 I'm here to talk about energy efficiency through the prism of technology policy and investment. But I want to start off with special thanks to five people who helped me put this together. And my great colleague, Steve Camillo, who's sitting there. And as John said, we jointly teach a graduate student seminar in the spring on energy efficiency policy, technology, and investment. So for anyone who may be interested and want to delve down a little bit deeper, this is what we do in addition to here in this course. So I'm going to be talking today about four items. The first is just giving everybody an update on the big picture on energy efficiency. The second is going to be going in a little bit deeper on the levers that are important in terms of technology policy and investment. And then I'm going to talk about five challenges that I think really have to be addressed if we're going to take energy efficiency to the next level. And then I'm going to conclude on an upbeat note on six developments that I think are really interesting that are going on. So this part, I've got a few slides just on the big picture. And let me start off by saying this is from the International Energy Agency. It is across all areas of efficiency. So it's picking up transportation, industry, agriculture, as well as buildings. And what it does is it's looking at what are the efficiency improvements in terms of energy savings globally from 2000 to 2016. And it is a good story. It basically concludes that we saved about 12% of the energy that we otherwise would have used if we didn't have our energy efficiency efforts in place. And this 12% is very significant. In fact, it concludes it's about what the entire European Union would use in a single year. So this is one of the messages. And my good colleague, Professor Sweeney, in his book very much brings this to the fore as well. That energy efficiency, even though we can't see it and oftentimes we're not aware of it, it is a major item. The next picture is just looking at it in terms of emissions. It's about the same amount, about 12.5% of avoided emissions in 2016, thanks to the efforts we've been taking since 2000. And that's about 4 trillion tons of avoided emissions. So it's a huge, huge area. You probably can't see it, but on the far right, that's basically breaking it down into the countries that are part of the IEA and countries that are the six developing countries and just to show that we see that it's about split between the two of them. When I was putting this together, I thought, well, what if somebody asked me, so where is California compared to, or where's the United States compared to other places around the world? So this is what I found. There probably are other sources and I want to say that I am not actually vouching for every single item in here. This is a report card, excuse me, that is put up by the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy. It's a very well-known group and it puts out just about every other year a scorecard looking across different countries and you may not be able to see this, but the orange are national efforts, the blue are buildings, the green is industry, and then the yellow is transportation. So just like what I saw in the prior slides where it's looking across all elements, but this one's adding in actually policies as well. And since we don't really have a national energy policy in the United States, they were very nice that they looked down in the United States at policies going on at the state level. What they concluded was, and they looked at energy efficiency both from adopted policies as well as implementation and results. So again, while there could be disagreement about how specific ratings go, I think they have it right of saying it's not just having a policy or having a program, it's what are the results. The number one country that they concluded was Germany and the United States is down here, we are number nine. But when I read the report, they actually said that where the United States really is the leader internationally is on appliance standards. That we now have at the federal level appliance standards and equipment standards that cover approximately 60 different pieces of equipment. So we have more coverage than anywhere else in the world. And what is interesting is that 40 of those standards were developed during President Obama's administration. So what it tells us is that you really can ramp up very quickly in this area to have 40 standards and policies issued is a huge amount. Now unfortunately the word is that with our new administration we're significantly slowing down. But we did put these in place and there's certainly going to then be taken up by other places in the country. And according to ACEEE, they said that now with these new standards they represent 90% of home energy use in the United States and 60% of commercial building uses. So this was a very important, very significant leap forward. This is my last slide on the big picture. It's really delving in now to the buildings which is what I'm going to talk about. And what we see is that on the buildings themselves and then on the construction industry looking both at energy consumption and at emissions this is a very significant sector that it comes out to be about 40% both in terms of energy usage and in terms of emissions globally. So buildings matter is my picture when we're thinking about energy and when we're thinking about emissions and climate. Now I'm going to turn to the second part of my talk which is the three levers which technology, policy and investment. And as John said, I've been involved in energy efficiency for a long time over 40 years. And if there's one thing that I have concluded it is that if you're going to be successful in energy efficiency you need to think about each of these areas. In some other things you could just say oh it's only technology let's just build a really good wind farm. But in the world of energy efficiency it's really thinking through how these three areas interact. And I want to give a shout out to my colleague Steve Camillo who really had me focus in on one way to think about the policy side is the carrots, the sticks and the sermons. So let me just go back to technology. I'm going to have a little bit on that but technology is both components, measures but also systems and now increasingly data is very important on the technology side. When we think about policy one important concept is that only government can actually implement policy. It can be done at the international level the Paris Accords is one great example. It can be done nationally, sub-nationally or locally but only government can actually make policy. However, you have private energies that are incredibly important on the implementation of the policy side. And as I said you can think about and I'll give some examples of there's the carrots which is when you have grants or you have loans or tax credits basically some money flowing the sticks are thou shalt when you have an appliance standard a building code, a requirement for a certain amount of energy efficiency and then the sermons are basically communication about information. And so that can be the energy guide that we see on many of our products. It can be energy star, it can be benchmarking but it's really all of these are what combines to make the policy world. And then the investment for again energy efficiency it's very important to think about both the public and the private. And in many areas with energy efficiency is actually the public money that gets things started. So why do we have all these levers? Market barriers that I could probably spend an entire hour on this so I'm not I'm just gonna quickly go through it but you basically have a market availability and I'll just take an example of a first cost bias which is if something a highly efficient product is $50 more than the less efficient product. Even though you may have even a label that tells you well over the course of using the more efficient product you're gonna save money because your electric bills are lower. There still is this bias that says well I don't know that I really wanna shell out that amount, that higher amount of money. And that is a very important barrier that we have product availability not everywhere is stocking the most efficient products. On structural, institutional, they're legion. One example that we have up here is construction building codes that the best practice internationally is that energy building codes should be updated every three years. And we actually have international codes that do that but they are generally then adopted and implemented at either the national level or at a state or provincial level or even at the local level. And we certainly don't see that regular updating happening everywhere. And so this is just a barrier that we see that even though we may have a good code in theory are we getting it adopted. On behavioral and salency just who really spends time thinking about energy much less energy efficiency. I'm not even gonna ask, when did you last think about how much insulation did you have in your home or your apartment? This just isn't an area that people think about, find frankly particularly sexy, poor information about electricity prices, equipment use, et cetera. So these are all our problems with energy efficiency and that gets back to why we have to think about making progress in this area because we have all of these levers. So technology we've got basically our big ones that we use with energy efficiency are the building envelope, thinking about insulation, thinking about windows, thinking about daylighting. We have our ventilation and air quality and space conditioning. Increasingly thinking about air conditioning, cooling the air is becoming very important in the world of energy efficiency. In preparation for this I was reading that in India the commonly used equipment for cooling air is an evaporative fan which is basically a fan with water. When you switch over to an air conditioner you're typically using about four times the amount of electricity than you would with the more primitive and frankly appliance that doesn't really cool you as well. So there's just an awful lot of work going on thinking about well if we have entire large regions of the world now switching to air conditioning how are we going to have a massive effort to really make that very efficient? And then we also have our lighting devices are very important but all of these are what we look at when we think about the technology side. On the investment side this is what we see is the good news is this again is from the International Energy Agency that they saw about a 9% increase in investment from 2015 to 2016. So the good news is that the investment side in energy efficiency is going up. And then they also looked at what's happening over in the building side. And you can see that quite a significant amount of money is being spent on building efficiency when we compare it to the industry and the transport. It's a little bit over half and I don't know if you can see this the slides will be available but it breaks out some of the areas in which we're seeing that investment. But when you look at overall how much money did we actually spend on buildings and construction they looked at about $4.6 trillion. And so we look at well about 134 billion was incremental. And so it's telling us that even though we're spending a lot of money on buildings we're not actually having the massive amounts of energy efficiency investments that we would like to have if we're going to be meeting many of our climate goals. So policy levers I'm just going to be real quickly to summarize them and give a couple of examples. These are the typical ones in energy efficiency that you see something called energy efficiency obligations or resource standards in the United States and those are similar to we have renewable portfolio standards. Well you may not have heard of it but we actually do have similar requirements in some places for energy efficiency. The more typical things that you may have heard about are appliance standards, building codes. All of these are the sticks, the mandates. Then you have incentives they can be both financial as well as something like an expedited permitting if you have an efficient building. And then this list at the bottom I added the top one but at the bottom comes from NREL and I really like that they put in research and development because we do need to keep getting in our new technologies and so I think of research and development this is actually both a carrot because you're getting money for it but it's also the sermon side of good R&D you want to have it really be promulgated and learned about which is sort of the information sermon side. But these are our basic policy, excuse me, policy tools for energy efficiency. They've been this way for many years and quite frankly I think that they will continue to be the top ones that we're using. The IEA puts out something interesting called the energy policy progress index which I'm actually not going to try and explain but I thought it was interesting that they actually are trying to look across energy policy and get an assessment of how effective is it. So this is their view from a period of 2000 to 2015 and it's in this report that they put out in 2017 on energy efficiency. There's a couple of conclusions that you can draw from this. The first thing is just looking at this. It's generally a good path that we're going on. We're getting more going in terms of energy efficiency policies. The second conclusion is this top part, this is China. So that when you think about globally what's happening with energy efficiency, it's a good idea to sort of have in the back of your mind China because it has become an international leader on this. They have taken very seriously promulgating building codes, appliance standards. They have this very well thought of approach where they went in first started with their thousand largest industries in China and really did major efforts on making those more efficient and now they have a program where they're looking at their 10,000 largest industries in California and the independent assessments that are being done of these efforts are saying they are successful. There's a lot more to be done that China started off with very inefficient equipment and buildings, et cetera, but they are now a leader in what's happening in the world of efficiency. The third thing that I would have you take away from this which is in the report, you can't see it from the slide is that they commented that we didn't see any significant policy improvement between 2015 and 2016. And the report raised it as an area of concern because you can see how much we have been growing globally. And so it's going to to me be very interesting to see what comes out in the next year. Are we really starting to see some stalling on policy development or was 2016 just a little bit of an anomaly? So this is an example of remember I had listed on policies, energy efficiency obligations. This is what's going on in Europe and it's actually a very good story that they've gone from five to 15 of their member states having these obligations. And this is now covering 58% of the EU final energy consumption. So very, very significant policy coverage that's going on in the EU. I did in case you're wondering Germany who is the number one that was rated and it doesn't have an obligation I inquired and I was told that due to political reasons when the negotiations were going on, Germany felt very strongly. They didn't want to have an obligation. But in turn what they did was that they launched a very large finance fund. And so that they actually are funding a great many projects and that's why they're coming out ahead. But this again is a good story that says with really focused efforts you can start to cover large areas on these obligations. I think it's also interesting to learn about and think about how the EU is approaching energy efficiency because they're very much consciously saying, you know what, we need a mixture of different approaches on energy efficiency. These obligations cover about a third of the projected savings. But they're using all these other tools, finance, taxes, including carbon taxes, some of the regulations, the standards for the other two thirds of the savings. And they're allowing the member countries basically to choose among all of these different approaches which ones they think will work best. And so we also have a bit of a testing ground to see among the different types of policy approaches that we can take which ones are really going to deliver the best results. But it's to me very interesting that we see finance and money as pretty significant of this understanding that because of the barriers we talked about, you don't get as much private investment as we would like. And so this is an area where having public funding available is very, very important. So this is another way of looking at where do we stand now with policy that's not quite so upbeat. This is looking at the man at building codes. And we have a mixture of what's going on in the world. The dark blue is where it is mandatory for what we call the entire sector which is basically both residential and commercial. But we have a whole host of projects. This color, which I think shows up as sort of beige is no known code at all. You can build any building you like for as inefficient as you want to make it. Then we have code and development. And then the yellow is voluntary or partial mandatory that maybe it's mandatory for residential but not for commercial or vice versa. And so this is actually not a good story because it tells us about two thirds in the buildings around the world right now are being built inefficiently. And building inefficient buildings does not make sense from any viewpoint. It is like literally throwing away money and adding to our carbon emissions because we have the technology. We know how to build buildings. Most building codes are not that stringent. They almost all have to use existing proven cost effective technologies. And so when you build an inefficient building all you're doing is causing the occupants or the owners to pay more in their electricity or natural gas usage. And you're also then having going out into our atmosphere greenhouse gas emissions. So if we have to do one area of focus in terms of where we're going with energy efficiency really honing in on how are we going to get more extensive comprehensive coverage of building codes I think is among the most important. So now I'm going to go to the third area of my talk today which is five challenges ahead. This is based upon an article that I wrote in 2015 and I think it's, I basically took some time to think about what are the challenges to get to the next level. And here's my list. Whoops. Dramatically increasing the magnitude of the savings diversifying the sources, measuring and ensuring persistence of savings integrating it within a greenhouse gas emission reduction framework and then understanding and valuing efficiency as part of an evolving grid. And I absolutely believe that we need to think about going forward energy efficiency within the context of all of these factors if we're really going to have it play the role that we think it can play. So I'm not going to go through all of those. Here's just an example. This came from the United Nations Environment Program and you may not be able to see it but what it's saying is this is a curve of looking at if we were to use the building sector to get to our under two centigrade goals out to I think that's 2050. And every single carbon study that I've ever seen has energy efficiency growing in a wedge which is sort of the small part is where we are now and they say but by 2050 energy efficiency has to be a major part of this and it's for a couple of reasons. One is that it then means we are spending less energy on our buildings themselves which frees us up to spend money on what may be more expensive aspects of other decarbonization. And it also means that we start getting those carbon reductions sooner rather than later. So what this does is it lays out sort of where we're going to be getting the emission reductions from basically looking at what we're using within our buildings themselves. How are we making switches to more efficient appliances? How are we dealing with the building shell? But all of these are what we need to do if we're going to really get on our climate goals. Here's another way that if you remember one of the challenges I said was diversifying our area of savings. This is US electricity use by low, by end use. And again, thanks to my colleague Steve Camillo if there's a question on what are these other energy uses beyond tanning beds I can let you know. But look here, here's lighting, residential 9% and over in the commercial I think that's 11%. Not that big but in the United States lighting has been our friend in terms of energy efficiency. It is by far where we've gotten the majority of our savings from because frankly light bulbs are not that expensive. They can be subsidized for not that much price. They're easy to install and they're very cost effective to go from an incandescent used to be to CFL and now it is to an LED. And so we've gotten tremendous amount of savings. I think in California for our utility program it's been on the order of 75% of our savings have come from this one area but we have also made advances in our standards. So in California since the beginning I think it was of last year you can't sell an incandescent light bulb in the state. You basically we're rapidly moving to LED light bulbs and we have the federal law that's gone into effect I believe January this year as well. So our good friend lighting is actually moved from let's have incentive programs to achieve lighting to we're just gonna make it a way of life that we're gonna have efficient lighting and that's what everybody's going to use. And so we have to develop programs and efforts that are going to be addressing these other areas which typically in terms of the barriers that we looked at they're more expensive to do they're more complicated to do people may not be aware of them because you can at least know what a light bulb is. And so this is one of the challenges that we have. This is as you recall I said challenge number five was how are we think of energy efficiency in our changing grid that up on top is a traditional view of energy efficiency it's the yellow which is you calculate what the savings are and you're just sort of assuming that they're going on throughout the day throughout the year. You may have some understanding of what the peak demand savings are but it's still fairly primitive how we thought of it. But below is some work that was done that looked at the hourly usage curve of a CFL and you can see and it makes sense we flick on our lights at different times during the day and there's definitely a different pattern of usage in the summer and in the winter. And so what we want to be doing is to think about for the different energy efficiency measures how are they used during the day? How are they used seasonally? And then how does that match against what our grid needs are as the grid is fluctuating more and more with renewables and then more and more at a granular level as we're bringing on solar PV and EVs and things like that. And this is a complete paradigm shift from how we have looked at energy efficiency in the past. But the good news is we have a lot of tools to get there I won't go through all of them but this really is true. Technology has been developing in the world of energy efficiency and in particular the move to install the smart meters and developing data analytics is hugely important for how we're going to be addressing these challenges. But we've also have much better understanding of behavioral interventions and how can we get people to change their usage in buildings as well as we have been developing some new policies I'll talk about and we have new investment tools that in pace it's a brand new concept that was developed which is basically you can do financing of clean energy on your property tax. In less than 10 years that has grown to a six billion dollar investment area. And that was just literally a policy idea that developed it's now flourished throughout the country and we're seeing this huge level of investment. So I'm going to end on an upbeat note that even though we had some sad stories about we aren't quite doing what we need to do or to be honest we need to do significantly more there's some really bright spots of what's going on in energy efficiency so I'm going to talk about three in the United States and then three elsewhere around the world. So this is example number one which turned into a new law, a new policy but it was brought about because of our new technology and then also now because of that we have new investment coming in. So let me explain fairly quickly. The green, this is a study that was done by one of the data analytic companies First Fuel and it was done with our local utility Pacific Gas and Electric. And what they did is they went into 200 commercial buildings in the PG&E service area and using data analytics with smart meter interval data every 15 minutes they looked at the usage of these buildings across what I think was an entire year. The green is the savings that were identified and there was independent validation done of this study. This is the retrofit savings. So this is typically what you look at when you think about a commercial building I'll go in and do a retrofit and maybe I'll change out the lighting maybe do something with the air conditioning, et cetera. You're basically going in and putting in more efficient equipment but what this analysis and study said is there's all of this which we call operational savings which is when you have a building over time even if it was commissioned and tuned up when it first started over time things get out of whack. You have your controls aren't quite where they need to be you may have lights that are left on over the weekend and so by analyzing this data and comparing it to basically hundreds and hundreds of other similar type buildings they were able to analyze this is the type of operational savings and each of these is a different building. I mean it was very specific and this convinced the California legislature we should start to value count go after not just the green but also the orange and it turned into a new law and it's really opened up some of the efforts we've got going on. Second one is remember I talked about with the grid so this is an example I think this is California but it certainly is typical or not typical we're also seeing it in New York and some of the other states which is you can identify through these new tools where the best potential is at a very granular level aggregating across buildings but very localized and so then you can think of it in terms of the local distribution line which may be starting to be getting loaded up because you've got solar PV coming onto that line maybe you have the EV coming in well where's the best place we could make investments in energy efficiency taking into account remember what I said about we can start to see what the load saving curve is and really say this is where we're going to pinpoint our investments so that we can delay or defer T and D upgrades. There's an excellent new report that's out by LBNL literally just two weeks ago called the time varying value of energy efficiency in Michigan if anybody wanted to look at this but I think this is one of the most important areas that we're going to be seeing. Example number three, building electrification e.g. for carbon, a.k.a. this is the third rail of politics in energy efficiency because what this is saying is that if we're really going to start thinking about energy efficiency as a tool with carbon emissions instead of just having our goals to reduce the usage of building in energy which we California many states have zero net energy buildings we want to start developing the tool called zero emission buildings or near zero emission where we're focusing on reducing the usage of anything in that building that is having a carbon footprint. So we have some very interesting developments going on literally right now in California. Again there was, I'm not touting them too much but Lawrence Berkeley National Lab just put out a very good study called electrification of buildings and industry where they concluded that the good news is we actually have good technology in this area to be switching from gas uses in buildings to electric uses but primarily heat pumps for water heaters and space heating and cooling there's been some major efforts going on in the Pacific Northwest and back east and so it's starting to look at how could we really take this on and we have two bills in the legislature that are going to be very controversial I can say. One is on policy that actually would establish for California our first zero emission building goals and then direct one of our agencies the California Energy Commission to develop a roadmap for how are we gonna get there for both new buildings and existing buildings it will be changed from its current language whether it survives we don't know but it's saying this is where our thinking's going and then remember we look at not just technology policy but investment there's a companion bill that would actually set up an incentive program provide some rebates and subsidies to further develop these new technologies and bring their costs down. So now I think I have time to get to the three international examples that I'm very excited about and this one what I learned about I'm really excited to be honest in January this year the European Union came out with their energy performance of buildings directive it did two things one is it put the entire European Union on this pathway to thinking about energy efficiency as how are we moving our buildings to zero emission buildings and basically every member state of the EU is going to have to submit a roadmap to how they're going to get there and that's going to be really changing internationally how we're thinking in this area but then they have one of the most interesting areas is the European Commission has to prepare a smart readiness indicator and this comes directly from the directive I don't think that anything has yet been issued but look what it says it ties building efficiency with the ability of the building to integrate flexibly talking about the grid and provide services to the energy system, persistence of EE performance and operations that in my challenges I listed persistence of savings is huge and then talking about operations what are California laws looking at and then also focus on building systems, sensors and controls this is the long-awaited IOT of buildings where they're really going to start looking at buildings as systems and think about very much on a holistic approach how are we going to be improving our buildings? Example number five takes us in a different area entirely and this is something that a few years ago India set up a national public ESCO ESCO is our energy service companies which basically will go in usually in larger commercial buildings but they can go into anywhere they'll do efficiency retrofits and then the cost of that is paid for from savings but what India did was that they set up an energy efficiency services limited a company within the government and that company is going after projects their largest goal and some of you may have heard of this is to replace 700 million incandescent light bulbs with LEDs in India there's a great website I've put it up here because I went on this morning you can click it on and you can literally see the dashboard where it's showing in every state in India what are the LEDs that are being given out and installed what are the carbon savings et cetera and they're doing pretty well it's 300 million so far and from the folks I know who have looked at this independently they say this is very credible no upfront costs and they're looking at going in other areas so my last one is from China that if you've heard of a reinventing fire that was put out by the Rocky Mountain Institute and Amory Lovens they put out one on China reinventing and it basically is looking at for China what are the steps that you would have to take in the building sector to get down to the type of climate and emission reductions that we need to get it's prefabricated buildings it's really looking at retrofits but then it's innovative design passive houses super efficient equipment and appliances and so it's going to be very interesting over the next few years given how strong China has been on some of its energy efficiency efforts will it really take this to heart and change dramatically how it's looking at building in the entire sector and I'll just close by saying way over here not to put too little emphasis on it but this is the part of where the savings are going to come from from basically decarbonizing the electricity system and so what this tells us as most studies tell us is yes we do need to get our renewables out there but unless we focus on our buildings and really make them as super efficient as we can and our appliances we're just not going to get to where we need to get with our climate goals so I'll just end with basics matter we've got a lot of great stuff going on in the future I know time's running out so I want to stop and have a few questions thank you very much Thanks Diane Thanks Diane that was great unlike Meryl Streep sometimes a happy ending or at least a projected happy ending any questions, students first wondering whether EOS and ERs also actively implement states and if so what are policy tools to reinforce our United States that was whether our energy efficiency obligation yes there's about there's a database called Desire D S I R E that has the map and when I looked at it last week we had about 20 states that are covered but one of our problems is that these are typically done by a state law and the state law actually has an ending date for the end of that obligation and so we're going to have a number of states this year next year where the legislature has to vote on extending or expanding it and that's going to become a political issue and one thing I could say about Diane again is if you're as good as Diane is at a big state like California all the other states want to talk to you and once that happens all the other countries want to talk to you are there any specific industries or organizations that you really see like champion championing this movement towards energy efficiency domestically Stanford University we have a pre-court institute a pre-court energy efficiency center and we have the pre-court institute for energy and I mean seriously there is definitely work being done here Lawrence Berkeley National Lab has one of the finest groups in the country National NREL our renewable energy lab outside of Denver is excellent and then the other areas are the ACEEE, they do research and issue reports I'm probably missing some others but those are what comes to mind I mean in terms of deployment like the first industries that are really just going to like take initiative on implementing as much of this as possible oh okay I'm sorry well lighting has gone great great guns I mean and you can think of it we do have a lot going on I think I said the number 302 billion dollars of energy efficiency investment those are being implemented by companies typically so you could pretty much look across every area and you do see companies very involved any more student questions let's do a couple back there and then come up to the front so you mentioned using energy efficiency investment to reduce the need for grid investment but as I understand it, don't utilities make their money by one obviously selling electricity but also being allowed to make a return on infrastructure investments so isn't there a disincentive for them to do? yes and I didn't put probably should have put up that policy it's something called decoupling we actually have developed a policy mechanism to deal with that and it basically decouples the utility revenues from what their sales are and again I think about 20 states now have adopted decoupling it was invented here in California and so that takes away the incentive to just go out and do it but we have a further policy mechanism that's very important which is that what you mentioned the rate of return that for those of you who don't know investor own utilities can build something goes into this fictitious rate base and then they can earn a profit on it so this is called a shareholder incentive mechanism which is if the utility achieves the energy efficiency goals that are set out and remember the energy efficiency is generally less expensive than the supply side they would have otherwise built then they can earn a rate of return on the efficiency investments that's equal to what you see on if they had done tnd or power supply we have one more orange jacket yeah I'm curious what sort of measurements or efforts are being undertaken to sort of catch up lowering communities get them up to speed with regard to energy efficiency it is a problem that I'm going to talk about the United States because it's sort of entirely different when you're in developing countries where you have vast numbers of people who have low income and there you're just looking at you know getting them cooking stoves that you know aren't using charcoal or the lighting so in the united states we have a it's set up that part of it's funded at federal level part of it's funded at the state level it is hugely underfunded and the course that Steve and I teach we had I actually a graduate of Stanford Isaac Sevier come who's now working at NRDC and he's focusing on low income energy efficiency and he just had astounding numbers on what we call energy burden which is for poor people they spend equivalently a whole lot more money on energy than if you are more if you are wealthier and the typical attribute or what we say for energy efficiency is 200 percent of the federal poverty level but in the united states that's $25,000 for a family of four which could you think about raising in this bay area you know a family of four on that amount of money and and so our problem is that you only start to be able to access the programs if you're below that level yet there are huge numbers of people that are still in dire poverty and so we do have programs there's weatherization there's lighting when I was a commissioner we actually set a goal that by 2020 everyone who's low income in california that qualifies for energy efficiency and wants to participate in the programs they will be provided that free of charge and I think we're on our way to getting there but it's a it's a major major problem. Sally Benson. That was nice of you to call on me. I wanted to give you a thought on financing energy efficiency improvement so you know beyond light bulbs you know really think about heating and cooling and you know some of the things that we have so much work to do and you know doubling or tripling the amount of money that goes into energy efficiency financing. So what are the challenges that we have to make specific ideas on what could be done to accelerate the finance going into that area? One I think the challenges are that we don't know that much in this area because energy efficiency is bifurcated that you're sort of in the world of either you're working on codes and standards and that's mandatory or you're in the world you're working on utility programs and you have sort of your lens of what can be done through that or maybe you're a private company and you're just trying to you know grow your company and you're running into these problems so one I think we actually need to understand better what finance works and what doesn't. We know something like Connecticut has a green bank that is supposed to be available and provide things at very low or no interest rates. I didn't have time to get into it but for me personally one of the things I'm interested in is we have a concept called white certificates which has now been used in France and Germany for a number of years. We have sort of somewhat similar with our organized markets capacity auctions where you can have energy efficiency bidding in and I'm just wondering you know if we could start to look at some of those tools to really be expanding how much money we could have available. Yeah, combining the last two, microfinance for poor people might be a good idea too. Alex, a couple more. I'm surprised not to see the fellow who actually is responsible for California's energy efficiency Art Rosenfeld. He's a physicist of course. I actually did have the Art Rosenfeld slide up there is very, was a very dear friend and I usually start off by a dedication. He's the guy who gave us 1832 to effectively have individual standards and flag for Canada at least in language. Art is the father of energy efficiency. Yeah, we all love that. But thanks for that. Let's go here, here and here. Water is put forth as being one of the major consumers of energy in both production, distribution, et cetera. Water to be nexus instead of shallow point of surprise that shows a separate category. Okay, did you guys all get together with what the items I could have added and I totally agree it was within the constraints of trying to squeeze everything in. But water energy nexus is hugely important and especially when we're thinking about building for the reducing the carbon emissions. This is where I'm hoping we're going to see much better integration of the water side within our energy efficiency area. Yeah, good. We'll have separate talks on that. I'm sure. Lucia, and then back up to John. So with the India model work in California, for example, I think QG&E provide the LEDs or heat pumps and then get paid back out of the savings consumers bill. Nothing is easy in California. I'm probably trying somewhere else. We actually now have our law that it's just illegal to sell incandescent. So we've sort of leaped over that particular technology. There have been efforts to think about setting up large scale financing in California. My bet would be there would be a lot of political opposition of trying to run an incandesco either through a utility or through the government. We like our private companies and our markets, et cetera. One concept that is a little bit like that, that again I didn't have time to put in here, is pay for performance. Which is basically you could have an entity that ran okay, we want to have X amount of energy efficiency delivered in the state by pick of date. And we're going to run some sort of an auction, a bidding program, and we're going to set up very rigorous M&V, but we're going to allow private companies to come in and deliver those savings. It starts to get complicated pretty soon on, but that would be what I would think not necessarily a government-run or utility-run company, but how could you bring in a lot more players who could compete to deliver savings. Last question, John. So by analogy with what's going on with the federal government and auto emissions standards. Are there similar things going on with energy efficiency, that is, can they get in the road or are they getting in the road? Is there inertia that's keeping things going at sort of that? That's, I'm glad we ended with that. We have an exemption in California for our appliance standards just as we do for the fuel standards, which is basically for 40 years we've been able to have more stringent appliance standards. Those are sort of test-driven, and then the federal government will come after, they may or may not, then adopt them nationally. I just spoke with folks in California about this a couple of weeks ago, and they said, so far we don't see things happening, but this is a perfect plug that we have here on campus on Thursday. 330 will send the announcement around Commissioner Andrew McAllister, who is the lead commissioner in California on all the codes and standards, and he is also the incoming president of the National Association of State Energy and has been working very closely with DOE on codes and standards. So he would absolutely have the last say. It'll be in Y2E2 somewhere, we'll publicize it, but he's coming specifically to meet with folks, hear what's going on and talk with people. On that positive note, let's thank Diane once again for an inspiring talk.