 We have two members of the Critical Minerals Institute Board. We have Melissa Mel Sanderson and of course Russell Friar joining us today. Thank you both for participating. Thank you very much for having us. Yeah, it's always a pleasure to talk about the Congo. And so today, today we're going to discuss the Congo because we've seen a lot of headlines around the world about what's going on in the Congo. Countries, I received a phone call from Denver from a CMI director saying that he had been contacted by the US government about an acquisition that the Americans were concerned that China was making in the Congo. So we do know that the Congo is a place where everybody involved in critical minerals around the world is looking at for a wide range of reasons. So the reason we selected the two of you to be in this masterclass is I often get people calling me about the Congo who have never been there. Now I have never been there and when I need to know something about the Congo, I call you two because you both have been there. And I wish more people in the resource industry or the investment industry when they're making decisions about investing in something would pull up their sleeves and actually start by looking on a map where it is, how to get there and actually read a little bit about it. So how did you both, I'm going to start with Melissa, if you don't mind Russell, ask her first. If you could both take three to five minutes to explain how the heck you ended up in the Congo because you both have real experience, I've never ended up in the Congo, tells me how you got there and then we'll start the discussion on critical minerals. Thank you. Thanks, Tracy. Well, I actually wound up in the Congo as a result of being in the US diplomatic service because I was assigned to go to Kinshasa in 2003 right after the end of what was called Africa's World War and the country and the world was picking up the pieces and trying to basically do some nation building in the Congo. So it was official US government duty assignment that brought me to the Congo initially. And I have to say after the first two hours in which I hated the country, I then fell in love with it. It's a very complex place, lots of layers, lots of such refuge, but with some diligence and considerable effort, you can penetrate it, which I did successfully. I had the privilege of traveling all over the country, sometimes in rickety paroques and sometimes on dubious aircraft, but it was really enlightening to get to the farthest corners of the place and I met everyone high and low and everything in between. We meet some really scary folks out in the bush in the Congo, there's rustle nose too. So I met the authorities and the actual ones with power. And then in 2006, I wasn't ready to leave the Congo. My assignment was telling me I had to go and I didn't want to leave. That's how much I fell in love with it. I had been inducted into families there. I have enduring relationships. So along came Phelps Dodge, which was a huge copper company in the United States, trying to build mine in the Congo and had been talking to all the wrong people that came into the embassy. I was able to help put them straight. And as my ambassador and I were flying down to the Mombashi, the capital of the then Katanga province, the big copper producing area, my ambassador said to me, they're going to offer you a job. And I said, oh, no, they're not. The private sector does not hire political officers. They hear political officer and they think CIA. Well, this is why he was the ambassador and I wasn't because right after the signing, the then CEO of Phelps Dodge pitched me the offer to leave the government and join the private sector. And I did that. And I have never regretted that I did that. Phelps Dodge was acquired about six months later by any large, even larger company, Freeport Mac Grant. And we built the Tengifunga Rumay Copper Cobalt project. So that was how I got to the Congo and also how I got into mining sector. Hey, Russell, your turn. In 2006, I was my background is engineering. I was hired by a three and a half billion dollar hedge fund to run their metals and mining book. And we had a global mandate frontier markets, emerging markets. And to some of the investors on this call that have been invested in Canadian stocks for 15 or 20 years, we were about the fourth largest shareholder of a Canadian listed company called Katanga, Katanga Mining, Ark Ditto and Bob Buckham, two very well known Toronto based executives were the directors there. And there was a company that Mel just mentioned, Tengie, that was also listed, was purchased. And I think Paul, a gentleman named Paul, I'll get a surname here a bit later, Condor, I think is a surname, was also the CEO of that. What happened is, is we had about $110 million invested in the Congo between Katanga, Nicanor, Kamek, First Quantum, another Canadian listed company. And so I would go to the Congo in 2006 onward about three times a year just to look after our investments. In 2010, we actually exited licking our wounds because, you know, from about 2001 to 2010, it was, it was the Wild West in my, in my belief. There were Middle Eastern people doing nefarious deals. There were meetings that are happening behind the scenes where M&A deals got done. There was just really the Wild West during that Kabila Junior time frame. We exited the Congo in 2010, actually with millions of dollars of losses and lessons learned and looked to re-enter, we again, about 2015, 2016 and planted in a flag in 2018 back in the Congo. And we managed to put the Malulu mine into production. And we announced last week that we were buying a copper cobalt, cobalt hydroxide plant to process our ore instead of building from scratch. So this is my eighth trip down to the Congo this year. It's one of those unique and complex jurisdictions where you have to be on top of everything. You can't be an executive and just live outside of the country. You actually have to spend a lot of time in the country. And that's what we do for now. So let me, let me swing right back at you, Russell, then with government. You know, a lot of people are concerned when they make investments in the Congo that there's going to be an issue that will compromise their investment dollar. What advice would you give to investors about investing in companies like yours, for instance, where your assets are all in Congo? So there's two answers. The first answer is in any country, whether it's developed or developing, there are issues with government regulations. And I could point to Resolute in Arizona or Twin Metals in Minnesota. What we didn't do until recently was actually engage in the higher echelons of the government. We've we've engaged locally, particularly with the chiefs and then with the regional ministers and such. And only just recently now have we gone now to Kinshasa and said, OK, here's what we're doing. Here's what we've done over the last year and we'd like your support. And it seems backwards, you know, my advice to someone coming into the Congo would be start at the top government level and work your way down. But we did it. We've been a little bit differently. We've been successful on it so far. It has been an interesting lesson in life in terms of how to deal with the chief of a village and how to deal with a chief of a region. You know, they don't teach you that in MBA school or CFA school is really learning life, learning lessons on the fly. And so, you know, I've met with the ambassador, the UK ambassador, DRC today, and I'll be meeting with the ambassador again next week and also the US ambassador in Kinshasa and given him an update and a file on all the all the activities that we've done over the last year. So I'm absolutely certain that Melissa would like to add something to that. Melissa, what's your perspective on dealing with government relations, your private business, you know, or a public company, you're coming into the Congo. How would you recommend that the company proceeds? 100% along the lines of what Russell actually used, this is on the ground level, because relationships are 100% of everything in Congo and actually throughout Africa. And frankly, the right relationships are your best protection against corruption, because we might as well use the C word, it's real. There is corruption. And again, I agree with Russell, there's corruption everywhere if you want to look for it. Unfortunately, in a DRC, you don't have to look for it, it's going to come back in on your door. And so number one protection, build those relationships. Cultural sensitivity is paramount. One of the things that I used to find incredibly offensive on behalf of my Congolese friends, the number of people who don't even speak French, French being the official unifying language of the Congo, I would not say run out and learn Swahili and run out and learn Lingala. That's nice if you can do it over time. But at least yourself or your prime representative, please speak French, show some cultural sensitivity. It's going to make those relationships firmer and more enduring if you come with that attitude of I respect your place and your culture. The other thing to be aware of is the Foreign Prep Practices Act is real, particularly for American companies. And it's one of the biggest concerns for investors and for CEOs of companies looking to go into the Congo because there's a fixed perception out there that FCPA concerns will kill you in the Congo. That's not necessarily true. There's many lawyers making gainful livings by interpreting the FCPA. For instance, the FCPA does permit things called facilitation payments. As long as those facilitation payments are on a published schedule by the government of the Congo. So you can legitimately pay that fee for expediting your visa. It's not corruption. But you have to have that detailed level of knowledge. So I would also say in addition to culture respect, make sure you hire the right lawyer. And I am absolutely certain that Russell, you would like to add something to that beyond I would like you to send me my facilitation fee. We're letting you throw us this today. It's funny Mella mentions that because I just bought a Rosetta Stone French 101 language program because I'm actually trying to learn French for that very reason. And a lot of our workers do speak Swahili. And, you know, I won't learn Swahili, but I will learn the French. And it's true that in fact, the Foreign Crop Practices Act was brought up today in the in the meetings with the minister and the ambassador and such. One of the advantages I think Western companies have is when someone knocks on your door, rightfully, as Mel said, and asks for some type of monetary exchange. What our standard practices is we can do it one time and we're going to have to put it in our results. And it's going to be out there for everybody to see. And once they see it, we'll be shut down. So all the jobs will be on the school be shut down. You'll be you'll get one payment and then it'll end. Right. Is that what you really want to see? And so we've we've taken a pretty hard line. They get creative. We have one of the chiefs come and said his vehicle needs tires, you know, we have to decline that. But yes, we're becoming more and more aware of the creative avenues and the creative asks of of the people in the DRC and in other African countries. But, you know, we're talking about the DRC today. And so that's those are real world situations that have happened to me. The tires and some of the other issues, you know, piage, you know, that which is a toll, but it's not really a toll, you know. So yeah, we were very aware of and and we have we use Leader Kirk as our attorneys and Hill Dickinson as our attorneys who have been able to keep us out of trouble so far. Can you comment and share with everybody here where you were earlier today? Or is that private information? So I received an invitation from the House of Lords, Lord Popple. And what Popple interesting enough was is an Indian from Uganda and when Idi Amin took over the family fled and somehow worked his way through the UK government to become obviously a Lord and is the representative now working alongside we're working under Rishi Sunak to facilitate and grow the UK DRC relations and also to the the UK and Rwandan relations. And so there's a renewed. I think what's happened is as the UK has looked at the US and said the US seems to be streets ahead of everybody else in terms of allocating capital for, you know, critical metals, strategic metals and such this week, if it hasn't been announced today, it'll be announced tomorrow that the DRC is going to sign with the EU on a protocol on critical metals. And so I think the the UK and the House of Lords in particular has now realized, hey, we need to figure out the recipe for success on this relationship. The there's an automobile industry here that obviously needs batteries or rechargeable batteries and such. And so obviously the Coltan, the cobalt and such, they want for that industry. I think it goes much deeper than that because, you know, really without with China controlling 70 percent of the world's cobalt and without that, you don't have an airspace, you don't have satellites, you don't have aircrafts, rockets and etc. So I think that they're starting to get a bit scared. And so I was called. I was one of probably 10 people called into the House of Lords today. To speak to the Lord and to meet with the DRC ministers to figure out how to foster a greater relationship between the UK and the DRC. I want to get into a number of geopolitical directed questions. Of course, let me warn everybody who's here today. We are going to open the floor for Q and A's here momentarily. Mel, what in addition to speaking French and cultural sensitivities what would you say is the number one lesson you would like to give businesses investing in the Congo as something you wish you had learned? As Russell pointed out, you can't get your MBA on how to do business and critical minerals in the Congo. What would be your number one lesson, Professor Sanderson? You know, Congo is a lot like remodeling your home. You should come prepared and expect that it's going to take twice as long and cost three times as much as you thought it would to actually successfully build your mind. And you're going to have to be involved in aspects that in many other countries would not even be a concern. Your power source, your water source, a trained labor force. Once you get outside of the Katanga province in the Congo, the reliability of the energy grid is highly variable. There's always plenty of water in the Congo, but is it going to be clean enough to be useful to you? You might have to get into that aspect. Transportation remains problematic in many parts of the Congo. Again, the former Katanga province, which now was renamed a few years ago, broken into three provinces. But for the sake of simplicity, let's call it Katanga. The Katanga province has benefited over decades. From concerted efforts by the private sector as well as the government Congo to improve the infrastructure. And those efforts continue with improved rail access out through Angola, with improved highway access out through Zambia. A lot of projects underway that are going to materially assist the copper cobalt group of that area. But when you start to talk about the rare earths, those are located throughout the Congo. They're located in dangerous and problematic places like Boonia. And you're going to have to take security into consideration. So I would say that definitely expected to take at least twice as long and cost at least three times as much. So be patient and be ready for the fight. Russell, do you agree with Mel? Or is there something you'd like to reinforce or redirect? Absolutely agree with Mel. We took a slightly different stance. And one of the things that we learned in the Congo years ago was, you know, they want to eat, they want to eat today and tonight. And so one of the the ideas that we focused on is how quickly can cash flow being generated because not only to feed the workers and obviously make profits, but also to feed the region, right? So the chiefs and the schools and such. So instead of doing it a traditional way and, you know, start with a scope and study and a pre-fees and a fees and a banking and such, we tried to do a quick route into production where we could start to be impactful almost immediately. When I say immediately, within 12 months or less. And I agree with Mel. You know, you need security. We do have security, but you need it even with your Phoenix products. You know, your Cobalt hydroxide or your copper cathode. You know, you need security on those trucks because they'll get hijacked and it's not only just hijacking in the Congo, it's in Zambia, it's in Bobway, it's South Africa and such. One of the things that I would recommend and you've seen with Longcore, for example, listed in Tantalx, listed in Canada, very successful companies. And I think that Congolese people are now realizing that they want the Western capital to come in. And what I would do differently is I would go if I was Longcore, if I was someone wanted to be in the gold industry, I'd go to Longcore and I'd say, you know, you're obviously on the ground. You hear a lot. You have a plate that's full already. What do you see out there that is of an interest? Right. What is interesting to you that we can maybe invest in? Same with the copper, you know, same with the Cobalt. I would use the success of companies that have already entered into Canada or entered into the DRC that are listed in Canada as a pathway to success into the Congo. For example, we use Robert Friedland and particularly Ivan Ho and Mark Bristo and Barrick as examples of what can really be done honestly above board on a recipe for success. And we're trying to follow their pathway. So I agree with what Mel said. And I think that the DRC is now becoming extremely topical globally. And I think that you're going to start to see more interest from Canada and maybe the US certainly from the Middle East. Everybody's now trying to figure out how to enter the DRC. And I think just following those few steps, you know, it'll be a successful entry for for some companies. So let's have some fun now. Russell, what are you seeing with, for instance, in geopolitical or investments from, say, the Middle East, China, the US in the Congo? Who would you say is leading that race right now? Well, you said something interesting that perked my ears up. So probably the number two cobalt producer, it's a private company in the DRC is up for sale. I had a meeting with the reporter just now saying that she had heard that the Saudis with the US government is interested in purchasing this. And I threw cold water on it. But what I'm seeing is a lot of interest from Saudi Arabia, UAE and the Qataris. And I don't know why they would need the US or anybody else to come in. Canada, US, I don't know why, because they have plenty of petro dollars. But we're seeing now the Qataris vested 1.9 billion in January in the DRC. The Saudis, there's supposed to be a delegation down there of 30 people this week. So we're seeing a lot of interest in the Middle East. The belief is that they're going to set up refining capacity there in Saudi Arabia and in Qatar. So it's not going to be pumped off to North America. It's not going to be pumped off to to Europe. And so the Russians have always been there. You know, Wagner has been there. You know, the Israelis have been there. They're still there. But it's the Middle East is now is the new players. And I just mentioned those three countries. And if this company that I'm referring to gets bought by the Middle East, it'll create waves in the market, big waves. Yeah, I don't think it's so much that directly that the Saudis needed the US, although there's one aspect of that, which is that across a 50 year span of time, starting with the Mabuchan government going on to Mosaic, Kabila, Joseph Kabila and now Tishikete. The Saudis have not had enduring success. In the Congo, they've tried several times to come in. They've been bitten by duplicitous Congolese and they've left again. So there's frequently a perception that the US has more influence in the Congo than it does. And the perception is fed by the Congolese who wish it were true. So I do see that the Saudis would see an advantage. But frankly, I think that that particular connection was part of a whole other dynamic in the other part of the world, where the US was trying to facilitate Saudi recognizing Israel's nationhood. And I think one of the things that Washington might have been working on was securing an offtake agreement from the DRC with the Saudis and helping them get in that country as part of that bigger picture. Pure speculation, but it's what I believe to be the case. I would say that the other thing to keep in mind is that just as the Chinese have never been popular in Congo, because they've been there for a hundred years, raping and pillaging, and then Russell touched briefly on this earlier, certain elements from the Middle East have also been there for a very long time, specifically the Lebanese. They've been down in a diamond belt, literally swapping used blue jeans for industrial diamonds for a good 75, if not 100 years. And they've built up a lot of resentment as well as a lot of power. And there's another reason why the US might like to see the Saudis come in and balance the equation in Congo, because there's long been concerns about where that Lebanese money is going, a.k.a. straight to Hezbollah. So there are some deep geopolitical waters that the Congo is is beginning to be involved in. And I would just close by saying the last time that happened, the Congo got screwed. So what advice, Russell, would you give to your friends and peers that are running the Congolese government right now in dealing with these geopolitical relations? Would you recommend they bring in some mastermind political scientist out of the United States? UK former SA agents, what would you recommend the Congo do? Because we all recognize the fact that Congo is one of the richest locations in the world for many of these critical minerals that are being sought after. So I would bring in someone who understands the financial. Balance sheets of governments. And the reason why I say that is because I see a lot of I'm going to say it. Chinese companies not paying VAT, which is 16 percent. And there's no logical reason why they get an exemption, but a Western company like ours must pay VAT. And I think there's a lot of leakage in terms of just general commerce. And if you could start working on that, making sure if you're an industry that you're paying your fair share of the taxes, that'd be one way to increase domestic revenues and help internally. I think that there's a perception that, you know, somebody from overseas is smarter and better. And I don't necessarily believe that they need to take I need to bring in a consultant and such and say, look, this is what you got to do politically. I think they're doing very well politically, trying to figure out the relationship with Zambia and Rwanda and Tanzania and so on in the region. And the labor to a corridor was an example of how Angola and the DRC are learning to work together. So I think politically, it's all starting to come together. But I think financially, which is what everybody worries about, I think there's a lot of holes that can be filled just by understanding how other tax-efficient in terms of collecting countries operate. We have been approached to break the law and I said, no, we're not going to do it. And because obviously we have to file, but I wouldn't do it anyway. And it seems to be, I wouldn't say a game, but it's fairly common knowledge that people are evading taxes. And I think if you could just start from there, you'd see a big difference in what the the fiscous and the balance sheet looks like of the country. I can't even wait to hear where you're going to go with this, Mel. Well, I would just say that I'm sure Russell remembers, as well as I do, Prime Minister Matata. And there's a good example of brilliant Congolese, you know, had worked with the U.N., had worked with the World Bank, understood not just national balance sheets, but international finance at a very high level. And when he was brought into office, a lot of us, including myself, had terrific expectations. There was a real rush of optimism that at last someone, a Congolese, someone had been appointed to a genuinely powerful position where he could make a difference. Didn't take long for Matata to fall from power because he set out to tackle exactly the issues that Russell just mentioned. To bring equity and transparency to the financial accounting of the Congo. And unfortunately, even though Matata has presented himself as a presidential candidate in the last elections, I'm told that he's not going to try again this time. It's spiritually and financially destructive to run for presidency in the Congo. And at the time, again, realize that you'll never win. All of that said, it would take an extraordinarily special outsider to be able to make any meaningful difference in the Congo. It would be relatively easy to provide geostrategic guidance on that big kind of level that we were just talking about. But the real reason that the Congo never fulfills its potential is because of its internal complexities. And the jealousies and decades-long animosities and the enduring tribalism. And it would, I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but it would take an extraordinarily knowledgeable and competent consultant to come in and be able to provide advice, not just about Congo's external relations, but how it could genuinely move forward the country from its internal relations. But, you know, Tracy, just to add, you know, I don't want the listeners to think that we're painting a negative picture on the Congo. Yes, it's complex and unique. But if you look at the profitability and the ability to generate phenomenal amounts to free cash flow from Ivanhoe, from Kabali in Barrick, it is truly a magical place to invest. Sometimes with the fruits and those harvests, you know, we have these little road bumps. But as long as we're committed to making sure that we do things correctly, it's a fantastic place to invest. And you can get things done quicker, three times quicker than you could. I could in the U.S., for example. So that's not fair to use the U.S. as an example. I was going to say North America destroyed our mining industry with our stupid terminating system. Well, I think everybody here, Russell, is quite clear that the Congo is an exceptional place, very high risk, but high value place to invest. There's nobody here that's here today that is questioning that. And on that note, I'd like to open the floor to any questions. If anyone would like to ask either Russell or Mel, obvious questions like who's your law firm, who do you hire for security? Mel, can you test my French to see if I can make it across first base? Is there anyone who would like to ask a question, please? Yeah, I would like to ask a question, Tracy. And directed either to Mel or Russell or both. Throughout the conversation, no mention has been made of Glencore and Blassenberg and his successor, Gary Nagle, who have been mining cobalt and sending it off predominantly to China, I believe, for many, many years. And they got fined for corruption and theft. And, you know, it wasn't a small fine. I think it's like one and a half billion dollars. And who does that go to? Does that go to the DRC? Or does it go into the pockets of the government mandarins? Or whatever they might be in at whatever level, I find in an extraordinarily interesting country is it so resource rich for many, many things. And yet it's it's got a history of corruption and stuff that you wouldn't want to go there. Safety of workers, any and all things. I think it's a terribly risky place to go. But those that were in first seem to have made enough money from it to be able to pay one point by billion dollars. So can you just bring me up to speed to tell me that the processing is not done in China? The, you know, you can you can ship the cobalt anywhere you want in the world, because I think they build a dedicated train line to the coast and off it goes, you know. So what's going to change that? Do you want to go negative? But I am negative. No, I'd rather you be negative. I prefer the negative comments. So I'll take this first. So I was actually involved pretty deep in that. Glencore, Ivan Glasberg, Dan Gertler. I was knee deep into this as an outsider looking in. And there's no doubt. But let's be clear. A lot of those mines are open pit. OK. So it's not all. You know, there's some the the Katanga mine that they now own is underground, very high rich, high grade rich. But that fine, I think one of them got paid to the U.S. government, SEC violations. Or is it not OFAC, it might have been the FCPA. In fact, I've got them on FCPA. Yeah. Yeah. So the SEC got a payment. I think the European government got a payment. The regulators and I'm not sure what payment was actually given to the the the DRC government. And maybe not. Yeah, I thought it was, you know, too. I thought it was that we know of. Yeah, none that we know of. Correct. And so there was a nefarious individual who I just mentioned who was involved with a lot of the deal the brokering of deals and such between Glencore and the government and previous president and such, who's been. Sidelined for the most part, he still has a small interest in a royalty basis on a couple of mines. But to answer your question about cobalt hydroxide, yes, cobalt hydroxide is leaving the country. And so is the copper cathode. They put a ban on exporting of copper ores was what the US government, the Canadian government wanted, but you can't export ores out of just about any African country. And, you know, Ivanhoe is making a copper concentrate right now while it's busy building and constructing its copper cathode plant. So they gave him a special dispensation. The rail line that you refer to is actually going out via Byra out of Vandola, which Glencore built. And traffic here is obviously involved with the Laboto corridor, which is going out to the one East West, sorry, the West part of Africa for the European and the North American markets. Getting getting material out is not an issue, not one bit. And Glencore makes phenomenal profits out of their DRC operations. They don't hire child labor. They don't buy or from child labor mines. They know they're being watched. So, you know, I speak very highly now of the clean Glencore and what Pagel's up to. You know, the Ivan, Glaserburg era, unfortunately, was a bit, let's say, opaque. I'll hand over to you. That's that's a wonderful diplomatic adjective. I'm going to be a lot less diplomatic than you, Russell. OK. There were lots of reasons, John, for Dan Gertler's power. And some of those reasons involve that big international geostrategic situation with the Lebanese and Hezbollah so active in the Congo. The U.S. was very, very interested in having Israel also present in the Congo and offered in less than offered ways. And sometimes the price tag for what you want can lead to things that you don't want. And Dan Gertler is a good example of that. When I was at the embassy, there was much discussion with Washington about Dan Gertler and whether his presence was a positive or not. So this is what I mean about in many ways, Congo has always been a pawn and big scheme of things. But you can't even I guess you can, but you won't last long in the United States. As a U.S. government, you cannot say don't ship your product to China when Freeport owned Tengki Fungarome, the cathode that we were the concentrate and cathode eventually that we were providing went almost exclusively to China. So when we start to talk about trying to ensure national security, the only way to do that would be, for instance, for the Pentagon to step up and say, no, actually, we went into a contract and we buy 100% of the output. So it gets really, really ugly and complicated really, really quickly. And just to add to that, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal either last week or the week before mentioning Dan Gertler and the U.S. government getting in bed together. And the way they have to do that, the article mentioned that the U.S. government was going to take sanctions off Dan Gertler to have Dan Gertler facilitate transactions in the Congo on behalf of the government. I got to hold the reporter and said, this can't happen. Yeah, I don't believe that either. It's out there. It's there in the state of Jordan. Yeah, but, you know, somebody will have to be a facilitator, just not Dan. Yeah. Do we answer your question? Pretty much, yes. Thanks, Russell. Yeah. OK, Brandon, jump in or I'm going to take back over. From Russell and Mal, thank you so much for everything here. We've got a question from CJ. CJ is a new graduate to I invited to hear, because he was really eager to hear more information, especially from the two of you and from yourself as well. His question is, since mining the DRC is such a complex web of interpersonal relationships with Congolese government officials and institutions, could you please share how you would suggest building those interpersonal relationships as well as highlight some specific institutions which can help facilitate those relationships and provide guidance on regulating regulations and development. I'll go first, Mel. So we we're in the process of developing a relationship with the University of Lumeboshi and one of the professors in particular, head of the department, because we are getting ready to sponsor one male, one female, mine engineer, one male, one female geologist and have them come and get on the ground experience. And through this professor, we're able to get through to some of the other key industrial people and government officials. They're in Lumeboshi. Again, we started from the ground and working our way up in terms of government officials and business people and such, when probably we should do it the opposite way. But we've gotten through the worst of it. And believe it or not, the University of Lumeboshi is phenomenal for putting out engineers and geologists and such because they've been mining in the Congo for 100 years, right? Same as in Bob White, many, many decades experience. And so as for someone, maybe yourself that wants to come in and be an apprentice or something, you know, you contact the companies direct from on the ground, looking outward, there's immense amounts of pools of talent. You know, we have 51 workers at our mind, of which two of them are South African and the rest are Congolese, right? So we don't have to bring in skilled labor because it's being homegrown. And there's no difficulty whatsoever of we've got one worker from Tinky, we've got one worker from Sumiko, we've got we've got workers of big name, one from Ivanhoe, big name companies that are now working for our little company. So there's no shortage of skills or labor. I don't know if that answered your question, but I'll hand over to Mel. Yeah, I would add that if an embassy is doing its job correctly, it is a source of introductions for private companies to government officials. It's certainly one of the things that I did a lot of when I was with the embassy was to hook up interested businesses with the appropriate ministers and their staffs. And also with the mining chamber, for instance, the nice thing about working through the embassies. And again, I stress if they're doing their jobs correctly because it's always a human variable. But normally embassies track a lot of the chitter chatter and a lot of the actual behavior and are in a position to provide the business some very solid information about the character of the person with whom they will be forced to deal. For instance, if that individual is to minister of minds and can suggest ways in which to finesse complicated situations. So I usually tell people that your national embassy should be your first stop. We don't still don't have a US Chamber of Commerce in the DRC. There's just not a critical mass. But, you know, there there is a mining chamber. And again, you can get introductions to that there. I would also, in addition to the University of Lubavashi, would say that the Polytechnic in Kinshasa is also a place that has produced a lot of people that have gone into government and also has produced a lot of the mining talent for for Congo. So it can also be a good place to start. I noticed that we have I'm looking right at his face on my screen right now. Prince Mamik with us from the Congo. And I'm just I'm curious to to hear from from you, sir, as a Congolese and an official, how you think our dialogue is going today? Well, first and foremost, thank you very much for inviting me to this beautiful, important conversation. I think what both of you, Mel and Russell have highlighted on this call is accurate 100 percent and it's necessary. And and I would like to actually ask some questions, giving your exposure in particularly the mining sector simply because we know that's the wealth of the DRC, specifically when we look at mining. There is also the other Congo where I was born, Brazzaville, where it's more oil based. But a question to you both, if I may, which I think will spark some interest around risk, when we look at the African Free Continental Trade Agreement and what that implies in terms of advancing free trade within the continent, how much do you believe that will play a role around risks when it comes to the processing of these minerals? Because I think that's the issue here is there's the extraction. But the processing and the manufacturing aspect is not something that we currently have in the DRC, which I think will be critical when we look at what Zambia and the DRC have signed in terms of the MOU for EV industry and so forth. Will the AFCTA play a critical role around the notion of risk in the Congo? Interesting. I would love to see that agreement be finalized. There's just some within some countries, there are some internal complexities that are keeping it from coming to closure. It's an interesting question as to whether that sort of a regional agreement can help to stabilize an individual country. I mean, if we look at sort of analogous organizational examples, you know, the West African Economic Group or the East African Economic Group, have those organizations actually had a political impact, which is what we're really talking about here, on the member states? And I would argue that history shows that they don't because one of the principles that underpins the African Union is that of not interfering with national sovereignty and that has been taken to it's been a complicating factor, even in instances where a nation is suffered and the African Union has been slow to intervene. So although I can see many advantages that would stem from the Pean African Free Trade Agreement, I do not think that it's been an improved climate politically in the Congo, but necessarily follow as one of those, unfortunately. I, Prince, it's funny, we looked at Republic, some copper mines in the Republic of Congo a couple of months ago, and I'm due to be in Brazzaville on Wednesday, just as a buy and buy. I'm going to take a different angle from what Mel's taken. I firmly believe that if you're going to mine in a country, it's incumbent on the company to beneficiate as far down the line, downstream as possible. One of the problems that we have in the Congo and in Africa, throughout Africa, is we lack consistency of power. Right. So if you think about the complexity of building a EV battery, you know, and the precision that's required, you can't sit there and be hooked up on a power supply and all of a sudden the power is cut for six or eight hours. Right. So until. African countries in general, including the DRC, sort out the issue about power. It's hard to get the technologically advanced high precision manufacturing companies to come in and do that. And you think about, you know, so the Congo's got lithium, it's got cobalt, it's got manganese. So in theory, it should be a place where you could build electric EV batteries and such chargeable batteries. But you can't because you don't have power. The other problem that we find out, particularly on the mine, is and I've been after Starling for ages is, you know, we need consistent communications and that helps communications also helps with with education. Right. You know, consistent Wi-Fi. They talk about fiber optics today with the ministers, you know, getting fiber optics put into the Congo so you can have consistency of communications. But, you know, we struggle sometimes at our mind to to have Wi-Fi in order to communicate to South Africa or communicate to London. So I think that we need to one, improve the power generation and the consistency. Number two, we have to really have a Starling type process. And then number three, which most African countries are doing now is just saying, look, we don't want to ship or to China anymore. No, beneficiation has to happen. So to get to that third step, you need the first and second. I don't know if that can. It definitely doesn't. And Tracy, I'll try to make my last question very short, if you if you would allow me. With regards to that aspect, Russell and Mel, thank you very much for that insight. Would you say then that the Inga Dam, which is I'm sure you've heard of the Inga Dam. I know Mel is laughing. She's laughing. Everybody knows Inga Dam. I've got 20 years plus experience on the Inga Dam, friends. Go ahead. So would you say, Mel and Russell, that perhaps an investment behind the Inga project in some shape or form can help, not only the investors from from accelerating that development long term, but also really facilitate the development of the the free trade agreement between the intercontinental, within the region, if we can help the Inga power all these projects that are waiting for such infrastructure to be put in place. Sir, the Inga Dam in phases two and three has been repeatedly proven to him to capacity to pretty much power the continent of Africa if all three of the project aspects were realized. Over the course of 20 plus years, there have been all kinds of coalitions which have come in to try to build Inga two and downstream Inga three. And those have ranged from the Chinese to the Saudis to South Africans, a coalition of Europeans. And for mostly political reasons, none of those project proposals have been successful. And when you think about it just geographically, you know, one of the reasons that power is unreliable, even in Katonga is the Inga Dam is sitting way over here on the western side of the country, the extreme edge near the ocean. And the copper producers are sitting on the extreme eastern edge of the country. When we were building Tanki, one of the expenses we had was we had to redo the electric transmission lines because they were literally overheating and blowing up. They had all been positioned in the wrong places. So I would argue just to throw a bomb in at the last minute that Inga isn't the answer at this time. A lot more interesting would be developing the geothermal capacity that Congo has, which is with dwarf Inga, if successfully developed. And great for the mining industry. The major source that you can tap in conveniently is an eastern Congo. So just to be complicated, forget about Inga for a while, build the geothermal. I'll even throw a bigger bomb, literally. So Chika Lobe is a uranium mine that supplied the uranium to the nuclear bombs in World War Two. And my belief is African countries should look at the the power generation units in a nuclear submarine or a nuclear aircraft carrier. And those can be built within a year and deployed strategically. You don't need a big nuclear power plant. But Congo and the region has uranium. They've got facilities in South Africa to turn it into usable uranium. You know, the French are in Niger. And I think what they should do is have these small modular nuclear power plants about every about every thousand kilometers to make sure that the regions are powered. And that could be done within a few years. It doesn't take decades. Oh, Russell, shall I tell you why that one can't work? Very, very quickly, because I know Tracy is eager to get to bring us to closure. But the University of Kinshasa actually had a small nuclear plant for experimental and medical purposes that the United States had helped them build when Chika Lobe was still operational. And we actually forced them to close it down in 2005. Number one, it was irradiating. It had not been properly maintained. Number two, we began to have very serious concerns about the potential access by various terrorist organizations to that source. So I can promise you that not just the US, but the Western world will have some very serious delaying tactics to throw in the way of nuclear power rising as a power source in Africa. Thank you, to be a wet blanket, but there it is. Just a FYI, I don't know that everybody here is aware of the fact that Mel worked at the Foreign Service and was chairman of weapons of mass destruction at one point in her illustrious career. Now, is there anyone else who would like to ask another question? Because if not, I liked where CJ was heading. And even though I've got all kinds of lovely questions here on everything from Germanium to sustainable growth. The question I really want to know is, Russell, how are what is the best advice you would give for developing talent to actually be able to bring these valuable resources from the ground and to run their own country when they're dealing with some of the most brilliant leaders in the world, you know, coming in. And basically, I don't know how to put this other than pillaging their communities, right? I think Prince Mamak would agree with me here. We want to see the locals have the education resources and positions to take a piece of what everybody else is taking. I am certain both of you have wisdom, advice and comments. And I would like you both to take a hearty three minutes each and then thank everybody for being here today. We invested a lot of effort. We being this, we being thank you for the room. Invested a lot of of efforts, emotional commitment and money. And frankly, I had a lot to do with that program. We brought our most talented Congolese to the U.S. And we hit them working at the Marenzie mine because we knew all along that our Marenzie mine was going to be the model for thank you for the room in the Congo. And everyone admired their intelligence and everyone admired their capability. There's an unfortunate reality in the Congo that goes to the power of family relationships and tribal relationships. And business doesn't get to escape those. So even the most talented people and we promoted them to serious positions face incredible pressures. And the thing that I've expected the most about those particular employees wasn't their technical expertise. It was their integrity and their commitment because they faced incredible pressures. And for me personally, one of the tragedies of Freeport selling the mine to Seema, among many other tragedies was that the Chinese have not respected the capability of the Congolese and they have basically downgraded them to surfton. So is it possible to do this? It absolutely is. Are they capable of it? They absolutely are. Are all outsiders equally willing to provide that opportunity? Yeah. You know, one of the best pieces of advice that I didn't take, but I would give now is, you know, there's such incredible rewards for entering the Congo. But at the beginning of your journey or anybody's journey, that must be based there. The act absolutely has to be based there. You can't fly in every quarter or every, you know, two months or so. At the beginning of the journey, you must be there and you must start developing those relationships and listen. Because there is a lot of incredibly talented people there looking to add their little piece of value to a burgeoning company and their excitement and enthusiasm comes through when you speak to them. But this is a country where you have to be hands on. And I wouldn't use the word micro manage, but I'm going to use the word micro manage. You actually have to understand at the very beginning from an underground viewpoint about how to deal with the with the positives and the negatives. And if you can get through that and it's tough if you're married or if you've got a partner or something, it's tough at the beginning. But if you get through that, I think your pathway to success will be much smoother. But it's that beginning journey of understanding the different cultures, understanding how that they are very intelligent people just looking for their opportunity to join a free port or big Ivanhoe or Glencore or such. I think that Western companies be very successful, but it's not a fly and fly out situation. It's get it boots on the ground, you know, dedicate the first year of just being there, understanding the positives and the negatives. And I think the Western companies be very successful. Thank you, everybody, for joining us today. If anybody would like names or contact information, just send it to me and I'll get you lined up as soon as possible. Thank you. And thank you, of course, Mel. And thank you, Russell, both for sharing your wisdom. We've had a lot of lovely chats here along the way, too. So thank you. Thanks for having me, Tracy. This was fun, Russell. It was great. Let's do it again. Six months. Absolutely. OK. Thanks, everyone, for attending.