touching each other, right? And then when we're talking about like ethics of collective responsibility and like collectively making stuff and being together, like these things that have shifted, which have shifted, like I'm finding it quite difficult and that it helps, I keep making because there are people around me who also have this impulse to just keep making and we help each other make sense of it, even when sometimes it really feels there's no, there's not enough holding, yeah. So you see, for me, doing this project and getting in touch with all of you, really I would say that it's lifted me up when I was feeling really low and alone. As you just said, it was about like being part of something, being part of a larger circle and we're isolated and it's happened that I was in Europe then, like, okay, what is going on and just knowing that you were there and doing what you were doing, it gave me energy and it gave me hope for myself as well. And I just came back like 12 days ago from the Congo where we spent six weeks and for the first time since March, I performed and I performed in my ancestral village, I went to the village, it's a village of 300 people and it's like I'd not been in front of an audience since March and then there were all these people and suddenly it felt like it was possible to need a normal performance in life where you bring people together, you spend time together. Now I'm back in Europe and here things are shutting down again, everything is being called off. So like until the end of the year, everything has been called off. So I find it very ironical that for many years the economic model on which we developed our work was that we'd create work on the African continent and then we'd rely on touring in Europe or in North America to be able to survive, to be able to make it economically viable, we had to come over here. Now that this, like coming here is impossible for now and it might be for a long time, but still on the continent, it's still possible to need a normal life. Does that cross your mind that this could be an opportunity for us to develop platforms on the continent and to try and figure out how to make it viable there? And maybe then all the people who are stuck in Europe or America, they all come and we just make it like the only place where it's possible to need is in Africa. I don't know what's your take on that? Anyone could jump in and Rose. True, like I totally understand but it seemed like the situation was actually kind of really different, actually so distanced from the European region to also in Africa. So for all that kind of like give me a better insight, a better understanding to what's time and space actually really means, what does it really mean? Because now COVID opened our eyes, COVID actually locked everybody in their rooms, in their personal spaces at the same time. Then it gave us this idea like really, what's the difference between us? What is the essence of space? What is the essence of time? Because right now, I can't really be in a Zoom meeting with first team, with Doreen, with, you know, you know what I'm saying? So we kind of like saw it as an opportunity to explore. Now let's assume the whole world is in a lockdown for the next 20 years. How are we going to actually survive in connection with other people around the world, not just in our own immediate environment, which is where Shusha Media came into, into a major role. Let's look at letters on the continent. It was made possible via Shusha Media. We were able to bring all of us together to do these projects with you. So that kind of like gave me this better insight on, okay, I think Shusha Media is actually the future of technology. If we as Africans, you can actually capitalise on this technology, which is Shusha Media, into our own advantage, how we can actually use this tool to be in same-shoulder level with the rest of the world. You know what I mean, like, I kind of... I've been thinking about a lot about the idea of resiliency, how to be resilient. And so I turned to like agricultural practices and where you have whole movement worldwide talking about locality, being as local as you can. And so I'm just wondering if this crisis is not an opportunity for us as artists to finally begin to look inwards and to look for possibilities as local as possible and above all, how do we make these local spaces economically viable for what we're doing? And therefore, if we connect that with what Ambrose you're talking about, going out stops being like the only way to survive. It becomes like this bonus that expands our horizons, but we've developed locally ways of taking care of ourselves. Of course, it might mean that we need to rethink how we approach the economy of what we're doing. We need to rethink the idea of money and production, money that's needed to put all these things together. But yeah, how is it for you somewhere? Your sound is muted. Your sound is muted somewhere. Okay, now you're on. Yeah, now you're on. So on my side, it has been quite a challenging time because for instance, I had some plans this year like I was planning to travel around and when everything shut down, then it was a really big challenge for me in the sense of thinking on, for instance, how can I make, for instance, my living just based in Tanzania, for instance, apart from just like depending on, I mean, outwards, like festivals outside of Tanzania and things outside of Tanzania, like how can I make myself really ground, like really stable just here in Tanzania, just being in Tanzania. So it also gave me also a lot of new ways of thinking in the ways that I started thinking also like connecting more with local people and on how also I can use my art is also as a way of living as part of my community. Not only like making my performances for international audiences, but also how can I make my work, I mean, based on like my local community. And I'm really grateful that there is a project coming up which is like, it's a dance for the community. Like I go and we perform in public spaces here in Dalesalam and it's a way also to bring the people together and also to, for us artists to be recognized by the local community, you know? So this is really like what has been going on on my side. And, yes. Andeswa. So like, I think maybe a lot of us have been trying to think about this continent thing, how to look in again, right? Maybe since Gaddafi, if we're allowed to say that. But that, so of course the problem of the economy, but I think there's an issue of trust, okay? And of trusts in the continent and that there is an opportunity, but I think for me more than an opportunity to, for us to be able to travel work and for us to create like new artist network or to strengthen artist network is like for us to build a real kind of continental solidarity. And that's actually what the work is. And it's, oh, I even try to think. So okay, a couple of weeks ago, our, one of our minister guys, Paul Mashaba, South African, okay. So we all know South Africa has got this problem of xenophobia. Lord knows, but South Africa has this problem. This guy who is in parliament, this guy, he's an MP and he says on the news like two local newspapers that, yes, okay, South Africans must be prioritized, nama, nama, nama, things about eagles, the same restrict, the same restrict that always comes out of people and always more frightening when it comes out of people in power, right? And the last time it came out of somebody's mouth, it came out of the case in King, right? And then there was necklacing and burning and all of this stuff. So it's like for me, we have to begin there. Like how do, how, when seeds of mistrust are being sown by these like puppet government people that we don't even understand. So there's barely an opportunity for us to actually get to know each other. And like, I'm trying to think how do, how, even when we're doing this thing and curating these artists kind of networks, like how, yeah, how we integrate the work of solidarity building on the continent into that. And I know that it's part of, I do know that it's part of it, of course, but it almost feels to me like, because there is, there are people who travel on this continent. There are, okay, just in the same way that there are people who travel to Europe and not all of us do. And some people are gonna start and then like COVID screwed everything up. But even before then, there was always a conversation. And I've heard that there's always a conversation when people from the continent find themselves in Europe or in the US or wherever. And they say, hey, why do we always meet here? Why aren't we meeting in, yeah? And then people say, where's the infrastructure? And then people will name, oh, there's this festival here, there is this festival here, there's this festival here. So there is an existing, there are existing ports, let's say, okay, which are hubs of festivals. So even outside of festivals, there are academic institutions. There are local community organizations which are dance-based or whatever, which are working with kids. And you know what I mean? So there are all of these things, these networks. So does it maybe start with like the individual being like, what is here already? And then like touching base with that. But at the same time, I feel like it runs the risk of becoming too much of an individualist thing and even an elitist, artistic thing if the work of what is actually happening on the continent, what's happening with us collectively. And you're sure art can be used to redress that, but then a kind of program, even an arts-based program, et cetera, that for me, and it's just because of how I think about things that kind of privileges that, like, okay, let's first even conceive of a unity. Yeah, but I'm not really sure. There is an opportunity, the opportunity is now, like we are locked down, we are locked down. And it is easier to travel between here and Tanzania, for example. Although even then it is a little things, there was, because now that the numbers have started to rise again, some flights, which were going around, especially in the Satic region, have been kind of canceled, things like that. Things are becoming more expensive because there are fewer flights and things are riskier, et cetera. So I mean, I guess this is what you were saying, but Faustin, we have to reconceptualize of an economic model. And then when we come into that thing of economic model, like we have to think of who produces this work. Do we trust our respective governments to help us in this feat of a project, you know? And if it's not, if we're saying it's corporate, it's private, is corporate in the time right now to be able to do these things? So then it's up to us, okay? Essentially it's always up to us. But then how do we, how do we resource, hmm? As it's been, oh. Yes, as it's been, and then how do we, how do we actively actually pull those resources? Like I don't know, yes, there is a moment, but there is just a signpost that there is a lot of particular kinds of work. And like speaking as a South African, there's particular kinds of work that even artists in South Africa need to do, right? So that when we're around and we're connecting and we're gallivanting on the continent, there is a sensitivity. There is an ingrained respect which should be there in the first place. But that's, yeah, all of the people who probably would be in place normally to be able to fund such things or not even fund to be able to help such programs are normally the people who are getting in the way of us trying to, so I don't know. Lots of chats. Dorin. Yeah, I think in my case, I think since the beginning of the quarantine, I thought, and I told you when we have that conversation about the movie that I was thinking a lot about what means to be home because he was advised that giving to people stay home, but that's raised in me that question, what home, what means to be home? And of course, I start to think about again cause he started already a couple of years ago when I decided to come back to Lubumbashi, what relationship I have with the community, what relationship I have with Lubumbashi, with the community, with my own family as well, what means to be home, to be in my own home, to be in my, you know, parent home, what connection I have with them. And for me, the situation is really an opportunity, as you said, is that opportunity to open dialogues and having conversations with people around you and also a conversation with myself and to get closer to me and to think about caring, to take care of me, of myself but also of people that around me and cause I needed that. I wanted to talk a bit about, you know, the digital cause you become a thing to, you know, to perform life. So I think I also had time to before start doing things to raise those questions and find answers and answers. And my position about that is I use a lot, a lot, you know, social media, but for me is more about to communicate and say to people, I'm still here. So I'm waving my flag, I'm still here, but I don't use it to, you know, for performing cause I'm not, I don't feel comfortable to perform that way. I'm a dancer first, is a performing art, is a art life. I want to have a connection with the audience. I'm open to use the digital, but my fear is, I mean, what I think is happening now is becoming a system that's conditioning us to do it that way, where, when we could spend more time to doing things locally, where we live. And I'm more interested by that. And that's why we've the support of the Studio Chemical among other partners, we tried to have a Congolese tour of my last production, which is dealing with homophobia. So it's really challenging, you know, thing to do in Congo and now, but I think it's important to have this kind of project cause I want to have, you know, conversation with my community and be able to talk cause we need that. We need to care of each other and we need to be able to talk and to hear each other cause we need that. We are not in the context in a country that care of us or protects us. So we have to do that. We cannot wait a protection from the government. They will not do anything for us. I think this situation has to be an opportunity to, you know, to open spaces where it's possible to have a real talk cause we need that. Can I, sorry. Go ahead. Something that she said that was very interesting to me. This, the thing of all of a sudden now we're being conditioned to make work in very particular way. I am very uncomfortable with it. Like I was talking to some people that, so I'm doing my MA and I was talking to some people who said we came here to do a performance degree, a live performance degree, a theater, live theater and performance degree and now I'm a filmmaker, right? I'm a filmmaker behind the camera. I'm a filmmaker in front of the camera. And then I thought to myself like, okay, it's been interesting for me. I've welcomed it. Although there have been particular things that I've been uncomfortable with because of the connection, a particular kind of a connection. But then also this thing of like oversaturating a particular field, right? And this thing that some people actually don't have an interest, even if people have an interest in film, don't have an interest in creating content for digital media. It's a completely different new thing. And so there's also for me, sorry, just because of what you said, it just brought that thing up for me. That there is something that I worry maybe in the time and in Corona is getting lost and continues to get lost because okay, we are in a moment where we've been forced to like reconcile what our form is. Like what does it look like now that, you know, maybe we can't touch, maybe actors can't touch. So the theater that I work at sometimes they have this rule that the actors on stage acting also can't touch. So what is that? Yeah. And then what is that? And everybody obviously like watches performances by themselves. But then when we take it out to the streets, you know, and old intimacies, like is that thing of, oh, we can't brush past strangers now going to translate even further. And that thing of we're gonna stay looking down. That thing of having master not being able to recognize people. These things, social intimacies and what's happened with them. Right? And like this kind of conditioning and even art form of our art form is about particular kinds of social intimacies. And I'm really worried about what's happening to that. You know, I'm close with West side style your collective in Lagos. You've been exploring this digital platforms for almost five or more than five years now. So, you know, could you just talk to us a bit about that experience prior to COVID and what is happening now? Because of all of us here, you are the one who've been more on that path already. It's funny how everything started. You know, when they say you do the things you thought you knew, but you never knew. You were like more like as if you knew that this period was going to come. But or not, or now. And you all started with, okay, we'll come ahead. Can you hear me? So, could you maybe if it continues like this you could just switch off your video just so we can hear you. Okay, can you hear me? Yeah, it's much better. Oh, okay, okay. So I have to start all over. Yes, please. So, you know, yeah. This whole thing started like, it's crazy. You know, when they tell you stuff like where you do the things you thought you knew, but you never knew. You know, it was more like we're already prepared for this current situation unknown to us. First thing, can you hear me? Can everybody hear me? Yeah, yeah, we can hear you. Yeah, so yeah, so disseminating our works on the fresh air media kind of like it started with what do we need to do? It was in here and for us to be heard to like an escape like what can we do to be heard, like more people to actually see where we are from, our reality, how we connect with ourselves in our immediate environment and why we want to connect with the rest of the world. You know, we tried doing this locally, but even our own people refused to listen to us. You know, listen to us for some weird reason they were blind to what we're actually trying to tell them because this is what we do. This is what we face together. But you as my brother or sister can't even see it, you know. So that's, that's, Did that change when you put it on social media? Yes. Did something begin to change? It changed. It changed when we started, you know, putting a work on disseminating its fresh air media started to like, invites good interest from certain people that actually understand what we're trying to do because they could relate with it. And in the long run, we kind of like lay out our own people in through what we're trying to do. They kind of like so better. We are like, I know this, I know that, oh, this is familiar. But like, yeah, you've been seeing it all along, but we're just showing it to you now and you can see it clearly, you know. So like going back to what Kondizwa and Doreen were saying about the difference that is different when you actually want to perform live as an artist, when you want to, is it a different connectivity, you as an artist now with your real-time audience and not because of COVID and what the situation is, the old, and what is current situation is trying to force us into, trying to condition us into, I wouldn't want to call it not real, something like it's virtual, like it's not real, but I have this question, like as an artist, I believe that as an artist, we have abilities to do whatever, like to do the unimaginable. Yes, it is different when we perform live, when we want to connect really with the streets, how it sees basically with the actual feeling as an African, as a black man, but now things are actually changing, you know. Like I said earlier, we're in the social media world, virtual world. It seems like social media is the future of technology. We don't like it when technology is going to keep evolving, same as our culture is supposed to evolve as well, but as an artist, how do we come into play? How do we try to define the time and not let time define us, even though we are aware that things are actually changing? You know, how can I, on social media, how can I come on social, how can I come to the virtual world and actually perform and still make you feel me and still make you connect with me? Is it possible and it's not possible? How can you go about it? How can you really connect with me? Let's actually be realistic. The world has actually been locked down for about six months, about six months, and similar situation happened centuries ago in the 1890s with the Spanish flu. That one lasted for about a year. You know, imagine if you were actually locked down for 20 decades. Like you don't have access to that through connection you have with the streets, with your everyday reality. You have to be locked down your room. So you actually still need the virtual world to even connect with the people in your locality. This is not even really about people outside your locality because you can't actually go out of your room. How can you connect with them virtually and not lose the connection with them? Still have the real essence of why we are together as a community and as, yes. So these are the questions we, in the long run started having now. And COVID kind of like give us this, you know, how can I, can be in front of the, it's not necessarily about the world watching me virtually. It's really about how I'm feeling at that moment. How, what I really want to see, what I really want to do with this particular content or how I'm feeling from inside. But the medium I have is virtual media. How can I connect with you? This is the work, this is the work of my hand as an artist. How can I really, really make you connect with me virtually? I feel like we can create a bridge. We can create a balance between how it is really the way we want it and what is the condition of us to be. How can we create a bridge as an artist, as a black artist? So I think this is the question which I have in mind, yeah. And what I can hear from all the questions you're asking yourself is that question of, like, the necessity and the urgency to go out there and say something that is important to you and using every platform possible. Because this burning fire needs to get out. And so if the only thing that's left is the virtual, then you dive in there because that's all you have. So it's like, see, I said earlier on that I've been reading and studying things about different agricultural methods. And in permaculture, for instance, one of the principles is that the problem is the solution. So if we start looking at every problem we face as containing its own solution and somehow I trust that that's what all of you have been doing, that's what all of us have been doing to be able to survive and to dream on this continent where the hurdles are so, so, so much. And sometimes you wonder even how people can be able to dream there. But yeah, how can we make every problem actually a solution? And how can we use this as a way of looking inwards? And one of my hopes, when I started this project around the letters from the continent, it was to just get to talk to different artists on the continent and to hear as many perspectives as possible, which I was hoping for my own selfish needs would help me continue my own journey as a citizen, as an artist. But the hope was also that you could start talking because when you talk of solidarity, it's like we need to meet, first of all. And how do we meet and how do we begin the conversation? And so how can this kind of opportunity be a way of starting that so that tomorrow I know that if I'm in Lagos, I know I have someone to go to and I can say I have a home and the same if I want to direct Salam somewhere. I don't know if you want to say something. Your microphone is off again. My microphone is already muted. So I mean, on my side, I mean, I had some similar kind of question been asking myself on that because it's the relevant situation now is at the current situation now, like first as artists to adapt with the new normal is like we have to keep working and we have to keep sharing our works and we have to tell our voices has to be hard. And like we find like the only one way at the possible one way that we could be hard is through online platforms. And like one of the question I've been asking myself is how we as artists, can we make our work like real? As like I hear a lot of things from the artists that like the virtual is like it's not really like it's just something a bit like artificial in a sense but like how we as artists can really think of our ways of telling our ideas in a way that in a way that like will be real in this virtual reality. And this, what you said to that, how can we make even the virtual real? Because it's a reality anyway. So I think, I mean, it is real, it is happening. We are in the process of it. For me, I'm very interested in playing with the form either how can I affect it with my liveness, right? Or the very thing that makes it feel like it's not real. How do I, yeah. But then also how do I allow this that I know to be affected by this new thing? Firstly, because it can't not be affected but also because it makes it more interesting. So I think also just to look on it as an opportunity to, and especially because as art makers sometimes I feel we get stuck in particular kinds of decadences, our own disciplinary decadences, which I already feel myself sometimes speaking from that point. So how do we disrupt that, right? And create more of a community. And I'm also really liking what you say about these opportunities and these panels as well being like, oh, okay, here's somebody that I didn't know. Yeah, let me follow you on Instagram. And when borders are open again properly and I find myself in, I'm gonna hit you up because chances are there's, I don't know anybody there, you know what I mean? And you don't wanna come into a place as a tourist it's always better to embed. But that right now, this is the reality of what we have with each other, right? And so even that thing of like if I'm looking at Instagram for example and connect with each other on Instagram and those curations, but those curations aren't any less effective or even any less real any less you or feeling than anything else. So maybe it's at first about shifting a particular kind of mindset and welcoming this thing, right? And then welcoming the new learning that's gonna come from it. And then knowing that there are other people on the other side of the screen there are other people who are feeling similar to how you're feeling who are thinking similar to how you're thinking and that you can connect and you can connect in real time. Look at us connecting in real time. Cross continents, is it too? Yeah, you know what I mean? Cross countries, it's incredible. See, one thing beautiful about our continent is that we've always embraced everything that comes our way and turn it into something else. So I also trust that whatever is coming our way today will embrace it and will make it ours. And so I'm very privileged to connect with all of you and to be able to listen to your voices and through this film, I felt that it's like, no. The world maybe is a very different world the world maybe locked down, but life continues. You're still there. And so please keep dreaming. Please keep making us dream because we need you and keep transforming this world. So yeah, we have a couple of minutes so to just wrap it up. So could just go around and dog in. Yes, I think it's an honor for me to have this conversation with you because I think we learn a lot from each other. It was also an honor to be connected to other people and to listen to every story of different artists part of the movie because it was for me something that gave me strength that I needed and to have this conversation have the same, give me the same feeling. And talking about digital, I think for me I'm really open to that as long as I don't lose the power to be able to say who I am and to write my own narrative. And for me, the fear that I have about conditioning is losing that, that is someone else that decide to how I should present myself and introduce myself or use my work or present my work. So for me, I really is an issue, is a question that I still have to find a good answer, a good strategy. So I keep learning from you, from other people. And yes, but it's an opportunity, as you said, we have either problem, but the solution is there. And this one. So for me, it's also just, I think I haven't mentioned it that like I really appreciated also the opportunity to in the middle of a very difficult situation to create something, you know, in the middle of a dead time, it was a dead time. And in some aspects like it either has been or continues to be. And then just the opportunity to reflect on, it was a deep reflection on myself. And then to also then watch the little clips that I saw up until I saw the final film to then see other people's reflections and to feel that connection and to really appreciate that this was about us, but that there is a through line, there really is on this continent. And that it doesn't need to be said, but I felt and feel incredibly connected to everybody's stories and to everybody. And I appreciate these opportunities and the fact that Faustin, that you are thinking of it like this, like the gathering points, the gathering points, yeah. So thank you very much. And thank you to all of you. Hello. Can you close quickly? Yeah. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes. Very well. First of all, Faustin and the rest of your team, like I would say you guys, you guys are like God sent to us. You know, this project actually came at the right time for us, like apart from the global situation and it was also a very personal time for us. So we lost one of us. So it was a very difficult time for us. And also looking at what we're going through in our immediate environment. So when the project came, yeah, we were actually experiencing it. But when the project came and we're about to start work, they were actually made us, you know what? We're actually experiencing it, but we actually need to look into it really, you know, consider every element, consider what people actually do reacting to the current situation, you know, that for us to actually create a piece, a letter, a letter actually so it's really, really personal for them. We appreciate the world is with initiative and looking at all the emails sent to us and considering the whole essence of why you're actually doing this for us as a young artist. It's a huge experience. It's a special experience connecting with you, connecting with, connecting with us during and the rest of us. So it is a good sense project for us. It's like a medium for us to, you know, let's put in this whole energy into something positive, you know? So we seized it and I'm glad it came out. We, and it was also a period where nothing was actually happening, no job, nothing to worry. First thing, you came into a project to actually give us a boost, you know, morale, like to give us this sense of belonging to, you know, even someone outside the country actually has interest in young artists around the continent, you know? That really gave us a little spark of hope and light in the midst of the terrible, terrible times. So it's one of a kind project for us, actually. Thank you very much. You think it's opportunity to thank you on behalf of the rest of the crew. We thank you and the rest of the initiative, the rest of the team. Thank you very much. Yeah, our time is up. So yeah, this is the problem when you put Africans together, they always go off on time, you know? So sorry, Simon. We just can't stop, you know? But hey, you know, some people have watches, we have time, really. Hi. Hey. Time is time for Stan Samuel Condiswa Doreen Ambrose. Thank you so much, not only for now, for sharing so much about your ways of working and your insights into how we can all continue, but also your contributions to the film, which I found powerful and moving, but also ultimately really inspiring. So I'm keen, if you haven't seen the film, that you, the viewers out there in internet space and time, log in to our website, which is www.CECArtsLink.org. The film is streaming for free until midnight New York City time on Sundays, November the 1st, so do see it while you can. And for Stan, we will see you again tomorrow. Tomorrow. A little later though, at noon, to give Peter time to wake up in Los Angeles. Yes, bunch of things. So thank you all so much. Thank you.