 Good evening, everyone. My name is Alyssa Stone. I am the senior director of programs and community engagement here at the Kennedy Institute, and it's my pleasure to welcome you all to our fine establishment for this very special evening with one of our fabulous trustees, Arnold Grisham, in conversation with our chief executive officer, Kathy Bella. I'm very excited for this wonderful conversation. Before we get going, and I pass it over to Kathy, who will introduce our special guest. I wanted to just give a brief introduction about Mechanics Institute. Who is here for the very first time? I know there's lots of new faces in the room. Welcome. And who are some of our members in the room? Thank you, members. Love to see it. Mechanics Institute was founded in 1854. We are a cultural center on a historical landmark, a gorgeous multi-story accessible general interest library, world around chess clubs, and events center. We do upwards of 10 to 15 events per week during Mechanics Institute. There's always something going on that will keep your interest. We have both groups, writer's groups, chess classes and tournaments, author talks like this evening, film series, concerts, and much, much more. I hope you'll check us out by visiting mylibrary.org to learn more about how you can engage with our community and consider joining us as a member here at Mechanics Institute. I'd love to highlight a couple of our upcoming events that I hope you'll come and consider checking out. Tomorrow evening we start our March Cinema Lit film series. We have women screenwriters and directors on women's lives. Tomorrow we start with a piano, a very exciting film. And then next Friday, March 8th, we have an evening tour. So if you're less familiar with our space, please join us for one of our evening tours, both on evenings on some Fridays and every Wednesday at noon. And we'll of course follow this Cinema Lit on March 8th with the film Julie and Julia. Also celebrating Women's History Month next Thursday, March 7th, we have our Power and Progress of Women's Voices panel in collaboration with the Women's National Book Association. We have a fantastic set of five authors who are joining us. So we have lots going on here at Mechanics Institute. Please visit mylibrary.org to learn more. With that, I'm very pleased to introduce our CEO, Catherine Bella, who will be in conversation with Arnold this evening. Please give them a warm welcome. Thank you so much, Alyssa. It is my pleasure to be here tonight to interview Arnold for this very special book. And I want to tell you a little bit about both him and this terrific piece that he's put together called Making a Way Out of No Way. Making a Way Out of No Way is Arnold's first book, a memoir, though he is currently outlining ideas for his next writing project. He shared with us, we had a Zoom call together earlier this week, so I know he's busy at work doing that as well. He also recently became president of the CEO of Gateway Bank in Oakland, a community-based bank. And he is my colleague and I, who is in the audience, colleague of our very own. We're very pleased to have Arnold as a member of our Board of Trustees, as Alyssa alluded to, here at Mechanics Institute. And he also serves on the program and chess committee, chairing the latter of the committee. So we're very lucky to have him in all of those roles on a regular basis to advance the mission of our terrific organization. My story is not a single story, but a series of connected narratives woven together into one life, you know, Arnold shares in the book. And isn't that the like this? A series of connected narratives. And I know you'll enjoy reading not only about the trajectory of Arnold's life, but the reflections he's made along the way, and his philosophy about what living life in full is truly needed. There's factual information, and there's a lot of philosophical information, and herein I know he's going to share that during our conversations tonight. Making a way of no way is a unique and inspiring success story that is both authentic and philosophical. It details the life and experiences of a child born to a working class black family that she traveled in the 1940s, and all that entailed. His family and the neighborhood within which he grew up helped a young Arnold to become, against all odds, a graduate of Paul University and an MBA in the field of finance. Arnold's career in banking is a testament to his courage and commitment to breaking through racial barriers and redefining possibilities for those who would follow. He's been an inspiring example as one of the first black executive vice presidents at Wells Fargo Bank, and one of the very few black senior executives in the country running a major financial institution's corporate and institutional banking business. Arnold also was one of the country's first banking executives to create the run in multicultural community ethics. The book tells about the personal as well. He's upbringing, the influence of his mother and his grandmother, the courtship and marriage, and building a life with his former wife, Jane. They were married for 50 years, and she unfortunately passed from Kansas a number of years ago. And the personal story is also one of renewal. Meeting and marrying his current partner in life, Dr. Paulina Roosevelt, and the sharing of the adventures that they enjoy together on their life path. We'll also learn about Arnold's hobbies, specifically his appreciation for a collection and donation of African American American literature, much of which is now housed at the DePaul University John T. Richardson Library. So thank you for being with us tonight, Arnold, and let's get to the conversation. And we look forward to opening up that conversation to Q&A from the audience later in the program. Arnold wanted to start tonight with a reading, so we'd like to give you an opportunity, and you may have a couple that you're going to do throughout the conversation, and he's going to start with one that's particularly meaningful to him. First off, I'd just like to thank Paulina McBride for joining me on this journey. I came here 35 years ago to be my wife. I think I must have colored a wee moment, but lucky for me. And so thank you, thank you for continuing to be on the journey, and we'll have parallel journeys together going through. And so what I wanted to do, and that's, I'm naturally discouraged with the envelope. I had an editor, and what he wrote about me, he said, you have to understand what it's all about. What does it mean? It's all about the hundred things that you did. And so he told me to write an envelope, and he said to me, my life is going to study and make it a way out of no way. I made it a way out of no way, but my father lost his job, and I had to figure out how to complete my education. I made a way out of no way by getting into the Paul University, B.S. and N.B.A. that gave me the confidence and credentials to become one of the first generation of African American business executives to enter an unwelcoming and unfriendly world. I made a way out of no way when I was stopped at every turn by the institutional racism in 1970 Chicago as I tried to navigate a banking career and moved to California for the first time. I made a way out of no way as my family adjusted to the increased cost of living in California as we worked to create a better life for ourselves. I made a way out of no way as I navigated through my imposter syndrome to life ago as well as by the way I had more confidence in my abilities than I did. I made a way out of no way by starting a bank and saving another bank from failing and thereby creating opportunities for others and myself. I made a way out of no way as my family suffered through losing the glue that held us together in the loss of Jane. I made a way out of no way as I redoubled my efforts in being of service to others as I dealt with new survivor guilt and out of living Jane. And finally, I made a way out of no way in marrying Paulina who's going to be new purpose and who has enriched my life through academic and personal journey to help others. Because what's past is prolonged. I'm confident that if necessary I can continue to make a way out of no way because my journey continues. And it makes me proud to see how that journey, that way, has impressed on my 19-year-old, 20-year-old now, granddaughter who seemingly, as she came out of the world and was wise beyond her years, has been driven in focus, has been a driven and focused person. She's now a role in UCLA and recently she's said to me, before reading my novel, can I tell you a secret grandpa? At first I just had a will, but I didn't see a way. Then I willed myself into a way and now there is a way. For there's a will, there's a way. Should be a way out of it. Thank you, Arielle. Let's start a little bit with those early days in Chicago. Here's one play as we have some things that's common. I also grew up in a working-class family. I was the first in my extended family to ever go to college and I went on to grad school as well. It's always great when you read it. I'm already teaching in the way. I see that you're sharing a path with someone else. Between college and grad school I moved to Chicago with a good friend who was going to grad school at the University of Chicago. We lived in Hyde Park on the south side. I worked for Chicago Urban Lake on the west side of the project. I kept it related to your story as I was reading about your family of origin and the path that you moved down and what it was like as you did that. So can you share a little bit about your mother's influence because she was certainly very, very critical and you're operating and brought opportunities to you and was such a great support? And some of the challenges you had. You had some health challenges early on in life and there were other challenges in your neighborhood and so on as well as support. Can you talk about that a little bit? Sure. My mother, her job, she put landings in the coast and she made $8 a week. And my father was a shipping clerk. He did $120 a week. And we lived in a two-story walk-up. But you know, we felt like we were doing okay. Yeah. Everybody was a state senator. In fact, John Telling Lynch, sitting right there, grew up in Chicago. I said he grew up in Chicago but literally blocks from where I grew up and had a senator experience. I think his dad was a public servant. He was, was he a policeman? He was a police officer. Right, right. But my mother, my mother took me to, to take me to the public library. You know, back then, the public library had three movies. And you know, Senate polling chairs and a real projector. And in my mind's eye, I could still see scenes from, you know, from some of those movies. Well, for eight bucks a week, she took me on vacations. She would take me to different places. But she was, she was just, she was big on reading. She would, she'd put me on her lap and she'd read me a story. And then I'd say, you know, I'd say, when I read it again, and there were times when I could, I did not read it, I was still young. But I could, I had heard her read the story so many times that I could, I could actually read it myself. Absolutely, I am. But she was, she was really big on reading. In fact, she didn't care about the kind of books as far as she could, as long as her reading sounds good. You know, it was okay for her. So that was, you know, that was, it was very, very fortunate. And I was also fortunate to go to a high school that was only two or three years old. And everybody was shiny and everybody had high pictures and students, everybody had high expectations. And so yeah, so that was my story. And Tony and I, I think we moved out to California. We actually made no, no, no, each other. And she kind of moved, moved out to California and similar times and had relatives and lived, lived with blocks away from each other. Great. And. Yes, yes, it is. And so that love of reading and also I'm curious about when you started to learn to play chess. When, when did those things happen? You know, I think I was probably 11, 12 years old. It was right when Bobby Fisher was in his day and we couldn't wait for the latest chess game to be played. Yeah. And then you could read about the game. I mean, we each wrote that would be detailed in the Chicago Tribunal. So, and so we used to set out a stoop in this thing. Set out a stoop and a stoop is by the, by the, by the side. It's kind of a concrete next to stairs. You could set up, you could set up a stoop and you could have a large, so-called prop that used to come in, in a back-to-tape shift and you could play chess all day long. Great. That's great. So, here you are in Chicago. You're growing up with your mom and you're in the neighborhood and you're reading and you're learning chess. So, mom, you're moving toward college. You end up at DePaul University. Tell us a little bit about that and what was that like just at that time with your family and what your opportunities were beforehand? How easy was that? What were some most important memories of that time in your life? Well, I ended up going to DePaul because I was a, I really love math and I'm a very good at math and I was trying to go to schools and programs and I had a program with seniors that you could go to during your college and take college courses and then colleges like DePaul would have seminars or math students so I just happened to go to one of their seminars at High School Students and I really, I felt it had fit me so I ended up going to DePaul and DePaul was one of two institutions that really changed my life and the priests at DePaul really looked out after us and I really didn't realize how much we were being taken care of until, you know, in the 1950s when I was asked to get trusted at DePaul and that's when I learned that the mission at DePaul was to educate kids for my friends in the Chicago area and for me, I guess I was a solid C student I was a C plus student I was a solid C student and my friends, my friends were starting to apply to grad school they were getting accepted and this was in grad school and I had the nerve to go and register as a business and say that I like to be admitted to the MBA program and they didn't even like they let me in the MBA program and getting an MBA for DePaul just absolutely set the stage and changed my life and then having an opportunity to go back and be a trustee was also a really, really big deal and how has that institution changed since you were there and what were the many ways you you had the ability to look at through different vantage points what do you think is different about it now it was a much smaller institution I was there now it's the largest Catholic university in the country I think it has something like 27,000 students it has back then when I was a trustee it had revenues I think of 500 or 600 million but DePaul never had a large amount he could use the cash flow to give scholarships to students and I'll never forget it was one year, one junior year my father became ill the tuition was $450 a semester and DePaul had changed to a court system and then $450 a quarter and we took out our first national epithecalum and nobody gave them a national epithecalum except for these two guys right here and the national epithecalum was that the interest rate was 3% and you had to start paying it back until 7 years after you graduated and then you made quarterly $45 a day and it was so entertaining that we couldn't wait for the bill to come yeah that's great well that gives opportunities for people that never would have been able to go otherwise I'm not supposed to go now that's great okay so you're there you are, you graduated with your MBA and then walked the group through a little bit of your career trajectory in the banking industry how you decided on banking it was very interesting I thought to read about your kind of old startup and then how did you move through your career and what that was like well even though I had an MBA I still didn't know what I wanted to do and I had a friend who was invited in commercial aid where you're dealing with companies and he said you should come and do this job because from that purge you see all these different industries and then you can choose one you know to the price of life and so I'm still trying to figure it out yeah if you're not still trying to figure it out something's wrong right we want to keep growing and changing and learning our whole life that's great as a part of all of that it seemed to me that education your love of it and the opportunities that it gave you also turned into your philosophy about giving back for example you turned to Joe Marshall's organization Alive and Free and another place where we connect because they were a long time client of mine I was their consultant and they had done such tremendous work I think they were in these 37 years and they have graduated so many young people from college and given them a chance and I wouldn't be able to figure out how to live that's a big part of how you turned that life experience around and then gave back in a similar manner chatting a little bit about your thoughts on education what it provided for you and how you came to make that turn I always believe that you need to pay it forward unless you need to figure out how you're going to use some resources to help others and I also believe that you have to have purpose one of the things when you get to be my age you see a lot of bad things that happen to people some of those bad things I've seen happen to people it's been when they retired I think of my father's my father's generation work was so hard and healthcare wasn't as good when they turned 65 we needed to retire for us people have to be 90 or 100 and so what are you going to do with your life and I've seen so many people that you know they go to Hawaii they send a big picture of what I have in six months later they can put their phones and they can put their locks in and I think sometimes when you stop your body says okay we're done so I think it's so important that we keep active that we have purpose that we have purpose and it was one of the things that one of the most important questions in my life is what are we doing for others thank you I know you wanted to do a second greeting and you alluded to it when you first started here about imposter syndrome and you told us a little story on the zoom call earlier this week yes well for me I think it's a step in my life I went to two journeys one was going to the outward journey to the pole and whatever and then the other journey was the inward journey and one of those inward journeys is dealing with I guess I called it imposter syndrome my father was the kind of black sheep of this land and he kind of he kind of transferred that to us I spent a lot of my life saying they were okay but I really they also said that some people that had the imposter syndrome are very successful because they work like dogs because they're so worried about being bowed down in the start so one day I was to see a vice president in the fall and I was going across the bridge and my boss said to me Rich you're worried you're supposed to be in my office and I said come and he said the directors at the long square go and elected you and exactly the vice president you know get your butt in my office and so I said to myself I didn't answer that and I said I don't think I'm going to be the general vice president and I said I'm going to be bowed out now I'm going to be bowed out and fire me when the pole gets out of private schools we're going to have to sell the house and get the trailer and go back to Chicago and I pulled this is where it really was crazy I pulled into the right of the arrow line and I said I'm getting promoted so the other syndrome is the positive signal was run and I couldn't do it right now but anyway so finding the inward journey for me has been much tougher than any outward journey yeah and it was very it was very interesting and very impressive to see all of it that takes work to do that and some of it is painful and some of it is very reflective and energizing it takes courage and it takes a lot of work to do the inward journey the other thing I could say was what we call survivor guilt and the neighborhood we're talking about we do people that were smarter than us and we do people that worked harder than us but they didn't get out and so here we used to get a free supply and they could feel this responsibility and okay that if I've been allowed to do more what am I supposed to do what am I supposed to be doing to make this a better place so the survivor guilt is part of the inward journey and still do it I'm 77 years old and I feel like in fact the Walter Johnson very close to the night we've had good times and we've been in tough times and he reminds me that the biblical passage in the pre-score tip is we're past the promise and so what are we supposed to do to make this a better place family a huge thing we talked about the family and the words of your life and the bed we built with Jane and your kids and the family times that you had from the grass that are in your book about spending time with your kids and your grandchildren as well and then children grandchildren and moving on to building a wonderful new life with your new life talk about family theme and what it's been like in terms of the importance of your life it's family is everything and I've really been blessed to have a great family and to have a second bite at the apple and have a new wife and for the two of us her journey is different from my journey but we've been able to we've been able to learn from each other's journey and it's really it's sometimes our place kind of looks like an academic place because she's got books, I got books she'll ask you about some issue that she's built by us about some issue that I'm dealing with and it's really been it's really been a big deal also it's been great to have great friends there's a guy sitting in the back waiting for a day of treatment who there have been times in my life where he has thrown me a life and didn't have to and so we've been we've been back and forth in each other's lives we know a lot of each other's secrets and it's been great to to have him and then there's a young person sitting next to him that's a kind of better than a man tea of mine and he's so young I think I have ties I have ties that are over than he does well those long standing multi-decade friendships are also very key in your story and in fact Walter is Walter one of the people I highlighted in my book in terms of people that there have been times when you know we've got kids and you know you're trying to do the right thing with kids and we've got to lean on each other we lean on each other because there are different issues and it's been really great to be able to work together I remember the first time we worked together with our kids we went to a Catholic grammar school and the school we had so much money so we put together a few parents and we were buying books and that's that was the first time that we we worked together as a citizen glad we're here to support you that's just terrific I do I do I always want them close by I'm going to ask just you talk a little bit about one more piece and then we'll kind of open it up for some questions deciding to write a memoir so we were talking again on the Zoom call earlier this week about how it's becoming ever more popular to write a memoir especially for many of a certain state in their lives and it's about different things for different people some of it's about putting down on paper your life journey so it helps you reflect and take stock of your life for some it's something that can be left to family members so they've got that written history and others to really do something like you did which is to publish a book that can be shared for a number of reasons so say a little bit about what motivated you to write a memoir and what did you learn along the way well first thing I did is I find success, what is success? What does success mean in this endeavor? and I made a decision that if no one read the book other than my kids it would be a success and there's a saying that if you don't tell your story somebody else will and you may not like their version so that's what caused me to really want to do this and I think those are the two that's great, thank you I know each table here one other piece that Arnold was talking about when we spoke earlier in the week he learned quite a lot about writing a memoir he's got some tips and we're sharing some of that information and it's also available in other formats as well so thank you for doing that there's one thing I'd like to share about the essay is that I'm trying to remember the name of the author who talked about the $10,000 book that every successful athlete writes a lot and he said you need to spend at least $10,000 and whatever your craft is if you want to become good at it and for writers the $10,000 is ringing it's probably $20,000 and people that are good writers they have read everything and there's a reservoir of stuff, knowledge and empathy that they can draw from when they write the other thing that I've learned that makes a good writer is you have to love rewriting and great writers they can't wait to get to the rewriting part of it and they just want to get their thoughts down in paper so they can get to rewriting and sometimes what they'll do is when I pass it they'll come back a few hours later and they'll look at what they've written and they'll see a better way to write what they've written and so and I follow them all from pre-writing and also the other issue is you can't have a deadline it's finished when you get finished and I mean sometimes the writers they carry the weight and they never finish because they're perfect for the writer lots of potential teams do you see a good in that situation for sure let's open things up to the audience and we have some questions out here of Arnold and we'll come around with the microphone for anyone who does have a question thank you I'm a member I'm a chess member thank you for sharing your story and I appreciate it I almost don't feel like I have the privilege I didn't read the book and I guess I just have to wonder for someone with the responsibility that you hold what is it that you fear and then what do you hope about it sure and I have an answer actually I fear that when I stand in front of Saint Peter or whoever and he asked me what did you do with the life of the living whatever I say it's going to be in that way and I hope that I still get a pass other questions Arnold thank you for your kind words you like to rewrite do you rewrite your life do you do anything differently because my outward journey I have been just tremendously blessed in my outward journey and I think it's been about the inward journey that has been harder for me I'll give you an example of how my outward journey has been blessed my first wife passed and we sold we sold the bank and I was lost absolutely lost and David he saw me from a distance and invited me to come to see the consultant at First Public Bank and he gave me something to do and that's an example I hope that my worst day is not a bad day others I'll have a good question you have played with finance and you're playing with writing how do you serve one another I looked at my what and I had another profession that I love to I love to hear someone else's story and and when you can get another person to talk about your story they'll tell you and I guess with writing so much comes to me from building a life I guess it's similar in that regard and that's what I find I love hearing someone else's story and I love reconnecting with stories in the past and getting them to come forward that makes sense I was really interested in hearing you talking about the inner journey having devoted myself to that since my retirement and I was curious at what point in your life did you recognize that there was an inner journey and perhaps really put some effort into developing and that's when I started reading Howard Thurman oh and Howard Thurman he has a trilogy of essays and one of them is called the inner journey and so that was when I first started focusing on the inner journey and for those of you that may not know Howard Thurman was probably the second most famous person to graduate from Morehouse College behind the King and he is a well known emotion who has written lots of books about Howard Thurman classes and he talks about the inner journey first of all I want to say you did good I just would like you to talk about this transformation that I've seen in you when I met you you were retired and recently a few months ago you became CBO and there's been this transformation this research of energy and the bank doors don't open until 8.30 he's up at 5.30 or 6.00 fully dressed at 7.00 with nowhere to go sorry can you talk about this renewal that you feel? what's going on in your head? I think David is also a good person to talk about this and to have a big life and then for whatever reason it stops you really appreciate what you have anymore and then to be blessed to resume that life makes you really appreciate even more and for me when I have a purpose and I have complicated problems that are difficult to solve I feel energized and I actually feel a sharper I feel mentally sharper and complicated problems that are difficult to solve you want to wake up at 2 o'clock in the morning say how am I going to make a point in the morning? that's not a problem it's one of the things I'm learning in writing is that sometimes I'm trying to express something and I learn to walk away and when you walk away then your mind is still working on the problem you go to sleep your mind is still working on the problem and then the solution comes to you so I feel that I'm more in tune I'm more in tune to what the universe brings me and part of it has been Mary Alina because most of you probably don't know that besides being a nursing professor she's written five books of poetry and she's never tried to write one poem she's never before she's never been coming to her she's never owned a poetry book never read poetry and she has fully formed poems that come to her and it's because somehow she's incredibly she's become open enough that this comes to her and so I've learned I've learned in my journey to be to try to be more open because more open I am more confident and I feel like it's 77 you don't even 37 and I feel like there's so much to do there's just so much to do and I think that being married to somebody who is an intuitive helps to make you more more open to all that the universe brings thank you one thing I like your thoughts on is you talked about the 10,000 mile rural and somebody who's been vanishing all your life it sounds like you've become really good when you're doing your kids you've stayed with us you know when they retire and have non-corporary going to something totally different I know for myself as somebody who's working in two different fields that each different field I've got into is loving to develop a different part of myself and I want to know your thoughts about staying with the same thing or doing different things with one's life it's really a struggle I've got a great thinking job that's coming to me from a writing standpoint and I go back and forth between the two and I want to say one time with one and the other I want to let the other know but that's to have that situation it's an unlivable question to have two things that you're trying to separate from one another which one do I want to focus on at this moment and I just feel like I feel like I'm living I'm living my best years great way to feel I just wanted to thank you so much for talking about a new life at your age because as I approach any kind of thinking new things are happening and I'm thinking, how can this be perhaps you just told me how it could be any other questions any other questions before we close tonight and Paulina can I say where is she she is taking up acting acting classes and explaining I just feel like I'm bombarded with my family bombarded with all this new stuff and just trying to keep going focus what have you there's a young man are you 42 yet yeah yes he has a lot of talk he's talking about this and he's he's a big talent that has a lot of stuff in this way that can do a lot of things it's interesting it's interesting to live vicariously with all the good opportunities Arnold, you're well known in our fraternity Sigma Phi 5 for mentoring and bringing in a lot of younger people and you've talked a lot about ways to help others and I just wanted to make that comment that a lot of the younger people in our organization look up to Arnold in an easy way that is relationships and I know for a fact that one of the keys to your business success is relationships and a question that I have if you had to name three mentors that were truly pivotal in your life and career is that something you're willing to do right now to make a brief comment on why yeah it's hard I mean part of what I'm doing the most is that a number of people have shown up at a critical time a critical juncture many people have fought a lot many people lost their lives in our community when I came to California the community that we live in I was embraced by so many people and the two of you are two people that have embraced me so when you come when you take the 2,000 mile trip it's you basically take the trip and you burn the boat it's not easy to go back and to be accepted and I think it's a community that we live in I think being in size of more than three people that are might have had the same experience but it was something about our community at that time that was a very very accepting token I'd love to a fraternity where you meet people from different disciplines and what happens to a lot of people especially in this community you know, this technology is a lot of times people are cycled you know, they don't have an engineer you know, they don't have a computer a scientist or what have you it's hard to meet people outside of the earth outside of your cycle and we've been blessed because we've been able to meet people and are doing things that are very different from what we were doing very emotional any other questions? if you look back on this outside Chicago talking to a young person their way out more guys I would tell them that if you grow up applying a lot of resources you do need to get some sort of career you know, just going to pay the rent for a fuller than a table but I would tell them that the great today is trying to become an entrepreneur technology makes it easier to become an entrepreneur you know, you don't need you don't need server racks and what have you you know, Google and Microsoft can bring you all the technology that you need I remember when I got involved in the construction business video conferences and you paid 200 dollars on both sides for a video conference today you can have a video conference on your phone so if you have a bright idea the cost of being an entrepreneur is a lot less than it used to be and I just think that if you figure out how to be an entrepreneur you create more independence for your family some of us have been fortunate enough to make a career out of corporate America but if you can if you can somehow become your own boss that's what I would encourage always be on the lookout what is the idea that you might be able to turn it into a business and you don't need that much money to deal with these things so and in fact there's the saying that you know, we typically don't trust someone that hasn't failed in something and so you need to get that question out of the way and figure out how to be an entrepreneur and figure out how to be your own boss that's what it feels like alright, I think that's the thing there's wisdom and his book with us there will be copies in the back so we'll tell you a little bit more about it and thank you all for being with us tonight we appreciate you coming out in the wind or the rain and it's just lovely to have you here I hope you'll consider coming back for other programs during the Cannons Institute and perhaps even becoming a member already so again, thank you if you have time take the tour this place was started in 1854 I think it's the oldest private library in the country and just seeing the grass railings downstairs just around the corner here you can see the chess room which is really a dramatic place knowing that there have been chess masters and grandmasters it's an extraordinary place a hidden jewel in the city a big wonderful thank you for Arnold Grisham trustee, author, inspirer and thank you to our CEO Katherine Vella for being our moderator and interviewer this evening thank you all so much for joining us here at the Cannons Institute please, if you haven't already visit Andy who will be helping us to sell Arnold's books in the back we've also got hard coffee and paperback and we would love to invite folks, if you'd like to do a quick tour I'll help guide y'all out or guide y'all out and then back out to this room if you would like a quick tour of the Cannons Institute thank you, please join us again and we'll see you next time