 If your sign said, I'm okay with eating meat, you'd probably get a lot of support. You'd probably have like a lot of people coming up and be like... Yeah, I'm fine, Brett! Yeah, f***, I'm safe. What have I said? It's okay to eat dogs. Do you think I'll get high fives or a high five to the face with a chair? You sound like a vegan. You're almost convincing me to be a vegan. Hi, my name is Joey Carbstrom. I'm a vegan who has spent the last seven years trying to convince people that animal cruelty is wrong. Without as much success as I hoped. So I thought I'd try a new, completely opposite approach. I'd pretend to support animal cruelty and harness the power of reverse psychology. And you're deleting your brain form. What? F***, okay. This is how it went. Do you want to come and have a chat too, Michael? I'm curious. What do you want to know? Oh, what's your argument? My argument is, did you read the sign? There's nothing wrong with animal cruelty. Do you think there is something wrong with animal cruelty? What's wrong with animal cruelty? As a baseline, like obviously there's just like, obviously the moral issues of actually hurting something that has like a consciousness and knowing life. Okay. So like, you're saying animals are conscious and sentient. Yeah. And they have emotions, they have feelings. They can feel pain. So I'd say like, harming something that can consciously feel pain. How do you know they can feel pain? Because they can analyze like what parts of their brain get activated when like they are feeling pain. So they've tested it before on animals. So if I like had like, say chicken here and I like stabbed them with a hot iron. Yeah. How would you know that chicken felt that? They can't tell you. Yeah, but it's like, I mean, like I said, like so they've studied it before, right? They've been able to see that like parts of their brain light up according to the same way like a human's brain would light up when they're feeling pain, right? So similarly, like if an animal feels pain in that way and you know that, if your question is like, how do you know that specific animal is feeling pain? Then like, I guess that's a fallacy that you can run across like the board with any like any situation because it could be like, how do you know that if I shoot that human, they're definitely going to die. But how do you know if I shoot that human, they're going to feel pain. So you're saying like, you have to run the assumption that like they all do equally. So we have to assume basically the animal felt pain when I attack them. I mean, we all have to assume a lot of things in life, right? Because like you scientifically can't know every single thing and like veins and outs in it completely. But you can know enough. Let's assume they did feel the pain. Yeah. Let's just say I contain them and cause them pain. The chickens. Let's just say I contain the chickens, you know, kind of imprison them, cause them a bunch of pain. Like a battery farm, yeah. Yeah. And then I kill them. Yeah. And I eat them. Yeah. What's wrong with that? So what's wrong with it? What's wrong with that? That's what the people do right now. That's what people do? Yeah, yeah. That's currently like what's done with the animal, right? Yeah. What is wrong with it? But what's wrong with it? It's, I mean at the end of the day, there is like an ethical dilemma there, right? That you're willing to like treat. Like just because we do it doesn't mean that it's not wrong. So do you eat animals? Yes. Okay. Okay. So basically say 100,000 years ago, we were eating animals. Sure. And we're probably like not really concerned with how they felt, sparing them down, skinning them while they were still alive. If you look to nature, you'll see lions and tigers ripping apart animals, not concerned with how they feel with cruelty. Sure. So why should I be concerned with how an animal feels? I mean, that's based on survival, right? Like they'll, they will, they, it's very uncommon for animals to hunt unless they need it for sustenance, right? They're not, animals aren't going out there just killing animals when we need it. You're saying right now I'm not trying to survive. So if I'm not trying to survive, it then becomes cruelty that is wrong. Correct, like that's the whole argument, right? It's not like whether we can harm animals or whether like we should eat animals or not. Like obviously, like I don't think it's a great thing to like, like probably better, it is better morally to be a vegan. However, I like meat. So I live with that. Okay. You like meat. So if I like the taste of an animal, it's okay to be cruel to them and kill them? It's not okay. That's what I'm saying. Like I do it, but I don't think it's okay. Because I get confused, right? Because I look out here, most people look at this sign and be like, ah, there's nothing wrong with animal cruelty. It's crazy. But people have been yelling at me. Living creature, you're just like, hey, you're going to use that to buy an enjoyment. Sure, that's fine. That's great. That's lovely. The same people will go into the store and pay for animal cruelty and eat it. Sure. Yeah. So that's why I get confused. Like I don't understand why this is so controversial when most people participate in the thing that they're yelling at me about. I think also there's different definitions of cruelty, right? Okay. So some people will be like, like literally torturing an animal. Yeah. In a malicious way, as opposed to where there's actually no... Without... If there's no purpose to it, other than cruelty itself. I would say that a lot of people would argue that that's worse. Technically, it's not. I agree with you. I mean, the animal doesn't care why I'm torturing them. That's true. They don't know that I'm about to eat them. That's true. So why does it matter? I agree. I agree. That doesn't matter. It's the same difference. It's just as bad. It's hypocritical for sure. So if I'm torturing you, you're not going to first think about, oh, he's going to eat me. It's all good. Yeah, no, you're right. It's going to be just as bad for you. Yeah. Yes. So what I don't get, but I'm saying it's nothing wrong. I'm owning it that there's nothing wrong with it. You know what I mean? I'm owning it. Again, like so it depends on like then it might just be according to your definition, right? If your sign said, I'm okay with eating me, you'd probably get a lot of support. You'd probably have like a lot of people coming up and be like, Yeah, I'm fine, Brett. Yeah, I love steak. I'm fine with steak, yes. But if, What if I said I love eating? Obviously the wordy. What if I said this? What if I said, it's okay to eat dogs, dog meat. Sure. Do you think I'll get high fives or high fives to the face with the chair? No, you wouldn't get high fives. Yeah. Again, that's just going on social norms, right? Yeah, yeah. Like over here. But if you were in another country, Maybe, maybe. Maybe another part of another country. Yeah. Maybe, yeah. Maybe you're right with it, yeah. Yeah, so what do you think social norms should dictate morality? I think that morality is dictated by social norms. Whether I think it should or not is irrelevant. But I think that morality is dictated by social norms. It is. And do you think like that? Like what we think is moral today might not have been moral many years ago. And what we will do in the future might not be considered moral now. Okay. Yeah, because there's been many parts of time in history where social norms have dictated culture, traditions. In Nazi Germany, like the people thought they were doing the right thing. Propaganda and that, yeah? Exactly, yeah. So according to the social norm, you believe that what you were doing was correct at the time. But that doesn't mean that like they were bad people necessarily. It's just what you're fed, what you understand. I think like, maybe human slavery in America was a, you know, that was like generations and generations and generations and the generation, it's such a norm at that time. Sure. Maybe people didn't always analyze why that was wrong. Yeah, like for example, in India, like it's also like very typical for like people to have like workers in your house who work for like a very, very low wage, right? And like in other countries, that's almost like you could say that that's like modern slavery, you know, like people would look at it in that way. I'll get you, I'll get you. But over there, like it's it's just a, it's just a norm at this point in life. I mean, you're making me think like we obviously exploit and kill a whole bunch of animals. And most people complain about animal cruelty as well. Yeah. Do you think like maybe this is just another one of those social norm things that we're going to snap out of? Because right now the social norm is to eat animals. Yeah, yeah. Once that shifts. Once that shifts and you think it will shift and we're, do you think we're in a part of the past right now? I think so. Yeah. So we'll look back on and be like what were we doing? You'd be able to say just based on, you know, like the ethical standards by which like you're allowed to cut meat or like sorry the way that they would butcher meat, right? Yeah. Like that has changed obviously from in the past. Like, you see there are still countries where they do it differently. I mean, it's gotten worse in many ways. In some ways, yeah, maybe just because it's happening. In the farming, that's because the demand has gotten bigger. So factory farming is the norm. But then yeah, that's also, I mean, okay, so yeah, it depends how far back you go, I guess. Like you go back to like more basic farming. That was probably the best for animals, right? Yeah. Yeah. And they kill them with a sledgehammer or something. Yeah. But like somewhere in the middle there would have been like a time. Yeah. I mean, so wait a second. If we went back to like old school farming. Yeah. Would you consider it cruel if I, you know, say there's a happy, happy animal there. Yes. And I killed it. Yes. Would you say that's cruel? Yes. Why is that cruel? It's still, I mean, it's cruel in the same way it's cruel now, right? Like you're taking the life on and harming something that lives, feels. But if that is existing, it's cruel just to kill it in your opinion. If they're just existing it's cruel to kill them. If that is existing they're happy, it's cruel to kill them. I think so. I think like killing anything is cruel. I mean, I would have wanted to be killed whatever. Yeah. But I'm not an animal. Yeah. I'm a human. Yeah. So like do you think a cow wants to live? I think so. How do you know? I mean, just why does it eat every day? Why does it do all of the functions it needs to do to maintain its life? What if I said it's just a mode, it's just, that it's reacting, that it's machines, meat machines that react. Maybe. Like to an extent, yeah, they don't have the ability to process things that they're not as complex as humans obviously. So they don't have like the ability to process things that they're not as complex as humans obviously. So they don't have like that emotional intelligence that we have. But regardless, like they're still going to try to attack a cow. They're not going to Yeah. They're not just going to be like, oh, just submit to it. Kill me. Yeah. I guess what you're suggesting is that it's cruel to, let's just say if they've got a will to live. Yeah. It's cruel to take their life away from them without their sort of, their consent in a way. They've got this will to live. Yeah. It's cruel to take their life away from them without their sort of, their consent in a way. They've got this will to live and I come up and kill them. Yeah. Yeah. That's gone against what they desire, what their preference is. Their preference is to live. I've come and taken their preference without their permission. Yeah. Are you sure you're not a vegan or something? Yeah, I'm not a vegan. Yeah. You're not? No. I just like, I resigned to the fact that yeah, I'm okay with the fact that I do things that are not moral. You sound like a vegan. You're almost convincing me to be a vegan. I'm serious. If you do it. I mean, like you've made me think about like being cruel to animals in factory farms and how like it's not justified to eat them because we don't need to. And we're not in a survival situation. Another one. And that it's cruel to kill someone if they don't want to die. Yeah. So basically, I should be a vegan. You should. Is that the genre I could be trying to get from this conversation? Yeah. But my question to you is why the hell aren't you? I'm okay with it. You're okay with it? Yeah. You're okay with doing something you know is immoral? I'm okay with doing something I know is immoral. Just with animals or with humans as well? Yeah, mainly with animals, I guess. So like, you wouldn't go kill, you wouldn't kill like a person? I'm very unlikely to kill a person, yeah. I also am very like, if I had to kill animals myself, I probably wouldn't eat me. It's the fact that that like is taking away from you. Disconnect. Yeah, that makes it a lot easier, obviously. So okay, you give me 10 quid, I kill a person, would you do that? Because there's a disconnect? No. Why? I mean, other than like, you know, obviously the legal ramifications, like as well as like the fact that you... Take more out of it, they just want to, they want to live like we talked about? Yeah, I mean you, it's a lot harder to kill a human, right? At the end of the day, like even as a vegan, you have to admit, who said I'm vegan? Who said I'm vegan? If you were. Say you were. Well, I might have been now after our conversation. It sounds like you already are vegan. And that's the whole point of these conversations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's interesting, like you knew all these arguments. Yeah. Where have you learned these arguments from? I've tried being vegan for a couple of months. It was too hard? It was pretty hard, to be honest. But it was also like circumstance, like I was working away all I could eat was salad every day. That's it. There was no options. I think it's becoming easier and easier to become vegan. But if you had to kill the animals yourself, you wouldn't do it? No. You would be vegan? I would be vegan, yes. Okay. Yeah. I've had to kill the animals myself. Honestly, like every time I watch like a documentary, I go vegan for like a couple of months. Yeah, yeah. You feel bad, but then it like fades because you're like, goddammit. You fade back into your conditioning. Oh, shit. I get it. You seem like a good, hearted, intelligent person, man. I mean, I don't know why you don't align your actions with... Yeah, I mean, it's definitely, it would be a better thing to do. I think it's pretty hard to shift the needle for everyone, right? Like to move everyone in that way, but it's like... I mean, you, I'm more concerned with you because you're a rational, logical, reasonable person. Sure. And I just feel like you're kind of letting yourself down a bit because you believe, you know what's right. Yeah. But like, I just feel like you're not motivated to like do things that you know are right. The impact that you're having on conscious beings, if you could witness that, if you would be abhorred, you would be traumatised. Yeah, yeah. If you've seen these animals who are screaming in their blood in a horrible, I don't know what you think a slaughterhouse is like. Yeah. They are horrible, horrible hellholes. Yeah. I don't know what you think a factory farmer's like, but when I come out of them, I am disturbed and traumatised and smell like feces and death. If you witnessed all that stuff, there's no way that you could continue to do it. I mean, I just don't, not the way that you've spoken to me yet. No, I think you're right. Like, I mean, it's probably one of those things where you try to disassociate from it so that you can make it easier on yourself. Yeah. It's like, it's like blinding yourself. It's a cognitive dissonance. Exactly. You're feeling, say one thing, action say another. There's this big disconnect between that feeling and, Correct. Yeah. I agree. It is what I do. Maybe one day. Maybe. You'll see the victims, but let me give you this. These are some documents. I don't know if you've seen Dominion, but you're from Australians. Yeah. No, that's awesome. Thanks for that. No worries, brother. Thanks for talking to me. Did you really know I was vegan when you first sat down? No. You didn't? No. Was I meant to? At what point could you tell that I was vegan by the end? Basically when you made the point for vegan. Yeah. At what point? Just before we started talking about it. Yeah. Like you flipped the script. Yeah, yeah. When I flipped the script, do you know I was vegan? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Epic bro. Good talking to you, mate. Take care.