 everybody. And welcome to No Summary, Golden Threads online conversations with artists who don't fit in the books. For those of you who don't know Golden, it is the first US theater company devoted to Middle Eastern artists and stories, and was founded by playwright and director Taranje Ghizarian in 1926. Thank you, Taranje. My name is Catherine Corey, she her, and I am joining from the island of Manhattan, land of the Lenape people. And I would like to take a moment here to acknowledge the people of the land on which Golden Thread is located, the multiple Oloni tribes. Despite the atrocities of colonization and genocide, native communities persist in active and efforts to preserve and revive their culture. Golden Thread is driven by a desire to expand this land acknowledgement statement of occupation in the Middle East, the refugee crisis, and the displaced populations, whether we are immigrants displaced by political or economic events or US born, for one or more generations, we all appreciate the human connection to the land. No Summary program is in its fourth season this year. In this new season, the program embarks on a virtual tour to universities across the nation, bringing Golden Threads conversations with artists who don't fit in a box to theater and arts classes. Today, episode two, Mina playwrights on storytelling with University of Washington and Cal Poly Theater students. This episode of No Summary brings together a panel of Mina playwrights who are writing powerful stories for US audiences and using their platforms to shed light on the experiences of underrepresented communities. We'll talk about the creative process of playwriting, the challenges and opportunities of bringing diverse stories to the stage and the impact that these stories can have on audiences. Today's panelists whom I will introduce shortly are playwrights Yusuf El-Gindy, Denal Ibrahim, and Heddi Pebal. These writers will share their experiences, discuss the significance of storytelling in Mina cultures, and reflect on the ways in which their work has contributed to the broader discourse on race, power, and representation in the United States. Before I introduce the writers and you dive into our conversation, I would like to take a moment to welcome guests who are joining here in the Zoom room, but also those tuning in via live stream on HowlRound. Those here with us, please feel free to utilize the chat function to push your comments and questions. And later on, I'll ask everybody to turn on their cameras if they are so inclined. But I'm especially happy to welcome the students of Mina American Theater class at California Polytechnic University, designed and taught by Professor Halabaki to imagine how Mina Theater can contribute to a more inclusive American culture and a plays and styles drama class at the University of Washington taught by Mona Merri, who has focused the course on topics related to race, ethnicity, and identity representation by examining the works of playwrights from the Mina region alongside modern and contemporary Western texts. Now, I'm pleased to introduce our playwright panelists. Yusef El-Gindy, born in Egypt, raised in London, and now based in Seattle, Yusef's work frequently examines the collision of ethnicities, cultures and politics that face Arab Americans and Muslim Americans. His plays have been produced at Marin Theater Company, ACT in Seattle, and at the Denver Center for the Performing Arts, also at Portland Center Stage. He is the recipient of many honors, including the Steinberg ATCA New Play Award, LA Weekly's Excellence in Playwriting Award, and the Middle East America Distinguished Playwright Award. Eddie Tabal is a New York City-based writer and actor who was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. His plays have been presented at Berkeley Rep's Ground Floor Program. He has been a playwright's realm semi-finalist and his most recent play, Christina et Maria et Leonis is an artist's advancing cultural change commission from the North Theater and Pop Culture Collaborative. As an actor, Eddie appeared in the Vagrant Trilogy at the Public Theater, English at the Atlantic Theater, winner of an Obie Award and the Wuseel Ortel nomination, and on television he played Amir al-Raisani on NBC's The Brave. Denmo Ibrahim is an American playwright and actor of Egyptian descent. Her plays have been part of the Bay Area Playwrights Festival produced at the Marin Theater Company and at Golden Thread. Her audio immersive book, Zainab's Night of Destiny, has engaged thousands of elementary and middle school students in Louisville, Kentucky. I really must, I really must experience that demo. As an actor, she has appeared at Berkeley Repertory Theater, American Conservatory Theater, the Old Globe, Seattle Rep, Marin Theater Company and Cal Shakespeare. Denmo is a proud resident artist of Golden Thread and the Steering Committee member of the MENA Theater Makers Alliance, Menatma. Welcome, all three of you. I'm so thrilled to be in a room with you, even if it's virtual. And everybody, you are welcome to learn more about these amazing artists from their bios, which are in the chat. Okay, here we are. I want to ask a few questions. I just want to throw them out to all three of you. Okay. And get the conversation started before we tap into these Middle Eastern theater classes. I'm so excited to hear what the students would like to know. But first of all, I think it would be great if we could get a little background on y'all, right? A little bit of where you came from, how you got started writing. One thing that I'm a little bit curious about, if you could tell us more about your background, is I think that all of you, at one time and now have been and are actors. And so what interests me, and I'm the thing I'm curious about, is how, if studying acting and working as a professional actor is one of the things that led you to tell your own stories in place. So I'm curious about that. And I would like to start with Heidi Tabal. Hi, everyone. How are you? Hi, Catherine. It's so good to see you. Yeah, I think, you know, I think I used to be afraid of it. I remember being at Sundance. Remember the Sundance Theater program. It was maybe 10, 11 years ago. And I remember, you know, like writers are going, you know, write new pages and come back. And I was like, oh, I can't do that. And then, you know, I think at a certain point, you get a nagging sensation of telling you want to tell something. And then you kind of go, oh, I think I like it. And you kind of get a bit of good feedback. And then you say, oh, I think I do want to do this. I think being an actor was was the end for me because I was in so many development rooms. I've been in readings, use of readings and like, you know, many, many other opportunities. And so seeing, I think it was it was it was mind opening to be able to do it after having been on the speaking side of it. And also, I do experience the advantages of it. Because you're an actor, you kind of, you know, you can you somehow play them all in your head out loud when you write, if that's your process. But also the disadvantages of it, which is, I feel like sometimes as writers, we write for our sensibility as as actors. And so sometimes that does stand in the way because there's something that I think writers we don't act do, which is they just put the words and they go, Okay, someone will figure it out. And I can never I can't put myself in a situation where I'm like, Oh, someone else will figure it out. I feel like I have to figure it out performance wise. So that kind of gets in the way sometimes. That is really interesting. Thank you for sharing that. That is great. Yeah. Denmo, your thoughts. Yeah, I think it's a it's a really interesting pathway actor to writer in the Mina space in particular. Because I think, you know, you know, for our generation, there were no works. So, you know, I went to conservatory undergrad, you know, I started with a class of 60 and graduated with a class of 11. And then I did graduate work in physical theater. And I had spent and then I studied in Europe. And I, you know, it's been almost a decade crafting working on the craft and developing how do you audition and how do you be good in the room and how do you analyze a script? And at the end of the day, your work was always measured by the role you had permission to play. And I think that's just something we don't really talk a lot about in the acting world is, you know, no matter how how established, how much you train, how much you love it, you know, you can't act. You can't just invent that unless you decide to invent that. And I think that's where a lot of writers kind of come into the room, you know, I was getting cast in roles that felt were very limiting to the kinds of experiences, the kinds of stories I wanted to tell. And to be completely honest, I wasn't coming from a place of I want to tell me in a stories. No, I was just coming from a place of I want to have a full journey on stage. And because of the way I look, I wasn't really being cast in the characters that were the most well written. So I think for me, I was just really longing to play on stage. And so writing felt like this sort of like, you know, step child thing of like, I have to have a relationship with writing, but I'm not really a writer. And I had said that for so long. I'm not a writer. And I realized, oh, you know, it took me a long time to realize that writing is thinking and and like good writing is clear thinking. And and eventually it just becomes about stories. And it was very interesting to see, you know, I had been a part of a theater company and it was a devised company. We spent five years developing new work to an ensemble. So it wasn't a personal story, but it was the sort of actor creator world. And when I sort of left that space, I gave myself this challenge of something I had never done, which is write a solo show. I had been in all these ensembles. I had never done a solo work. And my first piece was Baba. And that was a really, I think, terrifying experience because, you know, I had set myself up to say, I want to do a solo show, but about what? And I spoke with a mentor. And he said, you know, what's a story you would never want to tell? And my face fell. And he said, whatever that was, that's it. And I just gave me the chills. And that was really my entry into why play writing, why storytelling. And I really held on to that as a momentum in the writing world. Wonderful. And it's interesting too, that you just said that in your graduate program, you were in a physical based acting program. Because when I read Baba, which I finally did just a week or so ago, it's so physical. I mean, the physical life of Baba is so magical. And now that makes sense that your after training would have played into your creation of that piece. Yeah. But Yusuf El-Gindy, you did my class and you were brilliant. And they adored you. But you made a surprising comment at one point. Because it's an acting class that I put together at the Experimental Theatre Wing to which I invite playwrights to interact with the students and read their work. They read their work. And you revealed something I did not know, which was you had been an actor. Yes, a little bit about how you got from one to the other. I just want to clarify the audio you heard while we were waiting to come on. It was because I need my cat fix. It was look at this little cutie cat. Listen, it's just the you want my soul? You want my own loyalty? I'll give you anything that you can just tell your I just I'm sorry, I need I thought I need to be inspired before I come to this class and cats just do it to me. Must be the Egyptian Egyptian in me and I think you just I think you just wish you had written that. Yes. Yes, it'll it'll filter into my work somehow. So I did start off as an act. By the way, before I forget demo, I've heard many good things. I'm here at Fort Worth at at amphibian stage and people say many or say many good things about Baba. Somebody was saying they were in tears. And so congratulations on the play. So I did start off as an actor. I wanted to be an actor. I think I've told the synagogue many times that, you know, I was passionate about I sort of I was more of a poet and I sort of wrote a couple of plays. And and I was going to audition for six acting schools in the States. And and then I just thought, well, let me as a backup plan also submit something to a playwright something for playwriting. And before I went, I had a tarot card reading that said, you're going to be a writer, 90% and an actor 10%. And I said, no, no, no, you've got that wrong. I'm going to I'm going to be a an actor and then maybe 10% I'll just write it on site. And so I went to the and I auditioned and I got rejected by all six acting schools. And I got accepted into the writing playwriting school, you know. And I was going, what the hell? I'm and I felt very, I thought I'm going to be among students who are passionate about writing this graduate level, you know, and and what do I know about writing? And so I did continue to act and I continued to act and think of myself as an actor up until my mid 30s. And then for various reasons, I just, you know, stopped the acting. I made a short film and I thought, well, I'll go into cinema. And then I that I didn't really enjoy that experience. And I kind of left playwriting my late late 30s. I just said, well, that's that's all I can do. But acting, sure, acting, I think anybody who tests who goes from acting to writing that that figures in absolutely into the writing process, because, you know, as as with that experience, when I am thinking of when I'm writing, I am thinking where my act is on stage. What's happening? What are they touching? What are they seeing? What's going on physically? Have I are they talking because I can be a bit wordy? So what what are they doing? Are they, you know, sometimes people just sit and talk? Yes. But, you know, what's in their hands? So that is that all came. And when they go off stage, you know, have I given them enough time to transition into their. So all that is very, very useful. It's not the only route into writing. I know of several playwrights who were never actors, but it has helped me. So and I've noticed you said I noticed in reading your place, how precise and full you are in stage directions about what the physical involvement of the actor is in each and every scene. So I know exactly what you're talking about. Let's move on just a little bit to talk about what it may be a little bit what your experience of being a playwright, a storyteller of Middle Eastern origin. You know, I mean, each of you is in a different place in terms of your relationship to the United States, right? You said you came here years ago, right? And and and and had you came for graduate school and you have decided to stay and then while you were born here, correct? So, you know, we're all at different places in terms of our our place in the diaspora. And I'm just, you know, wondering for each of you and we'll start with you set this time on how your storytelling reflects your experience of having migrated and being part of this community. Yeah, could you talk a little bit about that? I think as Denmo mentioned that there was a time it was desert, a wilderness of no representation. I mean, it was quite the absence of representation is quite shocking. It wasn't even the occasional thing that bubbled up. There was nothing. And so when I sent out my stories, I don't think there was even a sort of there was nothing to register. You know, it's like why why are we paying attention to your story? I mean, it's not relevant to anything because nothing in the culture talked about us and when we were talked about was always negatively. So I grew up very much without that. And it's only my 40s. I mean, imagine going through your whole life with no seeing no representation, knowing the things you write will not be done. And thank God for golden thread productions because literally to range, I when I finally got on the computer, when I finally got on the, yes, way back in the dinosaur area, I finally got the computer and I plugged it. I finally got on the internet in 1999. I always say 2000 and to launch this note was 1999. And I typed in Arab American theater. And a couple of theaters popped up. The I think I forget to call the Arab theatrical guild in Dearborn, Dearborn, Michigan and golden thread productions. I wrote to both of them and both of them said, yeah, send me stuff. I only had one production with because it really wasn't a theater person. But to range was like, yes, send me your stuff. And that was send me more. And really, because as a writer, you have to practice whatever craft you decide, you cannot learn and grow as a writer or an actor or anything, unless you're practicing your craft. It's all very well to sit and write your plays alone, you know, but you have to practice and to range gave me the platform to really find my voice and to really plug into that. And later, really, it was it was golden thread really was a lifesaver. Then later Silk Road rising came along. And there was more and more interest. So sorry, you had a very specific question. I think I danced around it. No, actually, that is that is really what I wanted to know. I guess it has to do with it has to do with not only the lack of representation that you were encountering, but also what you came from. In other words, what we come from influences our storytelling. Yes, yes, it was weird. And I'll finish right now so we can move on. But it's just it's it's you know, it's like when you find your voice, you look back and realize how invisible you were rendered for so long. And then it just things just come pouring out. And so yeah, it was a yeah, thank God for golden thread. No kidding. No kidding. Andy, what can you add to that? Interesting. I had a similar different journey, right? I came here when I was 20. And so I came as an adult. I was born and raised in Beirut. I'm from Lebanon. And so it took me 15 years to realize I'm an immigrant and not an Arab American. And to realize that it's such a different experience because I was not here at 9 after 9 11. I did not experience a shift in identity. And so I was kind of born and raised in the old world with the language and with with with it's it's it's pretty different. And so I think to answer your question, Catherine, if about that relationship between where we're from and the theater, I'm discovering how much my relationship to storytelling here is based on being an immigrant in the sense that I find that I'm the Arab American stories tell me a story that isn't mine. And I love to see it. And then I feel that like I tell a story that is not necessarily one that Arab Americans have access to. And I think I think that, you know, that kind of richness in what we do, you know, stories by immigrants, stories by people who came here when there were four stories by people who came here when who were born here is very interesting. And it's, and it's also, I think also with the with with with the incredible speed of technology and also like kind of the world becoming kind of one and not really like I feel like there's a lot of international, there's the conversation with the stories internationally is becoming a bit more fluid and quicker. But so that's on like kind of the on a macro level on a micro level in terms of storytelling. I think, you know, Catherine and I talk a lot about that, which is I was never, I never had a need to affirm my identity in the sense that against like the white kind of American, you know, kind of erasing narrative that a lot of Arab Americans have experienced because they were born and raised here. I kind of ran away from mine. And so it's very interesting to be here as a storyteller and and kind of I think I'm also interested in the ugliness of where we come from sometimes and and also the beauty. And so I think I find myself writing about that ugliness and writing about that beauty. And I find myself having conversations with non Americans, Arab Americans and immigrants, as well as people who never left. So it's that kind of, you know, I think it's there. And, you know, I just want to point out one thing that I know about your work is that you are definitely writing from a different perspective than perhaps Denmark would for another writer who was born and raised in the United States. However, you definitely address the intersection of the culture you come from in the one you're in now. And maybe there'll be a moment in a few minutes when we could talk a little bit more about that because you have perspectives on those connections and those challenges that others of us don't necessarily have. Thank you. Talk for a minute about, yeah, how, you know, your story telling reflects your experience of being the child of immigrants, which I totally relate to. Yeah, I mean, I think in the process of writing and starting with family, it gave me the opportunity to understand more of what that means. Like in my experience and also being raised by a single mother, you know, that there is this really strong sense of duality of switching. And, you know, they switch to be sort of like a part of the American mainstream, and they switch back to sort of be at home and that you grow up as a kid learning that your parent has masks and you get to understand them, you know, like in a lot of ways, I didn't really understand what that was as a kid. It was sort of like, why is it my mom the same all the time? Why is it my dad the same all the time? And then I realized, oh, America that there is a construct here and they don't belong. And so they are literally always pitching. They are always pitching. And I think especially during my mom's time, which was the 70s and 80s in Manhattan, that that there was this other layer of being sort of like, you know, is out of, you know, she was, you know, fetishized as a as a woman, a young woman and also work, you know, a financial person in Manhattan. There was this really sort of sense that she didn't really fit in any of the spheres. And I think, you know, it's interesting, like for me, I've never outwardly been a political person. And yet, when I started writing and really sort of centering in on some of the questions I had for myself, I found that so much of it had to do with the Arab identity in America. And it's sort of erasure as had to you were sort of saying that is such a big part of it, or or at least for like the Middle Eastern identity to be able to blend. And, you know, like my brother and I didn't learn Arabic on purpose in order to blend. And yet, you know, all of my family lives in Cairo. So we really don't have anyone here. And so as a kid, there was this sense of going back and forth to Cairo as a kid, you know, we live near the pyramids. We also live, you know, by the by the sea. And so we had this like extreme experience of like going, it felt back in time. And then also coming to this, you know, to living in like Princeton, New Jersey, where it was like a really sort of elite situation. And, you know, for heat, you know, I would say I learned that in America, the religion is money. In Egypt, the religion is, you know, something, you know, ancient and holy. And it's part of, you know, Islam. And so there was this really in the very beginning, I was sort of trying to figure out what are these different values in America? The value is individuality in Egypt. There's real sense of community beyond connection actually, like we have each other, we have each other, you know. So I've been fascinated by someone as a child of that being sort of straddling these two worlds and really feeling that sort of a fluency, I guess, on being outside and inside both. You said, do you feel that you are straddling two worlds or did you or have you along the way? You're on mute. You said you're muted. You know, sometimes I'm muted. Sometimes I'm unmuted and you're listening to me listening to cat videos. You know, it's just one of those days. So yes, no, well, you know, I'm sort of straddling three worlds because I, you know, when NASA came along, he nationalized a bunch of companies and including my fathers. And so we had to, we moved to England to start again. And I was there really, I mean, I went back to when I was 18, I left, I was in England, I was three, went back when I was 18 back to Cairo and did my undergraduate degree at the American University in Cairo and then came for my graduate studies here. In the States. And so, and then somewhere in the mid 80s, I had to decide, well, do I want to go back to England and kind of pick up where I left off or, you know, I sort of chose the road less traveled. So it's really three cultures that I'm, I'm dealing with. And actually, given that my formative years were spent in England, you know, there's this weird thing in my, where the sensibilities and sort of slight English sensibility. And sometimes I have to explain the tone and sensibility, even though it took me about five, six years to be able to write American characters without hearing British, you know, of just, you know, occasionally a little British is a little, you know, will a Brit saying or something will pop up, and somebody will correct me. So that's weird. And but yeah, so there is a lot of straddling of cultures. And you know, we go back after I got my green card when and after Nasser left family, a lot of family moved back and I would go back every year for at least a month. So yes, yes. And you're right. I mean, in Egypt. Anyway, that's not the subject. But and I do envy sometimes I envy people who were just born and raised in one country. I envy them for the ease with which language, you know, that, you know, I have adopted a language and I have adopted a sensibility, the American sensibility, I've adopted the American language. I had to learn that I had to learn how you know, people speak. And so I kind of envy, I can kind of hear the difference with some playwrights where they're kind of swimming in the language, where I'm kind of, you know, I'm sort of, I'm in a different flow and sort of negotiating with the language a little bit. So so interesting. Yes. Well, the first time I met you, you said I was just sort of taken aback by your accent, which actually is not as strong as it was 10 years ago. Yeah, well, I don't know if that's good or bad. I'm hoping by my 80s, I will have written my American accent will have just you know, okay, all right, fair enough, fair enough. I want to ask one more question of y'all before we bring the students in because I'm eager to hear their questions. But I think one of the things that's been sort of running around in my mind is what the responses to these stories that you are compelled to tell what I don't just mean audience responses, although that's interesting too, but responses from the community responses from your collaborators, whoever whichever director you're working with the actors. I'm just curious what you run into good and bad or hard and easy when you are working on a new play that is coming from a pretty personal place for you. You said you're you're not on mute now so I'd like you to just start. Oh, okay. You know, what am I what is the reaction of the people I collaborate with plays? I mean, it's, you know, over the years, it's it's the relationship. I've had, you know, in the very beginning, as an Arab American friend of mine said, you know, use of the problem is your writing plays for actors who don't yet exist. So what was happening in the early 2000s were actors who were not at least in the center acting these roles. And so there was a lot of explanation and a lot of, you know, trying to plug them in. And there's still it's still, you know, we once have 3,000 points. And, you know, even still today, there's there was a production within the last five years, but you know, what the costume designer was not of Middle Eastern center, and they were just offering things. I was going no, you know, or or that's not it. That's sort of Moroccan. That's not Egyptian. Or, you know, there's assumption that the woman would be veiled. I'm going, well, no, not necessarily necessarily be veiled. And so sometimes as you're in explanation mode, and then sometimes you do collaborate. And I love the fact when I can collaborate with non Middle Eastern people as well, because then you're kind of everybody's gathering to investigate a culture. And it's it's a wonderful explanation for everyone. Everyone's going on an adventure. So I love that too. But sometimes if you get just the right actor, who understands those mannerisms, who understands where I'm coming from with the character, it's a relief. Of course, definitely. Patty, what's been your experience? Participants to unmute themselves. Sorry. Yeah. Everyone thinks I'm a genius. That's my experience. No, I'm joking. No, well, basically, look, my experience is interesting in the sense that I think when when we I think that the thing that I get is. Oh, this is an interesting angle on what we're doing here in the States. That's what I kind of get, which makes me very happy, because I think I'm trying to do that to kind of look at the US from the outside from from from from our perspective, because I mean, I have been an audience member a lot of times in the States and the amount of times Americans of all kinds write about the, you know, foreign characters is staggering. And it's it's interesting for me right now to kind of do the opposite and see the language and see the the music. I write a lot based on music and to see like a lot of that to see all that to see the politics from kind of a global perspective. And I think it resonates in the room. So so that's maybe the most common reaction that I get. It's it's usually one of, oh, I feel like I was taken to Beirut or I was taken to the Middle East, which is really, really great, you know, because of the sounds and the smells and all the sensory things that and and to your point, Yusuf, I mean, I I'm having a similar problem right now, which is there aren't a lot of actors that I know. And please, if you know them, please introduce me to them who are who speak and live Arabic and work in the US, right? Like there are tremendous actors here. But then, you know, the language is not there. And it's, you know, and it's when you write bilingually for, you know, it's sometimes hard to find those actors even now. And, you know, like, especially if an older generation, because, like, you know, I know so many Arabic speaking 28 year olds who are working and are fantastic actors. But then when you go up the age, I meet the the the scarcity that you're talking about in the early 2000s. When I'm looking for someone who's a bit older, who, let's say, can do a flawless Iraqi accent. So it's it's one of those things. So I think that's what I don't know. I answer the question. I did. Well, that is so interesting to me personally, because it inspires me. You know how my mind works and it inspires me to think about how we can bring more Arabic speaking actors, wonderful actors of a certain age together with writers who usually see where I'm going with this, right? Hundred percent. I know you're always going to program. You're always starting something that will solve something which I love about you. But also the other thing is you've done a lot of international work and these actors obviously exist in the Middle East. But then you but then there's the problem of visas and buying them and money. And so it's like, you know, again. Absolutely. Yeah, of course, of course. Denmo, just going over to you and wondering what your experience I mean, you've been a part of Golden Thread for a while now and and you've been surrounded by writers and actors and directors from the community. And I'm wondering, you know, what has been your experience from collaborators, from local audiences, et cetera, from people in the community to the themes and in the stories that you tell? Unmute Denmo. Great. Oh, great. There you are. Yeah, I think. You know, it's been. It's been really a journey. I mean, my first piece for Baba was about Muhammad, who is like immigrant, immigrant all the way, you know? And so the sense of like, this is not you don't you this this guy is not your every day Joe was sort of really front and center. And I think one of the things that's successful about that piece is very soon, you know, the accent. The sort of like immigrant persona archetype is transcended. And we're like, oh, no, actually, this is my dad. This is my friend. I know this guy. This guy is me. And in my, you know, my last piece. You know, that was sort of centered around Arab Spring, you know, where it was sort of centered around a brother or sister dealing with a funeral. You know, their brother or sister relationship is first. And their sort of cultural baggage is sort of second. And I think that that really resonates with people because they're like, I have a brother, I have a sister, I have a family. And, and, you know, I think people come to the theater with Mina in particular and think there's going to be a whole lot of political stuff and point of views and teaching about religion or something like that. Like it's going to be, you know, some kind of like political message. And what, you know, in my work, just because I'm not really coming at it at that lens, I, I, I think there is a real sort of sense of like warmth and love for what people don't even realize that they've othered, you know, that they've distanced from and that that really melts. I mean, we, you know, in San Francisco, where I was based for 18 years, you know, many people would say they're very liberal and open, et cetera. And then, you know, you kind of discover I think sometimes when you're watching a play with a character like Muhammad in Baba, that there's a real sort of, there are still even the most liberal of us have our judgments and biases. Of course, we're human. Why wouldn't we? So there's no problem with that. But I think, I think some of the feedback I've received is, is how, how we use the sort of the culture or the religion or the sense of like the immigrant, the outsider as a medium to connect with the parts of us that we've also ostracized. And isn't like, that's, I mean, that's, that's the money right there. That's like why we go to the theater. That's why artists are doing the thing, you know? Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I'm just gonna pause now, just to say, first of all, I wanna put out a reminder for those, you know, tuning in now that who we are and what we're doing here today, which is we're in conversation and no summary of golden thread online conversation with artists who don't fit in the box. And we are here in conversation with playwrights Yusuf El-Gindy, Daniel Ibrahim and Javi Tabal. And I, at this point, I would really like to invite questions from the students at Cal Poly and University of Washington. So Hala and Munna, if you can perhaps, you know, let us know which of your students have a particular question they'd like to ask either of all the panelists or of one in particular. Yes, sure. But I think I will leave the room a little bit for Hala. The students want to leave it at this moment. Hala, would you guys stop by your students? Sure, thank you so much, Munna. Yeah, we do have one question here. Baxter, take your way. Hello, my name is Baxter. I'm a fourth year Mechanical Engineering major. And then I have a question for Hali Tabal about the remnants, Munna. So I just finished that play this weekend and I really loved the intellectual discussions that were weaved in about like the makers of history versus the participants of history and like whether there's a right or a wrong in the moment. And I also really loved how you weaved in the artist Amkabum and the song Alec Tabal. And I was wondering what your inspiration was for making that such an integral part of that play. Well, thank you for reading the play, first of all, and for reading it so deeply. And thank you for your question. I think it's funny sometimes, you know, the theater takes 5,000 years to be made. I started writing this play six millennia ago. And there are, you know, you kind of forget what made you write something. I mean, you're just making me think about it. But there's some, I think the main drive of that piece has been, I experienced something when I listened to Um Kul Thum, right? I experienced something that is extremely hard to communicate. And because I would imagine an American listening to a very American thing would have a lot of trouble explaining that to someone who's not, right? I mean, I experienced a lot when I listened to Whitney Houston. That's my American side, right? And it's, but I can explain that to an American, but I can't explain Um Kul Thum in a lot of ways. And I think there's something about getting to know someone when you hear their music or when you hear what they listen to and how they listen to it. And Um Kul Thum particularly is one a woman, not a man, who is known deeply by a culture of 300 to 400 million people. And she is also someone who six million people went to her funeral, right? Actually more than Nasser. So she is a figure in our culture that is deeply understood by in our DNA. And when I wanted to write that play, I, the political side of the play was what happened in Abu Ghraib in 2003, 2004 when you had American soldiers who were completely untrained to do what they were supposed to do, but then were given directives very clearly to do what they were not supposed to do and were committed atrocities in the prison outside of Baghdad that are unimaginable. And so for me, I wondered what it would be like if these Americans heard our music and I wondered what it would be like if we were put in a situation that was different. Would these people have done that to each other the way they did in this play or in reality? So for me, weaving the music is basically asking the question of the what if question you hear someone else's music or you fail to. Thank you, wow. Very interesting. What a, what a, maybe it's from either class. Go ahead and jump in one now while we brainstorm. I think Cloud has a question directly related to Hadid's final say, so please go ahead Cloud, would you like to be asked a question? Oh, sorry. I hope you can hear me. Sorry, I hope you can hear me. My question is, my name is Cloud, by the way. My question is specifically from Hadid's about, I really enjoy the remnants, I think one of my favorite plays so far. I was wondering about a subject of addressing for an audience when you're writing about something culturally specific, especially controversial subjects, like nutrient intervention. How, what research and consideration do you put in when you want to address this subject to a foreign audience who may not be able to relate to it? Thank you. I think I'll rephrase your question in case others didn't hear it because I think you wrote it in the chat. So I had a, you know, you're asking what kind of research do you do about things that you're going to present to an audience that might not know about, right? And so how do you approach that? Is that right in a way? It's a very good question because one of the things that I think I'm sure, you know, Demo and Yusuf find yourself probably in the same situation is you're writing and suddenly you go, who am I writing this for? Am I writing this for Lebanese people? Am I writing this for Americans? You know, and I catch myself not knowing my audience sometimes. And so your question is really intelligent. It's a very complicated process because I guess the more I write, the more experience I get, the more I know my audience and how I want to present my work to my audience. But there are two things happening, right? On the one hand, you want to write what you know and not compromise. And on the other hand, you want to write what you know, but be able to access the audience. So in a way, you kind of have to do the research and you kind of have to put in the play and this is difficult so that you don't get expositional so that you don't get kind of, you know, bogged down by the thing that we all as, you know, BIPOC artists are always bogged down by which is explaining the basics of the thing you're talking about because no one knows it. You know, so you kind of have to be smart about when you put in the data, the information that allows people who don't know about your world to latch onto it, right? And also you kind of have to have the courage to say, listen, these people might not know about Iraq, might not know about Uncle Thune, might not know about enhanced interrogation techniques that were clearly sanctioned by the US government and you're written specifically in documents on how to torture people. But if you put what you need to put there and then you trust the things that they don't know that might be interesting to them at least emotionally, you kind of find that balanced, you know what I mean? Cause you don't want to also write a piece that is so didactic as if you're talking down to your audience, assuming they don't know, you also want to assume your audience knows. And at the end of the day, we write place to make people feel something or learn something intellectually and or emotionally. So the intellectual side of the writing is only there to serve that experience of watching characters go through something and eventually you're going to write something universal. So even if the world is not necessarily that the audience doesn't know about it, what they will know about is what the characters are going through or else you're not really doing your job. Wow, good question. Thank you so much for that. Listen, before we, I go to the chat because there are a couple of questions in the chat. Hala, I think your class needs to end at the hour. So anybody else have a particular question? We have a second question from Baxter. Hello again. Okay, this time my question is for Denmo Ibrahim. So I also read your play, Baba, this weekend. And I really loved how you created a sense of waiting in both acts of the play. And unlike waiting for Godot, there were major character developments with major endings where important stuff did happen. And so I think like, especially like you're ending up the second act where Leila and her husband, sorry, Leila and her father reunite in Egypt was very heartwarming and touching. And I was really curious because you mentioned how the play can either be like a one-person show or a two-person show. And I wanted to know a little bit more about how you would do that scene as a one-person show. Cause I'm always curious about how theater makers envision various scenes like that in the month. Well, that's a very good question. And I would probably, you know, butt that to the director to figure out. But I think the way it's written right now is it feels like a sort of opportunity available for the two-hander. But in a solo show really depending on the tone and feel of it, because there is this moment midway where the transition happens. And originally I played the role. I wrote it and then I performed it. And the transition was, it took me years to figure out how do I go from literally having a fat suit, a mustache and a wig and these glasses with this huge costume to changing into this woman on stage. So the transition moment plays with Mohammed, the actor becoming Leila Leila. And it's sort of this gorgeous moment where we're out of the play and in the play and like the audience is with you in that's maybe 30 seconds. And I mention it because I think in the solo show there could be an opportunity of hinting at that sort of duality at the end. So instead of it necessarily just being Leila playing it straight, how she would with Mohammed sort of echoed in the back, it could be Leila. In essence, we wanna see all of those people at the end. So I think your question is great. And I'd love to see that. Thank you, Denmo. Again, and actually I'm in the chat now and I'm seeing a question from Jean-Marc. And I don't know if Jean-Marc is one of the students or is joining us from someplace else. But the question is interesting and he specifically is put it in for Denmo but I'm wondering if the others had the end use of might wanna comment as well. He wrote Denmo Ibrahim Theater often provides a platform for social commentary and activism. Are there any specific social issues or narratives that you feel strongly about and strive to address through your work? I mean, I completely agree. And I think it depends on when. I think that you can't answer that in sort of as a fill in the blank. Initially, I think the issue when Baba was written and performed at that time and also it just had a production at amphibian stage a few months ago. The commentary there I think was really around what happens to the first and second generation. The sort of like right now the conversation I think in the MENA community at least for me I'll speak for myself in my mind top of mind is that the MENA identity is not on the census. We are not legally represented in America. We don't exist and that's a big frigging deal in terms of representation, funding and at the same time our community in particular is incredibly surveilled. There's a lot of surveillance. There's a lot of hate crimes and yet we don't have any kind of production or representation. So to me that's a huge thing right now. So when any MENA play gets on stage it feels like it's shedding light on a community that we are ignoring on purpose. That's one. And two, I think there is something around the idea of being silenced right now the middle if you are Middle Eastern and you're on the census you must identify as white which I think is just a really interesting thing that we need to unpack. So that's my relationship right now with a lot of the work that I want to produce and continue to explore. Very interesting. And Yusuf I think I know the answer to this but are there any political or social issues that you feel you can and should and do address in your work? You know, I'm never agenda driven when I write a play. It's always emanates from characters who are bubbling up and want to chatter away. And so the political aspect of the activism comes naturally through the drama of these people's lives. I think to the notion of the personal and political that they're separate is kind of a, I think if you can separate them you're in a privileged position. I think for a lot of people around in Egypt when I go and chat, the chatter is political. Domestic is political where we're chatting about politics and it goes seamlessly from what's happening in the family to what's happening politically to my family is politically engaged. And so the domestic and the political it occupies the same sphere. I mean, we moved, you know, our personal trajectory my family was due to political actions taken and my father had to respond. And, you know, we used to joke that whoever was in power one half of the family was in prison and the other half was, you know, doing well with that regime. So it's, you know, so the activism, the notion of and some of the criticism of my work sometimes was always being, you know, didactic or it's being this or that. And I think it's almost just the very, the temerity to bring something up, you know, was regarded as well while you're trying to address the social forces, you know that affect us all, which is weird. And there are a lot of playwrights especially also the British sensibility that I grew up with. It's of course the individual is part is interwoven into the social fabric and the political fabric. And you are going to, in talking about the individual you are talking about them politically as well. It's not an either or. So social activism is not a now I'm going to talk about this issue. I'm going to talk about these characters and naturally organically political issues are going to arise and affect. Indeed, indeed. And there's a question here from Rosa Peterson at University of Washington. And for Denmo's Baba and Yusuf's Stamp Me, how did you know you wanted the play to only include one actor? And Denmo, you've kind of talked about that a little bit already, but Yusuf, what about Stamp Me? Why is that only from the one character, the one person's perspective? I'm wondering. Well, the Stamp Me is, you know, it's a monologue. It's just a seven page, I don't know how many pages monologue, but we'll just kind of pour it out a month ago, which is, and it was really just, you know, talking about domestic, intercepting with the political. It's about somebody moving along in the immigration line to get to the immigration officer who's going to either let them in or cause trouble or please step aside. And it's all the tension, which I feel to this day, whenever I approach a, you know, even now that I have an American passport, you know, that I feel whenever I come to, and this character does not have an American passport and is trying to get into the States, is we're hearing his internal monologue as Snakes' way towards the immigration officer who will look at his passport and determine his life, determine the rest of his life, you know, that power. And just the helplessness, the rage, the internal conversations, it's like when I travel two, three months before I'm traveling, I'm having conversations with whatever immigration person I'm going to, if I'm going to England, I'm having conversations with the, you know, internally, they start, you know. And if I'm coming back to, I'm having conversations, wherever I'm having, you know, wherever I'm going. So that's where that play came from. And it's really, you know, it's border crossing, crossing international borders. I remember when the law kept saying, oh, we'll send you here, we'll send you there. And I was resisting, you know, if I think I said, well, because if you grow up with an American passport, you have no idea, no idea the privilege you have to travel, to cross borders, to get into countries. This, for most people around the country and in Egypt, the notion of getting a visa, that the humiliating hoops you have to jump through to get a visa to travel anywhere. I mean, you probably won't, you probably won't get it. And it is, and to get it, you have to provide documents. And so the notion of travel that just traveler is, is for most people around the world, it's very, very difficult. And so that's where the stamp me comes from. Yeah, got it. You know, here's another question for Denmo talked about, it's from Kyler Simons. Denmo talked about individuality in the United States and how much it is valued here. While on the contrary, Egypt has, as you said, that strong sense of community. And do any of you feel a sense of community while working in the States with other people of Middle Eastern origin? How does it make you feel having this growing community while also harnessing your own individuality? And I'm so glad that question was put in the chat because it was actually something I wanted to ask all of you, which was what it feels like to be an artist in the community having your own very strong voice, all of you, but, you know, being part of a growing, a burgeoning group in the United States, starting in a heavy, what's that like connecting with the other people in the community? You know, it's truly, I mean, to use a dumb word, it's great in the sense that like you, there's this like, like 12 years ago, right? I definitely felt more alone in terms of making theater than I do now, right? Like right now I feel Golden Thread is my community and Newer Theater is my community and the people I do plays with that I did last year, I happened to do three plays, you know, tour Middle Eastern and like, you know, are my community and just, I mean, that's, you know, the Middle Eastern, the Middle Eastern writers lab at the Lark, which is now at Playwrights Horizons is there are all these and some of them became very good friends. And so I think it's a very different game when you are not, you don't have a community. And at the same time, it is important to remember that being part of a community is not, does not mean that you erase your individuality and you have to keep fighting also for the, for your community and for people outside your community to just still see ourselves as individual artists with individual voices. And that's, and it's also very interesting to, I think we, it's great to be part of a community that I mean, just that meeting we did at Playwrights Horizons last week or two weeks ago was kind of about how we can all be so diverse within the community. So that's, you know, it all feels very good because also when you want your work produced or you want to do readings of it or when you want to find actors or there are people helping you, you're not just there talking to like, you know the artistic director of this place and that place and you're sitting there and you're starting from zero there is already, you know, groundwork that's been covered and that's what a community does. You know, so that does feel great. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Who else would like to speak to that, Yusuf? Yes, it's wonderful. I mean, I'm back when all this kind of started, you know, it was in the late 90s, 97 with Golden Thread and just more and more in the brass in New York and it was a couple of other outlets there was also a literary magazine, Mizna from Minneapolis and things were bubbling up in the late 90s and I thought, oh, this is fantastic. Finally, oh my God, finally, the 9-11 happened and I remember thinking, oh no, I hope this all doesn't get, you know silence that we don't all go, you know we can no longer, you know this wonderful renaissance that is happening but luckily, you know as happens when a group of people in this country suddenly have this negative spotlight put on them they are forced to respond. And so the artists, the poets, the player, you know, the playwrights, comedians, actors start stepping up and needing to respond. It's sort of most groups go through this. So it's lovely to have gone from the early 2000s where we were sort of like gathering the tribe, so to speak, all the disparate people from the different Mizna communities. And to this point, where it's just burgeoning and it's so wonderful, all these writers coming up and now we have actors and directors and there are some theaters who are more interested. So it's lovely to see this growth. And for, you know, now the larger community the theater community goes, oh, this is a body of work and a body of people that perhaps we now need to pay attention to where before we could be ignored because we were one or two people, you know. And now it's, we are gathered. Exactly, exactly. Denbo, any thoughts from your experience? I would just say, I still feel it's fairly nascent. You know, the Minotma has just recently been formed, Mina Theater Makers Alliance. We've had three or four convenings. So the sense of like community, it feels more like I know this person, I know this person, we gather in these small ways. But in terms of like a national organization, it still feels fairly young. And so I think as a community, and I mean on a national level, on a regional level even, I think we're still trying to find, how do we find each other and how do we get in the same room together and what do we talk about? And we have a lot of, you know, differences. I think for me, the sort of community really comes alive once the show is set and you're in a room. And, you know, you have actors and directors and designers in the playwright and you know, you're all working towards this like goal of this production. And in that way, it's sort of like a microcosm, you know, that's where it feels like community really thrives. And everyone might not even be Mina, but it has a Mina focus. So that feels really powerful. So I have a lot of hope that we'll create more opportunities for these like small communities to continue to grow as we find a way to make these like larger bridges more accessible and often. Yes. Yeah. Beautiful. So, are there any other questions that your students would like to ask? Yes. Actually, Tyler, you already asked the question. I think Lori's question related to the idea of what strength does monodrama offer, terms of advocacy, issues of mobility and identity representation. And this question is at this point, inclusive and to then more. So yeah. Okay. Is that question in the chat as well? It is in the chat as well. So, you know, the sound for me was, yeah, the sound is a bit, could you repeat that? Oh, Catherine, could you summarize the? No, because I had the same problem. That's why I was trying to find it in the chat. The sound quality one was a bit. Okay. I'm gonna move right here. Do you hear me better? Yes, yes, yes, good, good, good. So, the question of Chloe, Chloe raise your hand. Hi, Chloe. So Chloe's question relates to the idea of what does monodrama offer? What strength does monodrama offer and addressing issues of identity representation and specifically mobility and sound quality and. Okay. Demo. Oh, what does the strength of monodrama offer? Yes, okay, great. Well, before I tell you about the strength, can I tell you about the challenge? So the challenge of a monodrama is you have to have an incredible actor. You must because it is very challenging to watch one person for more than seven minutes. We just need something else, you know? And so it requires, it really requires an actor who can live and thrive and create incredible nuance without other actors. Given that, if you can have that, if you can find that, a solo show has a way of focusing in like a lens in a way that a multi-character show doesn't have. You know, you as an audience member can pop from person to person and sort of figure out the story, but it sort of feels like a microcosm in on a large scale. And I also think it's like very theatrical actually because we're not in these, you know, we don't live in vacuums, right? So to see a solo work really requires a lot of imagination and theatricality to make it feel alive. So it's not a perfect form, you know, in that way. And because of that, I think it has a lot of opportunity to sort of excite, entice, subvert your ideas of what the play is gonna be. So, yeah. Beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, I think that's- So much, Cal Poly class. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Baxter. Good to see you again. Hello. Hi. What were you going to say, Yusef? No, I was just going to reiterate. I was going to demo's points. Yes, the focus, you know, you better have a really good actor who can just play all the instruments, so to speak. So, yeah, I mean, I don't, and when I do write solo pieces, they're usually short. Like, Stamp Me is like seven pages. Six pages, one of the other. And it's, what do I like about them? I mean, I must admit the, you know, my agent over the years have gone, you know, do you have like smaller casts? And I said, well, I have three, I have a three-person play. There was a, do you have a two-person play? I said, well, let me write a two-person play. And then it's, do you have a one-person? I'm going, what do you want? What is this? It's like, so sometimes I did write a full-length one-person play collaborator. And I was thinking, oh, thank God, I have a, you know, something for my agent, I have a one-person play. But, yeah, I mean, it is challenging. I mean, with a shorter piece, you can get away with a lot, but if it's a one-person full-length, then you better have, you know, that actor better fill the room. And better, you know, because, as Demo said, you know, that's all you've got. And they're telling the story. Yeah. I thank you for that. I have one final question that I would like to just throw out to all three of you. And, you know, it's all right, you have to forgive me. This is based on personal inclinations of mine, but I am so eager to interface with our counterparts in our cultures of origin, okay? We're born and raised in the United States, but very, very connected to Lebanon. And so excited when I have the opportunity to collaborate with people over there. And I just, you know, want to throw out that in some of the work of yours that I have read and Hadi in their recent work, especially, I'm so taken with the demands of the place, but regarding language, regarding sensibility, everything from understanding of the environment to understanding of the food. I mean, and I just, you know, wanted to throw out and ask, you know, what is your interest or inclination to work with people on the other side to realize some of your work? I'm curious about it. It would be a dream to be honest. I visit Beirut often, especially that now I have a child to see my parents. And, you know, I've never really worked in the Middle East as an adult in Lebanon, but I've been back and forth and now I'm meeting some people, actually sometimes through Catherine. And there is something thrilling when you meet someone who can be the dream dramaturg on your piece or an actor who is basically the person you're looking for to play the Lebanese or the Syrian in your play. They speak the language, they have the mannerisms, they know the, they understand, you know, they understand that guy or that woman that you're writing, whatever, you know, the character. It's just, I don't, it's so hard in terms of financially and also in terms of politically, in terms of visas and mobility and all these things. I don't know, like I wish there was, I would love, they're my Beirut series, I would love to do those plays in New York and in Beirut. They all take place between both cities. And to have actors from both cities do those pieces, it would be a dream. But, you know, it's, I think also like nowadays, like I think we need to start, thinking at this level because at a certain point you go to the theater in the States, you go to the plays and you go when you go and you go and it's like there's a whole world out there. Like there's a world of people who speak different languages, have different sensibilities, live in different cities, do different kinds of theater and it's, it feels a bit like, you start feeling a bit the drudgery of it. So I think we owe it to ourselves to be international, you know? I agree completely, as you know, it's my life's work and I, you know, people have asked me like, why are you so dedicated to these exchanges? And I have to say that it makes me sad that a lot of global exchange programs are biting the dust because I can't help but feel that the American theater, if it is not part of the global conversation is gonna get left in the dust, that's sort of my worry, my concern. Anybody else wanna comment on that? I mean, I think the limitations are real in terms of an international thing. It almost feels like, can we just have some representation? Can we please just be a part of the season, please? And not make it really harder to also have in a character that's speaking Arabic and French and English. There's no way. I mean, I wrote a piece like that. I found an Egyptian man, it was the first time I could ever have a real Egyptian man in the role where English was their second language and it was so powerful, but that feels like the exception. And so, you know, I just sort of feel like in terms of priority, how do we create those relationships while we still develop the presence so that when it's time to make that sort of a main stage production, then we have developed that time in that sort of relationship, you know? Because I do think that sort of dynamic is gonna lend itself incredibly powerful to certain stories for sure. And to your point, Catherine, I think if we're not having the conversation with other countries and cities, then it sort of feels like America becomes insular, why theater? So, yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree that to both points made the bet. Yes, international. There is a whole section of the world that's just not taken into consideration terms and culturally. It's just absent in the conversations we have about culture in this country. So, yes, including that is important, but my focus and my interest is that of the immigrant, obviously because I, you know, when I was three and really I have the immigrant experience. And so my interest is in promoting and giving a platform to Arab Americans. Yes, I want to include Egyptians and Lebanese and voices from those countries. And let's bring them here and let people know that there are these other voices, but also that there are Arab Americans. I mean, we were talking about the census and how we're not, you know, so we have to be more vocal and we have to respect ourselves as Arab Americans as immigrants because unless we do, nobody else is going to pay attention to us. You know, when I'm in Egypt and I go, you know, I'm Arab American or Jewish Americans, well, there's no such thing, you know, it's like, I have to go, no, no, no. There is a whole group of people here who have a voice and it's shaped by their immigrant experience. And, you know, so there's a slight integration and a slight dismissal of the Arab American, you know, from some of these other countries in. So my passion is to promote the MENA community in the States. Great, perfect. I can't thank you all for your candor. Honestly, beautiful. And we have come to the end of our conversation. So it's my honor to thank all of you, the panelists, the students, the professors, everybody, just amazing. I wanna thank HowlRound for hosting the program. And as a reminder, all the no summary episodes are live on Golden Threads and HowlRound's websites. Thank you to Wendy Reyes, our live stream technician and hero, and to the rest of Golden Threads small, but mighty team, Michelle, Sheila, Linda, Saluna and Heather, and especially executive artistic director, Sahara Soth. Big thank you to the audiences and the people who attended today. Just letting you know that coming up next at Golden Thread, the New Threads reading series with two plays commissioned by the company. One by Adam Ashraf al-Sayegh is inspired by the story of high-profile Egyptian political prisoner, Allah Abdel Fattah, and one by Tata Khambami, inspired by the experience of the Black Panthers in Algiers. And the Reorient Festival of Short Plays in the fall, which will feature the work of one of today's speakers, Yusuf al-Gindir. And for more info, of course, visit the Golden Thread website and join the email list, okay? So you stay on top of the programs and events. So with that, lots of love to everybody. Thank you and goodbye. Bye, everyone. I love you so much and I love you. We're getting together very soon. Yes, I love it.