 We're going to dig into the electricity sector now and we're going to have Commissioner Potter give us a brief status update on selected dockets. And this will be followed by a discussion that looks at the roadblocks in four different buckets. We're going to look at regulatory policy challenges. We're going to look at equity and community challenges, technical and cost. For the panelists, we have, we have, so for the moderator, we have from Tyus Ripp, Plain Age Department of Electrical Engineering. We have David Bissell from Kauai Island Utility Cooperative. We have Scott Seuth from Pine Electric. Brian Kealoha from Kauai Energy and John Cole from Kauai Natural Energy. These are the highest-profile dockets that we have at the Commission in getting the most national attention, I believe, except for those who have distributed energy resources. So I'm going to talk a little about our integrated grid planning, which is with the HECO companies and their initiative that's underway. I'll talk about the performance-based regulation docket, microgrid docket, and the distributed energy resources DR grid services docket. So I'm going to kick off with my favorite docket. This is the performance-based regulation docket in April of 2018. The Commission opened this proceeding. Subsequently, the legislature and the governor signed into law the Act 5, which focused on the Ratepayer Protection Act. That is, and the act and the proceeding focused on, it's focused on breaking the link between capital investments and utility revenues. So what it's trying to do is create the utility of the future. A utility that's going to focus on customer service, resiliency, grid investment, decentralized renewable resources, and really try and transform the way that they do business in order to help their integrity financially, as well as serve the residents of the life. So the proceeding began. We opened it with, by bifurcating the proceeding, the first phase of proceeding focused on the existing regulatory structure that's in place and tried to identify various aspects of that regulatory structure that needed to be addressed, modified, or improved in order to help transform that utility business model. In the second phase, which is currently underway, we are focused on the actual mechanisms that are going to be utilized in the final decision in order and basically those include the revenue adjustment mechanism as well as the performance incentive mechanism. The commission issued an order in the second quarter of 2019, which closed the first phase of the proceeding and we began deliberations with the working groups in quarter two and quarter three of 2019. The working groups are a group of stakeholders. There's a great representation of Hawaii entities that are participating in that process and providing feedback. It's been an extraordinary opportunity and very interesting to watch the work and the collaboration within those stakeholder meetings. So that we anticipate that the working groups will submit the proposals for phase two in May of 2020. We'll hold evidentiary hearings in October of 2020 and then we'll actually issue a decision in order in December of 2020. And this is really the most transformational, I believe, in the energy landscape docket that we have in the energy landscape right now because it really is focused on identifying, changing the regulatory structure to reward the utilities for how they perform rather than just for the capital investments. And so it's going to be a pretty big overhaul of how we regulate the utility in our relationship with the utility and the utility's relationship with the customer. So the next is our distributed energy resources and DR docket. This is our demand response grid services. This is a recently opened docket and it is we currently have an arena's in place and we're setting up a procedural schedule. So we're actually just beginning this initiative. We opened a new docket and closed the 2014 DR docket because we felt that it was imperative for the commission to evaluate grid services and distributed energy resources in one proceeding because we can evaluate time varying pricing, different programs and services for both DR and for distributed energy resources and also to look at different types of services that we can provide to customers utilizing the different infrastructure that's going into place right now. So this proceeding will continue likely for many years. It's not going to be a one size fits all. We open and close it. It's going to be numerous iterations as we design programs and different rates and tariffs that best serve our customers here in Hawaii. Next is the integrated grid planning proceeding. This began in 2018 and the initiative was in the proceeding was opened to respond to the company's need to integrate the integrated resource plan, not the grid planning, but the resource plan which is at the bulk power system and the distribution system planning. And the reason that was imperative was the distribution system has seen such high penetrations of photovoltaics, of distributed photovoltaics. It is a disservice to not incorporate that into the planning process. And this planning process has actually gained a lot of public attention and national attention as well. We're one of the first utility, our utility is one of the first in the country that's undertaking this type of initiative. And it's very comprehensive and it is something that's actually taking several years. It began in 2018 as I mentioned and the company submitted a work plan in that year. And the commission approved it in 2019 work began with the stakeholder deliberation which is the working group, something effort and that's currently underway. However, the companies did submit a released soft launch RFP that's attempting to gain some of the, incorporate some of the knowledge about what's available as resources out in the industry that they can bring into the distribution and the integrated grid planning. That also includes non-wires alternatives. So that's very exciting for us because we want to see the different types of resources that can serve this without just being infrastructure that the utility is investing in. We anticipate that the working group will continue meeting through 2020 about quarter two and then the companies will begin their analytical process. For at least six months we anticipate a plan provided to the commission in about mid-2021 and then we'll have to reiterate that process. This also is not a one and done kind of initiative. They'll will accept or deny that initial proposal or plan and then once it's approved they'll continue doing operations so that we can really build a resilient grid that's interconnected and thinking holistically about how we deliver energy both at a decentralized plan or either at a bulk power system plan. So utility scale, distributed scale, it's all going to be included and thought about within this plan. And third, we have the microgrid tariff. We're the first state in the country and almost the world but in the country that's actually developing a microgrid service tariff this initiative has taken place over the last year. We have working groups that are working on the details right now. We anticipate the working groups will submit a draft tariff proposal in February of 2020 and then a final in the following month in March and then we expect a decision by the commission in around June or July which would accept that proposal. One of the things that's interesting about this is we really tried to tease out the types of microgrids that are necessary in the state of Hawaii. We focused on resiliency and outreach response first and foremost and that being the greatest need and also under the direction of the legislature and the governor and Act 200. This is really intended to address some of these long transmission lines that lead across the island away from the centralized load generation. So we need different mechanisms in order to produce load in a decentralized way so that we're able to have a more resilient communities out there that are able to produce their own energy and perhaps service their neighbors within a connected microgrid. And this is, I'm leaving you with our spaghetti chart of the regulatory landscape here in Hawaii. There's actually a couple of things missing from this but there's a ton of things that we're working on in order to advance energy here in Hawaii and try to transform the way that we think about how energy should be produced, how we compensate the utility, how we serve our customers, we build resiliency, we think about the renewable portfolio standards and there's a whole host of items up there that really are contributing to that kind of effort. So look forward to talking with any of you after this if you're interested. Thank you very much. So we're going to kind of rotate through the topics, the sort of subtopics that we had here and I think each of you have responses to that and then we'll try to have a quick discussion about it. We don't have super long. So I guess beginning with the roadblocks and the regulatory and policy area would any of you like to say something about that? No. I would like to regulate the utilities here and the commissioners so I'm sure they're really excited about talking about that. I'll start. I almost feel obligated to say something. But as Commissioner Potter just laid out for you, there's a tremendous amount of activity that's happening on the regulatory side of the house to modernize our regulatory system. We at Hawaiian Electric, along with Dave on Kauai, we are full bore trying to move forward to modernize the electric system from the actual infrastructure perspective. And to go along with that, we have to modernize our regulatory system, which also by the way includes how we as a company do business. So we're also modernizing our own business practices because that goes hand in glove with this performance based regulation document. So I think that the ship has already been launched. And as we look forward in 2020 and beyond, it's going to be absolutely critical that we are paying attention to all of the very important objectives we're trying to achieve. And Commissioner Potter, you just nailed everything down there, right? It's at the end of the day, you know, for me as the electric company guy, it's about what do we need to make sure that we can maintain reliable and affordable and clean energy service so that all of the businesses, all of our customers can continue to live their lives and also to thrive in their lives. If we don't hit all of those, then we are ultimately failing in what our obligations are. And I think that's a collective obligation on all of our parts. So it's a big task, but it's absolutely imperative that we modernize all of these things in parallel. Otherwise it's just not going to work. I'll add a little bit to that as a former commissioner. I'm more on the technical side now, but I agree with Scott that a lot of the things that, when I was a commissioner, I wished would happen in the process of happening now. And that includes things like the performance based ratemaking docket to go ahead and align the utilities and incentives and profit motives with our energy goals better than they are right now under the old model. And secondly, I think the pricing aspects, I mean, we've kind of, I think, been really behind on that, but the commission is addressing that now with DDR and market track type issues. So I think those two things, like Scott said, are on their way to being developed and will help us solve a lot of the issues that we're going to be faced with. So I'm going to add from a little bit different perspective as Carl had shared and showed on his graph just what we need to get to for the 100% goal and the energy efficiency component. I mean, there was two parts, right? There was the programs and the quality energy is running and then there's that other piece that others deliver. I mentioned energy codes, appliance standards. So when we look at it from a policy perspective, there's only so much that incentives and programs are going to be able to do to get us to where we need to go and even listening to what's happening in North Carolina. They have a more aggressive energy efficiency goal than we even have here in the state of Hawaii. So as we look forward, we have to be really careful when we talk about the standards and the policies that we set forward that we are doing things that are progressive and pushing the envelope forward to what we need to do to hear our goals because we can't do it just through programs and incentives and I think a lot of the conversation that's happening now in opposition for things that are pushing for energy efficiency, talk about customer choice and there's a lot of things where we don't give customer choices on, whether it be seat belts, there's talk about baking. So one of these things, as we look at what the real customer choice is, especially in new development, are the homeowners really making that choice or are the developers making that choice worried about first costs rather than long-term costs? So that's one of the things we have to, if we're going to be serious about it, we have to develop the policies to really support that. You're good. From our side on Kauai, we've actually been very pleased with the transition and the commission. Years ago, we were always complaining about speed and certainty on dockets and particularly on renewable energy project approvals. We're always working, almost every project done in this state is being done with a partner. A lot of them are mainland high-tech companies doing innovative things and one of their concerns is they don't want to come mess around and spend time and resources and not get approval. I have the approval to drag out of a long period. We're seeing real progress in that. Approvals are coming through really quickly. I don't think there's much fear of good projects being turned down or unnecessarily delayed, so we've been quite pleased with that change. I think that's part of the modernization and refocus the commission. Yeah, actually, I feel like everyone's being really nice because I'm sitting here. So, we recognize at the commission that our regulatory structure right now and the way that we actually conduct ourselves and the way that we regulate the utilities is antiquated. And so there's certainly ways, for example, the last round of PPAs that came in from the phase two with Hawaiian electric companies. They submitted eight renewable projects to us on December 31st of 2018. And internally we said, you know what, we're not going to be the bottleneck at all in this, so everybody just buckle down. Let's get this done by the time of Hawaii Energy Conference comes, and I think that was March 24th. So we cleared six PPAs in three months where it normally took, for one PPA, it took six months at a minimum. And so with the idea of if we want to move in this renewable energy space, the commission has to be responsible for fast tracking this stuff because we put those pressures on the utilities to get there, we have to be equally as motivated to get this stuff done. And I think that that's really a shift in the way that things have happened and we've had to actually retool our processes for evaluating how we look at these types of projects in order to move that quickly. You know, before we go through very lengthy processes in order, an information request in order to determine whether the project was right, justified, you know, in the public interest, and we still conduct very thorough analysis, but because we've now moved into a competitive bidding process and that's how we've asked the utilities to conduct these types of procurements for renewables, then that's exactly... We don't necessarily need to do those types of deep digging in order to evaluate whether the projects are prudent and in the public interest, whether they're reasonably priced, because the market has already determined that they are. So that's a way that we're still partnering with each of the utilities to determine what makes sense, how can we move Hawaii that more quickly and performance-based regulation is the same thing. How can we as regulators allow the utility to move into the utility of the future? They need to be nimble. They need to have freedom to be innovative. They need to be able to reflect on their business practices and ensure that they're getting... that they're meeting the goals through methods that are the best for them. And we need to stand back and allow... give them some flexibility to do that. And so that's a different way of... It's not micromanaging anymore. We're actually trying to say, okay, here's the rules to the game. And basically, let's see how you do when you perform and then we can compensate you on those type of that performance rather than it just being... it being something like, we're giving you a rate of return and make investments so that we are able to update the profits. So really important for the utility to... for the commission to make changes structurally and the way that we do things in order to help get us to 100% renewable, focus on climate change, looking at greenhouse gas reduction, et cetera. Okay, sorry, can I just... Sure. If I could just add, you know, something that you just said, Jenny is so critical, which is, you know, we are the regulated party and of course, as a regulated person, you always hope for more freedom and more flexibility. You know, tell us what the expectations are but then step back and allow us to figure out how do we best meet those expectations and you're absolutely right. I think in the past, you know, there have been times where, you know, it's almost as if regulation has gone in, you know, ebbs and flows. Sometimes there has been more flexibility but then at some point there is a sense that, well, you know what, we have to get more into the details of how are these guys running the business, are they truly doing what they should be doing and then we start increasing the level of oversight and it can get into almost like a micromanagement situation. So then, hopefully, I think where we are today is we are now on the upswing where we all recognize that, you know what, that is extremely inefficient. You end up having spending so much of your time just going through process and process and process versus being able to execute and I think that's something that I'm very excited and really looking forward to which is as we move forward to the PBR framework and then also all of the other things that we're working on that we will be able to focus on execution and meeting the expectations. I mean, we still have to be held accountable, obviously, but having that flexibility is going to be so critical to being able to be successful not only ourselves but our developers and our customers. All right, so I'm going to try to move it along. We've got three more topics in 15 minutes, so I'm accumulating questions but I think I'm going to save them till the end so we can get some coverage here. So I guess the next topic up is equity and community and to some extent, some way I see that is there can be sort of a tension between, well, one example is we want to bring customers in providing services back to the grid but that can create tension. One customer's profit is another customer's cost and that can create difficulty sometimes in moving ahead. Are there issues like that that we need to worry about? Are there obstacles and challenges that we need to overcome? Feel free to move quickly too if there's not much to say. Yeah, absolutely, particularly on distributed generation. I think we're moving again positively on that where there's more of a recognition that just because it's not utility, from the utility it's not necessarily great for everybody and I think the great making starting to catch up and the analysis is catching up with trying to really properly evaluate, properly cost things so that we don't have that inequality between a lot of times the wealthy and the less wealthy taking advantage of the system so I think we're moving positive in that direction really at the, maybe not the total lead in the United States, pretty close. From the Hawaii energy perspective, I think as we try to work with Hawaii's families, particularly impacted by the heavy energy burdens that we all face, whether it's electricity, gas, you name it, there's certain things that are within their control and others that are not from an efficiency standpoint. A lot of times those that are the most impacted have the highest energy burden, they're renters so their ability to again make choices and decisions around the equipment that they're using is very limited so that's a real challenge and I think for me personally and I'm excited Scott's here as well, I mean when we look at who are a lot of the disadvantaged communities, it's the native Hawaiians and as we look to move forward and push towards our 100% clean energy goals, we also address there have been some inequities in the past whether it's some of the distributed generation that's happened or others and by getting to a more equitable place means there may be a little more inequity to get there and not everything is going to be fair. The other thing I wanted to add from an energy use perspective that we find very interesting but also concerning is that if we're going to be able to hit our clean energy goals and based on the projections that were shown earlier that was the basis of the Hawai'i Clean Energy Initiative, a lot of that didn't factor into increased utilization of EV at the time, also didn't factor in just what's happening with the climate and how many more people are installing air conditioning. So we're seeing now another inequity that's coming to have and have nots who has air conditioning and who doesn't and what happens there and the last part that I would say is some of the early adopters to PV and I'm one of them. I was a NEM PV adopter. I put in AC and I probably use more today as the head of Hawai'i Energy who's supposed to be using less than I did six years ago and it's a real challenge. So even if I'm having that struggle with my family, I know that there's a lot of people who have put in PV for the right reasons but a lot of areas are going in the wrong direction. So our pricing and our tariffs have to really evolve to a place where we're bringing some of that equity back. I'll comment on this question from a slightly different area which is the current issues that we're starting to see more and more of in terms of community concerns about renewable energy development projects in their neighborhoods. I think that let's use the wind farm, the Puomakani as an example. We all as those in the industry, we know that you can only site wind farms where you have the wind resource. And even then it can't just be sort of windy. It's got to be a certain standard of consistency and strong in order to make it a feasible wind project. So that really drives those types of projects in a certain location. But more and more we're starting to see that it doesn't really matter if it's a wind farm or a solar farm or like on Dave's Island, hydro we are starting to see where renewable energy projects are being lumped into just the overall issues of an infrastructure project. And you know folks have very real concerns about proximity to their houses, visible impacts and so on. And I think that as we go forward from a policy perspective we are really going to have to think more creatively about how do you address these issues and perhaps the old way of putting it on a developer to say alright you have to engage with the community, you have to figure out is there a community benefits package you can offer. I mean yes that is still a potential tool but I think we have to do better from a policy perspective and actually it may even trace back to how do we go forward in deciding what are the resources that are needed who gets to participate in that discussion and having that type of engagement actually feed into the RFP process. Right now we issue RFPs and it's all sources all technology types and it's pretty much left to developers to go find the locations to put these projects in. And then that's when typically the communities are engaged with. I think we're going to have to rethink that and how do we up front the engagement and participation. Amen. So I'm going to lump together the last two here because they're kind of related. Every technical problem has a solution if you have enough money. So are there sort of technical or cost obstacles that you're seeing in trying to move ahead towards these deep decarbonization goals we're talking about? I'll take the first shot at this but first I want to say I agree with Scott I think the biggest challenge to getting where we need to go is going to be citing community acceptance or lack thereof and we really need to find new ways to approach it up front and get by because especially like on Oahu with the amount we need and the limited land space the biggest challenge to be faced. On the technical side I kind of prepared this question specifically I'm not going to use a slide but the general concept is that I think we need to find some solutions to the grid services that we need to assure grid reliability and there's a lot of work going on in this area the grid services docket and things like that but there's certain services that the grid needs and traditionally all of those services were able to be provided by thermal generation because we're moving more and more towards renewables particularly the intermittent resources wind and solar and those thermal units retiring something has to step in to be able to provide those services and a lot of them can be provided by other things there's definitely technical potential there for those to be provided but we're not quite there yet particularly things short grid strength type services inertia and then those are the quick responding things and then on the other side just general capacity batteries can do an awful lot of it there's other options like DR and charging EVs and flywheels and synchronous condensers and things like that but all of it needs to be assessed and some of it still needs to be developed and I won't go into any more details but there's just going to be some challenges in that area and people need to understand I hear a lot of people seem to have the impression that if we put enough PV and batteries on we'll get there and we don't have to worry about it but there's definitely issues that have to be considered and overcome with filling some of the gaps that will be there with that type of mix and as a grid that's operating at 100% renewable multiple days now last week we were five hours at 100% renewable the technical challenges can be overcome but following up on John's point solar's not the answer in total we're already looking past solar and going we can't have our old grid we're not going to get close to 100% just on PV and batteries long duration batteries are still very expensive and really the technology's not there to move past four or five hours the real outside is probably eight hours you can do economically to some degree of economically and we get long periods of rain and cloudy weather and we're starting to do this on Kauai like how do we move past 80% 100% renewable and we're working hard at investigating pump storage hydro where you can get massive amounts of storage 100 hours, 200 hours of storage versus four or eight the problem is how do you value that how do we look at it if it comes up more expensive than PV if you can get PV for 8 cents with batteries and it might cost 15 cents with the same thing with water storage that can move you past it's a different technology but we're increasingly saying well we think we got to do that if we're going to be serious about reaching 100% because the battery technology may evolve but it's rather doubtful that you'll be able to get the vast amount of storage that we need so I think long explanation trying to shorten it as we move further and further some of these easy technologies with the battery we're going to have to stretch further and get into more they may be more expensive, they may be harder but we're rapidly moving throughout the state to that I think Oahu's got real challenges with its genocide with land and how much more solar can they put down after this next round of projects so we're all going to start I think some of the low hanging fruits have been harvested and we're getting into tougher and tougher technical problems so I've got a lot of questions here we've been given a five minute extension I just have to be kind of selective with the question so I'm going to start with one which was kind of actually sets us up for the next panel but going down the line to each of you is your organization dedicating any policy resources to extending EV benefits the writer said that's very key to extending the curve so what are you doing or are you doing anything to encourage EV I actually will probably defer to Brian to talk about the EV rebate program that the legislature so kindly gave us several hundred thousand dollars to basically to encourage installation of level 2 EV chargers and Brian's actually facilitating that program so why energy has taken over that for us I'm excited so he can talk about that sure I'll touch on it real quickly it's a small part of really Hawaiian electrics electrification of transportation roadmap but obviously one of the barriers that was identified through that is just the EV charging infrastructure so again as commissioner Potter said it's exciting to see that there's some state taxpayer resources that are being put towards this four hundred thousand dollars in total so that's great but it's probably just a drop in the bucket the infrastructure that's needed not only in the cost of the actual charging systems but as well as just all the upgrades that need to happen to install EV charging stations so it's a great first start I think part of the China plan that was approved by the commission earlier last year I guess in 2019 now did create a little more runway for Hawaii Energy to be participating in EOT efforts as it makes sense to combine with again PICO's roadmap and carbon reduction so it is an expansion of the services that we are doing so as Commissioner Potter and Brian mentioned electric transportation is a huge part of where we see the future not only for transportation getting transportation decarbonized but also to help us decarbonize our system I'm going to say probably everybody knows that the secret sauce is if you can get more good load during the daytime the more we can take that renewable energy that's produced during the daytime and think about it from the perspective I'm living in a decoupled system where the state has these very aggressive energy efficiency goals we're trying to reduce the load if anything and meanwhile at the same time we still need to pay for the overall electric system Richard is this your phone? I wasn't sure who I was being recorded by but anyway so if we can build that electric charging infrastructure more quickly more aggressively I know there's always going to be this issue of well at what point are you getting too far ahead of the market but I absolutely do think that we have to be more aggressive so what is the role that the state plays the whole energy of course we have our roadmap when we talk to developers of condominiums or a new construction one of the challenges that they face is if I'm going to be mandated that I have to provide X number of stalls would be charging that can be hugely expensive so where is the is there any financial support that can be provided to them or another discussion that they often ask us is with utility what role do you folks have to provide that make ready infrastructure you know PUC, consumer advocate I see Dean standing in the back in the room right where they're always going to be working with us to decide at what point does it make sense for the utility to pick up those types of infrastructure costs if this is a hugely important state policy then I think it may end up being where we have to have the discussion about what the role the utility can play to provide that make ready infrastructure so that it can make things happen a lot more quickly I guess the question though was are we dedicating resources to help think about these policy issues the absolute answer for us is absolutely yes it's very important we have to keep the momentum going with transportation I'll do a quick on Kauai yes but we're so different than Oahu and all the other islands are a whole different outlook on electric vehicles and we don't have the big condos that make it difficult for people to buy a vehicle and charge them we haven't had an overwhelming push for charging infrastructure in Kauai most people are charging them at home at night time Ben will talk about it in the next session but we have a real good relationship with the county and some other organizations working on potential rebates and ways what we're concerned with is we want to incentivize people not to charge right during our peak demand period so from a utility side we're more interested in giving incentives to set up chargers that will stop charging during 8 to 10 o'clock at night during our peak and we are actually getting them to the people for the ability to charge I just have to add because I see Mitch standing there that hydrogen vehicles are electric vehicles too if we can figure out how to make the hydrogen economically and it can be used for those fuel cell vehicles and maybe we can convert some gas stations and don't need a lot of extra infrastructure but that could be part of the solution thanks John so since we're at the capitol and we have a PUC commissioner here do any of you have can each of you give sort of one thing that would be on your wish list for a new law or a new order from the commission that would help us move ahead in meeting our objectives I'm all ears we're really not questioning for anything we like certainty and really the more from a co-ops side the more we're left alone the happier we are that's kind of we're not pushing for anything I would just reiterate a couple of things I said earlier the alignment of the utilities incentives with the state policy goals and some really smart pricing programs for customers to help them to do the same thing achieve the energy goals of the state through pricing and economic decisions I wouldn't add much to my first answer around some of the policies that are needed I think from an energy efficiency perspective I think probably what I neglected to say when I was sharing that is that energy efficiency already is extremely cost effective especially when you look at the life cycle cost versus first cost and I think that's where we get hung up so it's not as if these policies will have a economic a negative economic impact actually it's going to have a positive economic impact and thus kind of advocating for the expansion of a lot of what's on the books in particular we got the energy code finally passed at a state level two and a half years ago we're working through the counties the different counties are going through their stages but it's a heavy lift every three years if we're going to do this and we got to find a way to just be adopting new codes right when they come out so my wish would be beyond just energy we have a challenge in this state I think where we have so many good well intention state policies but there's not really a good way that I see where people have been able to integrate them well together so land use policy housing development environmental protection cultural energy transportation all of these policies are starting to really butt up against each other and it's hard to try and execute and implement well on any one of those because you just cannot do that in a silo and we need to if anything it may not be a single law but there needs to be some sort of mechanism where periodically you have to take a look at these policies and recalibrate given what you see happening in other areas and as a state what are the highest priorities of this state that we need to pay attention to I mean we all live and breathe in the energy space but we've all been in those discussions where somebody says you know what you folks want to raise rates because you want to modernize the grid and so on but I can barely afford to pay my rent and I can't even you know think about having my kids get new clothes for school or whatever it is and boy what do I say to that right so I think that that has to have I mean in this building as well as in our other areas that's where we really need to have that good force discussion to help people prioritize all right well thanks a lot I've got a lot of more good questions here and more spinning in my head but unfortunately we're out of time so I'd encourage all of you to ask our panelists questions afterwards if you can catch them in the hall or in the auditorium and I'd like to ask you all to join me in giving them a big thank you