 I have been waiting for this. I'm so excited to be here with you, Jesse Susanna. I am absolutely thrilled and honored to be here. So for those of you who don't know, we are friends. Our children were friends, went to school together. So we've known each other for a minute and I'm just like super honored to be able to be in conversation with you and share some of your wisdom with this audience of folks. I was absolutely ecstatic that you accepted the invitation. All right, so first this book is amazing. And I know for me, I would say that there is a it is it is about much more than money. Will you just like for folks who haven't read it yet to say like what this book is and what it isn't. So the book centers on financial healing. Healing or finances is the sort of central premise of my work and it walks people through a seven step system in order to, you know, put some structure and form on what that process could look like. So I would say in general my work is for I say healers hustlers and creatives. But I think that it can expand outside of that but you know to almost anyone I truly feel like almost anyone can use a little financial healing or just healing in general but the book is not I would say for the healing phobic, which is a lot of people. And that came up really in writing this because the title that I wanted originally or had proposed was heal your finances because that you know it's a major it's the tagline of my work was my old website. URL, but the publisher was kind of like we can't, we can't really do that because in mainstream American culture like healing has this connotation of like there's something wrong with you like if you tell someone they need to heal your finances. They were literally like we can't call it heal your finances because then no one can buy it as a gift for anyone else because they would be saying like there's something wrong like an insult. Yes, exactly. So if you do not want to heal the book is not for you. Got it. But if you either are looking for a more peaceful relationship with money, or you are a person who really wants to gain self awareness in general and are kind of on like a healing evolution exploration journey in general and you'd like a different lens. I feel like this is an opportunity they should do that work through the door of money. Yes, like it is. It's just like entry point to the healing that we all need for something. And I feel like, so I don't remember what a few years ago, but it's time anymore. You did a reading for me, and I felt like so much of the stuff that came up for me around money was like super familiar from the things that come up for me around everything else in my life like it felt. I was like, Oh, these are the themes that like come up in my therapy sessions. I want to talk a little bit about kind of why money ends up being this kind of entry point into all these other places where we experience, you know, things like avoidance which I want to talk about and like just some of the stuff that I think all of us need to be working on in our lives like why is money one of the places where that comes up. It's exactly like you said it's you know the wherever you go there you are phenomenon right like it's not different you're not a different person with money than you are with anything else. But maybe it's a slightly different facet I tend to think of, I mean humans and and almost everything in this kind of like multifaceted reality. My kid likes to play nerd games and like we have like those 20 sided dice so I you know I think of it like that and I think money is just, you know, it's the same dice, maybe a slightly different facet. But it's going to interact with, you know, it's pulling certain threads it's pulling threads about survival about power about empowerment like how you feel in your body. I think like something I notice a lot is that it really activates and highlights, whether people actually feel comfortable being incarnated on earth in their life or not. Like, when you start talking about money, you're just like, Oh, I can really see like pretty quickly like you actually feel resentful for like being alive. Wow. So I'm gonna sit with that for a second. This is what this is part of what I loved about the bar. So I'm just gonna actually read this this quote from chapter, I think it's chapter two, because there were so many like emotional and spiritual bombs that you drop in this where I just had to pause and be like, Oh, shit. So, you say, avoidance is behavior we engage in because we think it will reduce our stress and anxiety when in fact it causes high levels of subconscious emotional distress makes us makes us anxious irritable and depressed. It also disempowers us impacts our self esteem and causes logistical messes and emergencies, we have to clean up later. And then you say the issue is like whatever it is we're avoiding right the issue is still demanding my energy and my attention, but all of that energy is floating toward managing the symptoms. Rather than exploring the possibility of healing the root cause of my financial woes, the unhealed parts of our finances make often harsh demands on us every single day. As someone who like avoidance is one of my go tos right for like stuff that's uncomfortable. I read that and I just like had to I had to put the book down and like walk away because And I think that that that just that idea that what it did is reframe for me like that the avoidance isn't actually avoiding anything right like that. The energy that I'm using to avoid the thing is still like energy being used up and I just feel like I want you to say more about that. Well you just it's like whatever is true is true you can't avoid it it doesn't cease to be true because you're not paying attention to it. And I also think it's like, it's, it's disempowering, but and also potentially kind of dangerous right because it's like, the thing doesn't cease to exist is just that you have your back to it. Right. And having your back to something is like the most disempowered stance you can take, you know, especially with things like taxes or you know people are like well the IRS hasn't sent me a letter so and I'm like well do you want to just wait until the IRS feels like sending you a letter and like have that kind of drop in your life at whatever moment they decide to do it or do you want to be like I'm going to handle it on my own timeline on my own terms and you know it's just it's kind of like radical acceptance right like money work is radical acceptance work because it's just like yeah like fair enough you feel resentful at being incarnated you know what I mean like fair enough it's like somewhere like on a spectrum of horrific to have to like figure out how to you know, make money within late stage global capitalism like, but this is, this is it. We're doing it like here we are do you know what I like you're not out of it it does that does not cease to exist like on any given day and you can kind of go anywhere on a spectrum like with that acceptance work from just kind of like okay I accept I don't like it but I accept it it is what it is to kind of like well I'm going to hold that maybe there's a purpose for this right or there's like meaning in it let me like attempt to to weave some sort of like context of meaning and death. And that that also felt like you say that there are threads of that throughout the whole book and I feel like the like one of the things I think I don't remember what the exact quote is but like you talk about how like we're here there's work that we're here to do right and that addressing the way like what what money is for us because of the context we live in is part of the work that we have to do like like in our lives like on the planet. And you also talk about how like capitalism exists. It is the context that we exist in it is how we access the things that we like our human rights right the things we actually need to live. And we don't have you talk about like how we don't have control like we don't have control over the fact that that exists, but we do have agency. Will you pull apart those two things a little bit because I feel like that's a really important distinction for us to make as we approach not just money but life. Yeah, I mean, in, in short, it's just like, I don't know I grew up my dad was in a when I was growing up right so it's like the serenity prayer is like embedded in my brain from small childhood right but it's like, you know, just accepting what you can change and what you can't change, right like there's things you can change. And the job is to like step to the edge of that and not get like pushed smaller, you know, like standing in the at the edge of your sphere of agency at the same time, you know, we're not in control of other people and their decision making right so it's like, you know, our sphere gets pushed by that, and then also we're under a sphere of like, you know these larger societal systems and also, you know, material reality of like resource availability or not right like the earth has a certain amount to give and that's kind of it right. So those spheres like pushed on our sphere on our little sphere of agency, but it's easy for us to, you know, become depressed and and confused right because we're being gaslit and all these things like culturally non stop and to be like oh well my sphere isn't like this it's you know it's much smaller. And the work is, I think to see the true edges of your sphere of agency and like really do the work to kind of like stand right at the edge of it. Right, not like, not shrink yourself and thinking that it's much smaller than it is, or not anything yeah. So another thing that I found super helpful was the way that you talk about capitalism. And accountability and politics and privilege and desire right like that. I think some of us avoid caring about money right as because we because because we think that there's something gross about like, caring about money and I think they'll say this to like one of the other things that came up in the reading that you and I did was that like my Libra rising likes beautiful things my Libra rising really loves adornment like loves. You said you said that like we are the keepers of the temple right like we feed the cat and like sweep the steps and like tidy the altar. And this was all like this was all in service of getting me to like create some kind of regular habit about like going into books and like checking things. And you were like frame it like that way think of like like QuickBooks as being this like temple and like you you like things to be tended to. And that was amazing. And I totally like I mean I don't know that I go every week but I go regularly in and I'm like oh I'm tending to the temple of my, you know, resources. And but the other thing was about like it gave me this kind of permission to care about like you like making myself beautiful and adorning myself and I feel like that was in such it felt like it was in such conflict with my politics but there's a way in which you I think talk about capitalism politics accountability and responsibility that like allows for us to actually like think that money is important and I want you to talk a little bit about that because I just think it's super helpful. Yeah there's a few things I mean one is that at a certain point in my personal work around all kinds of privilege, like economic privilege and also racial privilege I had to realize like I cannot strive towards. I mean I certainly can't strive towards perfectionism and like you know we're all exploring the problematic nature of that, but even like ethical like being ethical. Like, what does it mean to be striving to be ethical in the context of a system that is inherently unethical do you know what I mean like if I was going to be ethical I could literally not ever buy anything like from target or the dollar store or the corner store and it's just like it's not possible so but there has to be some compass point right right that I'm trying to be an integrity with an Orient my behavior to and I came to just like the idea of responsibility right like to stop trying to strive for ethical you know means and to be like okay. What does it mean to be responsible which to some extent means you know being in relationship with right like I was thinking about that you know when Chris needed the land acknowledgement and just like you know everything that I the teachings that I've like been able to have the privilege of listening to that it's like it's not just about saying the words out loud or acknowledging the land it's about like being in relationship right right with the people and so being responsible with the resources has to mean being in relationship with resources like trying to like bow out of the relationship is not actually ethical respectful responsible it does not make you an integrates like player in the system somehow you're already in the system like it's a game so it's like you're not you know trying to tap out of it especially if you are a person who has economic or racial privilege is ridiculous like it's like it's like as a white person you can't be like I'm not going to like benefit from white supremacy like you don't have a choice. And so it's like you can't you know if you're not an indigenous person to this piece of land like you can't like not benefit from that you know if it like if you are and then if you're living here it's just like this is there's an extractive there's a global extractive like resource drain that drains like towards this body of lands towards this government and it's like you are not getting out of that. Right. I really appreciate the like, instead of like feeling kind of guilty or trying to like distance yourself like from the thing that's problematic that like you have to figure out what how are you going to be responsible about the fact that it exists and you're in it and that that was just really. Well it was empowering right like I felt I felt like I was like oh I have some I have some agency here to be making choices about how I'm going to be in relationship with these systems as opposed to trying to remove myself from them. So that was awesome. So, one of the things that you say in chapter four which is what's chapter four about look at the, like what it's called. I'm going to look to with you. There we go it's okay yes the whole chapter is about setting intentions right and you say hold on let me find this quote because it's so good. You say an intention is a statement that shifts and bends an idea from the realm of desire into the realm of action and possibility where it cycles from the element of air to the element of earth. So first of all, like, like just like knowing that like the act of setting an intention is shifting things from like more into reality and like groundedness was super helpful. And then you say an intention is also a wish. Wishing is a form of healing that signifies an opening to possibility and the willingness to dream into a potentiality that may be beyond what seems practical. A little impracticality can be a tool when we are learning to let go of limiting beliefs. So I read that I read that I read it. When I was I was in Mendocino by myself just like having a little retreat for my birthday and I read that. And I went and for the first time in my life bought a lottery ticket. Yeah. Because I was and I was like, I'm going to win the lottery. Like I let myself like I gave myself permission to just believe that I was going to win the lottery. I did not. I mean, I won $9, which was less than I spent on it. But like letting myself like the room that I gave me to just like believe that that was going to happen meant that then I like I got the ticket and then I was waiting for like the to be announced the thing. And I did a whole budget of what I would do if I won $156 million. And it told me these things that I hadn't didn't know about like what was important to me and what I prioritized. And I was just like so and I was like, oh, that's what this is about. Like, like, I'm like, I still want to win $156 million. But regardless, like the the act of being able to like be a little impractical and then like set some like dream big and then think about like what it is I actually wanted. I found so like revelatory. And what I found was that like, of course, like there was like the things I want for myself and the things I want for my loved ones and the things I want for the communities I care about. And I think for me in terms of like it allowed me then to like, okay, I don't have $156 million, but there is a way in which I can think about my resources and set intentions right around making sure that I'm directing my resources toward those things. That was just like so cool. It makes me think a couple of things. One is just like, you know, there's a whole chapter about just like that you, you need to or it's so healing to make space to just be in touch with these desires. And I think as often as like, you know, capitalism critical people, anti capitalist people and political people were like, don't even think about it, you know what I mean, because it makes you feel bad and I'm like well actually like thinking about it doesn't mean you're doing it. You know, and it's like, it's not a bad idea to think about it. And also like it really hits something for me to I resonate with it being so poignant because it's been a piece of work that I've been doing for a couple years in a lot of areas of my life of really embracing the energy of like the tarot card the fool, which is the the starting card of the deck, and it's really just about being like, yeah, it's like, you know, it's the let's go right so it's like, actually that like that let's go energy like let's embark on a new journey like it's kind of like you have to be a little crazy like let's do this, but it's it's lineage healing work for me, because I have so much embedded feeling like, you know, from my mother but my mother's mother was very like, to her that absolute worst thing that you could ever do was be foolish or look foolish. Like it's that would be, you know what I mean the worst. I feel all the time the way that that lives in my body and stops me from wanting to do things that I might not nail, you know, because like, oh well then I'll look foolish and I just was like, like, fuck it, you know, and I, I've embraced it a lot in the in the romance world to just be like, yeah, it's like, yes, you just have to be like, yes, maybe this will end terribly, but like I'm just choosing right now to be like fuck it let's go like, you know, and I think like that, I don't know that medicine just feels like really, really potent, and yeah, as well. Oh, I love that. I mean you in the book you talk a lot about like the stories that we carry around money and in chapter two, you talk about doing a financial audit and one of the things was struck me was this question you ask about like, who are we trying to please. I think about how we think we, you know, quote unquote should manage our finances. And like, oh, what came up for me was like the like performing respectability that like because of the place that I sit as a black woman and my kind of like intersections of identity in terms of racial and being like middle class and having grown up in an environment where I was not like explicitly told but certainly praised and rewarded for like following a very like conventional path, you know, doing well in school and going to college and then getting a job and and all of that that there was this like, there's this like panel of anonymous like white men who I have this like story of like them watching me as I think about performing respectability about money. And they are not just living in your head. What makes it even more challenging right because it's also like, if you go to a bank, right, or you like apply for a loan or you like get a call from the IRS, or you, you know, watch people like making economic policy on TV, like a lot of those people are, you know, spouting these same ideas and that same, like, you know, physical identity. Well, there's, there's, you know, there are all these have been these stories in the last few years about people black folks getting their home like homes they own appraised, and then getting, and then like, like them getting appraised like clearly under market rate and then them removing all evidence that they are black people there and having like a white friend stand in for them and having it appraised again, and like, 10s and hundreds of thousands of dollars being added to the appraisal. So yes, those those the panel of white men is real. And I was like, well, do I want them like living rent free in my head. Like, I was like, I don't think so. And there's and there's a and this is where the agency right comes in for me is like, it is useful for me to know how to perform respectability if there is something that I want. And someone is is a an obstacle to that. And performing respectability might like allow me to get to the thing right like that, like that then I can make that choice. But to have them be there when I'm like when I decide I'm not going to do my quick books I'm going to like sit in the sun instead like I don't need that. So I just felt like that that question of like who are trying to please was such a what's such a poignant one. Well, it's like, I guess that makes me think like, it's like, yeah, you want to know the answer to the riddle to get across the troll bridge but you also want to remember that there's still a troll. Totally. I think you know in in coaching sessions, I think about this idea of like a board of directors in your head. Yeah, voices and just identifying because I think, you know, we just feel like oh well that's us or that's our intuition or you know but there's really all these different voices that have different opinions that like you're saying they live inside us like their voices are present and if we're not super cognizant about like that's who speaking right now, then we can just kind of take it on right like we internalize it so much more and so being like oh hey I see you and that's who's talking to me right now. It's, it just so much of our healing work is about just inserting these little tiny pauses before the automatic neural reaction, you know what I mean. But it's just like, even if you could just get that one second of like, hey, maybe this isn't a feeling or a thought or a reaction that I need to take on because actually it's coming from this panel, you know, that one second can wedge in and create like so much liberatory space. Yep. And this is like, you know, why my therapist has been telling me to meditate for years, because you have to build the capacity to do that noticing right like we have to let there's a kind of self awareness that we have to build. So finally I'm doing that. So chapter five is all about owning the obstacles. And this is one of those ones that I felt like I had to pause a lot in in reading because so many of the obstacles right like resonated. It's emotional and spiritual blocks we have around money. And it's so practical and so clear. And part of what I appreciated about like the way that they're presented here is that like things like you know, avoidance again family baggage perfectionism scarcity boredom. I was like, oh yes, shock. Like, they're just, there's just this really expansive, unprocessed grief anger like all these things that come up for us. When we're that might come up for us around money. And I'm wondering like, as you've worked with people, how I mean we talked about this a little bit but like I want to hear more about like, how people find like that working through this entry point of these experiences, moves other aspects of their lives and kind of like what that unlocks for them. I think, and this is particular, you know, to the way that kind of like my brain and my emotional brain work, but it's not completely unique right for me. And I find having a mental grasp on, on what's happening inside of me having the language for those things. That helps me so much, you know, like it really helps me calm down and naming things and like finding the language for experiences that you've been having just helps you like unravel the the knotted ball right so that it doesn't just feel like this chaos. It's, Oh, well actually that's made out of this and we can kind of like pull the strings apart and like, you know, rewind them or whatever we're going to do that just creates like an environment that's much more peaceful and much less chaotic. But that languaging to me like I when I have words for what's happening, I feel much more able to, you know, weave the connections with other parts of my life, and to kind of like advance those thoughts in the way that I need to I think in our healing processes like people, you know, like guides show up for us. And I feel in that role right like often for people and you know I used to when I first started coaching like people would be like, tell me more about your coaching sessions and you know like can we have a free call and I just have always been like, actually if you have to ask a lot of questions like we probably you let's just not work together, because I work in a way where I'm like if you think you should have a session with me, you definitely should because I'm holding something that you need in order to move like take something that you already have, make it makes sense so that you can go to the next step. Right. And so I feel like that's what this is like this is, you know, I am a vessel and a channel right so this is like, oh, if you've like arrived at this moment and this like book is on your consciousness I'm like, there's something in here that will help you make sense of something in a way that will allow you to like move forward and move on totally. One of the things that I think about in several aspects aspects of my work that I think apply here are how these like they're these large systems that are working against us or or like systems that should be supporting us but aren't. And so often we go to a solution and I'm talking about capitalism, or like health care you know like health care like all this these things that we have to interact with right so often we go to a solution that depends on us as individuals to like bootstrap it. But so often the answer actually is that like we circle up with other people to create like micro infrastructure to address the problems are facing and there are a couple of places in here that you talk about like community and kind of getting help from other people to do this work and I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that. I'm like, it makes me want to cuddle with your book because we should shout you out to and I have all my little posts in course. Micro infrastructure is all we've got. Right. Okay, let's just. Just so you know, y'all know what's coming to save us. So we have to get together. Money is so it's taboo right so it's a thing that often we don't get together about right we don't talk about and I know so many people find it's a liberating to just be like oh I even like I talked to three people in my office about like what their salary is or I talked to a group of my friends about like, you know, who's doing budgeting or not and like how that's working out for them right like even something as starter as that and just be like very liberating in the way that like exploring any kind of like taboo topic. You know can be and and then just like noticing I mean it just makes me think of like mutual aid right like all the different ways that mutual aid like lives in our lives. But I think it's like the whole system of a bootstrapping you know the bootstrapping leg of the capitalist agenda. And the like American colonial agenda is based to a certain extent or it's like you know it's deeply invested in us like not having these conversations. Yes. So the more that we're like actually having the conversations and being like we don't have to do it alone, you know we don't have to figure it out in isolation. And we don't have to be ashamed right because I think one of the things about coming together and community is it allows like an airing out of the shame because it requires a little bit of an overcoming of a certain amount of shame. But all of you know bootstrapping is a shame agenda. Right like it's like you are personally responsible whatever is going on for you, you are personally responsible, you have personally created it. And if you have not like shifted the, you know situation like that's a personal problem. And being able to let go of that internal messaging is a deeply powerful like overcoming or like moving through certain types of shame that allow us to kind of like debunk and make smaller the like bootstrap agenda. So that I feel like ties back to the responsibility that you were talking about and that part of like our responsibility is to like rebel against the ways in which this those systems want us to like stay silent and like keep secrets. And talking to each other about money is one of those things. I think it's intimidating. You know, because a lot of times when people are talking about resources and like what how to be responsible with our resources. Right. Like there's so many voices. Right now right it's like if you say any way there's going to be like literally thousands of people like just like yelling at you on the internet right. I think it kind of circles back. I'm like, in the end all of our therapists were right and we should be meditating every day because having that grounded centered compass right like having self trust working on our self esteem being an integrity helps us to kind of like navigate and tolerate that experience of the external feedback because I think that is another reason why people don't talk about money right is like they don't want a million people like telling them what to do with their resources or you know shaming them or for you know for any direction that they're existing in and it's like I think that is partly because we're we're deeply ungrounded, you know, we're not like spending this time on getting there. And I think part of what is so useful about your book is that it's not you know you're not like here's how to create a budget like here's what you're not like here's what you should be doing like in terms of like what the actual practice of like managing finances is and I think that like this point of entry. Like if someone if someone I feel like now I have this like a whole different set of like tools and language to talk with people about money right so it's not if somebody tells me what they're struggling with like I don't get I don't have to go to kind of like additional money stuff I can I can be like I can be like oh what are the obstacles like I get there's a whole set of like questions I feel like I can like engage with my community and around talking about money that are not about giving people advice about what they should do with their money or how they should be spending it but more like what is your healing journey on it which I just like that in and of itself just feels like such such an important way to like reframe how we talk about with ourselves but then like how we can engage with other people. I have two more questions that I want to get before we get to the audience we got it. So this other brilliant thing you say is that this is in. I don't remember what chapter it is. But you say discipline is remembering what you want. It is. I was like holy shit. I don't even know who he is because even to trace down like chase down who said it because I had to go through this whole because every blogger on earth has like quoted it and but then they all are like attributing it to the same guy but I think they're deciding another blog. Some wise person said that will you talk a little bit about what that because I just thought I was like oh God like that resonates is true but I want to hear you say more about like why that's true. And I like why that is the adage that you live by. I just am constantly like reacting to something or being distracted by something with my like ADD brain and then being like is this like if I just go back to that right like if I just return right to that center which so much mindfulness work is just all about that like okay returning to something returning to something. If I return to like is what I'm doing right now which could be like how I'm thinking what I'm doing with my time how I'm treating someone that I care about. Like is this helping me get what I want. You know like if I remember like discipline is remembering what you want you know what I mean and just be like what do I want like is this doing that and often I'm like no I've sort of wandered off the path. Right. So just being like let me just return to the path. Let me just return to the path. Oh my god. I feel like I'm just like okay like just that piece and thinking about in my life not just with money but with so many things about where I wander from the path and then just in the act of of asking myself what I really want is not actually enough for me to necessarily shift back to the path right like because there are all these obstacles and then there's this exploration there that I feel like I want to do. And I'm just I'm I'm as you're talking I was just like oh I need to remind myself to be gentle with myself about this I'm also just going to say to you all listening like that as you kind of explore that piece just like yeah be gentle with I'm just I'm I'm both like feeling like tender and vulnerable about what it's going to unlock but also like super excited about what it means to actually engage more it with more alignment right with like what what with discipline for myself in terms of like to actually like bring forward the things that I really want. Okay, so in the last chapter of the book, which is all about failure. One of thank you. One of the most powerful pieces to me was when you talk about how the void is part of the process. And you say, where is it you say your fellow season is still generative. And nothing seems possible when you have failed when everything is collapsing around you, embrace the compost pile. And then you say, there is abundance in the void. The void is nothingness, but it is also infinite potential. I've read that and I was like, yes, yes. Say more about that. I'm teaching a whole workshop about it in May, actually. But it's part of the work of like unhooking abundance from capitalism, right, because just like anything right like, it's like we find ourselves exploring, you know, alternative ways of being right, and or things that were like, oh this is a little outside the system, and then we go down the road and like, oh here's all the ways that I've just like replicated everything from these like oppressive systems that was supposed to be outside of the system. So it's like abundance is supposed to be like the work of spiritual abundance is supposed to be about understanding that like we're enough like I am enough. You know, I deserve things just like other people deserve things like that's the spiritual work of abundance, but there's all these ways in which it's so easy to get hooked into capitalist thinking right where it's like, oh, if I am abundant, if I am doing abundance right if I'm doing the spiritual work of abundance I will be able to tap in viscerally to that feeling that there's a lot and it will every day get more, you know, it'll go like that but I'm like, any line that goes like this forever, you can feel very certain is just capitalism right. So it's, you know, it's just being like, oh, well, then I have to do the work which is, you know, it's not a simple task, and I'm just like in the work of like, you know, learning that like when the line curves, and even when it curves back to like what feels like the origin point. Right. I cannot engage in the feelings of like something's wrong. Right. Because something is not wrong. It's just that nature does not go like this. Right. It goes like this. I am a part of nature. Yes. It is. And, and I think part of what like, so, you know, I just had my birthday. Um, and I went to the like the same place that I went last year and part of what that that returning allowed me to do was see how I've grown. Right. So like, we may feel like the thing is going back this way but like we're not the same person we were the first time we will like around and there's a way in which like just knowing that we are going to be in that space of failure of fallowness of whatever differently is like actually the thing right. Not that the, again, not that it goes like this, but that we're actually going like this and it's like who are we, and how are we, how, how things shifted and like, and the opportunity that that returning to what feels like old shit gives us to notice like all the change that has happened. Yeah, revisiting the same vantage point which you know I think is also like trying to unlearn habits of, you know settling and colonialism and all those things capitalism the way all those things are intertwined because it's about staying in relationship or where we've been also and not just me. I'm going to the fucking new world. Right. And nothing else existed before this. Exactly. Right. So it's like staying in relationship like revisiting those vantage points like fleshing out, you know the spiral like flushes out a sophistication and maturity of relationship, a complexity of relationship over time. And it's like we can't have like a fear of returning to places that we've been because like you're saying it's like it is. It's not does not equal failure right like we think like oh if I returned to where I've been it equals failure. It's like it just is still a part of everything, you know. Oh my God. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for your questions, Christina. Do we have questions from the audience, Christina? Oh my goodness well we definitely have so much love in the chat for your leopard print for you know just all the things, the birthday leopard print that's happening right now. to ask as we've been hearing these brilliant minds talk about all the things. So, but I will go ahead and just start one off and see, and I'm just curious how you would each, if you would be so, I guess, vulnerable to share for yourself, like, how would you each describe your own healing journey at this moment right now in relationship to resource, abundance, and capitalism? Like, what would you share with us? Mia, do you want to speak? Yeah, sure. I think, I mean, I have, there's like five things, right? The thing that comes to mind is, is the actually asking myself what I want and to be like, like open enough and to not put like butts in there or limitations or think about like, what's realistic, but just to really like be like, what do I actually want? Someone wants to see the book title again, someone hold it up. I'll answer this question. That feels like like, what do I desire? That feels like a big one for me, because it feels very vulnerable to admit that I want something and to believe that I can have it and should have it. Thank you for being vulnerable, Mia. Yeah. I think for me, it's about moving into, you know, it's like I am about to turn 41 next week. And I feel like for me, it's about moving into attempting to move into a state of being more resourced, right? So kind of like, okay, what do I need to do to very seriously level up like the way that I'm resourced and the way that I can like create resource for other people and doing the emotional work of like fully taking responsibility for that, which is a lot of logistical work, really, but also the work of like feeling comfortable standing in being a resourced person. That makes me think about like, the ways in which, like one of the places it's important for us to get support and help, right? Like, I do not like to do logistical shit. And I have learned, and this is also a piece of the like, what do I really want? What do I deserve kind of stuff is being like, Oh, I don't like to do that stuff. So I should not actually do it. I should have somebody else do it, which means that I have to have the resources to like pay someone to do those things. And of course, what I have learned by doing that is that my resources expand when I'm actually focused on the things that I should be doing, and somebody else is doing the shit that I should not be doing. That like the leap of faith that that it took for me to do that, which is totally connected to like work that you and I have done together, Justina, was just like profound for me to be like, Oh, like I get, I have access to more resources and not just money, but like energy and time and relationship. When I do not think that I need to do all the things and I have other people do those things for me. Fantastic. I want to go back to a question that is very practical and but also I think very much in line with, you know, the discussion and the ethos of what's happening here today. The question was in the most financially beneficial way, is there a place that you all prefer that we purchase your amazing books and also our chat monitor will go ahead and throw in the links for how you can borrow these books from the library, which are definitely available. But asking where did where would you point folks in towards buying your books? Yeah, bookshop.org is a really great site where you can kind of choose to purchase online, but from a local bookstore or from like a kind of like web of local bookstores. So I love that. I think there's different there's all different facets, right? So that number one, number two, the kind of like heavy hitter booksellers, you know, are advantageous for me personally, because they got my numbers off and books is a number game. I'm sorry, there's an airplane going overhead. But thirdly, you can also purchase it from my website, money, which calm and financially, because I like to be a financially transparent person, a book sells for about $20, right? So royalties wise, an author gets about $1 from that. But then if I'm retailing it, I get more like $9. So anyway, there's a that's the economic benefit of buying it directly from the author. For me, it's Marcus Books. You can it's the oldest black bookstore in the country. It is in my neighborhood I love the hell out of them. If you want a signed copy, that's like the only place you can get it, you can like call and you have to call them like I don't know they sometimes they have a website that works sometimes they do not as kind of old school. If you can call them and order the book and say you want it signed, then I will get an email from them saying to come in and sign the book. It's the only place that I've signed books. So fantastic. And you can see those links in the chat. We have one question coming in from Angela and it is how to respond to cynicism slowly awakening dystopia as the language of self care, lgbtqis the movement as it's co-opted by and sold back to us. It's real. I think like, I'm going to just hear the kind of like how do we, I don't know, I mean, how do we like access places of allowing ourselves to be vulnerable and trusting in the midst of so many systems and structures that are exploitative, right? And like how do we allow ourselves space to do that and not have to have our cynical brain on 24 seven, even though it's so legitimate to do so because the, you know, it's like fair enough, right? Like fair enough to be cynical, you know, of everything all the time, but it is so painful to be cynical, you know, we want to be sweet, you know, and we deserve it even when it's foolish, you know, kind of coming back to that. So just like carving out the space to just be foolishly sweet and vulnerable sometimes just because we want to, it doesn't even have to be a good idea, you know? I love that. I feel like there's also something that you talk about just like, like part of it is about like, well, what has access to us, right? Like if there are ways in which like, where do we create space for ourselves to be vulnerable and be sweet and like wide-eyed, right? That aren't, that don't feel, where it doesn't feel like there is so much friction between having doing that, right? So I think about, I'm like, well, what are the things, like where are the places where those things are being sold back to me? Like what if I just don't engage with them? Or when I like, you know, and maybe not permanently, but like what if I just like don't engage with them as much and like actually kind of create more, build more places in my life with like actual human beings where those things don't have access to me and where I can learn to practice what I think is often like, like there is a, there is a, you know, there is a kind of armor in cynicism, right? So like where, if I want to like not have my armor on, like maybe I need to start in places that are really safe for me to do that, to practice not having it on. So then like I can be in places where I'm being sold self-care and not in like things that are not actually, that are like corrupted versions of things I care about. And maybe then I can not have my armor on and it won't, it won't affect me so much. Thank you both. I think that's an incredible place to end on, being foolishly sweet and finding the places where your armor is not on. So I want to just thank you so much, Jesse Susanna and Mia Burtzong for your insights, your conversation. I don't think I'm the only person who would come back for this next week and just keep hearing y'all, keep sharing and talking and vibing. But I want to offer you a chance to say any words of farewell. First, Jesse Susanna, how about you start and then Mia. I just want to say appreciation and thank you to everyone who came today. I know that people's finances and healing processes is like, it's a very intimate place. It lives in a very intimate place and I really don't take it lightly to be invited even into kind of like the thought sphere of that for you. So I really thank you. I feel the honor and I also like honor the work that people are doing showing up for themselves today. I want to echo that thanks. And Jesse Susanna, I really want to thank you for creating like in book form what feels like a companion, right? This is not a book that you just kind of like read through and then like know a bunch of stuff. It is a book that invites like you to be in company with it and to take time and space to like practice things. I mean, y'all like we didn't talk about there's like all these rituals in here, there are suggestions for like tea you can be drinking while you're doing some of these practices or exploring different parts of the book. There are crystals, there are spells like there's just like it's so rich with like your like wisdom and the and I know it's not just your wisdom. I know it's all like wisdom that you have drawn from and that this is just like such an amazing gift in that way that it's that it is like like I said, it's a companion. So I just really appreciate you creating this like companion for me in book form. Thank you. Thank you. And Christina for the coordination and the invitation. Oh, absolutely. You're so welcome. And I hope that you all get a chance to see what all the love that is being given to you in the chat. I think this there was really, you know, it's incredible. I know for so many people they feel like, Oh, I'm zoomed out. I can't do this virtual thing anymore. But you know what, like when the energy is here, and you just can make those connections and we are here in relationship with one another. So I think something really special happened here today. And I just want to remind folks that they can access your your companion in book form, you know, at the bookstores that have been put in the chat at here at your local library, we are open seven days and totally here for you. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jesse, Susanna and Mia for your time, for your brilliance, for your intention and your community today. And I'm just going to say to our audience, that's all folks. We hope that you take really good care of yourself and stay safe. We hope to see you back here at the public library either in person or virtually soon. And so thanks, everyone. Bye.