 Welcome to ASU Cut Talks, the podcast. I'm your host, Pete Zeroka, and I'm here today with Charlie Ralski, a PhD student who studies microplastic pollution in the ocean and its impact on marine life. Hi, Charlie. How's it going? Beer brother? Oh, hey, yeah. Beer brother. I like that. For the listeners at home, we both have large formidable beards. It looks like a lumberjack cast engineer. Thanks so much for being here with me today, Charlie. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Microplastic pollution. Tell me a little about that. How much is in the ocean, and how did it all end up there? We have no clue. That's the scary part of it, is that we have no idea how much is in there. We just know that we kind of take these exploratory missions to places, and we'll say, I wonder if there's plastics here, and there are. And then I wonder if there's plastics at the bottom of the ocean, and there are. And I wonder if there's plastics in bird poop that these birds on an island that have no contact with humans, and there are. So I've yet to find an ecosystem where there really aren't microplastics. And in terms of how they got there, that's kind of the scary part, because these bigger plastics break down over years and years and years, because of the salt in the ocean, because of the physicality of the ocean. Some of these microplastic particles are probably at least 50, 60, 70 years old, because it takes so long for this really resilient material to break down. So basically around the time we started using plastics in a huge commercial way, they started ending up in the ocean ecosystem. Yeah, exactly. It's kind of like how we utilize DDT back in the day, and then there was a ban on DDT, but then we still find it actively in certain locations. That's going to be plastic. Even if you ban all plastic, which I don't think you should do, but if you ban all plastic right now, we would still find plastic for years and years and years to come. So good at making it a commercial product is also the reason why it's sticking around for so long. Because it's durable. Durable. It has a variety of uses. Cheap. Yeah. Something that's expensive. It's used by virtually all these really developed countries, and yeah, it's a vicious cycle. So one thing you mentioned in your KED talk, something you actually make light of is that you're an ocean researcher in the middle of Arizona. So tell me a little about that. How did you find your way to ASU, and then how much does actually being located here impact your work on the ocean, which is pretty far away? So my family lives here, and I liked the area well enough. I went here as an undergrad, and I got a really cool teaching job that I wanted to carry over to a grad degree. It allowed me to get funded, which was a really nice setup. But I never lost my love for the ocean, and a lot of people tried to kind of place me in labs that revolved around insects or reptiles, which I love reptiles, and insects was both awesome, but that's not what I really wanted to do. So I connected with my advisor, Ralph Holden, and he had a very big imagination, kind of like I did, and we kind of came to the mutual decision of studying plastic pollution, and we created a method to be able to kind of fill a void in the plastic pollution world, and that was identifying really small particles in microplastics. So we created a method, and it worked, and then we started getting interest from all these groups kind of around the world that had plastic pollution around them, but no way of really understanding it. So then that filled our void. We didn't have samples, they didn't have analysis, so we'd connect, and now we're at this hub for studying microplastic pollution, which is really cool. It's great. It just shows that you don't have to study something that's right next to you. You can still have an affinity for a location and still be able to study it, even though you're not right next to it. Which is really nice to pass on to students that I mentor and teach. It's really cool. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you wouldn't think that an ocean researcher would end up here, nor could your work have such huge impact that it has so far. You spoke about a method in samples. First can you tell me about the method you guys use to study microplastics? And second, what are the samples you study? Sure. So this will probably be the coolest thing I ever say, and I use a laser. And so the laser basically shines into any type of material, and it shoots back a signal, and that signal is really subjective to that material. So it's going to be almost like a fingerprint. And we can use that, you know, there's relatively, you know, around seven types of plastics more than that. But generally, there's about seven, yeah, big groups that keep making more. But I can usually, you know, I can create a database of all those signals and be able to compare any unknown plastic to those and identify it. So, you know, we get a variety of samples, and I think probably the most interesting one would be, you know, marine mammal poop, which is kind of a good conversation starter, depending on the location and the appetite of the person. But a lot of marine mammals are ingesting fish, which have ingested microplastics, and so it kind of works its way up the food chain and ends up with us. And so that's kind of where I am right now. I'm actually going through seabird poop and finding microfibers and analyzing them to sort of understand what type of material it is, and maybe if it's degrading and all that fun stuff. So marine mammals, that would include large, like whales and stuff, right? Oh yeah, the biggest animal in the world, yeah, sure. Wow, okay, so I don't know what whale poop looks like, furthermore, I wouldn't know how to find it. So, well, first, gross. But secondly, what have you learned from studying it, and how do you go about finding those samples and collecting them? So whale poop is far superior to human poop because it just smells like fish. That's a weird sentence. We've got a whole, yeah, our stuff is straight up nasty, but theirs is just kind of like bad fish. It just smells briny. Yeah, just weird fishy smell. It's not bad at all. When you're in the area, you kind of sniff the air and you think there's a dead fish, so kind of like that. But you have to get really creative because marine mammals only surface every once in a while to breathe. So there was a group in University of Washington that trained a rescue dog to smell for marine mammal poop, specifically killer whales at the time. And this dog was incredible, his name was Tucker. And he could smell poop from almost, I think it was like a mile away. And he was kind of a black lab, we said, because he would look like one and act like one and then he'd fall in the water and freak out, so kind of a terrible black lab at the same time. But yeah, so he was the legend, he's retired now, he's living his best life, but he helped us or he helped create a method where people could utilize rescue dogs to smell marine mammal poop and collect and analyze it. So Tucker would just hang out on like the bow of a ship and just bark in a certain direction, you guys would go for it? He would kind of look around and look at the birds and look at the water and just hang out. And then once he queued on, once he smelled something, he'd get really excited and shake his butt super hard. Okay. And then in the direction where he'd shake his butt is where the handler would kind of look and she'd have to read his body language and then relay that to the boat captain who would have to sort of, you know, drive the vehicle in that direction. And then once we saw it, we use these really expensive organic cereals and we'd grab a handful of it and throw it at the poop so that we could remember where it was because something in the ocean that's floating will be there one second and then disappear the next. Right. So for some reason, only this cereal would float and it was like $6 a box and I never had to buy it, thankfully, or I wouldn't have. But you could throw the cereal in and then you could come back to it and then scoop it up. Wow. That's a very involved process for collecting what amounts to a big piece of poop. Yeah. Yeah. And the grossest part was that you would have to fill out kind of this form about how the poop looked where it was, all that good stuff. And all of the descriptions were food based or most of them were. So pancake and egg drop soup. So, you know, those are further ruined for the rest of my life. And it's straight up, like it looks like egg drop soup. If I take egg drop soup and put green food coloring in it, it's killer whale poop. Wow. Yeah. So you can carry that with you and take that wherever you want. So that in itself is an incredibly challenging process just to collect samples so you can actually conduct research on it and draw conclusions. What else is challenging about studying marine life other than the ocean itself being like super inhospitable towards people? Well, I mean, you kind of captured it there. You know, we're not, we're not very good at studying the ocean. So when people talk about how it's, you know, we've explored more of space or Mars than the ocean, it's because it's very difficult to access certain parts of it. Right. And, you know, we can, we can kind of replicate what's done on land in the lab. You know, we can create environments similar to that. You can't really create the ocean in the lab, especially the marine mammals. You only have a really small window to sort of study them. You know, they surface, they, they interact with each other. They talk to one another. Sure, that's fine. But then if they take a deep dive, we're done. We can't study them anymore. So it's really difficult to sort of get a grasp on a lot of these organisms just because the ocean itself is so difficult to get a grasp on. So you do one thing that I think almost every kid wants to do at some point in their life growing up, which is be a marine biologist, though, you kind of balk at that term. Can you like walk me through the whole marine biologist thing? So I think, I think Seinfeld kind of ruined that one. Really? When George says he's a marine biologist and he makes it up and tries to save the whale with the golf ball. It's just such a broad term, right? So it's not bad. Right. It's like saying I'm a biologist. Yeah. So people are going to say, OK, what does that mean? And what, OK, what do you study? You could study as a biologist. You could study the smallest thing, the biggest thing, just the same as me. A marine biologist could study phytoplankton or it could study blue whales. It's just really vague. Right. Right. It's a cool saying. I don't have anything else to replace it with. Yeah. So I'll keep it. Sure. But but if I if I go to a marine mammal conference, I'm not going to say that just because people are going to laugh at me. But at the end of the day, what we're doing in the ocean is the same thing is what people are doing, you know, with wolves somewhere and, you know, or with like marmots somewhere. It's it's all the same type of analysis. It's just with a different organism. So, you know, I don't know. At terms, they're so weird. Yeah, I'm just going to keep saying it because it annoys people. But at the end of the day, I don't even know what to call myself. That's the nicest thing I could probably call myself as a marine biologist. But thank you, George, for saying that for that one. Seriously. Yeah, ruin it for all of us, man. Yeah. So you love the ocean. Can you tell me a little bit about why you like the ocean? Did you grow up near the water, you know? And how did you become interested in becoming an ocean researcher? So, yeah, part of my early life was on the water in California. And I thought it was just so cool because I kind of coupled it with also fishing. So in Montana, I used to fish a lot. And when you look at the water, you just have no idea what's in there. It's just the unknown. So every time I looked, you know, on the water, at least in California, I was expecting to see a cool dorsal fin or like a humpback breach, something like that. And just the potential for something cool to be there was really exciting for me. So I was just, you know, because it's the unknown. You can be on the boat and have no idea what's underneath you. Most time it's nothing. It's just water. But, you know, maybe one out of a thousand times, there's like a cool dolphin under there. So I was, I was really influenced by that from a young age. So I think most people would talk about the unknown and then they'd couple that with fear of the unknown. And I'm one of those people. The ocean is very scary to me. I don't like knowing not knowing what's underneath me. So like, was that ever something that bothered you? Or is it just like more curiosity? Curiosity, really awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So when I got scuba certified and the scuba instructor told me that when you're in the ocean, kind of all the animals just expect you to be there. And they just assume you're a really weird looking fish. And they just say, OK, this weird looking fish is hanging out. And then that's cool. So it kind of gave me the impression. It solidified it that once we're in there, it's OK. But you know, if I saw a shark, I'd be scared if I was swimming along and I saw that, you know, those teeth, then I'd definitely be terrified. Other than that, I'm pretty cool at the ocean. You've never seen a shark while you're scuba diving? I have, but it was a shark that doesn't bite. It was a nurse shark. OK. And they use suction to feed. So I mean, at worst, it would just suck on my skin. And that's cool. I mean, that would be a cool story to tell. Have you ever seen anything scary while you're scuba diving or had any weird experiences, either location or just like something odd that happened that was memorable? I was scuba diving in Monterey and the dive instructor was in front of me. And the kelp was so dense that it pulled the regulator out of my mouth. And so I reached down and did the normal scuba pick up and put it back in my mouth, and then he was gone. So that was kind of scary for a second. Lost your instructor in the sea of kelp. Yes, like forests of kelp. Yeah. Yeah. And we were being followed by a sea line that was really curious. So I kind of thought that sea line might bring me, you know, to safety because you read all those stories about dolphins. Totally. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but I just went north and the instructor went south and we found each other and it was a happy ending. Wow. So when we were talking a little while ago, you mentioned something about an otter. Yeah. So I saw an otter in that same area and it was so cute. And I just remember, you know, it kind of brings me back to the movie elf when, when he sees the raccoon and he goes, come here. And I did that. I was like, you're so cute. And then it just came at me and tried to attack me. And it was, it was one of the biggest bummers in my life because it was so cute. But it just wanted nothing to do with me and wanted me to be probably dead. That's why it kind of came after me. So I've, yeah, again, I've been around, you know, quote, unquote sharks. I've been around sea lions. I've been around predators, but, you know, the, the most threatening thing that I've ever seen was an otter, which is a bummer. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's like such a disconnect between this cute, cuddly thing. But I love otters. Like one of my favorite things at the zoo. Right. Don't be cute if I can't pet you. No. Like be, if you're going to be cute, let me pet you. I mean, I think that's just a really basic thing that if I could complain in nature, that would be my number one complaint. What is a, what's your favorite thing about your job? My favorite thing about my job is the opportunity to take or to try to take really complex, interesting scientific information and relay it to people so that they can understand it and care about it. There's, there's so much really amazing stuff in science and research, but it stays in this lingo that is super difficult to understand. And you can't really disseminate it really easily. You have to break it down and sort of package it as something that most people can relate to. So ASU provides a lot of really great opportunities to connect to the public. And there's so many schools around here. I just spoke at an elementary school a couple of weeks ago and talk to the kids about plastic pollution. And it was just, it's so awesome to connect with people and be able to take this stuff and break it down and show them that, you know, this goofy bearded weirdo can become a scientist. So you can become a scientist. And, and I think that's, that's probably the coolest part of my job. You know, despite the sad parts of research and uncovering things that are difficult to deal with, the happiest part is just connecting with people and showing them how accessible science is. I'm sure it evens out all the sad stuff you discover too, because you're getting more people aware and active and involved in like this huge problem that truly affects everyone, not just people who live in California or Hawaii or Australia or what have you. Like it, you know, we all eat fish, right? Sure. So yeah, we all have a connection to the ocean. And, and, you know, being able to show people the connection and then also show them how they can make a difference is a big deal because it's, you know, we kind of assume that that all of the the coastal parts of the United States are responsible for pollution. But it's not really the case. You know, it's all we're all connected as one. And there's a really diverse way that that that waste gets distributed, you know, into the ocean or around the United States. So we all kind of have a part to play. And so the negative is, yeah, we have a part to play the pollution. But the positive is, yeah, we also have a part to play with with solving this problem and being less of a pollution monster than we are. And so it's really great to be able to connect with people and show them that they can make a difference. So in terms of like outreach and science education stuff, is lab casual kind of like an outgrowth of that? I always like to encourage students to get into research because it was an area that I didn't really have any help with. Right. And it's so important to get on your resume, to get work experience. And and I've worked with so many students now. And it's the thing I'm literally the most proud of in the world is that I think I'm on student 38 that I've gotten either into a lab on campus or an internship or, you know, I've helped get into med school, something like that. And I worked with one student named Anna Guerrero. And she was incredibly talented, you know, with her artwork. And she also had an affinity for science. And so we worked together and found her someone to do research with who was really keen on anatomical structures and evolution. And it was just perfect for Anna. And so, you know, we worked together. She and then she she knew I love Darwin and she drew me a picture of Darwin in this really regal pose. And she wrote Darwinning and I just thought this would be the most awesome shirt ever. So, you know, I've worked with a couple of groups and we put on a shirt and thought, you know, let's sell it. And then all the proceeds can go to charity. And and since then it's just kind of become this awesome little charity group. And and and I drew an amazing picture of a sea turtle that's made out of plastic pollution. And it's not SEA turtle. It's SEA turtle because it's hard to recognize. And it was just the most beautiful thing. And and so we're selling that one. And, you know, it's a little side project. But the really cool thing about it is that it's connected with people all over the world. And, you know, they've seen the shirt and said, this is really cool. But then they've sent me plastic from the area. And so I went from thinking, oh, this is just a charity to oh, my gosh, I'm connecting with people in England. And now they're sending me, you know, beach samples from there from Bournemouth and I'm analyzing them and getting like a spatial distribution of plastics around the world just from this charity. So that's really cool. Yeah, really cool. So it's a it's a clothing brand, I guess. I don't know. Brand is kind of it's not Gucci, right? I mean, it's a little it's a little extra. It's a little Gucci. Yeah. Yeah. I don't really know what it is. It's just her talents and me trying to be a part of that. But I don't have the talents. So I'm just kind of using her talents to connect with people. We're also making a shirt now that says citizen scientist. And it says we wave back at the ocean. And we're hoping that the people that wear those are going to do beach cleanups and then, you know, these bright colors so that you don't get, you know, you don't lose your child if you're doing a beach cleanup. But it also is very, you know, grabs attention and you can talk. Oh, how can I? What are you doing? How can I help? And then further utility to exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah, so we don't take any of the money that gets donated to either like a plastic pollution cause or we donated to a group out here that trains therapy dogs to work with at risk kids. Gabriel's Angels, they're amazing. And so we got to raise money for them. We drew out a shirt of Pavlov. Oh, right. Yeah, everyone needs Pavlov. Yeah. Yeah. So it's really fun. There's a lot of cool nerdy things. I mean, as a scientist, if you're told, oh, you make something nerdy. Oh, my gosh, like your brain explodes. There's so many things to make nerdy. Right. So where can people find these clothes? We have a Teespring store, just type in lab casual. OK. And they can go by. We have like a sea turtle tow bag, which is kind of cool. Interesting. Which is reducing the plastic use. Back to your Ked talk. So how did you prepare for it? Can you tell me a little bit about your thought process and your thing, but what you want to tell people? And then, like, how'd you practice it? Did you practice on friends or colleagues or what have you? So I took the most normal approach to practicing and I would go into a room in my house and read it to my gecko. You have a gecko. I have a gecko. What's his name? Guillermo. Guillermo the gecko. Guillermo the gecko. He's he's had some hardships. Oh, so he lacked a little bit of vitamins in his life and developed metabolic bone disorder disease. How does it affect him? He's just fragile. Oh, OK. And his he's got kind of chicken wing arms now. So he crawls. He doesn't really walk, but, you know, he he makes the best of it. He's the true story of perseverance just because he lives. He lives his life like a normal gecko, but he's kind of broken. So I read it to him because he's really judgy and I feel like if I were to mess up or something would not be genuine, he would kind of give me a look. So Guillermo really helped me to to perfect that. So naturally, the last time I read it to him, I literally hit every single word that I needed to and got super confident. And then I sat in front of the camera and I forgot everything because maybe I needed to bring Guillermo with me. Maybe. But because I didn't have him, I just everything deleted. Well, you still did great. And I'm sure Guillermo is a big part of that. Yeah, I mean, he's he's the reason why I live my life the way I do. Wake up every day for. Yeah, I mean, why wouldn't I? He's just perfect. So aside from Guillermo, what's your favorite animal? Specifically, once you study, I buy it. Yeah, killer whales, killer whales are my absolute favorite animal in the world and will always be there. They're the most complex predator that I've ever been. I haven't worked directly with wolves. They're kind of like, you know, when people talk about a social system, it's wolves. But killer whales are just the most dynamic, incredible, emotional animals I've ever been around in my life. I think I've heard them described as like wolves of the sea. Yeah, absolutely. You know, their social structure and like they're really sophisticated hunting. Absolutely. Yeah. So they're they're called the wolves of the sea. They're a matriarch, like elephants. So there's a there's a really strong female presence and charge, which is why they do so well, you know, because obviously, women are better than us. Yeah. And so they have, you know, for the longest time when I was studying them, they had a there was a killer whale named Granny, who was leading the pods that I was studying, and she was thought to be over a hundred years old. Wow. Yeah. And they all of their movement patterns were to find food, you know, where to rest, where to where to play. Those were all coming from her. And so the reason why they persisted was because she had such a strong influence on them, and they're just so smart. It's it's unreal to me how each each little ecotype in its respective location has developed these incredibly smart skills to be able to, you know, flourish in their environments. It's mind blowing. Do we know if killer whale success depend on like having a really elder leader like that? Absolutely. Yeah. Yep. She she would lead them everywhere. Well, that's incredible, too, because if you think about how much like the ocean has probably changed in a hundred years and she's been adapting and learning and finding new ways and new avenues to like succeed, it's pretty incredible. And like that speaks to their intelligence. Absolutely. Yeah. And they would. I mean, when unfortunately, when she passed or when other strong female presences pass, it's a little chaotic for them because they're they're kind of lost. But they learn things before we do. You know, there's I'll try to keep it brief. But there's there's people that study sharks in shallow water that flip the sharks upside down because if they don't have water going through their gills, their body just sort of says, OK, chill out, we're just going to kind of go to sleep. Right. And then there was a report of a killer whale praying on a great white shark and the killer whale had the great white in its mouth and the great white was upside down. And so they started to look into it more and they found out that killer whales will prey on like stingrays. And when they go to to attack the stingray, they actually go upside down. They grab the stingray, they write themselves. And now the stingray is upside down. The body goes to sleep. There's relatively no chance of it hurting the killer whale. So they figured it out before we do. I mean, they talk when they're under the water and there's a situation coming up where they want to pray or they want to do something, eat something, they talk to one another. They communicate. It's insane. And they adjust to whatever situation is going on. And then they they end up being successful. It's really incredible to see. How much do we know about like, I mean, I don't know if this is precisely your area of expertise, but like, how much do we know about how specifically they communicate? I mean, obviously, you know, whale songs and all that. But like, can we parse out what they're saying to each other to a degree? I think we can. I think we can start to attribute certain calls to certain behaviors. And so now there's scientists that can actually listen to hydrophones and they can say, oh, that's that's L pod, you know, they're using their weird dialect. So they've got little interesting characteristics and ticks that are different. Then it's really it's really interesting because it looks just like what we look like. So if we if we, you know, subject a certain plastic to this machine, we use, we get a signal, right? And I can tell you, I can look at a signal and say that's HGPE or that's PET or styrofoam. And so they can listen to a hydrophone call of a killer whale and say, oh, yeah, that's L pod, that's J pod, that's K pod. And just based on that same looking thing on the on the research instrument. So yeah, they can usually tell they've got little dialects. It's really just I mean, and then sometimes they'll get together and they'll face each other, you know, every like five years they do this. I've never seen it. It's a bit another bummer in my life, but to pause at coexist in the same area. Well, we'll come together after a long time and face each other and just talk. There's just a bunch of talk. And then after that, they start to get really close to one another and touch fins and communicate that way. It's just it's they're just catching up. You know, they're just having a chat, a whale Congress or something. Absolutely. And it's really I mean, it's not just one sound. It's a bunch of different sounds. So they're communicating with one another. It's it's the most amazing thing ever. And there's still so much we don't know about like just that interaction in general, right? We have no idea. We don't know what happens. You know, I work with them for, you know, I've been on the water with them a lot. Yeah. And I've never seen that happen. So I don't know why it happens every couple of years. I don't know what they're doing, but it's just so cool to hear about it. You know, I've talked to others that have seen it. I'm really jealous, but it's it from them just hearing about it. It's really cool. So outside of your research and what you do on a day to day, you know, like, what are some of your hobbies? What do you do to unwind? You know, what do you enjoy outside of, you know, marine, mammal and other animal poop? Sure. OK. Well, yeah, I'm glad in my life can just be poop. But well, you know, it's OK. I respect that. Yeah. I kind of, yeah, it's good. I like to play flag football. So I play, you know, on a team called Desert Heat right now. OK. And we play in a bunch of different leagues and there it's just really fun. You know, everyone's got their own little diverse background and stress and but we're on the field and we just play together and it's a lot of fun. You get beat up and, you know, some games are good, some games are bad. But it's it's I really enjoy that it's a lot of fun. But yeah, I mean, Arizona is an awesome place to live. There's a lot of really great hiking opportunities. You can go look for snakes in the desert or you can go fishing. And I like to do all that stuff as well. It's pretty fun. Is it hard to turn off like your biologist brain when you're like going for a hike and looking at animals and stuff? Oh, yeah, that never shuts off. OK. Yeah, you cannot turn it off. Like, you're always going to be thinking scientifically. So even when I go hiking, I go with people that are that are, you know, herpetologists. So I can learn about them. Right. So my friend Scott, he's really amazing with being able to identify snakes and he's worked on projects where they milk them to try to understand the venom. So we'll go off the trail and it's just automatically you know, there's a flicker and no, there's a, you know, the species of lizard and that species of bird and that species of plant and and you study the ecosystem. So but it's really cool because you can get an appreciation for a bunch of other organisms that you would never study before. If you go anywhere with the right people, the world's a classroom, right? Right. Yeah, exactly. And you can you can apply the same skills that you use in your little niche to other niches and other species. And it's it's really an incredible. You just get such a fascination for Arizona because there's so much that it has to offer back to micro plastics. You talked in your Ked talk about how like one thing people can do is like pay attention to the material of clothes that they're buying because polyester, it's unique fibers that degrades really quickly. And that just goes down the drain and eventually ends up in the ocean. Can you think of any other like every day examples that, you know, anyone can do to like kind of curb their plastic consumption and waste? Sure. I mean, that's it's a really great question, but it's really tough because there's certain types of plastic items that are necessary, you know, if you go to a hospital, there's IV bags and syringes. Those are all very necessary uses of plastic plastic on airplanes. I'm sure that's really essential. I think the best approach to take is to just find plastics that are easily replaceable. So I, you know, I carry around bamboo utensils and a metal straw and a reusable bag because that's really easy for me to use. And, you know, I bought all that for under ten bucks, so it's doable. I think if people resist those types of plastics, they'll they'll I mean, if everyone did that, for example, United States, that would be a huge impact, you know, because it's just it's used so often, so quickly and just thrown away. And it's hard to recycle because it has food on it. So, you know, stay away from plastics that we can't recycle that are easily replaceable. If everyone did that, there would just be a wave of, you know, change in the ocean, which would be really nice. So one thing I started doing since I started talking to you was, you know, those jiff peanut butter cups? Absolutely. Yeah. So for like two years now, every day I my snack is Granny Smith apples and a peanut butter cup. Oh, you're talking my language. But like, I'd always just toss a peanut butter cup. So now I just get a big jar of peanut butter and slap it in a little Tupperware that I just wash out at the end of the day. Yeah. So small changes that I mean, you make me hungry. I owe that to you. Well, thank you. I'm honored that the big peanut butter is now in your pantry. Yeah. But that's a really great example of how easy you can do it. You know, it's just it's a little it's more cleaning because peanut butter is really tough to get out of Tupperware. But at the same time, you're reducing, you know, so much plastic. If you just accumulate that over the year, that's a lot of plastic. Oh, for sure. And there's so many opportunities do the same thing. You know, there's there's little, you know, condiment dispensers and and drinks and snacks that all come in little plastic container. So if you can buy the bigger one and just put it in Tupperware, that's a big reduction in plastic. Well, another thing that you turned me on to was like, if you go to a restaurant and they ask if you want water, say yes, but I don't need a straw. Just say you don't need a straw. Yeah. And then I'll bring you one. Yeah. Yeah. That's I think my next idea for a shirt is going to say something like allergic to straws. There you go. So that way automatically people see you and they know, you know, they'll be really confused and they can ask you about it. But I think that's awesome. Yeah. It just be, you know, respectful and nice. And right. And my favorite thing to do after that is if they're receptive to it, then sort of sit down and ask if you can talk to a manager, which is it sounds scary, but you're just going to say nice things and just say, you know, why is it possible that you guys bring out glasses of water without straws and then specifically make people request one because a lot of people don't really want one. It just comes with it. So you drink out of it. Right. And it's just habit. You put it in there. Right. You know, right. But you don't need it. I mean, necessarily it's and now I mean, I actually heard the other day that people who drink from more straws have a higher propensity to get the wrinkle lines around their mouth because you're, you know, kind of putting your lips together. Right. You're piercing your lips. Great. Yeah. Good. I like that. Stop using straws. Just get the beauty industry on board. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know that it's essential for people that are taking to go stuff. You know, you can't really have it without a lid. I get that. But I mean, even then, maybe just not ask, just keep the lid, not ask for a straw. There's just little things that you can do, but little things with how many people live in the United States or even around the world, that would make a really big difference. Huge difference. Huge difference. Like you said, you don't have to throw out your whole closet if you have poly blends, but like you make small changes and it'll, you know, that can add up to like a significant impact. Right. Right. And it's not your fault, right? It's not your fault that this clothing was created the way it is. You bought it. You know, I've even bought stuff from, from, you know, these kind of workout stores and, and worn it and realized later that it's polyester. But it feels good. It breathes well. It's good for exercise. You don't sweat as much. Or if you do sweat, it holds on to it. It's good. So, but and it's not like the washing machine is equipped to be able to pull all that stuff out or the dryer is equipped to pull all that stuff out. So you kind of just have to, you know, pick your battles, but just little by little, you know, make small changes and, you know, don't break your budget, don't throw out your closet, but, you know, be more aware of it, talk to people about it because it's not like a lot of people do it on purpose. They just don't know. Exactly. And that's, it's a great opportunity to educate people. So in terms of science communication, what are some challenges with that and why do you think it's so important to like convey these type of even just small steps people can take to reduce plastic pollution? Science is really cool and it has its own jargon and sometimes the jargon is really difficult for other people to understand. So we're kind of taught when we're writing and when we're, you know, communicating to speak in this in this one jargon. And it's great for that community. It's great for grants. It's great for publications. It's not great for talking to, you know, the public. Right. And I mean this goes for any industry, any job that you want to be able to communicate what you do and why it's important. And one of the shortcomings right now, the science community is that we're not the best at relaying really delicate specific information to people that aren't really scientifically trained. And that to me is such a loss because there's so much to learn. There's so much to communicate. And if we're not able to do that, then it's so much is wasted because people don't understand it or care about it. I think that's probably part of the reason why, you know, some, some things are challenged, you know, by the public. There's a lot of controversy around certain things. And I think it's just, it's not because they're, they're refusing to accept it. I mean, maybe that's part of it. But the other part is that maybe we aren't spelling it out in a way that's easy for them to understand. So, you know, it's up to us to create more opportunities to be able to communicate this stuff and get people interested and excited. And I think really so much of that lies in working with kids because kids are sponges and they're just not tainted by anything. They're just so open. And some of the most challenging questions I've ever received were from children, not from PhDs. Right. Yeah, I had one kid that asked me, I think she was five. She asked me if killer whales drank water and my brain just shut down for like 30 minutes. I mean, I don't know. I just kind of looked off in the distance and, and just wondered what I was doing with myself. Wait, so can you answer that question though, because now I want to know. Okay. So I think they, they, there's processes by which animals in the ocean, especially marine mammals, can get water. A lot of it can come from their prey. Okay. So their prey might be able to, you know, take in salt water and get the, the H2O. Sure. Yeah. But I don't want to ever be asked that. If I'm asked that during my defense, I might fail my PhD. So hopefully she's not there and asking that question. But at the same time, I adore her for thinking that way. And it's just so reflective of the fact that sure, you don't have to be trained in all this stuff, but you can still have a perspective that's so appreciated and incredible because, you know, you're thinking and you're curious. And every time I get sad because of research or because, you know, you're, it's, it's a difficult lifestyle. You know, go talk to a group of kids and it just fills my batter. It's, I mean, they're, they're awesome. And, and, you know, ASU has so many cool events where we can connect to the public and I can have them look at whale poop and, and dig for microplastics. And it's just so cool to see how people can connect to it and, you know, carry the message forward. So if there's one thing you want people listening right now to know about your work, what would it be? You can make a difference that just you being aware of your lifestyle, maybe making one small change. That's a huge difference. It might be small to you. It's big to the organisms in the ocean. And, and if you talk to people, if you, if you change your lifestyle, tell someone about it. Tell your family, you know, tell your friends, maybe they'll start doing it to get your kids excited and especially locally in Arizona, you know, you can study the ocean and just be here. You can still be interested in the ocean. You still make an impact on the ocean. So no matter where you are on that planet, you really, it's impossible not to have some sort of impact on the ocean and vice versa. So I think that if my one message would be to just, you know, be aware of these things and tell people about it if you make a change and help be part of this huge wave.