 Hi, welcome to this another episode of a series of the Central Vista and as our viewers remember, we had done a long series on the Central Vista when this whole idea was conceived. It was the initial phase of planning and now when it is being executed, we are finding now voices of different hues are actually joining and actually condemning the government they're condemning for various reasons. One happens to be that during the pandemic when the government should have focused on reaching out to the poorest of the poor is spending more than 20,000 crores on the on the on the redevelopment of the Central Vista that comprises the new parliament, a palace she'll mention for the prime minister underground dungeons, bunkers, and whatnot and of course the vice president house that is to come up and of course the stretch of the Rajput that Rajput that is going to have a complete redevelopment. So yeah different voices are there from the ecological aspect from social, political and economic aspect and today we have with us, Romy Khosla to discuss on on on the Central Vista. So, Romy, thank you for joining with us and it's been really a pleasure to discuss the whole issue of the Central Vista. Would you like to throw some light you know after the new paradigm dimension that has come up. Despite the fact that the Supreme Court laid its stamp it said hey I mean you have to go ahead with the redevelopment but you know the kind of work that is happening during the pandemic, and it's been termed as a national emergency. I mean national emergency in the sense that it's a very essential work and putting lives of more than, I mean hundreds of workmen who are at risk coming being ferried from the labor camps to the working site. But more than that I think, not just to focus on the pandemic. I mean how do you see this entire project I mean, do you think this is kind of, you know, what we've seen eras of different emperors the Roman emperor, and the Roman Empire. Similarly we had, we have seen the German emperor and the German Empire the workshop that was being prepared that was being designed. So do you find some kind of similarity happening then and now. How do you actually see this entire Central Vista redevelopment project going on. I think there are some very special specific issues with regard to the Central Vista in relation to Delhi and India first of all, we have to understand that this Central Vista was created by British colonists, designed by Edwin Latians, and basically was stretching from India gate right up to Rajasthi Bhavan as a processional route. In other words, even so often the king of England or the viceroy of England would come down in processional form, down this Rajpath, and which was called Kingsway in the old days and So the population was therefore given place on the sides of this in the lawns and also there is a, if you know the Central Vista very well as you go up towards the hill that I see in a hill. There are a series of steps which are in in the garden there, which lie ignored, but where the clapping public was to be placed. Now it's quite possible that when you have, even though we are in 2021, when you are being ruled by a system of governance, which is not very well informed about the modern world. It is quite possible that the similar delusions about having a grand entry down the ceremonious pathway is haunting your dreams that one day. What does that mean I mean in simpler terms. One day the people who head government may be able to drive down this avenue in their grandeur and go to the top. So it's also a psychological problem. I mean this was the first time we have it hearing that. First of all, there is an issue about making a ceremonial pathway. Now, when you make a ceremonial pathway, you don't want the lawns because you know, we are a democratic country, you might get people throwing stones at you. So, first of all, make it into a restricted zone. So, first and foremost, there is this desire to have a ceremonial way, because quite frankly, there is no need for it. Because once a year the Republic Day parade goes down at this crowd round the lawns we sit and we clap and we see the democratic achievements of India. So that it is fine. You don't have to redo this thing in order to have some kind of a ceremonial parade unless you have something else in mind. Okay, there is another warning issue in the sense that when you have a government government being led by people who are not very scientifically inclined. Even in our ancient wisdom, even at the cost of confronting new kinds of problems. So, here what has happened is that the vastus have indicated have been indicating for some time and vastus are very influential people, particularly in the south but now this has happened in the north. So, you have maintained that you can never get peace and tranquility or strong governance in India because you have a round parlor. That's funny indeed. So they quote the fact that you can't have opposition, the British parliament has very much two sides to the chamber in which the opposition sits on one side. There are locations of opposition where people sit in a circle. So, originally the British had made this for the council, and they were addressed by the by the viceroy and the council needs various positions sat around in a circle. In the democratic system, there is a strong opinion of the vastu that you must make a square and place it within a triangular form so that it is close to Sri Andhra. Okay. Now, in addition, now this is entirely my own conjecture. Alright, I am not going to quote anybody except my own self, it is to say that certain dates have been set down for this. Oh, that's interesting. They are very critical for the vastu that beyond that date, if you are not able to complete these projects, the country will be ungovernable. So, that's why I mean just to dam the pandemic, dam the lives of the people, you just go ahead for the dates and that's very interesting, please. So, this is the only reason because what happens in there, we are as architects continuously in touch with vastu. Many a client of ours comes and tells us that do you mind if a vastu sits with you, or that's the design and we are saying fine, I mean absolutely no problem. And to give you an example, somebody will say master bedroom south. Kitchen should be the kitchen should be the water should be in the north entrance should be from the east. So, these are these are vastu rules with which we are very familiar. We are also very familiar with the fact that I have been told personally by vastus of people whose houses are built, hey, are you so into date to cut them. Okay. So, because I am familiar with the way in which vastu work, I realize that something on a grand scale may be happening which is replicating my own experiences. Yeah. Quite evident, definitely. I can't find the reason for this. Why do you bring forward dates and obviously the idea that you have to have a new house for the heads of government etc is also connected with this. You see, you can, a vastu can come to me and tell me, you know, this building is made on the wrong inclination. Its entrance is wrong. Its whole room layout is wrong. You will have lot of illness here. If you do this, you will go bankrupt. It is very common for us. Now, you can listen to it. And the house that is built, you get scared. You say, hey, change it. You go bankrupt. Yeah, I agree. We have to argue about this thing at this level. Now, come to the issue of money. Why is 20,000 crores? 20,000 crores, nothing. If you know it, its stake is the whole of the governance of India. Yeah, yeah. I agree. You are going to spend this money trying to wipe out history. Okay. This is things that are very easy to do. And you can say, some statues are being removed. Our historical, as if a statue lying under a canopy, which belongs to British emperor is going to affect my life today. It is the lack of imagination. It is the desire to change history. It is one. It's part of that historical understanding or what you said. I mean, which draws from the unscientific, complete unscientific thought. Yeah. Not only that, it comes from a very, very inadequate understanding of history where you imagine that history can be wiped out. So many hundred years of rule can disappear if you knock out a building. Right. So what it means is that you would love to have people with no memory. And when I go down Rajput and I see Rajasthapati Bhavan and I see Latvians work. I also recall that we were under a colonial rule and they gave some magnificent buildings, which we have. I mean, I don't have any. I have been you have seen Rajasthapati Bhavan. Do we need to knock it down and make some Indian looking. What is this nonsense going on? It is because you want to change history. History can't be changed. You want to change history. There are two ways of doing it. One is you rewrite the textbooks. All right. And secondly, you wipe out the in the heritage of physical heritage of the history. So these both things are being attempted. And in a sense, of course, I certainly agree with one comment that Tolstoy made. That is history. Answers questions nobody has asked. True. What is happening now is we are being given a new history, which nobody wants. But I think this is one more. I mean, there's one more element that I would like to add and you to correct me and comment on that. You know, one of the series that I've been doing on the central Vista, one of the historians pointed out that when this dialogue was taking place between Baker and Latvians. So Baker was instrumental into telling Latvians hey, if we have to govern and that was the central Vista is also an answer to the rising national independence movement. And he said, the British architecture, primarily Tudor and Gothic was left in Calcutta in my town where I come from Simla. So this daily was a mixture of, you know, Mughal and our old, I mean, dome shape. So if you have to answer the rising freedom movement, then it has to be in jail with what Akbar brought in the Sulaikul, and he mentions that. And then she pointed out that this is not their heritage, actually, this is our heritage, heritage of the modern India. And for a long period actually we've probably the discourse, the present discourse that we have in the country or the government that is running this this country for currently doesn't believe even an out of bit in this modern country, especially the struggle against the British, don't you think I mean that is also one of the reasons why they want to just knock down the older buildings and probably construct a new, I mean, do you find some validation? We have to look historically at what was happening in the 1930s. And then the vice-roy announced that there would be a capital in India because the British were under the impression that forever. Let us make a capital for ourselves. At that time in India, there were a number of British architects, building buildings in Agra and Lucknow, etc. And they petitioned the vice-roy that the Indian style is Indian Sarsenian, it is a combination of western and Indian motifs. You find the buildings in Agra and Lucknow. And he listened to them. And when he discussed it at Westminster in England, the Westminster cabinet and the Prime Minister thought, let us send somebody new. Okay. So they found Edwin Latians. Edwin Latians was part of their club. He was not good at making, not known for making cities or anything like that. Okay. He was actually used to design country houses for the aristocrats. He has done a number of beautiful expansive states. And his wife also was very well known at that time as a theosophist. So he was appointed as the architect above all and others who were here already settled and doing practice for the British. You see the British government here was there building all the time. So they had their own architects, British architects settled here. So when Latians was appointed for this very major task, he got a bit nervous. And he wanted to look around to see who was who could work with him support him on such a big scale. And he identified Herbert Baker was making capital complex in South Africa. And that's why when they both came and started working on it, it is true that they fell out and the, the most memorable example of their falling out was the final slope that leads to the rastapati power. As you know that from Vijay Chowk, you drive up to rastapati power. And what Latians, Latians used to go back by boat and be in England for seven or eight months and then used to come visiting Baker was situated here. So what Baker did was the north and south block buildings, he brought them right up. And the rastapati bovan or the vice rise lodges at the back, and he made the slope at an angle. So that when you went up the slope, you couldn't see the rastapati, the vice rise house. You couldn't see it at all. You saw all Baker's architecture as you approach. Okay, so that's interesting. So Latians wrote a very angry letter to the vice rise. He said, I went to England to do my architecture. See what he did for me. He misbehaved so much. So that was installed permanently. So if anything drives up there, they will see what the fight was. But otherwise not, they of course stopped talking to each other after that. So now they have appointed only single architects. Yeah, so that's what I was pointing out. I mean, the last question that I may ask is many of the fraternity, they said, the central vista is fine, but you know, there should have been some transparency, transparency into design. Why is there no transparency? Or is it completely transparent within the government and within the people who should know what it should be like? Take this work. Transparency has not been a quality of our governance for some time. An issue. They are not going to get transparent about it because transparency means that there's democracy. You can't have autocracy and secrecy, democracy and transparency. So you cannot suddenly switch systems. We are in an autocratic system without transparency on any issue. Why only the central vista? On vaccines, is there transparency? Is there transparency on any issue? No. Was there transparency on economic issues such as when the GTS was put or when the notes were put? So there's never been transparency. Why would I expect it? I do not expect any transparency in the present form of governance because it's not democratic government. And when I say transparency, I mean it in the extreme sense, in the sense that this is not even shared at the cabinet level. How let alone public. So I don't expect it and I don't think that we should. You see, for me, when we want to oppose the project, we must understand its full dimensions. We must work to autocracy, we must connect it to us to ancient knowledge. It is when we combine these things together and think of it on a broad front, will we understand what is happening? It's a narrow view and say you have not put 20,000 crores somewhere else. Tomorrow the government turns around and says we have a lot of money. Just dipped into the reserve bank and taken hundreds of crores of rupees. So I won't fight it on that issue. So lastly, how do you look at it? I mean, finally, if everything is interconnected, I think it is also interconnected to the 2024 elections that we are going to have. I mean, what is going to happen? I mean, if I may ask you. Just not forget our vast difference. Who knows what the prediction is for 2020. Who knows what is the requirement that is required to be finished before the election can take. So it is all integrated. Tell me, you have a very extensive political understanding of the scene in India. I mean, it's not an electoral issue. You can't go to election and say I completed a Central Vista project. It has to be much deeper connected to some other thing. It's not an electoral thing. The completion for the election is not. If I was completing 10,000 hospitals, I could say that this is a little. Central Vista was the election. It's some ancient knowledge which is coming into this case. So probably this is the new banning tree. I'm absolutely. But this is my own personal. Yeah, not a fine. No, definitely, especially bringing in that whole psychological. I'm so important to the psyche of the present discourse. So thank you for joining with us from me and it was really wonderful talking to you. And I wish that I mean, as has been pointed out, it's an interconnected issue. Definitely. It's not just the Central Vista that we're talking about. Thank you so much. We have to learn to start thinking in a much more broader fashion about our problems. Realizing that there's no single cause for them. There is poverty, health. These are quite very big rethink on many, many fronts. Thank you so much. Thank you.