 This is St. Tech, Hawaii, Community Matters here. I'm Marsha Joyner and we are navigating the journey. Navigating the journey is dedicated to exploring the options and choices for the end of life care and to assist people to talk about their wishes. It's time to transform our culture so we shift from not talking about dying to talking about it. It's time to share the way we want to live at the end of our lives and it's time to communicate about the kind of care we want and don't want for ourselves. We believe that the place for this to begin is not in the intensive care unit but together we explore the various paths to life's ending. Together we can make these difficult conversations easier and together we can make sure that our own wishes and those of our loved ones are expressed and respected. So if you're ready we ask you navigate the journey. And today we have a very special guest with us on the phone is John Ratcliffe who has become the face of medical aid in dying and our co-host today is Scott Foster who has been with this issue for 20 years now. And so John is on the phone. John just completed what your 59th chemo session. Yes, my 59th. Good morning Marsha and Scott. Both of you good morning and thank you for all the hard work that you've done for decades now on this legislation and a lot of other very good social legislation as well. Yeah, I've had 59 three-day sessions of chemo so far. I go in for my 60th and another two weeks and we'll see what happens. We're just going to have to continue this. What exactly, what is it that, what kind of cancer do you have and what is it that the chemo is doing? Okay. I was diagnosed in June of 2014 with terminal colon cancer which had spread to my liver. Oh my. Which had metastasized into the liver and the colon inoperable because of where it was and it had already spread despite the fact by the way that I get colonoscopy is pretty irregular. I mean I had done that. This thing came on really fast and got terminal just like that. And they gave me six months to 24 months to live if I would, I mean these are just, you know, they give me six months if I didn't do anything and I would die within that period of time or roughly. And if, you know, so I'm stuck with taking chemo until it doesn't work anymore. And when it doesn't work anymore we'll take different chemo until that doesn't work anymore and then we'll try something else until that doesn't work anymore. But, you know, we will try to stay alive as long as we have a quality of life to live. And although I've slowed down a lot, I can't obviously be there today with you like I'd like to be or any place else. You know, it's going to get me eventually, it's not going to get me today. So we're doing good. Oh. I don't worry. Went with that. But there you go. When now, because you can't see us, we have a yellow light for you because that, oh yes, that has become our signature piece as you know. And we have a hearing on Friday with the Senate. Is that the full Senate? No, it's the Senate. Judiciary. Senate Judiciary. Just judiciary committee. And so what do you think is going to happen? Well, I can tell you what's going to happen. I think because of your hard work and the hard work of others over a long period of time, public opinion first shifted and then went into overdrive with intensity as people began to age. And when more people began to be, you know, in favor of this, they began to go along and it's just been a rough goal. But this year, it did pass a bill did pass the House. It's different than the bill which passed the Senate last year in some particulars. And when it went over to the Senate consumer protection and health committee, there was some question about whether or not it was going to be amended. And if it would have been amended, then of course it would have had to go to conference. Senator Baker in her wisdom decided that this bill ought to have the ability to go before the entire Senate and be heard and be voted. So she voted out of her committee. I think a vote was unanimous six to zero. There will be, there will be a hearing on Friday, but no testimony will be heard. They'll take your written testimony, but they've received so much testimony on this over such a long period of time. They know what everybody thinks pretty much. So they're just going to do decision making. And there are five people on that committee. I expect the vote to be four to one. It will then go to the Senate floor later this session for one final vote. And the vote last time they did this was 22 to three. I see the same people voting the same way 22 to three, except I doubt there will be any at this point. I don't think that there will be any voters who will vote with reservation. Well, now let's go back to the beginning here. You are the current face of this issue. You're the face that everybody sees. You're the one that's been interviewed in the newspaper and magazines and everywhere. Now, just for our audience, John and I go back way, way back. John was with us when we fought for the Martin Luther King holiday. And we have been on opposite sides on issues, mainly gambling. And we have, you know, but we somehow managed to come together when it counts. And so tell us a little bit about you. What did John, who is John? Why does a community know so much about you so that when we say John Matt Cliff, people say, oh, I remember him. I know him. Yeah, I've been around a long time. I've been active in the community for over 40 years. That's not as long as some. I think, oh, Scott, maybe you do more than maybe you're older than me. I don't know. But anyway, I came here in 1975 to become the executive director of the State Teachers Union HSTA, which I did for 13 years. I'm mostly known for that. People know me as the former head of the HSTA. Somehow that stuck with people. I was there for 13 years, but yeah, they still see me today and they go, oh, yeah, my mother knows you. And that that sort of thing. And then I was I was the associate director of the Professors Union for another 17 years. That's at the university. At the UHPA, University of Hawaii, the entire state, all the state professors. And I had quite a career there for 17 years was really wonderful. But also after I ran for Congress in 1988. For whatever reason, there were a lot of people who thought that I'd make a good advocate for them. So people began to call me up and ask me to lobby for them on certain issues. And, you know, because I had the kind of job that allowed it, and it didn't take a lot of time. I did that. So I did two things. I was working for the professors and I was also doing lobbying on some issues. And then I went out on my own and just after, of course, after I had the terminal illness thing, I pretty much had to cut back, cut out everything. No, I'm retired. Now you're retired. I am. So you're retired or the cancer retired, which is it? Cancer is not going to retire. Okay, good. They don't call the emperor of diseases for nothing. Yes. You know, this is a sneaky, ruthless, ever-persistent disease that is ultimately going to kill me. But it's not going to kill me now. That's an interesting... Every day is good now. Yeah, that's an interesting concept. So many people, when they talk about this bill, the other side that is, and they don't seem to understand the difference in when you ask for medical aid and dying, that the cancer has already, like you said, the emperor, has already claimed your body. So can you explain so ordinary people understand the difference in medical aid and dying and the emperor of diseases and what it does and what the difference is? It's a question of who's in control. And at the end of the day, I want to be in control of my life as long as I can be. And I mean, I've been through an awful lot of disease over my lifetime. I've had lots of things, polio, tuberculosis, all kinds of bad things happen to me. I know about hospitals and disease and all that sort of stuff. And I know about me, too. So I know that I'm strong enough, mentally capable enough to know what to do and when to do it. And when the pain gets so bad and life gets so bad that I need to end it, I will be able to end it and I won't be at the mercy of some other person who is going to say, there, there, you know, let me help you with this morphine. And I don't like morphine. And, you know, it's just that you're not in control when you simply don't have this kind of legislation. So it is for peace of mind more than it is anything else, Marcia and Scott and people. It's for the ability to know that you're taken care of and you're, you know, you can end your life. Well, we need to take a break. We need to take a break and we will be right back. Don't go away. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. I just walked by and I said, what's happening, guys? They told me they were making music. Ah, welcome to Hawaii. This is Prince Dykes, your host of The Prince of Investing. Coming to you guys each and every Tuesday at 11 a.m. Right here on Think Tech Hawaii. Don't forget to come by and check out some of the great information on stocks, investings, your money, all the other great stuff, and I'll be your host. It's going to talk to you. Oh, here we are. We're back. And Scott has been with this issue for, what, 20 years or about almost 20 years and trying to get it over the hump. Okay. To get away from the naysayers and the people that say, oh, we can't do that and you can't kill people and blah, blah, blah. But in that time, lots and lots of people call Scott and talk to him, people that are at the end and have no idea what to do next. And so, Scott, you want to tell us exactly what it is that these people are talking about? Is it the same thing that John is talking about, that issue? I think that John can certainly associate and maybe add some of his wisdom and experience to what our organization, the Hawaii Death with Dignity Society, does. We're best known for advocating for the bill. And I first created the organization in 2002, right after we lost by three votes in the Senate, sensing that we had just had to be better organized. And we really had quite a group then. Most of them have passed on themselves now. But what's taken place since and for the past 20 years is that because of my visibility and my name is on our website, HawaiiDeathWithDignitySociety.org. My phone number is there. I didn't set out to be the community liaison for this, but it's just turned out that way. And what happens frequently and several times a month is I will receive a phone call from someone either who personally or a member of their family has just received a terminal diagnosis. And of course, as John knows, that diagnosis changes everything. Perspective, what am I going to do today, tomorrow, the day after? And then the journey begins to try to establish one's end-of-life choices. I do usually explain I'm not a doctor, so I can't get into diagnoses and recommending for treatment are all of those very important things. But I do, of course, refer people to their doctors. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not have a personal position. People with lesser incomes and in financial circumstances, they don't have those things that many of us take for granted. I explain, of course, hospice, what hospice is, the fact that hospice exists, and the benefits of being involved early on in hospice, investigating hospice. And I also try to encourage people to fill out their end-of-life advance directives. So John, I don't know if you knew that about our organization, because when the legislature is not in session, that's what we're doing. I do know that, Scott, and I'm glad you brought it up, because I think you've been bearing a lot of the brunt of pressure on this for a very long period of time. You've been in a lot longer than I have. When I first got into it, I began to get those kind of calls, too, because with people like you or I, you know, we show up, all of a sudden people think we know something, and that we could probably help them. So they call us, right? I mean, I've had a number of calls from people that have just been so heart-rending and devastating that I can't even get over it. And I'm certainly not the people who are in pain and in trouble, but I mean, I've had those kind of cases several times. As recently as this week, I had a guy call me up this week, and it was just heart-rending. I can't do anything to help people in these situations where they've made other choices, and now they're alone. What do you do? Well, you know, that was the reason we started this program, navigating the journey, to talk about exactly that over the years, like Scott says, he's come to know that these are the conversations that people want to have, but who do they talk to? Yeah. So, you know, this guy, for example, this guy that I was just talking about right now, I don't want to go on and on about this for very much longer, but I believe that because of the anxiety he's had to face over the last couple of years, it's kind of driving him crazy. And then you got that problem to deal with, and if you lose your mental stability over this stuff, that's another problem. Now, you have stayed strong. The kind of stuff that we've been doing, of just you and I, Marsha and Scott, others have been doing, is just telling people it's okay, you know, and you're good, sure, you've been a tie, but, you know, we'll get through this, you know? It seems to me, John, that... That is very temporary. Yeah, it is. And we all have an end date, yeah, an expiration date we all have. It seems to me, John, that many of the, most of not all of these people are just looking for someone to listen and to talk with. And what little bit of wisdom and knowledge we can pass on through them, that's the way I sort of see my role. I tell them what I can, and then I just hear them out. And it seems... Well, it's very wise, it's very wise, because it's hard to hear. It is, it does wear on one. So, John, tell us, let's go back to the build. What it is and what it is not? Well, what it is not is... Let me go the other way first. What it is is that the legislation which would allow a mentally competent adult over the age of 21 with a terminal disease, meaning, will die within six months or less, according to the doctors and physicians who are in charge of the individual's case, whatever. And what it really is, is it allows a doctor to prescribe end-of-life medication and not be put in prison for it. That's what it does. What's the choice? So, you said not to put in prison. It doesn't allow teenagers to get a hold of it. It doesn't allow people who have Alzheimer's to get a hold of it, which is probably too bad. There's a number of things that... This bill is very, very, very restrictive. This is easily going to be the most restrictive death with dignity, medical aid, and dying bill in the country. Is that going to be a handicap all these restrictions? Sure. Oh, okay. Would it tend to slow you down when you look at all the restrictions? I can't do that, you know. I don't know. Now, you said about putting in jail for our audience, that Hawaii has an arcane law that says anyone that assists someone else to die, to take their own life, no matter how noble it is, they can be charged with manslaughter. So, if the doctor assists you with taking the medication, they can be charged with manslaughter. If your mother assists you with taking the medication, you can be charged with manslaughter. So, I think that maybe the next time what we need to do is get rid of that bill, that law, because it's been on the books forever, according to our former attorney general. This legislation doesn't let anybody off the hook maybe except me. I mean, this legislation has still worked for you. I mean, if neither of you are terminal, then I would guess that as the years go by, thank goodness now and the future, you'll have some data. As the years go by, people are going to want to amend this legislation, I believe, but not at all. And a bill like that, and legislation like we have on the other one about the manslaughter thing, this will take good, carves out an exception. And it does carve out an exception, or it does not, I'm sorry. It does, it carves out an exception when that's why. Oh, good. Not doctors, you're okay. Okay, that was... Other people try to get you to do something, that's something else. Well, you know, really, if somebody wants to get rid of grandma, they'll find a way. They don't need this bill. It is remarkable about this sort of stuff. To me, I've never been a victim of any, you know, I never thought of myself as a victim of any kind or somehow not able to compete with anybody. And, you know, this attitude that people have, that old people are somehow like babies, that they become children, that's just not true. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, I'm not going down that road of being a victim. No, just because I'm old doesn't mean I'm going to leave. I hate that stuff when people start giving me, oh, we have to take care of our kapuna. Are you talking about me here? No, I'm not, I'm kapuna, but I'm not going down that victim road. No, can't play that game. No, I'm, yes. So Friday, the bill will be heard again. And we think this is the final time before it goes to the full Senate. Is that what's going to happen? Yes, ma'am. That's what's going to happen. And no amendments at this point? No amendments. Any amendments with any amendments at this point would throw it into a conference committee. And we'd make lose. And be probably cause more, a lot more trouble than we need to have cause. This is the best way to go. I've instructed by email all of our supporters to simply say support the bill unamended and not get into the weeds on it. Right. Absolutely. Yeah, that was... Well, John, darling, I love you. Thank you, dear. Thank you for putting yourself out there to just stand up and let people see that there is someone a real face and this is not a theoretical case. Well, you both have done that before. You know, you have to put your... Somebody's got to be the object. You know, whatever the object is, somebody's got to do that so that, you know, if people want to throw some rocks at it... And they do. And if people want to say nice things, they've got people to, you know... It just all works out for people. You just have a nice object. Somebody's got to play the role. Scott, I know you've played it, you know, very well for a long time. And, Marcia, you have to. And this is, as they say, you know, it gave me an opportunity to do something and I hope it's going to work. It will. And thank you so much for being that object, taking a stand and allowing people to throw darts. So, thank you. Aloha. We'll see you Friday.