 So what is it about children that makes them innocent? I wasn't expecting that. I believe that when we were children ourselves we can relate to the ignorance that we have to the wider world and I feel like the bliss that we get from ignorance is what makes children seem innocent, arguably. Who says children are innocent? Flipping the coin on its head. They're innocent to an extent, yeah? There might be naughty for their parents, but you would agree that they're vulnerable and... Would you say that being vulnerable is the same thing as being innocent? I think it's a part of being innocent. Would you agree? I suppose in some sense you could say that, yeah. So with being vulnerable and innocent, it would mean that they would need someone to protect them, to look after them, to guard them as guardians. Children are vulnerable, they're easily attacked if someone could attack them. You know, things like that, that would be what would make a child vulnerable, yeah? Yep, I would agree. Do you agree with that? Yeah. So do you think in society we have a moral obligation to stand up for those who are more innocent, more vulnerable? I do believe so, yeah? Yeah, you would agree with that. Most people would, I mean, it's just basically general ethics for a society. I was waiting for you to catch us up. No, no, no, no, no, it's fine. So what about animals? Do you feel that animals are vulnerable and innocent too? They are, yeah. They are? Because it's quite similar. Like, naturally bigger animals are more able to protect themselves. Small children which haven't grown as much are inherently less able to protect themselves, aren't they? So they are vulnerable. Do you agree they are animals? Yeah, they're defending themselves as well as part of it. Do you feel like animals, they trust us to look after them, to nurture them? It depends on the individual animal, I think. So like a dog would probably trust its owner. But then, you know, you get smaller animals, like I'm pretty sure like a rabbit. I mean, does a rabbit really feel, well, have trust? What is trust? Well, let's just say that they would feel safe around someone who was nurturing them, feeding them, showing them love and compassion. The animal would feel that, yeah? Yeah, yeah. Generally, that's what happens. You know, let's talk about dogs for a while. If you've seen someone hurting a dog, treating a dog unfairly, being cruel to the dog, would you try to intervene or say something? Yeah. Yeah, you would? Yeah. I used to have two dogs, so definitely, yeah. Definitely. So they feel, it feels like the dogs are close to your heart. They are where your companion is. Yeah, they are. They are off their small heart. Okay. So do you think dogs are different to any other animal in the way they feel pain and want to live and feel things like happiness and desire? Different to any other animal. Well, let's just talk about pigs. I'd say there are similarities with pigs. But yeah, I mean, then it gets into kind of the science of how intelligent each one is, I think. And it's hard to compare. So pigs intelligent? I think for animals, pigs can be quite. What about compared to a dog? I mean, I'm not a psychologist. Okay. But I mean, I think they're closer than maybe people would think. So a lot of the scientists pointing to the fact that pigs are more intelligent than dogs, would you think that's a genuine? Yeah, I believe that, yeah. You believe that? Yeah. He's a scientist, I agree with what you said. Okay, so you would intervene if someone hurt a dog. Would you intervene if someone would hurt a pig? Yeah, if someone was standing there hurting a pig just for the pure joy of hurting a pig. You would? Yeah. How about yourself? I don't think pigs and dogs are. I can see where you're going with this because, but I don't think pigs and dogs are the same. I think we should bring that up because culturally it's become a lot more acceptable for pain of pigs in the sense of making them as food. But in the western world at least, we don't see dogs in the same way. We don't see dogs as food. We see pigs as food. Why is that? Because we, as humans, we've developed an emotional attachment to dogs because as I said, I had two dogs. Lots of people have dogs as pets. They're easily trained as pets. Okay. But pigs are not really the same. That's a great point. So do you think that just because we have an emotional attachment to someone, that means they deserve more moral consideration than someone we don't like. So let's just say, put it in a human context as a person there. We don't know them. Does that mean we've got the right to do what we want to them? It doesn't. It doesn't mean that at all. But it's become acceptable, which is probably wrong. Okay. So a lot of things in the past were acceptable. That were morally wrong. Would you agree with that? Definitely, yeah. Like what slavery used to be acceptable, definitely morally wrong. It was legal with two, yeah? Yeah. Okay. So just because, so where I'm actually going with this, you know where I'm going with this. We treat some animals one way and other animals that's okay to kill and eat. Okay. We draw an arbitrary line. Is that true? True. These animals are okay to care for, love for. These ones we can put in the gas chamber, bolt gun them in the head, chop them up into pieces. Okay. This is our society. So do you think there's any hypocrisy in that? Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is not the word I would use. No. Would you say, well I'll put it to this way, you would desire to live a life without suffering, without most human beings would, yeah? Yeah. So do you think it's hypocritical to deny that to an animal? I mean, so I think that if you're going to farm animals, they should ideally live a life without, well with as little suffering as you can have. Okay. So I think that's still the goal. I think that you then kill them ideally again painlessly without suffering and then eat them. I think that's different to the kind of stuff. The state of animal agriculture as it is, do you think that happens? No pain, no suffering, just a quick death? No. I'm aware that that doesn't happen, and I'm not going to be naive about that. But in an ideal world, that's what my view would be. How about a vegan world? Would that be more ideal for the animal? No death at all. I think, I guess you get, there's arguably, yeah, because then I guess they'd be set free, right? But then for a lot of species, I think if the whole world became vegan, that would be terrible for some species. For like, for cows in general, the cow population would plummet because people wouldn't be trying to keep them all alive. Do you know how many cows there are on Earth right now? Not down to the exact one. There's 56 billion land animals on Earth. Do you know why there's that many land animals, farmed animals on Earth? I guess. You think it was natural? They just bred into existence? No, I think we're breeding them into existence to eat. So do you think that is healthy and sustainable for the Earth? Where do they get their food from? Animals obviously have to fit eat plants, don't they? Sustainability, environment wise, having loads and loads of animals is... Is it unnecessary? Yes. Unsustainable? Yeah. So how about this? If we can live happily and healthy lives by eating plants, there would be no animal harm, no animal suffering, no animal death, or a great reduction, wait, a great reduction as best as we could do, because obviously by living we displace some of the wildlife without killing ourselves, that's just the reality of our existence. So it's more sustainable for the environment and arguably plants are the healthiest foods on the planet. So why would we choose something that's so unnecessary, so cruel when we've got all these other options? I don't think that the cruelty towards the animal world, again, I don't think that the fact us eating animals is, I don't think just only the ethical concerns need to be taken into account with that. What about all the other concerns I just raised? Does that strengthen the argument? Like environmental... Yeah, and health. And health. Well, I mean there's not, you can't say that meat is categorically unhealthy. What about saturated fat and cholesterol? Those things are bad. And they are in meat, yeah? I'd agree that yeah, they're in meat. But there's also benefits. There's also protein in meat. There's protein in beans too. But then some people like... Then the taste is what you've got to consider people like the taste of meat. Ah, so we're at taste. That's a great point because this is where I feel people have most of the argument here is where they say they value their taste over an animal's life. And that's, so that five minutes, that burger's in your mouth. Okay, this is the animal's whole life. Do you think that that's justified? Isn't that, I don't want to sound too cool, but isn't that evolution? Evolution? Isn't that survival of the fittest to a step... Like lions? Should we justify our behaviour on what's happening in nature or should we maybe, does that always mean what's ethical? Like a lot of bad things happen in nature. True. A lot of bad things happen when we're evolving. I mean, whole civilisations were pillaged and raped, you know, that doesn't mean that was justified or we should continue doing that. Is that true? True. So do you think if there's a better way, maybe we should opt for that? We should certainly all consider the better way more, admittedly. So by our own admission, we agree that, you know, animals are vulnerable, they're innocent. It's not justified to do what we do to them, for food. And there are... That's the jump that's been made about, right? Ah, so justify it. Yeah, just like... Justification for killing animals billions and billions and billions for no reason other than they taste good. Can you justify that? I don't think the only reason is that they taste good. Well, what would be the reason for it? It's, I mean, so, I feel like a lot of the points you're making are, like, this is an undeniable truth, this is an undeniable truth, this is an undeniable truth, add them all together, therefore nobody should eat meat, right? I think the strongest argument is you wouldn't want that treatment yourself, so to deny an animal of that or to treat another being in a way that you wouldn't want to be treated is a double standard and you know what I'm saying? Like, if someone was hurting you, I would stand up for you. I think, but I think then you have to... You do have to draw a line between humans and animals. I think there is... Okay, there might be some differences, but what have we got in common? We both... We all want to live, peace in peace. We desire to have a family, to live a life without suffering or enslavement. Is that true of both of us? Of both of us. Animals and humans. I mean then you know, you end up getting into a debate of like doesn't animal want that necessarily? There's also a point about... So you say this about animals and veganism, let's not exploit animals for what we want. So for example, the clothes we're all wearing were probably people have been exploited, not in the same way, they haven't been killed off for it, but people have been exploited in order for us to enjoy this. And we say, oh, well what's the benefit of that? We could all just spend a lot... Well, we could have things made much more ethically that end up costing a lot more. But it's like, oh no, but I don't really want to spend 50 quid on that t-shirt, I'd rather spend 20. You raise a really good point. There are more ethical ways to live than just veganism itself. But why should we cause the maximum amount of harm when we don't have to? We're not causing the maximum harm. By eating all these animal products that we don't need, we could just stick to plants. And then maybe there's other ethical issues that could be more ethical clothing options. But why should we cause all this animal suffering on top of that when it's not necessary? There's alternatives, you know what I mean? That we've got other stuff we can eat. Yeah, but animal suffering isn't... You're trying to make animal suffering seem the same as human suffering, which I think is... What about a dog? What about your dogs, bro? I still wouldn't say a dog seems human. But you would say that they deserve a life without suffering, without slavery, yeah? But still, if I had to choose between a dog and a human, I would always choose the human. But we don't have to. All we have to do is choose between plants and animals. That's why I believe we should probably investigate how to make this more practical on a wide scale for everyone. And that's why I'm saying we should investigate, but we can't just commit to it yet unless people actually are aware of themselves. Because in this kind of issue, people need to actively make the decision. So, what about you with this conversation here? Is that making you more aware? It's making me definitely have a thinker. I'm going to have a Google and I go home. Think about it from your dog's perspective. If someone was rounding them up, breeding them by the billions, putting them in trucks and setting them to a slaughterhouse, that would make you feel what? If I had no emotional attachment to the dogs. I mean, it happens in China, doesn't it? I don't see it as that big an issue, personally. What if it was humans? If you didn't have no emotional attachment... But it's not humans. Then there's a line. There's a line between humans and animals. That's where you draw it. But you wouldn't like to see something... There's something like... I don't think you can call farming on an industrial scale the same as rounding up millions of people and killing them. That's not what happens to animals. That's what happens to animals. But it's not as... You can't... Is that a double standard? I'm not Jewish, right? But if I was, I think I'd be quite offended by the fact that you're... I never said nothing about Jews, by the way. No, of course you didn't. This is a hypothetical scenario to help you see the hypocrisy and the double standard. I think... I'm not trying to offend... No, no, no, I understand. Okay, I'm not saying anything like that. I know where you're going, though. Yeah, right? It's not... I don't think... I think you would be very offended by... I'm trying to put it in the human context so you empathize. And I think that's the wrong way to go about trying to get me to empathize. Okay. I tried dogs with him, he had pet dogs. I've got pet dogs as well. You've got pet dogs? Yeah. What if someone put your dog in the gas chamber and chopped them up for bacon? Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah, no, obviously I'll be very upset, right? Because I've got an emotional attachment to my dog. Yeah, but like... It's different to some dogs in China which someone else do you think? Don't have an emotional attachment. But then you get, oh, where's the difference? Where's your dogs in there, dog? Exactly. And the individual dog, it's not all about us. This is what I'm trying to get people to be altruistic and think about the individual. Because issues of justice should always be looked at from the victim's perspective, not the oppressors. Is that true? Yes. Like, you know, normal issues of justice. We say how did it make the victim feel? That's how you would judge it, yeah? That's not the only way you can judge it. But it is the... In a human context, it's far more important to look at things from the victim's perspective because they... So in my opinion, humans are... and the human experience is more valuable than an animal's experience of its existence. But then when you bring in farming, you can't make an argument or the entirety of an argument based solely upon the animals have this experience and that is clearly bad and then they're killed off. So that's all very much one way, right? There's got to be some other flipside I'd love to hear the justification for this treatment of animals. I'd love to hear one good reason why when we've got alternatives. Like why should we do it to them? They've done nothing wrong to us. They've done nothing wrong to you, you or me. Maybe one of us was viciously attacked by a pig one day. No, pigs never attacked anyone, have they? Like a cow or chicken, they're so innocent and vulnerable and they trust us and we betray them. I think it's unfair to ask me to come up with a whole argument on this. One reason why you think it's okay. The reason we do it, ultimately when we make a decision, what we're doing is doing a cost-benefit analysis. The benefit is that it's an entirely selfish reason why we don't do that. It's a selfish reason but is it wrong to be selfish is then what you've got to ask? Only if someone else is going to be hurt because of it. Only if your selfish actions hurt someone else. If I have no emotional attachment to the pig that's getting hurt then it doesn't affect me personally. That's why I can eat harm and not feel any guilt. Do you think that would be justified in any other context? Just because it doesn't hurt you personally it's okay to go out and do whatever we want to others? No, because you're about to compare it to humans again. No, your dogs will compare it to your dogs. Dogs are different. If I come and hurt your dogs it doesn't matter because it didn't. Dogs have... What do they have that pigs don't have? I think they do have more rights than pigs. Why? In a legal system. Because that's what the law says. Do you think the law is always moral? No, no, no, no. We established that, didn't we? So what is the justification for doing this to pigs? It's okay if you can't find one because I've tried, I've tried for a long time. No human has an emotional attachment to the pig that's got... Your argument is that emotional attachment determines how we should treat issues of justice. Emotional attachment, whether you like someone, whether you like... whether you have an emotional attachment to a certain dog or even a human. A child. The most innocent and vulnerable. Not necessarily justice but it does determine our decisions. But it doesn't make it right, does it? That's what I'm asking whether you think it's right or wrong. I didn't say it was right, did I? I said that we're selfish. If we're trying to be altruistic, then yes, okay, you could argue you shouldn't do it. But I'm arguing that humans aren't altruistic people. And is that a problem? It depends. Is that a problem in our society? I can't tell you about the sustainability of it, really. Do you think if we were less selfish, more altruistic, more compassionate and cared about individuals like something that you might consider insignificant like farmed animals? If we cared more about farm animals, would we not care more about all individuals? And if we cared about their suffering, we maybe wouldn't turn a blind eye to all suffering. Do you think this sort of selfish mentality breeds a society full of me, me, me and not looking at others? I think humans are inherently set up to be selfish. I don't think that at all. I don't think you are, mate. I think you're thinking more about this now. I think everyone's got compassion in their heart. It's just you have to open that up. I've got compassion in my heart, too. But you could argue that compassion in itself is selfish because when you do something of benefit to wider society, that, in turn, force has benefit to you. You feel like you've done something good. It gives you that sense of... And you're doing good to another too. So it's a win-win. Compassion's a win-win. Selfish is just a win and a lose. But... Yeah? Which one's more logical to you? Compassion or being selfish? Which one feels more right? If humans are rational people, so they're only selfish at the end of the day. That's what studies show in this kind of situation with pigs being slaughtered. We'll leave it with you guys, though. Has your position changed since this conversation about issues of justice when animals are involved? No. You would still continue to eat them? Nothing's changed. I don't believe you. Something in your eyes is saying you're thinking about it, no? No. Not at all. Yourself? It hasn't changed, but I'll look into it for my own personal interest. I'll give you a card because that was a really interesting debate with you guys. Thank you. There's some information on the back, some resources. You can do a 22-day vegan challenge if you want to try it. And, you know, after that 22 days, see if you feel any better. Here's some resources for you, too. Are you going to now... Are you now going to cut that in a little bit so it looks like complete fun? No, not at all. I can just see, like, the question and then just the silence. No. No, not at all. Not at all. I think that was a very productive conversation myself. I think that's one of the best I've had, just because... I would buck as to be fair. I'd buck as to be decent. No. I think that was a productive conversation. I think we got somewhere and we thought about things we don't think about, which is... That's all I can do. I can only plant some seeds and lead you to something, and it's up to you what you do. You might not change. It's really an interesting conversation. Yeah, yeah. They're very difficult questions. They are difficult questions. They don't really have answers. I don't suppose it is good. And you've got to ask yourself, why aren't they easy to answer these questions? That's what I'm going to give you. Yeah. Google it, man, but just Google it in here, bro. That's all you need to use. The worldwide web has more answers than in there. No, no, no, no. Thanks, heaps guys. Thank you very much. I appreciate that more than you know. Thank you.