 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. I am Neelanjan Mukhopadhyay and you are watching Present Past and the Future. Years ago, when I was not even a journalist, I had a chance meeting with the legendary film director, Meenal Sen. He learnt I was probasi, meaning a non-resident Bengali with just a vague idea of my subconscious. He almost ordered me, read up about three episodes of 20th century Bengal and you will understand our psyche better. First, Bengal partition, beginning with the British attempt in 1905 and then the eventual surgery in 1947. How communalism fired this eventuality? Second, the Bengal famine of 1943 which killed millions of people and had a profound impact on the consciousness of people. And finally, the episode of turbulent Bengal of the 1960s and 1970s. It gave Bengalis the image of being romantic radicals, but there is little of the spirit now. His words brought back childhood memories at that time, stories my grandfather narrated when the family, like most others, survived on residual starch after rice was cooked. This was about a missing cousin when we visited relatives in 1970s. The story of Bengal partition was however, learnt with the help of historian friends and the books they advised. The tragedy of division was interlaced with several instances of communal flare up, including the great Calcutta killing and of course the Noa Khali tragedy. The last item on Minhal Babu's reading list is extremely relevant today. We just completed an astonishing election in which the BJP won 18 Lok Sabha seats in West Bengal. The CSDS post poll survey showed a dramatic rise in Hindu support for BJP from 21% in 2014 to 57%. On the other side, Muslims lined up behind Trinamul Congress from 40% in 2014 to 70% now. Driving the Hindus for BJP sentiment greatly is the Jayashree Ram slogan which had little traction in the state during the Ram Janam Bhumi agitation. Is communalism in Bengal an overnight phenomenon or does it have a past which we have brushed beneath the carpet? Have we lived in the illusion of West Bengal being home to revolutionary politics because the Indian renaissance are germinated in this land? I have with me, Partho Ghosh, a former professor at JNU who has written extensively on and about Bengal. His writings or identity, nationalism, migration and statelessness have been particularly insightful. Welcome, Professor Ghosh to my program. In a recent article, you have argued against two presumptions. First, that Bengalis are not communal and second, they are non-violent. You in that article referred to an 1858 Tarini Charan Chattopadhyas Bharat Bhashwari Itihash, which you call the virtual anti-Muslim manifesto. Does this mean that from the late 19th century at least, religion was the main basis of social identity in Bengal and that the so-called Hindu Muslim Bhai Chara that we talk about was actually all a sham. First of all, let me thank you. Before I… My privilege, you know, to have you respond to you a couple of footnotes to what you said. One is, I am also like you, a Prubashi, Bengali. I am from Bihar, probably you are from UP. I grew up in UP. This is one footnote and the other footnote you talked about, Minal Sen. I often feel that these, some of these film directors, they make better social statements than we academics. We write volumes but cannot say anything much. But these writers, you know, they often touch the chord which we do not do. That is just a footnote I wanted to add. Because I remember Minal Sen's Agdin Pratidin, you know, the way he portrayed the tension of the lower class, Bengal is a post-partition Bengal, post-47th partition Bengal. Having said that, let me address to your question, you know, that communalism and… Yes, as a child or till, say, few years ago, I had the romantic notion about Bengal as liberal state and leftist state and where there is no possibility of any communal tension, flare up, or communal consciousness. Where what is thought today in the rest of India thinks 50 years. Yes, that's right. That's right. And I think it's just the opposite now, what the rest of India thinks today. Thought yesterday, Bengal is thinking today. Yes, that is what I hope I'm proved incorrect, you know. We all hope so. Yes, when I was looking into this issue of Bengali communalism, I was struck by the fact that how in the mid, from the mid-8th, 19th century, there was a huge, so to say, development of consciousness for Hindu nationalism, which was not so much there in the rest of India. One reason could be that Bengal was the first state to be, you know, to be exposed to English language, secular education, and things like those. As a result, popular class of educated people emerged that because you were exposed to liberal thought, you would leave obscurantism behind. That's right. That did not happen. It happened partly because it was British created also. For your information, the first book that came in 1823 was the history of India by James Mill. James Mill had never ever visited India and he could have the audacity of writing a book in 1823, History of India, and in which for the first time he talked about the periodization of Indian history, Hindu period, Muslim period, and British period, market. Not Christian period. So dividing history and history on the basis of... He never talked about Buddhism actually. Right. You know, India was ruled by Buddhist for a very, very long time. He never mentioned, I do not say that it was motivated, what he was writing. Maybe his ignorance actually, I would say. Everything cannot be motivated. To get back to, you know, what I'm trying to understand, you know, that we are actually seeing a very communal phase of politics in contemporary Bengal, you know, that is what you're seeing. And we're trying to understand that this has actually a link with the past, you know, which began from the middle of the 19th century and then thereafter it became more and more worse. You know, you started having riot after riot in Bengal in different parts, right from the 1890s onward to some of the most ghastly riots, you know, that we actually see, you know. So, you know, that what we look at, you know, that, you know, Bengal was, of course, also was one of the major centers of the national movement, the Swadeshi movement, for instance, which in 1905 was also the first attempt on part of the British to actually divide Bengal on the basis of religious identity. Questions which come from there that did the British did do it to appease the Muslims to give them certain amount of, you know, a greater share of the power in East Bengal. Second is that was this also in some way targeting the Hindu Bengali elite, the so-called Bhadralok because of the leadership position they took in the Swadeshi movement. You're talking 1905 between 1857 and 1905. One huge development took place in Bengal that was Hindumala, Hindu fairs, you know, which started I think in 1860s or something a bit earlier than the Ganesh festival which was started much, much, much earlier. Much earlier. Hindumala was an annual gathering, something like this Tablighi Jamaat or something like that Tablighi Jamaat, I'm not entering, but that's a different issue altogether. But that is but a congregation on the basis of all Hindus and that became very popular across India. It was imitated in Lahore, it was imitated in Chennai, those days Madras. These all these developments were taking place in Bengal as a result. The appearance that was there with the rest of India, particularly the rest of the India's Muslims was that Hindu nationalism was concentrated in Bengal. Here one small point I want to make that in 1875 onwards we see the Aligarh movement that Muslims must get educated. We also see in three decades, we also see in 1905, 1906, we also see the Muslims coming out. Let me complete this point. And Saiyad Ahmad who led the Aligarh movement that Muslims must get educated to compete with Hindus, his entire targeting was Bengali Hindus. He never talked about other Hindus. If you see his speech of 1888 in Merat, he is talking entirely as if Hindu nationalism is monopolized by the Bengalis. I was struck to read that speech actually. Now coming your question about 1905. 1905. Apeasing the Muslim elite and also an attack. Actually that was not that was not projected by the British. Obviously not. Projectors projection was that it was Bengal was too big. It is unmanageable administratively and things like that. But the point we noted here is that if you go to Bangladesh, which is published not exactly by Bangladesh's government but sponsored by Bangladesh. But by the conservative section within the Bangladesh. They entirely agree with the British you know interpretation of 1905. That's right. I have also checked some of the accounts from Bangladesh which actually shows a very lopsided and a very sectarian way of presenting the past. That's right. You know and actually in history it is very difficult to say what is lopsided and what is not lopsided. Everybody has its own orientation of reading history. That's why I am saying that history is the most difficult subject to read actually. You know what now we are talking about you know the Swadeshi movement. We see definitely also the issue in the Swadeshi movement that use of Hindu imagery by the leadership to some extent it also alienated the Bengali peasantry. So Bengali Muslim peasantry would you say that you know that by the early decades of the 20th century Bengal had come to a point where communism in Bengal had reached a point of no return and thereafter it was just a question of as to how long can you manage the entire tension which was there and somehow the other prevent it from erupting into major riots. I would prefer not to use that extreme word of point of no return. There is nothing like that in history actually. But I would say that the class conflict in Bengal got mixed up with the communal conflict. Yes and that started with Karnu Wallis actually. His permanent settlement if you see Zamindari system so called. I do not I cannot go entirely into those details but communism and class conflict got mixed up in Bengal and as a result we see most of the communal riots which we see Suranjan Das' book Oxford University Press 1991 which talks about riots in Bengal and he has enumerated of the 50-60 riots that took place between 1900 and 1950. And that was you may say it communal you may say it is class conflict. It can be interpreted both ways and I think there is a huge interlocking to these issues actually. Now point of no return. We also see you know through the 1930s and the 40s we see the rise of the Muslim League becoming the main voice of the political voice of the Muslims. Of course, there were certain you know people who stood against the Muslim League for some time at least first rule Huck for instance you know even though it was part of Muslim League at some point. Second thing is that you also see the Hindu Mahasabha becoming very strong especially after Savarkar gets released from jail and Shyama Prashant Mukherjee joins the Hindu Mahasabha and takes charge of Hindu Mahasabha in Bengal. So 40s become would you say possibly the most important decade as far as communalism in Bengal is concerned. Yes I would say for various reasons actually. I would say that 40s not exactly for ending 47 40s and partly 50s that was the period I find several dichotomies existed in Bengal. That is one Congress in Bengal, Congress in Delhi there is a tension. There is a Muslim League in Bengal and Muslim League in rest of India, North Indian Muslim League there was tension you know. Similarly there was a tension among the Hindu right as well and towards the in Bengal in actually there was a conflict interest between the type of things that Shyama Prashant Mukherjee wanted and the type of thing that was developing in North India under the leadership of Savarkar and the RSS also. There was a tension there also therefore all I would say that there is a sense of bengaliness you know which was emerging there and it is still there. Quite often it is said you know you probably I am mixing up. I think you have raised a very important point. Quite often it is said you know that there was a very strong bengali nationality which had emerged through the 1940s which unfortunately could not go to its complete you know logical culmination which is a separate Bengal as there was a very nascent proposal to ensure you know that to have an independent Bengal independent of Pakistan and India. That's right that who was also there. I find this period must be I am not I have not studied myself but I would say that this bengaliness or so-called bengali nationalism emergence it is still there. I would say if you come. In fact the foundation of Bangladesh because of this bengali identity. Yes it was essentially the you know the bengali identity. Hope actually. You meant having reached the last point on it. I would say this is the only hope. There was a party although that party was you know non-starter Amra Bangla Amra Bangali I do not know you remember or not there was a party like that Amra Bangali were 12 crores Bengalis and if we unite together a great nation blah blah blah you know that was there but I would say that in all these different categories of thinking there is a huge amount of bengali identity you know and therefore I would say I my hope is there that even this emergence of communist forces in Bengal will get contained will get contained by this element because I remember once GP Koirala said that I am not worried about communism in Bengal it is it is Bengali communism I know you know GP Koirala used to say you know I would say therefore this Hindu communism in Bengal will also take a difference. In fact in fact when you say you know that your hope you know I think possibly if we say that if anybody asks you you would possibly say that your reason for finding hope out of the darkening clouds in Bengal today is the 1946 elections in Bengal where the Hindu Mahasabha gets routed it does not win a single seat. Shama Prasad Mukherjee is the only seat and that too a non-elective on the university quota seat. So which means that despite practice of Hindu communist politics through the late 30s and 1940s being part of the government not resigning during the Quit India movement also despite that people do not vote for the Hindu Mahasabha. You have the great Calcutta killing Noa Khari taking place you have partition yet when the Jansang is formed they do not perform very critically. Although that is I do not want to go into because our time is probably limited I do not want to go into that debate here about the rise of left and what you know how it contributed to that also not but the point is what you are making is quite well taken and that is what I am trying to you did not mean I you missed one point you know that is Bengali language. Yes Bengali language you know I refer to it very you know obliquely that in the Bangladesh struggle it was actually entire thing was around the Bengali language. Yes Bengali language is a unifying force that does not happen in North India. North India is Urdu versus Hindi plus Islam versus Hinduism you know. But if you actually look back in Bengali history also you will find that a certain amount of Persianization and Sanskritization did happen you know and Sanskritization from the Hindu. So yes language also you know both the Hindu. Yes I know several tensions. The positive side is that they took away their bits from the Bengali language but the still we take hold of the Bengali. Still it is Bengali with the Persian touch and with the Sanskrit touch. Persianized and Sanskritized Bengali. I think it is very important for us to understand that we had Shama Prashad Mukherjee and NC Chatterjee members of parliament in the first Lok Sabha elections. What happened is that after that you would have a situation where they do not do very well for several decades. What do you think is the primary reason for that. Jhansang. Yes Jhansang. Actually there are actually Hindu Mahasabha that is the nucleus of Jhansang actually. Hindu Mahasabha had lost its glamour by by the time the partition took place I would say. And one character you are missing that is Devaprasad Ghosh you know. Devaprasad Ghosh was a great ideologue of Hindu Mahasabha and he became a Rajasabha member also and he gave fiery speeches also. And he was right hand man of Shama Prashad Mukherjee you know. And his writings show that there is a disillusionment with even Shama Prashad Mukherjee within Bengal, within Bengal. And your question is again a very large canvas you are trying to draw. But this refugee movement there is a distinction between Punjabi refugee movement and Bengali refugee. Punjabi refugee movement was concentrated in in few months time and millions. Bengali refugee movement was in trickles you know hope despair, hope despair that people will go back people will come back like that. But 1943 you mentioned about Minal Sen in the beginning. 1943 famine had a huge impact on Bengal and the rise of right sorry rise of left can be attributed to some extent to this this famine of 1941. Then the IPTA movement and other things very important that the cultural radicalism that we talk about. Although CPI was banned by the Congress government in 1948 in West Bengal against Nehru's wishes you know. But CPI the influence of the communists continued. And then question came of Dandakaran settlement and the other one Andamanikoba settlement. There is huge protest against those movements from the refugees. They didn't want to go you know. And behind them stood the communist party of India actually. I do not want to go into these details. Firstly they are very complex and I cannot probably handle them. No we also do not have the time we have to actually talk about it you know we have also. But these things are very important actually they cannot be ignored. No it cannot be ignored and it is going to be a very very turbulent period in Bengal over at least over the next two years you know. We have been able to understand a fair bit about the history of communalism in Bengal and also trying to understand as to what lies in the immediate rise in the last few years of the of the Hindu right in contemporary West Bengal. Thank you Professor Ghosh you know it has really been wonderful we could have continued this conversation for a much longer period of time unfortunately we have to wind up. Thank you very much. You know as far as Bengal is concerned you know the current situation of moving towards a Hindu right you know this is going to sooner or later have an impact on Bangladesh politics also. Because if there is consolidation of Hindu forces you know it is going to be very difficult for the Bangladesh government to prevent a counter reaction or a counter mobilization in their own state. So situation in West Bengal and also in Bangladesh Apar Bangla, Opar Bangla as they say is actually going to be very tense and we got to keep a very close look over the next few years on this particular region. Thank you for having watched this program you will see have another episode in a few days from now. Thank you so much.