 Welcome back to the breakfast on plus TV Africa. Our next conversation is going to be discussing security. Earlier we had mentioned about 300,000 from a UNICEF report about 300,000 kids had of course been killed in the last decade concerning the insurgency in the Northeast and of course in other parts of Nigeria. It also says about one million have also been displaced. But there's some conversation that every now and then has creeped up and that is the differentiation between the Boko Haram sect. Oh, basically the persons who are responsible for these numbers and for the insurgency and insecurity in Northern Nigeria. There's the Boko Haram sect, there's the Aiswap and of course there's now the bandits, there's kidnappers, there's unknown gunmen, there's many of them. We're speaking this morning with Jehoza Getso who's a security analyst to share his thoughts on helping differentiate and identifying these groups better. Good morning Mr. Getso. Good morning. Good morning sir. Thank you for having me, good morning. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for joining us. All right, Jehoza Getso, we've dealt with the insurgency for more than a decade now in Nigeria. And over time in the last few years we've seen the emergence of new groups, we've seen the emergence of new names with also varying degrees of atrocities against the Nigerian state. There's been those who have argued that some of all these people are really just offshoots of the same Boko Haram sect and are no different but have just been poorly named. Do you agree with that or would you say that there truly are different groups from the Boko Haram sect that have committed these same atrocities against the Nigerian state? Well, both of them, the Boko Haram, Iswab and Bandatri, they are all insurgents in general. But in particular, each of them have a different objective and they have no relationship. Even though at much later time there were certain relationships which are probably I will discuss as we move. There are certain emergence of informal relationships in terms of their behavior and attitude in terms of the way they operate. So now, let's take one after the other. Boko Haram is a rebel. Well, it's a terror group that emancipated as a result of the leadership of late Muhammad Yusuf, who is a religious activist or religious, yes, you can call him a religious activist, but his activism have no base in Islamic perspective because I have read so much about Islamic philosophy, Islamic political philosophy, and Islamic democratization, whatever the relationship between whatever you call it. So now, the Boko Haram happened to come up as a result of a political stude. One of the governance in the north is used as a political threat. And later, when he dumped them, after injecting a certain ideology in them, so they now pick up what is the meaning of Boko is a Western education. So they don't like anything Western education. They don't want to promote Western ideology and so on and so forth. While the Boko Haram, which later after the killing of Muhammad Yusuf, we advised the government, based on research and investigation we conducted, and we realized that there is need to have a shift in terms of rehabilitation, in terms of managing the situation, not until one Nigerian government becomes so relaxed and so adamant and so careless to have allowed the alliance between the Boko Haram and other foreign and internal political forces, both political and administrative, which are yet to be ascertained, even though we always refer to the minister of information law, Muhammad's statement, where he's saying that they know who are the finances and the leaders of the Boko Haram. That one, I leave it with him because I don't have a strategic, I don't have information from what he has. But all I know is that I know there is emergence of Boko Haram, which is aimed at shifting from Western education to Islamization, not really Islamization in real doctrine of Islam, there is not a like tourism, there is not a like activity. From the insurption of what Islam is all about, from what I have read, because I have been conducting research and studies on Islamic political system, Islamic studies, Islamic religion, Islamic psychology and Islamic philosophy and Islamic psychology and the criminal psychology, how Islam deal with criminal psychology in the last 25 to 27 years. But up to now, I didn't see any relationship between Islam as a religion and the Boko Haram ideology. That is about Boko Haram. Now Issof, Issof is a spell out alliance of Al Qaeda and other multilateral terror groups that have a different perspective and different mission of how they operate. All they are after is to take over the leadership of the world. Not only under Issof, it's a distribution of insurgents, criminal or terror, that have bilateral, regional and international network. So it has a network like in West Africa. You have a lot of Issof members in Benin. You have them in Algeria. You have them in Nigeria. You have them in Libya. You have them in Mali. And probably part of them are expected to also be in Egypt. And they're also in the US and they have made a lot of, they have a lot of relationship between what is obtainable in terms of their operations, in terms of their philosophy, in terms of managing situations and in terms of how their doctrine have a direct relationship with Al Qaeda and other terror in the Middle East, in the Western world and also in part of the far Asian countries. Because I could remember that during 2014-2015, I was in Myanmar, India, Afghanistan and some part of other Asian countries including Sri Lanka. And then later, I came back to East Africa where I visited Somalia and Itofia so as well as part of the Southern Sudan where I conducted a number of researches and investigations and also conducted a comparative study to understand what this issue of and other and their relationship are linked with the other Al Qaeda groups. So now, that is about the issue of, so there is a core relationship, a common relationship in terms of operational philosophy between the Boko Haram and that of Itofia because they are all working on the doctrine of Islamic terrorism. That is their own perspective. But to be fair to Islam as a religion, there is nothing like terrorism or activism in Islam. It's not part of the Islamic doctrine but they hide under the disguise of Islamic struggling to have emancipation of Islamic leadership in all these countries for them to have their operations succeeded or using it as a kind of, you can call it as a serene or as an anthem or so whatever you call it. So now, coming into banditry. Banditry, before I go into banditry, let me quickly make a request. Boko Haram, 99.9% of the leadership of Boko Haram and the commanders are well educated. Many of them are engineers. Many of them are medical, there are medical doctors among them. There are pharmacists. There are all sorts of professionals. There are art and social scientists. Most of them are graduates. And their leadership is also perhaps a combination of even some have a PhD qualification but they tear the qualification and throw it away. For them they have wasted their time and intellect. So they now want an Islamic government to emerge. But that is wrong to Islam. That is my understanding from the 22 to 27 years that I have conducted and comparative analysis of Islamic studies, Islamic philosophy, Islamic political concepts and so on and the Islamic civilization and the history of Islam based on what I read. To be fair to Islam, there is nothing, Islam will not accept Boko Haram and will not accept the ISWAP. So that is her card. Going into banditry. The banditry is an activity. The ISWAP and the Boko Haram is mostly dominated or their activities are dominance. In the areas of northeastern part of Nigeria and other countries alike of Cameroon, Chad, Libya and other countries as I mentioned. And they have a base in United Arab Emirates. They have a base in the Sahelian part of African home. And then they also have a direct link with Western bloc and the part of Eastern bloc in the Western Europe. So now coming into banditry in Nigeria. Banditry is an activity that has a long historical perspective, historical antecedents which was overseen by Sardona, Tapa, Balewa, Azukwe and even the colonial and colonial administrators. Because it happens as a result of the lingering relationship, the relationship between the nomads and others. Virtually many people think that Fulani are the leaders. Yes, of course. There are a lot of Fulani's in the activities of banditry, in the activities of kidnapping, in the activities of what is happening especially in the north central and southern northeastern states. But not withstanding, if you take it, 99.9% of these of them are electorates. 99.9% of the bandits in northeastern state and northeastern state are northeastern states operating in Benue, Kogi, Nassarawa, Naija, Kaduna, Katsuna and part of outside of Kano and to some extent some part of Jigawa, Zamfara, Kebi, Sokoto and alike. They are electorates, 99.9% of them they cannot write and they cannot read and they cannot even understand the difference between A and B. Even though there are very many notes based on my interaction and investigation, very many notes, not out to five decimal in a hundred, that they can be able to understand the concept of Arabic notes that is Alifun, Ba'un, Ka'un and so on. So some of them, very few and very many numbers. They understand the concept of Islam. They call themselves Muslim but they are not even praying. They are not even praying. They are not even praying. They don't accept, they believe they are Muslim but they don't have the knowledge of Islamic knowledge. So, and their operations is just to kill. There is no key objective, no defined objective, no defined goal, no defined strategy. They get arms through the armed importers and armed dealers. So in the correlation in the Boko Haram, the ISWAP and the Banditry, if you want to say that they have a correlation, yes, of course they have a correlation because all of them have a bilateral and multilateral connections. That is one. All of them are determined to kill. All of them are determined to destroy. All of them are determined to detonate bombs and other things. Even though bandits are not detonating bombs but as time goes on, they have obtained AA that is anti-aircraft and other sophisticated arms, RPG, PMG and other dangerous arms and ammunition. They get it through the bi-relationship between the three of them. Of course, there was a time I had an intelligence information of a meeting that happened between the ISWAP, Boko Haram and the Bandits which happened within the vicinity of Kaduna State, Niger State, as well as the Katsuna State. That means it happens in the belts that link up the states around the Bin Nungwari area, Bin Nungwari local government area in Kaduna State, some part of Katsuna State and some part of Kagara in Niger State and some part of Sakaba in Sakaba and the part of Yawuri in Niger and the KGB State. So these are the lingering situation. And at that time, I was able to mobilize those information and share it with the national spiritual operatives for onward actions even though the information, the privilege information I provided was neglected until when the meeting was conducted. Even though I was not at the meeting but I had some reliable information that the meeting for coordination and collaboration happens but I did not have any information on the outcome of the meeting. But all I know is there is now a kind of correlation between the Boko Haram, the issue of the Ansaru and Bandatum. Okay, Mr. Getso, Mr. Getso, Mr. Getso, just a minute. You have tried to explain to us that there's a difference between Boko Haram, Eswap and Bandits. But many other security analysts would beg to differ. They believe that Bandits are just another word, another synonym for Boko Haram terrorism because they carry out acts of terrorism. Like you mentioned, they kill people, they destroy lives, they kidnap people. Those are acts that are synonymous to terrorism. So other security analysts say Banditry is just a word that it seemed to be lesser but really is terrorism and that it cannot be separated from Boko Haram. And the Boko Haram terrorist sect have actually pledged allegiance to Eswap. So many people would say they are one and the same. I don't understand how you might want to separate them then. I have already separated them by their doctrine. As said, Boko Haram and Eswap are Islamic activists or terrorists that believe in Islamization. But I have been fair to Islam that there is nothing like activism or terrorism accepted by the Islamic doctrine. These are research I conducted 25 to 27 years on Islamic theology, Islamic democracy and Islam and Islamic philosophy and how Islam deal with criminal psychology and criminal activities. Bandits, I said, and I said Eswap and Boko Haram, they are intertwined and they are educated. They are vast in Islamic education and many of them are engineers, architects, civil engineers, biotechnologists, social scientists, medical scientists. There are all sorts of professional experts that acquired, went through the university and obtained highest maximum qualification you may think of. Many of them have first-class. Many of them have second-class offer. Many of them have second-class lower. But none of the Bandits, I know all their leaders. I have interacted with almost all the leaders of the Bandits in northern Nigeria. Direct interaction. And I want to, I rip up some into anybody. I'm a field-based researcher. Right now that I'm talking to you, I'm at the downstream of the state of Zamfara, Katena Sokoto and KB. And I am conducting a streamline analysis of situation analysis of the impact of the operations or the new rules that introduced by these states of our Niger and others. Niger, Zamfara, Kaduna and others. So I'm a field-based practical person. I want to confirm and affirm to you that none of the Bandits' leaders in Katena, in Sokoto, in KB, in Zamfara, in Zygawa, in Kano, in Niger, in Kaduna, can write A. And none of them can write B. And none of them can differentiate between A and B for you. All right, let's get to it. Let's get it very clear. But Iswab and Boko Haram and Ansaru, they are world-versed in Western and Islamic education. And most of them are professionals. I know many of them that are architects. Many of them are engineers. Many of them I know, among the medical doctors who are operating within us. Okay, Mr. Geto. Thank you. Well, I think you've done very, very well in pointing out these things. It's also, I think one of the things that we've also struggled with is knowing who is responsible for certain attacks without them necessarily having to claim responsibility. That's also one of the things that Nigerians have struggled with over time. So can you help us with that regard? How is it easier to identify who might be responsible for certain attacks? The attack on the NDA, for example, and other army formations that we've also heard about. Can we identify a group by its mode of operation? Is that possible? And when army formations are attacked, can we simply point out and say, okay, this is very likely Boko Haram or ISWAP or just bandits? Is that easy to do by just pointing out from their mode of operation? The mode of offering the other operations be fast. Strategically, the Boko Haram and ISWAP direct their attacks on institutions. Institutions like mosque, like church, like MDS as you mentioned. So they are strategically focusing on that. Why the bandits? Their attacks, like I keep saying, 99.9% of the attacks of the bandits, they attack the people they know. And the people they attack, they know them. And they are indigenous. Some of the ISWAP and the Boko Haram, some of them to some extent, there is a combination of a nationalist that is citizens and foreigners. There are few foreigners among the bandits, but they are not conducting operations in terms of attacks. Most of the operators, most of them that operate within the bandits geographical terrain of North Central and Southern Northwestern states, they are armed invoices and armed traitors. So like I keep mentioning, among the supply chain mechanism or the command of, the channel of command in terms of supply and operations, you have armed invoices, most of them, 99.9% are foreigners. You have armed traitors, 99.9% are foreigners. You have armed distributors and armed transporters. 99.9% are indigenous of Nigeria. And 99.9% of bandits who are operating in Sokoto, they are indigenous of Sokoto. Those who are operating in Zamfara, they are indigenous of Zamfara. Those who are operating in Niger, they are citizens of Niger because they have been born there and maybe for certain reasons, they have settled there for a number of 20 or more years. Likewise, Kaduna and all other states that you may think about. So their mode of operandi for bandits is to kidnap or ransom to kill the villages who have a kind of probably marital relationship. Sometimes so many other reasons, that time may not permit me to explicitly discuss it, but they are illiterate and their target is not institutions. It is in a very few situations, much later after 2018, 2019 and 2020, after 2021, much later, much, much later, the bandits started attacking institutions like the military camp in areas where they feel threatened so that they can weaken the military to enable them for them to have opportunity to be able to reach their target which is the next community. So, but strategically, Ishwab, Boko Haram and Ansaru, they are targeting the institutions, the institutions of governments, the private institutions like universities, like what happened in Greenfield University, the institutions in North Eastern state, even though at a later time, the bandits also employ the strategy of attacking the institutions, but in a different way. Boko Haram, Ishwab and Ansaru, if they go to institutions, they try to destroy it. They try to kill and detonate bomb. Bandits, if they go to institutions, they try to kidnap students for ransom. So they're entirely in different groups and they have no iota of relationship besides the only one meeting they had in the vicinity of Niger, so Niger, Zamfara and Kevi, which I mentioned earlier. Okay, Mr. Geto, can we talk a bit about their recruitment methods if they are different? Because we've heard and seen in the news sometimes some terrorist group, we don't know who they are, go ahead and they give people money, give them food stuff, convincing them to join. We've seen others just go and kidnap and then they turn them as part of them. So is there any difference between their recruitment method also, any difference in the age, their recruitment bracket, because we've seen some recruit children, some recruit adults. So any fundamental difference between Boko Haram Iswab and the bandits? Yes, of course. There is different strategy for recruitment for both of them. Boko Haram Iswab and Ansaru, the way they do the recruitment is any community if they attack institution and the institution or if they attack community. Whatever age, even the age of six, I met someone at the age of six, among the Boko Haram in one community in Askira Oba, local government of Southern Borno, as part of one of them, which is not up to, which is between seven and six years. So I can tell you that anybody, any remainers after the kid, whatever they cut as a hostage, they move with them and they train them, they mobilize them and they intoxicate them using drugs and other things to influence them to also buy into what they are and sometimes they force them. That is one. That is Boko Haram and Iswab. But for the bandits, their way of recruitment is different because most of the recruitment is voluntary. It is, so those who lost their cutters or those who wish to join them because among the bandits, like I keep saying, it's less than 35 to 40 of Fulani that are involved in the banditry. 60 and above, or thereby, are not interested among the Fulani in Nigeria, are not interested. They don't have passion. They hate what their core people doing. They don't like it. So it's not able Fulani or able Nomad that you see that is a bandits. It's less, it's between the percentage of 35 to a maximum of 40 that are doing it. So the way they recruit, 99.9% of the recruitment procedure is a volunteerism. I am a Nomad. You kill my father, you go away, you rush to our cutters and so on and so forth. So what is the way forward for me? I have a team of other guys who are my plan. So I will sell out the rest of the remaining cow either two or three and then ask them to help me to get AK-47. So if I have AK-47, you have AK-47, all of us come along and form a team and have a leader. All right. You also get so. Whereas Boko Harama and Isob and Ansaru is well coordinated, well organized, formal structure of educated and they have all sort of communication and understanding. One thing that will interest you among these illiterates of a bandage, if you see the way they dismantle and reassemble arms, you will be surprised. But if you write A and B and C and ask them, what is this? They will just be laughing at you. They don't know what is A. They don't know what is B. They don't know what is C. But among the Boko Harama guys are interacted with especially in the extreme end of Ashira Uba, Dikwa, Mubi, Michika, Iha, Madagali and some other part of Borno during the investigation and conduct of research, I have seen many who speaks much, much better English than I do. My first degree was in Arabic literature and I speak Arabic much more than my mother's tongue. But I want to tell you sincerely and honestly that I have met many among the Isob and Boko Harama and Ansaru that speaks Arabic much, much better and understood it better than me. And they speak English much, much better than I do. And I met many of them who are graduate who's a PhD, who's a master, I even met somebody who's a sub-MACist at the age of 62, so they are different. Thank you. Mr. Agatso, I don't think anyone would have done a better job with this conversation. Oh, thank you very much for joining us this morning. Thank you. And we would love to continue speaking with you to understand these things better. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me at your convenience anytime you can reach out to me, thank you. Absolutely. So our next conversation would be about that presidential zoning in 2023, like we talked about, stay with us.