 Hi Patricia. How are you doing? Oh, I'm good. I'm good. How are you? I'm good. Thank you for taking out time again. Last time, we unfortunately had a really bad technical glitch and we couldn't get your interview back, but I'm glad that we're getting the opportunity to chat again. Yes, and we had a really nice chat as well. Yes, we did. So, Patricia, as everybody would like to know your story, everybody has a defining moment. What was your story? Oh, well, I guess if you ask my eldest child, they would say that it was having a child at a relatively early age. I was 21 at the time. So if you're going to say that you had like that moment when you kind of changed your entire trajectory of your life, then that would probably be it. When I went from not knowing what I would be doing in three months to suddenly knowing what I would be doing for 20 years. Yeah. So how did it all start? You are and you have your own company. I have seen that you have done such amazing things. You started your career in 2005. You were an assistant teacher. You were a full-time programmer, consultant, developer, prototype engineer. I think public speaker as well. It's like so many things you have done. I think maybe I missed it a lot as well. Well, way back when in 2000, when I just decided I had to reinvent myself in making my life, I went to university and I was planning on studying mathematics and languages because those were two things I was interested in. But then I by chance took a programming course, symbolic programming and scheme, which is like a list I liked. And then I fell in love with programming and I changed my entire plan for my academic plan and switched over to computer science. And I loved it. I just want to do more and more programming. So I took all of the programming classes. I could get my hands on. And then when I finished in 2005, while I was at university, I've been using Opera as my main browser. And so my first choice for an employer after university was to go and work on Opera on my browser. And that actually worked out. So right after university, I went to Opera to work on the Opera browser in 2005. And I worked there for four or five years. And then I went and did, I tried to be a Java programmer for a couple of years because Opera was doing, I was doing C++. At university, I've been doing Java and lots of other languages. So then I was a consultant for a couple of years and then I wanted to go back to C++. And so I went to Cisco and I worked on embedded products there and making video conferencing equipment for this new reality that is now. And while I was there, I was also playing around with browser stuff there. And then I was like, oh, I want to make a browser again. So I went to Vivaldi and worked on the Vivaldi browser for a while. But while I was there, I was like, I really want to start something on my own. I went to start my own company. But I didn't know what, for what, I don't know. And I kind of, I guess I've kind of felt like I had to have a real purpose. But I just wanted to start my own workplace kind of thing. And so I brought it up with my husband one morning when we were like, one weekend when we were just like sitting at breakfast. And I was like, so I was thinking I was going to quit my job and start a company. And I was like, I was worried. It's like, it's big step. It's like saying that you want to do this. So I was thinking maybe in a year when I've thought it through properly. And he goes, oh, quiet. And he's like, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is not going to go well. You were scared. Okay. And I was like, you got to say something. And he was like, he was like, I'm thinking. And I was like, okay, just think faster. And then he was like, okay, I think that's a great idea. I'm going to quit my job and work for your company. And I'm like, why? Are we both quitting the jobs? You know, there is no company, you know, I just bought some domain names. I mean, they was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to quit my job and work for your company. And so while I was still a Vivaldi, he founded his first client. He started the company and quit his job in the span of two weeks from saying that's amazing. Yes. And so I was still working on Vivaldi and he had started the company. And then I was like, okay, a few months afterwards, I was like, well, I guess I have to go join the company now. So that's how I went just after it. That's amazing. So that's three years ago now. And it's been great. I have to say, we were both very worried because we hadn't worked like this before. But if you can get sustainable income and stuff, it is amazing to do in my opinion. So yes. So were you scared that, okay, starting the new company, of course, you had your support, your husband was supporting you. But still, you know, there was some, you know, a lot of people who want to start their own job, like on ventures, they're a little bit scared that, oh, if I'm going to quit my job, it's going to be a problem. So were you scared like a little bit that what is going to happen? Oh, yeah, no, it was definitely like, it was a little bit like jumping off the cliff. But I have to say, like, basically, we thought about it for a while. And we came to a conclusion that, okay, well, if it fails, we'll just go and get a job. Yeah. So you had to back up that. It's not like I can't go and get a job. Actually, it's like, while I've been working at Tertosec, like most of the people I talk to, they'll be there for like a possible assignment as a contractor or consultant. They tell me, oh, we would hire you in a heartbeat, but we don't take consultants. Oh, my God. So I don't think it would be hard to get a job. Yeah. If everything fell apart. So and I guess that's, that's why it didn't feel like such a huge risk. Like there's no massive investment. If you work in tech, like, what is it? What is it that you need to do to do your job? Well, you need a computer and an internet connection. Yeah. And you don't need much else. Like, okay, now you probably need a microphone and a camera, but you usually have because you are walking. Yeah. But it's not like you have to buy a factory. It's not like you have to have all of these materials. It's not like there's like this huge upfront investment that you need. If you're going to live off of your brain, then most of what you're going to need is quite relatively cheap. And that also means that if it fails, like, you know, okay, so then I will go do something else. So in that way, I think it's a relatively less risky thing to do. But still, I mean, it's scary. What if we fail? Well, okay, then we, you know, then we failed, then we tried something and it failed. And it's, but I think that's important when you're like, you get scared about things, then you just think, okay, so what's the worst thing that can happen? Yeah. Okay, so imagine that happened. What would you do? And it's like, okay, well, then I guess, you know, I guess I failed. This works every time I've tried this. I always see the situation, okay, what worst can happen? Okay, this is the worst thing this can happen in life. Yeah. And I think you become automatically very optimistic. Yeah, because it's like a lot of things, like a lot of things in business as well as it's sort of like, okay, so what's the worst that can happen? It's like, and then it's often, often the answer is they can say no. And I was like, okay, then they said no. I mean, I mean, if that's the worst that can happen, and the best that can happen is that they say yes, and we do amazing things. Oh, great. And if they say no, well, then they said no, and maybe somebody else will say yes. And it will just, but it helps because I get, I think sometimes if you just say something out loud, then you kind of, you can hear like, oh, it's not that bad, actually. It just felt bad in the moment. Yeah. So out of all these roles, which one is your favorite? I'm a programmer. Like, if I, if I want to be, I don't know what it is, like if I, if I could compare it to the, like how other people describe things, I think it would be like for me, it's like, like, like mindfulness or something. Like, for me, it's, it's, that's how I, I, I get happy. Like, it's so, so if I'm even like, even if I'm like, slightly like down and like, if I can spend like three days just coding, I'll be happier. And it doesn't really matter what I mean. Yeah. For some reason, the whole, and I think maybe it has something to do with mindfulness, because you have to be very focused in the moment. There's like, you can't be obsessing about stuff that's been going on, and you can't be worried about the future. So it's very much like in the moment thing. So I think maybe it is kind of mindfulness in a, in a weird way. And often described as like, flow or something, but you kind of just get into this focused state. And, and for some reason, it, it just, it makes me happy. I can't explain it. Yeah. So this has been like, if when I see, you know, you as a woman doing a lot of things, do you feel that women feel somehow they face a lot of struggles and hurdles while they are working in the industry? Yes. Yes, very much. A few years ago, I guess I must have been in 2018, maybe I, I, I saw a tweet on Twitter, a woman who said that other women that other women are there other women that are the only women devs in their teens. And then I wrote, wrote back and I said, basically my entire career. And, and then she said, do you have any survival tips? And I was like, because the thing is I hadn't really, I could just base it on my own experience. That's the whole, that's the whole problem of being a minority in a situation is that you don't know how much is universally applicable and what is just your personally experience. Right. So I just, I just wrote from my personal experience. And I wrote, so I wrote like 24, like a thread of 24 tips. And, and it became like insanely popular. It's like it was repeated like crazy. And since it wasn't a reply to, it ended up being all sort of sorts of messed up because the threading doesn't work on Twitter or actual thread. And so then I got worried about like people will miss the rest of it. So then I put all of it in a blog post and then I kind of explained the different points better. So, so if you, if you search, I think if you just Google like Patricia and survival tips, then you probably will find it. I'm definitely checking it. And, and, and it has, it has all sorts of random things. And it was in the order of it came to mind. But, but it is, but when you read it, you kind of realized that it does come from kind of a sad place. Yeah, it does, it does. Because you know, some industries are even, of course, I come from marketing and management industry, but still women are very less. And when it comes to tech industry, it's completely different. You just don't expect women to be there. Yeah, no, and, and, and in C++ where we're in the, like the subsection of programming where I've been most of my career, it's even worse. So, so it's, it's often it's, it's not uncommon that, that if I am a programmer in a, in a, in a company, then I will be, I'll be the, like, one woman per 100 developers. Yeah, that's a 1%. It's just like, it's, it's, it's ridiculously small percentage. Yeah. And, but it also means that most of the men that I work with, have never worked with a woman in their entire career, as a developer, they might have worked with with women in other roles, but never as, as, as a developer. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that happens basically every time you start a new team, you have a bunch of guys that have only ever worked with guys. Yeah. And, and, and it takes like, I spoke to, I think I spoke to like two or three women who have been in this, where somebody said, Oh yeah, you should go, you know, apply for this job. And they, and what they say is that, no, I'm not leaving this company. And, and people are like, why? What? And they're like, I have trained these men now for three years. Yeah. Not leaving. I've finally gotten them to a point where this is acceptable. I'm not going and training a new group of men. It's just no. And, and, and, and it's funny because the thing is, I think that there is truth there. I think it's like you've managed to, to shape the culture in a way that is, is, is, is less bro culture and more like human being culture. Yes. And, and it's, it's, it's taxing to do that over and over again. And, and that's the thing that I don't think also, I don't think women, especially in the beginning of their careers, I don't think they realize how tiring it gets. Like in the beginning, it's like, yeah, well, it's not that bad. I guess I can do this and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I don't understand why these like older women are complaining so much. It's, it's fine. I will make it. But the thing is over time, it's like years and years of this. And you're like, it wears you down. Yeah. And, and you're questioning yourself. Exactly. Why belong here? Like am I wrong? It's like, and some days you wake up and you think like, why am I doing this to myself? I should like get another job. Like, it shouldn't be this hard. And so a lot of the stuff in my thread is, is basically just advice I would have given to like myself. Yeah. But on the other hand, I'm not sure I would have listened. These things worked like things that I, it wasn't things that I knew and I did right. Most of those things were things that I did and that I did wrong. And I realized afterwards that it was wrong. Like, like trying to become one of the guys. Like changing my personality, changing the way I spoke, changing, changing maybe the way I dressed, changing lots of things to try to fit in and kind of losing myself in that situation. And kind of, and often becoming a person that I didn't like anymore. And that's, that's hard. Like just saying, because we are adaptive creatures as human beings and we want to be a part of the group. And, but, but at a certain point you kind of, you take a step back and you look at this person you've become or you are becoming. Yeah. And you're like, I don't like that person. Yeah. And I don't want to go further. No, I don't want to be, I don't want to be that person. Yeah. And, and, and, and I think sometimes we need to take a step back and think, okay, yeah, I, I maybe, maybe I need to step out of the situation. Maybe I need, and it doesn't, but the thing is I think very often what I see a lot of women do is they think, Oh, well, I have to leave tech altogether. Yeah. And, and, and, and no, you don't have to leave tech altogether, but you gotta, you have to leave these people. Just like, move to another place. Like, and find other people, people who, who, who are happy that you're there. Like, find those people. And, and, and, and be very discerning about the people that you surround yourself with. Yeah. And it's unfortunate that they, that we have to be so careful about these things. But, but it, but it is what it is. And we kind of have to exist in the reality that it, yeah, it shouldn't be that way, but it is that way. And so we still have to go to work. Yes, we have to. So, so, so we do what we can to make that better. And, and, and, and a part of that I think is helping other underrepresented people and that are underrepresented in different ways. Like, help them get jobs, help them to get opportunities, help them to do like whatever you can to like, to like, send the elevator down if you and get other people to come with you because we need, we need much more diversity in this industry. And we need to like level the playing field because it is not level and we need more role models that are not white guys. Yeah. And so, so, and that's why I speak, actually. I, I, I am, I was, I was at work, it was the Cisco, it was probably in 2016, 17, I remember. And, and there was an internal conference and they were trying to find speakers and for like a women's conference. And then they, and they were, and they were just, and I was like, it would be nice if we had a technical speaker. Yeah. And they were like, yeah, but we can't find any women technical speakers. And I was like, that's sad. That's really sad, yes. And I was like, and so then I, I wrote in the, in the internal chat, I wrote, I want a role model. And then this, this woman, she walked up to me later and she said, but Patricia, I read, I read what you wrote in the channel. And she was like, but to me, you are a role model. And I was like, wait, what? What are you talking about? But the thing is, it turned like, it turned it around because then I realized I'd been working in the industry for, for 11, 12 years. It wasn't like I was new. You know, there's lots of women that have worked a lot less than me. And then I realized, okay, why, why, you know, maybe I should like show my face and just say, you know, hi, we're not all dead. I mean, some of us are still here. And we still love to program. It didn't, it wasn't a phase. And, and so, and so I, I, I started speaking at conferences basically for, for two reasons. One reason was that other women would see a woman on stage, like they would see they exist. These, these, these women, they, they exist in the universe. Like, because I don't see them around me daily. They do exist. There are people like me out there. And the other thing is I wanted men who hadn't worked with women or worked very, like had very little experience working with women to see, Oh, there are really technical women out there that are highly capable. And me going around thinking that, you know, women can't do this work. I'm being silly because clearly here is an example of a woman that can't. So, so, so this is not, this is a fallacy. And, and, and I was hoping that that would kind of prepare them mentally for, for getting a woman in their teams, that they were like, that is not weird to them, that women are highly technical. Yeah. And then hopefully that they would be, would be better colleagues to, to future women. And so those were basically the reasons why I speak because actually I hate speaking. No, to be honest, we need people like you to speak because I feel that there are a lot of women who want to, who are very smart and they're just, you know, they're just scared to join any industry. They feel like, you know, that maybe men would not accept me or how am I going to behave there? What is going to happen? So they're just scared to go out. Yeah. And, and, and, and that's why, you know, I have my, my, my DMs are open on Twitter. So anyone can DM me, which means that I often get women from, from all over the world. Who read my blog post, who are in a crisis at work and don't know what to do and want advice. And, and, and, and I, I don't necessarily have like all of the, all of the answers, but what I, but, but I, but I do have the experience enough to know what it's like and also to believe them. And, and, and that oftentimes is so important because when you're in a situation, you start wondering like, is it all in my head? Like, am I crazy? Yeah. And, and just having somebody say, no, this is, this, this is not you. This is not you. This is, you're, you're not wrong here. And that can be so powerful to just being able to, to get that perspective because it is, you can become very self-destructive trying to figure this out. Yeah. You start questioning yourself actually. Yes. That maybe you are not that capable and that's why people are not accepting you. Yes. And it just, you know, if you continue to work in that phase, it just becomes really bad for you. Yes. And it just, it gets worse. And, and, and so, so, so that's actually one of my tips. I don't remember which one, but it's basically try, try to believe that it's not you. That it is them. And, and, and even I don't even say it's not you, it's them. I'm saying try to believe it. And I'm not even saying like you will manage, but just try because it's hard. It is so hard when you are in the situation to, to be able to, to get that perspective. Like personally, I always believe too late. Always. Yeah. Like I should, like the moment I get far enough away, I realize I should have left longer. Yeah. But, but it's, but when you're in it, you kind of, kind of feel like if I just work harder, if I'm just a little bit nicer, if I don't talk so loud, if I wear less revealing clothes, if I do this, if I do that, you know, maybe, maybe they'll accept me. And it is so self-destructive and you, and, and you literally destroy yourself in the process. Exactly. Yeah. And it's, it's, but it's super hard not to do. Yes. It's just you, it's very weird. You're in a weird situation and you don't know what to do. And I feel that you are doing a great job. I feel that, you know, this is actually motivated me as well that maybe, you know, we should start writing more about what we have experience so that other women can actually maybe reach out to us and if they are not comfortable, they just read it and they feel better that they are in a similar situation. Yeah. And I think like even, even now, very recently, I was speaking to a woman and she was in, in a hard place and, and then I sent her like screenshots of some of my like survival tips. And they were like basically describing exactly what she was saying. And I was like, I wrote this four years ago or something. These are not words I'm telling you now in this situation. This is words I wrote years ago. So, so, so just so you know, it's not only you. It's not, this is not like, it's not you. This is a pattern. This is something you experienced. This is, this is not something that has to do with you being wrong in any way. This is an experience shared by so many women. And I've spoken to women from all over the world, from, from, from, from Southeast Asia to, to, to Russia, to, to Brazil, to, to America, to like all over the world. And, and they all have, have similar stories of, of, of, of trying to be a woman in tech. And so, so it and even outside of tech, like I've seen, I've spoken to women in academia, I've spoken to women in finance. I've spoken to women in, in so many other sectors that have similar issues as well. So, so just, just the fact that like, like when I wrote, when I wrote that thread, yeah, I didn't realize that it was a common experience. Like me, I was writing it, but I didn't realize either. So, so I got that validation from other people saying, oh my God, you know, me too. So, and I think that is so powerful to realize that it's not only me. You know? Yeah, I can actually relate whatever you're saying. So I feel that every woman who's actually working would have gone or been in a similar situation. Some must have dreaded very nicely and some might have been dealing right now. So I think your talk and your blog is like really, really perfect for that. Yeah, you feel that if, if you talk specifically about IT. So do you think that there's there are anything which you would say to maybe women or men, what in future they should do, you know, what should they actually follow so that they can achieve their goals? One like, unfortunately, any advice. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, I the the the problem that we still have, which is, is, is true for, for, for, for all groups are underrepresented in tech. So that's not only women, but, but, but also it's like people, color black people, people with disabilities, less by gay, queer people, trans people, like all of these groups. And one of the problems that we have is that we have to be, we have to be very good. It's not being, unfortunately, being average will probably not be enough for us. And that, that's not how it should be, of course. And then that is also one of the things that I think is very important for people to, to separate in their heads. Something that my mother told me when I was young, which has stuck with me, she said, you need to distinguish between how the world should be and how the world is and, and, and be very explicit about that difference. And so, and, and when you think about things, you have to realize that when you say it shouldn't be like that, that's how the world should be. But you still have to live in the world as it is. And, and, and so, so when I give you survival tips and say that you have to be, you have to be better, it's, it's dealing with the world as it is. But that doesn't mean that is the world how it should be. You know what I mean? So, so it is true. We have to, we have to be better, because if we are not, then the people who don't want us here are going to use it against us. And they're going to use it against us as individuals and they're going to use it against us as a group. And, and this responsibility can feel extremely unfair, because it is unfair. No, I've read that you, you are writing about diversity and inclusion. And now I understand why are you working towards these things? Because I think you understand these things, you feel a lot about it. And it's really nice to see, you know, that people out there are working on such topics. Yeah, now I think we, like the thing is, I don't think that we should be like, I really feel like, okay, so if you go to the world houses should be, I feel like women should be able to operate in tech just as any other man, just focusing on, you know, the work on the tech on the knowledge on the, you know, and not worry. But the problem is that you are living in the real world and, and your whatever characteristic about you makes you unrepresented in tech is not something that you can ignore because it's going to be pushed in your face and all sorts of different circumstances. So you don't have the privilege of pretending it isn't there, you have to deal with the reality of the situation. And, and one of the things that I've been trying to do in many different ways is to, to make people more aware of things that, that happens to other people, but don't happen to you. Yeah, because that is often a problem that people have is that they, they don't necessarily believe in things because it has never happened to them, which, which is that. So, so, and that goes to the ghost of sexism, racism, ableism, lots of things that, that you that don't happen to you. And therefore you don't realize how common it is and how, how exhausting it is to live with it constantly. Yes. So, so, and, and a part of that is, is if I can, if I can educate the people around you, yeah, then hopefully that can make your life better in the middle. You know what I mean? That's true. That's so true. And I completely agree with you, because, you know, if I feel that the way you said that where you have work and women said that, oh, I don't want to work with new men that have to train, but you know, wherever you have left, you actually did better, because the other woman who will be joining there, they actually be more comfortable working there. So I feel that you're small, of course, now you're doing a lot, but those small efforts also helped a lot. Yeah, no, but it was, it was funny. I read a tweet the other day. I think you retweeted it. It was a woman. She said, I don't remember the exact wording, but it was something like the downside of breaking the glass ceiling is that you die of bleeding to death by all of the cuts on your body. But the upside of breaking the glass ceiling is that for the next person, it's already broken. That's true. But it's not so much fun if you're the one that was sacrificed in the process. I know. So it is hard. And it's one of the reasons why I think it's more, it's really important for senior women to talk about these things, because we have already built a lot of credibility, and so we can afford to spend some of that to say these things. That can be so difficult if you're a junior woman, because people will dismiss you because you are junior. And so I think it's very important for both senior women and men, like anyone who has that kind of technical credibility in their community to spend that technical credibility in opening doors for other people and for changing culture. And I think that is something that is easier to do once you have that in the community, that people will actually let you get away with it. No, to be honest, I'm very impressed because I think these small changes have led to bigger changes. And now you are speaking publicly a lot, which is amazing so that we say that every drop counts. So I feel that yes, this will totally help everyone. Coming to Academy, you had an amazing talk about problem solving. Of course, there are videos available already, but if there can be small one key message from your talk, what would be? The talk is centered around a model, and the model is a sense-making framework, that's what the creator calls it. But the idea here is that we are, as people in tech, in our different roles, we tend to solve problems in certain ways. And those ways are not the same across roles. And that has a lot to do with the problems that we have to solve in that kind of role. So if you are in operations, you might be more concerned with things like uptime and robustness and things like that. When you're coming from, let's say, product development, you're more concerned with ideas and trying them out and talking to users. And it's much more of a discovery kind of process. And if you're in incident response, it's more chaotic and you have to get it under control in some way. And these things are very different kinds of scenarios. And if you have these kinds of roles, you tend to work in a specific scenario most of the time. If you're in incident response, you're either preparing for a possible incident, you're in an incident, or you are learning from incidents. And so it's a very specific kind of thing. And so my talk is basically trying to describe through a team how all of these things are needed to work together. And it's a little bit to address what I've seen a lot in my career. And that is these culture clashes between different types of roles where a lot of times things are described as malicious when they're actually just people trying to do their job or trying to apply their normal skillset or their normal problem solving. And if we can suddenly realize that oh, they're used to operating in a different situation than I am and they have different things that they're measured on and the things that they need to produce or the things that they need to take care of, then you can suddenly realize that I'm really glad they're doing that because I'm not doing that. So somebody definitely needs to be doing that thing. And in that way, take away some of the artificial conflicts and more get to a mode of appreciating your colleagues that all have different functions in the company and in your team and try to see how that together you are better than you are apart. Yeah. So you have such I would say that inspiring story. I would really like to see what are you planning to do in future any upcoming project or are you planning to write a book? Everyone tells me to write a book. Yes, you can. I think your blog was amazing. So I'm sure that your book will also be. Oh, but the thing is I kind of want to write a book but I'm also terrified of writing a book. So I don't know if I'll ever write a book or if I write a book, maybe I'll just write a fiction book one day. So currently our company is growing a little bit and that's super exciting. So very soon we'll be five employees in our company. Yes. So that will be super exciting. And the thing is just like my dream probably is to make a browser. Unfortunately, I have to figure out how that could be sustainable. But that is my dream. So I do play around. I have a browser code base that I play with which is Chromium Blink based. And if I had unlimited funds, that's what I probably would do. But we all got to get paid. So it's slow going but maybe I can figure something out, at least to do something a bit slowly and get something going. No, no, hopefully I will pray that you are successful in it and we will be the users hopefully for that browser. Thank you. It has a cute UI. Definitely you will, I'm sure you will figure it out that somehow you will launch it. Thank you so much for your time and I really had an amazing time with you and I feel that your this interview will definitely help a lot of women in industry. I hope so. Thank you so much.