 Blockchain technology, I remember my guest, I'll introduce to them shortly. He had a conversation about stories that the duck web for extrading, etc. And interesting enough, these guys are like the back-end holders. And I was telling them, I'm calling them get keepers. So you're definitely going to get into the conversation about digital currency risks and regulations. And joining me live in the studio, I've got Adedeji Owonibi. He's a blockchain forensic investigator and a senior partner at A&D Forensics. And then his counterpart is Sewa Wycliffe. He's a cryptocurrency investigator. Good morning to you guys. Good morning. Alright, let me begin with you. You said Deji. A lot of people would prefer to call you Deji. Yeah, Deji. Alright, so just a brief history of you shortly, how you got into this space. And now it has led you to have this interview right here. Okay, so thank you very much for the opportunity. My name is Adedeji Owonibi. And so I used to work in commercial banks in my earlier lives. I've worked in like four commercial banks in Nigeria. And afterward, of course, I moved in to start a firm called A&D Forensics, where we do mostly forensic consulting. We help, also, people track things that, you know, they want to know what actually happens. We're doing that for international organizations. A few international organizations, Safety Children, you said, you know, mentioned a few of those. And most times when we normally ask to follow the money, if you may, you know, check what is really happening, you know, if maybe after a particular donation, a particular fund and all that, you need to know what happened, did it get to where the money was meant to get through. We had this particular experience a couple of years back where we're trying to check out one and some of the money found their way into Bitcoin. And nobody within our team have an understanding on how to investigate it or even knew anything about it. And so we knew there's a challenge with what we do, and then we have to open our game by going to learn more about it. So then I've been pushing and trying to check how I can learn that and I've been to the cybersecurity market in the U.S. where we did certified cryptocurrency forensic investigators course. It was also very new with few law enforcement in the U.S. and we took that. And when I of course got certified, I came back to Africa to make sure, you know, we change everything now to digital asset forensics which was not existing anywhere within the African show. And you started in Nigeria? Yeah, we started out in Nigeria. But of course we're touching Zambia, Tanzania, Rwanda and now in Kenya. So you're branching to almost all African countries? Yeah, because this is a fundamental problem. There's a new money in town which is the digital asset. And the bad actors are also taking opportunity that it is new. And it's an arbitrage for law enforcement because they don't know it. So that is the presumption they have. So they move quickly. Like, you know, criminals move quickly to embrace technologies that can help them hide their tracks. And so they're all there. And so we're trying, we've been empowering law enforcement. We've been working with law enforcement anti-corruption agencies across, especially for example in Nigeria. The body is called EFCC. And so a lot of training have gone in there and now they're able to confiscate a lot of these stolen assets or maybe hacks, you know, all the cyber criminals that will possibly convert the normal proceed of crime to digital assets. So now they have capability to investigate them and also confiscate those assets. And so we want to make sure that this is empowered across African law enforcement. Because again, they're still struggling with the technology of normal money before. Now it is a newer one. So it is a challenge, again, for both regulators. So I've been engaged with regulatory policies around the world, for example. And of course, within Africa, I've been contributing to most of that within the security exchange, within the central bank. So I'm a constant trainer through the central bank in my country. And we do those trainings every year. And so we're also doing, I think we've done a bit in Zambia also with the Foundation Intelligence Unit. And we're looking to do something like that for Kenya because it's highly needed here. Yeah. And now we've had so many stories of people being scammed and whatnot. And it's interesting, your counterpart has expertise on how to investigate the rest. So definitely, Wycliffe, you can go ahead and share a little bit history of yourself. Well, thank you so much. And also for this wonderful opportunity. Just as you've said, my name is Seo Wycliffe. And I'm currently a certified cryptocurrency investigator and also a compliance specialist as well. So my history into joining the crypto world began back then when I used to participate in the forex trading. And that's almost like five years ago. So through that, I came into contact on matters of cryptocurrencies. And from there, I could see people like complain left, right, and center in matters of scams. So in my mind, I was like, do we really have like the gatekeepers who can be able to help these people to avoid the escalating issues in terms of scams? So that's actually what's now motivated me to dive deep into trying to understand the crypto space and also try to get the needed certification. And also with my background in community and security studies, I think that also comes in handy to help me create that much-needed awareness, especially for those people who want to invest into the crypto space. Maybe you can also start from defining cryptocurrency because there's a big confusion between Bitcoin for extruding cryptocurrency and even the whole blockchain spectrum. You can start by defining that for a person who has no awareness what cryptocurrency means. Okay, thank you so much. So probably, I know people talk about cryptocurrency. Some also talk about digital currencies. So allow me to put it into segments. So when you talk about, for example, digital currencies, we are basically talking about the digital money. And this digital money, it's usually, they are used as a means of payment, but they normally operate in an electronic format. So they are totally different from physical cash, for example, with the Kenya shillings or the coins which you normally have, given that with this one, they are in digital format. So with digital currencies, they are categorized into different segments. We have what are called the central bank digital currencies which are regulated by the central banks of a particular country. Right now, if you look across the world, we have been seeing most governments trying to find out how they can be able to incorporate the central bank digital currencies in order to supplement the fiat currencies which they have. So under the digital currencies, again, we now have the cryptocurrencies which are now virtual currencies. And then from there now, we have another segment which is called the stablecoins. And the stablecoins with that one, it has been pegged with the fiat currency so that it can be used to caution volatility which normally happens a lot when it comes to the normal currencies you are using. When you say fiat currency, somebody doesn't understand what fiat currency is. Is this the normal money? Yes, let me keep it a little bit not technical but fiat currency basically means the normal money that you are using, the Kenya shillings note or the Kenya shillings coins. Yes. Nice, hopefully in the pattern. But now, Digi, why do you come in this conversation in the whole blockchain spectrum? So we decided to call our expertise around compliance, rigs and just, of course, regulatory guidance. We give those supports there. So for different cryptocurrency, like you mentioned, the difference between that and your normal Kenya shillings and some people will argue when you say, oh, this is money, but in digital form, then they say, okay, MPSR is digital. Right. So it was a difference. And so the difference is now the underlying technology that powers the cryptocurrency. Yes, MPSR is digital and if you have your Kenya shillings, your bank app is also digital. Right. What is different from the cryptocurrency because of the underlying technology. So the technology has some few inherent features that made it very unique and that's why we have, a lot of people mention blockchain, blockchain, blockchain. Yes, blockchain, it powers a lot of things and money is one and wherever you have money, it is more popular. So people go to where that is popular. But of course you can use that technology to power a lot of things that are a problem in Africa, for example. Right. So there's a technology, I'm involved with, a particular solution and the newspaper said instead of sending your aid to Africa, you better up bond aid money than give to Africa. Yes. Why? Because they believe that donors' money, when they come here, they don't get to the last mile. Right. They don't get to the vulnerable people. So one beautiful thing about the blockchain technology is that you can use it for transparency. So whatever happens on it, I don't have power to alter it, not the government have power to alter it. Nobody can alter it and everybody can see it. So that feature of that transparency is great. Yes. And that is why you can use it for money, you can use it for a solution like, a distribution directly to last mile. Yes. And now, so the donors will no longer say, it is better you bond your aid money than give to Africa, but now they can see the way the donor money is going because they have a transparent technology in blockchain to enable them to see that. Right. Another very beautiful inherent feature is the security. Right. So I... Which is the most important part. Yes. So when I was doing a presentation to the central bank. Right. And I asked a very basic question and I said, the central bank here have a lot of security, cybersecurity professional and cybersecurity experts and what they're doing is to protect the system. Yes. I said, but have you ever wondered why we have trillions of US dollars on Bitcoin network? Right. But they don't have a single cybersecurity specialist taking care of that system. And the whole global hackers that need money, just left it alone and refused to hack it. Right. Why that? And just because of the inherent security of the blockchain system. Right. It's difficult for them to hack to get off that money. Yes. When they don't have a headquarters, they don't have cybersecurity specialist looking at that money. It's operating 24 hours, you know, but is clear and because of the security of that blockchain technology. Because when you want to do that, you spend billions of US dollars to be able to do that. So if you have that, you rather will not hack it. Right. Just leave it alone. Right. So that kind of security, most of the traditional IT systems we have are migrating to blockchain because of this inherent security. Why the security you may possibly ask is that you don't have a single place you go to to hack it. It is distributed around the world. Right. So if I want to hack Bitcoin blockchain, possibly we have to go around more than 40,000 or 50,000 different networks. And I don't even know where they are. So that decentralized nature gave it that inherent security. And the data is not stored in one place. It's replicated across these global networks. So when you take up one that you are aware of, you have thousands and thousands elsewhere you don't know, and the data is replicated equally. Right. So of course, you know, there's no network failure. So if one is down, you have thousands also still on. So meaning you cannot come any day and say, well, I want to do a transaction on cryptocurrency or the network is down, never will that happen. Yes. So if you look at those features and what you have put on top of it, you cannot delete. So it is transparent. So if somebody want to change any figure, maybe for a transaction to add up maybe a zero for Florida's calm, you simply will be open to everybody that is operating that network to know you're just doing that. Right. And it's not even going to be possible because again, there's something we call consensus agreement. Right. So if you're adding anything, everybody on the network have to agree that that thing has to be on you. So that kind of transparency is what powers that money. So if you check it, if you want anything now, if you want any information, people will just tell you, Google it because information is available to all of us. Right. But money for a long time have not moved to the Internet. It's just moving now. Yes. And why can't money move to the Internet? Money can simply not move to the Internet because if I send you my picture, if I take a picture of my phone and I send it to you digitally, I still have a copy of that picture and you have a copy. Yes. So if it's money and I send you money and I still have a copy of that double-spending and money in inherent nature is that when I transfer it, you give me a value in exchange. So I don't have that money because I've spent it. Well, anything digital, you can have a copy. Right. And so every technology in the world has not been able to support money to come on top of it. Well, blockchain on its own, when you transfer money, it moves completely. I don't have a copy even though it's digital. And that is why now... But you still have the record of the transaction. You have record, but you don't have the actual money. But for the photo I gave you an example, when I sent you, I still have a copy. So that is why the blockchain technology is powering money because that double-spend problem has been solved. Right. And so money is gradually moving to the rail and now we're moving to a digital money era which is the digital currency we're talking about. All right. Interesting. So what are the stories on digital assets? Maybe in Africa so far, what are some of the opportunities for Africa now that you mentioned you extended from Nigeria to Rwanda and now Kenya. Also now for Kenya specifically, what are some of the opportunities that are there for young people in the blockchain space? Before we talk about the legal implications and also how to convert your assets into digital assets at large. Yeah, so I think it's the technology for young people. Right. Whether in Kenya, whether in Nigeria, whether in San Diego, the people that embrace it more, it's actually the young populace and it's simple. So it gives them, you know, real value because of its fluctuation. So it moves faster. Right. So they make more profit even though there's other risks. Like you say, we will discuss what those risks are. But young people, you know, because they are young, they are absolute risk takers. So the risks the young people will take and somebody in his 50s, 60s, you know, will be able to gamble with that. But young people are open to risks. And again, there's a lot of volatility. And most people tell me, oh, cryptocurrency is volatile and that's why I don't go there. I say, for me, that is why I go there because it is volatile. Yes. What it means is that if I have 10,000 Kenyan shilling, it can easily make me 20,000 Kenyan shilling because it's not stable. Right. But again, you can also bring down your Kenyan shilling lesser. But if you understand the market properly, you'll profit. So take, for example, there's someone I spoke to around 2020 during COVID. And you know, the financial market globally was crumbling. And so, of course, Bitcoin itself is not going to be left alone. So it came crashing down. And it left from $10,000 or there about to about $3,000 US. Yes. $3,000 plus. Right. So I call someone and I say, hey, this is the time to invest. Right. Because I know this particular level is not going to come any time near that particular region because of the disaster we had that time. And the person say, oh, Digi, just let me be, when it is time, you can explain this to me better. I say, no, just take opportunity of this. If you have $10,000, this is a time to invest. $10,000 is a lot. Right. Of course, he has that. He has Kenyan money. Yeah, he has that. He has that. He's a very... Right. So what he did was I was able to convince him, $10,000, I will buy three Bitcoin. Right. Three. Three. Of course, it's less than 3,000 plus. With $10,000, you will go three. And that same year, November to December, the same one went to, from that $3,000 in March, went to $65,000 US for a while. There's a lot. It's crazy. It doesn't make sense to anybody that understands finance. Nothing like that ever happened. It's just a time where there's a generational shift in wealth. Right. And it's for young people. So imagine an investment of $10,000 gives you, for each one, $65,000 cumulatively. Right. It's crazy. So that happens. But of course, that kind of a move, which I told the person, hey, why not sell too? Right. Right. And it sold to about $130,000 US dollars just for two. Right. An investment of $10,000. It does not happen. So any finance professional, it does not make sense. Right. But this is happening within the crypto space. And so people can easily, with the knowledge they have. Right. Because I studied it. You know, I have an MSC, Infinity Blockchain and cryptocurrency like you saw. Right. So professors took us through the economics and the fundamentals and the economy policy and monetary policy of Bitcoin and all. So when you understand it, so you have a deflationary nature. And so when young people understand it, they can better understand this terminology better. Right. They're reading it. They're going through. So it's an opportunity for them to build a well-off countless of young people when I speak to them. Right. You discover that, okay, maybe the government is not really concerned about them. Yes. Because of an economy that has no gate. Right. And they can enter and no restriction. Right. And they're making a lot of their living out of it. Absolutely. So those are the things. You know, they are in the risk, like you say. We'll talk about it later. Right. For you, Wycliffe, maybe what are the must-haves is just starting from scratch. Who wants to join that space? And maybe from where you sit and what you observed right in Kenya, there may be strides you've made in terms of even advancing in the cryptocurrency space. Well, thank you so much. First of all, allow me to congratulate the current government which you have in place. Okay. And the president has actually been advocating for internet penetration, especially to region switch which still lack access to internet. Yes. And the other day, I think it's two weeks ago when he made a comment and I mentioned about how the youth should take advantage of that and start looking towards opportunities which are within the digital space. Yeah. Let's do a remote ask. Exactly. I think there's a confusion there. But yeah, you can explain. They'll definitely get the picture. Exactly. My colleague has just mentioned about a lot of opportunities which we have within the digital space. Right. Now, I know for majority of the young people who are basically looking forward to investing in this space, number one, of course you need to have a fully functioning laptop or a computer. You also need to have a smartphone as, you know, for you when it comes to cryptocurrencies investing, the levels of entries, the barriers of entries are minimal as compared to when you want to invest probably in maybe a piece of land or where there's a lot of things which are needed. Yeah. So apart from that also, one needs to arm themselves with knowledge and information because you'll find that what basically leads majority of the young people who are diving into this space to fall into the hands of scum and to lose a lot of much money, it's because they have not been totaled, they have not exposed themselves to much needed education in order for you to probably invest wisely and also do it in a professional way. Right. So I think also you'll allow me just to touch on some of the risks involved in this particular space. Now, I'll break them still into around three so that people can be able to know some of the risks which are associated with the cryptocurrency space. Of course, we have got what are called the market risks and the market risks there you'll find what is called the market volatility. Right. And when a new person enters the market and do not have the needed skill or knowledge, they're exposing themselves to that market volatility of which if they don't know how to handle what is called risk management, they can even end up losing all of their entire investments. All right. Possibly maybe what could be happening there if they entirely lose their investment. Maybe trading wrongly or maybe hitting a wrong button. Exactly. Exactly. You can explain further. Yeah, exactly. So with market volatility, you'll find that there is a lot of changes in price movements. Flactuation. Flactuation happens very fast. So it basically needs somebody who has been trained in that area so that he can be able to understand what exactly happens so that now when this particular person is taking trading opportunities, he basically knows at what point he's supposed to be entering into his or her trades. Right. Also, another area which also... Is there a specific time? There's no specific time actually. You only just need to understand what happens in that space. All right. Understanding. Understanding. They know how. All right. So another area where we have got which poses strong risks is they're called the cybersecurity risks. Right. In that area, you'll find we have got cases of hacking. We've got cases of phishing attacks of which I know my colleague will be tackling on how we can, especially for those people who will be creating their wallets how they can go about it to make sure that their wallet is secure. Right. Also, we have got what are called the scams. Right. And with the scams, personally, I've been a victim of this, especially back then when I was entering to this particular space. So what happened? So I know being a youth like any other youth, we always have that tendency of wanting to get rich so quickly. Right. And we always lack that patience to learn and be able to wait for our investments to grow. Yes. So when I got introduced in this space, back then I also came across these numerous advertisements which normally have shown within the social media space. And then from there, I think, after investing my money, I was not able to get it back. Right. What happened? Did you try to do the wrong person? Yes. Of course, these are just wrong people who are basically masquerading as professionals. Yes. So they usually know how to entice, especially the new people who are basically entering this particular market, once you have invested your money with them, then all of a sudden it just disappears. Yes. And like three weeks ago, I was invited in one of the particular presentation. It was a business presentation. My friend just called me and told me, I said, I really want you to come and check something here for me. So when I entered that particular presentation and when it was happening, I could clearly see some of the red flags. Right. And immediately after that meeting, I just asked my friend, I'm wondering how comes majority of the people who are seated here can be able to listen to this presentation without noticing the red flags which are involved. Right. So what could you tell from the start? Exactly. The reason why, from my end, it was so easy to be able to identify the red flags is because at this particular moment I'm educated and at least I've been in that space so I am able to understand. Yes. So from that point, I was like, I know we have got so many Kenyans who are also finding themselves in this space whereby they are being invited in such kind of forums. They lack awareness. They don't even know what's happening. When they're being told, just bring your money, they're bringing it. And that's why what we will be doing also is to make sure that we create that need awareness and education so that they'll be able to understand whenever I come across this, this is a red flag or this is a sign of a... This is fake. This is legit. This is fake. This is legit. Right. Yes. And that touches also on forex trading. Exactly. Because I think that's why a lot of people have been scum, even for the ones I've interviewed here. Yes. They were scum, 10,000. Somebody posed like an expert, like you said, they gave them 10,000 Kenyans. Sure, sure. They disappeared. But then the one I interviewed, I think it was last year, I said, even Ned, there's a legal agreement sometimes you sign, even on the bank side as well. So I think that was the legit part when the bank was involved. Yes. And allow me just to mention one key area because I've seen it a little bit rampant right now, especially in Kenya. Right. There is this thing which is called ICO in full. It's called the initial coin offering. Initial coin offering is basically a replica of an initial public offering. I don't know whether you are well-versed with the initial public offering. Whenever a company is setting up their structures and they're looking for ways on how they can be able to raise money so that they can be able to reach out to the masses. And people give them some share so that they can be able to use exactly. You see now with that one, it's a little bit different because with the initial public offering, already the company has established itself. There are structures in place, physical location, and addresses. Right. But now when it comes to the crypto world, with the initial coins offering, remember this coin is not yet in the market. So the people were basically pushing to attract investors who can be able to bring their money. So it's something which people have not yet seen, people have not yet known how it's going to work out. So you find majority of those people who are pushing a lot of this initial coin offering, they are more or less like giving people hope that once you give us your money, then this coin starts to function in the market, then your returns will be doubled or quadrupled in return. Of which majority of the time, when you look at the history of the initial coin offering which we have been having in the market, most of them usually end up crashing. That's when they say I was scammed. That's why they say that I was scammed. So I really need to, probably especially for our viewers, to be so cautious, especially when players are coming into the space and they are telling them more about initial coin offerings. They really need to go through what is called, I don't know whether I'll be able, I'll be sounding a little bit technical, but we normally have what is called the white paper. So with the white paper what it normally documents, it documents the use cases of a particular coin or of a particular cryptocurrency. What are some of the solutions which this particular cryptocurrency will be providing? This is not a bot. This is not a bot. When you mentioned that, is this what people say I bought a bot and then I'm looking at the history of this bot. But I'm now seeing it as you're explaining. Exactly. So with that white paper, it has got all the detailed information about that particular cryptocurrency or about that particular project. Of which once an individual has gone through that, you also need to reach out, at least for professional experts who are well versed in that particular field who can also be able to give you the much needed advice before you probably put your money on their neck. Yes. Blindly. Blindly, yes. True. The upside is also very conspicuous as well as the downside. Maybe you can also talk about the risks and maybe also the legal implication on a starter. Thank you very much. Like my colleague just mentioned, you know, when people advertise things like that, I always tell them, who are the right people within your country that regulates activities like that? Right. So for Kenya, for example, I say go to the Capital Market Regulator, which is the authority that we're here. Are those people registered with them? Yeah. Also, they must be registered, but they should do it. They should do it. Yeah. If it's crypto or maybe you have an IPO from a company, you should be registered with them. By the CMA. So you should demand for a CMA certificate sometimes. Demand that. Demand that. Always. Always someone is asking you. For a CMA certificate. Yeah. So if anyone asks you, can you, because it went very viral. In fact, what he was talking about went to a peak in 2017. Right. And in 2017, at a click, people are raising billions of US dollars in few minutes. You know, because again now, the market is not only to Kenya. Right. If you are a Kenyan, doing that ICO, which is the initial coin offering. Yes. Is similar to initial public offer in the traditional market world. So if you have the stock exchange, for example here, you see, you know, the shares of companies are traded there. Right. And because those people have issued the share. And if you want to raise new capital, you go to CMA. Yes. They approve. You appoint banks that will collect it. Right. They supervise that process. So that's why I can say, oh, I need 2,000 shares in X company. Right. And I just give my share and I get that share. But you must be worth it first. Yeah, those companies are existing, right? Yes. Yeah, but for crypto, they don't have to exist, like he said. Right. All they would do is, and anybody can put that out. Right. It can be just me and him. Yeah. And we say, hey, so I just need to raise 10 million dollars. And we will raise it. Right. We just do paper. We do white paper. We write beautiful things there and promise so much that the talking is going to be doing. Right. You know, because he mentioned use cases. Yes. So people can craft use cases even they're not existing. Yes. And we will say, oh, in few years this project is going to go massive and quickly buy. Yeah. And when you put it on, uh-huh. globally everybody, you know, we have a universal money. Right. So they can collect any cryptocurrency. Yes. And they harvest all that. Right. And they simply disappear. Right. And so nobody is regulating them so you don't know who to ask. Yes. And so that is why we are... And that's a risk. That's why we say they have to be regulated. Yes. And why African countries now are coming out with regulation. Right. I understand. Kenya is also coming out with VAPs, what we call VAPs, virtual asset service providers. Right. To regulate all these activities. So you don't go to give anybody your money to get a part of a token if they are not registered by CEMI and licensed by CEMI to operate. Right. For example. So those are the guides that I think citizens should look out for. Right. Yeah. Right. That's an interesting and very integral part because right now, like you said, this conversation is literally picking up in Kenya. Yeah. I remember you mentioned the story of the president saying, you know, you only just have to sleep and press. Yeah. I saw the president, you know, it's a good joke on it. I saw him talking to a young man. Right. Who has generated a lot of money working online. Yes. And that's what a lot of people do. If you check, young people don't go to offices now. Right. You know, all you need is a laptop. True. You work for international companies. Right. And they pay you why you're here. Right. So those are the new world we're living in. But it's not without its own risk. Right. And that is why we discuss in that local way. Watch out for some red flag. Right. When somebody is over promising, you return. Yes. That does not make sense. Yes. For example, you know, this is not feasible. Yesterday, I saw you on a forum. Yes. The company was promising 400% return. Right. It doesn't make sense. That's a big percentage. I don't know. But when you promise me 8%, 7%, OK, maybe it's possible. Because what are you going to be selling? Right. You know, that will make you disperse. A little bit. You know, away from the general economy. Right. For example, you go to lock your money in the bank. Maybe they give you 10%, 15% or whatever. Right. And then somebody is promising you 400%. That's the first red flag. Right. Because, you know, when you're too greedy, that is a trap. They do for you to go and sell. Absolutely. So you can make it sell systematically. Absolutely. And just in the description, you've mentioned the things that you're looking out for, that you are also in your area of expertise, include cryptocurrency crime. You've mentioned that the DACA web involving the DACA web, but terra finance, money laundering, tax evasion. This is a big thing with the elites. The elites who have big money. Hopefully you do as well. Now that you're like a gatekeeper and financial crimes and regulations. Maybe you can touch on it a little bit, especially the tax evasion part in the digital space. Is it also monitored? Are you supposed to pay tax? Because I hear that space people don't pay tax no more. You should pay tax. You should pay tax. Okay, please talk. So I was speaking with our revenue agency, for example. And so there's this company that does annual research on cryptocurrency activity per country, including Kenya. So we know how much volume. So for Nigeria, for example, last year, Nigeria did about about 60 billion US dollars reported. That is just like 20% of it. 20% of it? 60 billion. Good Lord. So where are the tax element in that? Yes. And I believe Kenya would have done about 40 or more billion last year. Where are the tax element there? So the simple reason is that you have the likes of revenue agencies not there yet. And you have also government not out with regulation to say, like for Nigeria, for example, 10% taxes due on any crypto activity you do. Right. So if you don't have the laws and regulation, there's simply no offense because you don't know nobody's asking you to do. Yes. And that is why it is great what the blockchain association of Kenya are doing in pushing the bill to make sure that people, I mean, the government take its due taxes from this because the actual thing is that it's in a different way. And it's difficult for government to go there to monitor what is happening. And those are the kind of services we're giving. Yes. So you need visibility to activities that are happening within the crypto space. Right. How many exchanges are actually today operating in Kenya? Yes. Those are the questions that government should be able to answer. Yes. And you, the exchange, how many of these Kenyan customers do you have? Yes. Those are questions that government should have. Yes. So they should be monitored? They have to be monitored. And have a record as well? They have to be monitored. Which is a good and a bad thing. I know to the people in the forex trading, they've been like, well, no, I don't want anybody to know how much I've made. They don't have a chance. For example, if I make one billion years to this right now, and I want to direct that money to my bank account, definitely the bank will ask me how did you make this money. And in fact, I have to write a letter to explain to them how I got the one billion. Why should I? Yeah. And for example, for crypto, you don't have to send it to the bank. For example, that is where it becomes a bit dicey. Right. But if you make one billion, 100 million in crypto as profit, you simply send it to your personal wallet. So the government do not have visibility. Yeah. But you know, there's a way you will withdraw to your impasse, especially in Kenya, to come to your impasse, and then maybe your bank account again. Yeah. As compared to just having it stay in that digital wallet. Yeah, but if I move, let's for example, if I move 10,000 Kenyan shillings from my profit to impasse, I have no idea where that money is coming from. Yes. And then you have to go to the base where that money is made and to be able to understand it. And the danger is this. If you don't, a lot of maybe corrupt people, maybe you will have taken money for the poor, converted to this and loaned that money out. That is one. There's another way, laundry. So and also if you're having terrorists, for example, if you send them impasse, it's traceable. People know it, they may know. If you send money to them to your bank, they may know. So they choose to receive cryptocurrency, which you can send directly to their wallet. And so your funding terrorism. So if law enforcement don't understand that government is not in that space. So that's very risky for all of us. Right. And that is why we're of the opinion that this has to happen because we give those support for this to be investigated for which money came to where, who is trading what, where is it going to. And of course put all the safe guys in place to make sure that money laundry, terror financing, that net market, for example. So you wouldn't want a place that have all the powers to sell your credit card information in the dark net market. Absolutely. And in that net market, people buy credit cards. People buy hacking tools. So you don't need to go to university to study cybersecurity or understand hacking. You simply go to the dark net market, buy the processes to hack a system. And a lot of young people go there and the money that powers those dark net market. Right. This is neither Kenyan shearing or US dollars. They use cryptocurrency to do their exchanges because they understand it's not traceable. Right. And that is the mystery. There's a mystery about that. Yeah, but that is the thing we're trying to clear that it is not true. Yes. That this is not traceable. I remember my central bank governor in my country, you know, at a time when he gave instruction to the banks to say, do not touch cryptocurrency anymore. And because we have an understanding that this is money for criminal. Yes. This is money that cannot be traceable. Yes. And I completely disagree with him on different medias. Yes. Because we have cryptocurrency forensic lab within just few kilometers to the corporate headquarters of the central bank. And this can be investigated. It is cheaper and faster to investigate than the normal money. Right. Because I understand, I told you about the features of blockchain, which is a transparency. Transparency. So without knowing anything, you could go check who is doing which transaction and how much. Yes. And definitely they'll need people like you. No, everyone really. So that's how you need to educate everybody. Yes. So when you go to blockchain explorer, as we're seated here, I see every transaction happening in the world. Everyone can see. Oh, you can be able to see the names, the accounts. You're not seeing the names. So that's where our expertise comes in. Just the transactions. So if anybody, maybe somebody have stolen somewhere, he converts it to cryptocurrency. All right. Everyone in the world can see, but you don't know who. All right. So that's where our own expertise come to layer what we call the personal identifiable information. All right. So because there are a lot of touch points you can aggregate to know who the person is. So we've done a few investigations. At the last one we just did, currently before I came here, the young man lost his money, over 500,000 US dollars, for example. And he was wondering what happened to that. And when he came, of course we put in the wallet address in our lab because we have different tools, I began to trace where money have touched everywhere, to the last mile. So mostly the criminal we want to, because you don't collect cryptocurrency. If you're selling something now today, you have fewer people that say, pay me in cryptocurrency. So they must look for a way to convert that back to Kenya and Chile, for example, to make sense for them to be able to transfer. So at the point of conversion, you either have to touch NPSR, or you have to go to a cryptocurrency exchange and also touch there to be able to convert it. So at that touch point, that's where we wait for you. Then we know who. All this wallet we've been looking at. So actually this is the guy that have it. So you put them together and you go pick him up. And the tools actually can give you the location of the person doing that transaction. So for a lot of time, we have given law enforcement those support. That's when this guy will come in. Yeah, they just go pick it up. They'll come to you. They'll tell you, hey, we've seen something. So it's not as difficult as maybe government. It really sounds like, you know, it's very simple French, but like you put it, it sounds like ABCD. Yeah, it's very simple. And you mentioned, you also mentioned hacking, that I believe now there's like black hackers and white hackers, which is like there's, they're allowed to do the work and then there's these other ones who like just, they penetrate through places they're not supposed to. And now I've seen, it's not a bad thing as well. Yeah, so additionally, like our company, what we do, we do the cybersecurity service. We hack what we have for good. So the simple reason why you tell us, so you tell us, you tell us, so we do what we call vulnerability assessment of your system and penetration testing of your system. So if you build an IT solution, before you go to the market, you come to us and say, I want you guys to test it, which you pay for as a service. I want to test it. I want you to do an assessment of my system. Is there any vulnerability that hackers can take? Right. So we take those vulnerabilities. We tell you, this is how you have to patch it. This is what you need to do. And periodically, we come to check your system by penetrating it, legally, because you want the service from us. So we test it. If there's anywhere we find that it's not strong enough, we tell you, this is what you need to do. So it's a cybersecurity service that most companies do. And the forensics, for example, offer that kind of service also. So for the bad actors, of course, they are black hackers like you call them. They have a lot of profit. And even countries are hacking. So if you like for North Korea, for example, they have a train of teams that they train those teams and they send them to the world to hack any system, hackable, to get revenue for the state. So those are state-sponsored hackers. And so those are all people you have to guide your system against. Countries have to guide their system against them. And so that is where our kind of expertise is coming in. I'd love to know about the hacking part. So that I terrorize the people who are trying to jokingly play with us for some kidding. I'm playing. I'm playing. All right. Let's get into it. In this country, right here in Kenya, the president mentioned stories that remote us. And there's also a part where they mentioned, I think it was a site called Iwaka, which I believe is like a remote site where people can walk and earn money. Maybe right now in Kenya, what are some of the, let me say, the sites that people can join and still make money in the cryptocurrency space? You can say the names. Oh, you can say the names. You'll be advertising them. But maybe just maybe more opportunities. Yeah, a few platforms that can help Kenya's make money. Yeah, of course we have got a few platforms, which are, of course, regulated by the Capital Markets Authority. So probably what I can advise most of the audience who are watching, if you just log into the Capital Markets Authority website and then search for those platforms where you can be able to treat the currency, I think the ones which are valid and licensed, you can be able to get them from that point. Yes. All right. There's someone I interviewed here who at some point they had a scandal that they were scamming people for extrading. Yes. So what could have possibly happened for a person who is doing for extrading and then they've been scammed, or maybe they're using that to scam other people? What could be happening behind the scenes for them? Okay, maybe just to get your question, they've been scammed at what point? Like you said, they were like a group of people who are posing as a professional for extraders. Okay, good. And then people joined them and then all of a sudden the money disappeared and then it was out there in the public. Okay. That this function is a professional claim to be a professional for extrader. Okay, good. But yet people's money is... So allow me to like handle it in different segments when it comes to forexpaces also as well. So scammers usually have got different techniques and one of them usually come in form of offering what is called signals. And signals basically means in Swahili term moakenya. So moakenya is basically someone who has studied how the market works. Then he gives you like already analyzed entries so your work is just to copy paste whatever he has given you to your trading platform. So what normally happens, a majority of the people you are supposed to be paying for that particular service. So you'll realize someone who is not a professional in that particular space, he will charge money yet in reality the kind of signals that he is providing are totally not making sense. Another aspect is in the issue of robots as you mentioned about the boats. So you'll realize as Kenyans, given that I've been in this space, we love what can actually bring us quick money without working extra hard for it. And it's also a problem it faces majority of the youths. So when scammers come into space, they'll basically tell you, I have got this boat which even if you're asleep, even if you're busy working doing other things, it can be able to scan the market on your behalf and it can be able to pick entries on your behalf and you'll be able to make profits out of it. So you'll find that this particular scammer will end up selling to you this boat. Some of them even cost as expensive as $3,000, $4,000, $5,000, very expensive. But because when it's being presented to you, this will probably sort all my problems. You'll basically end up paying the $3,000, $4,000, then you end up having something which totally doesn't work. So at the end of the day, your money has been scammed. So also another aspect of scamming in that space where people get to run away with their money is the education bit. So someone will come and tell you, I need to train you, but this training probably will go for one week and then we are done. You see, the world of cryptos, the world of forex, these are new, these like a whole career. And I normally tell guys, if someone comes and tells me, for example in criminology and security studies, this course which I'm currently pursuing, and someone comes and tells me that I can be able to teach you criminology in two weeks and then you'll become an expert in that particular field. That one doesn't sound as if it's something which is possible and genuine. But you see, the reason why scammers love using this language is because they don't want you to have that mentality of do I really need to study for that longer in order for me to get to understand this? So people usually fall into those ones, given that they are like, okay, good. I can only be trained for one week, two weeks and then I'm good to go in the market of which most of the time it doesn't work that way. So you'll also end up paying a lot of money with that space of one week or two weeks and then what normally happens, they just brush you through. Even by the time now you are entering into the crypto space you can't even recall whatever you've taken through but your money is already gone. So those are some of the areas where scammers usually take advantage of, especially for the vulnerable people, those who don't understand what is required. There's a story I heard where they were told I already have an account, and then they mentioned this account has maybe 5,000 connection links, so maybe you just need to top it up for another 5,000. I don't know if it's true. There can be an existing account in there. Yeah, of course. Without probably touching on the too much technicality, so that our viewers can be able to understand, you see whenever you are, let's say, trading, you need to have a trading account and in this trading account, we normally have got two segments where we have got what is called the demo trading and where you can be able to deposit the real money. That's like the dummy account. The dummy account. It's not withdrawable. It's not withdrawable. So with the dummy account... Hopefully it doesn't have 10,000 years of dollars then. Because that already... Exactly. Especially now if you're static you can only imagine a demo account with 10,000 years of dollars. Exactly. And not withdrawable. True. So with the dummy account, basically the reason why it's there is to help you be able to practice your skills whenever you're going through the training process and mostly what scammers usually do because they know you don't understand how this software platform works, he will basically come up with the dummy account. So he'll basically tell you, I want you to send me money, then I'll be able to load it on your behalf, into your account and then I'll be able to screenshot what I have so that you can be able to see it. And through the harvest. Exactly. So they will customize the dummy account with probably the number of dollars which is required. Let's say you have agreed to deposit $4,000, they'll customize it. Then you will send the $4,000, they'll send you a screenshot and then they'll be like, okay, now you have got your account. Right. But in real sense, whatever you basically have is something which is dummy and your money has already disappeared. Right. And that's why bottom line, before you jump into this space, into the crypto space, you basically need to seek advice from professionals. Professionals. Exactly. Is it possible for someone to go to the CMA and ask if I want to maybe start, join this blockchain space. Yes. Maybe they can also be directed. Exactly. As they offer that. Exactly. And especially now with the current bill which was already drafted. Right. Of course, which is still waiting for the first reading in parliament so that at least it can move now to some other stages. I believe once it passes, capital markets and territory will now have that mandate to be able to tell you which exactly are the ones which we have licensed so that you can be able to access them, use them, find much information and probably conduct your crypto trading skills and investment from them. Alright. Interesting. Also bring this conversation to a close at Deji. Do you feel like in Africa we need to have these kinds of conversations more and more and more and we need awareness and maybe even how to do things like mentorship forums so that young people can get to know about this and also feel to maybe give an estimation in terms of percentage of people that know how of how that spectrum works. Maybe from where you sit, where are we as a country. And then also finally maybe if you are to maybe say being a panel to advise the president on how to ensure that Kenya is at a certain level when it comes to this blockchain conversation what would you say? So I would say overwhelming percentage of young people are playing there. Whether they understand it now is a different thing. Right. If they do understand what I think overwhelming majority of young people understand cryptocurrency. They know how it works and they just need education on how to trade there and also mitigate risks. Right. I think that is what is missing and not what we are doing. Know how on navigation. Education, education, education is what I advocate for young people. Right. It's not enough for you to rush into it because you think there's an opportunity. Again, young people like I said are risk takers. They jump on opportunities and that's where they succeed. So the percentage of the people in the space are young people? Yeah, so maybe not able to put percentage on it but I would say maybe if you check the young people maybe I would give them a 20% actually because it's still a bit low because we can pick the people that understand it in Kenya for example. We have a meeting after this with a lot of them. Right. So we know it's there they have to push it out. I think the blockchain session of Kenya is doing a lot. We'll be doing a lot of that. What you're doing as a TV station is fantastic because again you are reaching wider audience. Right. So I think the fundamental in this education is there's a lot of opportunities but we need to be educated as this happens and if you are aware to advise the president and I say this anywhere I go to again I've been within this journey for some years and internationally I see how regulation goes. Right. And if you check the ways they are faster. Yes. The moment they came they have a lot of working groups they're putting a lot of contribution together between the people and the people and that is what we get I'm sure it needs more information and more and more. And I think they are getting a lot more that they have to fast track. It's something that they have to create the framework for people to play safely, so that when you go to CMA, they know how many people are licensed and those people have to protect the customers. They have to put safe guides in place and all the regulatory frameworks. They have to respect those things and then Kenyan citizens are protected. Leaving it unregulated is simply leaving Kenyan citizen vulnerable to scams, vulnerable to bad actors. And then, because we don't have the law, they don't see it as an offense because I'm not breaking anything anyway. So you leave it in a very regulatory arbitrage where bad actors come. I was speaking to our Security and Exchange Commission in Nigeria and I said, what I want to tell you guys is not to make me feel as an orphan, because I see you as a father that protects me against these bad actors. But when you don't do the law, I'm simply an orphan. And so today, bad platforms come and you can check them out. You know what they are going to tell you? Are you a U.S. citizen? They must ask you that question. And why are they asking you? Why are you asking? Yeah, that's what I'm going to, why are they asking you? It's because the U.S. Exchange Commission, Security and Exchange Commission, we come after you anywhere you are in the world if you defold an American citizen. So that is a father that looks after his own child. But if you leave me vulnerable, I'm simply an orphan. And so that is why, for me, if I'm to talk to authorities, quickly work with the blockchain association, first track this bill, let it be law, let it be a very organized environment for people to actually strive and make profit. Right. Waikilef, lastly, so you exit, what would you love Kenyans to know about you as a person, what you do? I know my colleague had already touched on some of the key areas on what we do. We basically help in creating awareness more about the cryptocurrency space. We also help with the tools, which are, especially when someone has suffered in the hands of the scammers, we can be able to assist with the tools and also the law enforcement can be able to, like be able to utilize them in order to investigate. So those are some of the key things which we currently have in place and also with matters of compliance and regulations. We are working in partnership with the major regulatory bodies to ensure that, to make sure that the services which are being offered are compliant especially, and they are more friendly to the consumers. Right, we are exiting. Do you guys have a contact and email a website where people can get information and get to reach out to you, maybe one of you can- Local address, local address. Yes, we are located in 1st Avenue Parkland, that is in Parkland, at a work style building. So when you come there, just you'll find us as A&D Forensics. Right, thank you. Of course, on social media, just check out A&D Forensics on both hands. A&D Forensics. What does A&D stand for? Just A&G, just partners. All right, yeah. Thank you guys for sharing this conversation. This is an endless conversation because I'm also a learner, so I've really learned so much. I need classes to be honest, I do. But thank you guys for coming through. Thank you very much. All right, that has been a DG, a 1EB, is a Blockchain Forensic Investigator and Senior Partner at A&D Forensics and Sehway Waikliffe is a cryptocurrency investigator shining to us on digital currency risks and regulations in Kenya. Definitely you guys have gotten all the insights and at this point, we take a very short break. We'll be coming back with much more. You'll follow me at Brian Saquanoan and follow us at 1-2-4-4-channel on the hashtag Goi in the morning. See you in just a bit.