 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by my old friend of the show Nick Marguerite of Nicky Moon symbols Nick welcome back Thanks so much for having me Bart. It's great to be here. Yeah, you've kind of become our our symbol guy you're the you're a repeat guest and You are a symbol craftsman a master So it's really cool to have you here and get your perspective on this topic which is I Think just awesome that that you kind of brought it to me. It's it's myths symbol myths Which I think there's a lot of them. There are quite a few. Yeah, and I mean, we're all guilty of it We're all guilty of thinking like B8 means it's cheap or You know the vintage case or the best symbols ever made or anything like that. So Yeah, so this is really cool We had some that were submitted to us from people on Instagram which I'm gonna try and call people out as we go but without I Don't want to disrupt the flow. So maybe at the end I'll just give some shout outs to people who gave suggestions because sure otherwise I probably should have prepped that beforehand, but you want to pop them in it's cool. Yeah All right, Nick. Well, then why don't we hop in here and what would you call myth number one? All right. Well before we even approach myth number one I just want to make like one point about symbols. I mean actually it applies to life in general But especially with symbols, there's no like universal truths. No universal. Yes. No, right wrong because all symbols are made differently So it can't nothing can apply like a blanket statement to everything, you know You just always have to take that into consideration. So but so going into myth number one if it's b20 bronze It's automatically good Okay, so I'm sure like I Are you familiar with this concept that you know b20 is the superior metal and yeah, it's the you know inferior metal Yeah, well that can be true for a lot of the time b20 like anything else is It's a craft product and it needs to be made well for it to be good So well made b20 is pretty superior to everything else, but poorly made b20 is You know leave something to be desired Yeah, we always have to take that into consideration like there's like some you know cheaper like those Wuhan new traditionals not to say anything bad about Wuhan, but yeah a lot of the marketing was like well They'd be 20 their hand hammered and they're super cheap and it's like well Yeah, listen to them versus like listen to a Istanbul agape, you know something and there's a noticeable difference Yes, they're both technically b20 But the quality said b20, you know, it's it varies quite a bit Well and like we said in the previous podcast That Nick was on which was the history of symbol making which is one of my favorites of all time just because of The preparation and all that that went into it on your part, but on that note. I know Pistey is pretty much uses a lot of b8 right and they're very High-quality very high quality these b8 b15 is their signature proprietary alloy And then they also use a form of b20 for some of their lines, but it's different than the Turkish b20 a little bit It's theirs is made in Germany a little bit more a little bit different, but Yeah, they use that that b8 for a lot of their professional stuff and they just craft it Very very very well and they get an outstanding result. You know, yeah, it's interesting how you can I Don't know I feel like like you said that every symbol is different and how people make it is different and you can Just in Wuhan, but there's something to be said about those cheaper symbols Where not everyone can afford? Oh for a $400 ride. So absolutely. There's a place for everything Certainly, certainly. Yeah, I just you know, I'm just making the the distinction that It I just don't want anyone to just think okay. Well if it checks these boxes b20 hand-hand rubble blah boom It's automatically it's gonna be a home run, you know Yeah, what do you tip? Do are you typically b20 with Nicky moon? Mm-hmm. That's what I use for them Used b8. Yes, I do. I do quite a bit of b8 stuff as well It's hard to get people on board with it though because of the pervasive myth They still have this thing in their head that it's a cheaper thing and it's like yeah, no It's all about time invested in the in the work, you know, that's really where cost comes into a product How much time was put into it? Yeah, you can't really uh, if something if there's more and more and more time put into it Obviously, it's more expensive. There's no way around that. No And we went in depth on in the last podcast about the difference between the b8 and b20 So anybody who's interested in that I would definitely suggest going and listening to that one because we really kind of dug into it pretty deep there Yeah, for sure. All right, that's a great one nice easy one to knock off So myth number two then if it's hand hammered, it's automatically good Yep, and this kind of is an extension of what we were just talking about so There's different kinds of hand hammering. That's something to consider There's like factory style hand hammering, which is any time you think of a factory you think of like a production line Okay, it's everything is set up man manufacturing is an art Okay, people go to college and study manufacturing become experts in manufacturing And they go to companies and they their whole purpose is to just teach the company how to do everything faster and more efficiently So any company or any business that's involved in manufacturing on a larger scale is Is is doing things quickly and efficiently to save money and conserve labor and all those things so Factory hand hammering is done as fast as possible Mm-hmm, and that doesn't always get the best result Which is why so many of the handmade Turkish symbols It's kind of a crapshoot like some of them are really really good and some of them are like, you know, it's okay But they're selling it as the same thing and that's because they're not taking that extra Time that a person like me can afford to do Because I'm not casting the metal. That's a whole other part of the process that takes a huge amount of time They've done all of that. So by the time I get my bronze All my time goes into the tuning sound hammering part, you know for them They just can't afford to spend that much time on Yeah, there's a little bit of it Where for you obviously being able to put in all the time and craft it, but I feel like it's like those So there's certain things where it's like Like with studio equipment like if you get a pair of headphones and they have the term studio headphones They're usually like a hundred dollars more or something or a thousand dollars more But like right, you know, you what I mean you throw hand hammered on it And then it's automatically like a different 100% it's like putting like no carbs or something on like on food You know when you go to the grocery store and like you buy something and it's like vegan no GMO blah blah blah It's like all these boxes they check, but they don't really mean anything like you got to look at what's actually in it, you know Yeah, so You know, that's that's one thing to consider Machine hammering it's a term you hear a lot when you when dissembles are discussed and that can mean different things There's different kinds of machines to hammer symbols like there's a pneumatic Blacksmith style forging hammer, which what this is doing is it's controlling the peen smack against the anvil But you as an operator still have to feed the symbol in and out of this machine and direct where the blows are going Which is a very different process than like a CNC style machine hammering Which is done on a lot of like the You know the newer minor stuff actually they've been doing it for a long time That is literally just set it and forget it you put the symbol blank in boop and it just Runs a program and yeah, it's done You know so there's different levels of human involvement in in machine hammering it depends on how that was done So again like the way feisty does there two thousand twos they're using a machine They're using b8, but the operators feeding the symbol in and out of the machine And he's shaping it sort of by hand with the aid of a machine and that's why those symbols sound so good Yeah, and I mean I Don't know because we're humans and there's this inherent fear that Soon will be you know enslaved by robots and Skynet and all that I feel like we need It to still have some human stuff But like there is there anything wrong with having a symbol that was completely created Start to fit. You know what I mean. No, I mean there's not it's just a human well It depends I get it all depends on what you want to use it for yeah, I think the more Loud and aggressive the music you're playing is the less you need your symbol to have all this nuance to it The symbol is literally just creating a high frequency that's cutting through all kinds of stuff Like it doesn't really matter if you're playing metal. I used to play metal like you don't need a symbol that has Full frequencies, you know, so in that instance. Yeah, big heavy B8 Machine thing is great, you know, yeah, but if you're playing jazz like that thing needs to have Full mood, you know the your soul needs to be pouring out of that symbol and the only way to get that is with the person the only way Hmm, you can't program even with the greatest algorithm in the world. You cannot program that Yet yet and the reason for it not to get to spend too much time on this one But you got to remember when you're hammering a symbol, it's not just about like, oh, there's like a protocol and I'm following it Every time you hit it something happens and then you have to react to it So it's a it's like a conversation you have with the metal So like how could you ever program that unless you had like artificial intelligence a machine that could recognize the changes that are happening as it's happening Which I'm sure we'll get there at some point, but yeah, right now the human brain is the only thing they can do that Absolutely, and obviously I'm just messing around where robots and all that stuff But like I think that that is the beauty of it and that natural That's why someone like you who's making these and is like touching every symbol is is the importance and the beautiful thing. So Cool, all right, then why don't we move on to myth three? What do you got? Okay? Myth three we got this one's about lathing. So the myth is lathing is all about removing weight or making a bright tonality Okay, um, yeah, I don't know how familiar you are with the process of No, could you like elevator pitch? What does late? What is the purpose of lathing? the original purpose of lathing was simply to get the oxide from the Casting melting tempering process off of the symbol to expose the bronze underneath The only way to do it was to strip away the outside and they did that with the lathe Now with all kinds of technological advances lathing can be used to accomplish a number of different things But the actual process of lathing a symbol doesn't just change the surface finish It also affects the shape and the tension of the symbol So you have to always consider that when you're making changes to the surface as well And then mm account for what you've done in a different way because it's all about balance Yeah, so it's one ingredient in one ingredient. It's one ingredient. So Basically like I'll get a lot of like modification requests, you know from people that'll be like hey, I have a whatever zilgin K cost them something or other ride and I I wanted to sound like this minor Half-laved thing right half lathe thing if you just lay this symbol will sound like that symbol, you know Mm-hmm, and it's like no, it'll look like it But yeah, there was way too many other factors that went into creating like that model like latheing is only one part of it And it's so the appearance alone, you know, isn't gonna necessarily change the full acoustics of the symbol. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does and I like how here on your Document you sent over which I'll share this too with people so they can kind of follow along in the show notes But about how there's also and I've heard Steel Turkington who's been on another episode he talked about how kind of reminds me of how bearing edges can sometimes be like a marketing You know term obviously bearing edges for sure latheing is important, but It's kind of a buzz thing too a little bit with you know, it is because I mean a company They want to sell a product. They don't have time to explain the whole process to you like that's way too long to put on On a 15-second plug or whatever like so they just have to give you like oh the edges the edges lathe and it does this and you're like Oh cool now. I want it, you know like I understand why but yeah, those things have gone into people's heads And they've sunk in as like truths and it's like well now It's that's just a little part of the story. So that's all I'm trying to try to get out there And that's not to say that I can't modify a symbol to sound like another symbol It's just that it may take way more steps than just lading it to look like it. You know I'm saying yeah, really yeah I mean, I think that modifying so so that whole process Kind of a side question would be like someone would send you Whatever a symbol that they're just not really happy with maybe they used to like it. Maybe it's too thick And then you just typically shave some weight off and work with it, right? How does that process work? Do you do do you add hammering? I mean, yeah, I fully basically in a lot of the Modifications I do you're basically getting like a brand new symbol I kind of take the thing back to a blank and then start over depending on how aggressive of a change you want, you know Sometimes it's like oh, hey, I like this symbol, but it's got this weird You know noise or a frequency that I don't like and I'm able to just remove that and send it back to them And they're happy and it's still kind of the same thing just frequency removed or frequency added But in other cases people have you know, I have this Z custom thing from the 80s And I don't play metal anymore like what else can we do with it? And then I really like that's a complete reimagination of that piece of material, you know That's a perfect example because those are such thick Just beefy symbols. So you just lay the bunch off and I turned anybody who's interested in seeing this I turned a power bell 22 inch power bell ride into like a power bell jazz ride And that's on my YouTube. So you can see yeah You can remove a ton of the weight and you can change the taper change the shape the tension at the whole thing Wow cool and Laving itself and we'll move on here, but that's something that You don't just go out in your garage and start leaving Symbols it seems it seems a little dangerous It's extremely dangerous and I caution anybody that you know doing it or trying to do it or whatever That machine is Extremely dangerous and it needs to be treated with a great deal of respect and caution and personal protective equipment and all that stuff But no, it's a I mean at any symbol company. It's like a four or five-year apprenticeship to learn how to To do anything like that like anything, you know, wow and it's taken me Easily that long if not longer to get to where I am, you know with it Yeah, yeah, man, that's awesome last question about leaving and then we'll move back to the list What do you do with all I think I asked this in the first episode But when you have like like I like watching your videos where you're leaving, but then there's obviously this giant pile of like like, you know Metal yeah shaved off. What do you do with that? I recycle it. Okay. Yeah, cool I didn't know if it was like melt it into another symbol or no if I had a foundry. That's what they do in the factories Yeah, they just turn that right into another symbol, but I don't have the capacity to to do that Fortunately, so yeah, there's a place in town here that that takes it and they give me a few bucks, you know, that's cool. Yeah All right, so next Myth which I think when I when I asked this on Instagram a bunch of people Asked this question which again, I'll shout you guys out. I'll go through and just list some names at the very end but The It's about cleaning symbols. There is an ideal way to clean symbols is kind of the myth Should you clean symbols? Shouldn't you clean symbols? This is like the big one. I think on our list here. This is like the biggest point of like Disagreement and and anger between symbol enthusiasts that I ever see like on the internet or in conversations People are very pain. It's like politics man, you know, they like they dig their heels into the ground Like this is where I stand on this But at the end of the day, there is no ideal way to clean a symbol. That's the truth There isn't everybody's like, oh, I got this stuff and I bought the stuff at Home Depot or I use a lemon Yeah, it might work for you, but it's not gonna work for everybody. I promise you and there's reasons for that First of all different types of bronze, right? Different companies use different ink for their logos one company might use a water-based ink another company might use an oil-based ink they might and then you know first company might use a A polyurethane clear coat and the other company might use wax or something else or a resin. So how could one products? Possibly work for all those different fads. It's just it doesn't exist. Yeah, it's just impossible So yeah, but then there's the whole other side of the argument where people are like, well, should you or shouldn't you like? I can't tell you that that's what do you want? You know? Yeah I mean what like I guess the question would be and I'm asking this kind of rhetorically I know the answer of like you why would you clean a symbol? Okay, so it would be because your symbols you bought and used one That's really grimy. It's got like green kind of spots on it or something. Yeah fingerprints all over it. Maybe you're Not in a bad way a little bit OCD or something. You don't like any I am so yeah, you like your clean symbols So those I guess are the reasons I mean is there any other I mean maybe there are sonic effects Yeah, yeah, like certain finishes do make a difference for sure like hey, you know brilliant versus a Patina versus whatever. Yeah, they're they do have different effects on the sound but keep in mind It's a piece of metal like yeah Just changing a little bit on the surface. Yes, you will get some different characteristics But in general it's still the same thing So like I've seen like oh you're gonna ruin it like you're not gonna ruin it dude That thing was made in lava temperatures. It was hammered. It was laid like That thing's been through a lot like a little bit of like ketchup isn't gonna change the game, you know what I'm saying Yeah, does that fall in this category the ketchup thing? I mean that's one of them Yeah, that's the one people some people are very passionate about ketchup on symbols and you know, that's fine, man Like just yeah, you know, whatever works for you. But yeah, the whole cleaning thing I've something I've struggled with is a manufacturer It's tough because like when I prepare a symbol, you know, I want to sell it to somebody as new It's new that's a new thing But they are people also want to hear it So I have to do sound demos and put them on my website So I make the symbol and then I put my logo on and go through all of that And then I play it and now it's got stick marks and fingerprints and stuff And yeah There really isn't a way to get that off completely without completely stripping everything on like the logo and stuff So it's it's it's tough. Sometimes I don't want to play him. I just want to put him away, you know But people want to hear him so Fortunately, most people don't care that much. I care more about it I really do like have like a low-level OCD situation going on So like it causes me a lot of distress when I'm making a symbol I'm so careful not to touch it or whatever else and then yeah My customer will come pick it up and they'll just put their big greasy fingers on it And I'm like, why did I spend two days like not sleeping? Yeah, and this guy just doesn't even care He doesn't even care, you know So what do you do? How do you clean them if you have to? Well, so I used I do logos differently than I used to the old method that I did logos Wasn't as robust and nice-looking as the method I use now So it was easier to remove so and it was easier to do and it was cheaper So if I had to I could just wipe that off and and do whatever I had to do to clean it Even relay that if I had to and then put that logo back on now The logos I use it's very expensive ink very, you know kind of tricky process I don't want to do that twice. I hate doing logos. It's like the part that I loathe the most so I Just try to keep them clean. I try to not let them get dirty That's a good point If they do I use like a tiny bit of like dish soap and a little bit of water on a microfiber rag sometimes will take stuff off Just don't let that your finger oils get into it. So I'll handle them with gloves, you know That makes sense. I mean, I'm the guy with the big greasy hand who's just grabbing on and yeah, which is fine I mean, it's it's an instrument, right? Like who cares really cares But we just get caught up in all this neurotic stuff And I was actually testing them nylon tip sticks Don't leave nearly as much of a mark on a symbol and I was doing all my demos with nylon tips And then people started complaining they're like, why are you why are you doing that? I was like because I'm trying to keep them looking good. Yeah, but then you know, I feel like God There's there's so many variables. I can't make you people happy There's so many variables like Nylon like when you try out a symbol or a demo over the you know, YouTube or whatever if you're playing it I mean nylon tip wood tip. Yeah, just there's all these different things like how hard you're playing how soft you're playing and Another thing jumping around a little bit. You were just talking about the logo. So on your sheet here It says there's no way to clean a symbol without removing the logo. That's also true And brands don't want you to remove it because they like their logo now Neil Purt pierced he famously he liked to remove his logos and a lot of people don't like logos at all You know, yeah, a lot of drummers don't like them. It's just it's a necessary part of Branding, you know, yeah That's interesting. I've had I think I posted something online and There was like a debate between a few people on a video where they were like I someone was like I take off Every logo. I don't want to be a billboard for the brand I believe it was piste and it was like Another person answered and said I'm proud to have this symbol. I paid $350 or whatever 300 bucks. Hi hats. I want to have this on there And I think both are totally valid. They are they're both totally valid and again It's all personal preference and I try to take a Middle-of-the-road stance on all this stuff because at the end of the day my job is to make you happy, right? So it's not about what I want. It's about what you want So if somebody requests and I do have customers that don't they request their symbols to be made brand new with no logos And I will absolutely supply like that. I know that most companies won't but I will do that because yeah, that's crazy I want you to have a good experience. I want you to play what you love, you know, yeah Custom symbols are it's what you want Yeah, seriously, I feel like I would get I mean I feel like if you have it you'd be able to tell but like in a couple years If you have a bunch of symbols that have no logos or anything on I feel like I'd kind of get like wait Which one is this? Yeah, you know what? I mean, maybe I'm just an idiot, but no I mean some of them look pretty pretty similar. So yeah, you know, you can that easily get confused for sure Yeah, have you ever tried the ketchup stuff or do you have any experience? I have tried everything dude. Yeah Everything what was your experience? I and my experience is there's no idea way to clean symbols That's why I say so it all comes back around. Yeah, it all comes back I have literally gone through every product at Home Depot Lowe's like I've done Different acid solutions. I was like getting into chemistry at one point trying to figure this out There's just They symbols are so individual. It's super weird. They all react if even two of the same type of symbol will react differently to different stuff Hmm. I swear. There's like they're alive or something somehow. Yeah, they're it's weird Seriously, yeah, so okay. Yeah, but yeah, I have to have totally been through the whole thing and it was just Going crazy and then I eventually was like, you know what this just doesn't exist Yeah, just use dish soap. I remember buying a kid as a kid like one of those it was like a little gold Tin kind of jar that was like or not a fucker who yeah, I think that was yep It smelled like super petroleum, right? Yeah. Yeah, I'm way too young I was out like you remember sitting on my driveway kind of trying it a little bit and then like I Don't know. I think I was just I mean I was like tan or something and I was like I don't think I know what I'm doing and And then it dried up I think like years later. I went to reopen and it was just totally yeah, yeah It's up to that's fine. Yep. Yeah, I remember I had a that it That stuff took a lot of elbow grease man. You're the really laying to that stuff to get it to come Yeah, yeah, that's probably why I gave up too much work and like if you do that in a closed room like you're getting high Yeah That explains a lot. Yeah. Yeah, they should have pulled the package Warning warning don't let your 10 year old do this So yeah, well people out there clean your symbols However you want if you don't like them clean don't clean them if you like clean them clean them the way that you like it and stop Yelling at other people and telling them they're doing it wrong everybody likes different things and that's fine Yeah, that's a good rule in general quit yelling at other people. Yeah, just stop to stop with the fighting Yeah, so all right good myth there. How about yeah take it away on myth number five This is I got I'm gonna have to try to tone it down because this one I like I'm gonna get a little bit start raging out here Yeah, and you might have to cut me off because I might like fill the full rest of the time we have Myth five I need slash deserve an endorsement Okay. Yeah, give me your initial reaction to that statement, please. Well, my initial reaction is that endorsements I think on paper are different than what they actually are because I kind of got into that in the mid 2000s where there was like the custom boutique drum brand it was like, you know, I was teaching a bunch of people I was playing a band it was like I want an endorsement and I still ended up paying like $2,000 for a drum set. So I do think there's a little bit when I think of endorsement. I think of a And I know there's some famous Companies out there who are very heavy into and getting endorsements for people. Yeah, we're gonna talk about that And I think it's a little bit of a I don't want to say a scam because I'm sure for some people It's not but I think at that at that level where there's someone who's not a touring drummer where it's really out there and you're still paying 80% or whatever That's my reaction is I think I got duped a little bit when I was like, you know my early 20s Yeah, let me go ahead and clear that up. It's a scam. Yeah. Yeah You know, I mean, well, it's you could loosely define the terms scam It's Well, let me start at the beginning here So endorsements like going back to like think about sports, right? Like think about Michael Jordan, you know endorsements were for high-profile Super professional people who needed the best stuff and Had an enormous Enormous reach as far as people looking up to them and looking to them for what should I buy? Yeah, right that is so in the interest of a company That's the whole thing Visibility for your product, right? That's why they do it. Well, why else would you do it? You know as a maker you don't ever want to get less money for what you sell or make or give it away for free Yeah So that's where it kind of comes from and the same in the music industry like if you're a high-profile Touring drummer, which unfortunately like doesn't really exist anymore because nobody's soaring but And you have a need for all like I'm gonna be on tour in Europe And I don't know if I can get my gear over there But like okay, you're endorsed, you know endorsing company will hook you up with the distributor in that country and let you borrow So I'm like it's a relationship where you are Advertising for the company and they are supplying you with the equipment you need to do your job, you know Yeah, but people have completely lost sight of the fact that it is a 50-50 like give and take relationship Like an endorsement is supposed to benefit both parties. It's a partnership. It's a business partnership really, you know at its core now people think they just literally all the time will approach me and Just be like hey, I want endorsement and it's like well, who are you? Like who are you? Why would I do that? Yeah, you know like like you're opening line Better be like super solid Professional send me an email. Don't say yo, bro. Like start it, you know, yeah, like like you're applying for a job Yeah, cuz that's what it is. It's a job you work for me and I help you up. That's what it is. Yeah, you know, I mean I should say too that maybe Obviously you're on the end of it of the maker of the one being applied to For these I get it Where if you're listening to this and you've got endorsements or you're reaching out to people I Totally get it, but I can also see both sides where I'm like like I get the the draw of being like I want to be endorsed I think people I get it too. I know you get it, but obviously you're you're you're the one who's getting the emails where I'm sure it's a little bit like Really to the and I it would have been me reaching out to a company as an 18 year old who has no business being endorsed I would bring no benefit to this company But I just wanted to reach out because why the hell not and it feels like you're being Proactive in your drum career, you know, absolutely. No, you're absolutely right And I think a lot of people have taken to they they look at their heroes They look at Benny grab and he's got a list of products that he uses on every single post So they're like well if I want to be Benny grab I need to have that and that's why they think that and I don't knock people like I don't mean to come off too Hard people I'm just I always want to educate people to think about what you're asking for, you know Before you open your mouth before you send that email think about what you're doing first, you know from both sides and then Use that to guide your process But having an endorsement isn't necessarily going to raise your profiles and artists like it might a little bit But if you want to raise your profiles and artists Practice and work hard and guess what you will get endorsements. I promise you, you know They'll come to you they will come to you or if you know, you won't have any trouble getting things if you have Thousands of Instagram followers. Now you got some value if you have 300 What are you doing for me? Like oh, I got a bunch of gigs coming up Well, dude playing in a dive bar in low lighting where maybe one person there's a drummer Maybe isn't really like advertising at all. So like gigs don't even really count Unless you're at a festival and it's being filmed, you know, yeah, yeah, so Yeah, for real. I've heard of a Story and I can't remember where where it was a very famous drummer and I truly can't remember who it was I think they even just said it was a very famous drummer Who had no social media presence and he then was having trouble getting endorsements. Mm-hmm as opposed to like, you know Eric Moore or these mega awesome super great Drummers who have a big Instagram presence. It's more of a draw where I'm talking It was like a drummer from like a very big classic rock band. Yeah, where he just wasn't I mean, he was probably in his 50s He just wasn't into it and it had hurt him. So yeah for sure Because that's the really the new form of advertising. So yeah, you know, it's just It's a it's a more effective way if you invest in somebody that's got a big reach there Then you're doing you're making a smarter decision as a company. I think yeah, you know If you if if you really legitimately think that you have a need or it will benefit you or it's something that you want This is what you need to do. You need to make a list of all of your values Like what do you offer me and and you need to open with that? Yeah, not what you want. You need to say, hey, listen, I'm so-and-so. I have this many followers Here's a nice organized list with links and a bio in a picture And these are all the things I've accomplished and these are all the things that I can see doing for your company With that in mind, would you consider working with somebody like me? And then you're gonna have a much better experience Yeah, yeah, I mean it makes sense Completely like that's like anything in life. I mean and I do think that it's it's gotten to a point where like People with less followers like there's big companies who look at it and go okay. They're like Micro-influencers or whatever where you can reach people and you don't need to have a hundred thousand followers Maybe you believe in someone if they're if they're starting low. Yeah, I have people that don't have huge You know cut, you know followers, but they're people that I believe in very strongly because I see passion and talents and You know, they're they're doing music for the right reason, you know And I'm able to help them and we're able to help each other. That's that's huge Yeah, and I mean my last thought would be the the like you said before like From from everything I've seen and heard from people is like an endorsement and all that stuff You'll kind of know when you're at that point I need will a legitimate need will present itself and you will need to fill that need and then you'll go out and do it For sure. Yeah. Yeah, so but to make one point about that company you were talking about before The predatory endorsing thing so look we're in a highly competitive market now, right? And there's a lot of companies making symbols and people make it symbols. So Some companies are like, okay, how do we get customers? Well, you play on people's vanity, right? There's a lot of people out there that want endorsements. It makes them feel good They want to tag it and whatever so all that they do is they make a price listing where they inflate their price by 20% and then they give you an endorsing discount of 20% And you're endorsed and guess what if you go to their website, there's no mention of you There's no they're not supporting you at a clinic. There's no there's no relationship whatsoever. They literally just sold your customer Yeah, your customer Yeah, yeah, but I mean, it's a way to get customers and some companies they use that as their their business model Yeah, whatever No, and I only saying it wrong. I'm just saying that's what it is No, but I and I always like to say this because again, I've had it so many times where someone on the show Many people probably own Symbols from those companies which if you like the symbols if you enjoy them That should be the number one thing. Do you even like the product? Yeah, like you you should play stuff that you that inspires you You know, you know, I did this same thing and I will I won't mention the brand but I did the same thing with drumsticks where it was a maker of drumsticks and I was again, it was like I think I was like 18 and I was like, you know, I need to be doing stuff I need to be you know doing all this and I'm sending this stuff to companies and I'm like Again, I was teaching a lot and I was playing in bands around Cincinnati in bars where no one's seen it Yeah, so there really isn't a point especially sticks but and I bought the sticks emphasis on bought the sticks and I hated them Did not like them didn't they didn't feel good and I used them for like a week or two and then I started just kind of giving them out to students and And yeah, I learned a lesson that's kind of taught me that lesson of like, oh, I did the exact same thing Just yeah, the exact same thing. Yep. I when I was a very young drummer in a rock band I was like I should get some gear thing just to kind of I don't know become official And I went on got a drumstick thing with some smaller company and yeah, I got the sticks and I was like I don't even want to play these so Yeah, right bad earth Yeah, exactly. It was a bad feeling being like oh, man, can I not use the sticks that I like now? Yeah, I know. Yeah, exactly. That was like wait no one no one's looking at me. No one cares. Just go back to yeah That's like I went back to the first They're awesome. All right. Well, we're moving on. So anyways, yeah, okay. Thanks for letting me I feel like I just had an extra season Exercise great man. Okay got that out. All right. So myth number six This is another hot topic vintage symbols are better. This is the myth What do you think about that? I mean my thought would be There's crappy symbols that were made 40 years ago There's great symbols that were made 40 years ago same thing with right now But I do think sometimes maybe like you said metal is a Living thing in a way. Maybe it ages well over time. Maybe it's been played a lot. That is a factor There is a scientific process Mm-hmm. That's my thought is is it but there I've definitely had old symbols where I got them and I was like wow This is like I think I bought one at a pawn shop and it was like it's 20 bucks. I got to buy it Mm-hmm. It was awful. Yeah, so that's kind of the pervasive myth and Vintage symbols do have a vibe. They do sound different. They were made differently in the past They were made the way that I make symbols right now, which is the old-fashioned way symbols from the 1940s to 70s are generally the ones that are thinner and kind of good sounding vintage ones before that they were all like Marching symbols, so they were really heavy and small and not really stuff you would use for like a drum set You know, there's a lot of like old K's, but they're like 12 inches and like two, you know 10 pounds Yeah, because they were marching symbols and like what are you gonna do with that now? Yeah, really, but be 20 bronze be 20 bronze only Actually as it ages, it's always changing. You're combining remember it's 80% copper 20% tin You're making an alloy which almost like in the eyes of nature is like kind of abomination And immediately upon being alloyed These two metals are actually sort of trying to separate from each other And that is actually the cause of like all the changes that go on in the symbol I was I was getting pretty deep into metallurgy around the time we did our last podcast and I had read this thing from this metallurgical Scientists who had stated basically once they're combined. They are immediately beginning the inevitable stage of separation Now no idea how long that could be like 300,000 years I don't think anyone's ever seen an example of a piece of bronze that had ever like actually done that But if you think about like if you leave a piece of like iron or steel or something out Like it'll eventually just completely oxidize and dissolve and like turn into the earth again It's like trying to achieve homeostasis with the planet. So Bronze is is always like changing internally and over time it hardens and That hardness gives a very unique sound to it It also adds to the brittleness of the symbol too, which is another thing to consider older is more likely to crack Okay, that's a good. I mean, it's all good, but that's a very good like practical Maybe reason to not But not go older or like I shouldn't say not colder But I think people like are drawn to it because you hear all of this really great stuff But that's like a watch out, you know Just be careful. I mean if you're a light Jazz guy, like you're probably not gonna yeah run too much risk of breaking something But if you do any kind of bashing crashing crash riding and stuff like yeah, you know If something's 50 years old like there's a you might you know be a little bit more prone to It's when I get old symbols like that to modify I have to be very careful when I'm hammering them, you know, I try to do just a little little bit Because the risk is so much higher for cracking them If you were to in words put Like what the benefit of like like what's the is it maybe like just it's a vibe or something But like what's the benefit of using these old symbols over buying a brand new one, you know, yeah, well For a while it was because people like me didn't really exist So like you couldn't get like an old K unless you bought an old K, but now like I'm making them Kind of like pretty much the same way, you know, yeah You didn't really people didn't have access to that before so the only option was to buy vintage You know now there's like this new kind of craftsman revolution, which is super cool But the other part of it is and I do kind of buy into this a little bit Like I also play guitar like if you play an old guitar that's been around It kind of has like the I don't know the soul of each person that was with it Kind of sticks with it a little bit So like I do believe that if an instrument has spent a certain amount of time around like really talented or creative people They do like take in a little bit of that so that when you play it you get something you can't even really explain what words Kind of like hippie new agey, but you know, well, no, it's kind of like I don't want to call it a placebo But like there's like maybe like this thing that like you start to feel this like juju coming from it Totally you feel a connection to the past, you know Yeah, same thing with like those reclaimed wood tables that are like yeah from like driftwood That's been you know in the ocean for 4,000 years. It's just cool. You know, I don't know why it just is it is Because as people we only get like 80 years. So when something's been around for 4,000 years That's kind of like blows our minds, you know, yeah, so that's a good way to put it Now do you think the vintage K's are worth the money? That's I can't say like it's up to you if you hear one that knocks your socks off man You got the cash get it, you know, but yeah, I wouldn't like remortgage your house for For one unless it really meant that much to you, you know But make sure you hear it first because remember what I was saying earlier about hammering and factory style hand hammering a lot of that was done quickly and it's a crapshoot and You know the same thing with the old case some of them are magic and some of them are you know dog crap. So yeah, you know Yeah, that's the that's the general thing. I've heard about a lot of You know people some of them are forgeries too by the way, so I didn't interrupt you. No, I've heard that too But um, but yeah, black beauties are it's great. It's terrible. It's it's just It's a symbol to symbol or snare to snare. Totally. Totally. All right myth seven patina is good patina is bad We obviously talked about this a little bit I You I mean just off the top of my head doing what we've been doing where I'm kind of giving you my initial reaction I would say that if you like how that symbol sounds with patina on it, then it's good Totally good. If you don't then it's bad. Totally bad. You nailed it, dude Okay nailed it I mean so like the theme of today's like show is it's kind of a personal preference and like, you know Different strokes are different folks, man. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's that's an easy one All right, what's our next myth? Drilling holes at the end of cracks will stop the cracks. Do you remember this? I remember this from a kid Yeah, being a kid and yeah, that was the thing and yeah I did I did it on a Sabian AAX splash symbol and It started cracking beyond the the hole pretty quickly afterwards. That is not an effective way to stop a crack Yeah, I did it on a What was it? I did it on an a custom Super thin like 14 inch nerda knows like a 16 inch crash that cracked And it was just like what am I gonna do with it and I tried it and it didn't work Yeah, yeah, it'll stop it in the short term, but it won't last yeah Crack needs to be like you gotta like cut it out like it's cancer You gotta cut around it because there's cracking that you don't see like micro cracks so you need to create like Like a little diversion of energy away from that area where the structures a little bit compromised So really yeah, the best way to deal with a crack is to send it to a symbol maker Send it to Nicky Moon. Yeah, but and you don't do it in that sharp kind of like angle It's got to be rounded off. Yeah You don't want sharp angle because it's got all the energy is going to be directed to one sharp point And then that's gonna further Tell the symbol to crack more Yeah, that's I mean again for me. It's like that was like a thing where I'm like, oh, I want to try that You know what I mean? Yeah, it's just like it's just fun to mess with your symbols and so totally Yeah, yeah, the same thing and yeah, I was like not too bad. I wish you know wish it works, but Yeah, unfortunately, that's not gonna you know, I might stop them in the short term But it's not gonna be a slow long-term solution. No and it did not sound good. It's still just immediately lost That's the other thing. It's not gonna sound good that if you really remove that area You will you can still like retain some of the integrity of the symbol, you know, sometimes you can't even tell Yeah, but when I drilled it it was like it just lost its like body. It was just yeah It just it was almost hard to explain like what a symbol that's cracked sounds like I mean it just loses its How would you describe that the exactly what you said it loses its body like it goes from Vibrating to not vibrating that's really exactly that's why it does that the vibration is what creates the sound and that cracked area And now you have like two detention spots that are kind of rubbing up against each other And they're just fighting the symbols vibration. So they're not allowing it to happen. Hmm. Yeah, it's a shame shame alright, so Okay myth nine heavier symbols are always more durable My thought with this was like from having an old Z crash was like I thought it was almost the opposite where I Had him where they crack more because it's just it's less give it's just more like this like, you know, yep thick symbol absolutely you you You nailed it um the I Don't want to pick on zilligan. This isn't nothing against them. But the do you remember the Z costumes from the 80s? That's what you're just talking about. Yeah, I wasn't even born, but I had some As far as on the crack symbol market, that's the most like you'll see more of those than anything else And the reason for that was and by the way to to their credit They very quickly figured this out and came out with they Imagine that line and came out with a far superior version of it, which is really awesome. So cool. Yeah, they were they know what they're doing over there But those are they're extremely heavy first of all, okay And there's no like you said, there's no give theoretically a medium symbol would be the most durable because you need to have a balance between Thickness and flexibility. All right, which gets us into the I'm gonna use like a little analogy here In the material science world hardness versus toughness. They're two different things They kind of sound similar, but they're not hardness is the ability to withstand friction Whereas toughness is the ability to resist fracturing when force is applied All right So if I give you an example of like my anvil that I used to hammer against and anvil needs to be hard enough so that when you strike It it doesn't deform and change shape, but if it's too hard It's gonna be brittle When you strike something and you create energy it has to go somewhere like if you pushed me, right? And I didn't move you would move backwards. Yeah, or I would move But something has to happen, you know, sure So in the case of the anvil like if you if you get it to a hardness that's too great It'll just it'll crack, you know, so it's hard, but it's not tough anymore Yeah, so like a material like stainless steel is extremely tough. You can pound stainless steel It'll never crack But it'll just continue to dent and bend and deform and you can just keep manipulating it into other shapes and stuff so a Symbol you want both like it needs to be hard enough to sound good and have you know symbol qualities But it needs to be flexible enough to still not resist to be able to resist cracking being too brittle That's crazy. It's cool to think and just this is so it's kind of related, but you talking about the anvil I was listening to a Podcast talking about like the history of like blacksmiths and using an anvil and that whole just process of using the anvil And then it's kind of like that where I think maybe I don't know how yours is Grounded, but it was talking about how a lot of people will connect it to a log and then sink it into the ground Yeah, so the force goes out and it's just like Just cuz I guess that absorbs some of the some of the shock, right? Yeah, and that's that's also to protect your body. Yeah, I actually just upgraded mine to a bigger Dancer oak stomp. It's huge. It's so heavy and it's it's less fatiguing You know because you're creating energy and that some of that force is gonna come back And we could get into a hole. We'll do another episode Yeah, that stuff but like the way you grip your hammer like if you grip your drumsticks too tight You'll get an injury same thing with your hammer You got to keep like a loose grip and you got to let it bounce and let the momentum and let science do its thing You know, you're just kind of it or control it kind of like hitting a symbol obviously if you just like There's the right way to hit a symbol. Yes. Yeah Um, so it all ties back to what we're talking about. Yeah, 100% then that's another part of it, too Like symbols cracking like that's how you're playing it if you're playing it wrong like you're gonna crack it Even if it's a perfectly, you know well made whatever symbol, but so yeah a thick big heavy thing that doesn't flex at all The energy has to go somewhere and it's gonna force it to crack. Mm-hmm. Yeah Which sucks. I mean we've all hopefully I mean if you're listening this in your newer in your drum You know journey it sucks when you crack a symbol and it's like the worst because there's they're expensive They're really expensive and it's like you just kind of like you feel it I feel like you feel like when you're like rub, you know touch on the side of the symbol or something You feel like this little something's there. Mm-hmm, and then if a month later, it's like wow It's starting to like appear more and that's a super bummer Yeah, major bummer, but yeah, all right. That's a cool one Art myth 10 Burying symbols in the ground does doesn't do Anything I Have no experience with this. I've watched some YouTube videos on it, but when what's the deal with this? It's uh, okay It's there's a number of factors and that's why nobody can come up with a definitive answer or whatever Depends on the following things. Does the symbol have a protective coating on it? If so Nothing will likely happen if you bury it. It'll get dirty and you'll waste your time But that's pretty much it if you remove the protective coating You might get a reaction if you leave it in there for long enough, but you need to consider What's the climate like where you live? What's the pH of the soil that it's been buried in how high is the water table? Is it getting exposed to moisture? Is there algae like all kinds of stuff that all will tie into it so again, it's like if you do it in Arizona with a pie Steve versus if you do it in you know Brazil with a zilgin like two different things are gonna happen and there's no you know No one has studied this there hasn't been like a met, you know meta analysis on burying symbols yet. So no Geolocations and I know yeah, I think Sylvia Massey who's like, you know legendary engineer She did it and I think she had a lot of success But I've also watched videos. I think it was like David Rauf like our David are David are he's awesome Yeah, we're but it like he did it He was like this is not working. Yeah, like he did it over and over again and and But but again, it's fun. It's fun. And I've done it. I did it with a pie Steve I took but I removed the coating the protective coating. So now the bronze is exposed and that's a different That's be a bronze which reacts differently to the environment But um, I did get some kind of reaction, but I had left it for like three months You also have to like consider how long it's there So yeah, I mean and then at that point you're like you're probably using a symbol that's not your go-to everyday symbol That's that nice I feel like a lot of times people do it with like a B8 ride or something like a sit like a Sabian B8 ride Like it's just like a cheaper symbol where yeah, they just like, you know, maybe I can make it sound more expensive You know kind of thing. Yeah, we're gonna catch up and bury it Yeah, we're gonna catch them very you know look if you want to try it go for it But you could very well get that same effect that you're going that you want out of it other ways There's other ways to do it. You don't have to go through the pains of doing that Real quick. What are some of those ways? I could you know, I could modify it I could apply some kind of solution to it and that would sort of mimic that, you know Yeah, and some people you're you know experiment with using their own solutions and stuff and you know get out there Have fun if you're the kind of person that likes to do that kind of stuff find out yourself Which I'm not I mean I am but I'm not like I'd rather you do it. You're too busy doing podcasts, bro myth 11 is pretty topical to Right now when we're talking not really when this is gonna come out because it'll be if you know They're always about a month down the road An episode about Tony Williams just came out With Dave Goodman So the myth here is myth 11. This is our last myth on the sheet if I had Tony Williams ride symbol I would sound like Tony Williams. Mm-hmm. What do you think about that? I? Think you're not gonna sound like Tony Williams You're gonna sound like a guy playing Tony Williams ride symbol. Yeah Tony's technique was in his hands and his unbelievable ability to play the drums, you know, that man was a true musician He also had a really awesome symbol and those two things combined gave you the experience that that it gave you You know, you just got to consider all the factors the acoustics of the room It was recorded like everyone's the hot for the Nefertiti ride. That's the one everybody wants Well, it's like okay, what room are they in what mic were they using? What preamps did they have? You know, how high was the ceiling like there's all kinds of what kind of sticks, you know so yeah the The recording stuff is so like you can make something sound completely different You can EQ something completely different Obviously that was more of an analog time where it's a little less like a little bit less. Yeah 400 plugins on one track, but like I mean, we've all heard the like person who can't sing and then the person who can't sing with autotune Like yeah, okay. Yeah, you can do the same thing with you know symbols and even on that note I mean, that's a great example of like even the person who can sing I've never really worked on a session as an engineer where there isn't a little bit of pitch correction Yeah, you will on the percentage of like t-pain a hundred percent to like zero percent I mean, you know five percent just to bump them Little bit little sparkle. Yeah, and that being said is like even with Tony Williams ride You might bump a little of the high-end just to get a little more brightness Like 3k or whatever stick, you know cutting or 2k or whatever on an EQ, but like yeah Yeah, I don't know. I mean, yeah, so basically like the point we're driving at here It's just like if you want to sound like that first of all you should you should want to sound like yourself You know use him as an influence. Sure, you know soak it up listen to it practice and try to sound like him but develop your own sound and style but You know use your gear as like a tool to achieve Becoming who you are as opposed to just thinking I'm gonna get this gear so I can be this thing like that guy or whatever You know, that's all yeah, I Mean and I think in Dave's episode about Tony Williams and I've heard it also about I think in a Ringo episode where they Like try to symbol out and everyone was like I don't really like that I don't really like that that symbol and then people are like well that was Tony's symbol That's what I'm saying man Like I bet a lot of people if you heard it in you in your house in your room You might it's gonna sound way different. Yeah, you know, I've noticed that with my own stuff like I have this controlled little studio where I do all my testing and Sometimes when I take them out to do a clinic or something and I hear them. I'm like wow, they sound way different Yeah here to the point where I started testing my symbols in different rooms now in my house You know because really the room makes a huge difference. So oh my god, the room is huge I mean that's that's true with like audio engineering stuff. It's like the car test It's like put the CD in your car and drive around because it's gonna be different than or on like your you know, Amazon Echo or whatever Like yeah, it's the same as yeah Like if you're listening to it through an iPhone speaker or whatever like that's a whole other thing, you know Yeah, you're not really listening to it. Just do a part of it. So No, like I just wanted to bring up one thing super quick a bunch of people had asked me like hey Well, can you talk about the Zildjian alloy? secret and I'm not gonna do that Like I could I have a pretty good idea of like what's going on to people that I know things that I've learned Research this and that but look Zildjian has been around for hundreds of years Huge company company. I respect tremendously and they have protected this for a very long time And it is not my place as someone who in the scheme of things is someone of a newcomer To come out and be like a whistleblower like blowing the lid off of their thing Like that would not be cool on my part at all. Like that's not my place to do that. So I'm not I don't want to get into it So Yeah, I mean that's like when there's like a new magician who comes on the magic scene and is telling everyone the tricks You know to yeah to magic. Yeah. Yeah, I just feel like it would be super disrespectful for me No, and I agree. I agree. I think that's great. I think it's If you've put it together and can figure it out. I mean let the Some it's kind of cool to have the magic and the mystique it is like sometimes you don't want to see what's behind the curtain You know, exactly. It's better to just to just have that fantasy going on. So yeah, just yeah, just run with it Man, don't don't don't even don't think about it. No, just enjoy them last thing that's not on the list here and we talked about a little bit so someone's sending email. I was asking about vintage MIJ made in Japan Symbols Kind of like what's the deal with them? Are they good? Are they bad? What are your thoughts on that? I've seen different ones and I don't know. I'm not a huge expert on these particular ones But I think a lot of them were nickel silver or B8. I think they were all kind of manufactured by one company over there And then just distributed to different Japanese drum makers. I don't know if you remember this but back in the day This was actually before our time like Rogers and slinging on this stuff There was all these copy kits coming out of Japan and they were actually pretty good. Yeah, and they were coming with those symbols So this like whatever factory this was Was just you know cranking these things out. I've heard that some of them were coming in from Germany. I don't know if that's true So You know if it's if it sounds good for your purposes totally I Wouldn't spend a ton money on it You know unless you hear it first and you're and you're super comfortable that it's what you want But I wouldn't put most of those neck and neck with like with an old K or something It's not in the same. No stratosphere really. I don't think that's what they're meant for I think that's like like you said where like if it sounds good But I think it's a thing where like you'll get it for like 20 bucks or it'll be like free at like Totally and really do sound awesome some of them really do like you're like wow How was this 20 bucks and if you find one of those like totally grab it that's a score But be careful because they're super prone to breaking too. I could see that Yeah, so that was Thank you for suggesting that that little bonus So Ben and I think I'm thinking his last name's Reich. It says Ben Reich Reich was his email He asked about Japanese symbols Kind of as an episode but I figured with Nick We could just throw it into that because I think maybe down the road we'll do more because I love the MIJ stuff but Not sure if there's a full episode out of the symbols, but um I might be able to help you if you want to do it. I might be able to help you prepare for it So let me know cool All right now let's talk about I'd love to hear let's talk about what you've got going on. I would love to hear more about your you know What's been up with you in the last whatever six months or so since we did our last episode And then after that I'm gonna give a shout out to the people who suggested all these episodes or as much as I can Cuz there's there's a ton of them. It was kind of funny how you were like, you know We had a couple myths and I was like, let me put it online and then we got like we had time There was like 30 of them or something like that. So awesome. I'm really glad that there's such an interest, you know Yes, it's really nice. So What's up with what's up with Nicky Moon these days and Nicky Moon is a busy man these days good, which is great Yeah, it's great. I just have like a few things I wanted to talk about and I'll try to go through this as quickly as I can First thing is I've sort of changed the business model a little bit sort of updated the website the ordering system for how things work A lot of people come to me and they want to do like the the Roman emperor thing like, you know Bring me a pile and I'll sit there and play the main bring me another, you know, no, bring me another Like I do not have time to do that anymore. This doesn't make sense for the way I'm operating So my business now is every it's like a made-to-order thing You go on the website. There's Sound clips of many many many different things, right? But there's so many different variants for every series every model every size every thickness if you multiply the amount of variants They would be thousands. So like if you want a 17 inch 30 angel cognac crash There might not be a video for that exact thing But there'll be a video for like a symbol from that series, you know And then you kind of use your imagination to like what that is as a thin crash, you know, yeah kind of deal But I encourage everybody to just check out the website. I've made some changes. I'm still in the process changing it But you can literally go in there and build symbols now You can like choose the series learn about the series and then go in and put together like I want this size This profile, you know, this finish and and build a symbol and then I will I will make it for you and cool I do understand that that trust is a part of that It's not always easy for people to buy something they haven't heard But I feel like I've put enough out there people playing my stuff and you know that there's there's plenty to go on And I think the reputation is there and all that but you know, I do understand that angle too Yeah, and I mean like you said you're testing them all and you're hearing them You're not putting out like a clunker like here's now out of a thousand symbols that come out today Here's one that's not great like you're obviously testing them and love all your symbols under a super fine microscope Yeah, everything is highly scrutinized for as long as it takes for me to get what I want to get out of it for sure And that's not to say I'm not gonna make symbols and have them available from time to time like stuff That's pre-made. That's just gonna be separate. There's gonna be a separate part of the website We can go in and shop this stuff. That's already there But for the most part like that's the new way to you know to buy stuff That's cool. So I just wanted to go into that But I think it's a cool like when I was younger like I wanted that to exist and It didn't exist and that's what I wanted to bring to the market There's a lot There's already a lot of people that are making big piles of old gays and stuff and you know old cake copies and you know More power to them. That's awesome. I just wanted to bring something different to the table Yeah, and give people a different kind of option So yeah for sure the the ability to kind of like build it yourself It reminds me of like as a kid going on DW's website and there was like the DW kit builder And you could like I used to when I was supposed to be doing other things. I would be doing that Exactly, it's like how much would this cost? Oh, it's nine thousand dollars. Yeah, great. Yeah. No, that's awesome though Yeah, nothing on my website to cost nine thousand dollars. So don't worry. No Um But yeah, I just wanted to kind of share that because I know that's a bit of a change from how things were That's just been a product of like things growing and me not being able to just make piles of things for people to just come Choose from anymore, you know, there's yeah, they're simply not absolutely Second thing is we are now an official retailer of big fats and air products So you can get big fats and air products on the Nicki moon website, which I'm super excited about and we're bringing back Something we did last year at the beginning of COVID which was weekly specials every week We'd offer like a symbol for a huge discount, you know, awesome And we're bringing that back, but this time it's not going to be like standard series model stuff It's just going to be effects stuff that we're going to be focusing on and a lot of the specials are going to be pairing That symbol with the BF a big fat snare product So you'll be able to get like a cool effect symbol a big fat snare thing for like a super hot weekly deal And I do one per week. So if you see it and you like it get it because there's only gonna be one one a week like Like one symbol one thing per week Gotcha, and if you know sometimes maybe I'll do to you if it gets to that point, but yeah Like I mean one person can buy it a week or you're selling multiple. Wow, damn. Okay. Cool. Yeah, just for that That's not one thing. Yeah, sure What else launching a new I've had a lot of people ask me Over the past year like about doing more effectsy stuff So I have an apprentice now as part of being busier. I'm training one of my artists Jimmy And he's doing a great job and his sort of pet project to kind of get him going learning how to do mods and other stuff Is he's gonna be sort of taken over this blue collar boutique FX series blue collar boutique is sort of like my sub brand of Symbols I don't spend quite so much time on so I can bring the price point down to Something a little bit more accessible to people that you know can't afford the you know the 93 octane stuff There's still awesome handmade symbols that there's just a little bit less time goes into them So this is gonna be kind of a component of that. So it'll be the PCB FX And we did some prototyping I put some stuff on Instagram, you know a couple days ago So just be on the lookout for that. Yeah Some more partnership stuff. I had another project coming up in a couple of months I'm working with woodland percussion and big fat snare and creative percussion. We are putting out what's called the boutique starter pack So this is something geared towards like if you're maybe a younger dude or whoever really and you're playing like you're running the middle guitar center gear, right? And you kind of want to dip your toe into like the boutique II world and start getting some stuff We're offering a Nikki moon blue collar boutique ride symbol You'll have a choice of regular dry thin or medium and then there's gonna be a woodland percussion stave snare drum We get to choose like your wood and the color. There's gonna be a couple different options there. There'll be a big fat snare Probably a snare marine snare drum a product and it'll be a creative percussion stack So you're gonna get all of that cool boutique stuff and it's gonna be priced at like around 800 bucks ish Wow Yeah, it's a good deal. I love the like sick deal I love the combining of like these cool brands I'm all about it. I just think there's so many like so many cool doing stuff. Yeah, they all fit together In such a cool way. Yeah, I I've met so many awesome awesome people to you know through the drum world the drum industry world And yeah, I just love collabing like I think that's what music's all about You know, it's it's is it fun to play guitar in your bedroom alone or is it fun to play with a band? You know, it's way more fun to play with a band. Yeah, I like it together. I do and even beyond playing. It's that like I mean Social media love it or leave it like it's just talking to people like you and like meeting these people and like Ben from big fat snare drum Yeah, he's like we text multiple times a week just about random things and it's like It's all because we're putting ourselves out there and yeah and just doing it. So Man, that's awesome. Well, congrats on all that. Thank you. I got two more. I know we're running over a little bit I'm gonna bang them up. You're quick. You're fine. I just want to announce I got a couple new artists join the team this year. We got Kira. She's from the UK Chris Pitts from Texas. Cool. I'm super happy to have both of them both people that I sought out because of unique talents and great personalities great attitudes and I'm stoked to be working with them and we're gonna be doing more Cool content with them and all kinds of stuff coming up Yeah, and the very last thing I just wanted to drop is just about people getting in touch with me If I could just ask a lot of the people getting touched with me through DMs either through Instagram or Facebook or whatever It really helps me out enormously. If you can contact me at my email address info at nikimoon.com or just simply go to the website www.nikimoon.com and there's a contact me there's multiple places to contact me and that will again be rotted to my email and That allows everything to be itemized and people are in order and I can if I haven't read something yet I can leave it bold. So I need I know I need to go back and read it. It's becoming just impossible to manage the Incoming data, you know, and those social media messaging things are just they're kind of you know crappy In relation to like a good email Instagram doesn't let you search like words like an episode suggestion and I'm like, oh my god, like okay vintage Japanese I'm like, okay. I'm never gonna find this man. I've lost people's messages and I lose them a lot That's the that's the reason I'm bringing this up is sometimes and now I'll go back and I'm looking through and I'm like Oh my god, here's this dude that like we were in the middle of a conversation and like I didn't mean to drop off It's just like, you know, yeah, it's a lot easier. So if everybody would be on board with that. I'd be super super grateful Well, what is the email? It's info at nikimoon.com Yeah, yeah, cool. Yeah All good stuff. It's it's cool to see that you're progressing. I mean, you're obviously already doing great stuff But just since our last conversation how much it's like just the the collaborations and the new artists and all that stuff Nick has been kind enough per usual with a lot of the recent guests not every episode I can't promise that but a lot of them such as Nick are gonna hang out and do a patreon bonus episode So I think with Nick what we're gonna talk about is like if I were to come to him and want a symbol, how would I? most efficiently and Cleanly tell him what I want not like Symbol loud or I want hard-hitting, you know, I want metal like yeah Really like what's the best way to describe things maybe some, you know of the correct vernacular to Really get what's in your brain out to a symbol maker such as Nick so Such a cool topic, man It's a great great thing to talk about actually because that this is something. This is my daily life really. Yeah Yeah, and I'm sure there's all kinds of terms that that are in there so if you want to hear that if you're a patreon then it'll be on patreon.com slash drum history podcast and Thank you for subscribing and if you're not go ahead and get head to that link and you can pay two bucks a month up to as high as you want and Support the show and get cool stuff like that now as We wrap up. I'm gonna try and quickly do this And there's a lot of them. This might be boring if you're not If you're not if this isn't one of you But let me just run through the people who suggested episodes because I don't know I think it's cool to it's cool to hear your name on a podcast Oh, there is these are your you know user name on Instagram though So and I'm not gonna say what your suggestion was because that's gonna take forever, but Newbie newbie newbie. Thank you Wally barge Scarbo Scala Corpse some of these are some crazy names Plaza green's official snare geek. That's Nate. He's awesome Nicholas cut cotton neo Lawrence Colorado a AC Slater Nithi a bk Maxwell Shaff Jared stalker befigura Santi RT 94 Lilith 1976 Robert drumster Bobby 1612. There's a lot of these. Thanks for listening if you're still listening Olam off gel vegetus Vegeta's Gco keen Dino Caravello vitalizer drums. That's Vincent. Thanks Vincent Dennis RLRR Philip Aquina Stanley Abel draw HP heavy Villalobos are 23 David maha maho and go Jason Berthold Berthold. He's awesome. We've talked for a long time Britta Hebernia Grayson M. Carlos Carlos a getting close to the end here I've cut some names off Grayson M. Carlos again proof strange audio evidence mobile Don snare That's a good now. That's a heck of a list. Yeah, I know a bunch of those folks man I recognize some of those those peeps you it's cool again. It's the community So if you just listen through all that thanks a lot, that was a lot of names that let me tell you how it was fun Just watching you go through that. I enjoyed that very much. I was struggling there All right, so on that note then Nick and I are gonna wrap up here and we're gonna hop over to the patreon bonus episode But again Nick proud of you for doing everything you've been doing since we've talked since so very much last and and thank you For sharing your knowledge here. Thanks so much for having me. I love doing this So I really appreciate the opportunity to get out here in my mouth. Thanks, man If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning