 Good afternoon. Good evening ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to my show. Tonight this time I have my favorite guest of all time. He's been on my show three times and he's the only guest to have another celebrity guest asked for his autograph. That would be Brenda Lee who asked for his autograph after I interviewed her and she said can you get me F. Lee Bailey's autograph on a picture and my co-host Robert Baldacci was able to do that. So Rob first of all my co-host ladies and gentlemen is Rob Baldacci. Rob thank you for joining us. Appreciate you setting this up. Ladies and gentlemen the person that I'm about to introduce is in my opinion the greatest trial attorney in the history of the United States not because of the famous people that he has represented not because of the incredible success rate that he has had with his trials but because of his lifetime of accomplishments. He's written over 20 books including treatises on how to do criminal trials. I use that very treatise Bailey and Rothblatt when I first got out of law school. He has produced and hosted many television shows. Motion pictures have been made about his cases and about him so in my opinion he's the greatest trial attorney of all time because of his accomplishments not just because he's famous. Lee welcome aboard to my show your book is mesmerizing and it's it's incredible but I want to start off do you think you'll convince people that here-to-forth thought he was absolutely guilty do you think you might convince people that he was not guilty. I don't know I've been still a little bit mystified as why people are clinging to a notion as outrageous as the fact that the recent election was stolen because without facts they're willing to proceed to conclusions and this is an age-old American disease I'm not doing much for work. And so Lee you brought up an example that I thought of myself that not a single judge found any evidence but they don't care about that they go I don't care. Donald Trump said that the election was stolen that's what I'm going to believe. So it's an overlay that goes to explain much of the low quality of this trial and I can use it over the work or in fairness and that is California cannot separate out in showtime mentality from the seriousness of a real trial. And so we tend to get this circus atmosphere and whereas most judges would shut it down pretty quick they revel in it. And the lawyers go on and on and pretty soon they're talking about things that have nothing to do with the case but they're entertaining and the public can say oh yeah that's proof of this this and that well it's not proof of anything this is a tough business not meant to jerry along the way. Rob go ahead first of all thanks for sending me an advanced copy of the book and I read it and I think Dairies term mesmerizing is so appropriate with this book. Lee really it really takes the reader behind the scenes of what is perhaps one of the most controversial cases in American history at least in the 20th century and it's and the reader will learn a lot of information and facts that were never told and no one had any idea exactly what was going on behind the scenes the evidence that was admitted the evidence that was not admitted and I and it starts with the sort of the what what do you call it the pre-trial hearing Lee where correct preliminary hearing where that judge made a determination to turn OJ over for a trial and but certain information was left out can you kind of talk a little bit about that and what's set the state or the the and I'm not going any punches here Bob Shapiro had control of this case in the critical early days and the enormity of his mistakes began to accumulate first of all he attempted to give OJ a polygraph test at a time when the subject is not testable no responsible examiner would take a guy who had lost a lot of them whether he did it or not and try to test him for about 10 days to reach the examiner told Bob that but Bob when they had it created at least a rumor that OJ had flunk that's a bad way to start out with the presumption then instead of investigating immediately something terribly suspicious how did that glove get from the scene of the murder where it certainly was to OJ's house and why was it still wet and sick to the morning that's enough to light fires in the brain of even a double defense lawyer Shapiro missed it and so the judge had no benefit of the fact that this guy Furman was a racist and a little cock-eyed in other ways and no reason to give him the doubt she accepted it at face value she was a pretty good judge and I think given a better insight into what the facts were in this case my invention and the police I've gone back to investigating what to me is not routine but certainly not extraordinary drug related killing probably was against the wrong victim right right Lee one of the things that you mentioned in the book which I find incredible that Shapiro did not pick up on and that was that Edo's wife was a high-ranking police officer and he offered or suggested that he could be recused and Shapiro kept him on the bench just because he quote liked him and the first thing any criminal attorney knows is you would never have a judge on the bench listening to witnesses from the LAPD so that was a crucial error in itself having Edo in the trial am I correct at the time I said Bob what are you thinking this guy's got his head on the pillow next to law enforcement every night it comes in here to make impartial rulings with the whole LAPD depending upon him to save their face by making this book like a case and he said Eto loves me well Eto didn't love him and to drive the spike home Bob I think inadvertently I think he's vocabulary just in stress as far he called Edo disingenuous well that word means liar indeed a federal judge called Bill Barr disingenuous it's a proceedings a shorter time ago and the world understands the term but Bob didn't and Edo almost put him in jail nonetheless I'm watching Edo very closely at one time I said to him you're doing a very good job but he was and I knew there was a tension that he had to go home and answer to Captain York at night and and then that the police department expected him when it was a close call to lean their way and eventually he buckled and the trial I think disintegrated as that happened the ironic thing is once again not doing a homework and Edo offered a step down and accepted the next guy in line who would have inherited the case was probably the best judge on the Superior Court bench in the county Paul Flynn at least that's what all of the lawyers out there told me and a good judge could have made mincemeat of this case as it should have been I had lunch with the federal judge who sentenced Timothy McVeigh to death for the Oklahoma City bombings which had made a cowboy who had to set guns and wanted a friend to use them and I said judge if you led this case how long before you put the first lawyer in jail for talking too much he said three weeks Rob go ahead I think Furman in your handling of Furman is probably one of the classic cases of cross-examination that I've ever seen and I'm sure you'd agree agreed Rob people can watch it on YouTube but you you brought up the issue of Furman and had you your investigator Pat McKenna check out his background and apparently he wanted to or he did file suit to to be removed as a detective in LA given his his feelings toward the minority community and what happened that was early on Lee what happened with that the sequence is this and it's tragic you're quite right McKenna was not on the scene no more any of the bike of people before the preliminary hearing I pulled in a town the night before he should be able to arrange me to watch it by remote control he didn't want me showing up in the courtroom and deflecting some of the sunlight that was suddenly shining on this well never tried long he went around and pleaded cases it was two magazines I'm sorry to say not our detectives who discovered that Furman had a history of racial prejudice and had a deed applied for early retirement on the ground that he had trouble controlling himself with minorities especially youngsters the New York Magazine and the New Yorker for a newsweek and I believe the New Yorker both broke this at once and then we descended on it and get the records and so my goodness this guy has propelled this case into a trial posture in the superior court and he's a wacko and he just wanted to stay in the case and as he said on tape later on a few days later when the lady he was working with a movie script said I'm thinking I can't you for this he said they can't can't be this is a case about a glove I am the globe if the glove goes out the case goes bye bye never one true word spoke the case about a glove because he put it there and I'm convinced of that even though I don't have a video of him doing so you in your book give the four reasons for elements of why we could find it not guilty by reasonable doubt number one is the timeline the fact that it would have to be accomplished in such a quick period number two his demeanor at various times on the plane off the plane a thirdly motive the motive was not big enough he'd seen his wife with other men before including in a very compromising position and lastly the statement that he gave at the beginning where he knew nothing about it of all those four can you tell me which one you think is the most important element of any criminal proceeding is a demonstration that the accused had the opportunity to commit to crime without the opportunity or a conspiracy where he's controlling it from some remote position he's out and OJ if you took the places that we can put him and the people that we could put on the scene where OJ was not he clips the possibility that he could have committed these murders in the evidence and gone ready freshly the shower to hop on a limousine to go play golf in Chicago and the jury as I clocked it back out because there was some doing here press said it took four hours to reach a verdict they had a verdict in 53 minutes and probably prior to that except that the demon who was one of the few white people in the jury Caucasian and very obviously not a fan of OJ's she held it up by saying we need to make sure the limousine driver didn't see anyone run into the house when OJ would have to have been running in the house limousine drives and I flew John I had my headlights on they covered the driveway nobody moved in the house till I saw OJ come out of the house at that point the jurors would have been told you said and listen to all the testimony not just some part of it they got up and walked out they called for verdict forms and eight minutes later we had two verdicts that was enough for me I wasn't told the press you've got an appointment the press is saying how much time do you think you'll get indeed he won't get the chair that I go into the prison and said to OJ you know I am good news for you and that is my expert conclusion in this case close to infallible that you better put in it but you're bringing on ready who told you Rob Robin Lee I have to tell you Lee I had a $600 bet on this trial that he would be found not guilty when the person I bet with call me and said guess what Derry they came back in four hours I said then quadruple the bet because I knew if they'd come back in four hours it was not going to be a guilty verdict and now you're telling us it wasn't four hours it was 56 minutes Rob go ahead Lee again this is absolutely fascinating and and I'm so happy that you were able to come up with this book to set the record straight and hopefully some of our mainstream media friends will pick up on this and start to present a different case to the American people based on based on this book but you your comments regarding Shapiro are are well known the incompetence speaks for itself talk a little bit about how Johnny Cochran got involved and how he helped to shape the case was this the first time you had met Johnny yes Johnny Cochran had been a prosecutor in the DA's office with some distinction for a period of time went into private practice and made a specialty of suing cops for abusing minorities and I bet quite successful and was very popular he was very well spoken his father was a preacher as Johnny was intended to be and his handling of the language within his genre was to be admired indeed I went in West Palm Beach to hear him preach at the famous black church down there a few white people invited and I'm pretty tough when it comes to critiquing people's handling of the English language is I think most people don't handle it very well but Johnny did the case occurred in Santa Monica and now I would have been tried there in the white community with plenty of money but bear in mind O.J. was a quasi part of that community he was a light-skinned black who had set the all-time record in the NFL for rushing he was a Sun Time actor didn't win any Oscars he ran through Airports for words and he did sports casting from the sidelines and he was extremely popular had a great time with the ladies no reason to think that he would get upset over his wife and knock her off I've been happy had the first case been tried in Santa Monica God said he was still reeling from the Rodney King episode and they had made a mistake they tried the cops in Rodney King the first time in Sydney Valley well Sydney Valley is about four steps to the right of dengue's kind and that was a bad job if ever I saw it they all get acquitted the fence come in and charge them and convict them and put them away and got sitting at roundly criticized so he said well I'll take this case down town with the minorities will be on the jury and I'll avoid that criticism also much more convenient to have the trial in the building where to his office was okay when it was moved downtown and OJ had always said to she better look I'm honoring you to try to stop this thing don't ever get any illusions I want you to try it you've never tried a verdict case being being OJ was very sharp and he retained information well sometimes he got too far of himself as he did in Las Vegas and decided what the law should be and acted as though it were but during the trial I must say he was an ideal client and he said if we're gonna be downtown we need Johnny Cochran their first Johnny Johnny said no Michael Jackson doesn't want to be in a defend you because he doesn't want to be associated with you each got an trouble as it is that he turned the case down and they kept the pressure on it finally they said the greater good will be to defend OJ Simpson and so Johnny withdrew from Michael Jackson and took the case down I was already in it and when he took over I had lunch with him I said Johnny I would brought in here to a hard-to-eye Furman and throw him at a corner if you are comfortable doing that I don't like health or yeah I don't like traveling 2,000 miles every time I have to come out here and I'm perfectly happy to disappear from this case and let you handle it and he said oh no I want you to cross examine Furman well not eventuated into the most miserable years of my life because I'm enough and most defense lawyers are recognized for doing the job they're required to do with that's put up the defense indeed Felix Frankfurter once said the Supreme Court a measure of a culture's worth is the way it treats its worst citizens how fair a trial can you give a monster and I had skated through the Boston Strangler killed 13 women for reasons we as yet don't understand and some other pretty scary people without ever getting any month slow on my house or my car or my person but OJ was different OJ said wait a minute he did it he's gonna get away with it and Bailey will be the guy that helps him get away with it and I got treated that way throughout the trial but more importantly after the trial cockpit in his community was a hero and Johnny within his ambit did a good job now if he cross examined in one of my cases the way he did it OJ I would have said Johnny this is not a country hold on this is where the women spied and Johnny was all smiles but he was affected and between us I think we got the worst of the witnesses pretty well honk died and nitro eyes and so it was a good working team I liked the man more than almost anywhere I've ever worked with I had never worked a case before where I was anything but lead counsel or a cold lead counsel I'm a Marine I'm in the habit of giving orders not taking them because if you fall I sing a legend Jack you better give the orders there's nobody there to give you advice in case your story off so it's a way of exercising your profession and with one huge exception where we did all but the blows Johnny and I never had a quarrel of nine months and I found that to be a wonderful measure of equity between two professionals of totally different backgrounds totally different origins and even cultures melding together to make a single effective force that part of it was a joy the rest of it you can take the OJ Simpson case and flush the toilet I wish I'd never been involved in it but if I had to do it again I would because I am convinced that OJ had nothing to do with these burners was totally a victim of all kind of bad things the after slush of the Rodney King debacle the LAPD which insists on being a sewer no matter how many times we played it out and other factors that just make this an unpleasant memory nonetheless you can't believe that someone's being falsely accused of a murder this monstrous and sit back and do nothing about it even if I've known I was going to take a pasting get chased out by a crooked cracker federal judge from Alabama who was sitting in Florida and put me in jail by a bar association that had the cojones of a stud field mouse and right on down the line oh don't laugh your bar association made felons stacked by hair but they did they just couldn't be big enough to my being and thank goodness I am I own club I don't let them in Lee it's an experience that most lawyers would crumble over and I thought about that I said the hell with it if the world is out of step with Johnny you'll reverse that I'm Johnny the other guys are all wrong Lee we didn't have to ask a single question I wish you could be a little more eloquent I know I am enjoying this so much Lee one of the things that the Johnny did was as you put in your book Billy and Rothblatt you tell the jury you suggested them their reasonable doubts and he gave him 15 questions that Marsha Clark did not answer and that's exactly what he did except you told you said in your book that the jury they they reached their conclusions not just because of the 15 questions that Johnny had but because they were actually listening to the evidence is that correct questions I thought she would have trouble with and he asked some of them but if you're gonna use that technique it's like taking them off and sticking a pin on it you can't let it move and wiggle and Marsha Clark could wiggle if any question if you ask if she was a female she'd say yes go ahead Rob go ahead Rob no I mean this is this has been this has been enjoyable and it's good to see you Lee in good health I'm glad you're you're back home and and ready to you know hit the ground running here you've got a great book and and I and I wish you a lot of success with it your point about Lee your point about how this case has impacted you sense and the the animosity that some people have have shown the fact that everybody think you know who thinks that OJ did was innocent is nuts and that seems to be the prevailing sentiment there were there been TV shows movies you name it that have only solidified that so and you raised the point about and this is a main TV show the main bar and I was I was with you every step of the way there and I think it's one of the real travesties of the state I agree Rob I'm gonna interrupt Rob I'm gonna I'm gonna interrupt because we get a close Rob you're closing on a note that I would have closed on in my opinion I surely wish that F. Lee Bailey was a brother of the bar with me it didn't happen we can move on Peter Detroit did a great job Chief Justice softly wrote a fantastic dissent Lee I cannot thank you enough for being on this show you are my favorite guest of all time you're the greatest lawyer in American history thank you for being with us Rob thank you for setting it up and folks we'll see you the next time thank you