 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined by Mr. Jim Uding from Dixon Drums. Jim, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It's an honor. You yourself are the brand manager, the U.S. brand manager with St. Louis Music, who kind of represents the U.S. distribution of Dixon. Is that correct? That's correct. Absolutely. All right, Jim. So, you know, you search Dixon online and there isn't much info, so I think people will be really eager to learn more about this brand. So, teach us about Dixon Drums. Well, good. Well, you know, what's kind of interesting is me as the brand owner is that I've been sort of involved in its evolution in the market, let's say. So, St. Louis Music is the exclusive distributor. We are a, we're in the middle of the country and we distribute all sorts of brands and accessories to music stores all over the country and we even do international business. So, Dixon fits into our mix very well. So, in 1979, the brand owner, which is Taiwan based, began making musical instruments, very simple musical instruments for customers. And, you know, the actual label for this sort of thing is OEM, which, you know, usually here tied to the automobile industry or what, but it's an industry term that stands for original equipment manufacture. And these are people that, by contract, make product for other brands. And the drum industry is, it applies. So, during that period where brands like Pearl and Tama, you know, were all coming up as new and strong brands, the parent company of Dixon decided to go the OEM route and be a manufacturer rather than a brand owner, say, marketer. So, what this does is it gave them extensive experience and knowledge of manufacturing high-quality instruments. And the result ended up being, and this is a common evolution for an OEM manufacturer is since you build the capacity, create the capacity to build great instruments, it's sort of an insurance policy to create your own brand. It's just that you're an expert manufacturer, not a marketer. Dixon actually first sort of broke in Europe by brand name, and it was a variety of instruments. In the U.S., you started to see a presence by this brand owner in drumming and distribution, but not necessarily specifically with Dixon. So, even though they started in 79, that was basically just simply in manufacturing instruments. It was then, say, early 80s, mid-80s that you started to see bits and pieces of the actual Dixon brand start to hit music stores. And what's cool about my history is that I started out and spent 25 years in drum shop retail. And we used to sell Dixon hardware, which at that time was pretty much known as high quality or affordable like your first symbol boom stand or bass drum pedal. There were also certain drums, mainly snare drums, and then beginner drum sets. And before we went on air, you mentioned that you had a Dixon set. Yes. And I actually don't think I've ever mentioned that on the podcast for some odd reason, because in my brain, I was like, well, I look at it and I think, okay, Greg Bissonette, Dixon high end. And I was like, well, wait, was it a Dixon or was it, you know how those brands of beginner kits have a thousand different names? But yes, it was white. It was a five piece Dixon set. I actually didn't have it for super long. It was kind of one of those things where I, my first kit was percussion plus. All right. So then someone is selling a Dixon kit where I went to school with, okay, I bought that. And then I believe I traded it up towards a Ludwig rocker set. But before we get back to it, the person I bought it from that family, my brother ended up marrying the guy who I bought it from sister. So it was like this kind of bizarre, how did that work out thing? But yes, it was a five piece white Dixon, great drums, absolutely great beginner cut. And what you're on to is the secret. In fact, when I started in 2011 as brand manager, one of my challenge was sort of combating this perception that Dixon was always the economical choice. Well, what's interesting is, is because of their experience and depth of understanding on how to make premium instruments, it trickled down to the lower price points, which were the only things available in the US. So you are actually getting a really good value at the lower price point, because they were so capable of it. Yes. And so I started to notice this as I would do trade shows and be in public is people would have these stories about a favorite snare drum or drum thrown or starter drum set. And it was always real positive comments. And this is why, and from that experience, one of the early interviews that I did to sort of help break the brand is I just kind of coined the phrase, the best kept secret in drums, because people didn't realize that this brand that they bought because it was affordable happened to be coming from a really experienced brand company that had their and that quality was a priority. So it, you know, everybody who bought something Dixon was onto something and didn't realize it. Yes, ahead of the curve, I tell you. Yeah. No, I mean, really though. And then, but those like stuff like that, though, you get like a symbol stand or a throne. And like you hang on to that and you then maybe change your drums out. But the hardware, I remember being great, where you can then use that with your future, you know, you upgrade your shells or whatever. So that's pretty cool. It is it is a bit of a secret. And on and just to reinforce what you just said, in my retail drum shop days, you know, and being a drum shop, you always wanted to make sure you were giving your customer the right item, the right product. And we would even have pros that would buy the hardware because it was lighter duty. And we were talking, you know, in an age where things couldn't be heavy enough. But the thing that we noticed in talking about cloning phrases, we used to say, well, if it ain't broke, it must be Dixon. And this is why because the value was very high. It makes me think of the, you know, the made in Japan, the Japanese brands and all that stuff, which, you know, kind of swept in and took a lot of the market away from the American brands. Now, this being a Taiwanese brand, how or MIT, as sometimes people refer to it, how was that market viewed, you know, in as as compared to that revolution really of like those stencil kits that came in, I think the Japanese one started 60s, 70s. So the Taiwanese stuff came in in the 80s. It seemed like it was it was more common place to have those brands in the market then. Yeah. If I remember, if I remember, we saw it go from U.S. to Japan to Taiwan to China. Yeah. And and, you know, when you deal with drums on a daily basis for 25 years, you hold it in your hand, you see it come back or not come back. You know, it's pretty obvious. So we always had a great respect for the product that came from Taiwan. And and and I believe I really believe there's still a difference. And, you know, I've even asked those questions and the answers are usually based around, well, it's, you know, the experience, the level of craftsmanship, you know, the consistency of, you know, they're the labor force there and just simply knowing how to do it right and the standards of the factory owners, which reflects in the in the quality of the product. So yeah. And that's why, and if I can just kind of, you know, put the story now together is the initial distributor of Dixon products in the U.S. who is now no longer here. They positioned Dixon, they only brought in the lower price points to keep from competing against other brands that they offered. So they positioned it, you know, at no benefit to the brand, you know, the brand and that's why it's always been kind of a value perception and a slow boat to developing a brand image. And then the fact that it's connected to an OEM manufacturer, you know, who it's no secret they also have other contracts and customers in the industry that you really don't want, they don't, it's not to their best interest to talk too much about themselves because they're kind of competing. So, you know, this sort of thing, now that it's a global, you know, economy and and it's not that hard to source manufacturers. This is not, you know, a critical secret. Yeah. But that's what makes Dixon different than most brands is that it is, it's just, it's exclusively distributed in the U.S. The brand owner isn't, you know, running the show. But the point is where like a pearl has their own corporate headquarters and hands on in the U.S. We are, you know, a partner, a distribution partner. And as a result, we're working closely together. Gotcha. It almost, I mean, it sounds like, and I looked a lot on like different drum forums today just to kind of, again, look a little deeper into histories and things. And one thing that kind of just kept popping up was there's not really many negative comments. There's like, everyone was just saying on just all the different forums was these are great drums for an affordable price. Like, you're not the snares are great. I didn't really read many bad things at all. Actually, I didn't read a single bad thing. And I do think it goes back to, I have heard so many good things about the factories in Taiwan about how they're really like craftsmen. You know, you sometimes, I don't know, sometimes things like that get a bad connotation of it's, oh, it's not made in America. How good could it be? I don't, I think it's pretty well known now that like drums made in Taiwan at a certain level are very, very high quality. And the the vibe I'm getting to is that, like you said, you're getting all the experience of those other, they've been making high end drums for all these other companies. Now, you're just kind of buying their you know, their version of it with with the Dixon brand on it. And it's a little more affordable because they're already making them or, you know, they're cranking them out. Why not slap their the Dixon name on it and and get a great drum set. Yes. And and make it their own. And yeah, of course, there's a there's a lot of, you know, there's a there's a lot of ideals in play here. So yes, if if it's not about where it's made, for whatever reason, and we just focus on the fact that it is made in Taiwan. And also this, you know, how I explained that, you know, all along people were buying great value because of all the things pride, standards, processes, commitment, you know, those are the things that always, always result in a in a in a fine product. Yes. And so, you know, all along it, you know, all along the reason why there's not a lot of negatives about Dixon other than this misunderstanding that it's only inexpensive gear is that there's there's always been value for though all of those reasons. And so what what happened to kind of continue to follow the storyline is as the original distributor went was out of the equation. The parent company went the the brand owner went looking for a new partner and that was 2011. And that was St. Louis music. And at that time, I just happened to be closing my drum shop. And in order for St. Louis music to ink this deal, they had to have a qualified person in place to champion the brand to become the marketer. So also remember 2011, you know, is it, you know, it was kind of beginning of challenges for the acoustic drum industry, you know, electronics, taking a big part of the market share. Less and less live music and live shows to inspire young drummers. Yeah. All sort of options for kids to play, you know, video games and and sports, you know, as opposed to diving into the drums. And then on top of that, we had this perception issue. And that's why I coined this best kept secret and drums thing. Yeah. So what is so cool is I understand why there are no negative comments because of the quality. And that still exists. And it still exists because of the commitment of the family who owns the brand, the commitment to the people in their factories and making it. And then the fact that, you know, it's still, you know, even though I think there's less acoustic drummers than ever, there's still just as many brands, if not more. So there's still a lot of competition. So it takes a while to get that message across. And part of what's helped Dixon is the fact that we do have those people that have had experiences in the past. And then in 2018, we went through a branding change, a new logo that was really a defining moment for Dixon, because it allowed us to sort of shed that label that went along with the with the perceived value. Yeah, I mean, the logo is cool. Like everything, like looking on your guys website, which is PlayDixon.com. I mean, these are beautiful drums. Like these are no joke. And actually, there was a recent episode about the gigging drummer survival guide that had Chris Georginas, who's a great gigging drummer. He talked about, he was just like gushing about how much he loves his Dixon bass drum pedal and how great it is. And I'll send it to you so you can hear it. And he actually said that he had an issue with it and something broke on the pedal and he contacted you guys through like Instagram or something. And I think you either send him a replacement part or a new pedal and everything was fixed and up and running within like a week. So your reputation is growing. You can't build that overnight. I mean, you know, and really jumping in, you know, like you said, the 80s and 90s was when it really started to like, you know, become that's still pretty new. That is very new. I mean, we're talking about companies from 1883 and 1909. And I mean, though, like, it's, it takes, you just got to put in the work and do the grind and get the reputation. And you guys are certainly doing that. And it's pretty cool that you can just pull these resources from the factory and right and make your own beautiful drums with it. Yes. In fact, sometimes we have to say, wait a minute, hold on, don't develop so fast. But you know, that's, that's a great thing because it's better than not having enough things to talk about. And if you follow Dixon social media, because that comes from the brand owner is you will see exciting things that, you know, you know, it might be drums that they make special order for a distributor in another country. So you're kind of seeing a real time. But, you know, unfortunately, it takes us a while to decide, okay, well, that's something we're going to add to the US catalog. And then we have to get it on order, get it manufactured, get it in. So sometimes it take can take almost a year to actually, you know, provide what you see. But I think that's kind of an interesting, fun characteristic of Dixon is you sort of get the global sense rather than just the home market sense. So yeah, never a dull moment. Absolutely. One thing I really want to talk about, there's there's a couple of things. But you know, you guys did a smart thing by linking up with Greg Bissonette, because monster player world famous drummer, really, I don't think he would play anything that he doesn't believe in or like. He's to me, your guys biggest brand ambassador. So what's the story with getting Greg on board with Dixon? Good. Okay. So remember, so when Dixon came to St. Louis music, it now opened up the full line. There were no restrictions, no limits, no strategy to, you know, to keep it from creating another another competitor within the market. So we we basically opened up the whole brand. So now we were another full line manufacturer. Remember, there's a big difference between someone who just makes drum kits or snare drums and someone who can make everything from drum keys to, you know, $5,000 dream drum sets. And that's who Dixon is. So what we did is, you know, we initially started off off by, you know, getting our offering together, mainly based on price points, so we could be competitive. So then the next phase was to put together a marketing strategy. And even though, you know, the artist, the endorsement has changed a lot, its value and its place in marketing has changed a lot, we still needed that ambassador, as you said, or that figurehead or that identity for the brand. And so we started to, you know, do our research. And my past, you know, really helped with that. And we identified Greg as not as not only just being a great personality and known for like doing drum clinics, which was great, you know, grassroots marketing, which we needed, we needed to get in the stores and get hands on with everybody to show them what Dixon really is. But the thing about Greg is his incredible versatility. You know, the guy started with Maynard Ferguson. He has a degree in music education from North Texas State. He has a minor in trumpet, which most people don't know. His headline gig then became David Lee Roth. And after that, it was this just incredibly established session reputation in LA and having toured and played with such a variety of musicians. And of course, his main gig, which he is on tour with, right as we speak, is being, you know, Ringo Starr's right hand man for the Ringo Starr All-Star Band. And not only is that his dream, that again is another example of his versatility. So, you know, that if anybody can represent full line drums and hardware, it's a guy like Greg. And then you add in, you know, talk about no negative feedback, you know, just him as a person, just a genuine person and a mentor, nothing but great things. So he was perfect. So we reached out to him. We knew it wouldn't be easy because, you know, Greg's not one of those guys that would jump from brand to brand. He had been with his previous brand, I think, for 14 years. So he, you know, we had a similar conversation we're having now. I explained him who Dixon is and who St. Louis Music is and who Jim Uding is and what we were trying to achieve. And he liked the idea of going from being recognized with an established brand to be recognized as someone who identified Dixon as a value full line provider of drums with sort of a focus on new drummers rather than, you know, just trying to chase the past. So he liked what that did for him. And so in 2014, we signed him to his first, to his an endorsement contract. And the funny thing was that was April and he was due to go out with Ringo like 60 days later. So we had to quickly put together a kid of his choice, which we did. And it ended up being on that tour and to this day, the drums are still on stage or in studio wherever Greg is. Wow. I can't believe, I mean, too, it's like, it's pretty cool that like, I mean, just as someone who I love Ringo, I love the Beatles, but it's like, you think to yourself that they would force Greg to play like Ludwig just for like history's sake, you know what I mean? Or just like the aesthetic of it or he everyone has to play a black oyster pearl kit. Pretty cool that I mean, you don't get much bigger than being on stage with Ringo. I mean, that is a grand slam of an endorser. And I'm looking at the artist page on your website. It seems like it's it's pretty cool. And for people who want to play Dixon and I'm not saying everyone should write in an email to Jim and say, can I get endorsed by Dixon because I'm sure, you know, no one wants to get inundated with those emails, but it's cool to like represent a brand that's a little bit, I guess you would say, you could say smaller in the big picture than some of the giant ones where there's so many huge massive players where you can represent a brand where you could stick out for playing these drums as kind of an up and coming drummer. If that makes sense, like there's more room to grow in the in the and represent and get support from Dixon and really showcase the brand. Again, it's it's not a 150 year old brand. So there's lots of room to grow. Yeah. And, you know, and endorsements are a tricky thing. And it's changed a whole lot. And because of my variety of experience, especially seeing a lot of it across the retail counter with drummers specifically, you know, I've seen, you know, those success stories, those disappointments, those aspirations. And even today, I'll tell you, you know, as part of my day, very little is spent on, okay, well, who are we going to sign next? Who are we looking for? Yes, that's an aspect of it. But, you know, artists are kind of taking care of that themselves with YouTube. You can create your own, you know, draw our identity, our celebrity yourself. In fact, one of our latest signings is a is a great young guy named Zach Groves. His name is actually Zach Gabel, but his YouTube handle is Zach Groves. And we love Zach because he's an educated, highly talented drummer with a great personality, and it's infectious. So in his regular YouTube posts, he gives you everything you want. But the cool thing is, is he actually includes in depth understanding of drumming and his passion for drumming and his technique and the style. So, you know, it's deep. So you get the fun, but you don't realize you're actually learning about drums from him. And that's why he fits Dixon because we're a full line brand. We cater to all drummers of all styles and interests. And he's the kind of guy that can appeal. So that's a good example for someone today, thinking, you know, maybe I could, I could get an endorsement. Well, really what it is, it's about the whole package. And it's the complete package. It's not about potential. And, you know, a lot of times someone will come and say, man, Dixon drums, they're great. I love them. I think I could represent them. Well, then the next question is, well, do you own Dixon? And they don't. So, you know, that's just some little advice is that no matter who you feel like you're going to approach and your career has gotten to the point where you feel like you can be a value to a brand is you need to have that develop package that uh, immediately represents value, then the brand sees if it fits where they're going and that if there's benefit to both sides and it's kind of rare where very few people hit that nail on the head. Yeah. I mean, I, I, we, I feel like growing up in the 2000s, I, you know, I was the, like many of the people listening, I was the 16 year old who thought it will magically happen where one of the big drum brands will call you and just say, we want to have you, you bring nothing to the table. You, you barely play that many shows, but we're going to give you a free drum set. Right. And just, you, yeah, that's the thing that most people understand. I realize this isn't a session on endorsements and probably do one on it. Yeah. Is that, you know, you know, it really isn't, it's not 100% about skill. You know, there's a lot of great drummers that, that, that could easily represent brands, but it just doesn't fit in, in the days when you were 16 and I was 16 when all those live shows and tours were happening and that was basically, you know, the core of, of the exposure for the brands, you know, there were signings left and right. And then all at once, these rosters end up being huge and you end up with too many people to service. Yeah. And you're just kind of hoping that one of them, you know, ends up in that, you know, top 10, you know, tours, but since now that isn't the case, it's a little more defined because, you know, it's almost like the roles have switched where the brand wants to be endorsed by the artist than the artist endorsed by the brand. Sure. And so that's why it doesn't happen as often and that's why it's not as big of a priority for the brands. And that's why when someone does sign a deal and really it's not a deal, it's just an agreement of, you know, this is what we can do for you and this is what, you know, you can do for us. And this is our mutual goal. It's not about dollars. It's about exposure and credibility. Yeah. So, but, but again, that was very different in the heyday because it was all about getting your drums on stage and hoping that it ends up being in front of hundreds of thousands of people rather than hundreds or thousands of people. Yes. Yeah, it really goes a long way. But to you do need that one cornerstone guy to kind of be on the map and Greg does it and does a phenomenal job. And he really is a I have I listen to the Beatles radio on Sirius XM like every day I've had a trial that I've been milking for like a year where I threaten to cancel and they keep giving it to me. But and Greg will be on there every once in a while playing grooves and he'll he'll talk about playing trumpet and stuff and just a phenomenal person to represent it. And and I think nowadays, as you said, social media is so important that maybe the next mega star who does come along, which I'm looking at Zach on your artist page and he seems like it could be him. But that's now that like you said that is where you go is is you you see these faces and and it's just got to be mutually beneficial. Hey guys, I'm excited to announce I just became a partner with Drumeo and I can now offer a free 30 day trial of Drumeo to my listeners and viewers. And I think you guys are going to really like it. Find the link in my description for a free 30 day trial of Drumeo. Now, let me ask you a couple questions. So I was looking on again on the drum forums and I saw some people asking a couple questions just to themselves like what do you guys know? Once one person was talking about there was at some point a collaboration between Dixon and Brady drums, which is Australian. Is there any info you can share about that? Yes. In fact, it kind of connects some of the dots because Brady being a great drum manufacturer needed parts that he couldn't produce himself. So he was a OEM customer of the parent company or the brand owner. There's where the relationship starts. And that's another important thing. We all know music, whether it's music business, whether it's playing or manufacturing is a lot about relationships. And that's no different for even the factory sources. And so a strong relationship grew between the brand owner and Brady drums. So not only were they a customer, again, the roles reversed. So Dixon asked to purchase a wood, some sort of wood indigenous to Australia to produce a Dixon drum. And that ended up being what was called Australian Rose gum. And it's a it's a series of three or four snare drums in our lineup. And they're just considered the Chris Brady. In fact, they have a label inside that ties him to sourcing that material. And to this day, from day one, and I'm in this now 11 years, those are my favorite snare drums in the world. Awesome. Yeah, Brady drums. I mean, I've been working. There's an episode I've been talking with the family a little bit. And I'm going to say his name wrong, probably, but Michael Gorovich, I believe has been helping me and connecting me with Chris's daughter to do an episode on it. But Kelly, yeah, but you need to do it justice. And it needs to be done right. And you can't rush some things. But yeah, it's an interesting story, I think, and quite the builder, you know, every drum brand, especially when it's a family like that is always a great story. Yeah. And the Brady's are no exception. Great people. Okay, cool. So another question that would was going around on the forums that I feel like I can voice while I have you here is people were saying that they said, Oh, I think the Gretch renown series is made in the same factory. Is there truth to that? Yes, there is. And like I said, being an established OEM manufacturer, I think it's safe to say that they've made drums pretty much for everyone, most everyone, you know, it might even been a snare throw off or a butt plate or lugs, just something. And in many cases, you know, it doesn't even mean they assembled those drums. So yes, I will say that, yeah, there have been Gretch drums throughout the years that have come from the parent company, the brand owner of Dixon. Sure. And like, but we got to shake that like feeling of like that that would be a negative thing. It's not a negative thing. It's like it's not a negative, not at all. Yeah, it's it's manufacturing reality. Because like I said, OEM is is tied to the automobile business. They can't make every part that goes into a car, just like no manufacturer can make every part that that goes into a drum set, especially when, you know, once you have all these price points, when you may be a great high end drum manufacturer and you want to add midline like Gretch, but you're just not set up to make those and meet that price point. So you go and look for a manufacturer that can represent your brand, your quality, your standard, your expectations. And that's why Dixon's owner was such a go to because of that quality standard that is built into every Dixon drum kit. It's just a natural process. Yeah, that's interesting of just saying, okay, we're a super high end drum maker. And like you're saying, like, well, we want to expand and we want to offer our brand to the younger generation. I'm sure they would partner with Dixon or the parent company, I mean, and and then like it to me, I hear some parallels to the Keller drum shells where there's a myth about it's Keller shells. But when I when I spoke with Keller, it would be a discussion about, well, no, everyone's got their own formula. Everyone's got their own. So I think that's what I'm gathering is that it doesn't detract anything. It's not like there's this this giant production line of the same exact thing coming out. And then you just slap a different logo on it. It seems like there is special care taken for each individual brand. Right, it's a recipe. And you know, that's how the OEM process works. You go to any OEM company in any industry and you say, here's the part we need. Here are the specs, here are the drawings, you know, there's, there's privacy that's taken into account there. And then they quote and build based on that spec. So just like, you know, you might see, you know, a part on a Dixon drum set that you may have seen on it on another brand from time to time. But that's very far and few between and as you develop your brand, you tend to develop what's called proprietary. So items that are exclusive to your brand. So, you know, that happens early on in a brand's development. It happened. You know, that used to be pretty prevalent when I was in retail and seeing products come through, you would see this evolution happen as a brand develops confidence in a price point or a category and then they continue to develop and make it their own. But but yeah, it's really, you know, you know, the whole OEM aspect of Dixon's history is its strongest asset, its biggest asset now. Totally. And so you get all that experience in one brand in Dixon and showed early on before everybody knew what the deal was and it's evident now and it's the reason why even as the brand owner, I don't get any negative comments. In fact, it's surprising and it's fun and that's fun part about being part of Dixon is when people discover just what it is. Yeah. You know, and sorry, I tend to ramble on. No, go but there's a lot of information. But this is a funny story that I will share. I've been to Taiwan many times to deal face to face with everybody involved that that's, you know, another recipe, you know, ingredient to the success or the momentum we have. Sure. And so a friend of mine said, you know, next time you go over there, you need to ask them why these drums sound so good, because, you know, they're all, you know, drums aren't rocket science. You know, they're either maple or birch shells and pretty much the similar implies and, you know, you put a drum head on and you tune it right. Okay. And I said, you know, you're right. I'm going to ask that question. So I was sitting in in the right place in front of the right people one day and the person that I deal directly with, I had him ask the, what we call the high end factory owner. So we never, I said, we never hear any complaints. We get nothing but grave reviews over the sound of the drums. Why is that? So my partner translated my question and the factory owner and his, you know, first in charge, they conversed back and forth for a while. And then they shared an answer with my partner in Chinese and my partner looked at me and goes, they don't know. Oh man. It's like, but that was, that was, yeah, well, that was the short thing. And then we went on to, you know, to conclude that it's just simply, they don't know because they just do what they do and have done for so long. And you don't, if it ain't broke, you don't fix it. So it's quality materials, quality workmanship, consistent workmanship. And then all those other ingredients like, you know, stay the art machinery, understanding, you know, the bearing edge, you know, how it needs to be sanded, is it true? And that's the culmination of all those things we've discussed so far throughout this discussion coming together. And then you add a world class player like a Greg Bisonette and, you know, with awesome technique and the right mics that are listening and the right people that are setting it up and tuning and totally and that's what you get. And that's what's cool is, you know, some people think that the product that ends up on Ringo stage is different than the product that shows up at their doorstep. It's not, it is the same thing. And so anytime you buy a Dixon drum set, and I can only speak for Dixon is you have that potential, you have the tools. So now it's a matter of you, you know, understanding how to tune with the right heads for your style, but it all boils down to understanding and developing your technique as a player, because that's part of the sound too. And, and that's part of the, you know, drumming journey that's just infectious because there's always this, you know, lifetime, this lifetime search for not only the right instruments, but the right tweaks and the right, you know, way to play them. Yes. And that's why acoustic drums can only deliver that. So if you're listening to this and you have an electronic drum set, great. But those sounds came from acoustic drums. That's true. Boy, I've never heard that. Never heard that before. That's a great way to put it from someone who understands, you know, how to play them correctly. So if you really want the full, you know, drumming experience, it's, it's waiting for you in an acoustic drum set, a Dixon acoustic drum set. Yes, yes. And that's so funny. But really asking some, it's like asking someone who's like a great painter, like, why are you so good? Well, they're usually go, I don't know. It's because they've practiced forever, or obviously in our case. It's never easy. No, why is someone such a great drummer? It's because they've practiced. It's because they've done it for such a long time. Now, without going, you know, inch by inch, can you just maybe explain to people what a drum factory in Taiwan is like? Because I've heard, like, as you said, very state of the art, very high end, very clean, very passionate workers, great people, great artists with paint and the finishes. But so in general, what is it like? The organization is just incredible. You know, it's, you know, it's like everybody, somebody knows where everything is. And but it's, it's like a, you know, Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory are, you know, Santa's workshop experience. Yeah. But, you know, it all starts with, you know, the the plies of wood, you know, in a in a giant room in the basement of the factory. And then it's like you just, you know, go up each floor is a different level. And by the time you get to the top, you know, they're they're putting drum heads on and law and screwing on lugs. So, you know, you just think it is a as a drum starts as a bunch of flat plies of, of, you know, quality wood. And then they're assembled into drum shells. So there's a big area of just finished, you know, wooden shells of all sizes that smells wonderful. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, I love that. And then, you know, and then they're, and really then the shells are, are picked per order. And, you know, it starts with a sanding process, a finishing process, a lacquering process. You know, and I didn't even mention, you know, the bearing edges. And then by the end, they're drilling holes and buffing. And like I said, and then it ends up in an area where hardware is being, you know, attached and assembled. And, and then, you know, there's other areas where shells might be drying. And what my favorite part is where the drums are finished, and they're on these racks, and they're waiting for the next step, which is to be, you know, packaged. So you see all these cool drum sets and different finishes going to different places around the world for different reasons. And you just know that there's a happy drummer on the other end. So true. But these factories are not huge. You know, they're not crowded with people. You know, the drum business is small. But these factories are busy because of the broad nature of their, you know, customer base. And it's a matter of organization. And they have that down to a science and its commitment. But again, and I'll always say this because this comes from my, my roots is that it's a relationship business. And, you know, I've never, you know, I've never heard a negative thing about the product. And I've never heard or have experienced a negative, you know, thing about anyone involved from all aspects. And even if they're not drummers, they're passionate about what they're doing. And there's always excited to talk to drummers about, you know, where their products, you know, just for us to tell, you know, the factory that, you know, people just want to know why the drum sounds so good. You know, to them that was like, well, why wouldn't they sound great? Yeah. So, so that's, that's what makes my job so, so good is that bottom line is not only are you making people happy. You understand what that does for you personally. Yeah. No, that's awesome. Is wood for factories like this typically sourced in Taiwan or are logs brought in from around the world? I mean, I've never really thought about that. No, they, they buy from around the world. There's all obviously restrictions and, and limitations to that that they have to abide by. But I think what it is, is when they have the opportunity to buy, they do it. And that's why there's, you know, its own warehouse, you know, and again, going back to the Brady scenario is they saw a way to incorporate you know, Brady drums into the Dixon lineup. So they committed to that purchase. And then, and then also, you know, in that situation, you're also trying to do it without stepping on their toes. So it was a wood they weren't using. And they, it was limited only to snare drums. And so those are important to the equation too. Absolutely. It's very interesting. It's, it's, it's kind of a glimpse behind the curtain, as you said, it's a secret thing. And I think it's neat to hear about this. But yeah, so we should talk a little bit here, kind of getting closer to the end. We should talk about the different series of Dixon drums, because there's a handful. There's Artisan, Cornerstone, Fuse, Jet Set Plus, little rumor, which is really cool. And then Spark. But go ahead and just tell us about, you know, the different series of drums. Yeah. In fact, this is the perfect time for that, because that's going through sort of a renewal. And it's largely due to COVID. And what COVID did in, in raising the cost on everything from labor to materials, it threw pretty much every drum brand into a tizzy as to far as where, you know, your price points sat. And so what that did is it caused everybody to take a hard look at your lineup, including Dixon. So our lineup, you know, hardware wasn't affected so much as drums. And that's pretty much staying, staying the same, even though there's tweaks going on there. But for drums, you're going to see it basically end up being Spark, which are our complete outfits for drummers that need everything. Then the step up from that for someone who once, you know, expects a little bit more, you know, from the start or is ready for that hard-earned upgrade. There's just kind of a half step up. And that's going to be called, is called, Spark Birch. In fact, both of those series just arrived here at St. Louis Music and are starting to trickle out in stores. So this is very real time. Cool. So Spark and Spark Birch basically are Dixon's under $1,000 price points. Spark, which comes, like I said, with everything in one box, has a really neat approach to it. And this is what happens when you get the chance to sort of rethink things. So if you think about it, and even if you go on, you know, in your favorite music store or online today, you know, you walk in and there's five piece drum sets. Well, but if you go and you start looking at music on YouTube or, you know, on a late night talk show tonight, you'll see most drummers are playing four piece kits. Yeah, true. Okay. So why are we all, you know, buying and selling five piece drum sets? Well, it's the standard. But what we did with Spark, since this is your first kit that you want to be able to grow with for a bit and have some options, it actually comes with a holder that can convert your drum set into that one Tom up. Oh, cool. Four piece configuration. But when you take that second Tom off, it comes with an extra symbol arm to pop in there and then place your ride symbol right there in that, you know, perfect spot. Plus the kits now come with a set of mesh nylon mesh batter heads. So you can convert to a silent practice option. So this is the first time that all these options came in one package at the entry level to me ever. So that's something to look for. And then Spark birch gives you that upgraded features like spurs and Tom holder and things that have to be scaled down to get the price lower on some of these complete outfits. But it also has an all birch shell and it has a stained lacquer finish where Spark has wraps. So it's all these little nicer things for a little more money that is more of an investment in a commitment. So then from there, we go into what I call working pro drums. And it's funny because you use the term cornerstone earlier. This series is called cornerstone. Yes, that was not on purpose. That was and we love those drums. Oh, yeah. And that's going to be the kind of kit that's like, you know what, I'm ready for some pro drums. I want to make sure that if I go for a, you know, an audition or if I go into record, you know, no one's going to, you know, equipment's not going to be the concern. Yeah, but it's not big money. But it's all big money features. And it's all of that, you know, Dixon experience in that package. So then from there, it goes to the dream kits and that's artisan. And that's where you can pretty much build your own dream drum set. Yes, there are, you know, pre package kits that we offer just to get them quick. But there's a custom order scenario that you would do through a Dixon dealer. But that's where, you know, it's colors and shell types and hardware, even hardware colors are available. So it's basically boiling down to that spark spark birch cornerstone artisan. Then in the middle are the compact drums. Jet set plus in 2023 is no longer going to be available in the US. It could be worldwide. But it's that's our choice is the distributor. We decided that we're going to hone in only on a little rumor as our compact option because there's less novelty involved. It's more like little drums, but smaller. And it's been very successful for us. So that's sort of a little subcategory. Totally. And the little rumor, I mean, those seem pretty affordable too. I mean, they don't seem what is a little rumor kit typically cost someone. It starts as a shell pack like everything else except for spark that, you know, everybody needs everything to start with. Anyway, our shell packs. So little rumor is offered in a five piece shell pack, but that's the, you know, the thin seven by 20 base drum, a 10 inch tom, a 13 inch floor tom, a little 10 inch snare and a little six inch mountable tambourine, which makes up the five pieces, which, by the way, it's an age old misunderstanding of what makes up a drum set. What makes a drum set a five piece drum set? So if you have a drum set and you want to refer to it in pieces, you only count the drums. You don't count everything else. Yes. Yes. Now, I remember the show Freaks and Geeks that was on years ago and very good show, but the guy, they all became famous actors, but he was building the, you know, a huge 100 piece drum set, but he was counting a cowbell. He was counting the sticks. So yeah, that's, that's not what you, what you, what you want official, unofficial. It's unofficial. It's unofficial. No, these are awesome. I got to just back up too and say that the spark with the, that everyone had it where they'd want to convert their five piece to a four piece, but then you have a Tom Mount with one arm sticking out all the time that just looks, it looks like it wasn't right. So it's very innovative. And I'm just getting that, that feeling that like, yeah, you're taking all this innovation that you guys have been doing forever for other companies and you're putting it in your most affordable kits. Like I would buy the artisan kit as because it's just unbelievable looking, but I would also think for like, you know, when my son gets he's three right now, but when he gets to be, you know, 12, 13, 14, 16, these are just like a perfect, here's your first real drum set. And then, and like, like we said, way early on, take those, keep those cymbal stands, keep that bass drum pedal upgrade as you go. But it's a great starting point and awesome. Yeah. And I have sort of my own little mantra that I, I work by because, you know, I'm always thinking about, you know, what's influencing young drummers. And since the things that influence me are less and less. So as a, you know, I wear many hats in my role, but when I partner with the brand owner and contribute my experience to bring about this result, I'm always thinking in terms of new drummers. I think there's plenty of great products there to, you know, to cater to, you know, experienced drummers. Sure. So, you know, for Dixon, I believe it's more about honoring the past than chasing the past. And I think it's more about what I call playing to the future. So ours is more or less an interest in the future of drumming and future drummers. And that's why I like the impact that people like Zach Groves has on young drummers. And then as a brand to back it up, we need to make sure that we keep developing on the entry side of it, of drumming, because, you know, we, we, you got to have new drummers to play new drum sets. And, and to me, you know, you know, I mean, drumming goes back to beginning of time. It's primal. So there won't be a lack of people who have rhythm. It's just that we need to continue to show them and the parents who support them and the grandparents and all those people that buy drums for Christmas or birthdays that Dixon is not only a smart choice, it's history makes it a value choice. But most importantly, it shows you why you're buying something that you're going to take home and hit. So it's got to have some quality to it. And it has to have some rhyme or reason so that it doesn't get pushed in the corner. And, and it's something that inspires the drummer and makes them want to continue to play and want to continue to experiment. And you only get that with the acoustic drum world. And it's not because there's less people interested in playing drums. I think there's less people exposed in the right way. And, and those are long term projects. Those are long term term goals for a brand. But that's the track that Dixon is on. And it's going to make it successful because the cool thing is, especially with our new branding, which is a little, you know, a little different than the legacy brands is that young drummers, you know, they don't have that experience with Ringo and Ludwig and, and those brands. So when they buy a spark kit, not only are they discovering drums, they're discovering brands. And we want to make Dixon the kind of brand that makes you passionate about not only playing, but what you're playing. And our history, which is the whole purpose of this video, plays right into that. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and you need the drums to last longer than a year and not fall apart because everything looks good in the picture on the website. But once you play it and you, you know, bang the hell out of it for a year. These seem like they're very well made in the hardware. I mean, it's just again, it's that background and experience. Yeah. But yeah. And I think the way to sum that up is that, you know, if something is less expensive, especially a drum, there's a reason for that. There has to be a reason for that. And usually there's less metal involved. So there is a point where an upgrade is necessary. And that's what, you know, and Dixon is a full line drum brand. So you can eventually upgrade. But the point is, is that when you choose Dixon, you're going to end up with the best value, which has been its past and its history and its commitment and standard. You're going to buy the best quality at that level. And now with innovations like this configuration, this conversion option with Spark, you know, then, then there's value and it just continues to help you develop further. But there are, there's always that time where there's an upgrade necessary. And then one other point I'm going to make that, you know, can be a little controversial among people who sell drums and manufacture drums, but Spark doesn't come with the greatest symbols in the world. In fact, they're unbranded. And there's a reason for that is because to me, you know, symbols and drums are two different worlds. The drums are the thunder, the symbols are the lightning. Okay. And symbols, as you know, and I'm sure you've done podcasts on this, you know, choosing symbols is a lifetime thing. So my opinion is, and it was our opinion as putting this package together is let's put something together that completes the outfit, doesn't inflate the price, and then gives the drummer the option to then, you know, slowly kind of move to that next phase, which is choosing his symbols that fit his style and his, his preference. So when you're buying drums, don't buy drums because of the symbols that comes with my drums because of the hardware, the drums, the color, what makes you excited. And so that's something that you know, is one of those things you don't normally hear. Yeah. And I agree. And I do think that like part of, you know, everyone's different, but I think part of being a drummer is, you know, your birthday, you get, you know, maybe you get a high hat top. And then for Christmas, you get a high hat bottom. And then you get your crash. And then maybe you put your birthday and Christmas together and get a ride. You know what I mean? It's if there's nothing wrong with you, if you can splurge and buy the artisan series with a set of Ks or, you know, whatever, 602s, whatever brand you're into, great, awesome. But I think for most people, it's you got you, you look at your drum set, though, and you go, Oh, I remember that it takes years to build up to a real pro kit, and then you get your nice bass drum pedal and all that stuff. And it, it takes time. And I think that's, that makes perfect sense to not, you know, you can't have everything. Everyone starts out with some cheap symbols and you, you work your way up from there. I think that's pretty common. So the bottom line, do your homework. Yeah. And understanding the history, which makes your podcast so valuable. Thank you. Is a big part of that research. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, all right, all this talk about, you know, these different lines, where is the best place for people? I don't want to say just in the US, but maybe it's different for each country because people listen in different countries. Where's the best place to buy and check out the obviously the different lines are on playdixon.com where you can kind of check things out there. But where can people purchase sticks and drums? Well, to tell you the truth, that's not even is a nice, that's not an easy answer because being the distributor and being a distributor of many products is that any music store or music retail option has the ability to buy from us. They're probably buying something from us. So chances are if you work in, walk into your local music store, they might have our guitars, but they don't have our drums. Okay. So the best thing that anyone can do, my best answer to that is, is reach out to your favorite source and ask. And they will be able to find them for you. But right now it's just a matter of, again, doing your research online and on Main Street and we do list dealers on the website. So that's a good resource too. But with Dixon being a relatively new brand, we're still developing and growing our access to it. So your listeners can actually help Dixon grow by asking for it. Sure. Yeah. No, that makes perfect sense. And looking like if you Google it, you'll see Guitar Center and you'll see Musician's friend. If you just want to like get a ballpark price for things, you can see them there. And that's just a good way to kind of go. How much is a bass drum pedal? How much is this? So that's a good place to start. And what a lot of people will do is reach out to us through the website, which actually goes to my friends in Taiwan. And then they send the emails to me and I usually answer personally and I can tell you where to go. Oh, nice. Okay, that's great. And it's not far away, usually not far away. No. And talking to you guys and working and we'll give a shout out to Sam Chen who helped kind of connect us because, yeah, you kind of shoot an email out and then, you know, they connected me with you and you guys have been awesome to just to work with and talk to. So it's been a very, if the customer service is great, I'll say that much. I work very closely with Sam and he's a dear friend and a great colleague. So, yeah, you're in good hands no matter, you know, where you turn, you know, it's great because I love this opportunity to talk about this because even though I think we're reaching the end, we could probably talk all day about different sides of this. But to understand, you know, to kind of put it in a nutshell is that Dixon has had, has a rich history in the drum market worldwide. Its existence as a, you know, fully available top brand contender is really less than 10 years old here in the US. So it's, it's fun to kind of watch the development and even be a part of it because you can be a part of it. And that is by just simply, you know, becoming a Dixon player. And that doesn't mean an endorser. It means, you know, buying a snare drum, buying a pedal, a cymbal stand, a drum kit. And I think what we've talked about will quickly validate itself. And then you started, you know, join the social, you know, our social channels. You know, here's something that's kind of a thing that most people don't know. I have my own Instagram and Facebook handles. It's called, it's at the percussion life. And I call it my social media business card. And what I do is, and I don't do it enough and plan to, to increase is that I'll post little kind of insider stuff about the brands that I manage and Dixon primarily being that brand. So that's kind of a way to not only be, you know, in the know, but also directly in contact with the brand manager. So all kinds of ways to communicate. Yeah. No, I found you there. That's awesome. So that's the percussion life. And I mean, really, that's how you get connected with, I've done it through the podcast. I've kind of had to define the right person to talk to and all that good stuff. But if anyone is just like, you know, an aspiring drummer, that is truly how you do it is you connect with people such as Jim. And like, they're normal people who love drums. Like, it's just that's how you get in. It's all about relationships. I think that's every business, everything in life is just relationships and getting to know people. But especially in music, whether you play or you manufacture, yes. Absolutely. Awesome, Jim. Well, this has been super cool. And you're a very nice guy. And I'm glad you've spent the time with me here today. And Jim is kind enough to stick around for a Patreon bonus episode today where we're going to talk about, like he said before, we talked a little bit about endorsements. Jim and I are going to talk about that a little bit more because, like he mentioned, he's got 25 years in the industry. And I think it struck a chord to me to a second ago when you said, just buy the drums and play them and enjoy them, not talking about endorsements. I think it kind of gets wrapped up and people overthink it now. So we'll pick your brain a little bit on that. If people want to hear those, go to drumhistorypodcast.com. There's a Patreon link, click it, two bucks a month, you get these bonus episodes. So we will do that here after we record this and you guys can listen on Patreon. So on that note, Jim, thank you for being here, my friend. This has been awesome. I've really had a good time talking to you today. It's always fun to talk drums. Awesome. Thanks, Jim. Right, Bart? Take care.