 Hey everybody today we're debating whether or not veganism devalues human life and we are starting right now with our omnivore team martin injustice thanks so much for being with us the floor is all yours. Hey there everyone glad to be here thank you very much james thank you to martin day debate and to the annoying vegans for uh doing this with us today it's going to be great uh thank you all so martin my teammate for uh making the choice to do this thing with me i as we agreed martin i'm going to jump in here my name is jessus walker i am a missionary farmer father of three home educator husband um and generally the vegans worst nightmare i have a farm with uh 60 milk goats 100 sheep three horses so i use all kinds of every form of animal exploitation known to man i am vehemently and radically uh opposed to veganism as an ideology and i have a little statement here that i'll read and try to give those reasons for that my reasons for affirming that veganism devalues human life and is in fact a noxious and pernicious philosophy are myriad however for the sake of time and convenience i have organized my main objections into four basic categories they are moral practical philosophical or logical and personal first moral the biblical worldview provides us with a framework in which to view questions of morality when we abandon this framework we end up not only supporting positions that are emotionally driven inconsistent and logically unsupportable but are harmful to human well-being and even threaten our existence i am not against veganism as a diet choice or even as a protest against the abuses of animals of animals in factory farms but i am strongly even radically against veganism as a moral position humans are unique extending moral considerations which are unique to humans by including in the moral cohort non-human animals on the logical foundation that they share some specific traits with us does nothing by way of of ennobling them but does great harm to the dignity of humans humans are unique because we're made in the image of god humans were set over nature to subdue that is to harness it for our use and to care for it that is to improve upon it by abusing animals or driving species into extinction into extinction by ending by eroding top soils or poisoning ground water we not only demonstrate a lack of care for the earth and her non-human inhabitants but we also preach heresy through our actions professing to be the image of god we destroy what god called good however on the other hand by mislabeling the killing of animals for food murder we also devalue human life and dignity by making humans have equal value with animals how many chickens is one human life worth how many dogs how many cats my opponents will undoubtedly rebuff they do not claim humans or animals to have equal value per se i hope to demonstrate that they actually do equate humans with animals arguing for veganism from the basis from the basis of animal rights or promoting veganism as the new abolitionist movement is a case in point they would have us believe that the fight the free animals from their abuse as a prime human food source is equatable to the fight for freeing slaves some will point out that certain early abolitionists were also animals rights activists again in air quotes in fact they misread history by reading into the record their own modern humanist biases will move before sort of the great champions of the abolitionist cause also fought for laws guaranteeing the humane treatment of animals but not because these animals had rights but because as i laid out earlier mistreating the creation is a dishonor to the creator and thus belittles the dignity of the image of god the early abolitionists support sought to free the slaves because they too were human they sought to guarantee the humane treatment of animals as a reminder for humans to act in a human way extending imaginary rights to animals devalues the very concept of rights and is the dishonor to the memory of the great men and women who fought to extend those rights to all humans as well as devaluing and chipping the suffer suffering of the human that humans underwent when those rights were denied my second category is practical modern far farming is an unsustainable is unsustainable largely because of the bifurcation of animal and plant husbandry the modern the modern drive for a fully chemically based farming practices is not only destroying groundwater and eroding topsoil but is driving us to a completely unsustainable form of food production last ten thousand years of human existence ever since the agrarian revolution animals and animal and plant husbandry together have been the basis for all human thriving and for sustainable practices of agriculture this will have to be something that we return to in the future and not something that we move away from when vegans advocate for an entirely plant based diet they are also advocating for the destruction of nature they also do this based on what is called a weird western educated industrialized rich and democratic perspective otherwise known as white western european because they uh excuse me i'm sorry i lost my place because they have a diet that is that is allowed to them due to mechanized industrialized farming practices which are not available to most of the rest of the world inconsistency this is my third point vegans have yet to demonstrate that the burden of of the the moral burden applies to people who buy animal products the example that i like to to show here is if you were to back in the 1830s again with with the example of slavery if you were to say that someone who bought a cotton shirt was 100 percent uh at fault or or was responsible for the propagation of slavery um you'd have to show that the promotion of that the buying of the cotton shirt was was absolutely inherently connected to slavery we would know that you can totally produce cotton slavery therefore even though the majority of shirts were produced at that time with slavery it still doesn't follow that cotton shirt procuration is necessarily evil this is a point that we'll have to revisit um and then the final point i actually had my first whole big section written out and the rest of them ad-libbing so sorry about it this is coming off a little bit a little bit itchy uh is personal when i moved to my current farm five years ago from the far north of Siberia down to the south of Siberia i was bitten in the very early uh first spring of the first year by four different ticks and i somehow was so lucky as to attract three different diseases tick-borne diseases limes meningitis and encephalitis the results of these of these tick bites were absolutely devastating to my health i spent almost three years completely on my back 16 hours a day 18 hours a day i had to sleep i was had the shakes i was vomiting even from small stress or small work um small amounts of stress or work until i finally found a diet that helped cure my disease the diet was the carnivore diet um i didn't jump on it because it was a fad but because other survivors of limes disease had promoted it to me or had advocated it to me and so i decided to check it out after six months of eating nothing but hamburgers actually mostly goat and sheep burgers because that's the kind of farmer i am um i completely got rid of all of the limes and encephalitis symptoms which had been haunting me for um for three years i've been able to regain my health and my life and i'm glad to say that this is due to my good friends the animals that gave their lives to help me regain my health so this is my fourth reason is personal um i also see that people like me who live in um less privileged parts of the world like Siberia Russia or all of Southeast Asia that's just below the border here um do not have the privilege as Western people do to even have this idea of a full vegan diet um they live a more natural dietary life like our ancestors have for the last at least 2000 years with both mixed animal and plant diets as we were intended to have so those are my four things martin if i want to kick it over to you and uh you can bring up thanks justice um i'm i'm just gonna put this beautiful dog on you so that the vegans don't get angry at me because i'm probably gonna offend them so James just fixed that so that they can see me the little doggy um okay what i want to say is i think the veganism can be dangerous if you take it to the extremes um if you take it to extreme then uh you would care so much about animals that you would kill yourself because that's the least amount of pain you can give animals um because everything uh gives animals pain even vegan food foods causes massive amounts of suffering and pain to animals um so they say that if you rebuke a wise man they will love you so hopefully the vegans will love me awfully after this debate me and justice um so what i also want to say how many minutes do i have still left like uh james you're still there uh it's about three minutes it's about three minutes about three minutes okay okay okay i think um if you if you show a person enough videos of animals suffering then they would uh i think join vegans the same way you can brainwash a guy person into um what if you watch enough people suffering you show the person how much people suffer and how many times they cry and how many people kill themselves um so then that person would also think it's like evil to bring a child into this world that it's like child abuse to bring a child into this world so i think veganism is also like to that extreme i think luckily most vegans are not super extreme uh obsessed with animal suffering um now english is not my first language so africans is actually my first language so hopefully i don't say something wrong and um so the other point i wanted to make that uh just existing already causes animal suffering and i don't agree that animals are worth uh one human being like one animal is worth one human being i also don't agree that killing an animal is murder i don't think that follows logically um i think humans are like much more valuable than animals many times more valuable like i would kill many lions to protect anna and brian many many so i don't think they are like worth one bug or one chicken um and thus i i don't agree that uh veganism uh increases human health or i think it decreases um human value um so that's that's what i want to say and i i give the rest of my time to um the vegans you got to thank you very much from our omnivore team and want to let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics and we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from vegan omnivore black white gay straight you name it folks we're glad you're here and we also want to let you know our guests are linked in the description we really do appreciate our guests so we want to encourage you to attack the argument not the person and so with that anna and brian thanks for being with us the floor is all yours thank you james thank you to justice and martin for uh challenging us to this debate and having us here today to kick off the debate again um i mean our response to the debate proposition is fairly simple this will be pretty short uh veganism is most currently defined as simply a way of life that seeks to exclude all animal exploitation and cruelty towards animals as far as what is possible and practicable an older definition of veganism is simply the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals um and we were honestly surprised to be challenged to this debate with this particular debate proposition given that veganism does not concern itself with the valuing or devaluing of humans in any way if you just look at the word value merriam-webster defines the word value in its verb form as to consider or rate highly or to rate or scale in usefulness importance or general worth so by devaluing we assume our interlocutors to mean that would be to consider or rate humans poorly or to consider humans unuseful unimportant or worthless uh but simply standing up for the rights of cows pigs and chickens for example is it's not inherent that one would have to devalue homosapiens to do that just as when someone stands up for the rights of women for example it is not entailed that one would have to devalue men uh veganism by definition is a non-human animal rights movement its focus is on the exploitation of non-human living sentient beings for mere taste pleasure it is the belief that for all of the same reasons that we believe that our fellow human beings deserve not to be exploited our fellow non-human earthlings also deserve not to be exploited right and um for those unfamiliar veganism stands firmly against speciesism which is simply discrimination based on species and it it's really no different than racism sexism homophobia transphobia or any other type of discrimination based on morally irrelevant factors just as treating someone differently because they have different amounts of melanin in their skin it's equally wrong to treat someone differently because they have feathers instead of hair or hooves instead of feet in all of the ways that matter ethically like the ability to feel joy to feel pain the ability to suffer sentient animals and humans are very much alike veganism in no way devalues human life or the human experience on the contrary veganism empowers and encourages our fellow humans to live in alignment with our own values rather than blindly accept the indoctrinated societal hypocrisy of speciesism and that's that's it you gotta thank you very much to our vegan team and also folks want to let you know we are absolutely thrilled for this upcoming juicy debate at the bottom right of your screen folks you don't want to miss this one Lance from the serfs and JF will be debating socialism versus capitalism this upcoming Wednesday so be sure to hit that subscribe button so you don't miss out on that epic debate it's going to be a blast so with that we're going to jump into the open conversation thanks to our guests who once again folks are linked in the description and with that the floor is all yours okay can I go first sure I want to ask Anna and Brian how how how many animals is James worth like I want to know James's life how many animals is he worth I I don't know that that can really be answered that would be like saying how many other humans is James life worth one easy so you would kill one person to save James if that person killed tried to kill James yes but I'm talking about I'm talking about say James is drowning and there's a lot of animals on the other side you can only save one side which would you save how many animals before you start saving the animals instead of James that's not the situation that we're faced with when we go to the grocery store and buy meat it's it's kind of moot it's like you're you're creating a false dichotomy the choice isn't do I save James or do I say how it's do I just go pay to kill this not a false dichotomy because but but but it's not a false dichotomy because the veganist position in general on for instance experimentation with animals for medical research is that we shouldn't experiment with animals for medical research but that is a direct save the animals or save the person issue it it's not a false dichotomy it's a thought experiment that has actually played out in everyday life there are many things we do to animals that are horrible and we hope to move away from those things just like we've moved away from horse drawn carriages in some parts of the world to cars or we've you know we we've done away with pagers and and we have cell phones now you know like it's we hope to evolve past that point and we know that many medical research companies many schools including who used to force children to dissect fetal pigs and frogs for example are now moving to software or other modes of research so I mean there are there is still room for evolution in that area we are aware that many of our modern medicine medical achievements have been because of animal research because that's all we had that's all we knew but you know we we want to move away from that I mean that's where the words possible and practicable come into effect in the definition of veganism you know as Martin was saying if you take veganism to its extreme you would just end up taking your own life so that you cause zero harm that's not veganism because that's not possible or I mean it's possible it's not practicable it's not a practicable message to be spreading obviously simply by existing you're going to cause some harm veganism is about reducing that harm as best as you can as far as what's possible and practicable and for the majority of people especially people living in western countries who buy their food at a grocery store or go to restaurants they're totally able to just move their right hand a little bit to the right and grab the oat milk instead of the cow milk they're capable of doing that it's possible it's practical they can do it so that's an animal murder it's killing an animal murder in your opinion well by definition it's murder murder has many okay should they go to jail for killing an animal a lot of people actually well animal abuse in the US is now felony yeah it is illegal to like abuse and kill a dog certain animals that's a thing you know okay so people should go to jail for killing animals I think that right now if you were to implement a law that says if you kill a pig and eat the pig you go to jail I don't think people would agree to that law I don't think it would make it into the legal system I don't think it's an effective way to try to force people to change their behavior through law what we're trying to do is get people to change their hearts and their minds about the behaviors that they're engaging in and as our hearts and minds and our opinions change our laws will reflect the opinions of the society but a the word murder does have many definitions one definition being to wantonly slay or to wantonly kill wantonly just means intentionally so to intentionally kill is a definition is one definition of murder so by definition yes killing an animal to eat the animal is murder okay if you are on an island and you have to stay alive you have to kill animals to stay alive would you do that no but I'm asking I'm asking how much are you worth like I would say you're worth thousands of animals because you can stay alive on that island as long as you want you can kill as many animals as you want we're not in an on an island we're not rarely are people in a position of of being stuck on an island and having to that's actually a reality show you know we we create those situations but most people are dealing with the decision of what to pick out at the grocery store I mean you're you're baking the answer into the question itself here I just the only reason I'm asking this is I want to realize how much you worth Martin is a human Martin yeah just real just real quick to interject again to bring this back from a thought experiment down to something real I was stranded on an island called Lyme's disease and it was a very real island and it I was on it for three three plus years and I couldn't get up out of my bed for 16 to 18 hours a day and anytime I tried to do any kind of physical work I was shaking and vomiting and and having all kinds of other symptoms I tried all kinds of different various kinds of medicines and the only answer for me was six months of animal protein and that is not a thought experiment of if you're on an island that is my life I was on that island um and I did get off via you know eating animals so this is not something that's again Martin's bringing up our point is that most people uh a sorry I was just saying our point is that most people don't uh have that situation so you're using a fringe situation to justify the norm the norm is every day people go to mcdonald's or they go to the grocery store or they go wherever to a restaurant and they buy animal products that were factory farmed that's the norm now if you're telling me that you tried everything you consulted with plant-based physicians you consulted with non-plant-based physicians you tried various medications you tried this and that and the only possible way somehow was that eating nothing but red meat like a carnivore like a lion that was the only possible like in a universe where that's the only possible way to fix your health issue that I'm sure you then I'm sure you did everything that you could and that's again possible impracticable but we're not talking about people that we're in your condition we're talking about average shoppers just like you know people bring up like what about the that's that's not what we're talking about and again I'm who can make that choice and again I'm and again I'm coming back to that this is not just a fringe case uh the according to the CDC in the United States alone over 30 000 people are infected with Lyme's disease every year and carnivore diet has been demonstrated again we don't have a you know control group studies to show this but anecdotally my own life experience and a lot of people who I didn't know who I've reached out to who also have Lyme's disease shows that a three to six month carnivore diet will relieve you not only of symptoms but of the disease altogether this is 30 000 cases a year so in the I don't know how long you guys have been vegan five six seven years there's anywhere between 150 to 210 000 people um in the only the time that you guys you know have been promoting veganism who have a disease that has been demonstrated to be cured by the use of animal products and again you know the the question that I'm here is that in previous debates I've you know heard you guys advocate for a moral position on veganism is this is just a harm reduction we can talk about that but as far as a moral position we don't eat people or kill people because it's you know practicable and that's why the the loose use of the term murder is is devaluing to human life um we kill animals we work we murder people and that's and and that's by definition killing an animal and demonstrating is murder it's just it's just the definition by definition because there were in in the English in the English language like justice language I'll give you another like 10 seconds to wrap up and then we got to kick it over just to hear from Anna and Ryan as well absolutely Anna and I did not mean to interrupt but I just wanted to finish this thing but about the murder but in the English language like in a lot of ancient languages unlike for instance in Russian we have two different words for a reason murder means the killing of one human by another human that is its basic definition and that's what defines it from killing all right let's give a few minutes go ahead Anna and Brian well I wanted we wanted to touch on your initial point about the 30 000 people who are diagnosed with Lyme disease every year that's in the U.S. right in the U.S. okay I mean there's only three so 30 000 there's 320 or 350 million people in the United States 30 000 is like less than 1% like 0.0 per year so we're not right so that's not a common thing that's not a normal thing that that's a fringe example not saying that it's not valid it's any less important we're just saying that as as it would the norm the majority would be what we would consider a norm but for those 30 000 people would you say that they were doing something wrong by by treating their disease through a carnivore diet it's like we said I mean if you're if you've exhausted every single other plant-based method that you can think of and the only possible thing that works for you is this then that is what it is it's the same you're basically doing the same thing as Martin which is like you're baking the answer into the question which is if you had no other choice but to harm this animal to survive would you do it it's like well yes you've just baked it into the question I have no other choice I mean yeah but the difference is is that if you were putting me into a lifeboat scenario where the only other choice I had was to sacrifice my own life or to murder another human being I would say I'll I'll willingly die for that other human and that's the difference between murder and killing and that's the difference between the leaving animals in their proper position on the value of scale and when you don't do that it devalues human life what's the proper position what what I mean do you I okay so moving on to that because I think you're you did touch on the biblical aspect and the moral framework animals proper position is is what to be to be less than in your in your less animals have less value than humans that's just that is a according to me in my worldview yes of course and even according to you because again like like what I said with a lifeboat scenario you're not going to give me I mean because you guys are are decent human beings you're not going to give me a situation in a lifeboat scenario where like oh it's okay to murder people it's just well it's just as practical at least I hope you wouldn't but in the scenario with animals you're willing to do that but you kind of talk both sides out of both sides of your mouth in that oh no humans are animals we wouldn't want to harm them we wouldn't want to cause them any harm or use them as food because that would be a murder and that's what I'm saying is that by by having that fuzziness of terms is is devaluing to human life it is it is not because we we simply advocate for the unnecessary killing of animals I mean against it I advocate against it yeah I didn't say against against we advocate against the unnecessary killing of animals murder what have you you're using scenarios where it's needed to justify situations where it's need less right most people here in this neighborhood in the city and in many parts of the world the the the choices that they make three times a day as to like what to put on their plates or who to put on their plates is a choice that they can make a choice that they like they can they can choose plant-based or they can choose a victim I mean animals by nature any animal in the wild fights for their life that's just the biological necessity of survival is is to survive so extend that to all all species no animal wants to die we are forcing them to die for personal whatever taste pleasure or or imagined necessity so I mean that's that's all we're saying but the vast vast majority of the population of the planet earth you know more than 50% don't eat animal protein for simple taste pleasure it's part of necessity necessary part of their diet so what you're saying is is that your position is no longer a moral position but simply a very tentative harm reduction position for the inhabitants of the golden billion it's it's the same I mean we can just move it over into the human context we have no need to kill human beings on a daily basis right but if a human being we're trying to kill you I would imagine if you had no other choice you might kill that person before they get a chance to kill you that doesn't mean you can just go killing human beings day to day because in these fringe examples it's a matter of life and death you're bringing up life and death and fringe examples to justify non life and death and non fringe day to day life 50% of the planet isn't a fridge example 50% of the planet you can have consumes meat because they how do you define where's that number coming from because because 50% of the planet still live in rural contexts in non industrialized countries and mixed animal and plant husbandry is the foundation for all their basic dietary needs this is a just a simple reality when you try to I mean I don't like to know where the farmer yeah because as a well you can look at the urbanization rates on the planet we're just just barely tipping 50% I come from a country where most of the country is rural and it's always been until the westernized you know fast food stuff started to appear it was mostly plant-based that's what that's what's affordable to grow I mean I still have cousins who say that going to buy meat in the city is very expensive they they never do it because they're going they're going don't get me wrong and when I talk about animal protein I'm not talking about hamburgers or steak that of course is a a visage of you know big you know high-range Texas Australia that's not the way normal people eat but having a chicken who lays you eggs having a goat who gives you milk having a sheep who gives you a couple lambs a year that you use very very sparingly soups to feed your children make sure they get the right amount of protein that they need is is not the same thing as a hamburger in McDonald's and that is the experience of a large percentage of the population of the earth that's outside of the golden billion outside of those who live in Europe and the United States and the few other non-European centric you know industrialized highly industrialized countries and and so for instance you know the villages that surround me here in Russia almost everyone in the village has a mixed animal and plant-based you know subsistence farm that is necessary for their survival almost all of them have chickens all of them have goats or sheep cows this is a normal part of the human condition and it's normal because raising a 100 plant-based diet by the sweat of your brow is almost impossible and it's it's not only impossible it's impracticable for soil erosion for the depletion of ground water for you know the chemical poisoning of the earth and this is something that Western people are going to have to fess up to if if you don't want to run out of you know topsoil in the next 20 years right just on that because I know you brought up environment like animal agriculture is responsible for about 80 to 90 percent of water consumption in the US I mean growing and then growing the feed for that livestock it's over it's almost 60 percent of water that is used for growing feed for livestock that could be used for humans speaking of devaluing humans you know we could be using that land to feed humans not to feed animals to then feed humans because that's I mean the the environmental impact that that is having I mean they tell us here in California oh to when every single year when we have a drought take shorter showers don't water your gardens all while along the I-5 you have miles and miles and miles of factory farms where these cows are consuming gallons hundreds of thousands of gallons every single year of water yeah I I am in no in no way uh in any case or in any shape here to defend the practices of factory farming as practiced in the west like that is absolutely you're not you're not finding a friend of them in me the problem that's what we need that's what people the demand for for animal products is such that there is no other way to fulfill that demand if not through factory farming the demand is what it's it's actually it's actually it's actually not true the switch from the mixed animal and plant-based production of the human diet in the United States in particular specifically the United States that happened in the 1960s due to the McGovern lobby and the change from small farms to the the get get bigger get out syndrome that happened in the 1960s the the big switch happened largely due to the government subsidies it had nothing to do with the demand there was no great demand for the local milkman to go out of business but when we started subsidizing massive corn production it drove down the price of corn which made containment and factory farming the the the big uh what are they called the the feedlots possible and it wasn't the demand for hamburgers it was the the subsidization of corn specifically that makes that possible so this is not this is again you're putting the onus on the consumer when the onus is not on the con should not be on the consumer you're you're confusing cause of the fact here when it goes from that and again like i'm again i'm not i'm here not i'm not here to defend factory farming the bifurcation or the the the splitting of of animal husbandry and plant husbandry in the modern western food production system is is an abomination like it is a huge problem i'm not i'm not but but i'm what i'm saying is that the the position the vegans say is oh look at the the sins of factory farming and they're myriad lots of sins and so we should just get rid of animal food all together that doesn't follow because to to stop soil erosion to use less water we need to bring those systems back together because they are symbiotic and they always have been i mean you're so you're advocating for few for more farmers to farm smaller farms rather than the factory farms the problem with that is as you were saying earlier like like some people don't want to be farmers for a living like people want to go to the grocery store and just buy their meat and cheese for cheap and when you were talking about subsidies i thought you were going to talk about the government the billions spent on meat and dairy subsidies which also artificially lowers the price of meat and dairy which then creates this idea that meat and dairy are cheap and as anna said the demand is absolutely and that's the only way to fulfill that demand and as a dairy farmer i totally agree just to be sure that listen justice the dairy substance stop for a second just to be sure that brian were you maybe there's a lag on your side that is so sorry my uh being so candid but were you guys were you done with your point brian just wanted to be sure just before we thank you james i mean we're pretty much done with the point the point was just that demand for these products is what drives their production and so 99 percent of all animal foods in the united states are factory farmed and when you tell the average consumer when you go to the grocery store and you buy a gallon of milk guaranteed guaranteed there was a baby cow that died and a mother cow that died just so you could have this milk that was intended for the baby cow would you maybe consider changing your buying habits if people can't understand that their demand is what causes that to happen i mean that that's that's what i don't understand about your argument you're saying that the consumers have no responsibility for buying a product even when they know where the product comes from i think there is responsibility on the consumer side go justice thanks for your patience the and yeah james and i was just i'd get a little bit heated here i was just interjecting with with uh you know any vegans that i i agree with them like kill the subsidies for milk sure absolutely kill the subsidies for beef like uh food should be more expensive across the board like that is an absolute thing we'd all be healthier and better served if food is more expensive without question like but as far as the consumers go and and everything it's again you artificially decrease the price of food and then you blame the consumer for consuming things that are artificially cheaper like that doesn't follow again the people bear responsibility who artificially lower the cost of food um also another thing is again going back to my the little example that i tried to put in about the cotton shirt like cotton shirts are not are not immoral just because they're cotton shirts yes you know if you were in 1830 the very the big chance that your cotton shirt was made using slave uh labor was pretty high but it doesn't mean that cotton shirts in any case in all the world are immoral like it just means that we should get rid of slavery not we should get rid of cotton shirts and the same thing here is we should get rid of farm for factory farming we should get rid of the the amazing abuses that happen in the factory farming context we should get back to more mixed animal plant husbandry style farms that are modern and no they would not require everyone to be a farmer that's not that's not the requirement there i think but again sorry i wanted to jump in there and say i think that example is not a great comparison because the cotton shirt is an inanimate object made out of a non-sentient plant so the product is a plant-based product the way that it was produced in the 1800s was via slave labor we fast forward to today a hamburger is made from a victim a living sentient being who was killed in order to make this product and yes this victim was also probably abused and tortured and mistreated throughout his very short life and then murdered at the age of one or two uh for a hamburger that someone doesn't need they just like the taste of it so you're comparing a non-sentient plant-based product to a sentient animal product it's not a great comparison the reason i bring up that comparison is because i'm trying to demonstrate the difference between a practical consideration of trying to advance um kind of humane treatment of of slaves or humane treatment of animals and the position that i think you're taking which is a moral position and again like you've already demonstrated in this conversation you don't necessarily believe that eating animals is immoral um we do want to say that again so but uh as like i said we're still living on a planet we're around 50 of the population of the planet not of the west not of your weird context western educated industrialized um and you know democratic uh you know that the rich in democratic not not that context the context of the majority of the world are you know still the the the large majority of the world is not what you're saying that's an option a large portion of people who live in third world countries eat plant-based by necessity because animal products are so expensive but like plant-based diets are pretty abundant in many countries and they're almost they're almost they're almost they're outside of strict you know strict Buddhists they're almost non-existent in non-western countries um you'll you'll be hard press to find a native diet that is strictly plant-based hard press why couldn't you have a diet that's plant-based if you lived in a rural area why can't you eat vegetables and fruit and grains and legumes and all these other foods nuts and seeds like why do you have to choose the animal product because outside of it because outside of a highly industrialized why does it need to be industrialized how hard i mean we're just because it doesn't need to be a process vegan product it's just how how how how hard is raising you know uh the necessary two two and a half thousand calories per day necessary for you know a human to live multiplied by 365 it's a lot of work like i've done it like we we grow we raise all of our food like 90 some percent of our food we raise on the farm 50 percent of that is animal but products 50 percent of that is um vegetable based and the time that i spend on the the overall time that we spend on producing food the vegetable products are overwhelmingly the amount of time that we spend like and if you but you yourself said that you don't need to farm and most people don't want to farm most people don't want to be their own farmers so most people will be buying foods from farmers they won't be farming at themselves it won't be like this huge undertaking for them they're just going to be buying potatoes and rice and bean and so if you had more farms like mine for instance or like polyphase farm farms by Joel saladin the united states or permaculture farms like jay off lotton the australian you know god of permaculture um then you're what you'll see is even in the context of you know even in a weird context in the western industrialized educated rich and democratic country you'll have the farms that can actually be sustainable both economically and from a natural standpoint are farms that will be both that will be mixed they'll be animal plant-based farms because that's how the cycle of nature works and and it allows for you to spend less time produce more calories but also to maintain a balance and this is another thing this is the impracticability of veganism if you want to go 100% vegan you have you have to go if you want to go 100% vegan you have to go for chemical-based farming which is destructive that's not okay but you're talking about impractical when here you are i mean proposing an idea like how do we even that that's what that documentary eating animals proposed too is that we return to the old ways of farming which is how how would we even get how would we even do that with the with the population that yeah well i mean very practical i mean keeping in mind that people don't want to be small-scale farmers yeah they just want to go buy cheese meat and cheese it's very it's very practical like for instance um me and the former families that live in my farm we produce enough food um for our our little collective to work and we also produce enough food for another 40 families so yeah you wouldn't have the uh you wouldn't have the percentage of farmers to non-farmers that we have today but it's not like every other person has to be a farmer what went out of 40 people and the way that you the way you get there is simply by reducing subsidies you reduce corn subsidies to begin with and then you reduce um say what how do we reduce subsidies how do we reduce subsidies we try to educate people not on a fanciful idea that veganism is going to change the world but an idea that we stop pumping money into the depletion of the aquifer in Kansas and the erosion of topsoil in Wyoming um and Nebraska and start paying for what we actually for what we actually eat the thing is you know just based on the activism that we tend to do it is very difficult to convince people to do something that is so out of their realm of concreteness like which is why veganism is so empowering because we are literally telling people you can make a difference simply by what you eat but if we tell people about the the water the erosion in this state in this state like there's no there's no direct can most people don't have that that uh interest that ability to connect with something that is so distant from their their immediate realm their immediate reality in life and the you know as I was saying the power is in the hands of the consumer so if you tell someone hey we got to get rid of these government subsidies I don't know what people think they can do about that but if you tell someone hey next time you go to buy some creamer for your coffee try the oat creamer instead it tastes the same that's something someone can do so eventually the government's not going to like subsidies are not going to make sense anymore why would they why would you over print farmers are going to start wasting you know product uh they're going to that's why we advocate for veganism because as the demand falls farmers are not going to find the need to raise as many animals or produce as much milk because it's just gonna all go to waste yeah and the the main destruction to nature that's happening for instance in the context again in the united states is due to corn and so you have evidence for that on a chemical basis you have evidence for that yeah I I don't have it right here the majority of the district of the united states is being caused by the crops of corn you're saying corn is destroying the United States who are we feeding the corn when we talk about when we when we talk about the ecology when we talk about soil erosion and the depletion of the aquifers then yes we're talking about corn and why are we growing so much too many things why are we growing so much corn and soy and wheat why are we the reason why we're growing so much corn and soil and wheat is because back in the 1960s we started to subsidize corn because it was unprofitable to grow it due to the massive amount of the water that it needed to take and that lower price of corn due to subsidies human beings are consuming a large amount of corn one sec just hear just hear the the rest of that sentence from uh justice yeah human beings are actually consuming a large amount of corn but the low price of corn is what pushed the few blocks to begin with it's not it's not the other way around and so you say I mean and I do understand that the the draw of veganism as an empowering thing like I understand that's that it the poll that it has on that but what I say is what's the what's the end the end is a sustainable agriculture that will not destroy the planet and that won't devalue human life and that has to be mixed animal and vegetable production just that's the way it is in our in in our country or we go down the route of the chemical based agriculture where you have you know a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico half the size of Texas like that's not what we want and so when you advocate for 100 animal based products that's what you're advocating for and what I'm saying is there are like let's let's educate people on on mixed agriculture and something that's actually sustainable that's number one number two like Joel Saladin always says shake the hand that feeds you right find local source food start from so start supporting those people who are in your territory in your area who are producing food like that's something that we can do that's very concrete I'll give you a chance to respond Anna and Brian but then I also after that Martin if you are still there and uh willing I'm waiting I'm waiting yeah I mean I went up okay very very anecdotally as someone who has tried to find corn free chicken feed it's pretty difficult because a lot of chicken feed is filled with corn a lot of animal feed is filled with corn that was my point we're growing these fields and fields and fields of corn and soy and wheat to feed animals to kill the animals to eat the animals that's vegans are not vegans are not eating corn on the cob all the time they have these spurts yeah we're having a competition of crowing going on but I mean if I could I would I would like to bring it back to the actual debate challenge the actual debate challenge the justice challenged us with which is the idea that animals should be treated with respect somehow devalues human beings I would like to bring it back around to the debate proposition if we could all right Martin hit him okay um hit him so I think veganism still devalues human life so I want to know is it evil for a human to eat honey because I know you don't eat honey so is it evil evil for a human to eat honey yes I mean honey honey for bees exploitation so when you don't need to is it evil let me see if I can grab somebody sorry say that again is it evil um I mean I don't know if it's evil if you have the choice not to exploit honey bees and you choose to do it anyway I would say that's unethical no so it's evil so it's evil in your opinion okay I didn't say it was evil I said it was okay so bad it's bad yes it's morally bad okay so when does it become evil I mean why does it need to be evil in order for it to be killing an animal evil is killing an animal evil yeah do you need to kill the animal for food I I want to eat some food I kill an animal is that evil no I don't need to well then why would you kill the evil no I'm asking is it evil I think needlessly killing a living sentient being is wrong yeah and that is yes it needless right you could buy something else but you're choosing to buy the animal product okay so God says everything that loves and moves about will be food for you just as I gave you the green plants I now give you everything so is God evil for allowing us to eat animals what so you're saying you eat animals because God told you to eat animals God gives us the right to eat animals and it's not evil so I'm asking is God evil for allowing humans to eat animals and what's your what's your evidence for God I mean but everyone gets there's lots of evidence for massive amounts of it can you provide us with hold on everyone that quote wrong first of all and I grew up Catholic so I know Genesis 129 I give you every seed-bearing plant that is upon all the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit they shall be yours for food yeah and if you just read on if you just read on if you just read on then it says go ahead and finish on I'll give you a chance to and then we'll come back to Martin okay go yeah I mean I just think in order to claim that you're performing an act and it's it's morally correct because God allows you to do that then you would need to prove God's existence yeah that can be a debate as well but I just want to say let's assume God is there is God assume God exists and tells us we can eat animals that's you're providing an argument with no evidence so we can dismiss your argument without evidence okay Jesus existed he ate animals is evil for eating animals I don't know that Jesus ever ate animals all I have is a book that was written by not Jesus and not God to go off of yeah it's documented that he ate animals I don't know what Jesus did in his everyday life I haven't talked to the man I didn't know there was a book written about him by other people so we have to go off of so say Jesus existed and he ate your and you're providing arguments with no evidence and thus they will be dismissed without evidence okay let's turn it back how much is a human state spots worth how much is it worth how much is a human what taste buds a human state but say say vegan food tastes like poop but it doesn't yeah but say I'm trying to trying to figure out how much you put the value on humans like if you view humans taste buds as nothing compete then you would say yes eat the it's a moral obligation to eat poop and not kill an animal yes you're weighing taste pleasure over another human over another living beings existence so I would say another living being sentient existence is more important than your taste buds yeah okay so so our taste buds is not worth that I think our taste buds is worth much more I think we are worth much more than many animals I think we are made in the image of God and I think a vegans make makes the image of God into a chicken equal to a chicken or something what does that mean it's God made God made animals and God create I mean like if you're talking about God again we don't have proof or evidence but say I can give you lots of evidence for God well you haven't yet but honest point is that God created humans and animals and you're saying that God created humans in his image what is the image of God what is the image of God we are able to create just like him we are able to program animals just like him we can take away the pain we're able to create just like him you know we we presumptuous to think that we can have power over animals like God like what I mean that oh he can take our life without being murder just like we can take an animal's life without it being murder there's no murder in that for forcefully killing an animal is murder I mean I don't agree with that it doesn't matter you can program them to with it Martin because it's a definition of a word so you can disagree with definitions and we know that people colloquially use murder to mean human beings but by definition it does include animals whether you like that or whether you accept it or believe it or not it's just a fact and I mean you're saying that God created human beings you have no evidence for God you said Jesus have lots of evidence for God I say I have lots of evidence for God okay so you have what's your evidence for God what we have to do is we have to turn it back into the veganism debate because uh Martin to be fair you had mentioned that you have evidence but then it's like we haven't really talked about it and if we're not going to do yeah but then it's gonna turn into then it's gonna turn into a different debate yeah but you're bringing up an argument about the devaluing of human life using a being that we don't know exists or not that that's not great evidence for the debate proposition itself so how does veganism devalue human life in your opinion I think it uh makes a human worth a chicken it is a human to a chicken because so so how much more valuable is a human than a chicken I don't but again we don't have to make that decision on it like which chicken in which human that's such a big that chicken next to you like are we talking about Adolf Hitler versus our chicken Antonio are you talking about like two random beings one is a chicken one is a human when in life are we ever gonna have to make this choice either kill this human or kill this chicken that's not a choice we have to make in everyday life yeah but I'm I'm using uh thought processes to figure out how much you value human life because this process and creating false dichotomies that don't exist in consumers everyday life let's let's hear we'll give you a few minutes martin we'll give you a few minutes to try and make your case like maybe give us something like a almost like a syllogism like a kind of a more the broad structure of the argument that you have it will give you just a couple of minutes to spell that out justice can go first and then I'll go again I've talked too much no just again no just to get interject just just to get interjecting to what martin says and again kind of just getting a little bit pushed back um to to what our interlocutors are saying is that again like making the choice between an animal and a human is not an isolated thought experiment we do it every single day with experimentation on animals for medical purposes this is not an isolated thing and so if we're take the veganism position to you know humans and animals are equally valuable or that we should extend the moral cohort to animals as we do to people then yeah you are devaluing human life but then I'll kick it back to martin and maybe you can like James asked formulate your your thought a little bit more if I may quickly respond to what justice just said we're once again you're using you're saying some human beings in an everyday setting work in research labs where they have to decide what animal experiments to perform on animals in order to legalize drugs or medication or do animal testing that sort of thing so once again you are using a fringe example and then somehow that moves over to so it's okay if everyone just goes to mcdonald's every day and buys hamburgers because these researchers in this one lab or in every lab across the world need to make decisions then needless decisions are somehow justified well that's why practice possible and practical are so important in the definition it's like we know that we cannot delete animal exploitation overnight right now but we are trying to move away from it by by showing people that there is a different way to live I mean I grew up eating meat just like everyone else and and I actually I mean I I learned that I mean I loved animals growing up and then I was like well that doesn't make sense if I love animals why am I why am I causing their suffering intentionally causing their suffering because I knew that chickens needed to die for me to have chicken I mean it's so the value I get out of having a relationship with a chicken by the way is so much more than five minutes of taste pleasure that I would have gotten from eating a corpse of a chicken and right again I'm going to kick this back to martin because that's James had asked for but just to again just put a final touch on the what you're saying there is that I will grant you I mean I will even grant you let's stop going to mcdonnell it's like I'll grant you let's stop buying you know factory farm meats if at if veganism is as a protest against factory farming I'm on board you know I'll volunteer for that but at veganism as a moral position as an ethical position doesn't follow because there are of non-fringe situations we have the situation with limes at the situation with animal testing for medication these are not fringe these are these are things that that touch all of our lives every day and I get a huge amount of value out of my horses I get a huge amount of value out of my goats both from relationship and from traction power and from food and I'm sorry for my camera feet dying I actually bumped my bump my camera and I can't get the feedback so but anyway martin okay what I just want to say that is that I think a person can be too obsessed with animal suffering just like a person can be not not care about animal suffering and both is wrong in my opinion just like if you eat too much then you'll die and just if you eat nothing you'll die there's a there's a middle point and I think a person can make a channel and call it the super annoying vegans and then tell vegans they don't care enough about animals because they have to eat less it's going to cause less animal suffering they have to make their houses smaller because it's going to cause less animal suffering and they have to research about each vegan food because each vegan food causes animal suffering so we have to go with the food that causes the least least amount of animal suffering and you are forced to eat that if you really care about animals and you have to feel bad if you're if you don't eat that it doesn't matter how bad it tastes you have to eat that do you agree that being too obsessed with animal suffering is bad no how can you be can you be too obsessed with human suffering can you be too obsessed with it if you if you are too obsessed with animal suffering then you will just do you think it's possible to be too obsessed with the suffering of humans yes you do yes I told you at the beginning you can you can brainwash a person into caring so much about human suffering that they think it's a child abuse to bring a human into the world because they don't want the child to suffer or a person to suffer they almost guaranteed to suffer so you'd be okay with someone knowingly buying products you know of like buying human products instead of animal products knowing that humans suffered to produce those products because we just can't care that much about human suffering no that's not what I said I said that's what people are doing in the animal context you have to put it in the same context people are buying the products of animal suffering they're buying the corpses of animals murder victims and chopped up and served in grocery stores that's what people are buying if they were doing that in the human context you would be appalled you wouldn't be saying hey guys we can't be concerned with human suffering all the time like a little bit of a little bit of I'm just saying extremes are bad you can be so obsessed with veganism not extreme veganism is simply some just to hear the rest just to hear the rest from Martin go ahead Martin some vegans are super extreme they want to kill humans that kill other animals they want to skull humans that murderers that kill other animals they they get angry and put hate on people for killing other animals that's crazy talk in my opinion I think it's okay to feel angry it's okay to feel angry and frustrated and it feels hopeless sometimes because I see what I see today in the world that I live in is people putting themselves on this pedestal where we think we can just insert ourselves put our hands in everything that has to do with this planet and its beautiful nature and and we're destroying it like if we continue doing what we're doing right now this planet is it's the planet is not going to die we are going to die but you know I just see that people not caring enough is the problem I wish people cared more I wish people could live in harmony with the animals on this planet and like there I mean I consider them my brothers and sisters why why do I not owe them respect it's easy to respect an animal while still respecting because people say that a lot oh you can't care about multiple if you care about yeah animals you why don't you care about why don't you care about this or that why aren't you fighting for for children in Siberia or Siberia Syria Syria there it is possible to care for multiple issues at once there's room in my heart for all I mean well so is your argument that because some vegans care too much about animals that devalues human life like is that the reason why veganism devalues human life that's one of the reasons but not all vegans think that you should just end your life to cause zero suffering that's actually not the vegan position at all the vegan that's not what I said I said vegans I've seen lots of vegans hate people for killing animals and I've seen lots of meat eaters hate people too it's not a product of eating meat it's a product of the human being the individual having a personality the the vegan veganism itself is simply the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals that's it we just we want to treat cows pigs chickens goats sheep the same as we treat cats and dogs that's what we want to do yeah I I agree that it's good to care about animals I just say that you can go to extreme was getting too much about animals and then hating humans for it and devaluing humans and putting the image of God into a chicken and essential to veganism hating humans is not entailed in veganism no I agree okay but it can't cause it all right it can't be conceded no no I agree it's like but it it causes that if you if you are super obsessed with animal suffering then it causes hate towards humans and you you classify them as murderers and you would want them to go to jail for killing an animal for food stuff like that that's and you also cause animal suffering no to that yeah you're talking to two vegans who don't hate humans so I mean it's anecdotal clearly but we're going by the definition of veganism veganism is not entail hating humans you can love animals and you can love humans simultaneously one does not devalue the other no and not that most vegans were meat eaters it's very rare that someone grew up vegan these days I mean we were there too and we just changed our minds and now we're trying to inform people hey listen there's this different way of living if you hadn't thought about it before if you love animals if you care about animals it is possible to live you know worse we're what six years in we're not ghosts we're alive I think at one point you said vegans are I don't know what it was but I was like we're we're here we're doing well and it is possible there are there are I mean we don't touch on the medical stuff because that's not our field we refer to the health the health-based stuff yeah that's not our field we refer to the professionals for that and but we have it is what is this study that a plant-based diet it is possible to live a healthy lifestyle on a plant-based diet yeah that's according to the academy of nutrition and dietetics but those are non-vegan health professionals and we're not health professionals yeah and what I what another point is veganism food still causes massive amounts of suffering so if you want to reduce suffering eat less okay and so you can go crazy like that veganism is about not exploiting living beings so we know crop deaths occur we know the majority of crop deaths occur in animal products so the the way to get rid of the majority of crop deaths is to not eat animal products so we're we're doing what we can but it's not veganism is not a a mentality that seeks to reduce harm because like you said if it were everyone would just not exist because that would reduce the most amount of harm veganism is against animal exploitation that's what we're against justice and and again like I was saying uh veganism devalues human life because it extends moral rights that by the very nature are exclusive to humans and humans like which right veganism veganism just one second is a even even if you were to extend those rights veganism as a goal is self-contradictory because you want to do the planet a good a good you like save the planet ecology and all that but by dividing animal husbandry from plant agriculture plant husbandry you actually make this whole food system unsustainable so even as an end goal it's it's uh devalues human life justice do you think it is do you disagree okay so I would imagine that the animals you keep you treat them well right they try to make every day of their life the best day until the last day right so why is it that we draw the line at you know every people seem to consider animal welfare uh people take animal welfare seriously even people who consume meat it is animal welfare is important to them up until it comes up until the day of killing them um against their will I mean don't you you talked about rights why do you think an animal do you think animals should be allowed their basic right to life or and a base the right to live a life free of suffering isn't that everyone's how we treat right again uh like with the example that I was showing from William William Wilberforce and his drive to for the human treatment of animals at the same time as he was working for the abolition of slavery the the old or appropriate contextualized understanding of the humane treatment of animals has human interests in the center so I treat my animals well because it reflects well on who I am as a person and it has little less to do with with them as it has to do with the person we want to treat your animal well for them we don't treat the animals well for them no which because we eat them eventually you know so it's not it's not a consideration it's not a consideration for them it's a consideration for for me I don't want to torture animals because that damages my soul animals willy nilly and you wouldn't see a moral issue it's like beating the crap out of your animals on a daily basis no it's the same thing the same reason why I wouldn't beat the crap out of my car or beat the crap out of my house because it reflects poorly on my soul it does damage to me as an individual um because are you right and I agree my car is not alive but but anger and rage and those kinds of emotions that I express damage my soul just as much as they if I kick the dog and so you you work for the humane treatment of animals um because it reflects either properly or poorly on your soul just like it says in proverbs the righteous man takes care of his animals um that just seems so that's wild then then forget all that right comes time to kill them like that's their will yeah that just seems wildly egotistical like I you don't harm others because you don't want to look bad I don't beat brian because it reflects poorly on me not because it hurts brian right the reason I don't punch other humans is because they wouldn't like it it's not not about me the relate the relationship between humans doesn't harm the relationship between humans and humans is always human centric the relationship between humans and animals also to not devolve into a quagmire of irreconcilable irreconcilable logical fallacies also has to be human centric um and that's why why because why can't we care about animals for animal sake because of the the things that you guys already admitted that for instance someone who has Lyme disease who can't get it cured another way is not condemned for eating animals for six months or the people who use condemned someone for testing someone self-defense I don't know I don't kill it for for killing someone okay then so that's the fringe example but but but I but I would I would condemn someone who for instance needed a kidney transplant and went and killed someone for a kidney transplant that would be I would condemn him for that so you're it's a false equivalency when you try to bring that that into self-defense into the question the question would be if I was sick do I kill animals to help myself get better if I am sick can I kill people to help me get better and the answer in the one is yes and the answer in the second is no and our question to you is why is it okay to kill the animals and not the humans because animals do not have the same value as humans according to who humans are more valuable according to my worldview according to the bible according to the judei the bibles are relevant the bible is just a book written back by someone the bible is irrelevant we're asking and that's part of what I wish to demonstrate today is that when we abandon the moral framework that we have in the bible then we get into these strange humanistic but actually non-human centered philosophies like veganism like communism like fascism you can be vegan can't you be both uh you can be vegan and christian as a form of protest against animal or as for dietary reasons but not for moral reasons no you can't just choose to respect god's creation as a christian you can't just choose to treat his creation with respect as a christian you can't be vegan and christian if you look you being a being a vegan is a burden and if you were to okay sorry go go go for it martin okay okay what i want to say is being a vegan is a burden god has put no such moral obligation on people they have absolute freedom to eat whatever they want any animal that they want no such a burden is put on them by god but you can choose to be vegan in christian right you can choose to do that sure and the bible says that if a person's is vegan then his faith is weak i can god says that if now that bible says a person yes if one person is like vegans have weak faith that's in the bible oh your faith is weak so obviously that's why you're vegan no martin we're asking for the like the biblical quote that says anything about veganism i was unaware that the bible said anything about veganism it says though shall not kill but yeah okay yeah it says uh roman's 14 or an asterisk so in in a sense we are following god's yeah though thou shalt not kill rule is a pretty big one roman's 14 verse two once person's faith allows them to eat anything but another whose faith is weak it's only vegetables vegans don't eat only vegetables yeah well i'm just giving an example yeah well you're giving a poor example you're that's a poor example the vegans eat many more foods than vegetables would it yeah i'm just i'm perhaps i made a mistake there uh sorry but the word the word the word in roman's that's used as vegetables is actually better translated as food that is grown so grown food but like like food that's plant-based not animal-based so that martin's actually bringing up a good verse um and um i so god has put no such commandment on people and i think if someone commands people to not enjoy the gifts that god gave them which is animals foods i think it can turn into a doctrine of demons in my opinion because it's not a command from god at all i'm sorry i just what's that no i'm just go ahead oh i i just i still don't understand i haven't been presented with with great arguments or evidence as to why simply treating a non-human with respect means that you're devaluing a human i don't know why you can't do both you you can value both i don't see the contradiction if you place if you place the value on a non-human that is exclusively that it should be exclusively reserved for humans then you are by definition devaluing that human but we're placing human value on humans we're just treating them with it's like saying to it's like it's like saying to henry ford uh about his model t that no i'm not gonna drive in this car because that would be exploitative to the car i'm just gonna you know pet it and wash it every day and wax it but the car is not sent to exploiting art cannot experience life subjectively the car does not have feelings the car does not feel joy or pain that's why we care about what i'm saying for their pain is and what i'm saying pain is made for our lives um sorry justice do you want to go oh no go for it marnie okay pain is made for our good to protect us there are children that can't feel pain and then they destroy themselves they scratch out their eyes um and the parents like cry and wish their child could feel pain so it not only protects us it's useful or good it also protects animals now we can program animals to not feel pain we can put the same error that says in children some children and put it in animals and then they will also just destroy themselves so if we want to play god and think animal suffering is such a bad thing we can program them not to feel suffering well then by that logic then a human child who doesn't feel any pain you can just beat them and hit them and do whatever you want because they don't feel anything so what's the problem i didn't say that no your logic said that logic no no i i i think animals feeling pain is a good thing i do too it helps them just like it helps us she is a helpful primary trait that we all share i agree that's why plants don't feel pain because they can't move out of the way so there was no reason for them to evolve the sensation of pain but yes animals do feel pain and it is wrong to cause them needless pain just like it is wrong to cause a human needless pain so that's this you go and again like in the in the next few minutes we may go into the q and a just want to let you guys know that and folks if you have a question feel free to fire it into the old live chat our guests are linked in the description you give you guys several more minutes just to draw together some of the threads from the discussion yep and again like what i was saying about is from the beginning that mechanism as a as a philosophy as a worldview as a moral position devalues human life because because it extends to non-humans rights and considerations that should be exclusive to uh to humans just like with the analogy with henry ford in the model t um so the animals should be treated but sentience sentience is not i mean so so what so it is sentient that's if we make a computer sentient then then do we have to you know evaluate as much as a horse or as much as a child or as much as me or as much as you know of course not um and because there we're talking about non-human animals that the the demarcation is human or non-human and yes that is species then absolutely i'm a you know that's an absolute species position because we need to work on at least getting our human brothers and sisters up to a level of dignity and for 50 of the planet that means eating you know animal products as a necessity of life okay i mean i guess if we're wrapping yeah we're wrapping up i mean the the debate proposition was does veganism devalue human life um veganism is simply the belief that non-human animals should not be exploited needlessly so the only arguments we've heard during this debate is that veganism extends rights that should be reserved for humans to non-human animals but i haven't heard an argument as to why those rights should only be reserved for animals other than vaguely god said so sort of or god made us in his image and we never defined what god's image was we never it is possible to explain rights to both humans and animals alike yeah without taking anything away from the humans just because you know i respect animals doesn't mean i don't respect uh the black lives matter movement or i don't support of feeding hungry children in parts of the world where they don't have where they where there's food insecurity things like that it's possible to care about multiple issues at once and not one takes anything away from the other in fact if anything it informs the other it encourages compassion and empathy and understanding things that we really need right now you got it we are going to jump into the q and a folks we want to say thank you so much for your questions thanks for hanging out with us and if you haven't heard if you've been living in a cave on mars with your fingers in your ears today is our 12 hour debate stream no joke we have four debates within this 12 hour stream that we're doing today so if you just got here we're gonna be here all day in particular me it is going to be a blast and so let's jump into those questions won't remind you our guest or link to the description we really do appreciate them as they are the lifeblood of the channel folks and so as always want to encourage you to attack the arguments not the person in pancake of destiny thanks for your question says language filter is bad i don't remember what that would refer to in what came up language filter yeah i'm confused anybody else get it okay prince vigina thanks for your question said just showing some support for the show they're probably they're probably saying that i speak bad english maybe i don't know but silver harlow thanks for your question as well says james you are a crazy person but a good kind of crazy good luck with this crazy debate marathon thank you silver we are pumped for this debate marathon i've got the coffee made i'm excited and pancake of destiny says if we stop eating meat what you do what do you do with animals so namely like all the kind of cows that might be at factory farms things like that yeah so obviously if we stop eating meat what are we going to do with all the animals so as veganism the world is not going to go vegan overnight unfortunately but as the demand for animal products keeps going down and it will keep going down then fewer and fewer animals will be bred into existence fewer and fewer animal products will be produced we don't have like 70 billion land animals floating around because they just breed a lot we forcibly breed them into existence we forcibly breed animals and take their children from them and kill them so that we can eat them so as demand goes down the animal population will go down doesn't mean that they'll go extinct obviously we have cats dogs rabbits other animals that we don't exploit we don't eat and they still exist so yes if we Thanos snap our fingers and everyone goes vegan overnight we'd have a problem but unfortunately it's not going to happen that way gotcha and thanks for your question Datto Papanda appreciate you asking as i didn't really mention this want to let you know the schedule the debate card for today's 12 hour stream and i want to quick mention these black lives matter is in fact the next topic coming up and so that's in 45 minutes that'll start and then at 5 p.m. eastern whether or not there's evidence for intelligent design should be juicy and then at 8 p.m. yes Nathan Thompson and T jump are squaring off on the shape of the earth this time we might finally get our answer so that will be a lot of fun we'll get to the bottom of that one but reverend elation thinks your question says omnivores the bible says quote forbidding to eat certain foods unquote is demonic because god made them good and to be received with thanksgiving in first trend first timothy 4 1 through 4 should christians follow doctrines of demons so it says there that it says there that it's doctrine of demons to command people to not receive and eat food that god gave us to be received with thanks Thanksgiving god gave no command for us to not eat animal foods this is interesting and i would also say that is another reason why christians cannot be vegans as a moral position they can be for dietary reasons or for protest but not for moral reasons otherwise they fall into doctrines of demons super interesting so i'll give you on and brian if you want a chance to respond you can but because uh basically this almost seemed like a softball in favor of martin and justice like they're agreeing with you guys i've never heard this idea namely the you know for example like in acts 10 when god says according to acts 10 it says that you can eat anything i usually have heard that in the context of relative to the old testament i've never heard it be used against vegans but anyway so i don't write and if you want to respond it will give you a chance to respond because like i said that that one was kind of a softball in favor of martin and uh justice uh i mean assuming that in all knowing all loving creator created us and these animals with the ability to feel pain and joy and suffering and if we are to believe that what he wants us to do is he wants us to forcibly breed them into existence like literally act yes like god like gods and then like a god kill them as babies against their will to eat their corpses um if he's mad at me for not doing that i think that's okay gotcha now this one is pancake of destiny sorry they said language filter is bad the reason they said that wasn't to make fun of your english justice it was instead because they were trying to put in a question but there are certain words youtube won't allow in the super chats so bocage thank you for your question said so you guys think that if i eat tofu instead of a steak human value just magically decreases like that just uh just like that this is ridiculous now let's get some let's get some justice on that one um the the just and righteous answer to that question is that no of course not eat tofu as much as you want the problem is is when you say that it is immoral to eat meat um and when you begin to raise the status of animals into the level of humans then you do value you you make less valuable human value because chickens and babies are not equally valuable gotcha and this one coming in from silver harlow appreciate it said brian definitions are not facts written in stone a dictionary can only describe how people use words and can do so incompletely it is reasonable to argue that someone is using a word too broadly yeah i agree i mean i agree with the um the matt dillahunty uh belief that language is our bitch and so you know we can we can change and modify language as we see fit because we invented it so we can change it but as it exists right now there is a definition of the word murder that means to wantonly kill to intentionally kill i mean that it's there that that is a definition of murder now i know people that makes people feel uncomfortable just like forcefully impregnating an animal that's called rape but people don't like that word because it makes them feel bad so it doesn't really matter how it makes you feel the act is the same we're talking about the act the act meaning you're intentionally killing an animal against their will so we can phrase it like that you know is it moral to intentionally kill an animal against his or her will just so you can eat their corpse i mean that's just a much longer version gotcha and thank you very much for your question this one coming in from mark reads as vegans do you value humans over animals in any aspect would you choose an animal to die so a human could live for example production of insulin well i think we've already answered that i mean we are not we i mean that was one of the first things i answered in the debate um but again to reiterate we are trying to move away from methods that are used currently that exploit animals that cause animals great suffering we're trying to move away from that and i think it is possible you know it's not overnight but people are getting smarter every day every decade and we are already moving away from some of those i mean humans uh well i i guess i won't bring that up just a touch on the second point real really quickly um uh we don't have to make those choices every day in terms of like what you know what people put at the end of their forks that's what we're trying to focus on mainly is is what people choose to consume when they go to the grocery store you don't know if you want to add something no i just mean i think i think forcing this choice that doesn't exist like well would you kill an animal or a human it's just it's a false it's a diet it's a false dichotomy i've said at the whole debate are there instances where we are forced to make those decisions yes i mean we live in a house where the dry wall dry wall is made from animals like that again the words possible and practicable are very important because there are their animal exploited and that's what's disappointing animal exploitation is everywhere it's some things that we wouldn't even have expected yeah so we try our best within what we can do you know we it's not possible or practicable for us to live in a mud hut granted we have one in our backyard but it's not for a living it's a small one but it's not possible and practicable we do what we can yeah within the problem that we have is when people go hey this person over here needs a medication for this medical condition that was tested on animals and then they go therefore i can eat eggs it's it's just doesn't it's not equal it's not a great comparison gotcha and this question coming in from medus nco says for the vegans how can you keep using the word quote unquote murder when the definition means killing a human changing definitions let me look at it because i don't think people believe it doesn't there is a definition of murder that means to slay wantonly you can google it right now you see there are multiple definitions for the word murder yes some include the human context some include the legal context some some instances it's it's only murder and webster transitive verb one to kill a human being unlawfully and with premeditated malice two to slaughter wantonly three to put an end to teas or term i mean that goes on but that's one of the definition that's right miriam webster not we're not making it up and again we could replace if it makes you feel better about the choices you make every day we're happy to replace murder with kill by force or against their will you got it it comes out of the word then it's more the meaning that we're trying to convey you got it and jeremy martin thanks for your ice cream cone super sticker along with the legend rives appreciate your question saying humans are important for our survival not an animal's morals we eat animals feed the humans and teach them how to breed more animals human rights we agree humans should have rights and non-humans should have rights that doesn't mean you give non-humans rights it doesn't mean oh humans don't have rights anymore it's not a hot potato gotcha and ryan phoenix arizona says it the extending rights to non-humans dilutes the value of the rights the humans hold how dogs have rights again like killing and certain forms of animal abuse in the u.s are a felony they were they were written into the into the law if anyone is caught beating a dog on the street don't you think people would have something to say about it does that mean that the people that the person committing the act of abuse oh no no no it's their right to abuse the dog because it's a dog you know when when women were granted the right to vote did that devalue men's rights to vote no because women are also humans i think that women are all that's convenient once upon a time we were not considered once upon a time they were considered equal people of color were not considered equal one this is the thing when you look at it from the point of view of the oppressor it is easy now with confirmation bias to be like oh well women were always human but there were people who didn't think we were deserving of those rights ones long ago just like we're hoping to move evolve past the oh well animals are not human so we don't owe them anything gotcha and thank you very much for this question this one coming in from male user says how can vegans make a moral argument as moral relatives they may not like a religious justification for morality but they cannot offer any non-subjective justification and hence lose by default well moral relativity and moral subjectivity are two different things but by all evidence that we can observe all morality is subjective because morality is simply a thing that exists in the minds of homo sapiens so if homo sapiens all went extinct morality would human morality would also go extinct so even religious morality even if you believe things are right or wrong because a god says so then that's basically just god's subjective opinion of what's right and wrong it's still subjective god is a subject so you're either doing what you believe to be right like you're doing good things because you believe them to be good or you're doing good things because you believe this other guy told you to do them because they're good because he subjectively thinks they're good it's always subjective it like saying that if god doesn't exist then objective morality can't exist that's not actually an argument for objective morality gotcha and this one coming in from ryan phoenix arizona says sentience is just and made measure a man made measure just as the bible is does brian have proof that plants aren't sentient many believe they are some plants eat flies and react to touch i just want to demonstrate you can speak on something uh yes sentience is the ability to experience life subjectively so basically what that means is that it feels like something to be someone so anyone who has a subjective experience uh has a point of view they have their own reality their own way of viewing the world um plants on the other hand and and to the best of our knowledge according to the cambridge declaration on consciousness which was written in 2012 um non-human animals also produce also have the same substrates in their brain to produce consciousness so we know for a fact that animals with a brain and a nervous system do experience sentience we to the best of our knowledge sentience comes from having a brain and central nervous system and this celery here has no brain has no nervous system however i can chop it in half and guess what new celery starts to grow i can do that as many times as i want and new leaves will always pop up you can do that with some animals as well so but yeah maybe a chris like what it were the starfish yeah a lizard's tail but not most i mean we have a lemon tree outside every single season it drops lemons on the ground that we eat the tree doesn't that's what a tree is meant to do it's meant to spread its seed so we we consume the and the screen does the tree doesn't scream i mean i would argue that if someone thinks that it's possible for a plant to feel pain then i would also ask them is it possible for a plant to have a stomach ulcer and if the answer is well no because they don't have a stomach well then the answer is well no they can't feel pain because they don't have a brain like they're i mean i don't see people protesting on the street when the neighbor mows the lawn you know that's just not a very genuine concern that people have i mean if you're driving a car and there's a patch of flowers on the curb and you know would you avoid the dog and and drive into the patch of flowers or you know yeah this one and if the person asking this question is a plant's rights activist they should still eat a plant-based diet because eating plant-based kills far fewer plants as well gosh and thank you very much for this question coming in from you guessed it male user again says is it objectively true that it's always subjective namely that morality is it's not oh is it objectively true that morality is subjective to the best of our knowledge yes i mean we can't prove it to be objective yes got you and next up alex devenport asks do you think my wife is less of a vegan for marrying me who is a meat eater does your wife if your wife doesn't exploit animals needlessly then she's vegan i mean that's the definition gotcha she she made me she condones meat eating because she condones your behavior but she's vegan gotcha and this one coming on from bocage says we kill animals for nothing more taste buds is a little bit of taste really worth more than an entire animal's life i think that's for you justice and martin okay you can you can say the same with vegans right away again go justice i'm sorry my internet lags so i yeah but the thing i like to say right right away is that the the killing of animals eating of animals is not just about taste pleasure this is a myth propagated by by vegan activists it has to do with ecology it has to do with sustainable agricultural practices and it has to do with sustainable food uh diet for the vast majority of the people that dwell on this planet that doesn't happen to be you and your neighbors because you live in the golden billion but it happens to be the vast majority of all other people who live on the planet so no it's not for just taste pleasure it's for survival and for survival not only of humans but also of the planet if we want to have a stable agricultural system gotcha yeah and i i just want to add to that um i think you can turn that around against the vegans because their foods also cause animal suffering so you can go and research which food causes the least amount of animal suffering it doesn't matter how bad it tastes you need to eat it that's the same kind of floor logic this one coming in from top dog shattuck says hey martin what if veganism is the balance that you want let me say this if god commanded us to be vegans i would join them 100 i think in heaven everyone's gonna be a vegan but that's not now and pain there's gonna be no pain but that's not now pain is not evil here and eating animals is not evil yeah can i just say if you believe that heaven in heaven everyone will be vegan you don't want to bring heaven to earth you're choosing not to bring heaven to earth while you're here that's such a bizarre choice to make like no that's like that's like saying that's like saying no one's gonna have children in heaven definitely no one's gonna have children so don't you want to bring that to earth and take away all people's ability to have children because a child bringing a child into the world it's gonna feel pain so if you're obsessed enough about child's pain you would say it's child abuse it's the same kind of craziness all right you would need to provide evidence that people aren't gonna have kids in heaven this one coming in they're not gonna marry i don't know what heaven is like i don't know what there is on the other side this one coming this one coming in from buck buck oh harem thank you says most vegans that matter very math malthusian i was vegan for three years what does that what does that mean by the way malthusian they said i was vegan for three years so i was vegan for three years so i was vegan for three years so met plenty could you ask these guys if the lowering of human population is a worthy goal oh i think that malthusian might mean uh kind of a philosophy of reducing the world's population anti-natalism yeah it says a person who supports the population proposed by yeah james i can hear you i was just trying to interject malthusian has to do with being anti-human and decreasing the population because of the cycles of starvation and so forth and so on yeah i don't know why why that would ever be tied to veganism because again veganism is an animal rights movement so vegan is vegan are there vegans who are anti-natalist sure are there meat eaters who are anti-natalist yes it has nothing to do with veganism itself i'm just reading it says the idea that population growth is potentially exponential while the growth of the food supply or other resources is linear which eventually reduces living standards to the point of triggering triggering a population die off so i don't know if it's something that naturally happens in that theoretical view or something that should be forced to happen that would be a big distinction yeah um but we're not malthus malthus advocated advocated population control but yeah well i don't know what that has to do with veganism by killing humans or by not having babies different branches of malthusianism have different things some of them would say they'd be anti-natalist and some of them would say like kill the lower classes but again what that has to do with veganisms i don't quite know yeah and this was 1798 what was the population in 1798 that he was so concerned i mean this might have had political i would have to read up on this because i've never heard of this term or this viewpoint but um it could have had political under uh what do you call it uh interests gotcha and this one coming in from brad burr says brian and anna why don't the venus fly traps make more morally responsible food choices i think they're asking like is it unethical from your view that they eat flies venus fly traps are not sent in they're intelligent if you put i don't know this i feel like this even this is cruel but there are people who i've seen videos of people putting cigarettes in venus fly traps and they still close their mouths on cigarettes they'll close their they have sensors uh just like the dormidones that we have in costarica you touch them and they they close so they don't have the ability to make conscious moral choices gotcha plants are intelligent and this you got it and last one this one coming in from do appreciate your question augmented space asks oh gosh it says brian have you ever heard of a screen a tree scream in pain when a large limb is torn off of it i think it's supposed to be a joke from when you hear the wood splitting gotcha and want to say folks so you know like yeah when the wood splits it makes that squeaky sound but basically what they're they're being i think they're being they're joking but i hope but want to let you know folks our guests are linked to the description highly encourage you to check out their links we're extremely thankful for them and you guys if you didn't know it if you just came into the stream late we're going 12 hours today this is the first of four debates the other ones in about 22 minutes so i'm going to be back with a post credit scene or you could say in this case an intermission scene we'll share about stuff with the channel as well as this juicy debate that you can see on the right side of your screen as we're pumped to have made the 78 percent mark for that crowd fund and if you for example want to see peter sanger on the channel someday like very famous vegan in the philosophy world if you'd like to see him for example debate on this channel no joke this crowdfund strategy that i'll talk about in the intermission is a very practical strategy so and one cool thing is if you didn't know i had heard because he our department hosted him a long time ago peter sanger at that time he would have an honorarium that he would receive and required to speak but he would give it all to charity and so that's something that's cool i was like hey maybe somebody maybe someday we'll get there but that depends on this crowdfund strategy working for us and so i'll share more about that in a moment but thanks so much to our guests ana brian and martin and justice it's been a true pleasure to have you guys here thank you as always thank you guys for the good conversation yeah and thank you justice and martin for hitting us up and actually making the debate happen because so frequently people will do the debate me bro thing and then never actually follow through or make it happen so we always appreciate the chance to have the debate and we really appreciate you james for providing this neutral platform it's an amazing channel we watch it all the time and you're one of the more handsome debate moderators on youtube i will also say thank you brian seriously i encourage that you're the first time i blushed on stream for a while so thank you and so folks we are thrilled we appreciate our guests and as always we want to let you know we hope you feel welcome here no matter what walk of life you're from i'll be right back with that post credit scene in just a moment gentlemen that was epic i am so pumped so want to let you know oh man you guys it is just such a joy to be here i want to let you know about upcoming events first i want to say thank you everybody for being with us want to say hello to you in the old chat as well as want to say thank you so much to the moderators the moderators do a phenomenal job and i do want to start by in our intermission time i've got about 10 minutes and then we're going to start the next debate actually but i want to take during this break a moment to say to the moderators i am super thankful for you we're all thankful for you and i think it was on friday uh was it wednesday i think it was wednesday i had spoken with broad what's the word i'm looking for with broad brush strokes such that i had said i didn't mean to say that it wasn't meant to be an insult and it wasn't mean to be unqualified when i had said that i had said the moderators do have biases is i want to make sure that everybody knows that i will admit that i have a bias i think that everybody has a bias and confirm like i mean i know that you know i'm getting my doctorate in psychology i can tell you everybody has some sort of confirmation bias pretty much uh yeah i mean it's everybody has it and in pretty much in every almost every domain like it's so prevalent and widespread that i don't like it when i once in a while i i saw like on a news program one of the news anchors was accused of being biasing he's like no i'm not biased we have no bias here and it's like what you do um the first thing to being able to keep it in check is admitting it so i will admit i have a bias and when i had said that the moderators on i think it was wednesday when i with broad brush strokes that the moderators are biased i i'm not trying to throw you under the bus if you're a moderator i am so sorry i i want to make sure that i do mention that uh i am thankful for you moderators seriously and i did not mean to throw you under the bus and i also know that there was a little bit of confusion i want to quick straighten out in terms of what is allowed to be said as well as what's not allowed to be said during the stream and so moderators should be here just to clarify anything that's purposely trying to get under the skin of a guest that's where we're like hey so-and-so in the chat you want to play nice because we don't like that and you can if it's if it's especially mean like if they're like all that person's a fat loser or something go ahead and time them out and say hey one more time and you're gone for good if it's hate speech we don't even give a warning so so for example obviously somebody use the n word it we're just gonna ban them immediately we're not even gonna play around with it and so want to let you know those things now we've talked about if someone purposely misgenders that is against the rule so like if somebody's like oh that's so-and-so that person is really just a dude in a dress they're not really that's where it's like well you're clearly trying to get under their skin you're trying to be malevolent however i do want to point out though that if someone has a you know if people differ on their definition of what a woman is so some people they might say i think that trans women do fall under the umbrella of the broader definition of woman that's fine don't ban them for that don't time them out for that likewise if someone says well i i actually differ i i don't think that trans women fit under the umbrella of the broader word or definition of woman then again we don't want to ban them for disagreeing on definitions or categories like that's where it's like no no no we're not we're not trying to like carry out any sort of philosophy here my thing is the reason that i don't like the purposeful misgendering is because that's when people are doing that there's a malevolence behind it where they're trying to purposely target somebody and i'm like we're not we're not gonna allow that but if they disagree on like what what all fits under the definition of the term or the word woman like i'm not gonna say that they have to to go this way or that way that that's not where i'm wanting to go with the channel so it's and i think the moderators i think you guys probably were on the same page but let me know if there's any sort of confusion and i'm happy to answer questions while i'm here and there's going to be gray areas too and that's normal like we're we're always going to have something where we're kind of like moving through as new words come up new ideas come up this channel was designed to be flexible with the current events like it's it's a modern-day debate i purposely didn't name it a specific name of a specific type of debate or topic of debate because i always wanted to have this be open so we can have new ideas debated and that's why it's broadly just modern-day debate and so anyway we do have three debates to go folks if you are just getting here it's like oh baby it is absolutely exciting we have three more debates to go folks three it's going to be amazing so let me show you a couple things though and you might be like hey i heard about this crowdfund what's that about james or is that something you just made up i mean it sounds made up i don't know it's not made up this is the real thing let me show you this june 5th we only have about seven days to go you guys this debate with matt delahunty and dr kenny rhodes which is on screen at the moment boy you don't want to miss it i'm telling you it is going to be epic and so please folks keep in mind june 5th that is going to be a dynamite debate and we have a crowdfund basically where we are using this new strategy to where like i said if we want to get peter sanger or other top level speakers as this one's going to be a main event no doubt i mean we've got matt delahunty juggernaut debater as well as dr kenny rhodes christian apologist scholar and pastor they're going to date it's going to be awesome but in terms of other debates as well we're using this crowdfund strategy and you might be like well james i don't know if that even works i mean you make promises because that's the thing for this debate to happen we need to make it to our goal i've promised already that all that you could say like deals are made such that we have to i am determined i don't care if i have to do a car wash with t jump in may we are going to make this happen and so want to let you know about that it's going to be epic and so we're determined it's going to happen we're going to reach our goal to make this event happen but we do want to invite you if you've ever found the channel useful if you're like hey it's cool like i'm i'm open to it but james how do you know you guys can make the goal well let me show you bottom right of the screen this is our Kickstarter a similar crowdfunding platform that we did back in january 143 backers pledged 3100 you guys this is absolutely epic we have already done it successfully and we're going to do it again like i said i don't care if me and t jump got to do a car wash in may in colorado where it's chilly here we're going to make it and this is the platform we're using indigo indiegogo as you see on the top left of your screen your screen and you can sign in with facebook so want to let you know about that we're pumped you don't even have to create an email account you don't even have to like create an account on indiegogo you can sign in just for your facebook it is so easy and you can even sign in there's multiple ways to sign in so it's really easy i want to and then also last but not least the perks because you might somebody just asked me during the stream they're like hey how can i get some of the modern day debate merchandise like a t-shirt well let me show you some of the perks and there are a lot of perk levels so some of them are like three bucks the price of a cup of coffee i mean if this channel has been useful to you and you're like yeah yeah it's like sure because that motivates us about this strategy of the crowdfund tour we're like hey let's shoot for bigger better more high-profile debates is that motivates me to take risks with this crowdfund strategy because it is a little risky sometimes i look at the crowdfund and i'm like oh boy this is a big goal but believe me we're already at 70% and we're going to make it so modern day to date coffee mug you can see that at the very top of the page and again these are some of the higher level perks so it really helps us make this event happen as well as you get one of these perks so an embossed postcard for $39 $50 modern day to date t-shirt and you're again helping make this event happen but i also want to mention for all of these perks you not only get the perk you signed up for so for example theoretically let's say you signed up for the modern day to date hoodie you get not only the hoodie but all of the perks from the tiers below that perk so for example you would get the modern day to date hoodie plus the modern day to date t-shirt plus the embossed postcard which is a thumbnail of the event with the embossed modern day to date logo plus the coffee mug plus your name on screen plus your name read out loud at the end of the street it's amazing so there's a lot of stuff here and so i want to encourage you if you're like hey james this crowdfund idea i want to let you know even if you are like james you know like times are tight i don't blame you like even a dollar you can you actually even just throw in a dollar and that actually helps as well and then some of these i want to let you know some of these perks are limited so meet and greet with a guest i think we have two of those left and that's where you get to meet and talk with matt dillanty and dr. kenny rhodes before the debate will come kind of welcome you into the zoom call with link and come in and say hi to him get to you know chat and then that i think we've got two left of it because we wanted to limit the number so we don't have too many people in the zoom chat and that as well as the zoom chat one on one with james which if you want you could record it put it on your own channel whatever if it's if you want to like a friendly you know short it's only an hour like abbreviated debate mini debate or also maybe you're just like hey james teach me in an hour how to use uh obs and all the streaming stuff that you use let me know and so again if you signed up for that for example you know you get not only the perk that you signed up for but all of the stuff below it you guys that's crazy that's huge so we're excited about that and we are absolutely pumped 100 pumped as i want to show you this on screen you guys so it's gonna look a little bit funky right now because i'm there's like multiple zoom there you can see me okay so as you see on the far right of your screen folks check that out as i'm not brian obviously i the zoom the zoom windows are scrambled brian terrific terrific guy tremendous i'm not as handsome as brian that's you know that's why i have to go clarify they look like oh that's he's not so far right of your screen we're at 78 percent for this crowdfund and you might be like well james how does the crowdfund work where is that like um how do i sign up well it is linked in the description right under the debate card so that's one way you can sign up but let me send you another right now i'll put the link for the crowdfund in the old live chat and fund there it is let me know if that crowdfund link works i just threw it into the old live chat and then i'm going to link it at the very top and then want to say hi to you though before i let the new debaters come in and we'll we're this stream will still be going so at this link that you're at right now we're still going to be continuing with our new debate we're going to host in just a second so i've got to change up the thumbnail and the title and all that so it'll take a few minutes we'll start a few minutes late but it's supposed to start in six minutes but want to say hi to you and thanks for being here club good to see you club i know that you said you didn't like Kickstarter you said indiegogo or maybe you at least said you you were like is there another platform so we're excited about that want to encourage you to join us in the vision of providing a neutral level playing field for everybody to make their case and so we can have bigger risks bigger headline events that we want to host in the future and i'm talking i'm serious i'm talking to people like dinesh desuza if we want to reach out to or maybe even someday like richard dockins like we really do want to shoot for the stars and i think that's the that's the trick many hands make light work like if there are many people that are joining in on the crowdfund and like i said even if think about this you guys i mean it's less than 10 percent if less than 10 percent of the channel threw in a dollar boom crowdfund is finished it's already completed so we are pumped though and want to say thank you guys so much so i'm in a quick setup for the next debate but want to say hello pancake of destiny good to see you as well as andrew krull boasmith brady d rev elation thank you all for being with us riley s bond and brook and we are pumped though you guys i'm going to be right back so thank you so much for all of your support and i'm going to set up for the next debate it's going to be amazing so thanks everybody oh you know what let me do this this is my favorite screen do i have the car wash it's really important to me that i there it is okay so i'm going to next debate loading imagine it says that all right i'll be right back see here i'm almost there i don't know if you guys know it almost everything great it's not modern day today to have you with me folks i'm gonna be right back i'm gonna set up and we'll be back with the next debate on black lives matter in just a moment it's going to be juicy controversial hold on to your butts everybody today we're debating whether or not black lives matter does more harm than good and we are starting right now with your nazi's opening statement thanks so much for being with us your nazi the floor is all yours thank you so much james thanks for having me on the channel and thanks for hosting the debate we're going to be talking about if blm has done more harm than good in my view they have more have done more harm than good and i'll tell you from my perspective as a political scientist so let's say i was someone who was convinced there was institutionalized racism let's say i believe that black men were shot in the streets for no reason by racist white cops let's say i wanted to get people to believe me and go along with me to change policy in order to end these terrible practices what would i do if i had two brain cells i would look for instances where this happened and then i would use the media to amplify that sound and make people see that i am right well the thing is that blm has done all of the opposites of what i just described so that makes me very skeptical of their intentions and if of the truth behind their so-called convictions they present themselves as a marxist organization they don't seek to look for any common ground and most of the instances they've used to amplify their sound have been proven to be led by a false narrative you can go from the furgusson case to the i was the one called brian case there are so many cases where they lied about a lot of the instances they lied about how the police operated they lie about their statistics that makes me very skeptical about this organization i'm myself mixed race from suriname i am black i would not want black people to be shot for no reason obviously you don't need to be black to think that i'm just giving you my perspective i actually feel really bad because i'm a right winger i'm a capitalist i like iron rand but i would actually support blm if they were correct if they could show me the numbers if they would use cases that were truthful i would still support them even though i'm a capitalist and they say they are marxist if they would have been right on the policy i would have defended them but now it's impossible for me to do that and that puts me in a very difficult spot because i don't want black people to be shot and this is just one example i'm just one person but imagine this for black people all over the world they have done no more harm than good they have made the message not reliable they have put shame on the name of what black people say like if black people now talk about someone got shot for no reason i'm going to be skeptical let alone white people who have more reason to be skeptical so that's why they've done so much more harm than good and i'm not even talking about the riots and the lighting up parts of cities i don't even want to talk about that i'm just talking about how they want to change policy and what they did to achieve that goal they were technically wrong and that makes their whole case very unreliable and that's a shame if you believe that what they say is the truth so i would say that even if you're a left winger or whatever and you fully support their goals you should be disappointed by what BLM has done because they have used the wrong instances to amplify this sound so either they are stupid or they have another agenda doesn't matter it's not good for black people it's not good for all of society that goes for america and it goes for europe because believe me we have some of these same trends popping up here the george fleutig was also a big media cycle over here so it affects the whole world if they lie about black people being shot in the streets for no reason in america so that's why i oppose them they poison the debate which isn't a debate we should be having because there are cores of truth in some of the things they say like maybe we should be using body camps maybe the police should be trained better things i'm open to but they poison the debate by making it about race and then being wrong about the instances i think i've made myself clear you got it thank you very much your nos we are thrilled to have you here and want to let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern abate we are thrilled you are here no matter what walk of life you are from christian atheist politically left politically right gay straight black white you name it we're thrilled to have you here as we are a neutral debate platform hosting debates and if you haven't heard we are doing a 12 hour debate stream today folks this is going to be epic so we are absolutely thrilled for this and we are thankful for our guests we are going to kick it over to brenton for his opening statement as well thanks so much for being with us the floor is all yours you want to know what this is really all about the nixon campaign in 1968 the nixon white house after that had two enemies the anti-war left and black people we knew we couldn't make it be illegal to be either against the war or to be black but by getting the public to associate hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin and then criminalizing both heavily we could disrupt those communities we could arrest their leaders raid their homes break up their meetings and vilify them night after night on the evening news did we know we were lying about the drugs of course we did those are the words of john ehrlichman president nixon's top aide on domestic affairs now you may wonder why i'm quoting him being the nixon administration ended 46 to 47 years ago however as we're all learning the cruel capricious and downright malicious actions of our government have serious repercussions on our society and endure long after the evil men who first carried them out are long gone according to the drug policy alliance the united states today spends an estimated 51 billion on the exact same war on drugs things got worse under president ronald reagan who massively expanded nixon's war on black people and shifted the focus on criminal punishment to criminal punishment over treatment this led to a massive increase in incarcerations fueled by the crack epidemic that arose in the early 1980s congress quickly established a series of mandatory minimum prison sentences for various drug offenses a notable feature of which was the massive gap between the amounts of crack cocaine which is associated with black users and powder cocaine which is associated with whites possession of five grams of crack led to an automatic five-year sentence while it took the possession of 500 grams of powder cocaine to trigger the same sentence it is important to note that these are the exact same drug and do exactly the same thing and to this day there is a unproven but still nonetheless strong suspicion among many in the black community that crack was first introduced to them by the cia an accusation which is at least somewhat credible as the cia has been proven to have been involved in international trafficking and sale of cocaine during the same period so in short we may not have proof but we have motive we have opportunity and we have means whatever the cause these policies led directly to the rise of private for-profit prison systems which reagan as a true believer in neoliberal capitalism and the privatization of government services was only too happy to fill at a guaranteed 90 percent occupancy rate things only got worse when a democrat got into power under the clinton crime bill the 90s incarceration rate sword cheered on by the likes of hillary clinton who famously referred to young black men as psychotic super predators today um similar occupancy guarantees continue in virtually every state in the union which means if they can't find criminals to fill that 90 percent occupancy rate they find criminals to find that nine to fill the 90 percent occupancy rate as the number of prisoners exploded the black community in the united states soon found that nearly one third of their entire male population would spend some of their lifetime in these new for-profit beds whether they were whether they were innocent or guilty when when combined with the fact that whites are as likely if not more likely to commit drug crimes and people of color the issue becomes very clear and i can only echo the words of michelle alexander author of the new jim crow mass incarceration in an era of color blank in an era of color blindness when i say the primary targets of the penal systems control can largely be defined by race and i might add not just any race but one specific race bringing about a state of affairs today that she described as quote a racial caste system strikingly similar to the jim crow south americans despite making up 4.4 percent of the world's population have roughly 22 percent of the world's prisoners that's more than we're held in stalin's gulags and for all of our talk about china's creeping authoritarianism and lack of respect for human rights we imprison our own people at nearly six times the rate of the people's republic of china and despite blacks making up only 13 percent of our population they make up the largest chunk 34 percent of our male prison population where they are of course put to work earning literal pays a day staffing call centers and manufacturing thousands of consumer products from stereo equipment to military flak jackets if you see made in america on a product odds are that product was made by a prisoner and odds are that prisoner was black now you may say but but but brett they deserve it they broke the law blacks commit the most crime and if you've been affected like so many have uh by literal neo-nazi propaganda based on a complete inability to read or understand statistics you might quote to me some version of 1350 they're 13 percent of the population but they commit 50 percent of the violent crime and if you are particularly ignorant of the scientific consensus on this issue you might even say that when blacks are killed by law enforcement they are killed in proper proportion to the violent crime that they commit but this is simply not the case to quote nature journal the most cited and respected scientific journal in the western world quote black people fatally shot by police were twice as likely as white people to be unarmed these findings align with many studies published since 2015 suggesting that racial biases do influence police shootings and in a study conducted by economists at texas a and m evaluating 200 million 911 calls white officers dispatched to black neighborhoods fired their guns five times as often as black officers dispatched for similar calls to the same neighborhoods now you can say that this is not a race issue that this is a class issue because of course when you control for poverty poor whites and poor blacks commit violent crime at roughly the same rate which is of course true and there is a 350 percent increase in the likelihood of police killings in areas that suffer from high poverty according to the bureau of justice and statistics poor urban blacks have rates of violence similar to poor urban whites and there is no significant change in the crime rate when you move from rural to urban which is which of course makes sense poor people live in a pressure cooker and when you put people in a pressure cooker they are going to act out you can be mad about that you can wag your finger and say that shouldn't be but that's reality and you need to deal with it people who do not feel represented by the system that governs them feel no need to follow the laws or customs of that system nor should they what's in it for them however when controlling for poverty class differences account for more than 100 percent of the difference between white and latino police killing rates meaning that after adjusting for socioeconomic differences latinos actually have a lower rate of police killing than whites on the other hand class differences account for only 28 percent of the differences between black and white police killing rates so we objectively cannot chalk the increased police killing rates up to poverty alone nor can we chalk them up to an increased crime rate because again these rates in their proper context are roughly equal oftentimes when people don't think very deeply about race they imagine that the race itself prompts the behavior which is to say the state views people of color as inherently unruly because they are inherently unruly but this is simply not the case we usually think about race in terms of skin color and facial features but this is to miss the forest for the trees in her book towards a political philosophy of race dr felguni chef of emory university puts forth the idea that race as we currently understand and practice it is a construct of sovereign power which is to say those who are in charge in a given society are the ones who create race these are the people whose property the state is primarily interested in protecting and protecting from who well from you and me and especially those populations that are perceived to be unruly in the words of cersei lannister anyone who isn't us now you'll note that i've said perceived and that's an important word so pay attention populations that are perceived to be unruly by by the state are targeted by the state the state cannot definitively know who is unruly and who is not until they act just like the state cannot distinguish from someone who's white and someone who's black but looks white enough to pass it's not about what you really are it's about what a cop or a judge thinks you are so if sovereign power thinks that you are unruly well mister you better watch your step and stop being so unruly so when you assign a behavior or a propensity for a behavior to a race you are putting the cart before the horse the reason the state views them as unruly is because it is extremely convenient to view this particular group as unruly because they look different and since oftentimes people who look different come from very far away or have been subject to intense institutional abuse in the past they tend to not have access to valuable property and tend to be underrepresented within the elite ruling class for whom the state deploys its violence in short this misperception becomes a vicious cycle it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy it becomes racism and it leads us to moments like we had last summer now this is a disturbing thought it is much more comforting to imagine that our social institutions are on average functional that important distinctions and decisions like who should be led into the country who should live where how much they should be paid for their work and whether or not they should go to jail or be deprived of their possessions or their life are being made for good and sensible reasons but you heard John Ehrlichman on the position of the Nixon administration obviously humanity American human culture is a work in progress so what's the answer here how do we solve this problem how do we fix the society that from its very inception was in part purposefully designed by stupid cruel and downright evil men men like Richard Nixon Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton stretching all the way back to the founding of us as a nation a nation that I might remind everyone here was built on the purposeful extermination of one race and the enslavement of another that's certainly something I asked myself after the police killed Eric Garner prompting the very first Black Lives Matter march in NYC I asked him as I watched Bloomberg's stop interest harass more Black and Latino men in New York City than the total population of all Black and Latino men in New York City I asked it as I listened to a recording of cops threatening to break a Black teenager's arm for quote being an effing mutt and I'm the one censoring there the cop said the full word just a short distance from my own doorstep in Harlem I asked it last summer as riot swept the nation a powder keg ignited by the murder of George Floyd by thankfully former police officer Derek Chauvin and I'm asking it now the first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem we cannot afford to be cowardly we must admit that uh that this society does indeed undervalue Black lives and we must take steps to remedy that situation no justice no peace can also be read as no justice no peace k n o w as in when true justice is brought about then and only then will peace reign and that is why I support Black lives matter and I've put my body and freedom on the line for them more than once and that's why you should too thank you thank you very much Brenton for that opening statement folks want to let you know we are absolutely pumped this is a 12 hour stream and tonight oh baby you don't want to miss it t-jump and Nathan Thompson will be debating the shape of the earth so we're finally going to get our answer on that topic and also want to remind you that our guests for each debate are linked in the description that includes both Brenton and your nausea thank you so much gentlemen for being with us and oh folks if you're listening to the modern day debate podcast you can also find our links of our guests in the description box for that podcast episode as well and so gentlemen thanks so much the floor is all yours yeah I want to respond but a lot of it didn't really address BLM so like I can pick out some things that might relate to BLM but so so we didn't seem to address BLM directly because what I'm dealing with here is I'm dealing with a history that people are ignorant of the fact of the matter is is that BLM is just the latest in a number of movements that have been created in the United States by the Black community and by people interested in protecting the Black community um specifically to respond to a malicious government targeting of Black people for the purposes of profit can I ask you one can I ask you one question sure okay let's say I go along with you I believe all the things you just said wouldn't it make sense that you would pick out cases that are really strong like cases that could really convert someone that if someone was like police are not killing Black people if you show them this case they'd be like wow the police just ran up and shot this Black guy out of nowhere like you would pick that case right you wouldn't pick a case where there's no real evidence of racism hang on but they do you understand what the thing is is that every one of the major cases is like that a great example would be okay well freddy gray for instance freddy gray was complete yeah freddy gray was completely harmless he was put into a freaking police um patty wagon and they did donuts in the parking lot like until they severed his spine and he died as a direct result of his encounter with the police okay okay but first I don't think there was evidence of racism there was obviously evidence of proceeding police brutality and I think the officers were punished right like I don't I don't know the officers were not punished they got off scot free and then and then you've also got eric garner eric garner in new york um once again well no no not better because you know his spine wasn't severed like freddy gray's freddy gray's not better but yeah but like eric garner in new york which prompted the very first Black Lives Matter march which I attended again he was choked to death for selling cigarettes no this is a wild exaggeration of how things went down dude I've seen the video now no no listen video doesn't tell you everything my man this is what tells you everything so what's your version okay we might have to get into three minute intervals if we if we don't have a little bit more yeah it's fine uh oh okay so what happened with eric garner is he did something illegal like we both agree it probably shouldn't be illegal but it is illegal what he did the police came up to him he resisted arrest taking a big risk he had like uh he had a condition and the chokehold they put on him they have put on hundreds of people and this has never happened before so you can still say it's police brutality you can still make the case the police shouldn't use a chokehold but to say this is evidence of racism it just doesn't fly my guy like please just give me an example where it's really racism and I support you why does it always have to be people who resist arrest who do illegal stuff who have like what do you define as racism that make them die come on man give me a good case what do you design what do you define as racism I want to hear this because I'm very in this context in the context of police versus citizen I would say it's racist if a police officer treats a citizen differently i.e worse because of the color of their skin and you don't think that the police officers put him in a chokehold because he was black they saw him as inherently more violent because we know that they do that because again I had in my opening statement they are five times more likely to deploy their guns in neighborhoods if it's a white officer so statistically speaking objectively speaking they will treat black people worse than white people who commit the same crime they do it judges do it um but you say that has to do with their environment you have to say it has to do with the areas and so not their color well it has to do with both the area no it has to do with both the area they're in and their color and they're in that area a lot of time because of their color because first in the united states black people were here as a captive um enslaved workforce then after they were freed by the civil war they were left without property without backing and then they were subjected to like decades and decades of jim crow abuse and then they were subjected to even after the passage of the civil rights bill of 1968 continued implicit um abuse and then the one third of their um one third of their men were put in prison specifically at 90 guaranteed occupancy rates to exploit their labor again yeah we get back to Eric can we get back to the Eric Gardner case sure but we the thing is is that we can't see Eric the Eric Gardner case as a single isolated incident with no other factors leading up to it the very fact that he was there selling loose cigarettes breaking the law you know the the fact that he was there is because of these uh past economic and political abuses by the state he might have been a well he might have well this would be worse than selling raw cigarettes he might have been a waltz can i ask another question yeah do you think the officer i think he was black actually who choked out Eric Gardner and the police officer who was black do you think that that officer was racist yes or no do you have any evidence for that any reason to believe it doesn't matter because i don't care about what a person is deep down in their heart no think about it like this think about it like this if someone steals your wallet do you care if deep down in their heart they consider themselves a thief or do you just want your wallet back well i obviously want my wallet back but okay so in any case right so i i don't care if deep down in that officer's heart he is a racist or not he's not going to be my best man at my wedding he's not coming in and he's not going to rent an apartment with me i'm not going to have to deal with him on that what i care about is did he do a racist action and choking eric garner to death was a race was a racist action just like putting freddie gray in the back of the freaking patty wagon and running uh uh doughnuts until his spine severed that was a racist action just like derrick chauvin putting his knee on the neck of george floyd until he freaking died that is a racist action and this is a racist all of this stuff uh comes from a long line of awful police history and awful police uh policy towards community of colors that is buoyed by the fact that laws are written and enforced by the state specifically to target them if i could hold on a second i'm i'm jumping in here to mention that we aren't it's not clear given how much time we've used already that we're addressing whether or not black lives matter in particular has done more harm than yeah so we might want to gravitate in that direction so yeah right but i will point out james this is really important because what i'm hearing from yana's is that um black lives matter is responding to incidents that are not racist and the major incident well i'm sorry they can't prove it they can't prove it hold on if you are gentlemen but regardless of like whether or not like there is actual like the debate nonetheless has been about whether or not there is this type of racism versus police brutality or both and like even granting that there is whether or not black lives matter is like done good or bad in regards to that like there's but that's like more of what we're looking for sure yeah so if i if i could if i could have the floor like the thing i'm getting at is if you want to convince me of something you have to give me the evidence if you're telling me it's very hard to prove racism because we can't look into people's hearts okay maybe blm should have focused on the police brutality side because that seems to be way easier to prove but that's like the whole thing that was their from the very beginning their point is specifically that black people are targeted more proportionality than other people so that's why i'm looking at the claim and the claim is weak so if the claim that the police do bad things is a better claim run with death claim okay don't don't don't trouble the well don't poison the well with claiming that officers are racist while we both don't even know if they are and you don't seem to care if they are just talk about the brutality and i probably agree if you have evidence so first off what's really important here is to understand there are two kinds of racism there is the kind of racism that a lot of us were raised uh being taught about which is having negative feelings towards another human being because of their race and usually that's even yeah that that type of personal racism is not the most dangerous and that's not even necessarily what black lives matter is dealing with the issues that black lives matter is is dealing with first is police killings and i want to make that very clear police killings of black men that was their primary thing from the very beginning that's what set off the whole thing but also just the system itself and how the inhuman system the machine of people that is the state that is the justice system in the united states is set up even if the person is not racist if they are acting as a police officer and enforcing racist laws created by racists they are in effect doing racism and that type is much more insidious and more pernicious now a good example of this that i might give you is is freddy gray now again freddy gray was raised are you familiar you're not from the state so are you familiar with redlining yeah i know what it is yeah okay so freddy gray was raised in a an illegal redline department that was run by a slumlord and they kept lead paint on the walls even though it was illegal so freddy gray as a child ate those paint chips like many children do as a result he was brain damaged now as a direct result of being brain damaged one of these symptoms of being poisoned by lead is in inability to think properly to behave in an overly aggressive manner and people who are poisoned by this oftentimes they don't go to college they can't hold down a job etc now he was proved that he was poisoned by that lead and he even won a case he and his sisters all won a lot of money from based upon like from the property management corporation based upon that poisoning as a child but the thing is is that because he was brain damaged he was tricked out of that money by unscrupulous lawyers who tricked him into taking a smaller lump sum payment to take what was rightfully hits and his sisters and that it happens every day again because these people are not educated they are brain damaged and i'm talking specifically about people like raised in that kind of environment all of this led to the perfect storm that eventually led to him having that run in with the cops and then eventually getting his spine severed similarly like ferguson a great example of this is that you want to talk about michael brown because that was the first nonsense case i'm not so michael brown is immaterial because there's a thousand michael brown no no no hold up hold up it's not immaterial because in your introduction you used the word unarmed michael brown was unarmed but he was unarmed really tried to grab a gun of a police officer that's okay so first off that's okay because he was unarmed it's still a killing so first off that's like the the most basic lie police officers tell when they want to get a hold of somebody they think they saw a gun they think the guys resist no no no he didn't say he saw a gun he grabbed his gun that's what he said he said he grabbed his gun now the thing is is that i have actually been arrested i was arrested with occupy wall street and when police officers grab you guys we talked about blm soon yeah like this is the point here is is that police officers lie all the damn time this is no they lie so we do want to bring it back to blm okay well with blm the blm's primary court issue beyond all of the other issues that they talk about is police violence and police killings of black men by officers and you're not as you're taking the police officers at their word when you really know no the whole like i researched the michael brown case and it kick started a lot of blm so the fact that dead was a lie is very important no it's actually not yeah michael brown that we didn't set up a debate on police brutality so we like you know what you're talking about michael brown like it was michael brown and like i we got to go back to the main subject here okay so james i just want to recognize here that his main point against blm is that the big cases that blm has used george floyd um freddy gray michael brown eric garner he's saying they're all lies which is just not the case most of it so okay that's helpful he's saying most of them lies the context so folks in the chat who are trying to make the connection it wasn't clear to me as well but i i get what you're saying now so urnaz urnaz is saying that blm has made things worse by according to urnaz by allegedly basically uh spreading this information basing it on cases that are yeah okay which is sorry guys so again my fault yeah i did it i like i agree with the freddy gray one and i agree with fielendo castillo and i have never seen any right winger say those two cases were great but most of the other cases from michael brown to garner to the last one with the guy with the knife there are so many lies surrounding it and so much racism is being invented to make it to amplify their sound that makes me skeptical and i don't know why someone who has good intentions who really wants to do something about police brutality would would like go along with all these lies just because you believe they're core point so they're not using you one one one i'm gonna point out that they're not lies i mean freaking um the the woman in uh luval um i can't remember her name she was she was shot while sleeping in her bed on a fair yeah brian taylor thank you she was shot while sleeping in her bed how can you say that's not racist okay you want to talk about that case they did shoot at her yeah hold on hold on her boyfriend shot at the cops and the cops shot no no no the cops the cops broke into the home on a no knock raid and yes he did have a gun uh i do not believe that he shot but even if he did shoot at them he was perfectly justified in shooting at them because it was a no knock raid he didn't know who they were they didn't announce themselves so 100 the fact that they targeted her um no they targeted him they didn't talk no it had no it was a hit her they didn't mean to hit her they did not come on so you've got a guy shooting a gun no hang on hang on we're gonna get into the weeds here on this and i don't want to do it especially since people haven't uh fully made this connection you're presenting it i see if the cops wanted to kill her it doesn't matter and then i promise we'll come back and give you a couple minutes look okay you keep using a certain phrase called poisoning the well and this is important here because poisoning the well is literally a a fallacy so let's take your your logic that black lives matter has used bad examples okay let's pretend that that's the case it's not the case it 100 but let's pretend it is um what you are doing here is even if black lives matter has used bad examples that you don't think personally are good examples of racism the fact of the matter is is that statistically they are still right and therefore it is a fallacy to say this time they were wrong and therefore what they talk about is not important every single example that black lives matter uses could be a lie and if they would still be correct because we have the statistical evidence to prove it you cannot be an effective political organization hold on you're not well we know that we know that they're an effective political organization though james we know that they're an effective political organization i have seen things go in the united states from people uh equating like black lives matter with the kkk to black lives matter being one of the biggest and most powerful forces in american politics to seeing uh politicians taking the knee here in the united states and that is specifically because black lives matter has been incredibly effective at getting this out so even if i were to take your premise that they got it out all based on a lie it doesn't matter because the the problem that they are pointing out is real for instance um black men are seven times more likely to be falsely convicted of murder than white men at least seven times more likely again statistical fact so at the we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the police treat black people worse than white people we know beyond the shadow of a doubt the police kill more black people out of proportion to what they to their um their population and we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that the criminal justice system within the united states is set up to imprison black people and exploit them for their labor whether they are guilty or not all right we are going to jump through and ask for about three minutes yeah okay okay so that is the crazy thing like the crazy thing is that if you were right they would have so many cases to choose from there would have been like every day there would be a black guy just shot in his house by the cops like the case you're making you're making it even worse you're saying there are so many cases of black people being killed for no reason that makes it worse that they picked through the least good ones like you're even making it look worse like like my point is there are not enough cases and that's why they're lying you're saying there are so many cases and still they only pick the bad ones like not saying that's the own goal like i am not saying that i'm saying like some of the strongest ones out there and i'm i'm the strongest one so the strongest one they have is is uh george floyd where we have no evidence of racism from chauvin that like that's the best case they have hang on hang on what would you what would you take as as evidence of racism from chauvin i don't know maybe something in his history maybe he used the n word around people give me something like give me something to hang on to so first off give me the lead and have me assume that he's a racist first off you gotta give me more yeah chauvin was known for attacking for attacking people and particularly for attacking black people and they tried to get rid of him they tried to fire in like four different times but the police unions in the united states are so strong it makes it impossible to do that that's why people talk about defund and abolish the police it's not because they don't want someone in like patrolling their neighborhoods not because they don't want police it's because it is impossible to reform the police as long as the police unions hold this stranglehold that keeps psychopathic people psychopathic racist people like chauvin from ever seeing any consequences until it gets this bad point of agreement if you want to get rid of qualified immunity i think police labor unions are way too strong i'm a libertarian we can agree on it but you still really like convince me more because i want to be convinced if it's true because if it's true it's the worst thing ever and we should really stop it but like talk to your people at blm and ask them please be a little bit more critical which casers you're going to bring to the forefront because the better they are the stronger we could use it to convince people look i don't even see how you can say that chauvin is a bad it is a case chauvin was convicted of murder like convicted proven in a state in a court almost impossible to do that with a cop except for absolutely overwhelming evidence that he murdered george floyd for no good reason i think you and me can both agree that just like the oj case this was a very tense one i'm not going to say the thing about it correctly but like it's going to be hard to put this okay but wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute you just brought up the oj case i wasn't going to bring that up but i'm going to point out that you said it would be evidence if they said the n word well freaking um mark firman was like a freaking neo-nazi who said the n word yeah so you're saying that even in the oj case they had better evidence and everyone knew that was bullshit he was still guilty but even then they had better evidence they at least hang on the oj case was about was about whether or not oj simpson was guilty yeah i got away with it because in the united states if you're rich you can do whatever you want but yeah but but the the point is is that right there there was also he was guilty and the police system was racist and was trying to set him up mark firman specifically was trying to set him up and plant evidence and we have evidence that he was racist so there's yeah so yeah so so why put that as a well the point is that even in the oj case even though he was guilty they had stronger evidence of police being racist than in the george floyd case um that's crazy to me one of crazy well again the thing is is that they did have very strong evidence that chauvin was racist you're having there's two it didn't come up with a court case man it didn't come up there are two issues that you're having here one i think you've got a certain degree of ignorance going on about these cases specifically because i my what i'm going off on i think you're just listening to right wing sources that are specifically trying to disprove this now honestly man i i watched too many too much younger than my health can handle so god i'm really into left wing stuff because i want to know how you guys talk so okay but then if you were really into left wing stuff how did you not know about freddy gray no i knew about freddy gray and i never argued the freddy gray case i never said the cops handled correctly in that case i'm not saying there is no police brutality i'm not saying there are not cases that blm could use to amplify their sound that are way better than the george floyd and the gardener case okay so that's my basic point of criticism i don't think they use the right cases so essentially you're saying that if i'm right here you're saying but we already have objective evidence that um the systemic murder and the systemic imprisonment of black men by bad actors within the united states government is happening we know that that's happening right so your your your quibble here is you don't like the cases that have specifically been elevated and dealt with by blm but here's the other thing blm isn't the only force that is elevating those cases the media is what elevates those cases there are so if we look at eric garner for instance um you know that was elevated and blm took that on and kind of rose out of that because we had it on we had on video a guy who was nonviolent being choked to death we saw a freaking snuff film on on video recorded we saw everything he didn't intend to choke him right it they go on lie about that all the time you've got to understand that when i was absolutely ragdoll at occupy wall street being held by the freaking cops i was neat in the spine i was thrown into a motorcycle and the guy who's going to be yelling stop resisting stop resisting stop resisting cops lie if we go back and the thing a lot more okay but this is important because what what's happening here is he's taking cops testimony at face value when when the when the fact is is that they are no more i'd say they are less likely to be honest than the average person particularly in cases where they have been violent i think people i just don't want people are more wanting an explanation from either or both of you on how this ties back to blm itself okay so blm how this ties back to blm the organization and maybe we should get off of this point and move on to another one but like blm the organization is a like they take cases that have already caught fire and they bring them to the forefront now there's important stuff for instance with regard to the ferguson case it's there's there's a very good reason even though they didn't 100 have a choice in what that was going to be about with regard to there's so many of these i get their names all confused michael brown the ferguson police were found by the trump's own justice department to be using dogs like police dogs exclusively to intimidate and terrify only black people no possible white people were threatened with a dog and this goes back to the fact that the ferguson police department was founded as a slave catching organization and after the civil war moved from slave catching to um to to general policing this is actually how every single police precinct in the south with maybe one or two exceptions was founded they were all founded as explicitly racist organizations and one of the tactics that were used by slave patrols was to go after slaves with dogs because they were so terrifying and so the fact of the matter is is that if you've got a police department that the only thing that they're doing is targeting black people with dogs you have proof that that police department is racist beyond beyond the shadow of the doubt whether the individual officers are or not um so how does this tie into blm i think michael brown was a really good example and the fact of the matter is is even if you even if there are issues in that case and you don't believe that and you believe that that shooting and killing of him was justified the fact that they focused on him which gave national focus to ferguson which then led the trump administration the trump administration to investigate them and find this link that proves beyond the shadow of the doubt that they are racist that shows me that blm is doing a really good job of getting this stuff out into the public consciousness in a way that it simply couldn't before because you know i i didn't know about that stuff so okay if i could respond earlier on you talked about the media i fully agreed the media played a major role in this but that's why if blm is sort of a gatekeeper was sort of like a checking organization then they should look at what the media puts out and then judge if the media was right or wrong and if they were a better organization they would have said you know what the michael brown case not really great because it seems like all the evidence points to him attacking the cop so yeah he was unarmed but we don't want to lie to the people let's pick a case where the guy was really unarmed and there's no evidence from him trying to steal the gun i think we could convince way more people when we say that so the thing is it doesn't matter yeah this is the right about the media but okay the lm should still be a better organization if they want to be trustworthy and if you can see the national polls in the us the support for blm is going down it's well yes but also that's because of the riots over the past summer but so definitely we haven't even come to the riots but well this is the thing though because you're misunderstanding like have you ever been in a street protest um i've seen them i don't okay yeah so you haven't been in one okay this is important so this is really key you are acting like the riots that occurred were commanded by blm that every street protest was black lives matter and the black lives matter had control and marching orders over these people who were in the streets who then rioted that's not the case riots are like an almost like a natural disaster it's like a hurricane it come you know people don't get together and say hey we're gonna riot like sometimes they'll they'll get together and they'll try to start a riot which is by the way illegal um but the fact that a riot actually happens is not something that any one person or any group can can control it just happens if i would take your word that blm had no intention of there being riots in black neighborhoods and setting people's houses on fire and their stores okay you know what could have happened there could have been like one riot with auntie fostering shit up and then the second that happened blm could have said you know what we have nothing to do with this we care about the police brutality anyone who likes something on fire don't ever use our name like they could have the notes that they could have said arrest auntie fa like if they were an honest organization that hated riots and didn't want to ruin black people's property they could have said auntie fa get the hell out you are a bunch of racist if you light our houses on fire they could have so i will i will quote martin luther king here a riot is the cry of the unheard i know the quote martin luther king was maybe right then but he ain't right now and he maybe wouldn't have said it now uh the riot of the unheard the language of the unheard stuff right i know it yeah like yeah so basically you're saying riots are good right no yeah riot i'm saying riots are riots exist when you take a population like that and you put them in a pressure cooker you're gonna get riots it's just going to hand you know you know what you know what has i have seen from the beginning of this debate you are very deterministic like you don't seem to believe in free will like you keep saying stuff like when people are poor they're gonna commit crimes when people do this they're gonna riot like stuff happens if you put this and this together no people make decisions people make choices for people record for the record for the way what they want to do like people make choices come on do it yeah for the record i'm the furthest thing from a determinist um in fact i've been wanting to argue against determinism on this uh on this very platform to tell you the truth but my my point is is that of all of the choices that people could make systems will incentivize certain choices by uh either on purpose or by accident as externalities when you take a population and you imprison say one third of the men in that population um what's going to happen is is there is going to be an effect from that you have incentivized a certain number of choices for those men when they come out so for instance you say you're 17 like the guy in my neighborhood you got stop interest you've been harassed by the police your entire life they they quarry you in the other way they make fun of your dad for just being a traffic cop not being a real cop and they tell you that you're they're going to break your arm for being an effing mutt and then maybe later on they they catch you with some pot and they send you to prison then bam suddenly you're in prison which means you're a convicted felon which means you probably can't get a normal job and if they're doing this on the national level uh with programs and laws pushed by presidents specifically to do this so that they can go into these prisons uh and use you for your labor and pay you pennies on the dollar to make flak jackets and electronic equipment and any and american flags and whatever like we were going to you you're going to have a population of people who are more likely to make certain choices okay one question one question if blm after the first spontaneous riot if blm would have said we have nothing to do with this auntie fa get away no one who riots can still join us do you think there would have been more riots or less riots so so first off please answer the question are you i think you're confusing something first right okay if they would have said i don't think you know what auntie fa is is the point so what i would say is if blm would have said if blm wagged their finger and said no well first off blm did denounce rioting in the past they've done it the entire time but the second thing is right what well the thing is again you can't control that when it gets down to the level that these things that would have been more no i don't i don't think it would have had any effect whatsoever on whether or not there would have been riots because again what you have here is a population and a pressure cooker also i should i should add that over the last summer both sides the political aisle wanted riots and i think that's why we saw them more often the biden administration wanted riots because that makes trump look weak to their voters and trump wanted riots because that makes uh his voter base afraid and they were both counting on the on the on the political upheaval to drive out their voters for the election and you know what do you think blm handled do you think blm handled the riots correctly i would say the blm handled the riots to the best of their ability and it seems to me that blm and the biden administration which blm is not in favor of the biden administration but the fact is is that trump didn't win the election um the the fact is is that we now have um you know abolish the police and that that is now a major mainstream issue and we have high-end politicians you know taking the knee that specifically shows that they did get their message out and that those riots and everything else overall has moved the country into position where someone where a murderer like derrick chauvin can actually be convicted i guarantee you that if the case of derrick chauvin if he had murdered and everything had been exactly the same and it was 2012 i bet you 99 chance he would have walked free but the the fact of the matter is is that blm has done such a good a good job of getting this critique of the system out there of making people aware of these issues that finally police officers are finally for once beginning to suffer even a tiny amount of pushback when they you know murder people you just brought up abolish the police that is another thing that blm has initiated that will do more harm than good for black people because who needs to be the yeah who needs to be the most innocent don't understand the policies the most you guys are you perfectly trying to talk at the same time okay so you know we're doing that thing where one guy tries to go left and the other one goes left with him we're just stuck there that's a good analog so yeah can i go yeah go innocent black people people own innocent black people owning a store they need police the most yelling abolish the police will protect them less so from their perspective blm is still doing them more harm than good i'm gonna give you an example of the overton wind are you familiar with the concept of the overton window i'm a political scientist okay so you are aware of that so the fact is is that um in the united states in particular radical arguments particularly radical left arguments were almost completely removed from the equation when it came to political speech and what it was they were so far off in the unthinkable that people weren't able to judge it properly and i'll give you a perfect example is malcolm x versus martin luther king i am going to contend that if malcolm x had not existed made that radical argument um that he made martin luther king would have been treated as though he was malcolm x and that he wouldn't the the fact is is that you need that radical argument you need that that that fence supposed to throw out there to start the conversation and pull the overton window in the general direction we abolish the police let's get this straight abolish the police is not going to abolish the police at best and this is what the abolish the police are arguing for is that we should do what was done like for instance in camden new jersey where you abolish the police department you get rid of the people who cannot be prosecuted because like the bad officers that can't fire because the police unions and then you rebuild the police you get a new institution that keeps the good of the uh and you are actually able to reform this that's what defund and abolish is about it's not actually about like getting rid of the police and replacing nothing a little advice as a political spin doctor why don't you say stop police brutality or reform police and don't say they did say that yeah but this is a thing they did say that and they were treated as though they were saying abolish the police so if you've got one group yeah if so if you've got one group of people that's sitting there and making a radical a very radical argument and you have another group of people that is making a more central argument what will happen is is that the policy will naturally gravitate towards the people who are making the less radical argument so okay yeah so you're familiar you're familiar with the furguson effect right um i believe so refresh my memory with the furguson well i think it's the idea that after the michael brown case police were more hesitant to maybe sometime shoot or interact because they wanted to don't want to be seen as racist or whatever and that according to people who studied it they say has a negative effect on the black people living in the neighborhood because they're not going to be helped as much as before so you know it doesn't happen but i would have to see the actual research on that i'd have to see who's doing it um and like so if you can send me a study about that i'll take a look at it but again i think it's probably for the best police officers back off a little bit because they have one our police system is incredibly militarized at this point um there and they are treating because they're you know armed with military grade weapons and they're given like you know freaking tanks and stuff to patrol the streets what's what happens is is that that is setting a very um occupying force uh feeling between them and the community so i would be like i'm totally with you if like this would stop crazy police officers from doing crazy stuff like i would agree with you but if you look at the makia bryant case where the officer acted perfectly and saved a black girl's life he will still be targeted as if like he killed a black girl so like i hope you're right that it would have the effect that only the crazy cops don't want to crazy stuff anymore but i'm afraid it will have the effect that good cops won't even do good things because they're still going to be branded a killer because the the person they shot happened to be black even though the person they saved is also black yeah like do you see where i'm getting at so i i can see people i understand this worry of yours yeah but i think that the problem of police imprisoning and murdering black men is so bad at this point that even if you do have the double effect where good cops are reluctant to act overall you're going to have more of a push towards reform to deal with these bad cops and overall you're going to see that the the communities which are now overpoliced are going once they get that boot off their throat they they are going to move in a more positive direction even if there are some externalities sometimes where a good cop should have acted but didn't okay i got another question yeah sure i got another question for you do you think that if you're a good guy in the u.s and let's say you're white and you're a good guy and you want to be a cop right do you think that what happened in the last year and like the response to the mickey abray in case do you think someone like that is more or less likely to join the police force if he knows that even if i shoot a black person holding a knife trying to kill another black person i still might get dead threats get fired get sued like it's not attractive like you're gonna get even worse cops i'm afraid so you're gonna lose the good guys because they're like it's not worth it to me even if i save a black life i'm still going to be like some like cop killer with a badge right so that's what blm should be working towards like not having that image so it's more attractive to be a cop if you're not a cycle because so hang on you think blm should be doing public relations for the police blm should to take the notice of the mickey abray in case and say unequivocally this is good that this happened if you have a knife and you're trying to kill someone it's good that the cops shoot you also if you're black if they would have said that you take a lot of tension out of the air but if you use mickey abray it as another slaying black innocent queen yeah come on you're losing me you're losing a lot of white people you're just going to take your a bunch of marxist that doesn't help either we haven't even gotten into that one but like it's just bad marketing man like i mean what i'm going to point out is it but the thing is is that we can objectively look at what's happened with these issues and with the discourse over recent years and if this is your idea of bad marketing like blm is winning they've been winning really big trump what again trump was not reelected chauvin was convicted we have abolished the police out there we have all of these issues so clearly they are doing a really good job like they could they'd be doing a better job yeah probably anybody could be doing a better job at any point in time but it seems to me that like once like the very fact that we're having this debate right now is the evidence of what a good job they are doing listen man almost everybody is against police brutality if blm would have played their cards right they would have been at like 85 percent approval 90 percent like they're not near those numbers so we could say that they were successful in their efforts but so almost everyone no no i'm sorry not almost everyone i would say about 25 percent of the of the country is explicitly for police brutality and i will say that as trump voters are for police brutality they don't say it in those terms because when you say someone's like do you like police brutality brutality is an inherently a bad thing so you've got that there but when you have people voting for somebody like trump when you've got trump having this huge support from all of the police unions um and people celebrating the police and putting up those um thin blue line flags those people are saying i am for police brutality i want the police to go in okay no yeah listen i'm on the right side of guys i i i am just because i do know that people are going to want to talk about even though this is interesting like the the blue line uh it's like a controversial juicy and related thing but nonetheless i think people are like well it's a direct response to to to black lives matter like those those flags were not being sold until after the first black lives matter march sure and maybe hold on one sec one sec just so we can get on the they like i'm not taking any stances like theoretically maybe the the blue line stuff is like a terrible evil organized it but it but that's a different question from whether or not blm is doing more harm than good so just the right it is juicy to hear about the riots what are the alleged riots i i mean brenton i don't know if you would yeah well no i mean there there were riots there were riots riots are when lightning hits the right spot um and like you will see what's very interesting to me about the riots i watched the coverage of the riots over the summer which uh and then i also remember the coverage of occupy wall street um and i was even like arguing with destiny about this that the riot like he was like well if they were just doing what occupy wall street had done i remember when we were accused of being violent rioters in just the same way the media hit the same kind of spin on what occupy was doing which was almost entirely peaceful to the they they've got the the the pedal of disapproval all the way on the floor right now when it comes to riots they had it all the way to the floor at occupy wall street and they've got it all the way to the floor um with blm over the over the past summer and the thing is is that over the past summer it was much much more violent more property destruction people got hit people got killed nobody got killed at occupy um but the the fact is is that again this is my point if mal if malcomax had not existed martin luther king would have been treated exactly as though he were malcomax and you can even see this there's an old political cartoon um from from the period where martin luther king is standing there saying like oh uh we plan to have another peaceful um demonstration tomorrow and behind him the political cartoon is to draw on everything burnt down from a riot because the the response is exactly the same from the right regardless of what actually happened and so i think that's really really important to note and again i think about 25 percent of this pop of the united states population is for um police having the ability to act with impunity when it comes to enforcing the law or what they see as the law i think there's a lot of bootlickers out there yeah like like the thing about the riots is like there's a big difference between lighting up a police station because your point is the cops that work here are racist like that connects to way more people than we're stealing sneakers now yeah so in terms of how you present yourself that's like almost the worst thing you could do if they only book out cop cars like people wouldn't say it's great but people would be like well they did take out the police the one organization they said was bad they didn't like take our stuff like they would still be condemned but it would have a different you're thinking about this like it's one person like it's not this the people that uh for instance um burn the police station are not the people that stole the sneakers the there's there's thousands of thousands of people like if we're talking about organizations involved in this if we're talking about blm if we're talking about blm i'm talking about their response and how they incentivized and cultivated those riots and kind of said you know what martin luther king language of the unheard like they were basically saying yeah what are you gonna do and you're basically saying yeah what are you gonna do you know people feel bad they feel oppressed riots happen so i'm not saying what are you gonna do i think i know exactly what you're gonna do about that you're going to change the policies towards these communities you know again what you need to do and i said this before no justice no peace k and o w we need to have actual justice with regard to the black community we need to stop policing them so hard we need to stop falsely imprisoning them we need to stop uh you know once again if you are a black man convicted of murder you are seven times more likely to be innocent than a white man convicted of murder that is really messed up you know and again that's only scratching the surface there so if you want to see these riots not happen what we need to do is we need to one take care of the black community financially two we need to take care of the black community politically which means don't um you know don't over police them and three we need to take care of the black community ideologically i mean freaking um just with the taking the knee you saw how the country initially reacted to that and to be clear he took the knee because a veteran had said it would be more respectful to the military than to simply sit or stay in the in the in the um in the room but they turned that taking the knee into a horrible offense because even the tiniest bit of criticism even if it's respectful uh like taking the knee is enough to drive some of these people absolutely insane listen it's it's hard for me to respond to that because it's really tied in with how you guys view the flag and i have an opinion on it but you know i'm not that's culturally if you don't say you don't stand the magical cloth won't freedom like i can i can see that i can see the reason like i wouldn't kneel for like the dutch or the sternum flag because i respect them both but it's it's kind of hard for me to get into the american flag debate yeah well the point is not the american flag debate the the flag is external to this um the the point in the debate is how american culture views black people and it seems like and not just americans in general but also american institutions the prison cops view black people as a threat to life in lim particularly black males i mean that's borne out by the data um the american institutions view black people either as the political enemies of powerful politicians like richard nixon again ehrlichman admitted that or uh the other way that they view them as as a potential resource to fill that 90 guaranteed um uh you know filled beds within uh these private prisons that operate for profit so what you've got here is you've got the institutions viewing black people as dangerous and as an important resource and then that leads to where we've got you know 22 of the world's prisoners with 4 of the world's population um so you know this is really really important for people to understand that all of these issues are interconnected um and and this and part of the reason why we are just now becoming aware of it is because black lives matter has been so successful okay let me just let me just say this so a lot of the things you address like for-profit prisons and i don't know have people have a good lawyer when you know they're arrested for having a bag of weed and all that stuff like we can talk man like i'm not a lefty but i don't want people being imprisoned if all they did was smoke weed like i don't see the reason behind that so so like i really think you can gain a lot of common ground with libertarians and not all but definitely some republicans and i would just advise you i think it's you can do that better by for instance acknowledging when a good cop saves a black life and saying this is a good case don't attack this cop this is what we want to see from police officers when they come into our neighborhoods and on the other side when there's a case that doesn't get it's not up to the standard just say you know what we're going to pick one where we're like a hundred percent sure it's a bull's eye because we don't want to poison the debate anymore like maybe it's too idealistic but like that's how i view it as a black guy in europe just as a political scientist being on the right side but still not wanting the police to have like immunity to kill people like why would i i don't like to state particularly like i'm not an anarchist but i'm you know i'm rent a minarchist if you could say so yeah not that far so like maybe there's some common ground just think about what i said about the messaging i mean i definitely will keep in mind i'm not blm i'm not a smart person for them you know personally i have taken a variety of positions on police killing cases including one where you know i'm not even going to get into that because it's completely outside of the realm of this debate but suffice to say um i i think that we are kind of doing the the armchair quarterbacking at this point and what you've also got to remember is that no matter what case blm picks the right wing media machine will poke as many holes in it as possible and present it in the worst light possible it doesn't matter you know if you've got a great example again woman shot while sleeping at her bed you blame her for it no i didn't blame her come on don't be you well you said he was for yeah yeah but you said yeah so you blamed her boyfriend who acted exactly perfectly rational as to what happens when somebody breaks in your door in the middle of the night with weapons like and you don't know who they are because again the police did not announce themselves it was a no knock rate he didn't know they were police could have been anyone and he was also asleep at the time i just want to say that on the right side there are also a lot of people who are still critical so if you would present me with a case where i could consider the racism or the brutality to be so evident even if the right would go along with it i would tell right wingers don't go along with this one because this one is correct like fernando castillo like i never went against fernando castillo like everyone like from ben shapiro like everyone says fernando castillo is terrible so like if your case is really convincing you can get the biggest people on the right to agree with you i'm going to disagree with that because again these people are their positions are mostly ad hoc you know ben shapiro may pick an occasional case but he's not a good faith actor i would in fact i'd say just about every pundit right or left is not a good faith actor even if we are convinced he's not a good faith actor you cannot deny that he has influence and if ben shapiro is willing to go on the arbery case and and the freddy gray case i think and the castillo case and say you know what those three are really bad like that's a profit for blm like blm needs sure to gain ground in the culture but all but also what i'm gonna point out is you've got somebody you're essentially saying that blm needs to tailor their message to speak to the most reactionary people out there to the absolute worst racist of the worst like ben shapiro i'm saying this i'm saying if there is an abundance of cases as you claim of black men being killed for no reason you should definitely be able to select like five a year and are so strong even ben shapiro and candles always are like yeah but even then even if you so even if you did that even if you did this this thing exactly the way that you say first off there's going to be people who are going to lie about it and try to take it down in just the same way and cast as much doubt on it as possible i agree a good example um so it will give you the impression that they're picking people that aren't good simply because the right wing media machine has done its work and to try to convince everybody that you know but the good people on the right will not be able to withstand the pressure if the evidence is so clear and they would say you know what guys let's just you know i have a bad case again i think you think people are more rational than they actually are especially people on the right and i will point to the fact that you know trump uh you know he is objectively a mass murderer in that he allowed co vid to kill hundreds of thousands of people otherwise let's not get into that yeah but but but even with that even with crashing the economy and even with co vid he had a higher percentage of republicans voting for him this time around than the last time the the fact is there are a lot of people simply think yeah yeah so now there is something that you brought up that i wanted to kind of talk about here um and this is that you brought up that BLM is a marxist organization now can you please elaborate because i i know that there are marxists involved with BLM because marxists are political they're involved in the left you know in the same way that anarchists are and everybody else um and you know just all the way down to like regular old liberals and progressives so what is your beef one if BLM is a marxist organization i mean i know yeah injectivists aren't fond of marxists but like what is so into that a little bit more yeah so first off obviously you're free to be a marxist and we could still agree on police brutality and i'm not a marxist for the record yeah yeah you can oh you're also free to tell people you're a marxist and still want them to support your police and police brutality thing but i think at least two leading figures of BLM have admitted to being trained marxists or like yeah so was rosa parks the patrice coulors i think is one of them so but again rosa rosa parks was a trained marxist okay yeah as i said if the case is correct the case is correct so i i agree with you if the marxists were right on every case i would still agree with them on this point but i do not think it helps your case if you have shaky cases and you have the black fist and you allude to marxism and you talk about taking away people's property and then there are riots where people's property is being laid up it doesn't really help with the messaging that you're a peaceful organization right you get me so the first thing that you need to understand is that um you know the communist cpusa and a number of other communist parties they have long time because of what marxists are interested in you know which is protecting the most vulnerable people in society and raising them up uh like marxism has been tied in with like black liberation for a really long time individual people who are marxists in blm fine even if they're leaders it doesn't make blm a marxist organization yeah so i think it's unfair to characterize the organization like like that now there'll be some things like in one blm website somebody once um said something like along the fact that they said that they want to do abolish the traditional family now this is not good messaging in my opinion but this again just like the problem with when people hear um like uh abolish the police they don't actually realize what it is they just hear the slogan and go with what's in their head as opposed to what it actually is politically um similar things happen with like phrases like abolish the family uh the fact is is that the nuclear family in the 1950s was a product of the nuclear age hence nuclear that's why they compared it to an atom because it was the freaking fifties and everybody was up about the atom bomb that is not the traditional family that humans have lived in um so when blm has on their website that they want to um oppose the traditional family it specifically says that they want to go back to more extended families and clan based families and the thing is is that that is actually the more conservative position because that's how humans have tended to live for the longest time but these reactionaries just simply see that and they flip out and they think that these people are secret communists like red baiting is is huge in the right and they will tar and feather any individual they can get a hold of and call them a marxist whether it's freaking obama or um bernie sanders like it doesn't matter they always say they're a marxist okay but like like this claim about saying that people are communist falsely and then mentioning bernie sanders as an example bernie sanders is not a communist no but like come on like you cannot say no no here's no here's what bernie sanders is politically bernie sanders is a sock den he's a social democrat he's not even a socialist but he's also smart enough as a politician to know that no matter what he says if he says i'm not a socialist the people on the right will say yes you are you're lying so all he did was he very brilliantly got ahead of it and told everybody he was a socialist and a democratic socialist and it's a new thing and he pulled the discussion to the left now i think that's a really good thing because i think american politics are way way too far to the right overall um but but the fact is is that bernie does not actually advance any socialist policies he doesn't want for instance any worker control of the means of production and most he'll talk about voluntary co-ops as opposed to the government seizing like actual capital and giving it to the workers so similarly there's a lot of red baiting going on and then secondly you know yeah are there marxists involved with a leftist political organization absolutely because marxist marxism it's a small force but they are very political and they're involved in a lot of organizations and like there's not i don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that um rosa parks again trained marxist rosa parks is also one of the greatest you know humanitarians in the world who changed the way that we think about a lot of things so and she is rightly lionized for that so i i really feel like bringing up the marxism in blm is a bit of an attempt to grapple on to 1950s government propaganda related specifically to the red hold on hold on if people tell me they're trained marxists like i'm going to believe what they tell me i didn't make up that quote right sure sure but and i don't have a problem believing that some people who work with no the founders not some people like even if they're the founders that yeah a guy who walked along a blm rally or something like yeah come on okay so here's the thing and i this is probably because you haven't talked to a lot of marxists um marxists like when you talk to them you know it's a freaking marxist really fast because they got sticks up their butts and they talk about stuff like dialectical materialism like you know if you understand like and you run in these circles on the far left you would know that blm is not a marxist organization it's not malice like the black panthers were the original black panthers and you know again black panthers were explicitly a malice organization they were also a really effective great organization you know so um the idea that blm might be marxist i don't think even if it were true it wouldn't necessarily be a slight against them but even if it were a slight against them like they it's not a marxist organization okay okay as a final maybe a rebuttal i agree with you that technically them being marxist or their founders being marxist does not invalidate their entire case i'm looking at this as a political scientist and i'm looking at messaging and marketing and if your goal was to convince everyone in the country but it doesn't have anything to do with marxism i wouldn't bring up the marxism but that's just me can i hear something as a political scientist i'd like to hear some statistical evidence from you or some say that proves that they're not that blm is not doing a good job of getting this out because from everything we've said in this debate it seems like they're doing an absolutely phenomenal job of getting their message across i am making political change i actually think the media does a lot of the work for them and you were correct in in pointing that out i i think myself as as one example obviously i'm not the norm but i'm one example of a person who is actually black who would agree with them if i was convinced they were telling the truth but because of the combination of the marxism and the riots and the lying and using makia Bryant as another slain victim while she was guilty i'm turned off and i'm sure there are more black people that don't agree with the core of what you're trying to achieve but they're gonna log out and i'm sure there are a lot of white people who would agree to the exact same things but are like you know what i want to support them but if i keep finding out that the cop shot the guy with the knife trying to kill the girl like there is going to be a point where people are going to log out and you see the numbers going down into us i agree with you it's still a high number so maybe in like a relative sense they are successful but maybe in a potential sense they lost a lot of ground they could have gained that's always hard to determine yeah but again you have to understand so this may be just simply because you're not an american and so you know you were not raised in a culture that was built on the extermination of one race and the enslavement of another like the the systems of white supremacy like from the very beginning from america's original sin that is built into our political structure whether the individuals who act within that political structure are racist themselves or not if you are a non-racist cop for instance and you are enforcing a drug law against a black person you are doing racism like because those laws were put in place specifically to target them and to allow the police to attack them to break up their meetings to jail their leaders so we have no we have no disagreement on any of these laws if you could point to me a law that is racist i am not gonna object like like i'm gonna agree with you as a libertarian if you can find me a racist law i'm for taking it down and someone like Shapiro even though you think he's bad faith even though you might think he's a racist believe me it's very hard for him if it's in written in law and it's racist and you can prove it it's going to be very hard for him to tell his audience no people nothing going on if you can apply that pressure you're gonna gain ground maybe i'm too idealistic you could be correct i'm just trying to look at the most effective way of presenting solutions yeah absolutely but i will point out we still haven't seen i'm getting anecdotal stuff from you and the most that you've done so far is you've appealed to supposedly support for BLM coming down well supposedly they did they researched it it's not like someone supposed it only right well yeah but again i'm i'm giving you the study you're not giving me the percentages you know i'm just taking it i'm taking you at your word that this is something that's happened i think we both saw those news uh we both saw the news about it right i don't watch the news specifically i avoid the news i would assume that you would have heard about the national polls on BLM like i'm sorry there's lots of yeah there's lots of and i believe that it did i just again support for a specific policy is going to go up and down and up and down throughout as that i mean that's just the political process a great example you know might be gay marriage you know uh just back when i was in college it was freaking outlawed and most of the country was against it and then you know through the obama years obama pretended because he's got no yeah obama just basically he is much more self-interested than a lot of people think um but you know he pretended like he had serious spiritual issues with gay marriage until it was politically convenient i think the only person that took longer to turn around on gay marriage was hillary clinton and again because she looked at the polls but the polls changed and once they changed the whole country flipped and by the time donald trump got into office he couldn't roll back the clock even on gay marriage um and the the thing is is that that same process is happening with BLM that same process is happening with you know trans liberation any kind of civil rights will go through periods where the popularity goes up and down with regard to the news cycle and the events and what happens it's just you know that that's that's just politics as is so i think you might be looking at a more isolated data point but i think the further we go the more um black lives matters position is going to uh make sense in much the same way that i can talk about the um the the the black panthers again literal Maoist organization original black panthers by the way the new one's a very racist um but the original black panthers i can talk about them in a positive light whereas if i talked about the black panthers in a positive light when the black panthers were doing their stuff i would be in danger of losing my job and all of my friends with the house of unamerican activities committee and you know the freaking fbi killed fred hampton in his bed and by the way said you know the n words dead afterwards so the just like we saw the radical position of the black panthers in the 60s suddenly become much closer to the acceptable mainstream position now in you know 2020 uh 2021 um uh we're going to see as time continues black lives matters position is going to move closer and closer to the political center the vibe i'm getting from you is uh the the ends justify the means is that correct no no i'm not saying that means i'm saying so like if something bad happens along the road to a better world that bad thing still happened but if we're judging a movement an entire movement success and ability what we need to look at is all of the data as far as you know the overall trend versus focusing too much on any one data point we don't want to miss the forest for the trees okay so hold on so if i could give you a poll that says the support for BLM has gone down to five percent of the population it's not true but if i were to present you with such a poll would you then agree with me i would say i don't know if i'd agree with you overall but what i would say was if that poll was representative and if we were able to replicate that poll several times it seemed to actually be representative of where i would say there would there was a serious public relations problem going on there that was that needed fixing most likely okay because yeah because if that was that number would only matter in the sense of are they being successful but it wouldn't change anything about how i think they acted right but the debates are they yeah but the debate is do they do more harm than good um i suppose yeah so but i think there is something more than just the polls that if your organization that is becoming more influential every year we're going to assume right having such a poor basis like having lied so much in the first couple of years about the first big cases again i don't think they lied yeah but okay i'm presenting you this vision i think that's going to bite them in the in the in the future because you saw how it bit them in the ass with the makia brian case because they were like stuck in the corner because either they were going to say the cop handled right and then maybe right wingers would have said oh but hold on michael brown tried to take his cop so you're saying the michael brown killing was all right so they felt trapped they were like we've been lying so much we might as well lie now and say he just shot another innocent black girl so now like they're they're stuck in this in this hole but even even if it's i mean again i would have to look at their i would have to look at their response to that and if there has been a follow-up they put it on the website they put the makia brian case on the website yeah this thing i'm not familiar with makia brian case that's the one with the knife yes he was shot yeah i remember vaguely hearing about it but like i didn't like go in i would need to study this in depth and study their reaction to give you an informed response to whether they were in the right or wrong so my theory is uh if you lie in the beginning even if you think the ends justify the means or even if you think you're doing more you you're you're implying a lie hang on hang on you're implying a lie so even if let's say for instance that we do you're lying you're just wrong you're not as well uh do you guys yeah brunton and uh you're not as if you feel that the time has been well balanced in terms of how much you've gotten to feel like that do you you guys feel good about that i i really kind of say i want to make sure you guys i'm fine but you're not as if you if you want to if i'm interrupting you too much if you want to say something go how many hours time do we have left so we've got just a few minutes before we go into the q and a so now is actually like a pretty good time where drawing together the threads from this discussion is good as well okay so maybe i could do like a final thing and then is that okay let's see yeah that's fine with me if you do a 51 and then we can do the same for brent yeah so uh let's just pick it off where i left off so this is my this is my analysis if an organization so it starts out by not telling the truth about some major cases in the beginning of their rise and their influence it's going to box them into a corner and it's going to come a point where they need to switch it up they need to either say we're done with riots and every new case is going to be totally legit and they take some accountability or they keep on lying and i'm afraid that's what's going to happen to BLM that even a couple of good things they brought across are going to be drowned out but all the times they have to they feel the need that they have to lie about good policemen so i just think they poison themselves in the long run they are somewhat effective i can't agree with you partly on that i just think their potential is way bigger because i think way more people agree with the core of their grievances and they don't help themselves by amplifying wrong cases yeah and what i'll say is um having watched and been involved to a to a small extent with BLM you know from the very beginning like i was there at the million hoodies march after trevon martin was murdered i was there in the street with occupy wall street i was there in solidarity with them uh at the very first black lives matter march ever in new york city which was one of the biggest marches they'd had since like n 17 um and watching the way the culture responded to them and the reaction to um all of this awful stuff coming out about the police in general um with and to be very clear the police are incredibly violent and kill a lot of white people as well for similarly bad reasons not at the same rate but but it's there um having watched this and also you know having watched activists um you know continue to mainstream these issues uh and being educated reasonably educated on um the overall problems of uh that the black community faces specifically because of their race both political problems social problems and economic problems um you know part of the reason i was able to tell you about what john ehrlichman did um part you know about what the nixon white house did to them part of the reason why i was able to make the connection between the lead paint the between red lining and and lead paint and freddy gray to the time that freddy gray was killed by those police officers uh in the back of that van during the rough ride that is in a lot of ways most likely i can't draw a exact line but that's in a lot of ways because of black lives matter because they've been able to draw time as you're you're not aside if you are you will i'll i'll i'll wrap it up so so the the point is is that we are at a crossroads here where we are finally making some serious progress probably the most progress we've seen since um the civil rights act of 1964 uh 1968 um but we need to keep moving and i think black lives matter as an organization is going to continue to be a major linchpin in this particular form of the civil rights struggle thank you thank you very much gentlemen our guests are linked in the description folks so if you want to hear more or read more you certainly can by clicking on those links and also folks if you didn't know this is a 12 hour live stream we have two more debates to go after this one and this one we're just getting into the q and a so we have plenty of juicy questions coming in that we're excited to ask the speakers but do want to let you know we'll be here i in particular will be here all day so i hope you peek in throughout the day if you have to do errands or whatever else it is don't worry we'll still be here and you can always tune back in throughout the day so thanks so much for your first question this one coming in from logical oh that's not it to oh you know what one let me just get this organized i'm realizing that it updates the thumbnail in the creator studio so it makes it harder for me to see where to start thank you very much if you your question this one coming in from hake of the hake report thank you very much says brianna taylor was not shot sleeping in her bed police knocked and announced when they should not have no that's a lie they did not knock on an ass it was a no knock raid it's one of the major reasons why no knock raids are currently like being repealed throughout the country um she was it was specifically a no knock raid gosh and this one coming in from madhouse nco says not even all black people support vlm that should tell everybody something stop resisting arrest why would all any group of people think with a single mind like no nobody does that there's always going to be a disagreement with regard to as much as from what should we have for dinner to what this political organization is just because not all black people support it doesn't mean they're not overall supported by the black community gotcha and thank you very much for your question coming in from hake of the hake report says zero evidence that derrick chauvin was quote-unquote racist blm is yeah okay again this i think he's just playing with the definition of racism here and whether he the job of the court was not to find out whether he was racist or not it was to find out if he was a murderer and he absolutely was a murderer and i think you know to tell you the truth um that particular murder race played into such a great degree that i think they probably could not have won that case had the perception that he acted unfairly towards uh uh george floyd not been there so i think in a way the murder conviction while it wasn't officially a your racist it was your a murderer and also yeah you're probably a racist murderer gotcha and thank you very much for this one from hake says it was a no-knock raid but they did knock and announce and that's why the neighbor yelled at them yeah okay again even if they did knock and announce the people were sleeping at the time they didn't give adequate um knowledge on it and even if we do say that they're not lying which by the way i think they're probably just lying about that um be because again even if the neighbor is saying they had heard something or yelled at them to be quiet eyewitnesses don't usually remember events exactly how they happened it's it's one of the least reliable things that we can have they busted into a woman's uh house in like the middle of the night and shot her dead while she was in her bed like that's completely unacceptable on every level whether they uh happened to hey please bang or if it was just bang either way like that's not how one of those situations should ever be okay but hold up hold up if they knocked and they told him police and he shot at them do you still blame them for shooting at him and then accidentally hitting her are you still gonna call them killers like come on i well killers yes they literally did kill someone so yes if you kill someone you are a killer regardless of the reasons beyond it but like if they said police and he woke up and shot at them what then i would say they were still more in the wrong than he was wow yeah and here here's why let me explain so here's why if you are a law enforcement organization with people who are trained to trained to arrest people and to kill people and you've got your officers there with their body armor and they are all backed up it is on you to take extra precautions to make sure that something like that doesn't happen we should always see officers should be in more danger than in the people that they are uh supposedly protecting because again that's sort of the job there we can't afford to have our police officers so you think so you think it's aggression if the police shoot back i don't want to try to arrest again i don't care i don't really care about aggression in this instance that's not the problem the problem is yeah the problem is they went to force far too quickly and they also um did not adequately announce themselves so even if they knocked on the door imagine you're sleeping in bed and you hear a big heavy knock at the door and a loud man yelling you're getting up you're groggy you don't know you probably can't hear that well what was that was i dreaming it oh no there's someone coming in my door bang bang bang okay yeah hold on we don't have a question you're conveniently leaving you're conveniently leaving i want to do your not as i promise i'll give you a chance to you guys for this is a related question on the same topic hake said rihanna's body was in the hallway not the bed whatever you know like i said whether she was shot in the hallway or shot in the bed it doesn't matter again these are yes it does no it doesn't because these are people who created the narrative that the cops were just shooting at an empty at a bed where a woman was sleeping because they wanted to kill her whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa hang on hang on i didn't say anything about them wanting to kill her i didn't say anything at all about them wanting to kill her fine fine um i i again i think what happened there was you had a bunch of people who were gung ho and thought they were soldiers and there's a big thing to go on like really what you need to look up like is this guy who has been training police officers all over the country who claims he's an expert in killology and is literally trains police officers to go for their guns first like not exactly like that but like okay but but dude listen listen you're leaving out the context that this guy is a violent drug dealer if you know he's not a violent drug dealer her ex-boyfriend was a drug dealer and also keep in mind what are you saying you're talking about again a violent drug dealer jeez why would drugs get violent oh right the war on drugs started by nixon for racist reasons like come on it's it is talking about no we're talking about if you're a drug dealer and you hear people but the guy was no the boyfriend you know what's coming like the guy yeah but hang on the guy was not a drug dealer okay first off he was not it was her ex-boyfriend who was a drug dealer um was the address yes and you know what if you're sitting there in bed with your uh with your new girlfriend you know that her ex-boyfriend was a drug dealer and probably was violent and suddenly there's yelling at your door and the door gets knocked in your you may start shooting because hey maybe it's that guy maybe it's him coming back for revenge or whatever we do have one from jesse yes they say briana her boyfriend and her boyfriend were awake the cops fired at them after her boyfriend reacted in self-defense actual justice warrior has the complete story the actual justice warriors and not see screwing let's not do what a great argument what a great argument no you know the thing is is that again like these people are liars and and that's the point like they'll they'll give you a specifically politically motivated story an actual justice warrior is a propagandist he's going to lie to you he's not here to defend himself so it's very seriously let's not talk about him when he's not here to defend himself fair enough the this one coming in from do appreciate your question rising power says the debate was over after brenton's intro which was well composed and backed up by historical and statistical evidence future debaters raise the bar to brenton well you got a fan out there brenton and you know i have to give i want to say thank you huge thank you we've got more questions don't worry but want to say huge thank you to our guests we do appreciate the speakers and want to remind you i know it's a fiery topic please do attack the arguments folks instead of the person that means a lot and then medusa nco says all this cop hate go live where there aren't any um okay so i did that actually i lived both where there were a bunch of cops like and where there were not a bunch of cops when i lived in manhattan new york city full of cops the cops were the primary threat to life and limb not not for me as much but still dealing with the nypd oftentimes is like dealing with a rabid dog like you really don't know what they're going to do and it gets even worse for people who are in minorities and particularly when i was there at the height of stop and frisk and i lived where there were no cops on the appellation trail because there's no cops freaking 40 miles out into the woods and i was safer there than i've ever been at any other point in my life and again part of the reason is is cops it's very important for people to remember everybody in the united states are really afraid of terrorists but the fact of the matter is you are more likely to be shot and killed by a cop than by a terrorist you're actually yeah well terrorists you're more likely to be killed by your own furniture but the point is is that the police force is a genuine threat to the health and safety of the american citizen not all of us not all the time not all of them but yeah cider and port says to stay here they say we don't pick the people that blm use you do as soon as you demonize or villainize a black person then blm has their back you chose the people that blm uses not us props to brenton yeah i i don't think it's your nas yeah like i don't you want to respond you're not well i like the what does he mean i'm choosing the cases like like yeah he's using you as a stand-in for the right wing media for for reactionary me like i don't think you individually chose those cases but you know uh it's a good point that every time like a black person is killed by the police there's that we don't need no fence friends but i was just gonna say we don't add too much on to it because i i still want to give you a chance to respond to this if you want do you get well i i actually think i actually think i'm pretty nuanced and i've admitted to a couple of cases where i think the evidence is quite clear and i don't feel i need to argue with them but yeah i'm just going to be critical of every organization especially if they're if they're saying that they're representing black people and i am black so yeah i think i can say something about it got you i am thank you very much i think everyone could say something about it actually but thanks for your question yeah this comes in from medusa and ceo no rising power nope cider and port had the next one said the moment you say quote they were no angel unquote it doesn't matter what the person has done they don't deserve to be killed in police uh killed by police why is that controversial you're not us yeah so i really hate this framing where people say he did x he didn't deserve to die like if you steal one piece of candy but then you knock a cop in his face and try to steal his his his gun and you're gonna get shot of course it wasn't the candy that made you deserve to die you were just being stupid and took the risk of dying after stealing candy so you're stupid so like i hate that framing no one says they deserve it because of the crime they commit they deserve it they don't deserve it they it happened to them because they took an incredibly crazy risk after going against the law so and you don't think because they're dead and the cop is the only one there that they just lying about them doing the incredibly crazy thing i mean again i a great example that occupy the cecily mcmillan trial cecily was in the park when the police officers were clearing it uh an officer by the way who's since been let go um like reached around and grabbed her breast and not knowing who it was she went back she elbowed him in the eye oops police officer suddenly she gets a crap kicked out of her wakes up handcuffed to a bed facing seven years in prison for assaulting a police officer um similarly what happened with me again i was not resisting in any way yeah but they still said it because that they're not trying each other to do it okay so i'll just tease you buddy i'm i'm all right so next up this is coming in from the Hague report says blm lies to people who don't know better encouraging hatred and presume people guilty despite exoneration blm doesn't value their own lives um i don't know how much he beats me again i don't really see how one relates to the other like even if you're going to say that they're lying and i don't think they're lying um i think that's you guys believing they're lying because you believe the right wing media spin on it um but even if they were lying the problem is still there it's still real statistically objectively brent brent do you believe in left wing propaganda oh yeah absolutely okay also around these cases yeah absolutely okay yeah like like the thing is is that the left wing media machine there isn't nearly the power behind it than the right like you can't make a career being an anarchist or a communist speaker for the most part like there's occasional ones like noam chomsky um but like for the most part socialists are completely shut out of the conversation from the left but in particularly in the united states it may be different in the netherlands but like definitely yeah in the united states because of macartheism because of these purges of the left that went on um you know during the 1950s and 1960s the radical left voices are not represented for the most part and they're certainly not represented with money power or prestige you can make a ton of money being a radical right wing voice in america and you know once again tucker carlson is the number one most watched person in all of cable news um the the right wing media machine is so much more powerful than the left wing one it's it's not even david versus goliath it's goliath versus a freaking cockroach okay would you admit that would you admit that left wing organizations are lighting we okay all news organizations liar spin okay got you thank you and but and that would include left wing ones thank you very much hake says murders increase after blm gets credence from the government focus in effect baby okay so first off correlation is not causation you would have to then demonstrate that it was because of that and secondly no murders have not increased we've been seeing a general downtrend in um both um murders and overall violent crime and overall crime for years and years we the only times you can say that murders might have gotten more likely because of blm is situations like um freaking kyle rittenhouse um where people he was defending himself man he was not he's a murderer but anyway we we can talk we can talk about that later but the point being is is that yeah a couple maybe like the only things that you can chalk up to blm the only kinds of murders you could chalk up to blm are like when people attack marches and drive trucks through there or if someone shoots back at one of those people or something you know that that kind of killing could be chalked up to them but simply chalking up random violence it makes no sense and you know is very bad face next up this one from hake says capital protest became the language of the unheard um no so again the capital protest no no because the capital protest was not really a riot in the strictest sense that was planned specifically by donald trump and q anon they knew exactly what they were going to do they were attempting a coup they're just bad at it um and the fact of the matter is is that you might i know they feel like they're unheard so you could maybe kind of talk about that but also like you know if you look at the socioeconomic status of a lot of the people involved in uh the january six insurrection you find a lot of them are like they're one of the women she was like a super rich um real estate agent who was flying all over the country you know q anon that that's a cult it is it is a it is a cult and it was a cult joined with fascists hate strikes again he says black mothers actually beg for more police presence in their own communities according to heather mcdonald okay i don't know who heather mcdonald is so i i don't care i can look that but it does it does tie into the point that i made that innocent black people need police the most that's just not true like i can tell you from having watched how police treated innocent black people in new york during the from the height of stop and frisk it's just not the case like cops are dangerous i cannot stress that enough and they are specifically dangerous to you if you are a black man this one coming in from do appreciate your question pancake of destiny like destiny steven now they say blm wants special treatment for black people from police slash workplaces slash colleges it is racist and it assumes that black people are inferior what do you think about that brent so in it in no way assumes that black people are in inferior it assumes rightly that black people are unfairly targeted by the system for malicious reasons which again we have the proof richard nixon war on drugs mass incarceration that these are all facts um now as far as so they're not assuming that black people that doesn't mean that black people would be inherently inferior in any way um what was the first part of that again because i did want to respond to it but um i got caught up on that was the first part they had said that bill on special treatment for black people from police and workplaces and colleges yeah that was it so special treatment um okay this is akin to saying i have a broken arm so i need to get into the hospital before the person who has a black eye and you say oh that's special treatment special treatment for someone is only a problem when it is special treatment that is out of the bounds of reality so if i go to the front of the line for illogical reasons then that is a biased treatment of me but it is very logical that we should deal with this problem with the black community because they're being shot and killed and imprisoned at so much of a higher rate to the point where seven uh seven black innocent black men will be put in prison to every one innocent white man put in prison that's that's completely wrong must move on this one coming in from jesse says blm is winning so they are clearly correct quote unquote they said this might makes right mentality from brenton is disturbing i have had nothing to do with might makes right we were talking about were they an effective organization and as was saying that they were not effective and i would say well they seem to be very effective but you would you were would you are saying the ends justify the means i fell i definitely was not no i don't believe the ends just if i'm a buddhist dude i don't believe the ends justify the means this one coming in from hake says police let's say i think i had this one oh yeah we did read that one and then they but they did say this one calling kapper nick falsely smeared cops of getting away with murder meanwhile 20 percent of murders solved in chicago and then they said misleading kids is pure evil um again cops have been getting away with murder for a really long time uh we'll go back to freddy gray all of the officers involved in that were acquitted um caught the cop who killed eric garner got away with murder the in fact i would say the only time so far that a cop has not gotten away with murder when it came to the high-profile killing of the black man that i can think of is most recently with show and that was just because it was so overwhelming nobody could deny it except your eyes denied it um so i would say overall it there we do not have that going on and these are not lies being told to children you want to live in a bubble you want to live in a world where these things don't happen and i sympathize with that but the fact is this is reality it's happening gotcha and this one coming in from hake says 13 of the population but 40 of cop killers according to heather mcdonald yeah okay so first off that oh and you know by the way you know what the biggest cop killers on the on the in the planet is sovereign citizens who are mostly white like so it's interesting that you just went with this 40 percent you're quoting some version of 1350 there um the the fact of the matter is is that this is just bad statistics i can say this statistical fact that the average american has one breast and one testicle because you got 50 women two breasts no testicles 50 men no breasts two testicles average them together the average american has one breast and one testicles there are liars there are damn liars and their statisticians um and you know you're listening to a damn liar who is misusing statistics you got it in this one coming in from hake says the NAACP was going to use a different girl but swapped in rosa parks because the other girl was pregnant out of wedlock and so they're saying that it was a setup i mean it was a setup in the sense that yeah like rosa parks was not just some old lady who went in there and was like oh i'm just so tired i have no this was a particular political action that she took with the intent of of showing that the system was cruel and unfair to black people and she did a phenomenal job of it um yeah so yes it was a setup but it was a setup for good reason and it had a good effect because again think about all of the tired old ladies who actually did just want to sit down that were treated like crap i think about that hake strikes again on the same topic says rosa parks was part of a pr setup not some spontaneous brave woman yeah i know i just said that that's why i said she was a trained communist but really in fact the matter is yeah but the fact yeah rosa parks was a marxist yes but the fact is is that again um and we said this in the debate she was still doing a good thing because that law the forcing black people to sit at the back of the bus was cruel and it was an example of treating them as inferior second-class citizens so she was absolutely right to do it that's how political change happens a lot of the time people think that stuff happens spontaneously it doesn't like it happens like that on the right on the left long nice youtube and says why does this country get mad at blm for one percent of 99 of protests turning into riots but january six happens and mum's the word i think they're saying nobody does anything or nobody talks about it they are must be a they say they are protected by the gop what do you think of them apples your nausea well i think a lot of them were arrested so they're getting their case in court right so i'm sure there are people i'm sure there are people in the gop who don't want to criticize them too hard for electoral purposes but like the law is taking care of these people like they're not being exempt from punishment right that's not what i understood god so some of them have been arrested and it may have been the trying to take over the country like literally attempting a coup is the line that white privilege begins to break down at but we really won't know until like we actually see the trials and see the outcomes um yeah i will agree with you um there there was more of a response to this but i'll tell you what if that had been a left wing attempt to take over congress like holy crap there would have been a lot more dead than just one like four people and only one person actually killed by uh the police um you know the the the fact is is that we just had a violent cult joined with a bunch of fascists and try to take over the country for a um you know sundowning uh old fascists with holes in his brain so to try to keep him in as the president and it i would say the level of kit gloves that they're handling doesn't them with does not even come close to the threat that they posed at that time you're not since the question was originally for you i'll give you the last quick and pithy word and then we got to go to the next one on the january sixth thing you mean yeah oh i guess it was to him i thought that was to me yeah i answered already i said like yeah some people in the gop are not criticizing them but i think like law enforcement did take care of them and they're not going to get away with it most likely how it looks right now but yeah we have to wait for it next up i don't have they're being uh punished yeah you got it and hey says i think this is for you bren they say blm spreads misplaced suspicion and hate i mean again this is the standard kind of red baiting the idea that you that an organization is secretly making up bad stuff about america specifically to cause problems within america as a subversive thing these problems that they are bringing to light are objectively real that knee on george floyd's neck that was objectively real that happened um the the chokehold that killed erik garner the um uh the rough ride that killed that killed gray these are real problems whether you want to face them or not i am not a snowflake like you are and i'm not going to pretend like the world is a is nicer than it actually is i'm going to pay attention to these serious problems and that's the only thing that anyone of any amount of intellectual uh rigor or uh you know personal um values can do so yeah and get stanfield thanks for your questions as thank you for what you do james thank you get appreciate your support says anytime i can chat live i'll donate human beings need conversations to settle different ways of looking at the world thanks so much get that seriously means a lot and it's true we're not always here to solve the problem but maybe we can at least better understand the problem so thanks for your question haig says oh we got i think i read that one earlier because i was reading some of them out of the order yeah i hope haig no seriously i i yeah he's you know haig from i don't know if you ever watch i know brenton you're a big fan of jessie lee peterson so haig is like the haig report who partners with jessie on the but anyway so yeah red amazing yes but yes we thank you for your question hainrich says james is this is for support great job but i'll give a sticker for your best insults of tom's chair thank you for your support i will gladly insult tom's chair gets dadfield says also thank you very much says regardless of the few conflicts which have transpired within the past few years would you agree you're not that there does exist some racism oh yeah definitely i mean it exists in the netherlands i'm sure it exists in the us uh i just don't think the way blm approached it is the right way so that's why i'm i'm taking that approach as a political scientist so yeah there's definitely racism but i just feel there's more effective ways of battling it you got it thank you very much let's say let's say more moral ways because it's not all only about effectiveness just gotcha and truthfulness bicy road says brent would black lives be served better teaching how to fight in court rather than the police so here's the thing um that is also happening you know you've got groups like the lawyers guild for instance they tend to handle cases like that black lives matter does not just do the media thing like they're they also there's a lot that goes into trial support and there are other organizations that are more directly focused on that as well but yes i would agree that overall when it comes to dealing with police officers you know you don't want to meet them with any kind of force no matter how right you are because you will always lose um you know i learned that at a very young age you know so yes they need to be battled in court but even part of court is also the court of public opinion and that can actually have a direct impact on how these cases turn out and i think that the fact that public opinion was so against chauvin is a big reason as to why chauvin was eventually convicted you know um similarly with uh cecily mcmillan when she was convicted of her wayward elbow she only got 90 days instead of seven years it was because of the media approach to the trial the people in occupy made sure that people knew about it knew what was happening and there was an unprecedented letter writing campaign uh and so many people sent in letters in support of cecily that the prosecutor did not feel comfortable recommending what they wanted which was seven years so they gave her 90 days gotcha and want to remind you moderators thanks so much for all you do but do want to remind you moderators we ask you to refrain from debating the issues i know that's a new big step that we've made as we want to strive for even more neutrality but do appreciate that and then thanks for your question burt says thanks brent for having a goodwill conversation debate towards the end oh no it calmed down a bit towards the end i would like to think it was goodwill the whole time and i will say the last time i argued this it was with um t-jump and i think yinaz has been i like t-jump but i think yinaz has been very respectful here for the most for the most part and while you know tempers did flare at a time i feel like i feel like we got some good stuff done juicy and reverend elation said or revelation i see what you're doing there founder patricia coolers said that quote spirituality is at the center unquote of the movement do her occult black magic practices help or hurt the movement i don't know who this person is i can't say she's one of the founders right patrice and she what is she like a pagan or something i mean spirituality that maybe do you like the do she like the earth crystals like you like brenton and she i don't do the earth or do i'm a buddhist oh no i don't do crystals okay i know it looks like i'm the kind of guy who would do crystals no i'd chant to a gohan zone i just like to tease you i'm so sorry anybody out there likes crystals i've i just snake was right thanks for your question says if there are poor people you can reasonably expect crimes if police are getting shot at not reasonable to fire back according to brenton i would say it depends on how and when and why you're getting shot at if there's a warning shot you probably should not be firing back again i think what we need to do in this country is realize that because we imbue cops with so much power we must also hold cops to a higher standard um and i i think it is if it comes down to cops accidentally shooting a person or a cop not taking action and getting shot we should we should more cleave to the latter because again that's sort of what happens when you sign up to be a warrior you are there to protect people and you know if if a cop has to die to protect the public they should be as a warrior ready to make that sacrifice um and so i think again they need to be held to a higher standard that's the only reason you can ever give someone power is if you hold them to a higher standard as a result of that gotcha and thanks very much for this question coming in from hey who says cops are more likely to die at the hands of the public compared to the odds of a random black person dying at the hands of police i mean i don't know the actual statistics on that i would have to look into it but i again i would rather have cops being more likely to die at the hands of the public than to have the public being more likely to die at the hands of cops well i i really think i really think you're going to have trouble finding any good cops if this is the position if the position is even if people or criminals are shooting at you you might still not be able to pull out your gun you're going to find exactly no one willing to take that job well then there's a lot of cowardly people out there no it's not god yeah no no it absolutely is come on no it absolutely is carolist look if you're a freaking warrior you need to be prepared to put down your to put to put down your life hold on they're not soldiers they're treated yeah but they're treated as soldiers and they do you're treating them as soldiers no i'm not the the freaking david whatever his name is who wrote the killology is the guy treating them as soldiers and telling them they're soldiers you can't have your cake and eat it too it's a famous quote of i and rand so you have to choose because if they're soldiers they're going to kill so you can't complain about the killing if they're soldiers you can't be like you notice i never you i never use dude i never used the phrase soldier i used warrior and i chose that specifically because um what i want to get technical with me now soldier and warrior like yeah look the the fact of the matter is is that the state is there to deploy violence and the threat of violence against threats to property and that is what the police department is they deploy violence and the threat of violence if you are someone whose job it is to deploy violence and the threat of violence you are a warrior you are not necessarily a soldier in an army but you're still a warrior but you want to make them into martyrs you think they i know what i want to make more risk even if they're being shot at by criminals they should still think more about the criminal than about their own life they should think more about the public than about their own life because this is the thing you don't once again they are not interacting necessarily with criminals they're interacting with people that they think might be criminals but these people are actually members of the public so what we need to do is make sure that the people that they are interacting with are more protected on average than the people with the guns okay but the specific context of someone shooting straight at them well outside of straight out this could just be a citizen i'm gonna give brent the last word it was just a citizen yeah it was just a citizen and yes i would agree in general don't shoot at cops you know but like the point is is that again we yeah look is more dangerous to be a garbage man than to be a police officer it is more dangerous to be a cab driver than to be a police officer i think that we cannot afford to have cowardly police officers okay i'm gonna i'm gonna police officers we must we must move the next one i know that you've got another round in the chamber ready to fire out your nas i appreciate no i have to respond to the danger argument it's it's not a correct argument because the danger is of a different sort if you're working like as a garbage disposal guy and you can get your head stuck in the machine and some people die of that every year that's something you know is a danger if you're a cop walking around in a bad neighborhood you can get shot any second that is the danger of a different nature than the danger for a guy throwing in the garbage who shouldn't put his head into the machine right yeah okay so here's what's happening you're blaming the garbage we must go to the next one and you're just as likely if and if not more likely to be to get killed as a as a cab driver every fare could come into your your cab and kill you should cab drivers get a license to kill no next they should be able to defend themselves thank you guys thank you guys sorry but we have so many questions i just want to get through these and i also don't respect you guys this time i know you guys are busy cab drivers don't have qualified immunity this one coming in from long i agree with you on that long night's youtube and says ronald green was tortured by 12 and he didn't deserve any of that you're not there are thousands of cases of these as a black man from this country blm is completely necessary and i can speak for the majority okay again if there are thousands of cases and the best you can provide me is michael brown you're doing something wrong you're just with another one one second like michael brown no i mean i'm not going against this case like i haven't studied this case but i'm not going against it if it's true what this guy says please run with this story because this is a real good one and i don't see the lies as yet but why i'm not the ones with the lies like i don't get it like if they're all around pick the good ones and i won't have a complaint if it's so clear see again i don't believe you when you say that um like i believe you're sincere but again also you know you say you watch a lot of young turks or whatever but really keep in mind all of the big black lives matter cases that are going to get um elevated by the right wing media are ones that the right wing media knows they can find and poke holes and make it look like crap you know um so your what you are seeing is curated in a way and then also your brain then is selecting them more often anyway because what is that um self-serving bias that we all have so you know you may just not pick up on stuff that doesn't enforce you otherwise and that that's all of us but you know we should be aware of it the question is originally for you you're not so i'll give you this uh last word and then we get over the next one well like of course he didn't deserve it if what is being said is true and i wouldn't go against it and it's just an evidence that there are good cases to attach on to and that's my advice and if i think if BLM would do that more than they are right now they would be a better organization like more moral more truthful they wouldn't be boxed in and they shouldn't be able to they shouldn't have to lie about makia bryant because they were truthful from the get go gosh and citer and port says brenton heather mcdonald is someone who did a prigger you video and unironically brought up 1350 as her primary argument oh my god okay i'm glad that yeah she's worthless to listen to long nights youtube says the commission for january 6 was spiked by the gop though yeah they definitely was spiked by the gop and you'll notice a lot of people this is to challenge your nose i'm sorry but listen i already said i agreed that there are people in the gop who have electoral reasons not to go all out against january 6 people i'm saying that as long as how i understand it people are being prosecuted and are being jailed for what happened so to me at least that part seems legit got you on sleepy dances BLM also spread covid during their protesting in the pandemic i mean that was something that i was actually really concerned about which is one of the reasons why i didn't attend any protests over the summer because my wife is high risk and i wasn't going to risk that i don't know how serious the covid spread from the protests was because it was outside and most of the protesters were masked but you know i that's definitely a trade-off because again you've got one epidemic that is covid and then you have the epidemic of you know police brutality police murders and the ongoing you know criminalization of the black community for for-profit prisons so cost-benefit analysis i don't like the idea that anybody should be in the street spreading covid but i can see why someone might feel that they needed to take that risk to deal with a much bigger problem got you there's juicy one from hake from the hake report says how is it lying with statistics to acknowledge that black americans are much more likely to perhaps to to be perpetrators against police and people in general yeah so again it's lying with statistics because it removes it from the context and also it's not people in general so when you talk about like the 1350 or the other race-related statistics what's happened is is that you have prevented a fact you've presented a fact but you presented a fact with absolutely no context and as a result people will draw an incorrect conclusion and inference from it so you are essentially using the truth to tell lies in much the same way that if i said yeah average american has one breast and one testicle i would be using the truth to tell an obvious lie want to remind you folks oh yeah it's coming this coming wednesday as you see at the bottom right of your screen jf will be taking on lance from the serfs on capitalism versus socialism you don't want to miss that one folks so do hit that subscribe button if you haven't already so you can see that juicy debate that's going down this coming wednesday and we also have two more debates today you guys this is the most epic 12 hour debate stream of your lives and we want to say thank you so much to brenton and to your nars for helping make it possible thank you guys so much and folks they're linked in the description so if you want to hear more you can hear more from these guys but thank you brent brenton and your nars it's been a true pleasure i'm going to be back thanks a lot absolutely i'm going to be back in just a moment folks as we will be in the intermission namely we have the next debate coming up in about a half hour and so i will be back in just a moment to chat with you in the old live chat let you know about channel updates and upcoming debates and then we'll be starting that next debate coming up in about 30 minutes or so so thanks so much and stick around folks i'll be right back and thanks so much again to our guests it's all the zoom window is all changed up on me here i am you guys i am pumped do you see me over here we have got so much awesome stuff to come you do not want to miss it as we have many upcoming debates so let me just there we go that's a little bit better and you guys i've got to tell you about this this is a little bit more zoomed in than i like but i'm going to fix this and i've got to let you know about several awesome upcoming things you guys we are so thankful that you guys are here want to let you know modern day debate is a neutral channel hosting debates on science religion and politics and you guys we are very serious we want everybody to feel welcome whether they're gay straight black white christian atheist politically left politically right you name it we are thankful that you are here and so pumped to have you let me tell you about some of the upcoming debates i've already told you about this one on the bottom right of your screen right now it's a little bit scrambled bear with me but you see this on the bottom right of your screen that one is going to be juicy and you can also see in the far right of your screen we are pumped that we have a podcast as well as the youtube channel and twitch by the way twitch chat i've been so behind and saying hello to you and so want to say thanks so much to everybody in the old twitch chat i see you there i see cd rank thanks for being here with us in the old twitch chat as well as thanks to toko toko grace toko kraka toko toko krakra thank you for being with us we are pumped to see you there in the old twitch chat and yeah follow us on twitch folks we hope that's a value to you we really do enjoy learning about this platform as it's still somewhat new at least compared to youtube for us but we're glad that it's been useful for people and then scrop gema thanks for being with us as well and lily bug asaurus thanks for being with us you guys i am absolutely pumped about upcoming debates we have want to let you know it is going to be an epic summer so let me show you some of the cool stuff we've got coming up and we are pumped it's going to be a lot of fun so in particular you guys might be like well you know what's weird is that my camera i swear it's like it's it should be that this is the center point oh you know what i know why it is because i'm so zoomed in two seconds we'll get there is that you guys i am pumped as you have maybe not heard about our crowdfund that is currently underway and right now it's been doing really well we're at about 78 percent which is absolutely epic and so we do want to encourage you if you have not already jumped in on the crowdfund that is linked in the description you might be like james what crowdfund are you talking about well have you been living in a cave on mars with your fingers in your ears it's coming up on june 5th so that's about oh yeah it's a week away folks so we really don't have that much more time for the crowdfund if you are like hey you know what this channel has been fun for me i've enjoyed this i want to support what you guys are doing i like your vision of providing a neutral playing ground for this debate and so i want to help the channel want to let you know this crowdfund project is absolutely epic it's going really well and you might be like what james are you know how to you know how to do this crowdfund like how does this you know you know you think you can really do it we have done it we've successfully pulled this off in the past and so we are absolutely pumped as you can see in the bottom right of the screen it's showing in the red circle we had 143 backers who pledged 3100 last time that was when we hosted new york times bestselling author dr michael schermer and inspiring philosophy mike jones in our january debate this year and it was epic you guys so really encourage that that one went really well but you might be like well what is it on well it's on this platform called indiegogo it's just like Kickstarter except the branding is basically pink purple colored and you can just sign in so easily you can use your facebook for example a lot of different options for how you can sign in you if you want you can create an account you don't have to create an account though and you don't even have to use facebook so that is linked in the description but let me grab that for you and then i do i want to say hi to you in the chat as i thank you very much let's see revelations that i wish i could super chat hake during the debate live chat what do you mean super chat hake like you mean put his name in it but let's see hake says did you take modern day debate floyd viscer oh yeah so folks want to let you know if you if you happen to have a question it's way easier for me to see the question in the live chat if you tag me with at modern day debate and then i can more easily kind of see your question and basically you can say um then i can potentially read it if we have enough time i i do want to respect the time of the debaters their time is valuable and so we don't always get to read every single question but we try jc93013 says james say beta mail in jesse lee peterson's voice i was listening to let's see yesterday i was listening to jesse lee peterson and i was listening to the beta mail song i can't get it out of my head he's a beta mail but i uh yes we we do use beta mail i or beta more broadly you can be a beta female it's possible we might call you a beta female too it's we use it more ironically we're not like they're like we're not it's not it's not really that serious but we are glad to see your rev elation says you are full of grace and truth and we appreciate you that's really kind of you i've got a lot of things wrong with me so i appreciate your kind words that makes it means a lot now the next debate is coming up in 27 minutes folks and that is on whether or not there's evidence for intelligent design you don't want to miss it folks but also you might be like well what other debates do you have today oh wait sorry i got distracted let me do this really quick i'm going to throw the old crowdfund link in the description and that way you can hopefully or it's already in the description i'm going to throw it in the old live chat and do want to encourage you folks we've only got six days or so and so this is the time if you want to support the channel that really does help and you might be like ah you know i don't even know if i really like this religion these religion debates well keep this in mind even if you throw in a dollar like i'm very serious when we see more people are backing it that gives me more confidence and motivation to try to use this strategy to get potential speakers in the future such as like Dinesh D'Souza versus Vosh or something like that like we want to have big time debates and we think the crowdfund strategy is definitely a way to get there like we really do believe it this is absolutely we think that this is the way of modern day debate getting to host bigger batter events and so i do want to encourage you folks if you've gotten value from this channel please do throw into the Kickstarter and you can throw in as small of an amount as a cup of coffee really i mean like that that's it and so do want to let you know about that as we are excited about it folks and it's the you could say the bridge or the pathway for us being able to do bigger headline events as a lot of speakers is like their big time and if we want to get more big time speakers like let's say for example Richard Dawkins like we really do want to host Richard Dawkins in the future like maybe against like Dr. Fuzerana on like creation evolution that would be epic wouldn't it and so in order to do that though i mean we actually need the crowdfund so we do appreciate your support john w thanks for your kind words that love you and i always come back even if i act even if i act like a silly person love your content thank you for your kind words john w seriously that means a lot and i'm throwing the crowdfund into the old live chat so that is right there i want to encourage you to check it out folks and join us as we crowdfund for this massive event it's going to be a gigantic one and that's part of why we're doing this 12 hour stream is if you're like yeah i get some value out of this channel well hey if this is fun if this is something you're like hey i want to see you guys do well throw into that crowdfund as we really do appreciate it and it's absolutely necessary i've like the promises you you can say have already been made in terms of the honorariums and all that stuff and that's the reason we have it though is the honorariums of the speakers Richard Dawkins it might take us a while but you might think like oh it's impossible to get Dawkins well Dawkins allegedly $25,000 to host him if if only half of our subscribers roughly half put in a dollar boom we have it i mean like really so many hands make light work and you can throw in as little as the price of a cup of coffee or less so we do encourage you to join us with that Kickstarter which is linked in the description and hey says beta lady thank you for that hake and then jc93013 says ever considered doing sports debates that would be cool i'm open to it it's a possibility it depends on what it would be on like who it would be on so it it would be kind of outside i don't know if it fit in politics it'd be maybe outside our main topics but i don't know i'll think about it let me know uh potential ideas and want to say hi to you though in the chat as i do appreciate you guys just hanging out here and then hake let's see saw that hake thanks for asking floyd if they tagged me please do tag me if you have a question and then branson ghoul thanks for being with us as well as let's farm thanks for your support oh that's right let's farm i know you asked me to make youtube surgeon general mod i'm i'm open to doing that i do want to let you know i'm sure uh you already mentioned two youtube surgeon general that we now have kind of the moderators it's like kind of more involved like they have those meetings on discord and so youtube surgeon general want to let you know about that and then darth revan good to see you as well as in hacks good to see you again and in hacks i did see that paypal contribution so thank you so much for that that's super encouraging and then human said but glad you're here with us human and then let's see pro-social pessimist glad you're here as well as un xn x wn thanks for coming by and then revelation says donate to him thank you and that's the thing too is we do want to give thanks to matt as matt has helped us grow immensely at the channel and so this is a way that we can actually kind of give back and say thank you as these honorariums i mean these guys do a lot of work and like i said these guys have brought a lot of people to the channel so if you enjoy those matt dillahunty debates and you want to continue to see them this really does help and we do encourage you to actually throw in as that does really make a difference so thank you for that and then bo smith good to see you as well as mg thanks for coming by and then domo thanks for coming by dav james says amazing i agree and cat thanks for being with us says make the beta male song the intermission song that's funny that'd be pretty hip and anderson good to see you as well as paedro hm thanks for coming by and amanda thanks for your mod work thank you to all the mods for all you do seriously we do appreciate you we know that sometimes people will try to trigger the mods and so i would say that's a small percent who try to do that to be fair i don't want to throw everybody under the bus and so we do appreciate you mods for all you do and everybody please feel free to call me out if you think i'm being biased let me know as a moderator the main the host of the show you could say we i do want to be held accountable and so i hope you feel comfortable doing that bob the butcher thanks for coming by as well as thanos marvel thanks for coming by says how is everyone thank you for coming by thanos marvel we're doing well i'm pumped and brian griffin good to see you again and jenna in hacks says jenna survived yesterday so matt knows it's probably safe to come it will be safe to come and thank you moderators for doing a phenomenal job that does mean a lot as we really do appreciate that and then oh somebody said that somebody say that i could have sworn i just saw somebody say that there's a trouble with indiegogo but nathan thompson versus t jump is tonight banger rang let me show you guys this you might be like wait really are you serious james if there's a flat earth debate tonight with nathan thompson and tom jump let me show you this you maybe didn't know it but it's going to be epic so let me pull up the little you could say stream thing right now it is going to be juicy we have never hosted these fellows together on the same stream i don't think ever and so that's why it's going to be especially epic so i'm going to show you this right now give me a moment as i'm pulling that in and you guys you don't want to miss it i am pumped for it so let me show you this this debate that you see on screen right now is happening tonight at 8 p.m eastern and then and hacks says overpriced for dawkins i know what you mean 25 000s a lot but like i said if everybody if half the subscribers threw in a dollar well i mean that would be a piece of cake many hands that make light work and so thank you in the last stream someone you donated two dollars and i'm like that helps that there really does make a difference and again seeing more people are down with like the strategy we do appreciate that as just seeing people are like hey this crowdfund idea is cool like that can bring in new cool stuff raw nakedness good to see you as well and youtube surge in general i'm going to mod you up as i had let you know that there's you could say extra work involved with it now but we appreciate you being willing to do it and bubble gum gun says sports simping for men that's juicy i appreciate you asking that i have no idea what you even mean but the end of this marvel says i am inevitable when when are you doing a marvel debate that'd be fun i'm open to it and then also bellis breckenridge thank you for coming by and vinnie anderson we're glad you're here as well said heck an occasional sports episode would be great for bringing in new viewers even if a lot of us politics junkies don't watch as much still good investment i'm open to it it depends on who would be in but that's weird let's see i've never seen a person be able to highlight their text in um in youtube chat that's interesting paradigm shift music do you do that on purpose and then hold on you guys i'm going to be right back two moments as i am going to i desperately have to go to the bathroom just let me run down the hallway you guys it's pretty bad but i'm gonna be right back so hang tight as we've got more to talk about amazing beta veil i'm almost there okay i'll be right back the one thing that i want to do is i've got two things i want to do so first here i am and i want to make this bigger i always take my glasses off when i go to the bathroom it's really important so i'm putting back on all right ready to go but i am pumped you guys i see you in the live chat chris tomsen thanks for your idea said sports debate would be cool i'm open to it i don't know what topic would be good you guys got to let me know i am open to ideas though for sure so for real let me know what do you think what would be hip what do people like nowadays lebron versus kobe or lebron versus mj like who's better i don't know is that what you're thinking of almost set this is like i'm trying to figure out how did i like make this all funky since the last time that i put it in here there we go well that looks okay now i am back and then i'm also going to go here and let me take away this nathan tomsen picture um oh you know what i did i put the wrong one in here so i'm changing over but i am keeping an eye on the chat because i always like to just know what you sickos are up to mr p good to see you said let's see i have modded up youtube surgeon general so thank you surgeon general for your help and jason daniels thanks for being with us as well as badger bush thanks for your support said hit the like everybody let's show some love for the channel thank you so much for your support and those like getting more likes does motivate me as like for me it's like oh people are enjoying it they're engaging with it that motivates me to put out more debates and so we do appreciate that support so please do hit that like button if you'd like more debates and then let's see here i am pulling in the next you know what i should pull in is i've got to pull in the next overlay for the next debate which is going to be as you know intelligent design on trial and that is going to be a lot of fun so let me just do that right now but also i'll show you this you maybe haven't seen this folks that on the bottom right of your screen we're pumped dr michael brown will be taking on a past eight profit next month on june 9th oh you don't want to miss it it's going to be epic and all of our debates are uploaded to podcast so we do want to encourage you folks if you haven't checked out the modern abate podcast oh please do it's amazing i'm like i'm pumped and thrilled that people have been enjoying it and so we do appreciate that now we've got two more debates i am pumped for this you guys if you are just coming in yes we have been going for what is it i don't know five hours or so and we have plenty more time to go what would it be if we go to 9 30 tonight so we got about seven hours left whole baby we're not even halfway through in terms of time but that makes me happy because i like knowing that we've got plenty more to enjoy and let me pull in um trying to think of oh okay uh we've got this small james we can call it james small and then i'm going to put in trying to figure this out window capture so you can see me james large i'm gonna upload put this in and window capture of the zoom meeting good then i'm gonna shrink this down here and here but let me know i'm watching in chat to see what you guys are saying because you guys are such sickos uh just teasing i don't think you're ever really sickos steve quote said will you participate in a debate on modern day debate i don't want to do it anytime in the near future i've got old debates on here that i don't know if you've seen them i can show them to you if you want but the reason i don't want to now is my department someone in my department has brought it to the chair of my department and they're like what is james doing hosting all these controversial debates and i was okay i'm thankful that i didn't get in trouble the chair was basically like i don't think this is a problem but long story short uh i don't want to take any sides because my department where i'm getting my phd might actually be unhappy about that so that's why i've been that's one reason why i'm like yeah i don't know if it's time to do it anytime soon and let me just quick click these out because they're just confusing for people and i'm going to click this out and then we'll be you guys will be able to see me once more which i'm happy about and this one i can just take out also in the chat ugra thank you for coming by ugra we're glad you're here said he's on three cameras and yet none and that's true let me get this up i will show you guys um we don't have any more tag teams today no we don't that's good this and then i'm just rearranging the screen figuring this out on how we should do this get housekeeping patreon i gg you maybe didn't know we have a patreon if you like this channel and you're like hey i'd like to support what you guys are doing we do have a patreon highly encourage and check that out now i desperately want to eat before the next stream starts so let me just catch up on chat and then i'm going to grab some food and kim jong-un says hi are you modern day hysteria we used to be modern day hysteria that was our name when we first started so we have been around for a while evidence and reasons says this is sal i'm here james just letting you know so you don't worry about me being a wall thank you sal for being here i'm pumped and it's going to be epic and then yeah you can see one of my debates i'll throw it in the chat if you guys haven't seen this i debated this is my favorite probably of all time my friend august berkshire this is in person so you guys get to see me back in the day when i was young and spry if you want to see a video of me my hair looks just ridiculous but nonetheless i'm willing to show you guys this little uh clip so let me find august there it is okay so this debate that i'm about to throw into the old live chat is from literally seven oh my gosh it's seven years ago that is insane so this debate is from over seven years ago now and we this is the first time it's been on youtube so i want to my old debate if you want to check that out you can and that was a lot of fun i i really think highly of august he's a good friend and then bellis breckenridge says jesse's amazing has taken hold of james amazing and then you're right oh brook i i wish i could update the title in twitch but i don't know how um because i always update it from restream is there a way to update a live twitch stream as it's going because you're right it is yeah that's gotta be confusing people are probably like james what is going on here evidence for intelligent design i'm updating it on on uh youtube and now i'm gonna try to update it on let's see here i'm gonna try to upload update the thumbnail that's it because right now the thumbnail is black lives matter and we just wrap that up so let me try to do this right now and i'm pumped you guys i desperately want to eat some chicken let me grab some chicken amazing baby i got some Caesar dressing and it's amazing let me pull the chat down so i can see what you guys are saying oh let's see here and then here i am the ultimate says are you afraid to post share your views on certain topics because of uh the university how the university might react yeah i i actually am i think that there are like some controversial topics that the university will like it's not exactly a welcome it's not as some people not to be fair not all but some people at the university are not as tolerant as they claim to be and like i said it was funny that this professor who like got mad you know that i had this youtube channel uh they they actually it was they didn't even debate about me debating because i hadn't debated on this channel for like a hundred years it was just that i host as a moderator they thought it was like inappropriate and it's like really like seriously just like i don't see this is like such a big deal but hey man that's just the nature of the beast and then my stream or uh there it is okay abdulla ibn iblis thanks for being here with us glad you stopped by excited to eat the salad i hope this isn't gross is this weird that i do this in front of you let me know thank you sideshow nav moderator for blocking hate speech i didn't even see it so thank you for being on the ball and then zach wild thanks for your kind words mike kingdom says beta couldn't agree more a lot of betas out there thanks for your kind words david hill said the professor is just jealous they're angry i just don't understand it was like wait what because i'm moderating like we're like trying to welcome everybody we're like if you're a conservative or republican you're welcome here if you're a democrat or liberal you're welcome here but that i guess it's like it's just like oh you can't do that we're legitimately tolerant so we're like yeah we'll take anything you know people want to debate flatterer sure it just shows you a lot of people not as tolerant as they claim mm-hmm but less farm is having shrimp salad that sounds good good for you and brian griffin says how do you feel about a brexit debate it'd be juicy that might work the only trick is only a small percentage of our viewers are from um from great britain so i don't know if the us audience would most of our like 75 to 80 percent of our audience is us whoa i just realized we're supposed to start in a few minutes that should knock up on me holy moly i've got to send so sorry sal i didn't realize how late it is i want to eat i'm gonna have to slime a protein shake and this next debate might have to start just 10 minutes late pardon my delay folks it's my fault not sals or rj's just want to be clear on that um thanks long nights youtube and who said you're a necessary part of the internet gotta have a place to debate thank you that means a lot and steve quote said if someone interpreted your intent as hate it would be a wild stretch that's what i said i'm like hey i genuinely like i want people to get along and we're gonna have the speakers come in in just a moment i can't believe it i tried to schedule like plenty of time between debates so that it would not be rushed like this but that's all right we'll be fine we're thankful that they're here this is going to be great thank you to the person who just made a contribution to the indigo we really do appreciate that thank you for your support i think i know who it was but i'm not indigo goes as i'm not supposed to tell a person's name out loud if they give so i do want to say thank you though i saw who gave him it means a lot thank you my live chat keeps slowing down hmm what are we going to soon almost ready i'm like a little bit scattered because that time snuck up on me bear with me folks let's see here okay almost there it's already three that's just crazy it's hard it's hard to believe john w thank you for your question said will i get the t-shirt and sweatshirt if i'm in Ontario canada the the shipping costs are a lot if you really want it like i could open it up to people from outside the us but the shipping costs go up a lot so that like i'd have to add on the cost because long story short like when we have product that we're like shipping out and the product itself that we have to pay for it kind of takes away from the the crowdfund itself right that was an echo two seconds our guests have entered the building okay sal and rj pumped that you were here for this sweet 12 hour stream as i think i told you guys that we are indeed doing a 12 hour stream today so want to let you know we're already streaming that's right so we're already streaming so please don't say any dirty jokes or anything that would embarrass uh yourselves and but this is fun i'm i'm going to be setting up and so that's weird why did it freeze let me but basically i've got to update the thumbnail my computer is like really struggling it's got too much right now i've got a ton going on i'm doing this on my laptop this time which is what i do my show on now so uh um presumably it will be smooth for the circumstances picture and sounds seem to be synced up so that's that's cool are you guys in a rush i'm sorry for our late stream yard is the one everybody has trouble with uh you serious and james's picture seems static now really i can see you find sal you're you're on your screen fine can you hear me okay nice to see you james nice to see you too so do you go by james or rj whatever hey you will do too all righty hey you get your damn hands off her if you guys know what movie that's from i'll be impressed uh well there's the one from uh planet of the age get your hands off me you damn dirty ape something like that from girl justin it's kind of yeah it's a classic like that i hadn't thought that that's close ron surling wrote most of the script of planet of the age and bery boldsmith wrote an eight tonal 12 tone serial score music for it which is part of the reason why it's such an other world be weirdness to it more than you wanted to know about that movie i bet i didn't know that yeah i hope you guys it relates to creation evolution issue because it's definitely a parody of religious arguments because of course the apes have uh their religious dogma and they do not allow the idea that humans evolve from apes who doesn't the apes in planet of the apes they insist apes could never have evolved from human beings the lower form of life that's amazing haven't you haven't you seen a planet of the apes lately oh it's been a long time we're just i like i saw it in the theater when it came out 1968 it was around the around the same time the 2001 space odyssey was out really yeah although i didn't get to see 2001 until december of 2008 it was snow on the ground and and it finally hit spokane because it had been on the road show things and spokane was too small of a venue uh to get the heavy gun movies for a while 2001 is the most overrated masterpiece ever made i haven't seen it oh do it as a double feature watch 2001 and also 2010 the movie that peter hyams made in the middle of the 1980s they're very different in style uh but uh that was based on the second because rc clark wrote a whole series of books um spurring off on it and one of them was made into 2010 and i'm fond of 2010 it's a hell of a mirror in it i mean don with cow that's worth the price of admission right there i'm so behind i'm embarrassed well you're a young person see that i've had the advantage of being old and so i saw these already so it's not like i have to catch up on on it on netflix uh james can i do a uh test i have the powerpoint and some videos sure yeah sure make sure that the connections and all i i have only my talking head so i don't have to worry about any uh screen cherry crystal clear so far i see south screen cherry there we go ooh is that a flagellum uh that is yeah and i have one other video i just need to test the audio on it ooh goodie you're gonna bring up your coin analogy that happens as dna unwind during replication as dna unwinds it acts like this rope uh were you able to hear the audio on that oh yeah yeah okay great thanks thanks james bear in mind that that may not be the case when you actually try to do it this is the world of zoom after all yes you know just because it worked the one time doesn't mean it'll work next time so you just wing it uh murphy's law yeah anything so in the past context everything that will have gone wrong already has so live with it while uh let's give james a little more time to digest his dinner so could we negotiate the format um rj oh well i'm easy with whatever all i need to do is who's going first doesn't matter uh how long do we have to talk about whatever we're talking about doesn't matter whatever the things is i'm okay with it i i like the uh by the way first off i i uh i was very impressed with your debate with john maddox i thought you availed yourself well and i say that as someone on his side and the ways back uh the format that um was theirs i'm just i'm gonna just adjust the modify it just a little bit um instead of a hard 10 minute opening um if we could be a little loose on that so maybe 10 to 12 minutes just to introduce ourselves in the topic and then um for the uh there'll be definitely the q and a in the super chats or whatever in any any time i have left over automatically goes to the q and a because that's to my mind the need of the thing that finds out whether or not people about the point or not or have interesting questions so in your debate with john maddox you did ask him a lot of questions and he was kind of in the uh interrogate uh you interrogated him really well and he just sat there and took it um i was wondering if to be okay if um you know like what i did with dr dan when in my debate we had like 10 minutes where i could ask him questions and he would respond and then we kind of flip rolls and then questions are good no such thing is a bad question only adequate or inadequate answers so i was i was thinking you know i'm not i'm not going to be really anal about it exact time that i you know i'd like to aim for equal time for both sides to be able to answer their questions and and so we'll just play it by ear um i did like i did like your informal approach so i i felt you veiled yourself here you um well you saw uh erica's discussion with gunka beckley no no oh she had a quite extensive discussion of him on intelligent design and i'll be alluding to that in my presentation oh that'd be great this will be informative i i have so many i'm so specialized in what i do i don't actually keep track of the modern um i don't even watch oh no absolutely nobody can keep track of everything so that's nothing you should ever be brinton ken rj so rj maybe he's just standing really still let's give him a second um what year well i've had my computer freezes up on me at the worst possible times right in the middle of a debate um nor and i've sometimes had to shut up my camera the word on the streets as rj mentioned was that stream yards had legit problems yesterday oh wow um there's one time i had a live stream and it seemed like youtube was messing up we tried it on restream and then it failed and then we did um stream yard and it failed so we think i just happened to run into that one half hour we're uh or that one evening when uh the entire youtube system was down when was that was that recent oh two weeks ago two weeks ago was it a friday night uh it was like a tuesday night so yeah i don't know what's going on i feel bad rj can you hear us i don't know what's going let me check really quick i i was thinking yeah say something in the chat rj if you can get to it all right folks we are going to load this bad boy up i see you there in the chat thanks for hanging with us as we are going to get this sweet debate on the road in just a moment human and haxt andrenochrome slurper and dav hill invisible ninja praise cat and gutsy gibbon my twin sister and youtube's favorite daughter we will be back in just a moment as we were setting up and so thanks folks as i'm going to try to figure out where rj has gone this is maybe it's some sort of tasteless joke i don't know but we're gonna find out right now hey everybody today we're debating whether or not there is evidence for intelligent design and we are starting right now want to let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics and we are thrilled to have you here no matter what walk of life you're from christian atheist black white gay straight republican democrat you name it we're glad you are here at modern day debate we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics and want to let you know up front folks we are absolutely thrilled for this debate that you'll see at the bottom right of your screen dr kenny rose christian apologist and scholar will be taking on matt dillahunty in a week on whether or not there is good evidence for god you don't want to miss it folks and want to let you know about this crowdfund that we are doing in order to make this huge main event possible on june 5th between dr kenny rose and matt dillhunty we are doing a crowdfund folks and so want to let you know if you have not already jumped in on the crowdfund we are thrilled that we are 79 percent of the way there folks like we are very close as you can see on the far right of your screen folks that meter there in the pink is actually showing what percent we've raised and so i do want to show you just a couple other things is we're using the platform called indiegogo which you'll see on your screen that's how we're doing this crowdfund and so that is linked in the description but i'm also going to throw that in the live chat right now so that way you can jump in conveniently to help us as we raise funds for this epic event and we do want to encourage you to join us as we do that so it's going to be epic it's going to be juicy and you might be wondering like james i don't know i mean are you sure you're going to be able to pull this off believe me let me show you this folks we have already pulled this off so we are thrilled as a community at modern day debate where we are pursuing the vision of providing a neutral platform for debates on science religion and politics at the bottom right of your screen we had 143 backers in january in which we raised 3100 to help make the debate possible between dr michael schirmer and mike jones so if you haven't seen that debate by the way it's in our debate library and you don't want to miss it we're really excited though so i am throwing that link into the live chat right now as i had mentioned and want to say if you've ever gotten value from this channel if you're like yeah i'm going to be sorry it's not bad want to encourage you please join us at that crowdfund link that i just threw into the old live chat now to the debate we are thrilled to have our guests here we're going to kick it over to sal for his opening statement sal we are thrilled to have you here and what i am going to do is would you like to screen share sal we've lost rj and now he i think now rj is back and so we are going to go to full screen for sal's presentation and sal thanks so much the floor is all yours thank you i'm salvador kardova i run the evidence and reasons for the christian faith video channel and i'm a molecular biophysics researcher i will be arguing that there is evidence for intelligent design and uh just a little bit of self promotion i was recently voted by a panel of evolutionist youtubers as the number one youtube creationist so here is a picture of a bacterial flagella motor and i'll be talking about why this why i feel this is one of the evidences of intelligent design that was provided by a primal program with a professor i work with in the field of protein research so hats off to dr de wies who's an associate professor at lebskin university and an adjunct professor at vanderbilt school of medicine for that video the argument for for intelligent from an intelligent design appears to have begun with socrates uh pagan philosopher that's according to the wikipedia entry on the teleological argument the christians have co-opted it most notably william payley in the 18th and very early 19th century he put forward the watchmaker argument there is the classical design argument it's under the same wikipedia entry on the teleological argument the intelligent design argument is an argument for the existence of god or more generally that complex functionality in the natural world which looks designed is evidence of an intelligent creator and i mentioned payley those are his books uh the famous one is on natural theology which is an intelligent design argument and he also wrote books on evidences of christianity that being said the modern day intelligent design formulation is a little different than payley's it avoids or minimizes the relation of intelligent design id arguments to a deity that may be for political reasons plus there's also atheist id and space alien id um but today i'll be arguing mostly payley's originally our original argument for design um where he famously said if we found a watch in the field he actually used the word key but if we found a watch in the field we would know that it was intelligently designed not the product of uh of an undirected environment uh the design is identifiable without knowing when and exactly how the watch was made in biology today this is from a uh article written by a Nobel prize winner as he saw a car uh who is not an intelligent design advocate so i'm not going to represent him as such but he did point out he wrote this article the intelligent clock in the ruby goldberg clock where he surveyed the clocks in watches that were found um in biology uh some of the clocks in biology are very precise uh that echolocation the sonar imaging that they use so to speak to be able to do their um to live requires the ability to measure time a clock if you will with microsecond precision even if we do assume common descent universal common ancestry one of the evidences of that is building trees like the one you see here i actually built this tree that's a separate question from the elegance of design and um darwin argued that natural selection is the mechanism of this richard docens uh attacking pali's watchmaker argument he attacked it with a book the blind watchmaker so he uh i'll discuss a little bit of the pros and cons of the various viewpoints total aside that smirk on his face reminds me emper palpatine that's neither here nor there i'd say the strongest argument against intelligent design is articulated by darwin he wrote what a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy wasteful blundering low and horribly cruel work of nature uh the devil's chaplain may be referring to an individual named robber taylor that's just incidental but in contrast to that the biophysicist which is the field that i'm interested in biophysics are arguing that life is more perfect than we imagine that is many of the machines found in life are operating at the extreme limit of what's possible by physics and that's astonishing them and this does relate a little bit to the distinction between creationism and intelligent design tertulium is a early church father he's a christian he articulated the creationist case William Paley is also a christian but he's articulating the intelligent design case i'm just going to um cover a little bit the distinction creationism assumes intelligent design but the converse is not true colloquially creationism says the world is intelligently designed and intelligently cursed so creationism attempts to resolve the paradox of an intelligently designed world and a broken world some forms of creation to vote a lot of time to the question of Noah's flood in the age of the fossil record uh young earth creationism creationism has a timeline of events uh intelligent design does not so going back to Paley's watch again it's just focusing on whether an object is designed kind of the criteria we would use to assess human-made designs and it's pretty much i'd say a assumption that we can extend this to what we would call god-made designs um i don't have time to cover this article by Natalie Anjir we might be able to revisit it um Darwin's answer to the problem of design was natural selection i will point out the fundamental theorem of natural selection as articulated by um Ronald Fisher has been disproven and shown relatively useless it was never biology central theorem there are other problems in natural selection which we can um try to address in the remainder of this uh debate so if i were to describe science i'd start with the accepted description or approximation of the laws of nature these this is a pretty good description of the major fields of physics uh on which most of modern technology and our understanding the universe is built it's not exhausted but it it counts for a lot i'd like to point out the um if you could see my cursor here this uh this equation of quantum mechanics it's one formulation of it and the psi function the psi function can be described like say the equation of all reality and one way it was described by Douglas Hofstadter a mathematician he said one way to think of the universal wave function of quantum physics is as the mind or brain if you prefer the great novelist in the sky god another quantum physicist who is in my textbook uh mentioned in my textbook and statistical mechanics and thermodynamics when i was in grad school uh said this we does see how quantum theory requires the existence of god of course it does not ascribe to god defined in this way any of the specific additional qualities that the various existing religious doctrines ascribe to god acceptance of such doctrines is a matter of faith and belief if elementary systems do not possess quantitatively determinant properties apparently god determines these properties as we measure them we also observe the fact unexplainable but experimentally well established that god and his decisions about the outcomes of our experiments shows habits so regular that we can express them in the form of statistical laws of nature this apparent determinism in macroscopic nature his hidden god and his personal influence on the universe from the eyes of many outstanding scientists a professor at my alma mater john sopkins university physicist he also echoed bellen fonti's views uh that the universe is immaterial mental and spiritual now a lot of physicists will totally disagree with that characterization i'm just putting on the table to point out the idea of god is not necessarily just something we conjured up with our imagination or philosophy the fundamental of laws of nature interpretations of it definitely allow it as a possibility i will argue that this god that was described by the physicist is eternal um this eternal god that they've argued exists omnipotent all powerful has shown his fingerprints in both the fine teening of the universe and also in the machines of biology and that's my opening and i'll hand it off to rj you gotta thank you very much salve for that opening statement well i'll let you know folks if you haven't heard we have some juicy upcoming debates that you don't want to miss as an example i've already mentioned as you see at the bottom right of your screen dr kenny rhodes and matt dillahunty will be debating whether or not there is good evidence for god but we are also excited that next month apostate prophet will be debating christian dr michael brown and whether or not god exists as well so folks hit that subscribe button you don't want to miss these upcoming debates because they're going to be epic and we're pumped for it with that we're going to kick it over to rj thanks for being with us and the floor is all yours for your opening yeah and hopefully my connection i switched the the laptop was having problems so i'm on the pc and hopefully that will function tolerably well for the whole thing here um the topic i had originally wanted for the debate isn't the one that we have which uh is the evidence for intelligent design i wanted to have a discussion of the intelligent design model and do they have one and if they don't why don't they have one and sal did not want to have that as the debate topic but i still need to address that um the presentation that sal has done so far is classic intelligent design that kind of dangles god off in the corner somewhere but argues that there are intrinsic features that lead to inevitably um the foot in the door for the design the problem is it's never gotten past that i'm old enough to remember back in michael dentin's time in the 1980s when the first little ripples and william faxton of the intelligent design movement were starting to come on the scene and they're all still around now we have a long track record of absolutely nothing from the intelligent design movement we've got uh starting off with michael dentin in 1985 as of his latest books uh he still hasn't figured out what he thinks happens on anything he has a not darwinism not natural selection not this not that but not what he thinks happens in any case whatsoever it hasn't got to that point i've interacted with him personally trying to get him to pin down on the reptile mammal transition which he functionally accepted uh not um michael behi who has now a bunch of books down the row where it's kind of moving the goalposts over to yet new examples um we still don't know what he thinks happens on anything when we're flagellum designed how many flagella were designed in what taxa is anything naturally related to anything else any of that systematic issue no and behi has been roundly criticized again and again and again for deck stacking his arguments for suppressing information uh bypassing stuff that he doesn't want to think about that's both in the imapenem case that he brought up in the dover trial in 2005 and also in the um uh a chlorocline case he went into in the edge of evolution which i wrote a whole big section on in evolution slam dunk uh looking into the the limitations of what he was doing there in regards to thornton's work um so behi uh only one example that was in his presentation today sals uh was one of the examples that behi brought up which is the flagellum which by the way wasn't even his idea it was michael dentin's uh from the 1980s and there was a whole back and forth that goes on on the intelligent design literature on that but other areas like the kreb cycle behi never claimed that was intelligently designed why because we by that time knew enough about it that even though you could have presented it as such if you knew looked less about the sub components um he didn't try doing that and never tried to defend that and so that boundary layer of what exactly is designed and what isn't where the boundaries are the intelligent design and irreducible complexity mantra gets used widely by people often bringing up subjects like eyes which behi never claimed to be an irreducibly complex system in darwin's black box so you get this fog bank of debate going on but still to this day um i think behi was on danster and cardinale show we still don't know what he thinks as to what was designed when map of time clarity of of a model uh then we have uh bill demsky uh the developer of irreducible complexity theory uh no free lunch uh complex specified information he's a mathematician he's got all these little formulas he's never applied it to genetics and he's basically walked off the field now and is writing theology books here you would be able to theoretically show in the genomes of actual organisms this supposed complexity and how it works out in a rigorous way at that mathematical formula level that sal was bringing up regarding a quantum theory and physics and all these other examples the reason why they can come up with high level formulas and by the way mathematics is used in in evolutionary theory all the time um biological systems are quite more complicated than physical systems and yet there are even today some physical systems that we don't know the explanations for at a mechanistic level like lightning in a thunder cloud nobody is arguing that zeus is doing that and yet still there are always levels of things we don't understand um that's the boundary layer of how intelligent design approaches the problem it's to find a thing where there's a big question mark or even a small question mark and argue that there is the doorway for our design we don't have to identify the designer we've established that air quotes there must be design and please don't bother us with any of the model that's where we got into with erica gutsy given just a week or so ago when she had a long discussion debate uh with gunter beckley who is their one and only paleontologist operating in the intelligent design field where erica was explicitly trying to pin him down on his model the lack of a model why what what do you think happens beckley accepts common descent common ancestry he thinks that the fossil record is okay for that he's okay with the reptile mammal transition and yet he argues that by uh biogeography supposedly is a problem for common descent well where exactly are you coming down is anything related to anything what exactly is designed what isn't what design events what would they look like beckley understands that there is a problem here that he doesn't want to wait into and sal may or may not want to wait into which is if you create a boundary layer of design doesn't that apply everywhere where that boundary layer is and if you're looking at for example a molecular interactions that this is a lock and key and it must have been designed well aren't all lock and keys in biology like that including the ones that cause diseases including the ones that create messes for things at that point you're in a theodicy issue of where god is having a design that's creepy god has the parasites god has all the weird stuff that was what troubled darwin way back in the 19th century and a lot of people that they go ye that for some it was much easier not to bother about it beckley didn't want to bother about it either he recognized that there was that slippery slope which is why he deliberately wanted to avoid a meddling designer who comes in and design stuff what does he think happens then well maybe a quantum consciousness thing is happening that doesn't explain anything it's a way for him to distance himself from the data field so this is a phenomenon that we have been observing all through the intelligent design field for decades uh steve myer jonathan wells and gaiger um douglas axe all of them only a few interact at the technical level axe and gaiger most notably it's it's notable that gaiger is one who's collaborating with gunter beckley on the a promised upcoming paper on whale evolution oh boy am i looking forward to seeing that one and also feathers that's a big michael denton issue that he's been bringing up on feather evolution and i want to see them interact and engage at the data floor level but what remains over 35 years is there is no there there the reason why the einstein formulas are there and the newton formulas are there is because newton worked out a rigorous testable model that worked really really well and eventually they noticed some anomalies in it they couldn't explain the perihelion a mercury so maybe there's a a planet closer to the sun vulcan that's bending mercury's orbit a little bit and you could predict outer planets so that's why we figured out where neptune and uranus were predicted purely on gravitational theory and so there was no reason to throw newton out the window just because the perihelion mercury was a little wonky until the einstein guy came along and said oh according to my model which junks standard um physical notions and comes up with spacetime in the bending of spacetime and all of these other things that um now newton works fine for small objects and distant from big stars and the like but when you start getting close like mercury now relativity is playing a case and we can say why precisely the perihelion a mercury is processing relativistically whereas newton can't explain it does that mean we junk all of newton's data no newton still works uh nasa doesn't use einstein's formulas to send probes to jupiter it's really complicated formulas it's easier to use newton because for what they needed to do still applies so what you do when you have a paradigm shift is you have a model that is rigorous that makes predictions that you can test that accounts for all of your opponent's data because the data ain't gonna go away and also accounts for the new data that supposedly can't be accounted for and so you have a testable model intelligent design has never got to that level and for that matter the young earth creationism that sal apparently also believes but often doesn't discuss in detail that too theoretically has as he mentioned a timeline but other than cartoons young earth creationism has never got any farther than that either all they've ended up with is just cartoons we can test this out with andrew snelling and the various people at institution for creation research and answers in genesis that they can never get to the level of detail that you find in the actual geology papers and the cosmology papers so even though there's a cartoon in principle for young earth creationism it never gets to the model stage and likewise intelligent design being creationism light can't even get to that level no intelligent designer can figure out how many flagella were designed in what circumstances in what time bill demsky was challenged by ken miller uh back in a debate at natural history uh museum i think in 2004 somewhere around there and pleaded with him to tell him when this took place and whoop no it's a fog bank and yet design events must have taken place in time and space there must have been a moment when there were no flagella and at some point by some process there must come to be flagella all at once separately multiple designs independently in different organisms or common ancestry from a commonly designed unit what do you think happened when and if intelligent design ever gets to that stage then they can work their way up to challenging the paradigm i'll have to repeat because we're about 11 minutes i'm almost out of time there absolutely nothing we say in this debate is changing any of the facts nobody in the scientific community is bothering about what i'd say in defensive evolution or what sal says in criticism of um or defensive intelligent designer criticism of Darwinism it's pure schlocky entertainment bear that in mind for what we're going to be talking about in the next times and i believe i'm just about 12 minutes and we will say bye bye and on to the next phase you got it and want to let you know folks this is part of a 12 hour stream we are pumped as it has been epic so far and it's going to become even it's just the entire day phenomenal you guys tom jump and nathan thompson are debating the shape of the earth tonight that's been a long awaited debate you don't want to miss it and that is showing at the bottom right of your screen with that we're going to warn people if they are using this as a drink moment do not become drunk and stupor from the various things you encounter along the way this is not good for your health not for 12 hours juicy and we will kick it into open conversation thank you much thank you so much rj and sal the floor is all yours thank you rj you're one of the most formidable opponents i've ever faced very sharp and fast mind and annoying as i well know we uh agreed to to have kind of like i'll be the interrogator for 10 minutes and we'll switch we won't be anal about time i do want to contest a few things the scientific community if you say they don't pay attention i've received words from editors that some of my papers are being accepted they are relevant to this topic so um just to correct that i don't agree with that that theoretically some of these things the journal theoretical biology uh various intelligent design material stuff from sanford gets published in there okay i'm saying that so far they've had no impact whatsoever on what actual the scientific community is doing in research lines or or citations as saying yeah we agree with that and then so i i i do want to thank james because i said i wasn't going to argue the model and he's correct that i'm not arguing for a model or mechanism in the sense that it's repeatable testable and controllable and the irony is uh um we're talking about coherent and workable models evolutionary theory does not have workable models of some of the examples that i'll be citing and then also a biogenesis i'll also point out it should be consistent with physics and chemistry the arguments i'm putting forward today are not arguments of ignorance they're arguments by contradiction and there's a subtle there's an important distinction uh between an argument of contradiction and an argument of ignorance uh it's an argument by contradiction to say a tornado passing through through a junkyard is not going to assemble the 747 that's not an argument for ignorance the um and if anybody in the biogenesis was claiming that then you would have a point that's a straw man uh it's it's not because we have experimental and physical evidence that there are disorganizing principles active in biology so if you'll permit me my 10 minutes um i'm going to ask you questions yeah on origins robust as i was anticipating yeah thank you so this is from my slideshow this is an illustration of quarters and i'm so glad you're going if we had if we had if we had a random if we had a tray and we threw these these are fair coins presumably and this this is just an illustration if we threw it on the on the tray we would get um what we call a random pattern like this now it is astronomically improbable that we could ever repeat this pattern so in a sense yes it's random and it's astronomically improbable because we're not able to repeat it we wouldn't expect it to be repeated however if we looked at a something a little bit more like this we'd begin to doubt that a randomizing process is the source and then even more so with this so this is also this is also astronomically improbable because we can't repeat it with a random process but it is also improbable as a matter of principle if we borrow language from statistics and statistical mechanics and thermodynamics we would say this this is improbable as a matter of principle because it is a in a low multiplicity state you can take the binomial distribution and at the tails of the distribution the head all heads is at the extreme tails whereas 50 percent tails and 50 percent heads is kind of in the middle of the distribution why am i bringing this would you agree with that so that's my question now now let me let me put in a question of my own please this is excuse me sir this is my 10 minutes if we could oh okay okay i'll wait to drop the anvil after you're done then you can then you can chew me out in your 10 minutes that's fine thanks james so do you agree that this is improbable as a matter of principle it should stand out um do you have a problem with that james oh i'm oh please present your presentation don't ask for reactions for me because a yes or no deck stacking is not appropriate just present your okay agreed we'll do it that way so this is improbable as a matter of principle the thing is is we see and then you know we could also say the same of these these cards if we took the cards and just through them randomly we couldn't repeat it we could say it's astronomically improbable that particular set but we wouldn't be astonished we wouldn't make a design argument from that however we would make a design argument from a configuration like this or a configuration like this the configuration is improbable not only the sense of the pattern not only in the sense that the pattern is not repeatable by random process but as a matter of principle it's astonishing because it violates natural expectations of what would happen from random events moving cards and random orientations random speeds random positions and again this is like the proverbial tornado passing through a junkyard it's not going to assemble something like this it might make something like that and so this again i said that a term we could use is this is in a state of low multiplicity at the tails of the distribution we find this same pattern in biology in fact the Gibbs free energy profile and that involves a little bit of thermodynamics it would resist the formation of this in a random prebiotic soup the urie miller experiment could not make homo chiral amino acids like this james tourhead who's a very fine chemist he spoke before the united states congress on another matter but that's just all to say he's a top chemist he said this problem has not been adequately solved there may be some things that sort of suggested for amino acids but it's really bad for sugars and nucleotides so we have this pattern that we have experimentally established is not is resisted by what we know about chemistry and physics so at least for now unless barring a future discovery this is an argument by contradiction it is not an argument by ignorance we know that this shouldn't happen and then also we call the three prime to five prime connection in dna and i'll cover that a little bit this is also a violation of the law of large numbers so i've shown the reason i started out with the coins is just trying to establish the violations of law of large numbers here it would be evidence for design in this case if we happened upon a something like this in a room we would assume it was intelligently designed that's partly helped by the fact we know human designers can do this so the outstanding question is since god doesn't appear to most of us whether we could extrapolate the same kind of statistics and make that inference but still it stands we know experimentally that this is very unnatural we cannot duplicate it especially for the sugars especially for the sugars maybe a little bit for the amino acids but it really fails for the sugars it's something that's created by spontaneous the reason it deviates from that is what we call spontaneous isomerization and we can go into that for those interested to get really nerded out i would do talk about this on my channel at length on the chemistry we have phd chemists who talk about this but back to the three prime five prime connection here i don't know if you can see it but you have like this little carbon here called three prime and it's connected to a phosphate group to the five prime the five prime is actually up here to get this to consistently connect we have to have very special machines if we're synthesizing this from scratch we need intelligent designers to be able to assemble a dna when we're doing genetic engineering and i work for genetic engineers one of the most famous ones and this is not easy to do it's it is literally or perhaps say figuratively similar to arranging coins to be all heads but this has to be done at the molecular level so it's not just the connections we would call this consistent linkage and change tan is a molecular biologist who is encouraged to be a molecular biologist by um a Nobel prize winner george smith she's a creationist and i deproponent she was the one who pointed this out it's one of the most difficult problems to solve for origin of life and again this is not argument by con by ignorance this is argument by contradiction that this does not naturally arise it's not that we're saying we don't know how it could it's not expected to neither are the ribose sugars here this is the uh the uh beta d2 uh deoxy ribose furnace form this is extremely hard to synthesize and make into a nucleotide so there are many violations of the law of large numbers this is evidence of design i pointed out the laws of physics can be interpreted to suggest the existence of god the kind of what you see here the dna exceeds exceeds a lot of the things in dna exceed our technology um is better than all the minds put together on planet earth to be able to build some of the things we see in dna and to me that is prima facie evidence of intelligent design and james uh rj thank you for your patience and uh off to you okay uh that was about eight minutes that's um um reset my little clock here um i am glad you brought up the coin analogy because there's some significant differences between that kind of coin analogy and the biochemistry that the origin of life researchers are doing and and i definitely encourage you on the work that you are talking about in the last slide uh we're looking forward to that monograph we're looking forward to the publication of that we're looking forward to see what pushback it gets from other researchers uh get in there and and deal with that that would be absolutely delightful the problem with the coin analogy is the same problem that bill demsky would have when he would bring up scrabble tiles it's divorced from the connection to actual biology every one of the coins that would be being generated in a prebiotic context aren't static objects not doing anything they're biological molecules that connect or buy molecules in general that are interacting in varying ways and there we get into complexity to where a molecule of a particular form being a wet dry cycle is favored as opposed to other molecules that weed out precisely because they don't have those dynamics and so a lot of the research has been going into the dynamics of how these things are actually behaving in actual prebiotic context the wet dry cycle issue is one that is showing up uh jason hind's done stuff on the origin of single chirality of amino acids and sugars uh and then there was um uh let's see i'm trying to find that other little paper in there uh trying to plow around through my notes anyway um that that again is an origin of life issue and so i'd like to ask you when do you think there was the origin of these dna systems was it a single event involving a single precursor organism or multiple ones and what do you think happened let's get uh i i want you to think about what you think happened please tell us all uh did you want me to respond yeah that's called a question yeah okay yes sir um i have my opinions people know that since i'm a young earth creationist i would say that's 6500 years but i'm not um in a position to defend that i've actually criticized some of the young earth model so some of that's taken on faith so that's beyond i mean that's my opinion but that's i'd like to point out that's not relevant to the argument that i'm no but that that's your model that there were individual biblical kinds that were created at a six day frame would that be correct a single creation week and never before or since correct yes and and i don't believe that um i know some of my colleagues in the young earth creation community will take exception to the fact that i say that i don't think the model is completely defensive is not defensible at this time it's not ready for prime time what i did lay out um in my argument against the biogenesis i think a four half a four billion year old independent creation of multiple organisms that are bacteria only from which organisms developed afterwards by natural means is that a defensible one based on the intelligent design literature uh can you repeat the question that there would be there would be multiple bacteria designed by one or more designers four billion years ago from which extant organisms have developed independently by natural means is that defendable from a design perspective from what the material you presented so far for the bacteria only not the eukaryotic organisms oh why why do you draw the line there eukaryotes have things like membrane bound organelles and all sorts of transport so you are arguing that intelligent design absolutely rules out an endosymbia or any endosymbiotic origin for eukaryotes it it may it has a flimsy um it has a flimsy explanation for the mitochondria it does not explain the nuclear membrane nor the fine flimsy for me i'm sorry the fine flimsy what do you mean flimsy argument well 85 percent of the the genes inside the um that are mitochondrial uh that form the mitochondria from the nuclear and the alpha protobacteria that supposedly formed it does would only contribute at best 15 percent and you have some documentation on that i do hope we get i'd love to know about that yes like to present it right yes i'm happy to make sure provide that you that you can pennies um the irreducible nature of eukaryotes published with two other researchers actually covered that that's where i got the statistics so if you look up the the title of the peer reviewed paper irreducible nature of eukaryotes and i love that title irreducible he will cite those statistics and the problems of the um the alpha protobacteria being um an origin for that it certainly does not explain so you mean uh okay uh that's uh curling cullens in penny 2006 uh what's the view currently that's 15 years ago have any of them changed their views i don't know because kunan has come in and said the problem with eukaryotic evolution is a mystery it's getting worse the problem's not getting better to be just saying that yeah the i'd be just saying that it's 2000 on that i'm sorry you so so you have not checked to find out whether curling cullens or pennies view in 2015 2021 uh it has altered from what they were writing in that 2006 piece that is correct because because the data is now making the the case worse in fact i've checked more recent literature so it's not relevant whether curling so they're so their opinion it's relevant whether it's one second just to hear the it's my my ten minutes here response from sal i think sometimes that question is asked to sal and he he answers part way and then he gets cut off with another question well then thanks guys then i was saying i have i have read on my channel current literature on eukaryotic evolution and it is problematic uh i i had two articles on my channel was just a journal club reading so it's um it's not really you know the insinuation is i'm not kept up with the literature i have why did you bring up curl in 2006 if it doesn't matter whether their views have changed because you have different data that doesn't depend on curling for your argument i was citing where the statistics where you asked me for a reference for the statistics of the 15 percent that's where i happened to know it off the top of my head but if you'd like we can actually do a literature literature literature search to see if that number still holds now now we want to do that in in the side thing so um uh so you then would draw that there's a now intelligent design argument which is not young earth creationist would have a separate design event taking place regarding the eukaryotes would that be the intelligent design model i don't believe they're intelligent design models ever their models their models that there's not one uniform model the individual let us hypothesize an intelligent design hypothesis here is it a legitimate intelligent design hypothesis to have a design event for the origin of life involving multiple bacteria a later design event billions of years later for eukaryotes independent from that and possibly done by a completely different designer is that a legitimate intelligent design hypothesis based on the available data today one could put it put forward like that steven meyer has one that is similar to that it's not well developed and that would be more on off the cuff type speculation it's not something of deep interest to most id proponents so if you're complaining we don't have this and why isn't it can you speculate as to why it isn't a deep interest of intelligent design proponents it's beyond the reach of us to figure all this out even though you've got a time frame for eukaryotes you're not arguing there's any evidence that eukaryotes date back to say four billion years do you i'm sorry i i don't see i don't see your what's your line of questioning is where's going i'm just saying i just stated what's going on in your map of time and i'm suspecting that there is a lot of times where the question is asked to sal and then he doesn't have a it's not a clear as a full chance to respond as long as you're not filibustering sal which i don't think you are well want to be sure you get a chance to respond yeah let's let's give sal a couple minutes to say what he thinks is the range of intelligent design argument that would be available in the repertoire that would be consistent with the data that would relate to the origin of eukaryotes i believe it has to be rather instantaneous it's irrelevant whether it's billions of years ago or not because the uh the transition would require multiple simultaneous changes and i'm going to show videos on that in my 10 minute segment why it would have to be and you'd only get maybe one shot at it and that's why i'd have to be intelligent so we're in perfect time because i'm about it out 10 minutes that's only 18 seconds into the two minutes so it just do you have more so let's give let's give sal his 10 minute next and present the material on the eukaryotes let's dive into that sure but i do want to give him a chance to actually i don't think he was done finishing answering that question so i do want to give him that time as well yeah i will have a chance to um i'm gonna i think maybe uh i'll go ahead and talk about the difficulty of the eukaryotic transition and that might answer rj's question so this is at 1807 so i'll talk about this transition it would also show why if we assume the case for universal common ancestry we would have to invoke miracles that are indistinguishable from special creation so here is the difference between the eukaryote and prokaryote architecture probably one of the most important features is that the eukaryotes have membrane bound organelles and i'll highlight especially one of them the nucleus here so this stringy thing here in the prokaryote is the dna the dna is also in the eukaryote but to access for chemicals to access it um it has to go through this nuclear pore through this nuclear membrane and the membrane has little gateways that we call the nuclear pore complex so again this is the eukaryotic nucleus and the difficulty is that um proteins have to go in and out through these pore complexes so if we just create a membrane without the complexes the creature is dead because there's no way to access the dna and and and and all the proteins instant death natural selection would not be a good explanation for this neither would random mutation obviously i'm going to show a little bit of the complexity of the nuclear pore complex here this is silent by the way we can all hum music 456 proteins of 30 different types um membrane spanning proteins which creates another problem so even if we assume just a few even a few proteins might be too difficult in terms of random chance so uh james is asking me why i think this uh would require intelligent design i'm trying to show depict visually why this is and for things to uh go in and out of the nuclear pore complex here this um it has to identify what is supposed to go in and out because not anything can go in and out and and the system would be functional so i'm going to skip a little bit here i hope that one made the point now i'm going to show how things go in and out of the nuclear pore complex this is this would have to be in place for the eukaryote to exist this is why i don't if we accept universal common ancestor you need miracles to make it happen consider all the parts that are needed to facilitate this this is a four minute video the nuclear pore complexes are the only channels through which small polar molecules ions and macromolecules can travel between the nucleus and the cytoplasm by controlling this traffic the nuclear pore complex plays a fundamental role in the physiology of all eukaryotic cells most proteins and RNAs are too large to move through the complex by passive diffusion and must move by an active process in which appropriate proteins and RNAs are recognized and selectively transported in a specific direction let's consider proteins imported from the cytoplasm to the nucleus only a subset of proteins can enter the nucleus and they are allowed in by virtue of having specific amino acid sequences called nuclear localization signals nuclear localization signals typically consist of one or two short segments of basic amino acids nuclear localization signals are recognized by nuclear transport receptors called importance which carry the cargo proteins into the nucleus with its cargo attached important binds to specific nuclear pore proteins in the cytoplasmic filaments by sequential binding to more interior nuclear pore proteins the complex is translocated through the nuclear pore at the nuclear side of the pore the complex is disrupted by the binding of a protein called ran to important ran carries a molecule of gtp this binding changes the confirmation of important which then releases its cargo protein into the nucleus the important ran complex is then re-exported through the nuclear pore a protein in the cytoplasm called ran gap for gtpa's activating protein stimulates ran to hydrolyze its gtp to gdp an action that triggers ran to release important back into the cytoplasm ran plays a key role in protein import and export note that while ran is bound to gdp it cannot disrupt the binding of important to a cargo protein in an action that prevents the depletion of ran from the nucleus the ran gdp formed in the cytoplasm is transported back to the nucleus by its own import receptor a protein called ntf2 in the nucleus another protein called ran gaff for guany nucleotide exchange factor stimulates ran gdp to release its gdp and pick up gtp in this form ran gtp can disrupt the binding of important and its cargo triggering the release of the cargo in the nucleus by the actions of ran gaff found only in the nucleus and ran gap found only in the cytoplasm a steep gradient of ran gtp and ran gdp is maintained across the nuclear membrane with ran gtp inside the nucleus and ran gdp in the cytoplasm similar to imported proteins proteins are targeted for export from the nucleus by specific amino acid sequences called nuclear export signals nuclear export signals are recognized by receptors within the nucleus called exportans which direct protein transport through the nuclear pore complex to the cytoplasm ran gtp promotes the formation of stable complexes between exportans and their cargo proteins note that this same form of ran does the opposite for importance in their cargos the effect of ran gtp binding on exportans dictates the movement of proteins containing nuclear export signals from the nucleus to the cytoplasm following transport to the cytosolic side of the nuclear envelope gtp hydrolysis and release of ran gdp leads to dissociation of the cargo protein which is released into the cytoplasm exportans are then recycled through the nuclear pore complex for reuse so i have a few more minutes i'd like to cover a little bit more in my time so that was my answer why i think that needs that's a partial answer that also addresses the problem of the nuclear the nuclear genes that have to be coded and then made to proteins and then have to enter the mitochondria that's why the endosymbiosis problem hypothesis has these challenges it's not going to go through just one nuclear complex it's going to go through other complexes of transmembrane proteins this is this is a disaster for the endosymbiotic theory and what i'll usually get from evolutionists they'll say oh well we have these phylogenetic reconstructions that show that they evolved and i'm going to criticize that but you see just being able to build trees of similarity does not explain how this complexity could evolve simultaneously or how it's worked around and so that's why i believe that there had to be an intelligent design event if there's if there's universal common ancestry if we accept it even with the mainstream timelines that's going to be problematic so i'm glad you brought that up why you wanted to argue eukaryotic evolution and this is only a fraction of the problems and so you know evolutionists can hand wave this away which they usually do and they just do these phylogenetic reconstructions and trees and that's these are non sequiturs that they're actually posing to me from an engineering standpoint and the problems of statistics it just doesn't agree it's violations of natural expectations and i showed a little illustration of that in a biogenesis as far as the chemicals and by the way what happens with the chemicals you're saying that the coins don't reflected adequately um that's correct in that it's the problems worse at the chemical level so i'll hand it off to you james and thank you for for bearing everyone let's explore more of that of that eukaryote thing so um there are lots and lots and lots of eukaryotes um tiny microscopic ones and us and insects and plants and all of these other things in there so the poor mechanism that you assert on intelligent design grounds is irreducibly complex and designed instantaneously this was an instantaneous design for each organism that was done or what what do you think happened i would that's my opinion um that's different than whether i can make that claim defensible and i'm not in a position to do that today but i appreciate the question i mean you know it's good you're asking i'm not objecting i'm just saying yeah so what would be the range of thinking on this in the intelligent design community from a steve meyer to a jonathan wells who uh demsky and others on origin of eukaryotes how many origin events were there uh how spaced out in time are they because we're a long way away from the first eukaryotes i i don't think they've explored it i don't think they i haven't seen any literature to it we don't talk i'll agree with you neither of i okay they haven't thought about this that's part of the no model uh issue um so um who are some of the major researchers in that that you brought up the video there uh on the um the rand gtp and gdp export and import and who have been some of the major researchers in that area i'm not familiar with the names the this is basically textbook cell biology did you do any um investigation on whether or not the various components uh have had literature working out evolutionary aspects of how those who developed i looked at it a little bit and i get uh so a short answer no because if you'll allow me to explain why i see the same garbage recycled all the time i just get tired of wasting my time on it because what they'll do is just make a phylogenetic tree which i pointed out is not an explanation of mechanism so if you are asserting you are right to say that i maybe didn't look at it because i get tired of seeing the recycled garbage that they represent a scientific explanations that's no more than storytelling without any study of statistics or physics and chemistry the probability of this emerging neither do they look at whether even selection is a good explanation so so you are asserting that the various papers that have thought about the evolution of the various components of that poor system are drawing on only phylogenetic trees for their inferences and offering no biological details other than that just garbage mostly mostly garbage mostly garbage okay for the readers benefit we can go through these papers and i that's a testable prediction it's going to be the same exactly while writing it down yes so um we can do that on my channel or somewhere we'll go through the papers and we'll see it's going to be phylogenetic reconstruction which is tree drawing which is not much more than um first grade just drawing up trees i mean really it's not it's not as mad i submit to you that they would be using phylogenetic trees as guideposts because you need to have a sense about what is happening in what order to give a better clue as to what might be going on as the system develops and alters from one through another are you are here's another empirical question i'd like to have nailed down are you contending that the poor system in eukaryotes is absolutely a universal in that there's absolutely no variation for one organism to another on it no i'm not you can you characterize what range of variation there are among eukaryotes on this system no have you thought to look as to what range of variation there is among eukaryotes on this i've thought to look at it but uh considering how many eukaryotic systems there are that would be intractable okay i can tell you that is an issue i have not investigated and therefore i'll be coming into a cold to see what exactly is has been done or not on this matter and anybody watching the show then can mark this down okay testable hypothesis that we can work through i think we've done this one out to death i think it'd be nice to get um sal's next heavy gun that he wants to bring up as what he would consider a really solid instance of intelligent design and then i'll be wanting to find out more about how that fits in at all in the intelligent design framework okay thank you it is 1821 i will show an example of where phylogenetic trees fail uh it will be with the topois sombrace enzyme which i've recently published i expected you to bring that one out that's your latest thing by the way when when can we expect some technical work i think you've been working with sanford or who on this uh there was a there was an article may 14th on my work in structural biology bioinformatics published it was an announcement in the facib journal if you go to my channel you actually see my announcement of it it was a team of researchers including computer scientists protein biologists and what was the abstract concept what was the issue that was being presented in that paper uh is this my time or yours because then i'm going to reset the clock to six 1822 i'm sorry okay i will i will remain silent that's that's cool i i i appreciate i'm a curious guy sal i like to know things you are i appreciate i appreciate your interest james so i take no offense that you asked me that so if uh we'll just uh if you'll indulge me i will show what the topois sombrace enzyme does so first i'll show the sequence this uh listing here if you see the alphabetic letters this is a this is a listing of the amino acids represented by english alphabetic letters for the topois sombrace and it's relatively small about 1500 amino acids 1500 residues or so and i'm going to show what it does uh oh i know now i'm criticizing phylogenetic reconstructions so this is the human topois sombrace and then there's the bacterial homologue of that which is called gyrace and i actually built this diagram from all the sequences i used a evolutionary program to build this tree and i'm showing that i'm going to try to argue why this is not this is not a mechanistic explanation for the evolution of the topois sombrace going from a prokaryote to eukaryote i'm going to specifically highlight the problems but first let's learn a two-minute video on the topois sombrace let's consider what happens as dna unwinds during replication as dna unwinds it acts like this rope when we pull apart its two strands as you pull the strands apart twisting tension builds up in the rest of the coiled portion it is actually adding one twist to the remaining rope for each twist pulled out of it at some point you can't separate the strands anymore the remaining rope is too tightly twisted if you relax your tension on the rope it will twist around itself in a super coil it is releasing tension if you want to keep pulling the rope apart you have to release the tension periodically and one way to do this is to cut the rope and splice it back together this problem has been best characterized in small circular dna's there are two methods of dealing with this problem in dna one cuts only one strand of the dna double helix and the other cuts both strands let's look at the first topois sombrace one enzymes cut a single strand of the double helix pass the other strand through the cut and reseal the break relaxing the overwhelmed molecule which now has one fewer twist topois sombrace two enzymes do the same thing but with both strands of the double helix topois sombrace two cuts both strands of a double stranded dna and passes another double strand through the break and then reseals the break so if a molecule of dna is supercoiled topois sombrace two can remove the supercoiling two twists at a time to yield a relaxed circle so that was the topois sombrace that's its action i'll point out why this is problematic for natural selection just for the topois sombrace then i'll point out why this is difficult to evolve going from a prokaryote to eukaryote if we assume that we have the topois sombrace inherited by common ancestry from the prokaryote the bacteria to the new eukaryote i'm going to highlight the reasons why but first off the topois sombrace in itself it's hard to evolve by natural selection it cuts let's say you have a topois sombrace ancestor all it can do is cut it doesn't ligate that or is that is to say it doesn't reconnect the dna pieces together it's going to shred the genome so the idea of an incremental evolution of this uh at least in those terms is outrageous it's ridiculous this is approved by contradiction not an argument from ignorance it's not going to happen by the way topois sombrace is a target disrupting it in chemotherapies we can kill cells by disrupting topois sombrace it's this life critical so um and then also if you have something that doesn't cut but it ligates that's pretty useless or if it cuts and ligates but doesn't untangle it's useless so the idea of incremental evolution of this from either a biogenesis or some protocell this is going to be very problematic uh so now the random mutation or natural selection is an adequate explanation but more to the point what happens if we're trying to inherit uh a topois sombrace that is in a bacteria to a eukaryote the major problem and the reason i'm glad i i showed the um the nuclear poor import export and if you'll remember in that video some of you will remember it uh the narrator mentioned the nuclear localization signal you can find uh the nuclear by the way since rj loves references and um i have five more minutes you can get this sequence from the uniprot database just type in top two top two a you'll get this sequence that's the human topois sombrace uh there are other topois sombraces if you're interested in that the nuclear localization signal was in a article uh called the by bipartite nuclear localization in topois armors you can google it you'll find it and as able to get the sequence right here it's highlighted in red that's the nuclear localization that's like a password for it to go through the nuclear poor complex so what's the point of this the phylogenetic diagrams i'm sorry let's see if i have it the phylogenetic diagrams was just sort of gloss over that problem but if it's not there and it whole just like a password if it's not spelled correctly it doesn't work and there's only one chance you get at this otherwise uh you know uh the creature's dead and so that's something that isn't that is an example where the phylogenetic reconstruction glosses over a serious problem and um let's see if there's anything else on the topi that's all i had on the topi sombrace as far as nuclear localization i'll point out that any other inherited uh any other inherited proteins that come from uh that supposedly got inherited from the bacteria to the eukaryotic form would also have to have nuclear localization signals inserted in them for them to work and the nuclear localization signal problem also is confronting this whole thing about endosymbiosis so that the extent that the mitochondria has lots of the 85 percent of nuclear genes that are part of uh end up uh coding the proteins in the mitochondria they need these localization signals too and on top of that there's localization this is the localization signals at the amino acid level um i haven't even talked about the mRNAs um their localization signals uh involved there it might be a little easier um because they may be on the poly A tails but these are things that you ask uh you're criticizing the ID community for not being interested in certain things it's partly because we're interested in these things because the evolutionists don't talk about because they don't have no solutions they only pretend to have them so i hand it off to you if you have any questions on this uh on the deal yeah um so that the the division mentioned dewey's that would be joseph dewey's the young earth creationist right i want to mention rga i promise i'll give you a chance to respond the only reason i'm jumping in is just to let people know that we'll probably go with another five to ten minutes and then we'll be jumping into the qna oh goody oh well actually um i'm uh rather than beating lay dead horse uh i think it'd be perfectly fine to go into qna because we did start late uh and they were bumping in and out and all that stuff so if it's okay with sal let's go with the qna i can't see any of the questions i i'm not watching the video so i don't know what kind of live chat or who's in that so i'll just depend on you james to act as the font of communication between that window and ours does my um i'd like to uh i'd like to just finish off the respond to the quick question that rj asks is that joe dewey's the young earth creationist he's an associate professor of biochemistry at lipscomb and an adjunct professor of vanderbilt university school of medicine oh yeah he's public i've got quite a few of his papers in my in my reference base he's one of the the body of young earth creationists that have published in regular technical literature often collaboratively with other people so um i'm fine with uh going to the qna you got it and folks want to let you know we are thrilled as up next at 8 p.m eastern tonight in other words in about an hour and a half this debate is happening namely t jump and nathan thompson are going to debate it out this will probably we'll take a break from flat earth debates probably for a while after this one it's going to be epic though folks you don't want to miss it and so that's going to be right here on this stream as we are doing a 12 hour non-stop stream of debates debate again and so first question thanks so much for yours answers and atheism says i have an after show to do an autopsy on sal after the debate juicy sal no response or comment than a question bubblegum gun thank you thank you for the super chat bubblegum gun says the best masterpiece movie is hard to be a god 1989 i've never heard is this a real movie rj i haven't heard of it either but there's a lot of movies i don't know about and and ruse thanks for your question says james just a reminder that you're the man thank you andrew you are the man we appreciate your support seriously and my name is mud thank you of course you're a man you're an endothermic vertebrate too thank you rj i've never heard such a sweet thing in all my life and john w thank you for your question says do not think we do not understand sal is a vet in parentheses as well as me while he defended us we got to learn and focus do not attack sal do not denigrate but educate that's kind john and that's a great opportunity for me to remind you folks want to encourage you attack the arguments as maliciously and with as much malevolence as you can however we do want to ask that you would not attack the person as we do appreciate them and you guys 99.9 of you do a fantastic job so we appreciate that pancake of destiny says if we are designed designer is not intelligent sal there are too many flaws in our bodies that could be fixed by the average dumb joe what do you say to that sal the average dumb joe cannot fix our problems otherwise we would have healed all diseases as i said creationism argues that the world is cursed and it is by god's design that he makes us know that we're not god so the flaws in our body are reminders and there are a lot of people that think they know better than god and so god is left reminders that we are flawed that we are mortal and we are diseased and we're in need of redemption and a savior to bring us into the next life so that's part of the intelligent design also dot gian although intelligent design movement tries to avoid that just as a demographic i'll point out the vast majority of intelligent designers are relatively conservative Protestants there are some jews and catholics knocking around in there and you get quasi agnostic free thinkers like michael dentin pops into that category that are technically non-believers and david brilinski but by and large it is a wink wink nudge nudge theology thing and i'll just say that the the designer uh isaii would have had no problem with the idea that everything bad and good is all due to god and that would include all the nasty diseases but it does make god kind of a sadist because they didn't realize how bad things were i'll give you the last word sal since the question was originally targeting you well we have self-destructive designs like fireworks and we also even have self-destructive biological designs monsanto built these uh terminator and trader seats so just the fact that something dies or self-destructs is not evidence against intelligent design the fact that the terminator trader seat self-destructing is pretty clever honestly chris peacock thanks for your super sticker do appreciate your support as well as john w says i trust sal and i know there is something out there we do not have faith in the same ideas but he is a brother even if not the same glad thanks john for your uh what's the word thanks for your kindness and pancake of destiny says if we are designed oh we got that one and thanks hynrich van new who's in thank you for your question says the design argument fails the laryngeal nerve in giraffes human eating and breathing via the same pathway the anus being so close to the sexual organ these are as i think they're trying to argue these are bad design examples sal go ahead we give you a chance to respond we don't know that they're bad design examples i i talked about the biophysicists that say we are excellently designed so uh but even a feature of bad design i mean real gullberg machines could be argued to be bad designs but they are not created for the benefit of the root gullberg machine they are meant to impress the viewers of just the ingenuity that something on the verge of collapsing actually can still work so uh and i dispute some of the claims about the laryngeal nerve and uh so um to take this just consider the question is a root gullberg machine designed or not it's irrelevant whether one would classify it as good or bad it's the improbability that's the real question oh by the way thanks to all that have been super chatting thank you uh for the question i'll just say from an evolutionary point of view bad design is not quite the term i would use contingent design uh the laryngeal nerve is a matter of where back when vertebrates were really early and didn't have long next to worry about that one nerve just went one way and another goes to the other and it's a nice neat compact thing in basal uh chordates but as the system changed there's no designer to say well maybe i could run it over here just as easily not a problem as things get longer and longer and longer the thing still has to loop around as the this system developed and there's a lot of contingent systems in that uh jackson wheat and i uh dealt with some of that in uh the rocks were there uh volume one book plug you got it and thank you very much for your let's see oh salgear given that the that i don't want to gang up on you so given that that last question was meant to challenge your position i'll give you the last word um i'll let rj have the last word so i'm done you got it thank you for the question you gave exactly the response that uh condensed down what you would find you could easily go to the destroyer joshua i was i was offering sal another chance to respond not you are okay joshua alec thank you for your question says sal you're sorry for interrupting rj just uh just to jump into you got a lot of questions sal says or uh joshua alec says sal your coin analogy doesn't hold water because it ignores selective pressures what is select uh thank you for the question i was referring specifically to a biogenesis the selective pressure is for disorganization that's demonstrated by the Gibbs free energy i have a reference from it somewhere uh from a uh steric chemistry book that's also true for the ribosis and all so uh the selection that the uh that the individual was posing is fantasized it's not what's actually seen in chemistry you got it and thank you very much for your question coming in from john w strikes again says stop rj as he is acting like a predator and taking over let's sal speak yeah well don't worry we're good and gordon fiala thanks for your super sticker as well as soldier of science who says sal is there a biological process you think isn't complex enough to be designed um i think there's some biological processes that don't have to be designed thank you for the question or i wouldn't bother arguing for it even if it is there's there's some and so um one i haven't really focused on those and um so sorry i can't give more substances answer it's not anything i really thought about so um but thank you anyway for uh donating to the modern day debate channel rj it looks like it sounded like you had something to add go ahead no no no i was just marveling at the response you got it and soldier of science says sal is got that one standing for truth thanks for being here says keep up the good work james one day i'll hopefully be able to rock that suit jacket as well as you do brother god bless thank you for your kind words standing for truth i promise as a result of such a kind message i will stop calling you standing for poop for at least two weeks so thank you for that i appreciate that but we all do appreciate standing for truth that he's been only a fortnight your only promise in a fortnight okay that's right and okay the batman with a uh trollish super chat let's see i think we've got more serious questions coming up so let me just reload this page and we'll look at those so want to mention in the meantime thank you very much folks our guests are linked in the description so that way if you want to hear more from them oh you certainly can by clicking on those links down below soldier of science with the question says sal your entire argument was an intelligent designer how do you get to a personal god after that though you wouldn't get it through uh thank you soldier of science for the question i believe the personal god has to reach out to each individual and so um it's really god finding us i had a vision when i was very young it's something i can't run away from there have been certain people that have um experienced miracles in their lives and a lot of them are on my channel uh it does raise the question why god would reach out to some and not others and i covered that on my channel i don't think that any answer to that is satisfactory but i don't think we can go from a um kind of the designer i described through quantum mechanics and the equations of physics and the arguments of paley's watch to the personal god that's something that god has to do for you doctor and joshua alex says sal selective pressures aren't limited to reproduction a crystal forms in its shape because chemical laws select that arrangement overall others um thank you for the point uh there is selection in a crystal formation but there is you can't really describe what happens in spontaneous isomerization and and i i could show these diagrams of like say the aldo pentoses you don't end up even though the chemical formula is i believe c5 h10 o5 um for the aldo pentoses they're like um there are at least eight major forms and even when in those there are other more isomers there's no you can't characterize that as selection because one of those forms the beta 2 the beta d2 um deoxyribose or ribose depending RNA or DNA thornus form is the one that is selected for the nucleic acids i mean that appears in the nucleic acid because there's no selection pressure for that there's actually if we are going to use the word selection which is really a misnomer it would be against that and um also for the consistent leakage i'd like to also promote changetan and rob stadler's book that actually cover that and um thank you for the question and sorry to disagree because we're having so much fun is there any discretion in those chemical bonds in other words could any gods decide to make oxygen not bond with stuff just by fiat i never thought of that sorry i don't have a good answer rg gotcha and food for thought this next question coming in from bubble gum gun says watch quote hard to be god 1989 put it on youtube gotcha i'm thinking they're saying like search for it on youtube sound movie plugs and john w with another question says i am 31 and do not play fortnite and as well just try and learn thank you john w we appreciate that and thank you very much anybody can make any sense out of what that meant let me know i'm confused by two cosmic reach says when it comes to observations we are working post the coin analogy makes an appeal to a pre infinity how do you fix this cell are you trying to prescribe what we are describing thank you for the question in the comment the coin analogy really really is to illustrate a mathematical abstraction that we we call the binomial distribution one doesn't need to appeal to infinity to describe the binomial distribution and the problem actually works really the problem it poses actually works well in finite universes when you only have a finite amount of time to be able to to mix the coins before they can be all heads so if i misunderstood on that very particular point i are in agreement okay you heard it we're in agreement so yeah binomial theorem it doesn't depend on an infinitely long universe that it would come up in any context one of the problems with working out a biogenesis issues is that the only things we have to look at are existing organisms that are a long way removed and we can't even tell how many lineages have died out along the way like the ancestor of the mitochondria gotcha and this question coming in from nick do appreciate it nick asks if an intelligently designing personal god existed wouldn't it be obvious to everyone instead of having to rely on god of the gaps arguments that's a great question nick i address the question of the hidden god on my channel and i'm obviously promoting this this is why i like debates it's a chance for free advertising but the question of the hidden god why would god be so hidden why isn't he as evident to our senses as the air we breathe that's that's a very legitimate question and that i would say that that's one of the main causes for atheism and my answer to that is and this is my interpretation and i believe it's consistent with with what's taught in the bible is that the hidden god mostly hidden god it says in proverbs 25 to it's the glory god to conceal a matter the glory kings that search it out and jesus also says that i thank you father heaven and earth that you've hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealed them to little children the mechanism the choice of god being hidden to most is a way that he can separate those who really want to pursue him from those that don't he makes it really easy for those who want to close their eyes and hence the design argument is one way it's subtle enough that if people want to close their eyes to it they won't see it and that's how that's one of the mechanisms that he uses to uh separate those who want to pursue the christian god versus those who don't and that's my answer that's not a scientific answer thank you for the question this one from and of course all the other religions get to play too and what evolved evolves is that human beings make up the little fiddly bit details to fill in all of the hidden parts which is most of it sorry next one tape deck i was just watching sal's face that's the only reason i'm laughing tape deck says do sal or rj believe an intelligent mind can exist without a brain i believe in a disembodied the possibility of the disembodied intelligence um that was that was really kind of the suggestion when i showed the laws of physics and then i quoted the physicists the assumption is uh whatever that mind is it's uh composed differently than the minds here and um you know by way of extension one could postulate disembodied minds to there was a physicist paul davies that talked about this in one of his books i actually never read it would be interesting read so thank you for the question yeah we're we're sort of in an other rare instance of agreement i don't rule out in principle disembodied supernatural entities as well the question is is there really good evidence that they interact and if they are interacting in time space then now we can potentially delineate whether or not they're doing anything here versus somewhere else and my general position would be that based on the history of like the god of abraham tales is that that one is not even a contender because the narratives there don't match up with what we can see in nature and all the other religions have the same problem next up thank you for their comment you got it this one coming in from jc 93013 says sal provide irrefutable indisputable proof of god uh i can't because i'd have to be god to do that but thank you for the question um i people ascent to god or no god um well people ascent to god be through faith it's not by direct proof so it is a gadget question and i'll give you euler's answer he once is alleged i guess to have written on the blackboard e to the power plus one equals zero therefore god and dared anybody to disagree with him on it so there's all sorts of people who want to find routes to god can find them people who don't won't juicy bubblegum guns says seriously watch quote hard to be god 1989 i've seen so many movies this is just a masterpiece above all must see before you die is that the second plug for that it is he's a really big fan and nick thanks for your question says is a hidden god not indistinguishable from no god i think that's for you sal oh thank thank you for the question uh if it's hidden from your eyes i i guess it wouldn't be indistinguishable but uh you know i i i believe that it's not completely hidden if it were completely hidden we'd have no chance but i think there is evidence and that's what we were talking here today and then additionally like i said a lot of people on my channel that are christians believe that they've witnessed miracles so to them god isn't hidden in in in their lives um that does pose other theological problems but uh you know i'm just you know i can only represent my experiences that i i believe i've seen miracles and i believe i've talked to people who are credible witnesses like astronaut charles duke who healed a bright blind girl after praying in the name of jesus i would consider that um not so hidden so thank you for the question nick and thank you very much john w for your question says i am the only vet i know on here besides sal and who else defends their home when did your knowledge help or else for the country and being a man for it all not just what you were doing um was that a question or could you read i'll read it one more time shake your head and go what i was i'll shake with it i was hoping you guys would have gotten it because i didn't john w says i am the only vet i know on here besides sal and who else defends their home sal you gotta is that it you gotta go you big on now not makes sense i wanted to say uh john w i think um because you saw me on a pilot outfit uh you thought i was a veteran i i apologize i think you showed up on my channel and thank me for being a veteran i'm not i worked uh as a defense contractor and i also built machines to help veterans i mean active duty um soldiers and sailors and pilots uh both here and in kuei so uh along this lion's happy memorial day weekend to everyone body and i'd like to thank all the veterans who protected the united states in particular um i'd like to just say thanks to them to the veterans most of them had passed away who liberated my mother's village in world war two she lived in the philippines and the japanese occupied it and a lot of very fine young men died so that she could live and we could be here and so a blessed memorial today a memorial day to all the families of our veterans thank you another another thing we can agree on sal amen to that thank you anybody thank you agreed anybody who has served thank you so much for serving we do appreciate it and uh we initially i i thought he was thinking that the guy was saying that he was a veterinarian and neither one of the sort of veterinarians but then you know so now it makes sense they said when did your knowledge so they they asked john w had more of a question coming from that said when did your knowledge so i think they're referring to you sal help or else for the country and being a man for it all not just what you are doing i think maybe like they're saying what was like the broader bigger thing for the country overall that you think you contributed i'm not sure um i kind of read the question a little differently um and i'll just give my take is that yes when did i get the knowledge to um or when did it start to help me it was when i nearly left the christian faith and i studied science and then i've always been very patriotic for the reasons i stated you know when my mom keeps telling me the story of when she was alive of how wonderful it was to have her homeland liberated in her village and um that's why i value the freedoms we have in this country and what it's done and it's a glorious thing that someone would lay down their lives to uh liberate a third world country and i'm eternally grateful for that gosh although technically at the time it was a colony of the united states yes next up this one coming in from do appreciate it mic ghost lovin thanks for your awesome question and i appreciate your question your name they said did god create e mary iwana i don't know what e mary iwana is but they said merely to tempt me sal what are your thoughts i don't know i think he might be referring to that mary jane's stuff oh i see you're right that makes sense increasingly legal in many states including my own in colorado and other places you're you live in colorado too mm wait you don't you don't live in washington state oh okay you said and color we passed an initiative here in colorado did it there last time i was in denver the place was sprouting marijuana shops like dandelions in summer oh yeah what are your thoughts sal um that's a really good question why would god make marijuana and i don't have an answer i'm sorry so i would presume all things were made prior to the fall of man for our our delight and pleasure so this is so there could be a high church don't say that don't take that as an endorsement to indulge in drug drugs now so juicy i'm not a pot smoker so i don't have a a dog in this hunt you got it and thank you for your question ian chen is in the house says by rj and jackson's book the rocks we're there do it now got you thank you very much ian chen and also thank you very much for your question this one coming in from john w says i am canadian thanks that was the person who just mentioned uh that you guys are both vets thank you john w for being with us and that goes for everybody folks as always want to let you know modern day be neutral debate platform we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you are from i am not a veteran by no i i narrowly missed going to vietnam in 1969 but my draft number was too high for that but no i'm not a veteran oh you bet you got it and then x florio thank you very much for your question says evolution ontologically would have to be a metaphysical mechanism but how can a metaphysical mechanism exist in an atheist materialist worldview that for either one of them i'll take it yep the um ironically in principle an origins of life issue could still be a miraculous phenomenon and then everything after that completely naturalistic evolution that there's all sorts of options going on in here um it mo if you are an atheist and you don't believe in magick's bergel gods that are meddling in designing stuff then in principle you do indeed need to work out how life managed to originate at some point and it's an ongoing piece of research an interesting one none of that will make all the evidence for evolution after that go away gotcha and thank you very much thanks for the question i i have no you got it this one coming in south had a comment think hold on i might miss one i'm gonna just quick scan see that i got it this next one coming in from do appreciate your question pro social pessimists this isn't per se regarding the biology in terms of ill intelligent design but they're asking why would god sal why would god make so many parts of the earth inhospitable well thank you for the question i've never i've actually never thought about that although actually one could say there are many places in the universe in fact most places in the universe are inhospitable and so i would argue that the inhospitability is a pointer that we are special we live on a privileged planet and i do think some parts of the earth has become inhospitable because of after the fall that the main point of the inhospitability of the universe in general is pointing that we are a very special place in the universe and professor of mine james treville said everything we've learned recently or in last 20 years when you were at the book uh he said i'm not a particularly religious man but um in light of everything we've learned in the last 20 years uh i'd say that we are special in god's sight gotcha i would argue that inhospitability that everywhere is inhospitable in some way or another there are earthquakes floods uh tornadoes uh locusts um plague tectonics all of these things are happening so that there's very few places anywhere that are potentially idyllic and free from potential problem the the main thing is we as a species going way back even before homo sapiens into the homo erectus are extremely adaptable and diverse and in the case there's been several andes in tibet of where natural mutations have uh led to a greater adaptation for extreme high altitude to where uh regular folk who go up there are gasping for breath because of the lack of oxygen but the thing has evolved since then and the papers on the technical evolution of that so um everywhere is inhospitable unless we make it otherwise that's the human thing gotcha and ian chen says congrats sal on your published paper yes it was more of a press release uh it was in the facet journal the federation of american societies for experimental biology uh may 14th we um we talked about uh a a a software implementation of an algorithm that was published in 2012 and the author of that algorithm uh kirk durstin was actually on the team were able to in for a protein structure by doing cross species analysis like say we'll take a taupe isomerase from the plant we'll take it from a um a dog or a human we'll put this we'll do a multiple sequence alignment the evolutionary biologists know what i mean if you pump it through the algorithm it can um algorithm various algorithms can predict the 3d protein structure and then our algorithm also predicts um chemical inter possibility of chemical interactions so that was a big deal to be god willing more publications yeah along that line don't be surprised if evolutionists make use of it and come up with conclusions you may not like juicy mike q922 thanks for your question says what are your thoughts on theistic evolution could be either of you if you want to respond a while i'll go if sal doesn't or sal go ahead um i think it's uh we can argue against it on scientific rounds and then it would be if it fails scientifically which i've tried to argue that at the very least it has problems that would preclude it from being accepted um on the level say of electromagnetic theory that then um until it gains really more traction as uh and solved all these problems there's no reason to accept it is truth um certainly not or not truth certainly not gospel certainly not gospel and i'll point out there's passages in the new testament where Jesus turned water into wine so to the extent that um one sees problems in biology that are best solved by a miracle then there's no need to invoke theistic evolution of you if one already accepts other miracles in the bible so those are my thoughts yeah a theistic evolution suffers from some of the same problems that intelligent design and creationism do in that they aren't terribly good at working out a model that uh if you look at swamadas and various other people that it starts getting foggy at the detail level and you would like to know what exactly where was the god doing stuff in this particular sequence and so it's all the same map of time modeling issue that's the difficulty if you're comfortable uh theistic evolutionists are one that will be accepting more of the standard science and attempting to incorporate it into their theological perspective uh your um and this is a paleontologist uh robert asher various ones in that regard um if they are much more finicky about which branches of the theology that they're willing to accept that may preclude in principle any form of evolution theistic or otherwise and and finally michael b he might be considered he was an intelligent design advocate some people would consider him a theistic evolutionist where there's universal common ancestry but then some sort of design along the way yeah michael and gunter beckley the all that in principle accept a common ancestry i will put it with the caveat it's a meaningless concession in that they never apply it to anything so it's just off their floating again as a thing oh yeah i accept that in this case this case this case and then suddenly boop it's gone gotcha and this question coming in from we do appreciate it josh wellak says rj do you know what a proto cell might have looked like or what structures would be required for something to be called a proto cell ooh very good question uh i think if you look at the various researchers in the field they need to have several things happening together as a unit although not necessarily that each one of these things happened to happen all at once it's going to have to have a metabolic system that's bringing energy into the thing to fuel it that probably has to have occurred first otherwise anything that develops replication which is one of the other factors is going to eat itself out of house and home so i'm definitely a metabolism first person if it had a naturalistic origin the third element definitely is the membrane system which brings up the pores and all the little things that uh sal was alluding to in the videos which is why they're they're useful pieces of information to do up and i will say this as a gauntlet issue is that it's perfectly fine for sal and intelligent designers and creationists to be throwing down these where you can't explain this and you can't explain this precisely because it acts as a prod to the scientific community to continue to do work in the field don't be surprised that they're going to continue to figure this out but nonetheless from that point of pot stirring it's perfectly going to bring it up so you've got membranes you've got replication and you have metabolism now the one unanswered question that we have is are there other answers to those systems than the ones that we know of that is inferred from the last universal common ancestor luca from which all organisms developed and we don't know the answer to that there may have been alternate versions which they may well be encountering in a biogenesis work experimentally that might have been dominant systems at one time or another first 100 million years and then fizzled out as a new competitor that eventually becomes luca so there's still an awful lot that isn't known about this but can i conceptualize the basic boundary layers yeah and i think most of biogenesis people can at least the ballpark of what needs to be done juicy this one from bubble bubble gum gun says there are multiple gods not just one and other entities so stick that in your pipe and smoke it sell margo margo what do you think i have thank you for the comment i do have a pipe and i like captain black tobacco you got it and we are pumped you guys as we've got maybe one more question that we can fit in and then also want to let you know a whole baby you guys this debate coming up at 8 p.m eastern in other words about 55 minutes from now t jump and nathan thompson are going to collide on flatter so it's going to be juicy spoiler alert the earth isn't flat it's going to be juicy i'd uh marshal the meat profit thank you very much for your question says sal why do so many people have experiences of gods that are not the christian god does god appear as christina or are those people mistaken if so how do you know christians aren't mistaken we don't um thank you for the question and that is a very probing question the uh can you repeat the question god i do this is a such a good one i want to try to do it justice roughly speaking i'll summarize like paraphrase it so people have these other experiences of other gods like christina or whoever whether it be near death experiences or maybe even just you know things that experience throughout their lives and so if you would say that they're not real well then how do you know that people's experiences or alleged experiences of jesus aren't real i don't think anyone in the ultimate sense or absolute sense can establish one way or the other we accept certain things by faith like we do a lot of things in in life we have incomplete information we make decisions on it but i do acknowledge that other people of other faiths have experienced miracles the christian answer to that is that um if they are legitimately supernatural that they are not a christian god they are the devil and that's why it was very important when jesus was casting out demons that um his miracles are better so that's that's about the best response i can give and thank you for the logical point of view i'll just say that the vast majority of people on the planet tend to believe whatever religion of their local group is so people who are raised in a christian environment believe in christianity people who come into the hindu environment are believing in hinduism and so forth and so on uh the one outlier group are budists where a large proportion of budists live in cultures where buddhism is not the majority religion now psychologically individual people some will be more attracted to the religion of the culture some will want to hunt there there's something that's invalid or inaccurate or they get that the hypocrisy of it and they settle on a religion that's an outlier group and so there's a whole pure research uh follows these kinds of things uh uh sociology of religion people and is it very interesting subject that as a non-believer is a fascinating thing why why do people believe stuff and why do they end up with the particular beliefs they do gotcha and this one coming from steven steen nasty guy says i think this is directed toward you rj says ooh girl don't you stop don't you stop till you get enough honey ooh honey honey pie honey honey honey pie oh i think that is a song lyric although i'm not familiar with it i will counter with ooh e ooh ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang that's really hot h a w t uh so we want to let you know folks our guests are linked in the description we are thrilled want to let you know we really do appreciate them we are going to i'm going to be hanging around here in between as we have our intermission leading up to the big debate tonight with nathan thompson and t jump which is pictured right here on the bottom right of your screen so who baby it's going to be epic want to say thank you rj and sal it's been a true pleasure to have you guys i think it was a fun and informative discussion i think it brought up an awful lot of interesting things i'm going to be looking into and all the rest and uh i it's fun doesn't matter to anything we're just a video debate but still it was fun um and thank you rj for suggesting the debate i just got a a letter from mr coons here that uh you wanted an opponent and so i got volunteered and oh i i had a completely different understanding that he had set up a thing with with you on the debate are you are you trying to to edge us together james you know coming along there like the person doing the movie thing saying hey i've got uh this big star in here there's all settled and you use that as bait to bring the other person in are you into that thing james that's funny believe me i've thought about it but no so i can't remember i'm trying to remember what i said to you guys i know that i figured i was like have you guys debated before because people always love new matchups and so i we have interacted in previous circumstances you know i just wanted to say i don't have your email um rj oh well let me get um if in the in the private chat window i'll stick my email in there and the reason i'm saying that is out of courtesy i am inviting you to my nine p.m show on the history of id and creationism it's i'm not arguing whether it's right or wrong it's just the history what what what time is that at nine p.m so you can oh i may be otherwise engaged so okay i have to view it afterwards but anyway email once the show is done then because i can always comment on it in the in the stream afterwards yeah so you see my email in there yes i'm gonna um i'm gonna grab it right now and uh so speaking of which at nine p.m i'm having a show on my channel on the history of creationism intelligent design creation science etc and um i did try to invite people like cutsick goodman yeah docker at my own website they'll find the tip 1.6 and 1.7 are of history and commentary on creationism from its main roots in the early 20th century and then the intelligent design movement and its interactions up to the dover trial so that's another shameless plug from my website you've got it so thank you everybody 100 everybody stay safe we're still not out of the woods on covid the little bastards mutate you got it and so we want to say thank you sal and thank you rj we'll be back in a moment folks with a post credit scene or you could say an intermission and thanks so much for being with us we're excited for this upcoming debate in 48 minutes be right back in just a moment spoiler alert the earth isn't flat for several things so one is thanks for being here guys i i do want it now it's like fine it's nice i finally have some time to say hello to everybody as oh it's been just a busy day so we've been four debates today folks we are pumped about that we are excited about what's going on here at modern day debate as it has been a blast and it's always a blast to do this channel and also to do this you could say marathon stream or debate again so want to say hello to you there in the old live chat and you guys this debate tonight going to be epic so stick around as it's going to be fun and you just hang out here we're going to chat just get to say hi to you as nice andrew coffin thanks for coming by as well as flat earth guy and hannah anderson thanks for your support who says thank you everyone everyone for participating in today's debate either watching or commenting in chat we appreciate each one of you take a moment to hit the like button for the channel and subscribe and hit that notification bell thank you hannah for reminding people of that i'm pinning that to the top of the chat as yeah folks please do hitting that like button does encourage me you could say it motivates me to do more because it's just encouraging it's like more people are like yeah this is fun like let's keep doing this and so please do hit that like button as that motivates me to put out more videos and so we do appreciate you folks want to say hi and oh we have so many cool announcements to talk about but sasha g thanks for coming by as well as bo smith glad you're here and sky out good to see you again as well as jc 93013 93013 as yes mitchell good to see you again as well and then master optics and pancake a destiny good to see you badger bush glad you made it as well as marshal the meat puppet thanks for saving the debate last week with nephilim free that was a lot of fun and then cabinator thanks for coming by as well as canite pumped you made it david anthony thanks for coming by as well and h jasper e says looking good james thank you h jasper here that's really kind of you and bob saddler thanks for coming by we're glad you're here and king of hearts 1722 thanks for being here i'm open to setting up the debate because flat earth aussie if i said that we were going to i think you're right i do remember saying that we would host a debate between you and leo i think it was leo no it was dapper so i'm open to that we can do that it's not like this will be the last flat earth debate of all time tonight like i am open to hosting that and even relatively soon so timo good to see you and timo was right timo said earlier today the reason the stream has 18 dislikes is because some of our viewers are from australia so we appreciate you no matter what country no matter what location no matter what planet in case this is kind of being like beamed up to a different planet we appreciate you watching modern a debate we are by the way as a side note hoping to host a debate on the alien you could say we're hoping to host a discussion on the big alien news that's supposed to drop next month you know just this june so we are excited for that i'm looking for people somebody that i might be able to call and kind of say once the news breaks like hey you up for that debate still and we're excited to have that topic but secured by said which debate is next it is still the nathan thompson versus tjump one and it's going to be epic and that'll be our last one for the night as we've been going since it's been 9 30 my time this morning so that means 11 30 a.m eastern so right now it's going on 7 30 so it's been a while already and we're excited though alex shannon says what up james thanks for coming by alex and thanks john belosi for your kind word says thanks james thanks modern a debate we appreciate that john and mitchell says epic marathon james thank you for your thumbs up thanks for your kind words bo smith that's encouraging really do appreciate that and oliver catwell good to see you glad you made it says hi james and then let me put a countdown on screen i'm going to show you i just want to put a countdown for the next debate is uh that way if people pop in and they're like what it was going on like why are you guys what are you doing right now uh set a timer for 40 minutes yeah so we are going to put that countdown on screen and that way you can see that we are pumped for this upcoming debate and we are ready for it as we have this little window capture i'm just going to use a google a little google uh timer here and pull that into obs so give me two seconds but how are you guys doing i always like hearing from you i hope you're doing well and i am pumped you guys i am just glad to be here we want to say thanks kaz for filling in his moderator recently i know that stream yards the rumor is stream yards which is what most people use nowadays i think that's probably the most common it i guess was like pretty it was kind of crashing yesterday and so yikes like look out for that and oh this is fitting quite nice yeah there we go so let me put it like this nice is we are excited folks this upcoming debate's going to be epic i am thrilled nathan nathan got back to me said he's ready so he's not i was i was waiting for it to hear back and i was like okay good he's coming but cosmic breach thanks for coming by as well as bobby the butcher and thank you so much john w for your kind words and being with us oliver catwall though good to see you i hope you're doing well and over there hopefully it's not too warm let me know i'm curious what the weather's like over there and then thank you for your super chat from oh i didn't see there too that came in tim prier thanks for your super chat said is this going to be an old debate with nathan thompson or a new one this is going to be a brand new one so this is going to be live and that's coming up in 38 minutes nathan thompson and tjump will be debating and it'll yeah so it'll be you can if you want to ask questions during it you can it's going to be fun and we'll have a full three hours for it in case there are a lot of questions and then jc 93013 says i listen to the channel's debates daily at work and at the gym especially during cardio lol i'm close to have listening to them all thanks james wow you have listened to a lot that's for sure if you've listened to almost all of them we've got we put on about 600 debates here so thank you so much for all of your support that's encouraging though that the channel is so useful to you and folks a lot of you maybe don't know modern day debate is available via podcast and i encourage you hey while you're waiting for this upcoming debate let me show you this whatever your favorite podcast app is you can see on the far right of this screen you can see up there we've got spotify apple podcasts or even on audible and amazon music in pandora so i mean like pretty much every platform you can think of pull out your phone right now if you haven't yet and open up your podcast app and then click on modern day debate you will see oh baby modern day debate is available via podcast and you don't want to miss it folks we're excited about that as i've been encouraged a lot of people are like hey yeah i listen to the podcast all the time it's really useful people some of them will listen while they're on a long drive some of them will listen to it while they are working out some all sorts of different things cleaning the house i hope that's useful to you and we're encouraged that the podcast has grown a lot in the in our first year the podcast has done really well and that's super encouraging so i'm just excited about that that it's apparently useful to people so also thank you for your super chat tim priors says all right i'm going to play a game i'll take a shot every time he says cool story bro that's juicy i'm excited for it you might want to be careful with that and also kango 2 forces james pump for the fighter debate please do not edit the super chats when reading them if they are not super offensive yeah you know that's the trick is like we got to be consistent though so it's like if they're teasing i mean i can let you know uh what the line is but we can't we don't want to read insults to the guests because the guests don't want to come back if they get trashed personally so if it's like oh so and so is so ugly which amazingly i see sometimes people say that and i'm like why like people that's an extreme case so i know kango 2 4 you don't do that but i'm just saying that like that's an extreme case where like we'd be like no because think about it this way folks we are a debate platform and if the debaters don't want to come back and they're like screw james like i feel like people treat me like garbage well then how is this a sustainable channel it won't work we won't exist because if people aren't coming on a debate i was like well how is that supposed to work and so long story short i would just say if you just you know it's it's fine to like needle or tease like little things like that are okay but genuine insults like i i have to be consistent and treat everybody the same whether they be flat earth or globe earth or christian atheists whatever i mean we're radicals about tolerance and equality so a lot of people would be like oh you shouldn't even platform flat earthers that's so irresponsible and they cry and it's very sad to see you know these grown grown adults crying in their corn flakes over this and i say hey very sad that you can't handle this and very sad that they claim to be so tolerant oh we're so tolerant oh but then at the same time they're like oh you shouldn't platform that person or that idea so my thing is hey if we're going to say we're tolerant if we're going to say we're really all about equality then we're going to do everything that youtube allows us to for real you might be like what what why is youtube the standard oh realistically let's be practical there are a lot of channels that started and they were big and they were on youtube and if they get kicked off not very sustainable i have to be honest i gotta thank youtube they recommend a lot of our videos and that's helped us grow a lot you know so if we want to keep going with the momentum that we have yeah we play by youtube's terms of service i mean why would we want to get kicked off a platform that's helped us immensely because like i said the amount of uh what's the word i'm looking for the amount of impressions namely that how many times youtube recommends our videos it's astounding and partly because you've got 600 debates or so partly i mean there's a lot of reasons but long story short that's why we go by youtube standards k-124 says urr can you really expect us to not tease nathan thompson i will plead the fifth not teasing but marshall the meat puppet says no problem well thanks for being here marshall and sigurd by thank you for being with us i'm going to catch up with the chat it started moving on me so give me a second and squat shot good to see you thanks for coming by cosmic breach says any polls before the show spoiler alert the earth is a bag of bread ah no no polls that would have been cool but it's just been so busy that i haven't gotten to it zodiac 13 says so why are you still platforming nathan oh wow that's crazy i said the way he treated maddie was a disgrace so here's the thing zodiac 13 i gotta be honest like the worst that nathan said to maddie like calling her a bookworm it comes off as a little patronizing when you're like oh doc how dare you let a lady be exposed to that listen she's a lot tougher than you give her credit for so you're like sad like kind of white night stuff right now it looks seriously so weak need and pathetic i mean it's just like nobody buys it believe me i in fact i gotta tell you when i see people cry and they they cry like this like i said i i'm like hey you know what just makes me more motivated to do that sorry i mean some people are just like that so i just i get my jollies off of uh triggering you know people who do the white nighting stuff i think it's so patronized because maddie's a tough person i mean like i said maddie can handle being called a bookworm okay and the funny thing is a lot of people like oh but james it was maddie and it's like there have been other people that nathan has been you know calling them a bookworm or worse and people don't say anything and so i'm like hey are you doing this because you have some sort of like extra protectiveness over women or i'm serious it really it's like hey if you want to be all about equality you got to do it and that means that if if nathan goes hardcore he calls someone a bookworm we got to let him do that just like we let him do that to a guy so i mean the sad thing very sad but bubble gum gun thanks for your super chest it only made her debaters stick around for all debates i don't know what that means but we are glad you're here and timothy brice thanks for coming by satis jump plus nathan equals epic thank you james we are pumped for it and it's going to be epic timothy so thank you for your support that means a lot and nicolas procline proclamer of messiah thank you for coming by oh that's right i've got to change the thumbnail to the current debate so let me change it to the upcoming debate and that way it's up for the next half hour or so and toto caca thank you for coming by we are pumped you are with us and we're catching up squash chop thanks for says hope you're holding out well i am it's been a long day but i feel real surprisingly good i've only had one cup of coffee it's crazy and i feel great but oliver catwell says it's winter here quote unquote so down in the low 50s at night hottest during the day is only about 75 wow that's crazy that's cool though good for you no pun intended it's cool bruce wane thanks for coming by and then kango 24 let's see two seconds and pro social pessimist says glad you got to my question earlier it seems this browser won't let me link paypal so i can't do live chats here and or can't do super chats no worries and pancake of destiny says take shot when you hear a lie only the strongest revive juicy and thanks benevolent intelligence says hey james love the channel has any debate you have moderated change your position on any topic and if so what was it yeah it has i don't want to say it because i want to try to be as neutral as humanly possible but i've definitely heard it's more like responses to arguments where i was like oh i've never heard that before and then sam hears his bulldog says will there ever be a debate about anti natalism on the channel it's a hot topic yes i want to i've reached out to um benatar but he's been busy every time i've gotten ahold of him so we haven't hosted it yet but we want to and then tusk beatbox says hey james thanks for coming by tusk because i still love the channel community but the new guidelines for mods is not working for me totally okay i'm just refreshing this says i loved having a place a please to chat and uh in discuss opinions can you unmod me yes i'm totally okay doing that i know that so moderators want to just quick address a few things one don't feel obligated we you know like i appreciate you being so open and honest about it um tusk beatbox is tusk said hey you know i and the reason is we have these new rules and we we understand like nobody should feel obligated to be a moderator because some of the moderators i understand if they don't like the if you don't like the uh what's the word i'm looking for rule that we are asking moderators to no longer take a stance i understand how that could be like kind of like oh man like i like having fun like why are you doing that to me and so i totally understand if you're kind of like turned off don't feel obligated and it's totally okay and then nero says james i have some sources that say you're a thicker than a snicker that's pretty gross if i think you're meaning what you mean but gc 9093013 is asking natalie why he arrest schools children a personal attack so i won't uh ask him so i won't get banned yeah i mean so that's the kind of thing that in any other context we would be like pretty clearly you're trying to antagonize the speaker so it's kind of like i i don't it's not what we're looking for and then thanks marshall said i sent you a copy of uh an email about the copy of my debate so sorry about that marshall i'll try to get back to you asap and i'm sorry about being super slow um and tim prior thanks for your super chat said i just got going to do five shots right now then after five times of him saying it i will super chat six shots seven shot eight shot floor that's funny you're a funny guy um and then thanks amanda for your moderator help and ironclad says you missed me too i said hi earlier sorry about that ironclad it's the chat's been moving on me but kevin crunch said what do you have against weakening people i have surgery and i can't help it that's funny thenos marvel said what's the 180 this morning you were completely different attitude guess not only are you biased but a liar wow thenos marvel's triggered well don't worry thenos marvel we're glad you're here i don't mind what you say you're a stranger on the internet so thenos marvel let's see last all your good mods dude what a joke you will wow look being really mad that's funny so the trick is we have asked our moderators to not take a stance and some moderators don't like that and so it's true that some moderators are angry about that namely we don't want them debating people in chat so it's a hard thing i mean because i know a lot of people they want to debate but we are wanting to push the neutrality such that we have like full neutrality in the sense that the moderators aren't even taking a stance and so hey it's totally okay if moderators are unhappy about that and they want to leave like they don't have to feel obligated that's okay like we have no hard feelings kango 2 forces t-jump completely dismantled one of nathan's victims wits it gets it and a flat earth debate this is going to be brutal of the channel james thank you kango for your support and then pro social pessimist says just watch the dude who is behind the game changers on the g re he shut the apologist up and even joe sided with him i've never seen that let's see i have no idea what you're talking about but thank you marshal for your patience and i just caught up with chat so what i'm going to do is looking for doodly do but yeah it's always we've we've been doing this for a couple of days i think we announced it like a week ago that we want to ask the moderators to not debate people in the chat so we do appreciate that and then thank you for your kind words davos holdos stay stoic 100 percent you as well my friend and then what i'm going to do is i have to walk to the restroom in a moment because i desperately have to go to the bathroom but and then pan cake destiny says the mods always kept the channel neutral despite their beliefs well there were mods though that sometimes would be debating controversial topics and clearly be taking on a stance so like if it's like let's say abortion or whatever and a moderator is pushing really hard for the pro life or the pro choice position that's where we're like eh people are going to think of this as uh yeah so but we do appreciate all of the people that are like letting us know and we have no hard feelings if people are like oh then i'm gone and the reason is well basically we don't want people to get the idea that we're a non-neutral channel so that's why we're looking for moderators who are going to not say their opinions or you could say not debate people and so we are glad you were here coffee troll good to see you and king of hearts as well as captain crunch thank you captain crunch appreciate your kind words says all jokes aside mad respect for keeping it fair it's why i come here thank you captain crunch we appreciate that and squash talks that i need skeptics for squash talk that sounds juicy that might work i mean there are probably a lot of skeptics out there um squash talk they can't be that hard to find um but let me what i'm gonna do is um there's like a lot of this channel in fact squash talk like we we host them all the time but what i'm going to do is upload this thumbnail and then i've got to quick use the restroom i desperately have to use the restroom see even steen in the house thanks for your kind words shane somers says you've been doing a great job so far thank you i appreciate that shane seriously we're excited about the future and where the channel is going and i'm honestly i'm just pumped so i do appreciate everybody's support it really does mean more than you guys know and also though just updated the thumbnail i'm about to use the restroom i've got to go i'll be back in a moment folks don't worry i might even pop in on the live chat because i'm going to bring my phone to the restroom i'm pumped all right thank you gang i'm pumped let me see here i've got to see if i've got this right but it was so much but yeah i would say i know that some people are like man i want to be able to debate and i want to you know be able to debate in the chat and so i would say you're able to we just don't want moderators to because it otherwise sometimes by a random chance what happens is we have let's say it's a night where we have any particular topic by coincidence we sometimes have like overwhelmingly all the moderators are you know flattered or globerth or christian or atheist whatever it is and then it's like that's it's not good because then people who are coming to the channel for the first time they're like huh why are these moderators arguing with me and telling me that you know x is the one true position or you know whatever and then they're like i'm kind of turned off and they think that it's the channel that's actually taking the stance when it's not and so that's the reason so sin finnity thanks for coming by as well as john polosi says thank you for providing this terrific forum thank you that seriously means a lot we do appreciate that and then rolling rock thanks for coming by as well as reverend are no good to see you again in allen h but yes it is going to be a juicy one tonight and kango two forces will this be our in raw part two no it's going to be the entire debate believe me it's not going to end early and oxts is james when do you pause to eat food dude i had some food earlier i might have a snack before i go to bed in fact i am going to have a snack i'm going to get my chicken nathan arse is amazing and zebulon 181 we are glad you are here as well as ironclad and then let's see dj oh glad you came by i said all the nonsense about the earth being flat isn't really a debate have you added it just for a comedy interlude it is we're going to get to the bottom of it tonight whether or not it is flat or a globe and alan h says can i ask if nathan actually has evidence of the flat earth yes that's fair game and to potsel but the thing is yeah so i mean i'm it is intriguing that a lot of the people who uh yeah so long story short i want to remind you uh potsel thanks for being with us that don't forget to plug the crowdfund and say hi to twitch you're right sorry about that vinny anderson thanks said not to mention it could scare off potential new debaters that's true yeah i do want to mention this crowdfund you guys we are excited about this so oh yeah the timer went away so there it is let me show you this you guys we are pumped as this crowdfund it's going to be epic folks let me show you this right now so i'm loading up this page for the upcoming debate on the shape of the earth with t jump and good old nathan thompson the uh so it's going to be juicy but i do want to show you this namely put this away and then let me pull this up and you're going to be amazed as we are seriously thrilled and this today one of the reasons why we were doing the stream is we wanted to see how much we could raise for this epic crowdfund we only have six days left like it's legitimately only six days for reaching our goal for this epic event and so let me find out where i put it that's not it there it is meter okay so meter we move this up and then there we go so hopefully you should be able to see this meter on the far right of your screen folks we are excited about this and we want to let you know if you have not yet joined the crowdfund we're pumped for it and that is for this come upcoming debate so the bottom right screen bottom right of your screen evidence for god debate between matt delahunty and dr kenny rhodes this is a way for us to basically say thank you so much to the speakers this is going to be a huge like mainstream type debate or you could say like a main event type of debate you don't want to miss it it's going to be absolutely epic and so i do absolutely want to encourage you like folks this is going to be awesome and we have a crowdfund for it so on the far right of your screen you can see that kind of there's that pink purple meter on the far right we are raising funds for covering the honorariums and this is something that we are absolutely determined to make happen folks it is absolutely necessary we meet the goal of the which we're close to we're at 79% you guys this is absolutely epic and so we're determined to make that goal and we need to make that goal in order for this event to happen namely the debate between matt delahunty and dr kenny rhodes and who we're at 80% now so i've got to update it so thanks so much to the person who just gave as we jumped up by another 25 dollars and so thank you we do appreciate it and we're determined folks like we really will make this and so we are pumped want to show you this oopsie let me load this back up so now you can see it on screen we're at 2,800 which is 80% of our goal we are going to make it folks we are way we are way beyond 50% and let me show you as of right now let me tell you this debate that you're seeing on screen we want to have it be such that the live stream is public but here's the trick if not because last time what we did is we had the live stream where the live stream was private and you had to put it into the Kickstarter or the i should say crowdfund in order to watch it live and this time we're like well we want it to be public not just afterwards because last time we did release it to the public a couple days after the debate this time we're like well let's see if we can do it where the live show itself is being watched but if we don't have enough people throw into the crowdfund and they're kind of like i'm just going to watch it live and i'm not going to throw in it's like well we might actually switch it to where it's like well we're going to actually make it such that the live viewing is private and if you don't throw in like a buck or three bucks it is is like the lowest amount but i think you can throw in even a dollar and basically we might switch it basically such that you'd have to throw into the crowdfund to watch it live otherwise you'd have to wait a couple days for when it comes out and then it's you're not live obviously so we want to encourage you if you've been considering you're like i've thought about giving to it but i'm not sure i want to say please now is a great time to do it as you guys it's only six days left like there's not a lot of time left we have to make this goal we're determined to make this goal and so i want to say like believe me it's going to be epic you don't want to miss it and that as the you see on the far right of your screen is what we have to make in terms of up to that last little bit to a hundred percent and so even if it's like somebody put in a couple days a couple bucks today and i was like thank you like that that really helps because it helps us to take more risks we i'm not joking we would like to host Richard Dawkins someday in order for that to happen what we need is basically we need to master this crowdfunding strategy and imagine if if half of our channel if if half the subscribers put in a dollar like it's like you know everybody can part of the dollar nobody's worried about a dollar if half of our subscribers put in a dollar we can easily cover a Richard Dawkins debate like Richard Dawkins versus like let's say Dr maybe we get like Dr Nathaniel Jensen who's debated before he's a creationist at answers and Genesis and he i think he got his phd at like UC Boulder and that's Jason Lyle so what that's the type of debate we want to host but we do need to actually make this strategy work so let me show you more about this because you might be new to it so and you guys might be like oh james i'm tired of hearing about it well the more once we kind of make it toward our goal then there's not as much pressure on me to keep bringing it up because some of you are like i've heard this eight thousand times stop so i want to show you this though in particular you might be like well james okay you have to raise the funds to make this event happen and we love to see you know you're probably like we love to see Matt Delanti those are fun debates but you might be like but how do you know james that you can actually make it well we've already done it successfully back in january this is one that we did with 143 that jumped in on the crowdfund and folks with only six days left i mean hey you don't want to miss it we raised 3100 so absolutely amazing we absolutely believe we can do that and more as this time we've only bumped it up to 3,500 so it's just a little bit more even though we have a lot more subscribers and also though you might be like well i don't know what what platform is it this is confusing like how does it work well if you've never done this before you guys it's fun to jump in on a crowdfund i've done it now for a friend and it was just for a comic book that i don't even read comics but i was like oh cool like i think it's cool what you're doing and so want to show you this indiegogo is just like Kickstarter it's a crowdfunding platform and so it's really easy you guys for real it's it's absolutely epic you can sign in with facebook if you want you don't even have to create an account that's how easy it is and i just absolutely love it but more let me show you this because you might be like well what are the perks though james like how is it worth it well let me show you this so we have a lot of perks some of which were there last time some of which are brand new so at the smallest amount at the very top of the page if you throw in three bucks i mean that's the price of a cup of coffee that helps us make this event happen and if you throw in six dollars for the second tier that not only helps us make the event happen but it also helps give us give a few extra dollars so we can help promote this event as we want to make it huge and it's just a gigantic project next up is your name on screen really cool twelve dollars that's the third tier that's something we had before a lot of people have enjoyed that then your name read out loud at the end of the debate we want to do that as well that's the next tier and then modern day debate coffee mug because someone in the live chat suggested it and i'm glad that people found that useful and then the embossed postcard at the next level modern day debate t-shirt and one reminds you let's say you threw in you're like all right i'll you know i'm happy with what the channel is doing i like the vision or the mission of kind of providing a level playing field where everything's equal for everybody i like that you're like well okay i'll go for that but maybe you're like well well i'm curious do i just get the t-shirt no you don't so let's say you put in 50 dollars you'd get the modern day debate t-shirt plus everything from all the tiers below it so for example you can see here you would get the modern day debate t-shirt at the bottom of the screen plus you'd get the embossed postcard sent to you plus the modern day debate mug would be sent to you plus your name would be read out loud at the end of the stream plus your name would be on screen during the debate and that little ticker at the bottom so you'd get all of those perks and so i'm telling you folks like it's absolutely epic highly encourage you if you haven't already i'm going to put that crowdfund link into the description and want to encourage you folks if you haven't already we only have six days left so i want to tell you absolutely like folks jump in now before it's too late and we are absolutely determined to make this event happen so let me just quick be sure that i'm getting you the right link well let me know can you guys let me know if you click on the crowdfund can you let me know if it it actually works because i'm not sure if this link is what i need and also thank you for your super chat frank's 92 says love the channel james thanks for setting up nathan and or t-jump and nathan and the super chat is just for the wrestling fans thank you frank's 92 seriously that that really does mean a lot pardon my delay on reading it and then thanks for your kind words skeptic who said i think this channel is way underrated and timo agreed thank you for your kind words that seriously means a lot and then thank you hannah anderson for your huge support of the channel seriously it means a lot and then we are open to any topic marshal that won't get us kicked off of youtube i mean we hey we say a lot of people say they're open minded and tolerant and all that it's like hey we live it out we walk the walk we don't just say it and so yeah we will actually do anything and then the toaster crumb says is the debate in six days the debate is on saturday june 5th so oh it's coming fast i mean it's going to be epic and again you guys if you want it's like you can just throw in a few bucks if you want you can throw in a dollar like no joke and that helps us because we just see that people actually support the idea or they're kind of behind it so we do appreciate that and then looking for any more in case i missed anybody in the live chat and then i think i'm gonna have a protein shake before the last debate starts pancake of destiny says i don't donate donate because i want to see u and t jump do a car wash oh well i'm crazy i mean we're going to make this goal believe me and then ed hack says it would be amazing if you could raise that for dockins do you have to match it for the other speaker um i don't think we'd have to match it if we worked it some speakers are okay with not getting the same honorarium so like mike jones is actually pretty flexible which is cool and that way you know we could do yeah i've revelation i've heard that william lane craig or linux um i i i don't know i i i don't want to say without knowing it for sure and then thank you for your so i but i would guess that they may if you want an actual debate i would think that you'd probably cost a good chunk of cash and then josh well i like said i click the link and it works thanks for that feedback as well as vinny anderson said link looks good thank you for that and then shane shane summer said couldn't get darthed so nathan was the next best best next best option huh that's funny i'm gonna send i'm gonna basically prep and it's going to be juicy you guys so thank you guys kylo ken roads thanks for being with us says t jump in a bikini doing a car wash that sounds pretty epic we do appreciate it that may that may happen you never know but yeah we are encouraged folks and like i said we're determined we're going to make this goal and so only six days left though i mean it's like holy smokes we just jumped up big time we are absolutely pumped so my zoom just ended i've got to reload my zoom two seconds and then i've got to send the link to to our guests so give me a second but you guys we are now at i've got to update it i'm so pumped you guys we are now at 2966 2966 so watch the meter on screen as i update this you guys it's going to be amazing we just jumped up to 84 percent so you can see it just keeps going up and that is phenomenal so thank you guys so much we're determined we're going to make this goal and that's one of the reasons you want to do this 12 hour stream today is like hey this is a great opportunity to let people know about the upcoming event that we're pumped about so that's unbelievable we're at you guys it's crazy we have jumped up by at least 10 percentage points today so like this is just taken off so we are so close to 3000 which is only 500 away from our final amount and last time you guys i was so pumped that we actually we had a stretch goal so we are still i'm planning a trip for an in-person debate with matt delandy like lord willing i don't know for sure but you know that's something that i have to get permission from everybody but once the covid is no longer a worry for people like maybe august my hope is to host an in-person debate with matt and with another speaker at atheist experience studio so it's in person and they're a really fun pleasant group of guys so we are absolutely excited though and so thank you so much for all of your support and kylo ken kenny rose says this is kenny rose thank you dr roats for being with us we hope you are doing well and so thank you for being here it's always fun all over catwell says if we donate above a certain level but don't need the lower perks can you donate the value of those back into the donation tally yeah we can actually so thanks for letting me know about that that that i am totally open to that so thank you for letting me know as that kind of helps um i'll explain more on what i mean by that uh but so let's talk more and then josh oh alex says if we contribute but the award isn't available can we still contribute that much yes you can you can contribute such that you're not like signed up for an award and if you want you can send me a message and just say like you know if you wanted you could say i don't really i'm not worried about that like i don't care about the award so last time yeah so long story short i'm available at modern day debate gmail if you got any other questions and the only reason i say that is because i'm about to set up this next debate which is going to be absolutely epic and so if we do an in-person debate with matt it would probably if we do it this summer because remember we made our stretch goal for the last fundraiser so that's something that we it wouldn't be like a crowd fund it would just be me using that money for that stretch goal um i it would probably be evidence for god but i've got it i'd have to ask matt and then i'm going to send these links though so thank you thank you all over cat wall for letting me know that i do appreciate that and i'm going to set this up so that we can get t-jump and nathan thompson so i'm going to put this screen on while we prep for the debate and two seconds folks whoa i just realized yeah so i'm a little behind so this debate is probably going to start a little bit late sorry about that guys i just lost track of time um upcoming where is this 12 there you go 12 hour stream and then flat and then here and then so yeah what i'm going to do is be right back as this stream is about to start maybe in about 10 minutes give me about 10 or 12 minutes thanks folks hey everybody tonight we're debating flat earth versus globe earth and we are starting right now with t-jumps opening statement on behalf of the globe tom thanks for being with us the floor is all yours now thanks james thanks uh nathan for being here appreciate the opportunity as always so we know for a fact the world is in globe because we've been to space and we can see but that of course doesn't convince the flat earthers because they want something that they themselves can confirm which we can also provide because there's this thing called radar radar is this magical technology that can tell distances and speeds and locations and sizes of things that are far away and the way it does that is it bounces radio waves emits them from an emitter and it hits something and then it bounces back and we just literally count the time it takes to go from the object that bounces off to the receiver and back and we know how far away it is and what shape it is based off of how the radio waves bounce off of the thing and guess what we can do this with things in space too like you yourself can go buy a ham radio and if you spend enough money you can buy one that can bounce radio signals off the moon you can communicate with people on the other side of the planet by bouncing radio signals off the moon we know exactly how far the way the moon is 280 something thousand I think was the number miles exactly as said by oh we got an echo there uh exactly as said by NASA which means it's in space like there's there's no dome there we know for a fact there's no dome there because nothing the radio waves don't bounce off it does bounce off the moon doesn't bounce off anything behind the moon doesn't bounce off anything in any direction that is not the moon um so we know it's 280,000 miles away or whatever the number is so we can measure the size of the moon the shape of the moon the distance of the moon we know it's in space we know that the radio waves don't still hear an echo are you here next to james yes i am nathan you don't have the uh watch page on do you thank you he's me no i'm not watching but i'll go and mute for you yeah it might be just my volume coming through his mic and his his speakers and being heard by his mic because of waves gosh so uh yeah so so we can know that the moon is in space we know it's up there we know the distances all the things nasa says are correct we can bounce radio waves off of it not a problem so we know all of these facts that we and as individuals can confirm that what nasa says is correct uh the speed of light for example we can also measure the speed of light because that's literally what radio waves are is they're using the radio waves which move at the speed of light to measure things and we can prove this it's very simple we did this in 1800s the 1700s the 1900s and pretty much every other 100s because it's really easy to do and so we can measure lots of different things using these radio waves that you yourself can go build in your backyard to communicate with people on the other side of the planet and you can know where they're located because they can tell you or you could build one for your friend's house and your house and then calculate the distance in the shape of the planets by communicating with them and the direction you have to point the waves and the way they reflect and how they communicate with other people you can triangulate the the directions so we know the world is a globe and you yourself can prove this any human being can prove this which is why flurfs are so dumb because anyone can prove this anyone anyone can just build their own mechanism of a radio a ham radio if you build a powerful enough one you can bounce radio signals off the moon you can know where it is you know how far away it is and if you rent the the really really big ones you can bounce radio signals off the sun too so we know how far away that is now big that is so this stuff is really easy to do it's really easy to confirm anybody can go build these things and demonstrate that yes in fact the world is round the moon is 280 whatever how many thousands of miles away it is a big ball in space and you can bounce radio waves off it and get back to earth to talk to people on the other side of the planet all this stuff is easy that is the most simplest way to demonstrate the world is in fact round and it is irrefutable and flurfs have no idea what they're talking about now include there thank you very much tom for that opening statement we are going to kick it over to nathan for his opening as well want to let you know though folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics and so if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button as we have many more juicy upcoming debates for example dr michael brown christian apologist will be taking on apostate prophet next month on june 9th you don't want to miss it so do hit that subscribe button and that notification bell nathan thanks for being here the floor is all yours you're on mute james i want to thank you for having me on again i really appreciate it t jump thanks for joining us uh shout out destiny clothing for the shirt and the tin foil hat factory for the hat i really appreciate that guys so starting it off with an honest man when proven to be wrong must either admit that he is wrong or he no longer remains to be an honest man the truth is incontrovertible churcho was famous for saying this malice will try and attack it calling me flurfs were too dumb to figure it out and ignorance will try and deride it but in the end there it is so i never wanted to be a flat earth or ladies and gentlemen i laughed at the idea of the earth being flat when it was introduced to me and uh then a mentor of mine who someone who's really intelligent was looking into it for seven months and it almost dropped the phone when he told me that because he was so intelligent i thought there's no way this guy could be looking into flat earth for seven months and here i am five years later i ran a research group with 150,000 people where we asked globers to post first hand evidence that the earth is a spinning ball in space t jump had no first hand evidence he said we could build you could build you haven't done it and he acts like it's so easy to just go build things in your backyard and bounce radar waves off the moon well if it's so easy bro how come you haven't done it to confirm your model yet so on top of that uh massive amounts of ostracism being a flat earth earth as you saw here in t jumps opening but also i don't want all the world governments lying to me about the shape of the earth i mean that's kind of weird right that's spooky but uh facts are facts now let's look at the facts we'll start with fluid statics fluid statics are large bodies of water at rest the study of them fluid dynamics is bodies of water in motion so when you look at a body of water at rest the surface of the body of water is flat and horizontal to the container requires a container a spinning ball is not a container every time you put water on a ball and spin it the water flies off that's observable that's reality okay that's repeatable that's testable that's science so also you have to hold a compass flat for it to work the suez canal has zero locks zero um curvature and it's over a hundred miles you've got the Statue of Liberty being observed from over 60 miles ladies and gentlemen we see way too far the horizon is flat even phd astrophysicist neal de grass tyson will tell you there is no curve at 128 000 feet now for years i had to hear glober say have you ever been on an airplane and i'm not kidding i was at disney world one time and a guy said you can see the curve from your hotel just go up to about the eighth floor now if the mainstream scientist phd astrophysicist that run observatories and have six million followers on twitter say you can't see curve from 128 000 feet and it's a fisheye lens curving the picture and all you see in the picture is new mexico well not only does that red bull jump prove the earth's flat and not curving but the earth didn't rotate under felix bomb gardener when he ascended for three hours this is another point i have the earth's not rotating i'll get to that in a second because we have more proof the earth is flat specular reflections the incident angle of the light matches the reflection angle of the light if you go to a house of mirrors at a circus anytime there is distortion or curvature in the surface of a mirror there will be some sort of distortion in the image okay now that's actually how they make glass they actually melt the molten metal on top of or the molten glass on top of molten metal because all liquids at rest are flat that's also another way they get the bubbles to rise out of the mirrors and the glass but i'm getting off check gyroscopes keep the rigidity in space ladies and gentlemen we would not use gyroscopes in an airplane to fly level if a gyroscope was curving around a ball airplanes admit in their f a a documents that the earth's flat non rotating and they do not account for a gravity vector now i don't know if you want to talk to a pilot who believes earth's a ball and never tested it great but the people who train the pilots the federal aviation administration says the earth is flat non rotating and they negate a gravity vector on top of that you've got microwave repeaters and last but not least we've got the black sun black swan if the earth's a ball curving in all directions the horizon would be approximately 1.225 times the square root of the observer's height and feet problem is we've done observations at one foot where the horizon is over 10 miles out now that would necessitate that the earth's radius is about the size of the orbital path of the moon 250,000 miles ladies and gentlemen so the globe earth has been falsified already i'm i'm honestly here as a favor to james doing this debate so on top of that earth doesn't move ladies and gentlemen period doesn't move mainstream science asserts the earth has a coriolis and objects in the air experience earth rotating under them now i don't know if you've ever seen a hummingbird or a helicopter a hot air balloon a drone a ball you throw in the air or maybe a golf ball you hit off the tee the earth does not rotate under anything so the earth does not rotate they lie plain and simple again the fa asserts the earth is non rotating that's why we don't have drastically difference journey times when traveling west to east as opposed traveling east to west i thought about this when i was a kid i would go visit my dad in ohio and it would be four hours to get there and four hours to get back and i thought that's weird they told me the earth was spinning turns out they lie on top of that ladies and gentlemen can have gas pressure without a container high pressure systems move towards low pressure systems it's called the second law of thermodynamics if it didn't happen all the time it wouldn't be a law now if you put your hand on a hot stove it will burn you 100 out of 100 times if you pop a car tire and the tire has air in it the air is going to escape into the space around the tire 100 out of 100 times okay it's the second law of thermodynamics so you cannot have gas pressure which we are all breathing at the moment 14.7 psi at the surface without the necessary antecedent of a container of some sort now very convenient for me not so much for t-jump the sky is a map and a clock we've got 88 constellations Polaris never moves we can do astral archaeology which i've actually filmed myself i went to the georgia guide stones about three months ago go check out be the change before that channel disappears it's got two strikes and they deleted my last channel Nathan Thompson and they deleted the official flat earth and globe discussion so this topic's being heavily censored hats off to James for still continuing with the topic really appreciate it so um also another proof the sky's a map and a clock and we don't orbit around the sun ladies and gentlemen at 66600 miles an hour is that you can lay on your back january first observe the stars six months later lay on your back in the same place at night and observe the stars now let's pretend for a second that my head is the sun right so nighttime would be over there towards the kitchen okay now six months later the globe would be on this side of the sun and nighttime would be over there towards the neighbor's house if that was happening you would not observe the same stars every six months i talked about it in my speech in Dallas if anyone needs it email me flatter flyers at gmail.com i love you guys on top of that um t-jump said we know we've been to space then he talks about radar systems he's never built then he says we can do this with things in space then he assumes the moon is in space which i find hilarious because he kept repeating over and over we can trust everything NASA says well oops t-jump i don't know if you knew this but NASA claims that the moon isn't in space it's in earth's atmosphere they just said that not joking so you can google it right now on your little oyster clam couch and check it out because everything you said in your opener just got destroyed by your priest NASA who asserts the moon is not in space so you're not bouncing anything off the moon and confirming one space is real or any of that is a total joke bro uh on top of that um he kept saying you yourself can build but never did and then he called flurfs done and then he said anyone can build one again just keep repeating yourself so that was pretty boring uh that's gonna close my opener looking forward to the question and answer we're back in four you got it thank you very much and with that we're going to jump into the open conversation folks want to let you know though our guests are linked in the description we do appreciate our guests and as always we want to ask you 99.9 of you do a fantastic job and we appreciate that and want to say thank you for attacking the arguments instead of the person so with that gentlemen the floor is all yours uh well actually i have one of these so i have done it personally which is debunks all of Nathan what Nathan said yeah yeah i go to a college where we do we do this kind of stuff all the time you go to a college okay so the college did it you didn't do it in your backyard no who do you think builds them it's they give us money and we then used the money to buy parts and then we put the parts together like Lego pieces we build them oh my god we do it we do it Nathan and you can too this is really easy it's called a ham radio do you know what a ham radio is maybe it's a little bit of feedback i'll give you a chance for a spine Nathan but there's a little bit of feedback i'm hearing so yeah a little bit go ahead Nathan if you want to respond you said we could trust everything NASA says t-jump no i didn't say that i said we could confirm many of the things NASA says ourselves that's what i said no in your opener you said everything NASA tells us is true no i didn't say that i said i confirm no no i said we could confirm many of the things i said what is nasa lie to us about Nathan listen listen to the words so i said we can confirm many of the things NASA says we can't confirm everything because we don't have a Hubble telescope so we can prove many of the things they're saying is true it doesn't mean the other things are false Nathan t-jump did you know nasa claims the moon is in Earth's atmosphere yes on the very edge which is still technically a part of space no on the edge show me the edge in in in the edge so so yes the atmosphere contains different layers you know like if you pour smoke like it's heavy water smoke out it falls and the heavier gases they sit in the bottom and then the lighter gases sit on the top like just here on earth we can do this test with gases you have any kind of gas and if the gas is heavier or denser it goes to the bottom of the gases and the lighter gases go on the top of the gases that's the atmosphere just a bunch of gas sitting on top of each other you said t-jump that we could do this with things in space and then talked about space can you stop interrupting me please well i'm curious what did i say one thing is we do have feedback so i i think Nathan if you're willing to kind of sit back in your seat the way you presented your opening statement that might help because there's for some reason i can't tell where it's coming from but it might be your how close you are to the mic i'm not sure james i think it's the fact that his speakers on his laptop are projecting the sound and his microphone on his laptop is picking up the sound i don't think it has to do with his location i've done every debate this way every single debate on the channel i've done this exact same way next we'll go into whatever issue you wanted to address Nathan but or i should say Nathan continue on and he interrupts me go ahead yeah what i wanted to say was we can do this with things in space is what t-jump said and then he said we bounce the radar off the moon now t-jump did you know nasa says the moon is not in space no they don't it's in earth atmosphere no they don't it's the atmosphere is space the atmosphere is space in space yes we earth the whole thing is in space the fact that it's in a part of the atmosphere doesn't make it not space too space isn't completely devoid of everything there are particles in space we'll move on ladies and ladies and gentlemen go ahead google what nasa says because they just debunked everything t-jump said where we actually it's my turn you're gonna run again let's let's let let's let nathan finish his point no he did he asked a question i answered the question so we're gonna give gonna give nathan a chance to finish his sentence i think he was mid-sentence and then i promise we'll come right back to you tom nathan what were you gonna say yeah so nasa asserts the moon isn't in space t-jump said we can bounce radar off things in space and then says he bounces it off the moon which nasa says isn't even in space gotcha all right thank you we'll kick it over to tom in at least a couple minutes uh yes so the the moon is in space yes that is it is also in the atmosphere those are not contradictory things this is not hard nathan just doesn't understand astrophysics this is not a problem so the moon's also in the solar system too wow oof contradiction no so again my question was how does radar work nathan can we bounce radar off things is radar a pretty accurate tool we can use here on earth so the moon is in space but it's also in earth's atmosphere is that what you're saying t-jump yeah it's also in the solar system can you answer my question nathan how does radar work you understand that space is a vacuum and the atmosphere is pressurized so how are you saying that the atmosphere is space and space is the atmosphere and moon is in space and the moon is in earth's atmosphere that doesn't make any sense the space has to do with a certain density of the atmosphere if there's a low enough density then you're in space and the low enough density of the atmosphere at that rate is space so space is a total vacuum space is not a 100 vacuum it's just not not the case nathan it's enough of a vacuum and there is enough of a vacuum in that area to call it space so yes it is still space all right ladies and gentlemen you heard it here first the moon is in space but it's also in earth's atmosphere t-jump is the horizon the geometric curve of the earth i don't care i want you to answer my question you haven't answered you don't care you want me to answer your question what's your question yeah so ken is radar an accurate thing does it bounce off things i don't know i've never used radar okay so is the earth curve geometric horizon or no no idea you don't know if the earth curve is a geometric horizon t-jump have you ever heard that boats go over the curve of the earth okay so um what does that have to do with my argument am i opening okay well we're debating whether the earth is a globe or it's flat t-jump and i well if the earth was a globe then boats would go over the geometric curve which would be at 1.225 times the square root of the observer's height in feet is the horizon the geometric curve of the earth t-jump remember nathan remember nathan i had the positive position here that's why you had me go first you specifically said tom is holding the positive that the world is a globe which means you have to address my arguments not the other way around nathan so address my arguments does radar work do planes use radar can you build a radar is a ham radio a real thing that anyone can build in the backyard for less than a thousand dollars is that a thing right is that a thing nathan do those exist yes radar is real t-jump i don't specialize in radar so is it okay if we move on to another topic no is that all you want to talk about with radar is you have no data for no evidence any photographic evidence you literally just said you can test it it confirms earth's a globe i'm trying to get to the nitty gritty is the horizon that we see where the sky meets the earth the curve of the earth t-jump and you said i don't care i don't care if it was in your argument i'm asking you if the horizon is the curve of the earth this is back and forth t-jump you know how that works right yeah so so i presented an argument right so i presented an argument that proves the world is ground i didn't say anything about the horizon i don't care about the horizon because i can prove it in this way i don't need to prove it in every way so in this way with radio we can prove the world is global 100 percent now if you don't understand radio that's fine you can't contest the argument now if you want a video i can provide you a video uh bouncing radio saying bouncing radio off the moon guide video okay here we go we got videos bouncing radio off the moon hackaday here we go ham radio just how to do it hold on there's videos of king kong climbing the statue of liberty with a girl in his hand bro so you got a video that makes it real you asked for a video i gave you a video i'll give you a video you you're not showing me you doing anything t-jump do you ever get off your clam couch no i live on the climb you said you did it where's the evidence of you doing it t-jump if this is what we're going to talk about and you don't want to talk about the horizon because you're scared of the horizon so so nathan i presented an argument or evidence that the world proves the world is round so if you can't refute that evidence then i have won the debate i've proved the world is round t-jump saying i saying i don't have video of me doing it personally like i can get video of me doing it personally is that what you would require if i have video of me doing personally does that mean i win because i can i can get it but please don't interrupt me okay t-jump i'm asking you i'm telling you i'm not radar specialist never use radar apparently you're a radar specialist it proves us to go great i'm a dumb flirt let's move on to maybe the horizon when we look at the horizon t-jump is that the curve of the earth yes or no wait a minute so remember i have the positive position here so so i present evidence and you have to counter that evidence so if you're just admitting that i'm right you're interrupting me now nathan we do have to give him a chance to finish i promise we'll come right back to you for a couple minutes as well so so nathan as you said in the beginning you're the one who said t-jump's going first because he's holding the positive position so how debate works is the positive position presents evidence and you have to address that evidence if you say i'm ignorant of the topic and have no idea that means you can't counter the evidence and my evidence wins this holds so you'd have to present some reason to think that my evidence is false saying i haven't presented i can present it to you there are plenty of youtube videos and guides that literally explain this and if you want i can make a recording of myself doing this at the university too that's easy to produce um so that's what you need i can i can easily provide that but you haven't actually addressed my evidence are you are you saying that it's false because you haven't seen me do it are you are you saying i'm lying or are that all of these youtube videos every single one of them is lying and every one of these guides that you can build yourself are lying is that your argument nathan because if it's not and these are true then your worldview is proven false so so why do you think this evidence doesn't prove your worldview false we'll give you a couple of minutes to respond even yeah can we see the evidence teacher yes this is going to prove the earth's a globe yes that's what the debate's about right here flat or is here the globe great excellent so so here it is if james could you pull it up and show it on screen bouncing radio signals off the moon uh just it's the first youtube image you should come up with uh so so radar works by you bounce the radio signals off things and it gives you the shape size speed location of the things and you can bounce radio signals off of a mirror like the moon and then have it come back and hit the earth and it'll tell you the size and the shape and the distance of the earth too so you do you don't know what radio is in general right yeah but you're bouncing them off the moon and then you tell me it tells you the shape of the earth yes so so if you bounce radio signals off one thing and it hits another thing it can then bounces off that other thing too and so it can tell you the size of that thing too okay so you're bouncing off the moon then bouncing off the earth and then and then catching the radar and and that's what you're doing yes so there's these things called multiple radar stations all over the world and you can send signals between them like you can you can bounce it off the moon and then it goes back and talks to them and then they can send the signal and it bounces off the moon and comes back to you and you can send the signal to the moon and it bounces back to yourself so yes you can literally measure the shape of the earth by bouncing radio signals off the moon into yourself that is that is a thing yes it's like radar it's like two ships bouncing radar off of an island you can yes it's called triangulation all right let's see the evidence james did you did you find the video bouncing radio signals off the moon so it is a challenge what i'm doing is it is hard for me to pull this up without the stream buffering if you are able to pull it up on your side tom and share your screen that makes it easier for me okay james can you find my evidence for me please it's your whole argument bro yeah that's my whole argument james james do a google search because that's literally the evidence uh sure um let's see oh wait want to remind you folks in the meantime our guests are linked in the description and we are excited for many juicy upcoming debates and that screen share is ready right now so here's a guide of guys teaching you how to bounce radio signals off the moon with exactly the metrics and how to do it the equipment to build it here's their device they build it in front of you and they bounce it off things and talk to people with this thing and they can measure the distance to the moon and back very simply this is super easy anybody can do this this is not like super expensive equipment this is stuff you can do with car batteries and it's a computer uh parts and super easy so they bounce the signals off the moon somewhere around the end so they this is they do it they get the numbers back on their computer thing right there so in that they did in fact bounce the radio signals off the moon with the time it takes how far the moon away is 20 250 000 miles they got the numbers right whoo they did it they proved it that that's the moon is 250 000 miles away it is the correct size and shape and they communicated with people on the other side of the planet and got the numbers right so they know the planet is round two this is really really simple stuff anybody can do this you can build this in your backyard it costs less than 10 grand go for it there you go you got your proof Nathan somebody literally did this i don't know if anyone was actually impressed by that t-jump obviously hasn't tested the earth himself or done any of this he just keeps saying you can do it where was the evidence ursa globe in that video bro was the numbers so how radio signals work wait Nathan so slow down so how a radio signal works is it bounces a signal it sends a signal out it hits an object and it comes back and then a computer gives you a number and the number tells you how far away the object is what the speed of the object is uh where the signal is coming from those kinds of things so the evidence is the numbers Nathan that's how science works it's not like they're going to show you a picture of everything what they do is they show you the numbers the math because that's what science is it's math and the math is the evidence so yes this is literally bouncing radio signals off of the moon so we know exactly how far away it is we know exactly the size and shape of it we know exactly where the signals are going and we can transmit and receive signals and triangulate the shape of the earth doing this this is very simple like what which part of this isn't making sense to you i'm not getting it see jump what were the numbers what were the exact numbers like i i could go back and check them like what why do you need to know the exact this is supposed to be your proof this is super easy to do anyone can do this and you don't know the numbers why would i need to know the numbers to to build a ham radio and to bounce signals off the moon like you want the exact numbers that you should get when you build this like this is not hard to find i thought this was your evidence see jump what was the numbers that prove the earth is a globe bro like you have dude probably 400 people watching surely you've got some numbers no i don't need any numbers that's not how arguments work you don't need numbers nathan like you can do the numbers on your own i'm literally telling you how to do the experiment for yourself to find the numbers yourself i don't need to give you the exact numbers like who cares what the numbers are i'm literally telling you here's exactly how you prove the earth is round it's easy to do you can do it in your backyard you can do all the math yourself and find the numbers and you're going to get the results that the world is round like i don't need to provide you the numbers nathan i just gave you the entire method and how to prove the world is round for yourself like is there's there a problem with that method nathan that do radio waves not work does triangulation not work where is the problem in this in this chain of reasoning nathan go ahead okay are you done asking questions because you asked like 10 questions at once and and i don't know when you're done so are you done sure great moderator are you familiar with what a burden of proof reversal fallacy is you're asking me yes are you familiar with a burden of proof reversal fallacy i don't i think people often is over like over use the term fallacy and it's not what i'm into but i i understand like flipping the burden of proof like okay so when he says you can do the test that is a perfect poster child stereotype example for burden of proof reversal fallacy where t-jump and he blindly believes people on youtube he doesn't have any of the numbers for hasn't verified it and then tells me hey it's super easy it costs less than ten thousand dollars you can go do it as if everyone just has under ten thousand dollars laying around to go to radar waves off the moon and somehow confirm first a glow that i mean are we going to spend the entire day on radar that he hasn't tested or can we move to a topic that i've tested for the last five years well i have tested it so i told you before this is something i have done i don't have if you want i can make a youtube video of doing it too but remember the reason i'm using this example is because the flurfs i don't mean that as a pejorative if it is i apologize the the flat earthers claim that they want an example of something that they themselves can do so i'm giving you an example of something you yourself can do because that's what you asked for in every single debate you want something that you can do so i'm giving you something that you can do that's relatively cheap you can rent one for a lot less than ten thousand if you need money you can ask uh reds rhetoric he will give you the money to test this for yourself um so this so the reason i'm giving you something that you can do is because that's what you ask for in every debate nathan i'm not i'm not trying to shift the burden of proof here i've given you the evidence i've given you the methodology i've given you the external evidence the videos where you can literally see the calculations and how they do this themselves they have it available uh but that's not what you care about you never care about those things because you don't trust them you want something you can test yourself and that's what i provided you called a burden of proof reversal fallacy you can't show me any evidence of you testing it but you keep saying how easy it is for everyone to test it and you can go do it literally a burden of proof reversal fallacy so we're going to move on from that burden of proof reversal fallacy that t-jump doesn't know the numbers for because i can't test it live in front of 400 people for you to confirm with the moon that the floor we walk on is curving in all directions so we're going to move on to the next topic t-jump are you ready uh i didn't present any other evidence so i don't know why you're bringing up other evidence like you have to refute what i said like if there is right because because i did remember i'm the one bringing up the positive place as you said in my intro you said t-jump's doing the opening because he has the positive position that the earth is round so i presented my evidence the earth is round you saying you don't like that isn't a counter-argument so you'd have to show there's some philosophical error in the methodology i used here saying that i didn't present the numbers reg reticus present the numbers to you number of times you don't accept the numbers so it's a waste of time for me to present the numbers to you but what i can do is i can tell you how you can test this for yourself which is literally what you ask for in every video so unless you can show there's some philosophical problem with using radar to measure the distance of the moon and then to triangulate the size of the earth and the shape of the earth if you think that's impossible or you think there's some kind of problem with that then that would be a good counter-argument to present if radar works exactly how we think radar works and we can use radar off the moon which is demonstrably true then it's pretty easy to know you could calculate the shape of the earth doing this because it's it's how radar works like do you think radar doesn't work can you hear us nathan are you done bro what i think he said he just keeps asking me if i do if i don't think radar works james j tolin who has 20 000 subscribers said he became a flat earther looking at data from radar because he was getting information working for the government that that would debunk the globe model guys very sensitive information he literally like couldn't even put on his youtube but so radar doesn't prove you live on a globe you have no evidence first you said you didn't know the numbers you didn't need to give them to me then you said red rhetoric has given them to me numerous times i just dismissed the numbers okay so you don't know the numbers so don't say i dismissed the numbers i'm asking you what the numbers are and you still haven't given any numbers you say you can go do the test i don't know if you know this t-jump but we're in the middle of the debate with like 400 people watching i'm not just going to go build a $10,000 radar system in the backyard for the next three days while everyone's waiting on the debate so james can we move to another topic please i'm over otherwise i'm done i'm done if you guys want to move to another topic we can well again my topic so so my argument isn't about the numbers it's about the philosophical methodology here are you saying that radar doesn't work because if radar works if we can bounce radar off the moon let's give him a chance and we'll talk about that later we we can switch into the other topic but i do want to give him a chance to finish this and then we can move on to the next one if you want so so my argument is is that if radar works in the way that we know it works and if we can bounce radar off the moon and if triangulation works we can then use those three things to calculate the shape of the earth accurately and we've done so here's a method that you can test it too the question is is do you think any of those methodologies radar bouncing radar off the moon or triangulation or any of those faults are any of those because if they're not then we've already proven that the world is round and you can confirm this yourself so the question is is do you think any of those are faults yes or no james are we moving on to the next topic now i'd like you to answer the question then sure i've already answered it ten times james are we moving on to the next topic now this is not your turn to talk to you jump if you don't want to answer that's okay we can go to the next time i'm not moving forward into the radar works you haven't given us any numbers that prove bouncing radar off the moon proves the surface of earth curves in all directions so since this is a flat first globe debate i'd like to talk after 45 minutes about the surface of earth can we talk about the surface of earth james wait so my question was is it's not t-jumps not your turn hold on all right so all right Nathan Nathan quiet so uh tom he asked for your numbers if you don't have the numbers that's what his response is apparently so well he answered the first part of my question so i asked if radar works he said yes that's great i'm happy with that can we bounce radar off the moon if he doesn't know that's fine too um and does triangulation work so those are the three parts of my question i want those are the last two are the things i'm looking for can we bounce radar off the moon or does he think we can't and does triangulation radar triangulation work those are the two things i'm looking for here that's literally broken record so next topic james that's up to you yeah great i'll talk about the surface of earth because he asserts it's curving in all directions and when i was young they said boats go over the curve of the earth now a very simple question for you doesn't take a ten thousand dollar thing in the backyard that you don't have any you don't have any numbers for is the horizon the curve of the earth yes or no i don't know what that means is the horizon the curve of the earth those are two different things the horizon is where the the atmosphere in the sky meets the earth when you can see it the curve of the earth is something significantly more complicated than that okay so what you're saying is when we look at the horizon that's not the geometric curve of the earth right it's just your eyes it's the way your eyes interpret stuff excellent boats don't go over the curve excellent so jen can i ask why stars twinkle on the heliocentric model stars twinkle yeah why do they is twinkle on the heliocentric model you know what do you mean by twinkle i mean when you look at them they're twinkling twinkle twinkle little star have you ever heard of that song you mean like getting getting brighter and dimmer that's is that what you mean by twinkle you don't know what twinkle means do i need to look up the definition of twinkle for you live in front of 400 please i would appreciate what do you mean by twinkle is that just no problem i'll get to the definition so is that what you mean that it's just getting brighter and dimmer is that what you mean by twinkle i'll get you the definition t-jump so there's no confusion here okay okay fine twinkle for t-jump okay it's shine with a gleam that varies repeatedly between bright and faint so t-jump i'll ask again why do stars twinkle on your model lots of different reasons some of them uh change density and so the amount of energy they're releasing is increasing and decreasing some of them get blocked by gas clouds so it decreases the amount of light that they receive some of them get blocked by like eclipses like when the moon passes in front of the sun it becomes dimmer um there's lots of different reasons okay so did you know that mainstream science asserts its turbulence in the atmos that would be one of the reasons yes different air densities couldn't block no it's of the light yeah excellent excellent t-jump so turbulence in the atmos causes lights in the distance to flicker or twinkle right yes all right great how come jupiter doesn't twinkle jupiter isn't emitting light jupiter isn't emitting light i mean when i look at it with my p1000 it sure looks like the light is the iss emitting light because the iss doesn't twinkle it's the sun emitting light because the sun definitely doesn't twinkle t-jump the sun does twinkle like when the moon comes in front of it it dims and when the moon moves away from it it brightens that's what twinkle means the reason that stars are so far away the twinkle is barely noticeable is because of how far away they are uh jupiter does twinkle and the fact that yes things pass in front of it and decrease the amount of brightness that it emits or reflects from the sun and so it does decrease and brightness jupiter does twinkle but not like something doesn't pass in front of the entire thing to make it look like it's dimming enough for you to notice it can you show me the sun twinkling yes it's called an eclipse uh that's the sun being blocked by the moon okay i don't know if you know this but every night the stars twinkle all the time if the sun twinkles you don't need the moon to block it in order for it to twinkle so can you come in sun twinkling during show me twinkling during eclipse when is it twinkle during eclipse i watch the eclipses so the definition of twinkle you just read is that there are changes in brightness and intensity of the light when the sun is blocked by the moon that's a change in brightness and intensity of the lights that would be twinkling that's the same kind of twinkling yep but t-jump we already asserted that turbulence in the atmos causes the twinkling of the stars now the atmos is always moving around above your head it's animogenous and anisotropic it's always changing and moving in all directions so why doesn't the sun twinkle all the time because you asserted earlier things twinkle because of turbulent atmos above our head well the sun always has turbulent atmos between you and it uh you don't need to turn the atmos okay introducing eclipse is a new reason no i started i started with that so i started with there's lots of reasons literally what i said first there are lots of reasons and then you brought up the turbulence which is one reason too so if there is something with not a lot of light and different air densities can reflect the not a lot of light very easily it can make it twinkle yes so like a flashlight in the distance if you get fog or something it'll make the flashlight look like it's going to twinkle if you have a big lighthouse a lot of fog isn't going to make it look like it's going to twinkle because it's not enough to reflect enough of a light to dim it so that your eyes don't see it anymore so it's just pretty simple like there's not as much light coming from stars and so it takes less to cause them to dim there's a lot of light coming from the sun so it takes more to cause it to dim okay great so uh you don't local light illumination is uh nope okay when you see a city off in the distance at night the entire horizon isn't illuminated there's a local light illumination if you ever drive to vegas at night you can see vegas all lit up it doesn't light up the entire horizon now i'm curious to jump when we observe a sun is that does the sun light up the entire horizon or is the light from the sun small and localized like los vegas uh the entire horizon i would imagine oh really the entire horizon is lit up after the sun sets after that's interesting after the sunset or during the sunset you think the sun illuminates the entire horizon left to right equally are you serious have you ever looked at the sunset bro do you ever leave that couch yes so the the sunset is literally the the the the leave the shadow of the sun where it stops emitting light is the entire point of the horizon so obviously like where you're standing could affect the shape of the sunset like if you're standing on the horizon you could actually watch it move like the shadow could come and pass you so so but it would if you were standing perpendicular to it yeah it would light up the whole horizon okay well that's not what we observe anyone can observe that it's a local light illumination similar to vegas off in the distance when the sun sets it doesn't illuminate the entire horizon the sun is not bigger than earth it's small and localized that's why we have corpuscular rays teacher i'm curious are sun rays parallel are they converging uh what do you mean when the sun rays hit the earth are they parallel to one another or are they converging it's it's a wave it's light so they're waves they're waves are they traveling in straight lines parallel to one another like aerostophanies said with his well experiment waves or are they converging so so they're waves they don't have waves on traveling straight lines yes okay so light from the sun is not parallel aerostophanies didn't prove the earth's a ball that we're saying i have no idea what you're asking because he says they were parallel aerostophanies asserted sun rays are parallel okay what is i don't understand how this is relevant to the topic like what why are you saying that like yes he allegedly measured go ahead he allegedly measured the earth two thousand years ago you haven't heard of aerostophanies yes what is what does this have to do with light being a wave or a particle you're the one talking about waves and particles bro i just asked you if they're parallel or converging t-jump and you keep changing the topic diverting rambling asking 10 questions at a time without stopping and letting me answer and then interrupting me okay bro good job i haven't asked any questions yet i don't think so what by parallel and converging what i interpret you to mean is that like are they straight lines like particles or do they converge like waves and interact with each other and so that's that's how i interpreted the question did you mean something different by that question did you just say are they straight lines like particles particles are straight lines particles moving straight lines like if you have just a particle there's just like a rock and you throw it it can travel in a straight line in space yes rock is a particle rock is an object made of particles if you take a okay listen real carefully okay when the sun comes on the earth did the rays go like this or did they go like this they go like this parallel this is parallel right parallel to one another or did the sun rays go like this not parallel intersecting converging it's a it's a wave like if you drop a rock in water and you see a wave it's wave so i don't understand your question so what light is a wave it moves like a lot of waves parallel or are they converging i don't know what that i don't know how you could have parallel waves i don't understand what that means it's like water if you drop okay i don't understand what you're saying okay so all right so so we're gonna have tom a chance to respond minute or two and then we'll do the same for you Nathan so whether or not light is a wave or a particle doesn't change the effectiveness of aerothosin these experiments so i don't know i don't know why you think that matters i don't i'm not following what you're saying here you just keep saying is lights converging or parallel and then somehow assuming that this matters to the aerothosin these tests i just don't think you understand how light works it's a wave it doesn't it's it's like water it moves everywhere so i don't understand how like did you explain your connection to aerothosin in the light being straight or parallel thing i don't give it i know you don't get it audience i want you to get this okay i'm asking t jump if the rays from the sun go like this and are parallel or if they go like this and are converging and we've spent like five minutes on it and he's still confused okay so we'll just move on did you know uh how hot's the thermosphere according to your religion outside layer of the sun above the sun that it's hotter than the thermosphere you don't know what that is nope what is the thermosphere it's hotter than the surface of the sun what is the thermosphere is that you're asking the layer of the outside of the sun is that what it is or is this what according to your religion we have a earth the air allegedly layers out okay and we have something called the thermosphere i was asking you if you know how hot it is in the thermosphere Fahrenheit or Celsius either one works nope no idea what what is the temperature okay roughly 4 000 degrees Fahrenheit so do you talking about we can send satellites anyone can do this we have satellites in space do you know what metals they use in satellites aluminum that's one of them good guess and steel you don't know any other ones well titanium gold gold copper so do you know the melting temperature for aluminum t-jump 100 and something degree you know the melting temperature for aluminum 100 and something degrees the melting temperature for aluminum is 100 and something degrees Celsius yeah i think so are you serious is that not right what is what is the melting temperature for okay great well you just told you're breaking up i can't think it's a lot higher than that but t-jump t-jump you did the thermosphere is 4 000 degrees they can't send metal that melts at 100 and something degrees Celsius through a 4 000 degree medium yeah so so they do it during the when this planet is blocking the rays from the sun so it's not that hot so you're saying they launch them at night so the thermosphere is not hot yeah so it's only hot if it's being exposed to radiation from the sun if it's not being exposed from the sun it's not hot so they go to the areas that are not hot where it's being blocked by the electromagnetic radiation from the earth the electromagnetic field yes did you know that thermosphere is a layer of earth's atmosphere bro did you know that and it goes all the way around the earth sure it has different temperatures different okay it's a specific it's a specific temperature it ranges from like 3000 to 4000 degrees uh no so so if like if the sun is being blocked by the earth then the temperature drops significantly t-jump you didn't even know what the temperature was bro sure i asked you and you didn't even know sure but i know the temperature is caused by the sun yes heat heat is generated by the sun heat sun emits heat sun heats things up if blocked by the sun gets cooled down very simple very simple right t-jump okay i got a very simple question for you when you move away from a fire which is hot does it get hotter or colder colder colder right excellent now the sun's above our heads when you fly in an airplane you're between the sun and someone on the ground right t-jump sure okay let's say it's roughly 90 100 degrees on the ground do you have any idea how cold it is in the airplane uh very cold around very cold now interesting t-jump you just told me when you move away from a fire it gets colder and that the sun is hot but the airplane moved closer to the sun and the airplane got cold yes do you notice a contradiction there t-jump or do i need to explain it nope there's yeah it's a big contradiction no no because heat is maintained when it hits something and warms something up there's this thing called the ground which gets heated up like an oven and so like if you're in an oven and you're close to the thing that's trapping all of the heat it's going to be hot like the fire so the fire is actually like the ground because it's absorbing the heat the atmosphere there's nothing there to get hot so that's nothing there to radiate heat so it's cold okay you just said there's nothing in the atmosphere i don't know if you notice but the atmosphere is full gas um so that definitely can heat up yeah you agree gas can heat up right t-jump yeah okay great so if you move in the gas yeah gas can heat up like cement does cement makes things hotter so the sun hits cement cement heats up like an oven and it stores the heat and air does not store the heat it's a very bad conductor for heat so cement is hotter than gases when it's exposed to the sun okay but t-jump you just told me when you move away from heat it gets colder yes unless there is something trapping the heat like cement which is going to make it hotter so if you hear something trapping the heat it'll be warm and if you're not near something trapping the heat it will be cold so cement traps heat so if you're near the ground it's warm go ahead so you're saying that the heat comes from the ground not the sun yes the rays come from the sun and then the sun the rays hit the earth and then the earth stores the heat so it traps the heat it gets heated up whereas the air does not get heated up as much and so it's easier to store the heat in the cement and the ground which can maintain the heat and so it's warmer on the ground than it is high in the air because the air doesn't have anything to store the heat oh interesting because you said earlier that the sun was hot and then i asked you when you move away from something that's hot do you get hotter or colder and you said colder then when i said when you go in the airplane how hot or cold is it and you said very cold when it's 100 degrees on the surface of the earth t-jump i find that very interesting it kind of sounds like you're agreeing with me that that the heat isn't actually coming from the sun it's coming from the earth so so if you put a rock in a fire it gets hot right and then if you take the rock out and put it over to the side it's still hot so if you walk from the fire to the rock you'll actually get colder because you're moving away from the fire and then you'll get hotter because you're moving closer to the rock because there's another source of heat it's it's trapped the heat from the fire so if you're moving away from the fire you get colder but then you move closer to the rock you get hotter so if the big rock is floating in space and it's hot and you move away from the hot rock it gets colder even though you're moving tiny tiny bit closer to the fire are you done yes all right cool have you heard of Ken Wheeler mr magnetism he's got 200 000 subs no okay well he did a test with the flur do you know what flur is no okay pizza picks up a heat signature like kind of a terminator when he looks through his glasses he can pick up heat signatures and tumbling bad guys are like behind walls and behind bushes and stuff um so check this out t-jump he tested moonlight with a flur which picks up a heat signature and verified now this guy's a globehead he verified moonlight is measurably cold colder than the shade did you know that uh no yeah i've tested it too you can do it for 30 bucks with a laser thermometer moonlight's measurably four to ten degrees colder than the sun depending on how what time of year it is how close it is and like what phase it's in um so yeah you should test that sometime cold moonlight i don't i don't know what that even means so okay do you know what a sun analema is nope don't don't understand how what your previous argument is in any way relevant to anything we've said so far so so let's say that this this like it's dumb to say that the moonlight itself is colder no the moonlight itself is not colder the moonlight is just white and it can heat things up if it has energy and if it doesn't have energy it can't heat things up so but it's obviously gonna heat things up more than the shade is for sure so but i don't understand how this is relevant to anything i said or that you've said at all you just you just said it's gonna heat things up more than the shade and i just told you the shade is hotter than the moonlight moonlight is cold you could test it with the flur which you didn't even know what it was or you could do a laser thermometer which i've done it's 30 dollars you have no idea what you're talking about let's move on to sun analema do you know let's move on to what this has to do with the topic you just said that the shade is going to be colder than the moonlight it's the opposite you haven't tested it i was just letting you know you should go test it do you notice something only wait i'm still still not seeing how this is relevant to the topic is this just random fact week like would you like some random fact that you don't know anything because i had plenty of them what is this is that okay let me let me clue you in on why this is relevant yeah let me clue you in real quick please you're confused again so on your model the moon allegedly 2160 miles in diameter which is six times six times 60 observe from the earth which has a circumference in statute miles of 21600 which is six times six times 600 they say that ball which back in the old testament was a false god they used to sacrifice children to they say that ball in space is reflecting sunlight now we just talked forever about how hot a sun is and how it heats things up and that it's not actually the the sun that's hot but the rays hit the concrete and heat the concrete up right well if the rays are hitting the moon and heating the moon up moonlight wouldn't be measurably cold you could test it with a flur or a laser thermometer ken wheeler's a globehead and he verified this for us i've also tested it myself it was on my old youtube channel that got deleted if i find the video i'll make sure i get it right back up i'll probably just do the test again that'd probably be easier but yeah do you understand how t-jump are you not confused nope because this was pretty much pretty easily explained on google like you can find that yeah air contains heat it measures heat more than the light itself does like i don't understand why this is relevant to the earth being a globe or flat like yes this is an explained phenomenon that we know about in science that's very easy to explain why does this have to do with that's right you're still confused so we'll move on you know what i'm saying you're still confused t-jump i tried to explain i'm still confused because you haven't explained how this is any way relevant to the world being flat like i've already disproved your argument like you can't in any way address the evidence i presented which proves the world is around and that you yourself can test to show the world is around and you're just bringing up random facts that don't have anything to do with the topic like okay well that was a cool burden of proof reversal fallacy again telling me i can go test your evidence why are you talking in the middle of me talking bro again well there's no such thing as a burden of proof reversal fallacy there's a burden of proof fallacy as i think is what you mean to say t-jump do you know what a sunny antelimes nope no you don't okay well if you track the sun for a year it makes a loop a figure eight loop it's actually got a smaller loop in the north and a larger loop in the south and the points in the north are not equidistant to the points in the south now the reason that is is because we live on a flat earth with the sun rotating around polar center moving between the tropics alternating every six months that's why we have seasons that's why we have sun antelimas that's why the fauna in the forest drastically different in the north than it is in the south in the south it's pretty much just ice and penguins in the north that's where the reindeer are you get trees and all sorts of other vegetation and plants and animal life not happening in Antarctica also on average Antarctica is 50 degrees colder than the north now if we were tilted 23.4 which you subtract that from 90 it's 66.6 we're alone at fall tilted in space the heat would distribute rather evenly 93 million miles away from the sun that's so hot according to t-jump but we would also have equal fauna and flora on each side and pretty much the same temperature variations but we don't I'm sorry you didn't know what a san antelima was t-jump did you have any other arguments we could go over mostly what you just said is just delusional like there's a magnetic field around the earth which changes the way the sun heats the earth so obviously it's not going to be equally that's that's dumb um but anyway that still doesn't in any way disprove my my evidence that does prove the world is round with radio waves like anyone can do this you're making a bunch of nonsense arguments that you can do it so again like i've presented evidence you just said you're ignorant of it you can't you're not an expert so you got to let him finish so so you if you don't understand it that's up to you i you should go research and understand it since it proves your world to be false and you bring up random facts that don't in any way have anything to do with what i said isn't evident against what i said and yeah i literally explained all these things to you so if you don't understand them that's your problem like i don't care like yeah my magnetic radiation magnetic fields explains the differences and heats of certain areas of the earth very simple not hard to understand yes moving further away from a fire gets colder unless you're moving closer to a rock which is hotter very simple to understand like none of this is really complicated and none of it in any way is evidence for the rule being flat and none of it refutes the proof that i gave that the world is round so i don't know why you're bringing any of this random stuff up it's like random dictionary facts like okay yeah i know you're confused all right well let's just move on a question answer because t jumps too confused to have a conversational we can jump into the q&a and folks we also want to remind you that our guests are linked in the description we appreciate our guests and as always want to ask that you would attack the arguments instead of the person which 99.9 of you i have to give you a high five for doing that so well already and we're going to jump into those questions right now so thank you very much this question coming in from two moments since we have the 12 hour stream today it's hard for me to see like where the new questions come in and where the old questions are out or i should say from the last debate stop so this one coming in from timothy brice says t jump plus nathan equals epic thanks james appreciate that our pleasure bubblegum gun says let's see we got that one tim prior thanks for your question said all right i'm going to play a game we got that one that was from the last debate hold on there sam harris's bulldog thanks for your super chat said great win for t jump eliminative versus eliminative versus reductive materialism what are your thoughts t jump i'm really curious about your opinion on this topic i don't really have a position on a limited versus reduction of materialism like i think that it's pretty much up to the person it's just a philosophical position i think that until you make testable predictions one way the other it's just kind of philosophical meandering i prefer reductionism because it's worked more scientifically um but i don't think like we can we should eliminate like consciousness right i eliminate the idea that consciousness just doesn't exist and it's a misconception of some kind so gotcha i don't i wouldn't say that i have a strong position one way or the other jordan gerard thanks for your question says my daughter calls you poopy jump is that an inside joke can i can i get that on my shirt next up tim prior thank you very much says i like how he says we say flat earthers are too dumb to figure it out like it's an insult but flat earthers claim billions and all of science are too dumb to figure it out nathan response no that's not true at all dude lots of people are waking up i've been sharing flat earth for five years when i used to go out and do activism one out of a hundred people would even listen to what the hell i'm saying now it's like one in five people one in ten people are already flat earthers my buddy trevor went out in miami first eight people he shared flat earth with already knew the earth was flat so i don't know what that guy's talking about me at all gotcha this one coming in from k-124 says nathan please explain the data from satellite oceanography it clearly shows the oceans are not flat please try better than saying cool story well that is a cool story but we have abyssal planes which cover half the ocean sea floor and i don't know why we're talking about the sea floor when the surface of the ocean is not curving in any directions we have frozen lakes specular reflections suez canal we can see the statue of liberty from 60 miles away i mean did you hear the opener bro come on this one coming in from pancake of destiny says your fellow flat earther proved the rotation of the earth nathan why do you disagree hashtag thanks bob well that's interesting that like it's 2021 and globers think the only evidence of a rotating earth came from a flat earther who's still a flat earther and they didn't detect or measure earth rotating they actually detected light deviation now sagna who invented the sagna interferometer that's why his name's in the sagna interferometer he said it was actually the vortex of the ether causing the deviation in the light now if you're gonna claim you know more than the guy who invented the interferometer that's a cool story bro but i'm gonna go with sagna also bob doesn't claim he proved rotation bob knows what's up you're literally just making stuff up and you're scientifically illiterate this one from k-024 says nathan and by the way we do we do want to both in both directions we want to ask that the audience as well as the speakers you nathan and tom not insult each other k-024 says nathan please give a detailed explanation of what electromagnetic wake is please try better than quote google is your friend brah yeah of course well they um this is in relation to why hurricanes spin in opposite directions now all you gotta do is like take a beer they shot foam on the top and you pour it down the side of your glass and the foam will spin in opposite directions it's a property of fluid dynamics now as the sun traverses around the equator above the equator between the tropics it obviously affects particles in the air and the ground heats it up so there would be sort of a wake behind the sun similar to how when a boat is traveling through water and one side of the wake goes to the left and the other side of the wake goes to the right now hopefully you're happy with that and all you globe heads that don't understand electromagnetic wakes can stop asking me about it this one coming in from tim prier says imagine that no flat earth proof once again just talking about the globe and cherry picking quotes from people that don't claim that the earth is flat nathan any thoughts i don't know if you missed the opener but we had the statue of liberty visible from 60 miles out we have a geographic range table from the us coast guard the f a a states which is why we use gyroscopes they keep their rigidity in space that their planes are flying level over a non rotating earth you can look at a specular reflection you look at laser observations but ladies and gentlemen globes don't want evidence or facts they just want to blindly believe someone else did the science you can do it too which was she jumps entire argument this entire debate a burden of proof reversal for some youtube video he wanted james to pull up next up sleepy dan says yes we experience coriolis coriolis effect affects all the time it's called wind that's when the air moves at a different speed slash direction than the earth uh i don't know if that person's confused about what coriolis is uh they don't it's not the wind okay just so you know next up tim prier says kind of like the floorboard of your car does not move under a drone if you flew one inside of it oh that let me read yeah the car's not moving the drone also doesn't move so that works on both models question the answer says there is still no curvature measured anywhere ever tjump your thoughts there's curvature measured in lots of places the surface of the ocean curves proven the bottom of the ocean curves the surface of the earth curves we can measure curvature in pretty much everywhere you just have to use real equipment and real numbers and not make up numbers got this one coming in from tim prier says except that our star charts have shown polaris to move nathan they say love how he's been told this but keeps repeating the same stuff what are you talking about bro i went and filmed polaris through a hole in the george guide stones which they built 40 years ago and and the stars still line up to the pyramids which were built 2 000 years ago orions built so you have no clue what you're talking about bro you're just making stuff up our star charts our religious doctrine our paper says look polaris moves no it doesn't i've been doing time lapses for five years stationary to all the other stars which are also constellations don't forget according to your religion all the stars move so you have to deny not only polaris is stationary but that we have constellations so welcome to the clown world that's the globe earth this one room kango 24 says so nathan cannot use the genetic fallacy as t jump has done stuff earth's atmosphere is not adjacent to a vacuum we have a gradient moderator and where that gradient ends it would be adjacent to a vacuum and you can demonstrate that it's literally just a dumb belief that you have not only has nasa been caught thousands of times faking space it violates the second law of thermodynamics but the sky is a map and a clock polaris astro archaeology 88 constellations i mean you want to blindly believe that we're blasting through the milky way universe at a half million miles an hour while gravity pulls everything together and you can't prove that we have stellar parallax it's constellations and a pole star that lines up with rocks in georgia i mean give me a break guys you just gotta have eyes to see in years to hear honestly the truth isn't for everyone it's just people have eyes to see in years to hear so this one coming in from tim prier says that's a lie nasa does not say the moon is in our atmosphere they say the same of our atmosphere reaches to the moon stop cherry picking the article and read the whole thing nathan all right i'll look it up james go ahead on the next question this next question coming in from question the answers says this is for you tom 6.3 million dollars a day and 265 thousand dollars an hour nasa gets from us that alone is disgusting anyone who stops ridiculing and seeks truth sees this uh not really so scientific institutions should get more money from us the what's disgusting there's the fact that CEOs and companies get significantly more than that like nasa only gets like two percent of the federal budget or something very small so point two percent point two percent of the federal budget so it's really not like we should give more money to science because that's why everything works if we were using flat earth logic we would still be in the stone age so the whole point here is that we should be giving money to science and it's disgusting that we don't give more not that we are giving something to it the batman says okay yeah that's i think that one's just trolling not going to read that tim prier says claims the earth is flat has not measured it himself and shown the measurements what a hypocrite so much for you must do it yourself argument yeah i'm done at the salt and sea the salt flats in utah i tested at chicago it was on my old channel it just got deleted sorry i'm battling censorship and then also i tested in florida from 12 foot observer height i saw water hitting the shore of the ocean five miles out when the horizon should be four miles out so dude you just don't even know what you're talking about i have better evidence than the stuff i've done like specular reflections gyroscopes keep the rigidity in space the way they make glasses according to fluid statics you just have to redefine level and say level means curve when the definition of level is free of bends curves and irregularities synonyms are flat plumb flush straight so you don't even have straight on your model no wonder so many glovers can't figure out whether they like boys or girls it's very apparent next up kango 24 says let's see tim prier says accept oh we got that and we got this one soldier science says nathan please claim this ten dollars from modern day debate only if you invest it into your first chair of vac q not nasa but the rocket lab merge stock cool story bro hey james can we share my screen real quick sure great so to the globe fundies say the earth's atmosphere doesn't extend you on the moon well here from the esa earth's atmosphere stretches out to the moon earth's atmosphere stretches out to the moon and beyond that's the esa european space agency guys space.com surprise earth's atmosphere extends far beyond the moon physics.org earth's atmosphere stretches out to the moon and beyond newsweek earth's atmosphere extends far beyond the moon so in the opener go back and watch it when t-jump says we can bounce radar off things in space like the moon he has no freaking clue what he's talking about period gotcha and moving on to this next question do appreciate it coming in from kango 24 says nathan t-jump is correct a simple google search debunks the last five years of your claims not particularly addressing a argument of yours but bubblegum gun says nathan if earth is flat as is water why not make a tower one mile high use a large telescope and spot europe nathan just change it's human to be wrong uh i don't know what that guy's talking about because j tolin takes infrared way harder than one mile up he gets in airplanes and he can serve over a thousand miles from the airplane so again shout out j tolin go check him out that guy has no idea what he's talking about again bro globes are so sad next up question the answer says the radio signals work on a flat earth two fact t-jump what they say that the radio signals work on a flat earth just as well fact no so triangulation literally doesn't work so as nathan said in his intro he said that the moon was not 250 thousand miles away that's a ridiculous based off of what he said and you can literally bounce radio waves off the moon and just count the time it takes and you can know it's 250 thousand miles away so it doesn't work on any of the flat earth models demonstrably and you can also use triangulation to show the roles around using it it can't be explained on the flat earth unless you use magic leprechauns or something you got it this one coming in from josh wainer says nathan you ran a research group of 125 000 people yet have no basic knowledge if radar i just said i'm not a specialist i'm not an expert at radar the largest radar system in russia that my buddy went on tour there and the lady giving the tour says you can hit the east coast of the us with this they do that bouncing the radar waves off the sky if you think ursa ball literally just said if you believe ursa ball that's how they do it they just bounce it off a non-existent barrier in the sky and then it goes down to the us now i'm sorry but they're just traveling laterally that's how the radar waves work got you this one coming coming in from mike bill ars says did nathan find out what an electromagnetic wake is yet nathan google it will wait they want to know if you can define electromagnetic wake they already did that like 10 questions go tim priors says where is the evidence of you physically measuring earth is flat nathan where is it where is it where is it yeah if you watch the clown world tour when i was in florida i was 12 feet off the ground and i saw water splashing against the shore 4.9 miles out well according to the globe earth which says we're 24901 miles in circumference you do the math for the geometric horizon that would be 1.225 times the square root of the observer's height and feet should have been four miles out so just go watch the video bro it's on my clown world tour video and i've done it in like nine states for the last five years like you guys just refuse to test it and even if i showed you just be like refraction it's just refraction you just it's the cloudiness and the molecules particles in the atmosphere lifting up the image which i don't know if you guys know this but when there's stuff in the air it's it's harder to see you don't see farther that's an inversion of reality just like everything with them they don't know what's up and what's down because up is according it's down according to people in australia and downs up according to people in america for people in australia it's literally an upside down world they've inverted everything i just wanted to add real quick i found nasa's definition of space which is 12 miles below the carmen line 62 miles above uh sea level which means the moon is in space next up thank you very much for your question this one coming in from tim prier says where's the evidence nope we got that michael dresden says uh all right i guess technically they're not personally attacking they say t-jump with the reversal of burden of proof fallacy yes yeah so there is no such thing as the reversal of burden of proof fallacy there is a burden of proof fallacy which is when you're reversing the burden of proof but there's no such thing as a reversing the burden of proof fallacy that's not a thing um i think nathan's just confused on the terminology there so there is a burden of proof fallacy which is when you're changing the burden of proof that you have to say that the other person has to prove you wrong or whatever and that is a burden of proof fallacy and i was not doing that i was literally just providing the method that has already been demonstrated with a video where they have demonstrated it and so that is the real evidence why i've met my burden of proof and then i also said you can do this too that was kind of the point here is that because nathan and the flood earthers always say we want something we can do here is an example of this so it's not a burden of proof fallacy i've i've met it by already providing the examples gotcha and thank you very much for your question mike billar says nat why are you always so mad calm down it's just a youtube discussion brah you'll be alright brah i don't know if i seem mad i don't know i wasn't i just think it's goofy how glovers have to redefine flat and say it means curved and redefine level and say it means curved because it's literally what mctoon did in his argument with my friend flatter day saints uh t-jump will literally say the moon's in space but then say the moon's in the atmosphere also like at the same time in the same breath so it's just uh kind of frustrating when you're just debating liars like blatant liars that contradict the can't say two sentences without the second one contradicting the first it's pathetic next up thank you very much for your question coming in from mike billar's i got that one this one coming in from tim priers says flatterers are trying to convince people that billions and all of science are wrong that they're the only ones smart enough to figure it out burden of proof is always on them yeah cool and you can go outside and test yourself everything i've talked about fluid statics we see too far the statute of liberties to us canal specular reflections i don't know if you guys have ever seen a reflection off a body of water but if you do get back to me and let me know if you think it's curving that's funny juicy tim priers says nathan and all fired earthers demand proof that earth is a globe when all the information is at their fingertips simply ask for measurements of flatness and you'll hear crickets nathan is this true no i already talked about the black swan uh the fact that we see too far specular reflections a geographic range table from the u.s coast guard the f a a says they fly over flat non rotating earths i've seen chicago skyline which should have been completely hidden from new buffalo 49 miles away so i mean at glass how they make glass guys what are you talking about you guys don't listen to anything this is sad mike billar says nathan did you steal the p1000 what is a p1000 a p1000 is a handy camera but no i mean i don't really steal anything never got charged for stealing anything don't have a record of stealing anything no one has any evidence i've ever stolen anything honestly everything i need the creator freely gives me as long as i try and do his will someone says bless is a man who walks not in the path of the unrighteous who doesn't stand with sinners or sit with the scornful um he'll be like a tree planted by the waters he will bear forth fruit in its season but it will not be so for the unjust their lives going to be full of calamity so yeah i mean i've had two p900s and a p1000 been a full-time flat earther for like two years um it's pretty cool i like what i do so god we're still a camera andrew ruse says nathan fally fallacy this fallacy that reverse user reverse underhand forward eyelid leg bone fallacy listening and so they uh they don't approve of you your use of the word fallacy i think now mike billar says i want to see james twinkle i don't know what that means but mike billar says also nathan polaris declines one degree for every 111 kilometers south that you go this is a necessary and sufficient or i mean this is necessary and sufficient for a globe prove it wrong we'll believe you well that's a perfect spoken like a true glober we'll believe you well i don't know if you knew this glober but things also descend towards the horizon as they move away from you on a flat earth i don't know if you've ever been on a really long street and looked at the street lights but the street lights in the distance appear smaller and lower than the street lights that are right next to you and above your head so congratulations welcome to flat earth gotcha and kaleb bad faith says t-jump isn't nathan right about stars twinkling because of turbulence in the atmosphere especially after you factor in alden's number uh alden's number isn't a real thing but technically yes there much of this twinkling in the stars is caused by air density changes in the atmosphere that is true it's not the only reason there's lots of other reasons next up k-024 says twinkle twinkle little star how i wonder what you are you are a big ball of hydrogen moderator then tim prier says have you measured the earth yourself nathan have you have you have you have you other people have done it oh james hold on one second have you done it yourself have you done it yourself nathan's entire argument okay cool can we screen share again yeah great as light from a star races through our atmosphere which is a big question of fallacy gas has no inherent shape it bounces and bumps through the different layers bending the light before you see it since hot and cold layers of air keep moving the bending of light changes too which causes stars appearance to wobble or twinkle now none of that is the moon moving in front of things none of that is lots of reasons star twinkle ladies and gentlemen there is one reason according to globe earth priests that stars twinkle it's turbulence in our atmosphere now i don't know if you guys know is the sun no well not any more than the moon's inner atmosphere but well then the iss good so what holds the uh gas to earth's atmosphere uh the gas to earth's surface t jump gravity oh really did you know on the iss they experience almost zero gravity because they're in space um but the moon is not in space it's inner atmosphere it extends far beyond the moon did you see all those articles i just quoted and pointed out five minutes ago i just i just put up the nasa definition of space which is 12 miles below the carmen line which is 62 miles above the surface of sea level which is space so that's even though that's also a part of the atmosphere it's also a part of space which is also a part of the solar system so so those aren't contradictions he may then you can be in the atmosphere and still be in space those are not the contradictory turns the part of the year is in space yes yeah but the people in the iss experience zero gravity they float around and they show you how the microphone spins with zero gravity but you just said that the atmosphere is held to earth by gravity yeah and the atmosphere extends beyond the moon yeah so they experience near zero gravity they don't experience zero gravity zero gravity and so so they're slightly pulled towards the earth or slightly pulled towards the sun how's it work to jump right they're slightly pulled it looks to me like they're floating which is why the iss it has to orbit the earth because it's pulled towards the earth and if it didn't orbit it would just fall straight in oh yes they do experience gravity so there's gravity on the iss they're not free floating there there's gravity on the iss but it's not enough to cause them to be pulled towards the ground of the iss oh okay so it's negligible it's enough to hold the gas to earth surface but not pull down astronauts which have way more mass than gas particles right uh yeah so so it's it can hold things that are lighter in from further away because there's less gravity so if something's further away it takes less gravity to hold it if it's lighter if it's heavier it takes more gravity to hold it so if holding air in at a long distance is very easy because it's very light so the lighter it is the easier it is to hold in with gravity because it takes less force gravity's not a force literally one of the four fundamental forces it was superseded by Einstein he says it was the bending of spacetime in a pseudo pseudoramonian spacetime bro made up imaginary so gravity is the curvature of spacetime those are both forces i don't understand what your problem here is oh okay the curving of spacetime how do you curve spacetime t jump space is nothing and time is a concept so you're telling me you curve a nothing concept no no space is a physical thing spacetime is a physical thing it exists it is a single kind of thing and there are different ways to manipulate it like there are with any fields like the electromagnetic field or the strong field yes spacetime so space has no physical properties you know that right uh what's spacetime is a physical thing yes has no physical properties it bends it's space the vacuum of space what physical properties does the vacuum of space have so space time is one thing space is just a generic human term to refer to the things outside of our atmosphere or close to the edge of our atmosphere spacetime is the actual thing that causes gravity it's the actual thing that exists and it is a physical thing so type in is spacetime physical so adding the word time which is a concept makes space a vacuum physical no no adding the the word time to the word space to make it a single word spacetime it's physical okay t jump right on bro yeah it's forbes go down to the science ones that are right below you oh the science yeah wikipedia is your alma mater right here spacetime i was going to the one above that the physics the physics exchange so yeah it does the wikipedia says it's a physical phenomenon too so yeah that spacetime is a physical law yes four vectors are really not physical yeah go for go for it is spacetime really not practical it doesn't sound like it's going to help your argument oh let's find out because this is saying it's really not good great do you know this is literally just a concept it was what it never been verified never been observed spacetime bending yes it is something you can make up okay where do you observe spacetime uh you observe a bending by looking at the light curvature around galaxies so you observe spacetime by looking at light curvature from galaxies that that's not looking at spacetime that's looking at light curvature from galaxies you're asserting it's because of spacetime so you don't ever actually observe spacetime you just see things and assert that the cause of spacetime yeah so you see what spacetime does to things that's how you see spacetime so like i literally can't see you know we can so like i see you because i can see the light reflect off your electrons does that mean i'm seeing not you am i not seeing you no i'm seeing you because the thing that makes you have causes an effect which has a demonstrable result which i can observe so so i'm seeing you just like i'm seeing spacetime when i see the curvature of light passing through it if you see light curve your that is a dumbest crap i've ever heard i see you the light bouncing off you so that means spacetime is real because i see you like cool story tjump do we have any more questions shames because i was done debating this guy like an hour ago i actually started celebrating in my mind that i didn't have to talk to him anymore we do have more questions and want to say thank you very much for those questions so hang in there let's see we have this one from two seconds this is loading for me so i'm going to read one of the more recent ones that just listen nathan tapasol says nathan did you allude to how glass is made proving the earth is flat slash disproves globe earth if so how does it yeah so the glass or the mirrors that they're making they melt it on molten metal and that's not only how they make them flat on both sides but how they get all the bubbles to rise up out of the glass so fluid studies that's how they make them flat because fluids at rest are flat that's where i'm a flat earth gotcha and tim prier coming strong says i want to debate nathan but in our debate i'm going to demand the same evidence for flat earth that he demands for the globe he brings up the globe once he loses cool story you want to debate me i want to go on a date with super models cool story nobody cares next up a f katie says so it sounds like you don't want to debate him or you do who is him i don't know that guy no i don't want to debate him if he wants to pay me he can pay my fees 250 bucks and if straight up a f katie says nathan what is the motive for a flat earth conspiracy why are all the governments in on it well unfortunately i'm not one of the people lying to you like tjamp i'm one of the people telling the truth that the earth is flat and stationary so like why they would lie i'm not sure maybe it's because they're collecting 52 million dollars a day with nasa i mean 52 million dollars a day that seems like a pretty good reason to lie but maybe it's deeper maybe they're trying to convince you that god isn't real that genesis one isn't true then they can create schism in the church divide the christians divide and conquer has always been their plan but hey i don't know i'm just speculating i'm not one of the people lying to you and stealing 52 million dollars a day got you this one coming in from tim prieru says ha ha nathan says he blindly believes people on youtube which is the entire reason flat earth exists because it started off as a joke on youtube for five years literally the only people here blindly blaming people on youtube are my opponent who asked you to look up a video on youtube because he doesn't have any evidence next up such projection this one coming in from question the answer says gyroscopes hold rigidity in space globe busted fact yeah through that check out how that actually follows band for life thanks for your super sticker band for life and nathan's tinder date says nathan do you want your air pods and apple pencil back you left them here in florida who's your tinder date thanks man super well which one i don't know apple pencil next up the shane's armor thanks for your question says okay looking for more serious questions tim prieru says na na na na na na or oh it's na uh na uh na uh i don't remember did you say na uh tonight nathan i don't know but this one coming in from do appreciate your question tim prieru says nathan where are your numbers where's the math showing your measurements like you asked for from tom earth is flat what about your double standard yeah it's okay so uh we've done laser tests at salt and sea 17 miles there should be about 200 feet of curve uh the chicago skyline is visible from the other side of lake michigan so that should be completely hidden we also caught from kenosha on infrared the chicago skyline which was 59 miles away and we were roughly one or 200 feet above the ground because we just got above the tree line so um guys i mean i gotta pull up all my videos and just talk about all that i just talk about fluid sacks the surface of water is level and horizontal to its container lobers have to redefine the word level and say it doesn't mean what it means flat it means curve that's stupid gotcha and sheples phoenix says no one in flat earth can explain what cast the shadow onto the moon during the recent total lunar eclipse can nathan explain if not the earth then what did cast the shadow onto the moon during the eclipse i mean not only did the alleged shadow changed directions mid eclipse it came at three o'clock and left it like moon which happens on almost every single eclipse what you can't predict uh eclipses on a heliocentric model because they say the redness caused on the moon because everyone knows shadows are dark they gotta have an explanation for why the moon is glowing red and you're asking me about the shadow which is glowing red okay they say the light bends around the earth and refracts through the atmosphere will have news for ladies and gentlemen the atmosphere changes hour to hour and day to day you would never be able to predict eclipses months in advance on a heliocentric model newsflash they don't they use the sorrow cycle you could check out nasa's website they admit they use the sorrow cycle on their website which was hijacked from flat earth so i don't need to explain anything about eclipses you need to explain why you think shadows are red and they can predict eclipses months in advance that's goofy that's dumb and why change directions many clips did the earth change directions in the middle of an eclipse no so how do you explain that in your model so what caused the shadow on the moon i'm not talking to you anymore this is question and answer t-jump if no one has questions for you then you gotta keep quiet well but the to be fair that that was their original question they said can you they said uh what casts the shadow onto the moon during the recent tolu learning clips if not the earth what did do it they're so they're asking like do you have an alternative that they're looking for yeah it's not a shadow duh that's the hijacked the sorrow cycle nasa admits it's a sorrow cycle you can't predict on the you reject the shadow all together so you don't give an explanation for the shadow because you don't know that i reject anything it's not reject anything i've tested the moon moonlight is measurably cold it is its own light source there are no shadows on the moon gotcha i was just saying that you don't concede that there was a shadow i wasn't saying you necessarily rejected uh but and ro says whenever nathan is stumped he always says with a pause are you done then proceeds to know he's screwed but we'll say it's some sort of we'll say it's some sort of begging the question fallacy or something nathan is this true is this your strategy we're gonna have to let the audience decide and tim prier says oh great nathan got that is the horizon the curve of the earth bug no nathan the horizon is not the curve of the earth it is caused by the curve only well nathan one second he said the horizon is not the curve of the earth it is caused by the curve only you guys think we claim it is the curve nathan okay cool story no question for me once talk you don't have any sort of disagreement with this all right sorry well let us know if this is your view is this your view that namely do you claim that the the horizon is the horizon the curve of the earth do you claim that the horizon is the curve of the earth well that's what he that's for the question you asked me earlier in the beginning is the horizon the curve of the earth which i think is what he was implying that they are the same that's what your model says let's go over the curve let's go over the horizon okay and this one from andrew rouse is it rooster rouse let me know friend andrew says nathan if you've done 10 000 debates you would have done one debate every day for nearly 30 years so you must be making that up did were you debating when you were two no the thing is is that uh i don't have like scheduled hour-long debates sometimes i'll just debate people in person like i ran into a nasa employee at the airport completely shattered him in a debate i ran into phd danie faulkner asked him some questions about his heli eccentric model he wouldn't even answer i talked to erin ron here for like 15 minutes and he ran away so obviously i can do multiple debates it's more than one in a day if people are just running away from questions so gotcha this one coming in from kango to forces nathan as a truth seeker aren't you keen to go and do t-jump radar experiment it's not an experiment it's man-made experiments are observations in nature and then you manipulate the cause to determine the effect so everything he said was not an experiment at all whatsoever whoever asked that question doesn't know what science is you are scientifically illiterate all right nathan we want you to refrain from calling people scientifically illiterate because i have been to be fair nathan i have been telling people that we won't read their super chat if it's an insult so we you have to do the same in terms of not insulting the people that do uh send in a question next tim prier says nathan are you going to give proof of flat earth or are you just going to keep talking about the globe nathan i gotta be real careful i don't call someone scientifically illiterate and make james upset again because people don't know what experiments are james i have to educate them so they are illiterate to the top next up let's see for some reason that seems a little bit more innocuous than scientifically illiterate but john w says can you send the link again for any items we need to fund and know about oh yeah thanks i will send the link for the crowd fund i'll drop that in the chat now also in the description southbound patch it says i'm a flat earther but t-jump hands down won that debate you've got a fan out there tom and tim prier says we appreciate it says why is nathan only one not too expected to give any evidence of his claim in the same demand that he expects his opponent to anything is this true is there a double standard here next up jc 93013 says nathan is that an astech calendar behind you on the wall or something like it i'm just wondering no it's way cooler than that that's very beautiful did you make that next up is it like is it actually like a calendar like the mind calendar is it just the face of the sun i got it cool that's really beautiful nathan and k-124 says nathan as a truth seeker oh we got that one revel rev elation says if the story was in the frigid atmosphere would it be a cooler story nathan bro yeah there are cool stories and there are cooler stories that was a good pun it was a good dad joke shame sommer let's see says tom's chair claims another one and question the answer says we measured the curve where t-jump with what get real i'll measure with lots of different things what do you want to know about we measure with light we can measure with radio waves we measure with sound waves we can measure with the visuals we can literally go to space and see it even though nathan doesn't believe that we measure with tons of different things um vibrations in the earth we can measure with vibrations in the earth earthquakes like pick pick your force we can measure the curvature of the earth with it gotcha and this one coming in from nathan r says mr thompson the moon is either a hologram or a spiritual manifestation why do you keep talking as though it's a solid object i don't think it's a solid object or no that it's a solid object so i just know the moonlight is cold and sunlight is hot moonlight is putrefying sunlight is preserving that's how you make beef jerky also sunlight drives things moonlight it's the reason you have dew on your grass in the morning and um moonlight is not even golden yellow like the sun it's bluish silver so they're not the same thing at all whatsoever they're separate and unique gotcha and thank you very much for this question coming in from tim priers says nathan doesn't understand heat transfer touch an oven when it's on and you get burnt stick your hand in that same oven without touching anything you don't get burnt class over nathan is there some sort of did you talk about heat transfer i'm trying to remember when you did fire he said if you move away from a fire source you get colder that's the part of the conversation yeah and then we talked about how you move closer to the sun and it gets colder which is opposite to what t-jump just said remember nope so if you're standing next hold on you gotta let him respond so if you're standing next to an oven and you move further away from the oven it gets colder but even if you're moving closer to the sun so you're getting closer to the sun but it's being colder because you're moving further away from the oven next up thank you very much for your question uh let's see or to be fair nathan that that super chat was originally directed toward you so if you want the last word i'll give it to you yeah t-jump just said you move away from the earth the earth is the oven so he doesn't come from the sun it comes from the earth cool story bro you said earlier in the debate this one was hot you just debunked yourself next question james jordan jarrar thanks for your question said nathan and wotan together versus vosh and jangles come on well that might happen i don't know but potso thanks for your question says nathan did you allude to how glass is made proving the earth is flat or disproving the globe earth if so how does glass being made that way help you we already answered this question james you want me to answer it again just briefly i think they might have come in late yeah they melt the glass on top of molten metal and that not only makes the glass flat but makes it free of bubbles there you go but it's i think that people are curious if you could draw together the threads or kind of connect the dots for them and how that suggests a flatter all fluids at rest uh the surface is level and horizontal to its container so when you melt the metal it flattens out you put the glass on top it flattens out when you go to the ocean look at the water there's not a ton of waves it's flat frozen lakes flat airplane level flight flat according to the faa target generation facility flat non-rotating not accounting for gravity i mean there's over 40 nasa and air force and documents where they tell you the earth is flat it's not rotating but they show you cartoons before every universal pictures movie and you go that's where i live cool story no the truman show was literally a true man show you live in a staged world a domed world everyone rounds you as an actor don't trust politicians don't trust journalists don't trust mainstream scientists they're all goopals gotcha and thank you very much for your question this one coming in from marshal the meat puppet says why did you tell arin that you had a map and model nathan do you have one now they're asking and why did you tell nathan arin that you did hey james do you want to answer that question i was very clear with you that i didn't have a map and a model when you asked me do you remember when you called me and said arin roe wants a map and a model and i said those are straw man arguments i never claim a map or claim a model large bodies of water don't curve we have no choreolos effect which mainstream science asserts that we do you can't have gas pressure without a container aren't it want to talk about any of the evidence or science that refutes his model you just wanted to straw man an argument claiming i claimed to have a map and a model which i never did you clearly remember that james i said i don't have a map and i don't have a model no i don't i actually thought you said that you did have a at least i don't remember the map part i thought you said you had a model but i would have to go back and look at the emails but thank you very much for your question john w says sorry tj sorry tj trump i should do this as i can do it myself but so happy i do not need to tom is that a friend someone you know nope and what's his name what was his name john w don't recognize it next but thank you john w and blockbeard says blasphemer can wheeler destroys flat earth like a god nathan is this true do you know this can wheeler fellow they prove moonlight's cold which debunks the whole religion that's one of the reasons i started looking in the flat earth i was like what moonlight's cold that wouldn't work on the heliocentric model but hey we're at about two hours james this is getting pretty boring so we do have more questions nathan if you can hang in there we don't have that many more i would say maybe another half hour cool can you bear with us cool this one coming in from cindra freighter strawberry said i've heard a lot of philosophers of science conclude science doesn't answer anything is this true tjump despite your use in philosophical arguments uh maybe he means with absolute certainty science doesn't answer anything with absolute certainty but it doesn't need to still gives answers just fine next up lock we got that one philosopher tiger says planets round earth round nathan wrong gotcha and the batman says nathan um w y t oh what do you what do you think of the recent fraud among glober youtubers how do you know what he's talking about next up mike billar says tom you got to do some more research dude don't make up reasons if you don't know the answer iss international space space station is in freefall not zero g right i said that i said gravity still applies to it it's near zero g because it's not as affected as gravity as it would be on the ground level which is why they have to put it in orbit because if it was stationary it would fall straight to earth because it is affected by gravity so i literally i said that gotcha thank you very much for your question coming in from eric veniceus gomez almeida thank you says nathan said earth isn't spinning because of balloons if you throw a ball upwards inside a moving car it'll fall straight down inertia first law nathan if you throw a ball upward inside a car that's not moving it also comes straight down that's not an argument for globe it works on both models i'm sorry to inform you of that get back to me next week gotcha this next question coming in from tim parire says we got that one silver harlow thanks for your question said adding the word cleaner which is a kind of thing to the word vacuum is an empty space which is sorry i butchered that silver said adding the word cleaner which is a kind of thing to the word vacuum which is an empty space changes it to an object you can use to clean the rug not now i guess the vacuum the space person's just trolling next up bubblegum gun says gravity is measurement of time bending into space gravity is a measurement of the curvature of spacetime gotcha nathan are you in agreement space has no physical properties times a concept if you think you can bend that you're i'm not gonna say it james silly next up silver harlow says that's part of your scientifically you're numb nuts if you think nothing and time causes things to happen okay literally devoid of any type of wisdom original thought process or free thinking whatsoever that's the dumbest thing anyone could ever make up next up cruger silver harlow says that's how compound words work the combination has a separate meaning which can be a different kind of thing than the parts themselves that's referring to the vacuum cleaner no i think it's about when he brought up the word space like he showed the picture of the word space i said you have to it's spacetime because the word space refers to something differently than spacetime spacetime is a specific thing in physics i think that's what it was referencing gotcha nathan what are your thoughts so adding time which is a concept to a vacuum devoid of physical properties makes it curve things cool story bro i just told you that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard i don't think the point was that the words together aren't literally just taking the individual words and what those individual words mean and just smishing them together i think the two words put together mean a physical thing that actually exists it's not just taking the concept of space and the concept of time and just taking those two concepts and just smushing them together like it does with the words the words when put together mean a specific kind of thing in physics represented by the lambdie equation in general special relativity which is a physical force it's not the concepts of space and time those are different things next up unless you have thoughts on that nathan silver harlow says we got that bubble gum gun says god says the earth is a globe flat earthers are c i a are you working for any sort of government agency like c i a nasa nathan gotcha and this one coming in from do appreciate your question we don't have too many more nathan we're almost there you look a little bit you look tired almost but this is coming in from philosopher tiger is how pathetic though five years of james can you look up a youtube video thomas he's making fun of you next up irony irony is beautiful i love it philosopher tiger says nathan i understand you may be convinced that the earth is flat thank you for taking the time to debate you are wrong minecraft globe is the truth nathan i think it's supposed to be a playful one i don't know what minecraft is is that the game pancake of destiny says t-jumps facial expressions won the debate it's a fact tim bryer thanks for your question says that's a lie bob did it three times even isolated the gyroscope still picked up the drift nathan i think it's about your friend bob the drift dv in light yeah it's a deviation in light so you can do it a hundred times the deviation will be in the light sagna who invented the interferometer not bob bob didn't invent the interferometer the guy who made the technology said it was the vortex of the ether so you can blindly believe a netflix documentary by a bunch of people who aren't scientists put it together or you could go with the guy who invented the technology bob was just using it and then got words taken out of his mouth got you there's no ether shut up t-jump no one's even talking to you right now does there not a question wait one sec is minecraft globe a game like minecraft what the heck is minecraft globe i think it's just a joke that's like saying that there's a globe in the minecraft world or something that's not really flat so like the in minecraft everything is flat it's just a flat plane but he's saying that in the game it's the real world is in the game is actually a globe it's not really flat i think i think this is how funny glovers are next up sigifredo sarabia says nathan how is moonlight colder where do you draw the line of temperature of a shadow at night and the moonlight without a sun that that would obviously heat okay i don't know if you've ever been out during the full moon but there's an obvious difference or discrepancy where the shade is and where the moonlight is so if you test where the moonlight is it's cold you test where the shade is that's hot that's actually the opposite of what happens when the sun's out so if light from the moon was being reflected by the sun then the sunlight would be hot not cold moonlight is cold not hot they're obviously two different lights that's why the moon is bluish-silver did i just went over all this like they keep asking the same questions over and over james do you understand like how they get super boring no eric venece as Gomez almighty says nathan can you show us any math on how far we're supposed to see on a flat earth provide a formula that would match flat earth model but not the globe how far we can see well i can tell you how far we should see on a globe it would be 1.22 times the square root of the observer's height and feet and we see way too far for example the black swan 10 times farther than that that would make the radius of the earth equal to the orbital path of the moon we actually falsified the radius of the earth earth's not a globe 24901 miles around cheers god jess this one coming in from tim prier says i've done an essay on egypt no the stars do not line up with the pyramids anymore cool story bro okay cool well i just just at the georgian zones and the polaris did line up with the hole they drilled in it and they made that 40 years ago now i haven't been to egypt and confirmed it so i don't know maybe you're right but polaris definitely matches up i confirmed that and you probably haven't confirmed anything about what you're talking about you're literally just saying it because that's the globe religion ladies and gentlemen i found an article that says that it's don't match up anymore question the answers says t jump what with what device can you detect curve uh any of the devices to measure any of the forces that you want i would say pick the ham radio waves that i actually presented in the youtube video ham radio waves can you be used to balance radio signals off the moon and detect the curve that's the easiest and cheapest one that anyone can afford to do in their home to do this very simple gotcha this one coming in from tim prier says okay you tested it where's the measurements and the numbers saying you tested the salt flats doesn't mean anything nathan yeah okay um cool story my youtube got deleted guys i had 850 videos that just got erased with 20 000 subscribers like what are you talking about of course i have videos that were gone i didn't have like an external hard drive with all my videos packed up on like over the last five years so i'm sure they're out there andrew rouse thanks for your question said nathan why is there a pressure gradient it's ruse or rouse like house thank you for letting me know that andrew andrew rouse yeah because there's heat being introduced so obviously that makes the gas and homogenous and anisotropic because there's energy being introduced it's not a static system it's a dynamic system you just have to go look up what that means next up mic bill arse says 15 psi on the earth's surface five psi on top of mount everest extrapolate please for both t-jump and nathan what was the question we have a new chance to respond it talks about gradient yeah no problem he was wondering about the gradient which was literally the last question i answered necessary antecedent to any pressure whatsoever as a container welcome to flatter pressure gradient guy go ahead t-jump what was the question question was and i quote 15 psi on the earth's surface five psi on top of mount everest extrapolate please in parentheses you know for both to respond to yeah so the density of the air gets lighter as you go higher because there's less stuff pushing on it to compress it because there's less oxygen above it and then so caused by gravity that means that has the pressure psi will go down the higher in the atmosphere you go until it reaches zero and there's no space got you and thank you very much for your question this one coming in from do appreciate it philosopher tiger says thank you for understanding my joke t-jump nathan are you sure you're not part of the cia though nathan are you secretly a brilliant spy from the cia nathan no sense of humor all right mike bill ars says nathan's oh let's see let's see looking for more questions tim prier says yep still try to pick the article funny how nathan didn't read the part where it says the distance to the moon nathan is that true did you not read that part i guess i didn't yeah the argue the article we pulled up about the moon being in the atmosphere i think it's the it's the one that he's talking about oh well i guess that means the moon's a ball on the earth's a ball then because that article said that how far the moon was that's a good one as this is what it's devolving devolving into tim prier says those are words not measurements nathan nathan their words not measurements tim prier says what do you think he's wrong okay well um so you okay well we you're quite the intellectual over there all right so next i'm teasing you i'm teasing you this one coming in from we've got maybe one more i i saw a standard question that i picked out a chat and let's see this one coming in from colossus says well nathan team up with g-man again maybe i like g-man you've got it and silver harlow says yes so maybe g-man and nathan pairing up again silver harlow says yes i meant quote spacetime unquote is like quote vacuum cleaner unquote the compound word or phrase means something different than the parts nathan okay like that was like that person like literally made another super chat about their other super chat talking about a vacuum cleaner but you are you trying to understand their point nathan nathan talking about vacuum cleaner yeah but nonetheless if it's an analog that's true like that is you know gives the illustrates a principle well then it's an it's an analogy big deal so are you trying to understand it i've seen a vacuum cleaner i've never seen spacetime okay i guess you're why you disagree and oh that other question this one coming in from this is interesting because no i want to press you on this question this one was asked already but someone else asked it as a standard question as well what's the motivation for a globe earth conspiracy i think you had mentioned um that they get paid an incredible amount of money like but i i think they're not clear on like why would they get paid significantly less if they just admitted that it was a flatter like they it just seems like an arbitrary difference like why would that make it such that if they said like okay we admit it's a flat earth like are you saying because oh okay no this is one maybe you're thinking maybe it's that if they were to go back on it now they would look like fools and know they would get their funding cut so now they could never go back and say oh we were wrong this whole time it's actually been flat because they'd lose all their funding is that what you were saying Nathan nothing stole all the money it's not funding they are thieves they stole all the money it's not that we got it wrong and the earth is flat you wouldn't have a space agency unless you're on a ball in space so the entire thing was a fraud they stole trillions of dollars from the american people all of you guys sat there every friday watching star wars and space balls and all these stupid movies about space wasting your time not growing food not hanging out with your family not exercising it's ridiculous so enjoy the matrix it's you know truth isn't for everyone i so the motivation i think i get it so i think his motivation is that the reason they invented the globe theory was because it's by doing that they could get funding from the government to make nasa is that no i my answer is i'm not lying to you i don't know why all you guys want me to speculate on why a bunch of evil people steal 50 million dollars a day go ask them i'm not lying to you bro okay so you want me to like conjure i don't have like a crystal ball that i could just rub it's like why are the elite telling us earth's a globe oh look it's this okay go figure it out for yourself bro maybe they're gonna launch an alien invasion and you don't get aliens on a flat earth because we live in a dome ferment so maybe the reason they lied hasn't even happened yet and you're over here going why would they look tell me why they lie and it hasn't even happened yet so just take a chill pill on the why they would lie who cares they lie get over it when you meet one of the top 1% of the 1% who's lying to you about the earth ask him why you lying to me about the shape of the earth i don't know for sure but i know 52 million dollars a day is a pretty good reason to lie just so i understand right because and i'm being sincere i'm not being like facetious because i didn't know that this is like so would you take the position that the earth isn't in space that it is like kind of like on the ultimate foundation of reality that is some it's not extended in space the space is a vacuum it violates the second law of thermodynamics we wouldn't have gas pressure on earth if the space was a vacuum that they tell us is which is why there's hundreds if not thousands of videos of nasa faking space with harnesses green screens wires hairspray augmented reality bubbles in the pool one of the astronauts actually said he was drowning during a live feed now i don't know if you know this but space is a vacuum you shouldn't drown in space okay and i asked three different nasa employees why that happened i got three different answers one said spit one said it was sweat and another one said it was a malfunction in the soup so they can't literally keep their lives straight at all some astronauts say you can't see stars in space some astronauts say you can see stars in space and planets and moons and magylena clouds they astronauts can't get their story straight there's only 550 of them like how pathetic is that so yes space is fake james on the flat earth the sky's a firmament and above that would be gosh and tim prier says that didn't show numbers for those measurements namely when they had asked about numbers and they said i want numbers nathan numbers isn't what you demanded i think they're saying like you asked the same from tom i gave plenty of numbers the black swan we observed from 10 miles out the horizon the horizon should be 1.225 times those are numbers 1.225 times the square root of the observer's height and feet so if it's one that's another number then you would multiply it by one that's another number so we take 1.225 another number multiply it by one another number you have a horizon at 1.225 miles out we've observed it at over 10 10 that's another number miles out we falsified the globe model with numbers and i gave them to you just now welcome to flat earth gotcha this one from revelation last one that i have here in the list says is the candy horizon is the candy horizon is where your eye line meets the end of the fruit roll up next up want to say thank you so much to our guests we really do appreciate them folks as always we want to encourage you to attack the arguments instead of the person and folks this is the last debate of our 12 hour stream i don't know if you guys know this if you scroll back on the timer my dear friends you will see that if you go all the way back to the very start that was 10 hours and 39 minutes ago as our first debate was on veganism it was a tag team debate then we had a debate on black lives matter then we had a debate on whether or not there's evidence for intelligent design so folks if you have not already enjoyed this whole stream highly encourage you to do so as this has been a huge group effort in terms of all the debaters who were thankful for coming on the show in order to make this happen and want to encourage you hey folks we are pumped about this future as i'm going to just mention this really quick folks we are thrilled we're at 90 percent for the fundraiser that you see on the far right side of the screen we are absolutely thrilled and we want to encourage you if you have not already done so i am going to throw the crowdfund link in the description we have gotten up to where we're almost at the end folks we only have six days left and we're at 90 percent which is absolutely phenomenal so i do want you to check this out it is going to be absolutely epic the crowdfund i am putting in the old live chat and so we absolutely want to encourage you to join in that crowdfund with us as we are going to get that remaining 10 percent and make this debate that you were seeing on the bottom right of your screen between christian apologist dr kenny rhodes and matt billahunty as they will be debating on june 5th and we are going to make it happen folks so i want to encourage you to join in that crowdfund with us you could give as little as a dollar if you want and that helps us take bigger risks in terms of getting bigger headliner debates as we are striving to build this channel and provide a neutral playing field for everybody to make their case so thank you one last time tom and nathan i'll be back in just a moment folks with a post credit scene but want to say again tom and nathan it's been a pleasure to have you thanks guys thanks for coming up absolutely thank you guys and folks as mentioned i'll be back in just a moment so stick around absolutely excited let me just switch over i've got to change my picture so that shows the right one all right there it is and then as you can see folks we're absolutely pumped as this Kickstarter effort it is absolutely going to you could say make it to the ultimate goal and that's one of the reasons why we have been doing this stream so we started at 11 30 in the morning eastern time so we still got about an hour to go and we are thrilled to do that as i've got a lot of channel updates a lot of upcoming debates i can tell you about i do have to use the restroom in a second and that's something that i have to get up for because it just wouldn't be appropriate to do it here but we are pumped you guys and we want to say thank you so much for all of your support as today was a wild one four debates in 12 hours and this i want to encourage you folks if you have enjoyed this channel if you're like man i i enjoy this is a fun time and this is actually a channel that i enjoy watching want to say my dear friends we want to grow and we want to keep providing you with more epic content and so want to highly encourage you folks the epic fundraiser crowdfund that i have linked in the description and it's pinned at the top of the live chat i want to show you some of the details for this as we're at 90 guys you can see on the far right side of your screen all the way over there you can see that pink meter is almost at the top we're going to make it folks so we are pumped and let me show you first this upcoming debate is going to be epic it's going to be on whether or not there is good evidence for god between doctor and scholar and christian apologist kenny rhodes and matt billahunty and we have to make it to the 100 of our goal in order for this event to happen i've already made the promises and so all of that is set but we're determined folks and you might be like boy james are you sure you can do it i don't know about that i uh what do you you know how do you know you can do it we've already done it folks in january we did something very similar to this namely we did a crowdfund on kickstarter this time we're using any go-go as the platform and on this platform we with 143 people raised 3100 dollars we are absolutely determined we are going to get there this time we've already demonstrated we can do it folks we i'm determined and i don't care if it's me and t jump and steven steen that have to do a car wash in the middle of may or late may in colorado where it's still chili we're going to make this goal we've already done it and we've got the experience to do it again also it is so easy to sign in so let me show you on screen indiegogo that you see on the top left that is from basically that is the web page for the crowdfund that we are using and so it's kind of like go fund me except better and here's why one is so easy to sign in you really you don't even have to create like a full account you can do kind of like a guest sign in or you can sign in with facebook whatever you want easy peasy and i want to show you this as well we have these perks so unlike go fund me we are trying to fundraise for this debate for the honorariums for the guests but the trick is we are absolutely pumped and here's why as you see there are different levels of perks or kind of like tier levels one is like for the couple for the price of a cup of coffee if you throw a few bucks in that helps make the debate happen so we are pumped about that and we're determined folks we are absolutely determined and so join us be a part of this project for only like if you want to throw a dollar and how easy is that dollar like who cares and if everybody on the stream was willing to let's say if you haven't already if you throw in a dollar that helps immensely i mean that right there would honestly probably get us to our goal so if you've ever thought like yeah this channel gives me a value this strategy of using the crowdfund will allow us to take bigger risks if you ever want to see a debate on here with like let's say bill nye and i don't know maybe dr fuzz rana on creation evolution or something like that well let me tell you friends this Kickstarter i think this Kickstarter strategy or this crowdfund strategy is the way that we're going to be able to do that and so even if you throw in a buck it just shows us that you're behind the strategy you're behind the idea so we want to encourage you to do that and we only have six days the crowdfund ends in six days so it's going fast folks but don't worry we're at 90 percent and we're going to get over 100 percent believe me so the next tier is you know throw in a few extra dollars that helps us make the event huge your name on screen is the next one at the very top of the screen now so that's where we would put your name in the ticker during the debate your name being read out loud that's something where we would read everybody's name out loud at the end of the debate a modern day debate coffee mug is the next tier as you can see as well as an embossed postcard a modern day debate t-shirt which is epic and you might be wondering well james do i just get the perk that i sign up for well here it's better you not only get that perk you get all of the perks that are below it so let me give you an example let's say you put in 50 for a modern day debate t-shirt and to help make this project actually happen you not only get the t-shirt but you'd get the embossed postcard plus the modern day debate coffee mug in the mail plus your name read out loud at the end of the debate plus your name on screen so that's how it works so you would get all the things that are at your tier or below it and so we are pumped you guys let me show you some of the other tiers as we've got some new ones on here one the coffee mug is new as i've mentioned but also new the modern day debate hoodie is the next tier after the t-shirt and then zoom chat with james and then meet and greet with guests now some of these are limited so do want to let you know that they are close to running out so for example zoom chat with james that's actually there's only one left i'm surprised and then meet and greet with guests i think there's maybe two left so that's out of five so most of them for each of those categories have already been claimed so do want to let you know that and we appreciate your support more than you know as like i said if you want to see a debate someday where we have like matt let's say uh um let's say maybe someday we go for like uh richard dockens and dr nathaniel jensen a creationist he's he got his phd at like uc boulder i can't remember exactly no his is actually brown so if you wanted to see a debate between two people like that which i would think would be absolutely awesome that's something we want to get a hold of this crowdfund strategy so we can keep doing it better each time and so as you see far side of your screen look we're at 90% only six days left so now is the time to throw in if you haven't already and thank you so much for those of you who are already thrown in we do appreciate that so much seriously thanks for your support of the channel and tim prior thanks for your super chat said ha ha once he realized i want to demand the same evidence of him he doesn't want to debate epic well we hope thanks for your support tim seriously and thank you very much john w we do appreciate your support of the channel what is a hi to you in chat and i'm going to do that right now as we do appreciate you just hanging out here and it's fun for me to get to hang out with you so mark reid thanks for being here as well as true rex gaming and mac gaver institute of ninja technology thanks for coming by as well as earth rise side show now thanks for your help and i will give an update on the mod stuff i have to go to the bathroom in just a couple minutes but i want to say hi to more people first and then i'll be right back as i will have to use the restroom at some point and then kevin brown good to see you thanks for being here at the old channel and if it's your first time here and you're like i'm new to this hey hit that subscribe button we've got a lot of juicy upcoming debates and we do a lot of science debates so if you enjoy topics on science like creation evolution as well as flat earth big foot sometimes whether or not there is a big foot and whether the evidence is compelling all that stuff want to let you know we've got a lot of juicy upcoming debates so hit that subscribe button whole can break thanks for coming by so thanks james appreciate that support seriously bo smith thanks for your support as well says thanks james thank you bo that seriously means a lot we do appreciate it and then rev elation glad you're here and then hannah anderson says james could you explain the crowdfunding efforts and what the money is used for yes thanks for asking so let me give you the gist of it the by far the majority of the funds are used for the honorariums for the speakers so as we keep growing the next one we're hoping to go kind of like with a big you might say a hail mary like we want to go for like some big name people because don't get me wrong dr kenny roads is a very respected scholar and matt delandy is a very respected debater but there are a lot of talented people we haven't had on yet and so this is going to potentially open the door and the vast majority of the money goes to the honorariums the rest of the money here's how the rest of it works is the rest of the funds go toward usually three things one Kickstarter fees so i do build the fees in two um oh we i do build in the expenses for taxes so that way that that's covered as well because the money will be taxed and so it's kind of like built in to cover it three if we have enough funds we want to do promotion in other words advertisements to get the word out as we really do want to make these events huge so that they are epic projects and so that's you could say the main things normally what i would do when i forgot to do it this time is i should have like i we might instead of it use being used for ads this time we might not be able to do that as much as i've got to cover the costs of all the merchandise because that's something i didn't do the math on like an idiot i i looked at the total we had to raise and i didn't factor in the the the cost of like the the materials because we have to pay for the t-shirts being made and then being mailed out or mailed out that's actually covered that's part of the fees that but nonetheless a t-shirt from teespring is 10 bucks a sweatshirt a hoodie is 30 which is like this kind of a lot so a coffee mug is 10 and so long story short we might not be able to use much money for advertising because i've got to cover the expenses for those so that's one of the other expenses though because so in other words like the perks i'm not getting the perks for free those are something that we got to get from teespring but thanks for that question let me know if you have any other questions and then i want to let you know at the crowdfund page there is a graph that shows what percentage goes where just so in case nobody saw it um if you go to the about page i put in a pie graph that shows what proportion of the funds raised is going to which purpose and so do want to if anybody hasn't seen that preachers angry truth says great job modern day debate thank you for your kind words that that really does mean a lot we appreciate that support and thank you for your super chat this one coming in from tim prior says nathan should not be allowed to talk about science no science backs up flat earth thank you for letting me know your thoughts on that and singularity thank you for being here with us we might take a break from flat earth there's actually tim prior um not forever but we um might just for a while and so it's uh really only because we think the audience might be getting tired out but amanda thanks for being with us at 90 percent of the way there it is it is epic that we are absolutely determined we're going to make it and so we're 91 percent now so let me update the page really quick as it is jumped it has jumped even more so we're pumped about that two one five and then you probably won't be able to see it it's a one percent jump but nonetheless it is awesome that we have made another jump so we're at as you can see on screen we're at 3215 so we are so close to having this completely wrapped up as i'm excited for it i'm excited for the debate with matt and kenny you guys this is going to be epic and so we want to have it such that last time quick side note last time you had to put into the crowd fund even just a few bucks if you put three dollars in you'd get to watch the the event live this time we were like you know what i think most people they're not doing it because they want to watch the event live they're doing because they just support the channel they want to see us do bigger events so this time the cool thing is uh we as of now we plan on showing because last time what we did is you had to put in the crowd fund to watch it live and if you didn't put in the crowd fund we'd still show it to the public but it was put on the channel a couple days later this time what we want to do is we want people to not only be able to watch it a couple days later but also watch it live and so as long as we keep getting closer to that night with that to that 100 percent we'll be able to do that and so thank you so much tacky on who said gotcha modern day debate ten dollars in the pot thank you for your support seriously that means a lot i'm really excited about this as a strategy i think this is going to seriously really unlock doors for us in terms of bigger epic more awesome events and so long story short though if we if we see it like where it's like ooh we're not anywhere close because we usually have about 2000 people watch matt live and so if you enjoy watching matt want to say hey like throw a few bucks in there as this is a great way for us to also say thank you to matt as we really do appreciate matt he's helped the channel grow immensely a lot of our subscribers have come from people who have seen matt dilanti debates and so if there aren't enough people or like maybe we get to like tuesday or wednesday and we're like uh we're not you know we haven't moved we're not increasing in terms of getting to that 100 percent we might go back to the old way where we have it such that if you want to watch it live you have to throw into the crowd fund but we're kind of like not sure so um it depends on how well it goes between now and then and then flat earth guys have great job thanks for your kind words john howe said where is the james and tjump bikini car wash colorado that's funny no deal i mean hey i'll do it if i have to though and i'll make tom do it too so thanks so much for being here uh singularity appreciate your kind words saying good job and then also four four true four four four truth thanks for being with us as well as hannah anderson thank you so much for all of your support and yeah thank you so much to those of you who have thrown into the kickstarter you have no idea how much we appreciate that i like even a person who draws in a dollar it's like seriously thanks for your support of the channel like that just shows us that you're excited for us to move into kind of the bigger debates world as we've had big debates don't get me wrong but we know we can do even bigger batter events thanks john w said i gave already thank you john w for having given we really do appreciate it and then let me just catch up with chat as it's moving fast thanks darth revin said i still think you should reach out to vlad jaff jaffy for the communism socialism debate the guy would be awesome on it against its side you can reach out to him i'm just i'm just saying it's like you i mean too but it's so busy that it's not that i'm turning down the idea sometimes it's just so busy that i'm like if you want to reach out for real like and you find out that they want to come on like i'm totally open to hosting but right now i'm not joking i've got a list of about 50 people that people have told me i should reach out to and it's hard to keep up with it i'm i hate to say that but it's just between the channel and then the doctorate so working on the doctorate it's just really hard and so let's see i appreciate your idea but i i just i got to be honest i've got a list of 50 people to reach out to and so otherwise it's going to be a long time before i do mark read thanks for kind words that good to be here appreciate that top dog shattuck said we need to get kneel to grass tyson and i'm very serious what i say like that might be a real possibility like that's the kind of thing we want to do in the future and so thanks melon melon as melanase pam says props to james for making this amazing stream possible keep it up thank you so much for your support seriously 12 hours we're almost there and we do appreciate you've got channel updates and upcoming debates to talk about so i am pumped to do my first ever 12 hour stream and then uh and the jord said was it a big dumpster fire no it was actually pretty chill tonight thank you kevin brown said thanks james thank you kevin appreciate that and then let's see i'm almost caught up sleepless sam sleepless sam thanks for coming by and ghost light thanks for donating to the cause we really do appreciate that so it means a lot and then nathan ars says mr thompson is a is not a real flat earther i don't know about that you'd have to ask him but mr p says james our patreon would prefer their shirts sweat free although depending on who's sweat it is you could consider raising the price that's fun funny um yeah we have to figure out about we used to have it where the lowest patreon tier was like you'd get to watch the show for free but if we have it live i've got to think of a new um what's the word i'm looking for i've got to think of a new way to do it because we've got to offer a new perk and then and the george said 12 hours aren't you tired don't you need to pee i do need to pee i have peed several times throughout the day but i am i'm not tired yet but surprisingly i'm not as tired as i thought i would be resuel of course is wonderful stuff james can you zoom in on the thermometer as it gets closer to 100 that's a good idea i like that thank you for saying that and then that's funny amanda says can you film the car wash for those of us who can't get there that's funny uh let's see uh tom good old tom thanks for your support though and dr threven says i understand i'm i'm just a terrible person in terrible in person type when when getting ahold of people i have a huge family and we don't even talk we live six minutes away from each other i keep trying though i totally understand that my friend and we're in the same boat for real and then stripper liquor said today on his channel shermer said he will not debate anymore wow that's juicy and the george said said well i didn't know about that by the way so and the george said said we'll have one million subs before you know it we're excited about the future folks we really do we think that this is going to keep growing and we're excited about that and thanks for reminding me brook who said hey the twitch is wanting to say hello oh you're right thanks for reminding me twitch chat i'm sorry i've been behind tapats all good to see you as well as brooks sparrow and thanks for coming by everybody in twitch is it calls wins let me know how it's pronounced we're glad you're here thanks for hanging out with us and the more perfect union thanks for coming by as well and yeah we're excited though you guys it's just really it's honestly it's so fun and want to let you know if you didn't know if you're hanging out in twitch and you're watching one want to remind you to hit that follow button but also want to remind you that we actually have a we stream simultaneously on youtube our youtube i'm going to throw that into the chat right now and so if you want to click on that you can get you can hop on over to our youtube channel where we're streaming live too as i am about to quick run to the restroom but yes thank you guys i'm going to be right back i'm just going to use the restroom and then i will tell you about more epic upcoming debates as well as talk about some moderator stuff so moderators if you have any questions i know there have been a lot of changes recently uh please let me know and i will be keeping an eye on the chat as i go to the bathroom yeah amazing beta male okay my dear friends i am pumped to be back thank you so much for hanging out want to let you know about some sweet stuff linguisty good to see you back thanks for coming back and yes you got a lot to catch up with this has been a long stream so let me tell you we're at are we at 11 hours and five minutes so we have 55 more minutes that's all right i thought it was a half hour but nonetheless we're going to make it in fact that actually makes sense that it would be 55 minutes because we started pretty late so what we'll do is i want to give you channel updates as well as talk about upcoming debates and i also want to oh go over mod stuff so moderators i know that i i want to say first thank you so much seriously you guys honestly rock you have no idea how much i appreciate you seriously and i never say it enough i really don't so seriously thank you moderators for doing a great job and i want to say first i made a mistake on i think it was last friday i i was painting with broad brush strokes and i accidentally said i said the moderators are biased and i did not mean it to be a way of throwing you under the bus it was more to say like everybody has a bias i have a bias as a moderator as a host and i have like multiple biases it's here let me just tell you i'm so this isn't my way of like being like wow james you're hard on everybody including yourself it's like well no let me tell you so like i'm working on my doctorate in psychology i i teach college students psychology like general psychology is like what i do that's my like job like at my phd it is true that everybody has confirmation bias and pretty much in like every domain so those who are like oh no i'm neutral like when i hear that i'm like they're like i'm i'm non-biased i'm like uh little psychology would suggest like you're like unless you're in human like you're you're bi you have confirmation bias among other biases that we have but nonetheless the point is this i did not mean to throw you under the bus and so i i sincerely apologize i should have been more careful with how i spoke i'm sorry moderators because i it wasn't meant to beat up on you and i'm sorry that i what i should have said is you know like i should have explained it better in terms of what i meant and also um and you know if there are cases where you we see me where i might if i did say something where it's like uh james i was pretty currently biased i would be like okay call it out like let me know hold me accountable that's what we need is accountability like transparency like you guys just be hope you know it's a safe place to say james like i think you were totally letting that person talk more than the other person or whatever the other thing is um likewise like it's it's good for everybody of accountability and so tim prior thanks for your super chat as well said words taken out of his mouth except you could hear him saying it i don't remember who you're talking about nathan um yes brian griffin we are still going this is our 12 hour stream and we have 55 more minutes and i am going over channel updates and talking about upcoming debates darth revan says well i reached out hope mr. jaffer responds i think he will be a great addition of the show so fingers crossed thank you darth seriously for doing that that's really kind of you i do appreciate it i know that like taking your time and energy to do that i seriously appreciate it so thank you and louis guiles thank you for coming by we're glad you're here as well as rabid raccoon we're glad you're here and third finger from the right good to see you again and coffee troll thanks for coming by um oh coffee troll thanks for understanding said i assume that's what you meant james namely that we're all just human yeah thanks so much i appreciate you saying that and then also i know there was some confusion on what is okay to moderate versus like what do we want to leave alone i and i'll just clarify this in case there's confusion and anybody can ask if a person attacks somebody who's a speaker they say oh this person's a bad person you remember last time we had mad on somebody called him an az i and it was like okay why are people in the chat saying that because he's not that now pardon my burp basically my thing here is i'm saying that obviously is not okay same with if they say somebody is you know they make fun of somebody's appearance or if they're trying to if they're malevolent they're trying to let's say hurt somebody's feelings and so for example they're saying oh you know so and so that that debater is just a you know like let's say it's a trans person and they say that's just a a guy in a dress it's like you're you're trying to go for the throat like you're really trying to hurt their feelings and it's like that's not what we want like so in that case if it's malevolent like that then we'll say like we're gonna we're gonna give them a timeout we're gonna say hey if you if you do anything like that anymore we're gonna have to ban you because um that's not cool like you're trying to hurt that person's feelings on purpose the other thing is some people are like well what about if they disagree on like for example last time there was confusion on what does it mean if somebody says I they say let's say they say my definition of gender or a woman is I would say that it includes both like women more broadly as well as uh it means trans women as well that like trans women you could say fall under the umbrella of women if they say that don't ban them you know they're giving their opinion on what definition is which right and likewise the door swings both ways if they were to say well I don't actually think that trans women would be under the umbrella of the definition of women like I think they're separate categories then I would say don't ban them either like it is that people are gonna different disagree on definitions and what falls under what conceptual umbrella and all sorts of stuff like that and so just want to let you know it's like don't ban them that's not a reason to ban them and so long story short thanks for your patience is hopefully that makes it clear in case there's any confusion yet here's where it gets a little bit tricky I don't like the stuff that attacks a group now everybody is on the same page obviously everybody would say we're not going to let people say something like like let's say they said people of this race are evil it's like it's not what we want at the channel but likewise I don't want people to say that about atheists or Christians either because sometimes people oh atheists they're like they're always evil or whatever or Christians are evil and they ruin the world I'm like geez like by the way those are protected classes I mean it doesn't like it doesn't mean that you can't use your freedom of speech in America to say that if you want but I'm just saying like if you think of like the 1964 Civil Rights Act things like that those are both race and religion or lack thereof are protected classes so I'm kind of like geez this is kind of like an important demographic type of thing that people are attacking so that's where I would say we want to give them a warning again where if you know it's funny that if it's about race it seems more clearly people recognize that that's hate speech if they said it about a race it's like yeah that's hate speech like why are you saying that the X group is evil but likewise like people are kind of slow to realize like it's also really bad and unfair to say oh atheists are evil or Christians are evil like that's that's really bad for real I think a lot of people are like oh no it's fine if you're talking about a religious group like you could say all the you can say that the the Muslims or the Christians are evil it's like let's not so that's my thing is attack the arguments that's one thing is like by the way when you see people who are attacking the people or the group it's pretty clear they probably aren't doing well handling the argument so it you know it just goes to show a lot but Vinnie Anderson says is there more leeway for borderline insulting rhetoric when it's on topic like when I said I felt bad for Nathan's middle school teachers earlier oh I didn't even see you saying that um I would say pardon my yawn I would rather people not do that I mean there's it's all on a spectrum so people the mods are probably going to be more patient with you if it's something like that um but nonetheless yeah you know we're not it's not really like it was like kind of like why don't you just attack your arguments now it there's a there's such a thing as playful needling and we want to still okay that like teasing because I tease Nathan sometimes and I tease like everybody sometimes like whenever JF comes on and I say oh your brother destiny like I say that as a joke because they hate each other like so like I there's like leniency where I don't want people to feel like they're walking on eggshells but we do want to like have it a little bit more like we want our guests to feel appreciated and I think they're fine with having their arguments attacked nobody minds that that's what they expected but when when people like attack their appearance and stuff that's the worst but anyway thank you coffee troll says all good James good luck with the channel always thank you for that coffee troll and then Darth Revan says does that apply to ideologies because lots of people myself included let me just the chats moving on me I do specify about the actions such as Christian burning pagans in Europe for religious dominance is evil and so but here's the thing Darth Revan you're saying that Christians who like alleged Christians who do this alleged burning are bad that's one thing but to say Christians are evil that that I would still say is like I am amazed like so here do it do it this way if you can put in the name of like let's say a particular race like let's say Asians and it would be if it would be okay to say it then it's like that's a decent litmus test but if it was something where it's like oh yeah you shouldn't say that about Asians like one time I remember I heard a person say this is in real life and that's why I was so surprised I was like wow is they said I'm done with religious people and I'm like that's that's pretty painting with broad brush strokes isn't it like because it's kind of like if you were to say I'm done with Asian people it'd be like everybody would be like oh my gosh like that that's clearly it would just sound terrible and so for me I would say I don't think writing off any group in that way is good and so if you want to point out like bad things that have done been done by different groups so for example we've had the debate is Christianity dangerous that's fair game we'll host it again I'm sure that's okay and you know people bring up cases of like well hey look here was when you know these people professing to be Christians did x y and z which is bad that's okay that's fair game so yeah there's a little gray and you know there's always it's like a conceptual analysis folks it's like defining a chair like I think you guys have probably already seen that enough you know it comes as it comes up in debates is like oh gosh it's so hard to define a chair um maybe you haven't but the the point is like you have all these cases where it's like will is a stool a chair because if you usually we'd define a chair a lot of things people would be like well I don't know it's got four legs you can sit on it like I don't know a stool or not because it doesn't have a back it has to have a back and it's like well what if it has half a back like a chair then or what if it um like what we call a beanbag chair like it doesn't have a back at all like it just these like things where it's like conceptual analysis you can always find some sort of counter example to where it's like you can find something that you'd usually call a chair but it doesn't fit your define your definition so long story short we'll work through each time we'll have new things that come up over the years but why w y 7 c h thanks for coming by we're glad you're here and also bad times thanks for coming by we are pumped here with us and here you might be thinking like oh are you trying to make a safe space like bad times um no we're not trying to create a safe space where it's like oh it's like nice and happy we don't want anybody to possibly be offended and we know we offend people believing I get tweets all the time about how we are you shouldn't platform this person or that idea the thing here is it's not an intelligent strategy so bad times if you're like oh I would let um I would let people let's say bad times you let's say said I would let people trash the guests they could say whatever they want about the guests and it's like all right good luck because now the guests aren't going to come back to your channel and it's not a sustainable strategy because you weren't thinking ahead because you weren't very clever in that case and you now have a bunch of guests who don't want to come back because they've been trashed in the live chat it's not a sustainable way to run a debate channel it just doesn't even make sense even if you were completely cold to anybody's feelings it's just more practical so um so that's the reason and so when you say like feelings safe space uh kind of a straw man like that's not the reason for why we wanted to have these rules and then Danny 3648 good to see you back and then funny stripper liquor says james teases all of us with those eyes and then dan karan thanks glad you made it and thanks for your support from mark where you said give a like for this amazing stream thank you for your support and so is there any confusion on the the rules for mods though let me know all over cat well said would it be okay if I asked tom if a ham radio proves the shape of the earth does a ken ham radio prove the age of the earth it definitely does that's definitely fair game anything that has a pun but linguisty says has your opinion changed on anything by being a moderator yeah i think i've certainly changed my opinion on arguments i don't know if i've changed my mind on whole positions like have i gone from being like a like a a democrat to a republican or republican to a democrat whatever um no i'm about where i was roughly i've maybe like slowly moved one way or another um because usually there are sometimes where it's like oh i thought that argument was a bad argument because of this objection but then i just heard this response to that objection and it kind of saves the argument where i'm like that argument's not bad so but yeah good question and then uh linguisty says has your opinion changed oh yeah i got that and then i'm almost caught up thanks for your patience fox fox blogs plus monitor debate i would love to be on another debate again if you need someone to debate for biology of evolution or atheism thank you fox i appreciate you offering that and i gotta be honest fox one thing that helps us a ton um i'll shoot me an email and we could talk about it if you want but um i'll give you more dates as we're becoming a little bit more it's not as easy as it used to be um for you this one of the conditions wouldn't be a problem at all namely we we're really pushing hard for people to wear um or to be on camera during the debate and i know that you were on camera last time so don't worry about that but that's something we're becoming more strict on because we just feel like it increases the value of the the show and then thanks starts brevin i agree sometimes things do come off as improper in the in the depending on the context linguisty says um are atheist arguments ever convincing to you how are you still a christian with so much t jump that's funny i mean i mean this in the most loving way but there are believe it or not in the peer-reviewed literature i'm shocked sometimes that some people don't know that that they don't i'm not saying that this is you but i do want to mention um and i know that you're joking there but there's peer-reviewed literature from atheists as well as i've got to renew my my zoom stream give me a second there's peer-reviewed literature from atheists as well as christians in philosophy who have talked about like philosophy you know philosophy of religion type arguments for and against god's existence and that's primarily like what my beliefs have been shaped on such that the i would highly recommend when people sometimes when people tell me like how man i can't believe you're still you still believe and it's like after you watch all these debates it's like no i'm not not offending anybody but like i so i got my masters in philosophy and i got a bachelor's in philosophy and so for probably three or four i'd say probably frankly more like five or maybe close to like ten if you include all my informal studies as well i had read like a lot of peer-reviewed work and so i do learn things at the channel still but i i just want to mention that when sometimes when people are like man i've been at this channel and it's totally changed my beliefs i'm like well be careful like you might want to read that like there's a lot of peer-reviewed work out there that's good and this we do sometimes have world-class scholars like we're we're trying to schedule a debate with gram oppie and liz jackson and gram oppie is like maybe the most respected atheist philosopher that there is today so we do get some high-level speakers on here no doubt and not just the ones with a lot of formal education there are great debaters from all walks of life however i would say like the the peer-reviewed arguments are the ones that have been through the crucible the most they are the the best arguments whether they be arguments for atheism or religion you know and so just want to mention that um hannah anderson thanks for coming by and we oh yeah the mods i know that some mods are turned off by the fact that we've asked the moderators if they would be willing to not not debate people in the live chat and the reason is just because we don't want we want moderated debate to be beyond reproach when it comes to being neutral and what would happen sometimes is sometimes people will come to the channel for the first time and they were like oh um james all of your moderators are politically to the right or politically to the left or christian or atheist whatever it is and so what they would do is they would say this looks like like james i i'm starting to think that these people um i'm starting to think this channel is biased in favor of this position or that position and so i would have to tell them like uh no we're not it's just that mo we have moderators from all walks of life but they were basically they just not all of them are here tonight and they're just so happened to be by random chance all of them are atheists or all of them are christian so long story short i just want to mention that that's the reason is we just don't want people to get the wrong idea about the channel and so want to remind you if you haven't hit like please do hit that like button as that does help the stream folks seriously that does motivate me to do more streams as we see like hey people are interacting with this they're excited about this and so we really do appreciate all of that and so but yeah moderators please let me know if you've heard about that or maybe you haven't heard about that uh namely that we have this kind of new rule where we want to ask moderators if they'd be so kind as to not debate in the chat and not that they weren't kind before they were but we just want to be super neutral you could say and then pumped you guys thanks so much as we had a new donation come in and so i'm updating the stream ticker right now so as you can see on screen we are rocking it with 32 41 which is higher than our last kick starter so we have that's awesome you guys and we're at 92 percent we only have eight percent to go it's going to be amazing we're going to crush this goal believe me we've got only six days left folks so thank you guys so much for your support and then youtube surgeon general says engaging in friendly conversation is okay i've got to think about it um i know that it's like well what if i'm trying to persuade people it's like well because like let's say you're like i noticed somebody saying this and i i i want to try to persuade them out of it i got to be honest i as of now i'm open to persuasion but i i don't i don't think it's uh it's not what we really want from the moderators i know that's hard because it's like it makes the moderators is like well i'm just totally an observer i can't debate anybody or even try to persuade them to a new position um but yeah that is kind of what it would mean is that we wouldn't even want people to in a friendly conversation try to persuade people and so fox vlogs thanks i saw your chat um i i think i mentioned if you shoot me an email or a dm on twitter i might be able to share more info on like what might work for possible debates and then thanks for your support christopher hatch said james would you ever bring on nick fentes i'm open to it i know that youtube i think he's again he's banned or something but i do want to mention that um we are willing to roll the dice so if he wanted to come on i'd be willing to host i don't know if he's actually banned so i don't mean to spread that rumor if it's not true and then i would say friendly conversation is good youtube surge in general but if what so for example we we want mods if you see a new person we want people to feel welcome and to be like greeted and so that's why i would encourage mods i really do want to encourage mods if you'd be willing to say hello especially to new faces and say like hey we're glad you're here you know earth rise or bar and vangy thanks for coming by that is totally cool that so if you mean friendly conversation i mean that 100 it's okay if you mean friendly conversation as in trying to persuade them of a particular view of any kind i'm like they might think that you're kind of representative of where the channel stands and so i don't know i'm like not super big on it so that's uh we just it's that the mods uh basically we want it to be fair for everybody and so yeah thanks for your super chat alex tine good to see you glad you made it and then yeah we are pumped though i want to tell you that for a number of reasons amazing let me show you let's see thank you so much for those of you who are jumping in on that crowdfund which is pinned at the top of the chat it is on fire you guys i am excited we are pumped to make it to this goal and i can tell it's coming soon i am very confident to that and so back into the old twitch chat want to say hi brooks sparrow thanks for coming by and gg and x or is it g gen x thanks for coming by and then let's see said all those philosophers are dumb i sometimes i'm surprised i don't know if you're being serious or joking but like i i try to tell like i was there is there are some people not all i don't want to generalize because that wouldn't be fair but there are some people where i try to tell them like hey there are phd level philosophers who are atheists who give arguments you know let's say against god and they say no i don't like those i like the ones on youtube and it's like well wait when when it comes to flat earth you say oh you know you're silly if you use youtube as your main source of learning about something and uh you should definitely use like the top level people namely scientists and they usually mean scientists who you know people with a phd in science and one of the scientific fields and who maybe you're actively doing research in science and so they're like that's who you should go with and maybe the the peer reviewed ones but when it comes to philosophy i'm amazed that some people and i know you might be joking in the twitch chat gg gg and x um so this may not be you and i don't think is i think you were joking but some people when it comes to philosophy they go nope those philosophers even like and i'm like i'm like well they're not philosophers that disagree with they agree with your position like they're let's say they're atheists i'm like they're atheist philosophers who are like peer reviewed published philosophers and they're like no that's dumb that's like no i i prefer my youtube atheists or it might be youtube christians or whatever it is and i'm like don't get me wrong it's not wrong it's not like it's immoral to like listen to anybody on youtube that i can think of it in terms of this context um but i would encourage like i'm not downing that i think it's you can learn a lot and i still learn a lot of this channel but i i would say it is a little bit scary to me that some people are like i purposely reject peer reviewed like philosophers when it comes to philosophy they just think that like anybody's opinion is just as good as anybody else's and i'm like i mean hey uh that's just not true it's just not whether it be atheists or christians whoever it is like the arguments get better and stronger the further up you go in terms of like the peer reviewed level let's say or so i'm just amazed though that some people do that there's like this purposeful disconnect between themselves and the scholarly world where they're like nope i want to rely on youtube and it's like it's fine to watch youtube but i highly recommend you also have additional but thanks mr p says after monning for two years it's nice to see refreshing faces at modern day debate james brings us more brian and anas and definitely more please bring more of erica as well i will totally do that i we always enjoy those annoying vegans as they like to be called and uh we do we do appreciate brian and ana and then as well as erica yeah i got nothing against her and she's all right but yeah no i i we do love erica like she's awesome she's like my little sister my little buddy she's just funny but let's see kimomaki thanks for being here as well as daryl frost said let mods friendly debate yeah you know we i've already thought about it but i appreciate that idea mctoon my boy as he likes to be called mctoon actually it's empty tune that he likes to be called thanks for making it we are glad you are here michael my boy i don't know if you guys know this but mctoon he lives down in like the miami area and so when it's stinking hot when he is not doing his youtube stuff uh mctoon is usually walking around in this speedo i don't know if you guys see like in miami that's just his default he just gets out of bed he's already wearing a speedo and so that's you know if he has to leave the house he might put something on but um maybe like a hat with his speedo but tapatsul says i haven't heard anything about the podcast all stream you're right i haven't done a good job of mentioning that folks if you didn't know moderna debate does have a podcast and we are thrilled about that so my dear friends if you have not checked it out yet i encourage you pull out your phone folks as no joke moderna modern day debate is on podcast and i think that you guys would love it for real we do appreciate it as a lot of people have given us ratings which we appreciate so i encourage you open up your favorite podcast app like i have done right now don't make me do it on my own here and you know pull it out like nobody knows nobody's watching basically you could find moderna debate which i just clicked on and every single moderna debate since last june we have uploaded and we're a little bit behind so sometimes we get a little behind we have a lot of debates so for example like yeah we're it's probably about a week behind right now in terms of like these debates that you see today will probably be uploaded onto the podcast in a week and so want to check you i want you to check those out but let's see reservoir of gore i agree it's cool to we want to greet people i've been encouraged that some people have said modern day debate feels like a community to them and i really feel encouraged by that as we really do want people to feel like hey this is awesome and then topazel says oh yeah but yeah thanks for reminding me that of the podcast topazel hannah anderson says james how close are we to 47 thousand subs we're close but here's what's weird this is bizarre to me on the main page for our channel it says we're at 46 900 right that's what you guys are all seeing for me in the creator studio this is weird but it does this once in a while i think it's usually that it needs to update it shows 46 744 which is weird because just yesterday i could have sworn i opened it and it was at 46 800 you know in between the middle so i'm baffled i think what it is is that youtube sometimes they will like take away subscribers and i think that they're like checking to see if they're bots or something i don't exactly know but i think like i noticed that sometimes in my stats the subscriber count will go down by like 50 or 100 and i'm like uh what the heck happened like did i upset somebody did somebody trash us on twitter you know like some big name person and then i i look a day later they're back and usually extra so i'm baffled by that but we do want to encourage you folks do hit that subscribe button as we are excited about the future and you won't regret it and mc tune you know it says how's how's you're here perfect after 10 hours i wish man it's greasy right now that's funny and then fox vlogs that i really appreciate you bringing on dr jeffrey meldron i agree he is awesome i i love him and erica loves him too he's a great guy and maddy loved him he's phenomenal we really do appreciate him and it's fun to listen to him i mean no matter what you think about bigfoot the master says says james i love you thank you master the master i love you as well thank you and then darth revan says have a good day stay well and say thank you darth revan seriously that means a lot you too and seriously thanks for reaching out to that person i do appreciate it and then daryl frost says james was clean shaved when he started that's funny uh that is really funny not quite i haven't shaved for like a week and so yeah this is where usually it's like it's it's fluffiest fox vlogs thanks for your kind words and how do you go for 12 or straight that is dedication much respect man i love doing this seriously i enjoy it so much so i'm happy to do it so thanks for saying that it's just fun for me like this is a way that i get to have fun my life is pretty boring otherwise i pretty much tomorrow and i kind of like it but tomorrow up until our stream all day i will be just doing reading and writing um but i like that too i really do i know that might be sound bored but i actually enjoy it and then mr p said i don't know hannah but james is taking a blood oath to return to the debate hot seat once he reaches 50 000 if he doesn't we'll be adding his amaze balls as discount patreon perks what does that even mean but that's funny um i might it's honestly it's probably gonna be a while before i do more debates have you guys not seen well linguist he says i'm waiting for your debate against tjump i've had two little friendly debates with tjump i've even done an interview or two with pine creek and then he's been here on modern day debate i get along with dog like i i like dog i'm thankful for him and uh because he actually one time he showed me how to i think he showed me how to do like obs stuff a long time ago it was something like that i remember us picking his brain and i appreciated that he took the time and then oh we're buffering that's weird i don't know why because my connection should be okay thanks for your kind words i show nav says matt most excellent today enjoyed it greatly thank you and then amanda said you should grow a full beard and somehow turn that into a crowdfunding event oh that's true that would be cool i'm surprised we're buffering this is weird oh you know why i don't know if you guys are able to hear but if you guys are watching it's because youtube at the 12 hour mark youtube usually like starts converting the video into an upload so what's gonna probably happen is i think i've heard that at 12 hours in youtube uh stops the live stream and it just turns into an upload and they start a new one where you're live streaming there that's what i've heard i've never done this before so we'll see by everyone mark read says i'm still here for another 20 minutes or so mark read says by everyone thanks moderate debate thanks to the debaters and thanks to all the mods for their hard work and dedication i agree we do appreciate you mods so much thank you for your help and yeah we might um we might buffer eventually because the stream like i said i don't know if twitch is the same but i know that basically youtube youtube basically what's the word i'm looking for youtube um i think they cut off at 12 hours so g gen X says it's not a disconnect quite the opposite um gg um g g gen X i'm sorry but that that really is the way i mean maybe for you it's different but i can tell you for a lot of people for them they've done nothing like and don't get me wrong it's cool to watch youtube it's okay i'm not shaming that but they've done like nothing other than like the youtube stuff or you know maybe they read like popular level books and they haven't read peer reviewed stuff and they're like oh and peer reviewed stuff like it's just silly and so g gen X like what peer reviewed philosophers have you read like what are your favorite atheist philosophers that are peer reviewed that you've read the papers of like um and so the this is the kind of stuff that i gotta be honest i just can't take it seriously and not because they're an atheist like i i respect people who are atheist but when they say things like this or they say um so in terms of me saying hey it's a great idea to check out the peer reviewed literature they say this i think people don't want to think for themselves and figure out how the how the world functions and you you think you're gonna get a better picture of that through youtube than peer reviewed scholarly literature like like or more importantly you you seem to think that you don't need like that you'd be better off with youtube than scholarly literature and so they go they go so so they look for easy solutions people who give them away give them a way out well wait a minute how is it an easy solution to read peer reviewed literature compared to watching youtube peer reviewed literature reading that is way harder than youtube so it sounds like you're doing the easy solution like you refuse to jump into the peer reviewed literature and you're just accusing others of like you're taking the easy way out and it's like wait what you're the person that's like basically downing the peer reviewed literature because you want to learn about philosophy through youtube only um then they say this is the the funniest thing um people who give them a way out because it's easier to believe in a flying wizard that that face i think they meant then face reality um so i mean is this seriously like i can't tell if you're being like you're trying to be like an ironic type of atheist or you're being serious but um so basically i'm telling them to read the peer reviewed literature of atheists and christians and you say people give them a way out because it's easier to believe in a flying wizard than face reality i'm like what what are you talking about i'm talking about the peer reviewed literature you're not engaging with what i'm saying honestly are you trying to be a parody of an atheist like for real but and don't get me wrong i'm not saying that atheists aren't clever like some of my kindest friends have been atheists and some of my most intelligent friends have been atheists like i'm not i don't have anything against atheists but when people say things like that i'm like all i'm doing is encouraging you to read peer reviewed literature by atheists i'm like by a it's a valuable to read peer review by atheists and you're still kind of pushing back and like saying stuff about magic sky daddies and stuff and like what are like are you a parody you gotta be a parody i'm i'm not following for this anymore i'm i just don't take it serious they that's funny though um when guisty said do you play computer games ever i once in a while will play old nintendo 64 games i and i figured i kept this out because i figured i might start playing during the stream if we if i ran out of things to talk about but so far we've had a lot of lots to talk about and silver harlow thanks for your super chat said when nathan didn't understand quote unquote spacetime isn't a kind of vacuum and quote unquote vacuum cleaner is another example of compound words changing the type of thing my next examples were quote space heater and dumb ass but that's mean of me well no worries i i honestly i i don't think i don't think nathan was trying really hard to understand what you were saying there and that um so no worries at all we appreciate you asking the question silver and i i think nathan said something like i can't remember what they said but yeah don't take anything personal from nathan sometimes he's cranky and a name said james what is debate juice oh we've got a lot of debate debate juice yet as we've got a lot of upcoming juicy debates and so thank you guys thank you silver said who said i said that mostly to give james more money as support for his work here thank you silver for your support seriously that means more than you know i really do appreciate it and so sedanie thanks for being here and i'm like i said i'm not trying in that little rant that i just gave i'm not trying to put down um i'm not trying to put down um atheists at all and likewise i mean there are critiques i could give to christians where i think that you know if a christian said the same thing i would i would give the same response so i'm i'm not trying to be harder on any group here um i'm just saying within little subgroups there are sometimes people that i'm like like are you being serious um and manik pandas thanks for coming by says respect james thank you manik pandas i appreciate that and yeah i think that magic sky daddy stuff is like people use it in as a humor thing now like they use it in an ironic way so that's why i was thinking this person's trolling me i'm not even gonna i'm not engaging with it anymore because they they're just trying to troll me but patelli like it is thank you for for being here says i love the debates you host i think keeping the platform neutral and holding your moderators to the standard of not engaging in debates is in the chat is great professionalism is a lost art in the online debate scene thank you for your kind words seriously that means a lot patelli like it is that i really do appreciate your support of the channel that is super encouraging and then yeah i get it gg gg and x was trolling me that was pretty good you got me uh let's see mc toon says find an anti 5g person i'll debate them i'm open to it um i don't know who's anti 5g but if you want to debate it i mean we can see who we can find and i'm not bringing i i don't know we'll see and then a name says what a great dodge everyone knows to bait juice is people i didn't know that to bait juice and let's see mc toon mc toon as he likes to be called we're glad you're here but yeah like i said i told you guys i one time i met mc toon and i was like it was at the airport and again he i don't know if they i guess they don't have rules at the airport you can wear anything i mean i've seen people wearing weird stuff at the airport mc toon because he was in miami he's like he was in his speedo and i was like uh are you serious and he's like hey it's hot here it's miami and i was like uh but it's air conditioning inside it's kind of cold in here and he's like it's miami and i was like okay i made that up i'm not trying i okay i made that up you i've never seen mc toon in a speedo i just loved teasing this guy mc toon's one of my favorite guys seriously he's just he's funny i appreciate him and so we are excited about the future though you guys i want to share with you some of the upcoming debates before the stream potentially gets cut off because like i said i think youtube actually cuts it off we've got about 13 minutes and then we'll be at the 12 hour mark it's almost like the countdown uh for the mc toon says a mesh speedo that is funny nasty guy he's always like talking about that kind of stuff sedanie says appreciate you man love how neutral you are in these discussions god bless you thank you for your kind words sedanie seriously that means more than you know i really do appreciate it and then mr peace is remember to press the like button don't smash it modern day debate doesn't have insurance that's true be easy on that like button just a gentle tap you know like what is it one of the people says gently caress it if you would caress that like button we do appreciate that is that motivates me i'm telling you guys that positive engagement and people who are positive and excited about what we're doing like that motivates me like that makes me like hey like this is cool and then yeah i gotta tell you i am so pumped so thank you guys as it's pumped to see we're at 436 you guys we can get to 440 i know we can we can totally get to 440 uh we're only four likes away from it and i am pumped as our guests are linked in the description nathan i guess doesn't have i got something in my nose that's embarrassing i guess nathan doesn't have a link i don't know how you're gonna find him because i don't have a youtube link for him um and he didn't actually insist on me putting any link he didn't even give me one so i don't know what to put if you want to find nathan ask mc tune if you want to talk to nathan he is uh their best buddies that mc tune and nathan usually hang out often in mesh speedos together and so if you wanted to talk to nathan talk to him but and then my nose is so itchy man raw nakedness aka stupid whore energy aka human girl has apparently like 500 accounts because now she's saying that she was the g gen X person who is trolling me in the other chat and uh let's see nasty nasty woman such a nasty woman but nasty guy mc tune yeah he he's always like he's just that's what he does in miami that's like what they do he told me that i i don't know a lot about miami but he's like yeah man let me tell you about upcoming debates though stripper liquor is right lick that like button lick it good you won't regret it and 444 the truth thanks for coming by we're glad you're here as well as andrew crowl good to see you again and so thank you guys i am so excited though you guys i'm honestly so pumped with how fun this debate this whole stream went and thank you guys so much for all of your likes and sharing is cool too that helps the channel we do appreciate that so feel free to always share our content especially as some of our content mod youtube i think doesn't recommend it necessarily because sometimes our content is controversial and all that and so just letting you know that it helps if you do share our content as we are trying to get the word out about modern a debate and i'm excited though you guys i it's hard for me to to say just how pumped up i am human girls being a beta again i have to warn you guys and then stripper liquor says where'd you go lick the like button please do let me tell you about some of the upcoming debates you soy boys and soy girls so upcoming debates one tomorrow i haven't even announced it yet because we just got it confirmed randolph will be debating cj the synagogue synageek you don't want to miss it it's going to be a good one on whether or not god exists so a classic topic that we enjoy that's going to be cool randolph is the president of canadian atheist really pleasant fellow i really do enjoy randolph i owe randolph randolph has been really good to us then monday i've got to talk to steve mccray we're hoping to have a discussion with steve mccray and maybe it was originally it was going to be a panel but yes um stupid whore energies dad steve mccray will probably be here that'll be epic tuesday we're hoping to have a debate on whether or not noah's ark could have worked could have gotten the job done with kent hovind and uh mark read that's the hope wednesday have you guys heard about this i don't know if you guys know about this jf is supposed to debate lance from surfs tv that is going to be a big one on wednesday so we're excited about that one we might do a late night debate on thursday the third but that's in addition to the debate that converse is supposed to hold uh so that's going to be a busy night that night we might have two debates that night and then maybe a debate with erica on the flood but i'm come i'm confirming her opponent you could say so that's still up in the air and holy smokes are you serious and haxt said indy gogo was at 95 percent are you serious because we were at 92 percent the last time i checked that was a funny tasteless joke man oh that's a funny uh let's see you got it's still at 92 but nonetheless still cool and then human girl says stripper liquor james is being super cheeky fake news and mr piece of steve is tom's dad james you're forgetting your own lore you're right that's right i forgot about that reservoir of gores right the spider eggs in my nose have hatched as i've been itching my nose like crazy and then yes friday so we're hoping to have a debate with friday uh erica and on the topic of the flood but that's not confirmed yet i've still got to ask erica about that date then saturday june 5th so one week from today matt delahunty and dr kenny rhodes who you were seeing right here right there see they are going to debate it's going to be epic you don't want to miss it folks believe me i'm telling you i'm gonna change this a little bit less light it's getting close to my bedtime so i don't want to be up too late uh or i don't want to have too much light in my face but let me show you this other one so i think i have shown you this uh on screen which is cool but let me show you this debate so it's going to be epic dr michael brown christian apologist and apostate prophet who is an atheist will be debating whether or not there's a god that's going to be on june 9th so that's going to be epic and then brian steven's good to see you says who is kent hovind you know you're on