 We're starting a monthly series here called TFIR topic of the month or T3M The idea of the series is to take a pulse of the ecosystem of the industry and then bring together experts To deep dive into these topics and today we have with us once again, Katherine Magave Chair of Cloud Foundry Foundation and Vice President of Software Engineering at VMware Katherine. It's great to have you back on the show Thank you, Swapna. We're going to be here and today the discussion is going to be around cost cutting or to be more precise Being more cost-efficient in this economy We are seeing a lot of movement within the industry. What are you seeing? What are the trends you are seeing? Which we can look at it where companies are trying to become more cost-efficient Yeah, I think one of the most interesting trends is just really that one of the easiest costs to sort of Clamp down a little bit on is cloud spend. You know, are you really utilizing the environments you're spinning up? Are you taking good diligence in spinning them down? What's that cost spend across your organization? We think of travel teeny and cost cloud spend seem to be that the two big ones that companies are looking at how to put more controls on because they're easy ones to adjust and turn off and on as Companies sort of financial status changes. What role can Cloud Foundry play to actually help companies become more cost-efficient? As you know, I'm a big fan of open source and open source even outside of my role in Cloud Foundry We do a lot of investment in what Cloud Foundry provides is if if another Product or capability is provided through the software and you don't have to develop it yourself That's always open. You can get lift from that now You still have to patch and maintain whatever comes out of the open source And so I think one of the best ways companies can gain efficiency is really look for what Commonality exists versus what they're building and how do they get lift out of the open source? They have to do less development That means sort of smaller more focused teams as a result which can be really effective with getting more reach in the market So that open source work now where Cloud Foundry really shines on this is it's tailored its open source and the platform as a whole Really shining on developer needs so instead of a developer saying hey I want a space or I want an environment and it needs to have this type of HA and this type of environment It really levels up the conversation. So developers are saying hey, I have an app And I have an app I want to deploy so it changes the context of where they're focusing and that creates a lot of lift even in their day-to-day of How much work they have to do to get spun up or get a new environment up and running as teams are getting a smaller We I mean I've been running a show and what we hear is that companies will also cut down on Do it yourself or you know, that's so-called not invented head syndrome They rely more on open source technology because the technology is always there and of course I remember somebody said that you know the propriety code should be more like Tabasco sauce in your food Not the whole food. So you should use a lot of open source So do you think that we will also see a more adoption of open source where companies will utilize that You know, because it does make them and also there's a whether we look at cloud foundry or Kubernetes There's a massive ecosystem of vendors who can come in help you once you move today It's smart of companies to go down that path the challenge I think is there's there's actually a cost of that investment anytime you're introducing a new tool into your tool chain There's the integration cost of that and there's the maintenance cost of that And I think if you go in understanding those costs and understanding the trade-offs You can get a lot of want a lot of win out of it now Often as a company if you're getting open source work You want to make sure it stays aligned and this is where it motivates companies to get invested in that community and to ensure It's aligned to their longer-term interests associated with it as well The biggest challenge I think with open source work and getting that lift is the CV management in the patching And that's where I'm seeing a lot more internal investment happen both from the community side But also from a lot of the companies we work really closely with that investment in how do we maintain and patch and keep up to date? All of the all of the software we're using And there's a bit more control when you're doing it yourself And you rely a bit on others in the open source community as it comes in talk a bit about once again the rule Cloud Foundry plays because we had the decision only of that Cloud Foundry kind of brings the developer experience to the Kubernetes ecosystem In this you know Kubernetes-Centrical Cloud Foundry word with Kubernetes Kubernetes really changed the game on What is the new ecosystem where you can run any workload? Whether it's a data service or an app or a function it kind of set the level playing field for here's one Interface you can use to run all of that what Kubernetes Enabled is fantastic But the actual outcome that users care about is I want to not I want it running and I want it stable And I want to know the status of it and I want to do as little as possible work on that environment to make that happen And so from a cost-cutting measure We talk about controls if you can put controls or guard rails in place to make it simple for a developer to have what they need and To have it in a controlled way So you know what you're providing to the developers then you can be really cost efficient with that the more choice you provide The longer it takes a person to make a decision and the more complex that cost-cutting structure needs to be And so I think about this from really simple use case perspective If I'm an application developer and I want to run my app and it's my team environment It's my dev environment where it's the first time we all integrate together. I Might only have one choice of my SQL database to connect it won't be HA. It'll be simple. They won't be Back up or restore available with it now if I'm going to a staging or a larger environment That'll shift and so when I think about the cost-cutting measures that are there It's also limiting choice to environments where that choice isn't needed and they can be feedback cycles and that can change and giving choice where it is needed where the costs also increase as Associated to that choice and if you can level up the conversation to it doesn't actually matter where it's running and focus it to What is the outcome that matters you actually get the win there both on cost and efficiency of getting That app closer to production as it relates to to Kubernetes You've also got the challenge of deployment or upgrade So thinking of costs and thinking of how much you have up and running Can you do a rolling upgrade experience or rolling deployment of your app? Can you reroute traffic and drain? Well, you know terraform and others are doing a great job of paving the ecosystem in the environment But that they too story of if it's up and running How do I control that or how has that done an effective and cost manner is still something that's evolving the community And there's a problem yet to be solved and those are kind of the higher level concerns that an app developer or platform engineer Really cares about doing well because that's a huge cost impact if that's not managed and as you already talked about Developer experience and I wanted to go there so I would appreciate if you can talk about that What exactly do you mean by developer experience developer experience and also once again in today's word how I mean once again developers Experience is not just about you know getting the right muffin that developers write it's about a lot of other things as well So talk about what does it mean and once again? How does it play in making companies more cost efficient? Yeah, so I think we think about a developer experience there developers are really looking for how do I leverage what exists? So there's a discovery element of what applications it's already what API is what libraries? How do I get lift from the company I work within and then there's also the How do I know what choices are sanctioned or approved? So there's an element of discovery discovery of what exists and discovery of common practices and concerns And that's a really important part of the developer experience that can cut down Speed can improve developer efficiency because if that's really clear and I have one place to discover that I'm able to make those decisions and move on if I'm not I can spend a lot of time in that discovery So that the discovery piece of making developers effective is really important The next step is as I need something How do I get that in a self-service way if I have to create a ticket and wait for someone to provision and respond to that ticket? That's gonna that's gonna eat up on my time and that's not efficient for either party Those those receiving the ticket or the person creating it So we talk about the developer experience what we're really talking about is is the discovery of what exists and the self-service capability and The definition of what's approved and not approved associated with that Catherine Thank you so much for taking time out today and talk about this topic and as well I would love to have you back on the show. Thank you Always a pleasure spot now. Thank you