 Hello and good afternoon and welcome to the Institute of International and European Affairs. First can I say to anybody who had planned to join us live in the office in North Great Georgia Street we just had to take a technical decision this morning that it was better not to put anybody at risk and we decided to make the whole meeting online so that everybody could join in. So you're very welcome today. Today we have a talk entitled The Shadow of Famine how the food crisis is impacting the Horn of Africa and beyond. So just a few housekeeping things you can put your questions in during the speech and you'll use the little message on the bottom of your screen. You can also send in messages at IIEA and I'd like if you gave your name and if you're part of an organization that would be a help as well and the minister will speak for about 20 minutes or so and then we will have a time for questions. Now today we are very very pleased indeed just back from a lot of travel to have with us column Brophy Minister of State for Development Aid and some of you will know that this is an area of policy that I had a great involvement with when I was in the Dall I chaired the Development Aid Committee for about seven years and did quite a bit of traveling to the various African countries where we were at that stage only associated with four countries. Now I think it's nearly the whole continent of Africa but column was appointed minister of state with responsibilities for overseas development and the diaspora in July 2020. He's a vinegale TD representing Dublin Southwest and was elected to the Dall in 2016. He served as chairman of the budgetary oversight committee which is one of the most important committees established in Leinster House and he was also a member of the Committee of Justice and Equality and the Committee of European Affairs. He was a former member of South Dublin County Council and he's a former member of the Board of the Housing Agency and he's also a former president of the Association of Irish Local Government. Well that's some CV column very impressive indeed and I'm sure it's being looked at very closely now and we are very glad today that we are going to first be introduced to column through Michael Gaffey who is a very senior official. Are you Secretary, Deputy Secretary General Michael? You can tell us that I've forgotten your exact title. Michael Gaffey again is an old pal of mine. He was in charge of the Women, Peace and Security Committee which I still chair and he's come back from Geneva and he's now very senior in the Department of Foreign Affairs so I'm going to hand the chair over to you Michael to open the proceedings and then you can hand on to column. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Nora and that's enough about enough about me but I will say about you Nora that I certainly am really aware of your lifelong commitment to the issues of development and and humanitarian assistance and so it is really great to see you chairing this very important discussion because we really despite all the progress that we've made on development we're at a particular moment now of great challenge where there are a series of interlocking crisis, humanitarian crisis, food security crisis, development crisis and peace and security crisis which require us to consider how we work more effectively especially through our development aid program and I have been back in this role since the start of September and the very first thing I did was accompany the minister on his visit to the Horn of Africa which he is going to speak about and I just want to say that Ireland has since that visit played a very strong role internationally in highlighting this crisis which if it weren't for Ukraine would be on our screens every day of the month and we have done so also with the benefit of increased funding directed to that crisis so Ireland is playing a strong international role and I'm very glad to say that it is being led by a very strong minister with a very strong personal commitment to working on this crisis and guiding us in how we can be more effective in our work and with that I just will hand over to that minister Colin Profay so that you can hear his statement. Minister I'll hand over to you. Thank you Michael. Hello good afternoon everyone thank you Michael and a particular thank you Nora for your opening remarks I was actually two things I supposed to say in relation to them first of all as you went through it I was beginning to realize that I've been around a long while so when you start when you start hearing the list it suddenly dawns on you and obviously the second thing is just to say that I've known you for for so many years and always have been so impressed by the work you've done in this area indeed it had a big influence in my interest in the area when I was starting out and so just having said that obviously to say thank you to the IIEA for organizing the meeting and the current crisis in the Horn of Africa I think deserves all our attention and and as was mentioned by both Nora and Michael it needs to be treated I believe with far more urgency and determination by the international community than it has been to date and one of the principal motivations from my recent visit to Kenya and South Sudan was I wanted to increase both the domestic and the international attention that I knew was needed in what is basically a dire and rapidly deteriorating humanitarian crisis and I always say that if we get to a point where we have television cameras as we had in the 1980s when we remember back around the live aid turning up if they are filming those images that is actually failure because we don't need to reach that point we can intervene now and that's a lot of what I want to talk about today so I want to talk about the overall scale of the crisis which is staggering there are 36 million people affected by five seasons of drought in the Horn of Africa that's focused particularly on Ethiopia on Somalia and Kenya there's over 21 million face acute levels of food insecurity and malnutrition the current estimates predict that the figure will go as high as 26 million by next February hundreds of thousands of people particularly in Somalia are already experiencing famine like conditions and having seen in northern Kenya while I saw firsthand that is absolutely the case I knew the situation was great but I witnessed was even worse the region is facing a series of what I call an interlocking crisis so there's drought and climate change there's global and regional conflict and there is unsustainable food systems the devastation has been wrought on vulnerable communities mostly across the Horn of Africa as a result of this confluence of factors and it's really hard to overstate the people facing starvation who have been forced to flee their homes and to abandon all their lives and the impact this is having them now in addition to the drought and it's almost counter-intuitive to say the subregions are experiencing wide-scale flooding year after year I saw firsthand when I went to bed to outside Sudan where you and camps house those who've had to flee the large-scale climate reduced floods that ravaged the region over the past several years traveled in for juba could see the small tiny fragile dikes that are holding back vast expanse of water that's actually threatening to wipe out these makeshift camps and as I was told firsthand what are the tragedies of it is is the rain didn't even fall in their region it fell far away and the floods came down to this area so they got no benefit out of the actual rain they just got the floods there's contrasted though completely with what I'd seen in Turkana in northern Kenya their other communities are completely stricken by drought and they told me at that stage when I visited that they were really sad and worried and terrified that the rains would fail again now unfortunately that has happened and the humanitarian catastrophe that is now ahead of us is like nothing we have seen I believe in many many decades I spoke to a man in Turkana and he really had an impact on me in terms of what he said he pointed out that their animals are dead the trees under which they were sitting are dying and he feared that he and his children would be next that's an incredibly powerful thing to hear said to you firsthand by a community leader who's going through this literally in front of your eyes in a nearby health clinic I also met with mothers who had severely malnourished children literally children too ill to cry the malnutrition rates in those clinics have doubled since February and they continue to work continue to get worse as the drought continues but in addition to the immediate humanitarian crisis we're also watching the eradication of a way of life cattle were the main source of food and income for pastoral farmers in this region over the course of my visit I did not see any not one left alive in Kenya alone they estimate that 1.5 million animals have died due to drought for millennia the people of Turkana relied on their livestock for survival it's just no longer tenable the people of Turkana and many million more are going to have to find new ways to live the primary driver of these environmental crisis is undeniably climate change this is climate change happening now average annual temperatures in the region are increasing at almost double the global rate there's changing weather patterns there's environmental degradation it's having a huge impact it's shaping conflict cycles it's impacting on food production it's threatening livelihoods and it's literally wiping out ways of life small scale farmers who produce more than 80 percent of the world's food in Asia and sub-Saharan Africa are completely disproportionately affected by this climate change so if you take the climate in juice shocks which are obviously intertwined with the unsustainable food systems which continue to deteriorate this crisis shows no no signs at all of ending just of getting worse you add to that new and ongoing conflicts political tension global impact particularly ironically of the war in Ukraine which continues to undermine the global food production of food security which has really exacerbated the situation so the actual as people might be aware role which Ukraine and Russia played in the export of food and the impact of that war therefore has had a considerably exasperating situation in Sudan for example where military coup last year halted the democratic transition that was underway about 14 million people are experiencing high levels of food insecurity that's phase three or worse while the food crisis has been felt across the region the drought in the horn is having perhaps the most acute effects although we have had an official declaration of famine the reality in parts of Somalia and elsewhere is that famine is there and should be responded to as such and believe me when you see it first hand it is a famine it is important to remember that what we are seeing in the horn is one of the worst manifestations of today's global crisis but world hunger and acute insecurity are escalating humanity needs are at an all-time high and we also obviously have severe food price inflation the number of people in the world facing hunger began to increase in 2019 the figures are stark in 2021 that number reached 828 million 828 million by the end of 2022 at least 222 million across 52 53 countries will be facing acute food insecurity and in need of urgent assistance starvation is a real and very real risk for 45 million people in 37 countries the global rise in food insecurity is also exacerbating what was already a severe humanitarian situation in West Africa one of the most fragile conflict affected regions so you have 34.5 million people facing food insecurity in Saharan Lake Chad Basin who are violence obviously linked to extremist armed groups and intercommunal conflict is resulting in an appalling numbers of civilian deaths and fueling the political instability and the humanitarian crisis and it's something we need to be so conscious of the fact that that food insecurity will fuel political instability will fuel all the conflict situations the unfolding humanitarian catastrophe though is particularly disproportionately affecting women and children currently only one in five young children in the Sahel received the minimum number of required food groups this is reflective of the tragic fact that always children bear the highest burden of malnutrition globally an estimated 45 million children under the age of five were suffering from wasting last year that figure I believe well for me anyway is hard to comprehend even more so when you actually consider that child wasting is entirely preventable but as I witnessed in health clinics in northern Kenya it is a very real and sad reality there's just a narrow window of opportunity to prevent an even greater crisis and widespread famine in parts of Somalia south Sudan and Ethiopia humanitarian agencies and partners have appealed for 3.4 billion to provide assistance to respond to the drought unfortunately that appeal is only 55% funded 55% funded severely limiting humanitarian agencies capacities to respond and save lives it's vital that the international community responds urgently to prevent large-scale starvation and death and as I said earlier on remember when the cameras turn up it's the definition of failure it's too late so apart from this being our responsibility as those citizens it's also our responsibility as developed countries the drought is a direct result of climate change and we cannot ignore the role that developed countries have played in causing this Kenya produces and this is I think just one of the great ironies Kenya produces one two thousand of global co2 emissions however at the same time almost 75% of the power in Kenya comes from renewable resources the countries in the horn did not create the crisis and they should not be expected to manage the costs and the consequences alone now Ireland is definitely playing its part following my visit I'm very glad that the government announced we'd provide an additional 30 million in immediate humanitarian assistance to respond to the urgency of the crisis across the region at some top of the 3.2 million in additional humanitarian aid that we dispersed in October including 1.5 million to the Irish NGOs active on the ground and 500 000 for unicef's work with malnourished children in Kenya it brings Ireland's total support in the Horn of Africa this year to over 100 million now working through the trusted partners on the ground obviously including the UN agencies and the Irish NGOs Ireland's funding will support the most vulnerable communities right across the most severely affected countries in the region these partners have been chosen on a proven geographic and sectoral and because of thematic expertise and their capacity to deliver effective timely responses to the needs of those worst affected by the crisis a focus will be on life-saving health nutrition and water and sanitation and cash responses will align with Ireland's commitment always to be reaching those furthest behind first but we'll place a strong emphasis on supporting local humanitarian efforts special attention will be paid to the plight of women and girls who I mentioned earlier who've been disproportionately affected and obviously by the drought obviously by the drought and to ensure that their needs are mesh this additional funding from Ireland complements support already provided through other channels including the multilateral agencies and the pooled funds of Acha and essential emergency response from surf which has been central to the response in the Horn of Africa we've already had those ready surfers already provide 143 million in 2022 and Ireland is among the top 10 donors to surf you provide 11.5 million annually there now while our immediate priority is to save lives Ireland's funding will also begin to lay the groundwork for longer-term resilience and development that will empower those left furthest behind to withstand the inevitable shocks that come and I think it's really important because we have in the last number of years really allied both our immediate response with our development commitment because it is such an important way of helping not just to save people in an initial response but to empower those communities so in Somalia for example a million pound contribution from Ireland to the international fund for agricultural development is boost in the agricultural productive capacity the food supply chains the irrigation and domestic water supply I saw firsthand on my trip how just by using a targeted approach to help farmers who had been possible to grow crops you can enable a community to stay where it is and to actually start to grow the food that is necessary to sustain them in a longer term in September 2022 at the high level event in New York at the UN with USA administrator Samantha Power Ireland pledged 50 million to fight acute malnutrition over the next three years this is in addition to our pledge to provide over 850 million over five years on nutrition programs and interventions supporting partners working on the Horn of Africa and indeed in West Africa will be a key focus of this response coordination across the nexus of humanitarian development and peace actions is now more important than ever in the horn we recognize that humanitarian funding alone will not be sufficient to address the complex challenges facing the region and our development program will also look to target the underlying causes and the drivers of conflict that's instability and food insecurity in the region we will prioritize actions targeting gender equality strengthening governance and climate action as well as maintain a focus on food insecurity and malnutrition our humanitarian action complements our robust political intervention to protect civilians and resolve conflict this includes obviously our engagement at the UN Security Council over the last 10 years where we've actually taken a very strong leadership role on peace and security in the Horn including chair of the Somalia Sanctions Commission we've also been to the fore on the council's engagement on Ethiopia where two years of conflict in the north of the country had a really devastating impact on civilians the peace agreement reached between the Ethiopian government and the Tigray at Irish's last month I believe was a really important step towards peace for the country however implementation of all aspects of that agreement will now be the key and the immediate focus must remain on ensuring humanitarian access to all those in need Ireland has prioritized some of the key drivers of the current crisis in the Horn throughout our term on the Security Council through our work on hunger and climate at the Security Council I believe we've galvanized international attention to the underlying causes of food insecurity including conflict and climate and we continue and will continue and continue to need to do that even after we finish our term on the Security Council as you will be aware the budget in 2023 that the government provided here provided over 1.2 billion for international development this is an increase of 18% on our 2022 and represents an unprecedented investment in Ireland's overseas development program of this 75 million will be focused on humanitarian and other needs in Ukraine and in countries affected by the impact of Russia's invasion and those countries obviously include the Horn of Africa an additional 25 million will be provided as part of the government's commitment to more than double our climate finance per year by 2025 most of this will be channeled towards adaptation activities for vulnerable countries including those in the Horn linked to this I'd like to highlight the role played by Ireland at COP in reaching a historic outcome on the priority issue of loss and damage Ireland held the key position of lead EU speaker on loss and damage and indeed my colleague Game and Ryan taking the leading political role within the EU to help negotiate the agreement during COP and when you think back and you think about loss and damage to the figures I gave you in terms of what say Kenya's contribution to emissions is that is why loss and damage is so important the agreement includes the establishment of financing arrangements for loss and damage obviously including a new fund and importantly the outcome also includes key provision which will enable the funds to target developing countries that are most vulnerable to climate change the focus of my visit to COP was on how Ireland's international development program and climate finance supports resilience and adaptation to climate change in developing countries I announced a funding package of five million for climate adaptation resilience we targeted focused on the least developed countries and the small island developing states I also highlighted Ireland's support for climate resilient food systems and announced a further 14 million over three years and to to support research and development particularly in food and agriculture systems including strengthening climate resilience in this sector Ireland continues to work through the EU to address the crisis in the Horn of Africa on the 20th of June the foreign affairs council endorsed the team Europe pledge for over 600 million for the Horn of Africa an additional package of emergency aid for the region was recently announced by the EU as part of the new 210 million effort to address food insecurity in the 15 countries it's welcome but we still need to be doing more I would like to conclude by going back to why I am so appreciative of your focus today one question that I regularly get asked is what more can we do whether that be as Ireland or as the international community or even just as concerned citizens to ask that question I want to go back a little bit to that man in Turkana that I mentioned earlier when talking about what else he wanted from us he didn't ask for more money which I thought was really interesting he didn't ask for more resources he wanted for me for the people who had come to make sure that people knew what was happening and to be a voice for them he asked just that one thing to make sure that people hear what is happening hear what I have said to you and to be a voice for us right now is really important that we all use our voices in whatever way possible through whatever channels we have to urge the international community to step up this is the message that I heard repeatedly while I was in the region both speaking to those directly affected by the crisis as well as indeed by the UN my NGO workers on the ground in South Sudan humanitarian actors that I spoke to stressed the need to make sure that South Sudan does not become a forgotten crisis and that was I thought interesting because they really wanted to make that point I was there just around the time the floods that were happening in Pakistan and they were so conscious of the fact of what was happening in South Sudan and that it was almost completely lost to the world 8.3 million people over 75 percent of the population are experiencing severe food insecurity food insecurity I mean it is an incredible dire situation and it is almost completely and utterly going without mention anywhere we must step up our emergency humanitarian response we must listen to the voices of those urging us to address head on the underlying drivers of the crisis including how the approaches to global economy and politics are exacerbating and having a devastating impact in some cases on climate change on unsustainable food systems and a conflict on the ground the crisis is far too big for any one country to tackle alone far too big not just for a country the size of Ireland it's far too big even for members of the G7 or the elite countries of the world it requires the whole international community to commit itself to show resolve in responding to the immediate needs and in addressing the root causes so when this time when we hear it said never again we actually mean it so before I conclude though I want to also stress that across the Horn of Africa there are actually some positive signs of hope elections took place in Somalia in May that resulted in a peaceful transfer of power the new government actually seems set on improving relations with its neighbors and in tackling the threats posed by Al Shabaab and is engaging really constructively with the international community in Sudan an agreement was reached between military authorities and civilian representatives that may and we hope again lead to a restoration of the democratic transition in Kenya the recent presidential elections and the transfer of power that also took place peacefully and finally in Ethiopia as I've mentioned the brutal conflict that resulted in hundreds of thousands of casualties a peace agreement was reached last month and that's holding hopefully and will allow obviously that humanitarian need assistance that's needed to begin to reach those so countries on the ground are playing their part and there are positive things to be seen there it is important that we continue to play ours Ireland will remain steadfast in our commitment to tackling the immediate and substantial needs in the Horn of Africa while also continuing to advocate for sustainable solutions that address the underlying drivers of the crisis there is still a chance to avoid the worst-case scenario to avoid the crisis as I say at the start and I'll conclude by saying that if we wait till the cameras turn up to fill in the scenes that we've seen before that will be failure we can avert that we can stop that happening but we must do so by acting urgently and acting now thank you very much thank you very much indeed minister for that very comprehensive report sadly mostly with very bad statistics very bad news in it I was particularly hit by one expression you use and wiping out way of life and I was reminded of Ireland when covid hit and we were all very frightened we didn't know what was going to happen and it did begin to wipe out certain forms of life that we enjoyed but we had a government and we had the money thankfully to put inputs in to prevent the worst fallout from the covid but in the countries you've been speaking about they don't have the resources or if they do they're not being properly spent there's a lot of corruption and I'm glad that you've finished on a more positive note that some of these countries now are making an effort maybe to move on from some of the bad practices and the bad corruption and leadership that they have had and we have to face that reality but the the figures are frightening and I I did a quick calculation 38 years 1984 when I went to Ethiopia and the terrible famine was on there and then we saw great lift in Ethiopia became very positive and we were really very confident about its future and here we are again talking about Ethiopia and I know many of the people watching this webinar will be working in NGOs will be working in the concerns, throat for his goals, Christian aides you know that are trying their best to make life a bit better but thank you for that comprehensive report. I'm going to start with a question and I have some questions coming in as well question here from Keel and our researcher last Friday I think the UN Security Council adopted a resolution which of course Ireland was part of the co-drafting team with the United States to create a carve out across UN sanctions regimes that protects humanitarian systems and meets human basic needs do you think this is critical and will it work because what we see too often is that great promises are made but there doesn't seem to be any sanction against the countries that don't live up to the promises so I just wonder how you feel about that resolution now that we are nearly ending the term of our UN well I think very positive towards I think it is important that we look at how we engage on these levels because we need to have a carrot and stick we need to have an approach that enables us to implement and we need there to be a consequence for non-implementation so I'm conscious of the fact that we're moving on that and I think that's a very positive thing for us to be engaged on thank you very much I mean it is important that we continue to play a role and we certainly do play a role we have a voice I think you've said that minister several times and we have a voice that's far bigger than our size and I've seen that over very much it very much so I mean one of the really positive things about our engagement with the UN is that while yes our term will come to an end we have worked in such a positive way with a number of countries and that the impact and benefit will continue beyond our term there's a lot we can continue to work on and do there's a lot of roles we can continue to play and it's a particular viewpoint and an approach to how age should work and run that we do and that we brought to the UN in terms of our membership to the Security Council but I believe we can continue to influence and it's very much about the ethics of what you do reaching the furthest behind and putting in place the structures particularly for me one of the the key things is around the the peace and security side and also ensuring that humanitarian and development response by international agencies is linked so as that you don't as I mentioned in my contribution earlier on that you don't just see them as separate but you actually put in place the supports for a community after the immediate crisis response to enable them because to go back to the point you said earlier on Nora in terms of and you know if you have thousands of years of a way of life being wiped out you have entire communities being devastated what you were going to end up is if you don't support them to actually be able to continue to live in a new world in a different way with maybe agricultural supports and new food systems then you're going to see mass migration and mass movement and whether that's internally within their own country whether it starts to cross international borders all of it has the potential to generate conflict all of it has the potential to be incredibly destabilizing both to the governments and regional authorities in the area where it starts and the areas where the people end up so from so many aspects both the immediate response and the development response are absolutely crucial in terms of what we're doing. I mean there can be at times people critical of the number of people who land in Ireland or Europe looking for asylum and refugee status but you'll have to go back to what we've been listening to you saying to see where that starts and so in a way it's in our interest to try and help people to stay in their own countries earn a living bring up their children. Now I have a question here from Geraldine. Just one small point to that Nora that's really important is to remember that only a tiny percentage of people actually end up in countries like Ireland the real crisis is caused by movement which has people moving within either their own country. I mean in South Sudan I saw two sets of camps side by side the people who have been living for over a decade in internally displaced persons camps living in absolute dire conditions now being joined by people who are living in camps next to them because of the climate crisis for both of those communities have had their entire way of life shattered and have ended up having to live in these conditions because of both in one instance climate and another instance conflict and the real impact is felt very often in either the home country or in the neighbouring countries where the vast majority of people end up. Yes and you have people moving from one very poor country to another very poor country looking for help there. I've seen I've been in those camps and I know they just bring tears to your eyes when you see the conditions. Can I go on to some questions here minister if you don't mind I have one from Gerald to her who I know is a former army officer and a member of the IIEA he says Kenya is significant exporter of agricultural produce particularly fruit and vegetables to Europe. Is it overdue for Ireland to challenge the Kenyan government to divert those exported cash crops to help feed its own citizens? That's an interesting question. Well there's always a balance to be looked at in terms of what a country is actually doing and what its food requirements are and actually the Kenyan government is very good at working and the new Kenyan government has been particularly good at implementing very quickly programs to try and address the need for revitalising the whole system of agriculture in the country looking at how food security can be maintained, looking at how you continue because countries need to continue to trade. I mean in the longer term a country's ability to trade is hugely important towards its ability to deal with crises like this but also provide food solutions to people on the ground. That's why they're working with the international community on some of the schemes I was talking about where they're enabling and developing agriculture different forms of agriculture in affected regions. So while I can fully understand that it might seem the most obvious thing to say right well why are you exporting when you have people who are hungry in your country? I think it is a much more complex solution which involves how you handle the resources and I think what the Kenyan government in particular is doing is working with Ireland and working with the UN and working with the international aid to the NGO to make sure that the right food solutions are provided to tackle the crisis we're facing into but they can't do it alone overnight if they stopped probably exporting every single item of food that doesn't solve the problem in the Horn of Africa it doesn't even solve the problem in Kenya. This is a much bigger international problem that is a multi-billion pound response that's required that is vastly beyond what a local Kenyan government or any local government in the region can do and we need to actually recognize that that our real solutions to this is how you actually tackle in the immediate the crisis and then how you put in place which is something by the way Ireland has really worked on is enhanced and new food security that enables the country to be able to not get caught in this again. Yes thank you I think this next question from Philip McDonough might be along that lines he says are there technologies that can help communities in East Africa to transition to new lifestyles does this imply a link to what he has in inverted commas regenerative agriculture in the European Union? I know when and many of my visits to Africa I saw kind of improvements in how you cope with agricultural growing you know using the dead leaves of other plants to keep water in the ground and that sort of thing so really what Philip is asking is are there technologies that you think we should be using and that the African states should be getting hold of? Absolutely and I mean the situation is this the thankfully Ireland is to the forefront of this in cooperation projects between both universities and between Shagaskan and agencies on the ground it is really important that developed Western countries recognize that for everybody's sake food security and the way in which we do agriculture has to change has to change radically and there is absolutely solutions that can be worked on and can be developed as I mentioned earlier on just down to a very simple thing I saw on the ground due to taking in the technology which is the type of technology that used to be used to try and find oil to using that in a converted way to find sources of water which are deep sources of water which can then be tapped into and brought to the surface which will work in an honorable situation so in other words the growing of crops which can then feed a community that can enable that community to continue to live in a local area and the old style of farming which was predominant in the Horn of Africa was a pastoral based farming which effectively involves the wide-scale roaming of cattle and goats and some instance camels and that just won't work anymore there isn't surface level water there isn't a climate anymore that's to sustain it but we can and should be doing everything we can to put in place the food systems through technology that's already there but which is beyond obviously the ability of countries are not to mention local people to afford to put in place the new food systems that will enable them to feed themselves there is no point in having a disconnected response which saves our stops an emergency but then leaves people effectively no better off and on the verge of famine yet again in almost an immediate period of time it's what I what I have described and as literally taking people back from a cliff edge by asking them to step back two steps and then leaving them there that is not a solution the solution has to be both we must deal with the emergency and then provide the longer-term solution because if you don't you will either end up with mass migration and the potential for conflict leading to further problems or you will end up with a community back at the verge of famine yet again yeah I must say minister you're right and technologies from from philips question here is it yes it's philips question about technologies I mean the one worry I always have about high technology and equipment is that it goes in it does the job and then it's not maintained and the parts aren't available and then the next thing it's just what we call refer to as white elephant stuck there on the ground I saw so many of them over the years that it is important but technology now is quite sophisticated and it is it's it's much smaller you know than it used to be so you can leave the spare parts behind you're right nor and also though technology has has simplified out in lots of ways so while the initial equipment might maybe needed to do a survey can be a sophisticated piece of tech the actual equipment necessary with a solar panel attached to it and I've seen this firsthand to enable the drilling to take place and the water to be brought can actually be done and provided in a very very in clever way that actually enables local communities to be able to work and maintain that system because some other development countries which build very excessive projects in in different parts of the world which aren't maintainable around the long term and it going to be sustainable they turn into white elephants what we must always be conscious of in our work is that you must deliver a project that can continue to be developed and implemented by the local community yes indeed now I have another question here minister from Michael O'Brien trends of increasing global food insecurity the severity of climate and biodiversity crisis has become ever clearer and you've mentioned so many of them what opportunities does the minister or Ireland see for advancing meaningful action on this nexus at COP 15 I think a lot of us got a little bit confused we thought COP in Charamelle shake was the COP meeting and then the COP 15 started so you might just I don't know whether you're intending to be there or have somebody out there at COP 15 but the biodiversity issue is now taken front of centre stage you know my colleague I think minister Malcolm Berners leading on the COP 15 which is the Canadian COP if anyone has been following this the biodiversity side is really really important one of the things that we have done in Ireland is to actually position ourselves almost ahead of a number of other countries on this and particularly our work on food security systems and a lot of work done by Tom Allen a lot of work done by the government a lot of work done by agencies importing into it has made some of the the processes which we have as ones that are actually world leading and there's other people are looking towards it is really really important and probably will be at the heart of this climate argument that people still don't they think they get the general COP they get the general emissions whatever but biodiversity and food security are absolutely central and we must get it right the the current approach which the developed world has is non-sustainable and the current approach to agriculture is something and this doesn't this doesn't limit agriculture this just means we do things and look at how we do things in a better and different way because we continue to need agriculture to feed the population of the planet but it's how we do that in the most sustainable way that food security is really going to be so important. Thank you very much I just want to ask you how how much knowledge is there now of wheat getting out of the Ukraine area we saw it was completely blocked but then more recently we saw ships managing to get through and I just wonder if you have any up-to-date knowledge on that and the other question I want to come back to is the COP meeting in Charamel Shake where this loss and damage was agreed now I'm not sure I fully understand exactly how that is going to be rolled out and how countries can be first assessed as to what they're entitled to under loss and damage and which country or countries are going to fill that void for them and pay them for what they've lost and damaged sorry about that but I just want to hear what you know about that. Well no I'll give you a very straightforward answer the reason you don't know is because that detail is not there yet and so what came out was the agreement in principle to move on to it and then that we would look in detail what what minister Ryan wanted and what the EU wanted and what we wanted was some particular constraints particularly around that the targeting of that resources goes to the most vulnerable countries the countries that need it most and that the principle which is really important that there's a recognition which is what loss and damage is all about at its heart loss and damage is about the green the principle that there needs to be a easy access to funds to help countries most affected by climate impact who have contributed the least and are usually in parts of the world where they are the most affected that they would receive support and financial support and movement to them to enable them to deal with the loss and damage they suffer from the wealthier countries that actually was a very difficult principle to get over the line you had certain countries which started off even in Egypt not to mention in in in Scotland with you know reparations and we don't want this in the whole lot and that's why it's such an achievement to have got to the point we've got there is a lot of teasing out of those details the one thing we're focusing on is that it should be easily accessible there's there's a lot of climate finance provisions out there there's a lot of talk around climate finance but when you talk to countries that are the most vulnerable that are the ones that are in the direst need of access to the development climate finance they'll tell you it's almost impossible it's so complex that by the time you go through the the hoops and the rings you know you've experienced another climate issue disaster and you now need more funding more funded again so we need loss and damage to streamline that and to work and that'll come into place and that's really at the heart of it and the ships the wait thank you I was trying to remember now two things really important to remember the first is the situation in Ukraine has exacerbated and the crisis that was taking place in the Horn of Africa it was there before it and this has exacerbated it and the program is welcome and it is good that it is happening it under no circumstances replaces the loss in what was the actual flow prior to the war and therefore the world food program which would be one of the the biggest recipients of grain coming out of the of Ukraine etc we'll tell you that while it is helpful to have that program there we need greater flows and we we need them and you know unfortunately with the way in which the program is implemented it is limiting in what is coming out it's it's much better than nothing but it is not sufficient for what is needed and and therein is part of the problem yeah I know that that seems to be the worries a lot of people have can I just we're coming near the end here minister now can I just bring you back to maybe local and and our own society you know how do you in your role as minister for overseas development and the diaspora engage with civil society working on the ground in these humanitarian situations and I'm assuming and I know it that you are consulting in program planning and budget allocation with the many agencies both the department itself and the agencies that are providing humanitarian assistance but is that have you have you a good link of communication with these groups and NGOs they do tremendous work I serve myself on both the throat reward and the concern board in my time and I know the kind of work they're doing but are you satisfied that there's still general popular support for the work you are doing the very simple quick answer to that is yes and I think we're very lucky and it should never be taken for granted because it's not universal across European countries it's not universal across developed countries that the level of support which exists in Ireland in terms of our work on international development our work on humanitarian response and the amazing support which the Irish public shows to our NGOs and our NGOs therefore as a result of that support are some of the best NGOs in the world and they punch well above their weight in an international arena and it is there because of the really positive engagement at government at NGO and the public level in terms of the willingness to support and fund now that should never be taken for granted it's continually important that we explain and that we inform and there are programs which we work at through the schools so it's that the next generation coming up are even more aware of global citizenship and more aware of the needs and why we should be doing what we are doing and we need always to make that case because particularly if you if you face local economic hardship and cost of living increases and things we've all experienced here in our own country sometimes you know you always wonder will people say well then why are we doing why are we spending why would we ever want to but I always say this two things I think that have huge impact one is our own history and you know it's just 150 odd years since our own famine and since we were the recipients of support from Choctaw Indians from communities around the world that had such an impact on our country and I think that still plays right the way through in terms of the willingness of Irish people and the willingness of Irish society to be general the other thing I think is that as a nation and as people we are generous we have always been generous and when we see something that we recognize instinctively is something that should be supported we are willing to be there and we are willing to help I think we showed that nor are going all the way back to the proportionate response in live aid and you know in terms of what Irish people did they're right up to the current day when you look at our response on Ukraine or when you look at our response to other international crises Irish people have always been willing and they've always been willing to back the Irish government of its time in facing these issues and in being there and I think we just need to make sure that we keep up that national way of responding because I think it's something as a country and as a people we can be incredibly proud of but yes we'll always continue to work and always try and improve and enhance those levels of communication right along between our NGOs and the department here between myself and the NGOs and between the communication as I said at the heart of it which I think is most important with the next generations to the school programs that we run. Thank you very much and I think it's a positive way to end when we remind ourselves of the excellent work that our NGOs are doing better be careful naming too many of them I might leave some out but I know there are small NGOs that we don't often hear about doing excellent work but besides the concerned throat or goal Christian aid the big ones but there are many of them there and we must pay tribute to all of them for the work they are doing minister I want to thank you most warmly and sincerely for your very comprehensive report today and if anybody wants to share some of the information with friends and maybe they hear friends saying oh why are there so many people coming into Ireland and looking for asylum maybe they need to hear some of these facts and figures and recognize that despite the fact that we're having difficulties perhaps housing people are getting proper accommodation what we're doing is only a tiny tiny portion of the needs of many of these countries and their people so thank you for sharing with us we wish you continued success I know there's going to be changes in the next week we don't know whether we'll have you back again and the best the best of luck to you I have no idea I have no idea either by the way Michael Gable is probably listening very carefully to this and wondering what what will be there next week but thank you most sincerely and thank you to our audience and for your questions today good afternoon to you all