 Thank you so much. We're going to be joined now by my colleague Jessica Cardishon who is director of our DC office here and our federal policy initiatives Jessica also taught in New York City and Then actually worked in congressman and senator Bernie and Sanders office before she meandered her way over to the learning policy Institutes, so we're delighted to have Jessica who will help moderate the panel and introduce the rest of the panel I will welcome up our panelists We will start with Seguin Eubanks if you can join us, please He's the inaugural director of the Center for Education Innovation and Improvement and visiting professor at the University of Maryland College Park Dr. Eubanks also served as serves as the chair of the Board of Education for Prince George's County Public Schools 132,000 students school district bordering Washington DC We were also really excited to have Antonio Iglesias who is a earth science teacher It's very hard at East side high school in Newark, New Jersey We're who taught for the past six years and he's a graduate of the Newark Montclair urban teacher residency program And last but definitely not least is Nyla Williams a student leader and board member with the California for Justice In Oakland, California. She's currently pursuing her high school diploma diploma through Gateway to college at Lainey College and plans to become a teacher Lots of great perspectives, so we will start with you, Seguin You're currently the chair of the Board of Education at Prince George's County Public Schools We saw the calculator for Prince George's County and Desiree's presentation. Yes Could you share a bit of context for the information that Desiree shared regarding Prince George's County and the impact of teacher turnover on your district? Sure happy to first. Thank you very much for having me and most important Thank you for continuing to make this issue of teacher turnover Central to the work that we do in improving education We mentioned Prince George County's a hundred and thirty two thousand student district bordering DC one of the 17th or 18th largest in the country When I read the report, it's interesting when you look at the demographics County and when you look at the indicators For teacher turnover, we pretty much have the trifecta This proportionally high number of title one schools we have about 64 percent of our students who receive free and reduced lunch We have we are a predominantly minority school district about 60 percent of our students African-American another 30 percent are Latino Hispanic a number that has about tripled over the past 15 years We have we are actually a district that has Predominantly minority teaching workforce I think is unique to a whole lot of other districts in the country We are both proud of that fact and at the same time when you look at the data about turnover It indicates that Some significant challenges and so when I look at that data you're Our numbers are slightly different, but pretty much the same basically We have About 10,000 teachers and so the number that you have represents about a 10 percent annual turnover And that is about what our data tells us that we turn over about 10 percent of our teachers Every year now 10 percent in one sense is like an average number when you look at what's going on But in a district our size it means we have to recruit over a thousand new teachers each and every year Just to keep up with the pace of our turnover rate And so it is indeed an ongoing challenge. It means that we have Gotten we're also in a state in Maryland that is that is not a high producing state So we have a pretty much international recruitment system We go all over the country and in different parts of the world to meet our recruitment needs In a district that spent I think a lot of time early in this process getting really good at recruitment And and now have started to pay more attention to that other end of it I think that we spent a lot of time just thinking hey, this is part of the process What are we gonna do? We need a thousand. Let's get a thousand. We need a thousand. Let's get a thousand We got pretty good at it But but we started to need to pay significantly more attention to how we keep the folks who we get My only other thought when I look at that number 25 million There's fair to say If we cut retention in half as a school board member, I salivate about what I might do with 12.5 million dollars We are currently in negotiation with our employees now the recession hit our county hard and we have recovered at a slower rate than the rest of the region so our Employees are pretty far behind in the salary schedule and 12.5 million dollars represents pretty close to about a full step in salary for our workforce When I look at things like we have 209 buildings We have some of the oldest buildings in the state of Maryland and around the country We have a multi-million dollar maintenance backlog But I wouldn't do a 12.5 million dollars just to hire a second shift of maintenance so that people can fix our building This is not to mention the new buildings. We have to build this is just to keep the ones that we have running We are still I was at a parent and community advisory council when a parent came to me last night And that's why there were 40 teachers in her middle school algebra one class And what we could do to reduce class sizes. So when you look at what the impact of Of this number is it's pretty dramatic and I think if we were able to do something about it It could make a significant difference in how we can can help students in our district Continue answering that question around impacts. So now that you're a senior in high school in the Gateway to College program Can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and how you've experienced effects of teacher turnover? well Public school for almost more than Remember a lot of it in my freshman Freshman years usually it starts off really unorganized It's your first chance in dye school. You're not really prepared. So the last thing you want to see is the teacher But that was my experience I had this pre-algebra teacher who only lasted two weeks It was clearly she was clearly unorganized the class was unorganized and But the students in check she wasn't in check either so eventually she she ended up slapping one of the students and A few days after she she resigned before she got fired I guess but Clearly the reasons why she left was like she says that she she wasn't really ready Had a lot of kids. She was tired. She didn't want to do all the reading. Oh It was clear that she just wasn't prepared to be a teacher at the time I wasn't in California for justice. So I was kind of questioning mode. How did she become a teacher? I didn't I didn't understand the process at that time Didn't get the proper training due to the fact that great if everyone gonna make sure the red light is on and just pull the microphones a little closer Antonio so you've heard And I'll talk about it from their experience. Are you observing the same turnover in Newark public schools? And if so, what do you think is contributing that turnover and yours? Thanks everybody and thanks for having me. I would say definitely It's definitely what we're seeing in Newark for example So I'm entering my sixth year now and in just my department in the science department We have 15 positions and now entering my sixth year I have seen 16 teachers leave so pretty much every position has been lost and replaced in some capacity And I think it's what was in the research. What's a goon and what Nile have been talking about It's a mix of everything half of it is compensation. I'm from a district where For whatever reason the salary schedules ended up the way they were many teachers who are earning masters actually earn less Money for the same steps as teachers who have bachelors, which is a whole other fun side story Beyond that. It's a lot of as Desiree was saying in the research where we all have science backgrounds, especially So we are leaving for these lucrative positions We are seeking opportunities that cater to our needs because we've really invested in this world of science And we want especially as I do as a teacher. I want to share that world of science with them but the reasons for us staying become less and less and also echoing this idea of administration where And I think it's also compounded by the fact that when you have many new teachers on top of it now that same Administrator has to cater to the needs of many new teachers and then the exhaustion of these resources where on top of it If the administrators not prepared now on top of it They're catering to many teachers who aren't prepared and it just becomes this feedback loop To the point where it's like, you know defense of the dark arts and Harry Potter and it's just every year It's a new teacher and so I think I'm really seeing the same exact thing It's it's just every year. It's a new face for the not only for the students But for the teachers and for the administration and and I think the frustration of That also caters to it too because there's there's no It's always in transition. It's always in flux. There's no sense of being static So I definitely seeing a lot of the same things So this idea around teachers leaving because not where they are It's not an affordable profession. I know Desiree spoke to it during her presentation In Prince George's County, you hire First-year teachers often stay for a couple of years and then move to more affluent districts such as Counties such as Montgomery and Howard counties. Can you speak to this phenomenon? Why it occurs and what you're doing to try and make sure that you keep those excellent teachers in your district? Sure Yeah, that is a phenomenon that we've dealt with for a long time particularly in the in the Washington, DC You know a lot of perception and then some combined reality And the fact is that we do have seen I can tell you there's a lot of movement in between counties Again just this week. I met with a teacher who left for DC Who because the salary was higher? But like the working conditions back in Prince George's County and came back for a pay cut To come back to the county so so part of what our struggle is one is clearly one of Compensation I mentioned I mentioned that we're significantly behind our colleagues in other counties and we battle We have a relatively constant battle of perception for our county again. We're a county that is That when you really peel back some of what we do we're incredibly successful Our data shows that our African-American students are achieving at rates higher than African-American students in any other county in the state Possibly across the nation But at the same time overall We're still the second lowest performing district in the state of Maryland based on most other indicators And so we battle this constant battle of perception that Prince George's County is not the place You want to be that if you get your stuff together and you get you come in through Prince George's County We have a pretty big alternative route program. You get your certification You get your credentials and you move on the greener pastures. So we really tried to fight that perception. We've actually Interestingly kind of contrary to the data. We have a resident teacher program and over the past several years we've been able to reduce our actually our attrition through our resident teacher program is significantly lower than Then then across the rest of the district We believe that's partly because most of the teachers who we recruit in that program are local teachers people who live in the county Live in this live in the state of Maryland. I Will I can't say this without Linda being right here put an editorial comment that It was up to me as school board chair I would turn our resident teacher program into a true residency model is what it really needs to become so that we deal with Not only with doing better with retention, but we're getting folks who are better prepared To be effective from day one on the job that we have work to do in that area But those are kind of just a few of the ways in which we kind of continue struggle I will mention we've tried to be creative with that a couple of years ago We started a middle college program in the health sciences and We've had our second cohort of graduates who graduate from High school and community college on the same day is a great program and this September We launched a new one specifically related to careers in teaching and education. We're very proud of our teaching career Academy And so we have our first cohort of 50 students who just started as freshmen in our career Academy with the idea of Really building grow your own programs and having grad graduates who graduate four years from now with both a high school diploma and An associate's degree on their way to careers in teaching So we're trying to do a lot more to kind of keep a build good grow your own programs Thank you one of the efforts that you described was the residency program Antonio You're a graduate of the New York Montclair Urban Residency program Can you talk a bit about how that program prepared you for teaching and did it have any influence on your decision? So yeah, thanks for Sigu and for hyping up residency programs for speak It's It's very multifaceted the really amazing experience that I had with my residency And so just to really clue people into Residencies and Desiree sort of primed it as well as this idea of sort of like a medical residency But with teachers instead and so we travel as a cohort my cohort had eight of us And we were individuals who were in the schools from day one with our mentor teachers And we took classes together and we were a small community And I think that's one of the cornerstones for why we felt so prepared first of all was just support This idea that we knew people that we identified with we were always placed with them So they would try to put us in pairs or trios in schools so that when we were placed We had familiar faces that we could rely on as resources But beyond that it's really about the philosophy of the program that I was in so it was only math science education So first off really trying to hit that niche market of areas that tend to not be well prepared But on top of it well, I'd actually just elaborate on that giving the sense of changing also the way you teach science So it becomes inquiry driven it becomes student-centric this idea this paradigm shift of you are no longer Instructing students about rote memorization, but you are trying to put the ownership with the students as well And then on top of it We were also trained in having social justice in our classroom and and that caters in both directions Not only for the students where you're really trying to foster democratic policies or processes in the classroom But on top of it for why I stay right? I stay to advocate for them I was learning how to really be a social advocate on behalf of them And so you know when they were trying to turn our school into a turnover program that would see us have longer days for a Very small stipend We felt this was not in the needs of our students and many of us within our cohort spearheaded this response to not permitting this because we're there for the students We're there for the communities the stakeholders that are most valuable are them And then just to go back full circle back to how the residency furthers their cater support is we also have induction So this idea that once you are Released into the wild of teaching you are not abandoned. It's this idea that For three years after I had retired teachers who would visit my classrooms periodically and make sure that I still felt Supported beyond my mentor my in-school mentor and it comes to the point where the program becomes so sustainable that now Full circle. I'm now working with the induction program And so this idea that it creates cultures in small microcosms that are meant to build So we started in one school as a lab and now we really have impact or three or four high schools So that's really the idea is that they're they're small at first and there's a lot in the to put up front, but The residual effects of it really addresses a lot of what this whole idea of turnover is it's reducing that And I think it's an important to point out that you also spoke to not only Providing you with the support that you need but also to develop the skills that you had to be a more effective teacher which I think efforts Nilya you are a board member with Californians for justice and you work with them on Relationship-centered schools. Can you tell us a little bit about that campaign? Why teacher turnover is an important issue for the campaign and what you're doing to adjust? so the relationship relationship-centered school campaign is more about Making sure that students and teachers feel supported in their schools and each region has a different way of Targeting targeting solutions regarding this campaign or campaign has a three bucket list So the first one is investing in staff. The second one is creating space space for relationship building and the third one is Implementing student voice so currently in Oakland. We are focusing on investing in staff and one of those solutions is one definitely better pay of course and the second one is Really upgrading the way we train teachers, especially high-quality principles We specifically want to upgrade our training for newer teachers so that when they come into The teaching environment they're the classroom environment. It's not you know as disorganized Effort so before we turn it over to the audience for questions Just want to ask each of you a final question before the audience questions What's one thing that you think it's important for our audience to understand regarding the impact of teacher turnover from your perspective as A school board member a teacher and a student. So maybe we'll start with with Naila Oh If there's one message you want the audience to kind of understand around the impact of teacher turnover What can be done about it? What would you like to share with them? Well for an example as an impact I am a definite impact for For me I had some good teachers in public school as well as one of them was a history teacher of mine and She kept the students in check. She checked on their grades. She had a positive relationship with them and she she Made the classroom environment very comfortable in a way where the students were able to Learn good habits that they needed to learn in life more than just in school. So I feel like You know teachers like that Are need to be more like more into teacher training We need to have teachers like that into teacher training so that we can have teachers like that able to Stay in the district Because those are the kind of teachers that that they stay there and they really build a positive relationship. I Feel like Every student like the teacher I had every student should have a teacher like that. So I feel like that really just goes into the way of how we train and How we just really support her staff So I think for me from hearing just the comments and I think the big challenge when your teachers You're just so in the realm of teaching that you forget that there's this whole world existing outside of that and I think with teacher turnover, it's just this reminder that it impacts everybody it impacts the students who are there, obviously That's the most direct impact But it impacts the teachers who stay and keep witnessing the frustrations that both you have and the students have Impacts the administration it impacts the community who you want to engage But they feel disenfranchised by this idea that you can't create a safe space because there is no Sense of being static and it impacts above I mean it impacts the policymakers who don't know how to solve the problem because it is so multi-faceted and I think we're This is definitely going in the right direction, but I think it's just this reality that Everybody is affected in some capacity. I think that's really my takeaway so I Think my one take ways is so much that we can do We believe that doesn't take resources however Really hard to think of of doing this without making the investments I think about what I could do if I if we cut attrition half and save 12.5 million But I also think about the fact that I need 12.5 million to invest in order to cut attrition in half so for example, we We have a new teacher Academy. We have an induction program We have a really good peer assistance and review program But fewer than half of all of our new teachers get those services Because we don't have enough mentors. We don't have enough peer review coaches Everybody everyone gets the kind of new teacher Academy weekend, you know two days before school Everyone gets that but once they get into the classroom and they start to struggle Those with the highest need get get support But the everyday teachers who are doing their best who seem to be hanging okay Tend not to get the support that they need and deserve And so if we were a if we would be to get more mentors or to or to expand the kind of resources that we had Then then I think that that we go a long way But it is about how we combine a different approach to being more bold about the investments that we make With approaches to change in the cultures of our schools in ways that don't take money But changing culture is a pretty hard thing to do as well For our next panel we have time for audience questions for Sugun Antonio Nila and for Desiree as well We have a microphone at the center I thoroughly enjoy the presentation Excuse me today. I find it very very exciting, but my question is this When we talk about teachers we talk about students our voices tend to be lost in In the in the nation, how do we build? Coalitions, how do we build and bring in policymakers because we cannot do this by ourselves? We already know success stories exist in other countries, you know Linda's been doing this for decades and decades and decades and decades and should I say decades? We know what works, but how do we build? How do we build that coalition? How do we bring the coalition and have folks up there the parents that community members very alongside of you? Echoing the same things that you're saying. Yeah, sure. Why not? So I mean, that's really that's the number one challenge right now is how do you get your voices heard? And it's just Focusing on publicizing as best you can and you have to start small I mean, we have very strong ties to the councilman in our area and Really trying to get the sense of creating neighborhood schools again and making it a community where you start small and you have to keep Advocating I mean that's all it really comes down to and it's exhausting and tiresome and but you have to work and finesse the networks that you have I mean, I work very closely with Montclair State And I will forever use them as my advocates But you have to find those people who are willing to speak up because I mean and it's weird because especially from Newark, New Jersey We received that Facebook money all those many years ago, and it went to nothing Basically went to the administrative costs that it went it found many ways So I think it's it's making sure that the message is heard of where the money should go to and Reinforcing that that it should be going to preparation. It should be going Not necessarily more bottom-up than top-down because I think that's our frustration But how to get that message heard that's been the frustration since at least I've only been in it for seven years day one for me but That's what I've seen ever since my journey has begun. I just know and obviously we have to build these correlations and from just from a kind of a Local level Getting student voice involved in engaged in this and getting parent voice involved in gauging. It's actually I published to mention this earlier It's pretty exciting for us that we have a parent and community advisory council And the parent co-chair brought before our parent council that the issue that the council should focus on this year Is teach a morale in order to address teacher attrition? So these parents who are active in the schools are looking around and saying hey, we're sick of seeing Long-term subs for our for our students who are sick of seeing new teeth new faces every year And they want to be involved and engaged in being part of that solution for us So building those local community particularly bringing student voice and parent voice into the mix. I think is important as well And the organization in California for justice we we are all about Student voice and we try to make we try to make sure that we have students speaking to a Lot of decision-makers like the school board in the school district as much as possible We we always go to the school board the district and we tell them that that it's important to have student voice in our schools and our teachers really understand that and We've had a lot of meetings with our teachers and for members for students are able to just say what really needs to be going down I feel like that should be something all in a nationwide student voice is very important and what our organization does is Organize those students so that they have a platform where they can just say their voice have an opportunity to say my experience and What's going on in my classrooms and it gives a really good insight like right now on Well, really what we really need for our schools Thanks. Thank you, Jessica. Thank you panelists great question I think forums like this help keep this on the policy radar and build that advocacy movement So I appreciate what you're doing today. My name is Ash Vasudeva Carnegie Foundation advancement of teaching My question for you is in the report. You identified Accountability as a major source of teacher dissatisfaction Can you talk about how that's playing out in your systems? And whether or not you see these these pressures changing with SL legislation So I guess from what I'm gathering from the report from accountability it has to do Basically what's expected of us on the day-to-day and there was that one slide where it talked about, you know I think it was that first one that really hit hardest for me Which is this idea of this is the one teacher who had the expanding sense of duties and responsibilities for the same pay And I mean hey, I was on a contract freeze for three years So I know that more so especially now And the reality was that every day and it's always the science department because we're we're always pushing ahead But then it's like oh, you're doing that. Let's do more. Let's do even more data. Can you collect even more data points? Can you have even more expansive? Lesson plans to the point where you're writing hours of lesson plans and time It takes to write one physical lesson plan is longer than teaching the lesson and it's just like where is this going wrong? And I mean I've been doing this for like seven years So I have the opportunity to sort of rehash and reimagine and reflect on what I've been doing But I think the challenge is that this accountability ends up feeling like compliance a lot of times And I feel like I am complying with the the needs and wants because what is the new hot button trend of this next? Cycle of teaching because there's always one there's always one I'm trying to think right now it's literacy in the classroom I've been teaching literacy because every teacher teaches literacy, but they're getting it to the point where they don't know their Pedagogical intentionality for why they're doing it They just think if they see the results then obviously they were the reasons why it happened and it has nothing to do with the teachers Because we're giving them a hundred and ten percent all the time and that's really the challenge with the accountability And that's that's the frustration on top of it so I think number one you bark bring up a really good point Osh because When I when I looked at a lot of what we've learned about teach turnovers and particularly new the Accountability pressures that are that are in this data. I think is is showing That just as many of us have suspected particularly those who represent the teachers for so long that the accountability pressures are having a Significant impact on teachers willingness to stay in the classroom From I'll be honest from a at a local level our teachers Haven't seen or heard any real change When it comes to essa right it's still I think that Our teachers like a whole lot of teachers probably have a Skeptical wait-and-see. Yeah, right. We'll believe that it's going to be less pressure when we see it And so you know like a whole lot of other places are right in the middle We just put our plan in and And I will say that over the last couple of years We've gone through a rather rather significant process of test reduction A lot because of what we've heard from teachers and parents that said this test thing is getting out of control And we I forget the number. I think we're at about 15 or 16 percent less time in testing this year than we were last year And so hopefully that will begin to address it But I think really the jury is out on on the impact the SM might have on teachers I'm Saroja Warner with the Council of Chief State School officers But I'm asking this question as an advocate for children and communities right now Sugun I want to come back to a comment you made earlier because it Really spoke to my spirit when you called out that this work can't be done pro bono and for free It will require an investment of resources. And so I'm really curious to hear I think particularly from you Sugun and where you sit in your experiences working in Prince George's County about How this question of stakeholder engagement, I think this is bigger than this This is about being able to see where people's priorities are by where they invest their resources This for me is a civil rights issue at its core. I look at this data. Thank you, right? I look at this data and these are the Students who are living on the margins and their families who are most impacted by what is happening with teacher turnover So how else do we make this argument that there is no greater public good right now? That we need to be investing in then in solving this problem Syros you can answer the question too if you want Look, I'll just say briefly You know I've been on the board for four years and had a long 30-year career In education before that and this is no joke when it comes to how we look at issues of investment We tried in Prince George's County to get bold And put a huge tax increase reform in that was going to dramatically be able to Increase compensation for teachers and and put it in a crashed and burned quicker than anyone can imagine and was still recovering from that at the same time with you know, it's it's always a very heated debate with you know We do we still have a where I have a 1.9 billion dollar budget So our teachers are telling us right now Use what use what you got to give us what we need and it's a reasonable argument And we're kind of kind of it's always a kind of back-and-forth about how you By how you can Make make these tough choices I will just say you know our data shows that while we're you know We think that given our circumstances would do pretty good at teacher turnover We're still at about double what our surrounding counties are With the exception of DC the Maryland counties that surround us a four or five six percent turnover each year And they're at about 15 to $20,000 per student Higher than they are than we are in spending Everyone wants to think that that's some kind of a weird coincidence It's hard to imagine by the time is said and done how you don't begin to make those investments but part of it is about kind of faith that that Communities and voters particular need to have in school districts in order to demand it because until they do Until they demand it The policymakers are not are not going to touch investing in education with Temple And I don't know can you pick up on that kind of in the work that you're that you're doing Do you see it being communicated as a civil rights issue? Is that how it's being talked about? Particularly on in your work Yeah, I mean that was the whole foundation of why the residency exists the way it does It's it's really to become agents of change and to create these voices for the students And that's why we are about Fostering democracy in the classroom because we we got to make sure that they are the voices that get to be heard As the key stakeholders and recipients of education because if it's not for them then for whom else? So just to briefly address it. Yeah, absolutely Um, I definitely think it is a civil rights issue It's pretty clear that many of our teachers Are really struggling because the lack of you know the perception that it's just really lacking support to our teachers People have a really poor perception on teachers. So Definitely How how are we going to fix this is to shift our perceptions that we have the teacher Um Specifically to more like a more supportive perception I know In in Singapore their teachers, they're called nation builders and Because they're they're they're moving their knowledge. They're giving their knowledge about their nation to to the next generation And I feel like we should really have that perception on teachers our districts. Good morning Before I ask my question I would like to preface by saying that I just graduated from high school So and I actually attended a title one school in Colorado one of the lowest performing academic environments in the state of Colorado predominantly Hispanic and In my experience I had six different principles over the course of four years. So the turnover was actually More experienced at the administrative level And I felt I know that you guys talked a lot about the residency programs for teachers and how to support our teachers but I feel as though this is really kind of like an inverted pyramid our Legislators at the state aren't in I feel as though they're not in touch with our nation or like our leaders at the national level and Our state Leaders aren't in touch with our school boards our school boards aren't in touch with our teachers Our teachers aren't in touch with our community and our parents which leads to the students therefore it is a chain reaction and I feel as though I Just I would like to know in your experience as an educator as a student and as a member of school board What we can do to prepare our administration. I had a lot of administrative members who never step foot in a classroom policy was being made in a way that I think It said yeah, let's have community forums Let's talk about this and we did put our input, but it was never actually implemented and so a lot of these things look great on paper But they're not actually being enforced and Yeah, so I was just wondering because I Am very very passionate about it and I just feel as though a lot of administrators a lot of teachers and a lot of policy members Basically just use these title one schools as a stepping stone for their career and not really because they're invested in the civil rights aspect and in the actual community We do have time for Rob's question But maybe we can talk just around kind of maybe soon the administrative support around what some efforts Maybe you're doing around keeping administrators in the district as well Sure. I mean, it's just if it did the same study on administrative. I think we find we find some some similar work in Prince George's County. We have we work with the Wallace Foundation for the past five years on For to to Support principles. I think it's interesting when we've done a Lot and actually been nationally recognized for the kind of leadership development work We've done we still have work to do when you look at some of our feedback from our Numbers of teachers who don't feel supported by their principal is Remarkably high, but how we support and and sustain our our leaders is Is equally as important to this effort and and I and I I would just say the way We deal with teachers and administrators traditionally in public schools is we don't Don't pay you for your hard work So our reward structure is that you move to easier jobs that is still the primary Structure and so of course you started a title one school as a teacher and you cut your teeth as a new teacher in a title one school And when you've gotten some experience in some seniority under your belt You move to an easier school and principals are doing the same thing so until we can flip that reward structure and start to reward Our most capable folks for taking on the most challenging assignments that whole process of Principle and teacher movement between schools Won't be solved. So we have time just for one more question And I'll make it quick. That was an excellent question by the way Thank you, Jessica panelists Linda and your team. My name is Rob. Mahaffey. I'm the executive director of the rural school and community trust We advocate on behalf of the 12 million children that live in rural and remote places And I'm really struck in the research. So Desiree. I turn to you That the states the two states that have the highest turnover rate are Arizona and New Mexico State the two states that have the lowest turnover rate are my home state of West Virginia and Utah Those are for very rural states. You get outside of Charleston and Salt Lake City Phoenix What are you seeing in the data that makes a difference in rural communities because we know The rural teachers tend to be there their lifers. They come they start they stay they never leave and and that has its advantages and its challenges, right or Teachers are on a constant churn. There isn't sort of this core set of teachers Like Antonio that have been there six seven eight years So are you finding anything because this is a key issue for us at the rural school and community trust? pretty consistently that Schools in cities have higher turnover rates no matter what region you're looking at But that rural schools were sort of Different from cities and that in some places in the West in particular rural schools had especially high turnover rates higher than Mix up my my stats, but I want to say it was higher than cities in in Western States Versus in the South the Midwest the Northeast Rural schools had some of the lowest turnover rates. So it is an interesting question. It's not one that we investigated deeply but It you know, I think it's it's one that we will want to dig into a bit more You know, it's hard-looking specifically at you know specific state data using the the source that we were looking at but regionally that is that is a Something that we noticed I wish I could tell you give you some some reasons why that might be But it's not something that we looked into I'd like to thank our first panel for setting the stage on What this looks like in practice and we will now turn over to our policy panel who can talk more about the solution side Although that can help support actually the solutions that you're implementing at the local level. So thank you all very much