 Welcome everybody, back to Segal Talks here at the Markney Segal Center, at the Graduate Center in Pune. It's our last week in this incredible year of 2020 where we are hosting these talks. It's of course a very emotional year. It's also for us being so close to the new years where we hope the 2021 will be a different one. So this is an important week for us. We started out the talks in March. I think it was Taylor Mack, Kristen Martin from here, Thomas Ostermeyer from the Chaldein in Berlin and others. And this year we are closing it out. Head Bonnie Miranka from the PHA Magazine of the Journal of Performance and Art today is with us. The Al Mimete company that comes out of the Living Theatre tradition and tomorrow we have the great Norican Poetry Cafe. We have spoken with others with us. And it's been quite a ride this year. This year we spoke to over, I think, 150, 200 artists in 150 sessions from 50, 60 countries around the world. Most probably it is the only archive of a profession that archived the moment of Corona across the globe. We didn't know when we started this out. We also didn't know that it would take so long that how big the dimensions would be, but we had a feeling in the beginning that this is important. And we hear so much from politicians, virologists, economists and others. But we here at this eagle has always felt we need to hear from the artists from theater and workers from theater, practitioners and to get their insights how they create meaning for themselves and these unprecedented times. This really, really reality is a stranger and then fiction artists have been close to the right side of justice, the right side of progress as we think in this complex struggle for freedom and liberty and and what they have to say is of significance and perhaps be sure that listen to that earlier or many, many plays dealing with all the complications we are dealing with now also the ecological disaster political disasters. And then we want to just also take this moment to sank a hull round for for hosting artists been a very big commitment, and we have VJ with us here he is one of the producers and one of the, one of the makers, but makes how around what it is this beloved, I would say, online streaming service that also was created in a time that perhaps foreshadowed the significance that the digital space the screens the Skype and now of course zoom will take over the first time I use zoom in my life was when I had my first seagull talk in March. And I think how long put something together so VJ how has it been for you this year of of producing online for the theater. It's been very, very busy, and we've been so honored to have organizations like yours, and many, many other organizations, kind of using our online platform, our support. And this kind of peer produced infrastructure to have these kinds of connections and conversations and learning from each other. So that's been really, really rewarding for us to help that kind of thing. And, and really necessary thing in this moment. And I feel that you know this kind of these kinds of connections that were able to make, especially now since pandemic. You know, the ability for us, especially the global north to be connecting with artists in the global south. It's, we've done that more during the pandemic than ever before. So that's one of the kind of, like, you know, hidden kind of good things that have come out of all this. These new behaviors and connections continue on into the future. Yeah, no really, really thank you. This is an enormous contribution. I think Carol Martin and TDR the great TDR theater and drama and review. You know, she also interviewed you and showcased how a lot in a way is a new model of producing. She also is a Paris theatrical event we talk people perform themselves they talk about their work. You know their lives and it's kind of a new form a hybrid form that came out of it and I think the production model that how around created for readings to decentralize it away from the big metropolitan cities from the metropolitan supremacy also in a way you know that is a really, really, really access to the arts and people can participate around America but now also around the world I think is a great thing. So really, really wanted to say thank you and it's wonderful to have you with us. Normally we have see who is already visiting her family in the Bay areas we want to say thank you to her again. I'm going to write an email now and say where are you we can start or something but let's come to our, our guests today thank you. Thank you. We have a significant, I think, a company with us a company that came out you know spun out of the earth of legendary. A lot of that created theater of the living theater of originally from to just Malina and Julian back then how man. And, and this is a company that formed, if I understand right, also somehow in this time of Corona was keeping on a tradition so it stands for many companies meant, perhaps across the US we do not know about. We have come to a thinking about how to continue work was struggling, and who are trying to create meaning for us for audiences but also for themselves they choose to work in theater as a way of life a way of living. You know, was with that yesterday's pointed out that perhaps artists in a way of the last three members of this society this we live in this hyper capitalistic a world, everything is a commodity and so much of a commercial value what we do that artists perhaps other but it's so hard to do it's hard to be an artist it's hard to do theater anywhere in the world, but it is especially hard here in New York City, the great we of course we would have loved to have the great great dude Malina with us she had been at the single center for many, many evenings as a participant. She was acting in Franco horror plays talking about a Piscata notebooks or put participating in discussions on theater and history and politics and poetry at her moon poems often at our place, but she also came in her last years when she was in the old age and she would drive in from New Jersey to the seagull center and listen to our events and participate engaging in our discussions and she was really upset with me that I didn't create a seagull bar or a seagull cafe she said there's no place where I can go in New York. In the old days there was a bar where we go where we hang out there's nowhere I can go meet someone who I know where I feel at home and always think about that and a little bit it was always the idea of the seagull to create a community and maybe one day we have to create the new seagulls Malina Vaughn and everybody who is here has been working with her and inspired by her work so with us is the Alimita Company and and we're going to hear from them a little bit how how it is to create a theater or think about theater in the time of New York City to create a new company and so we have with us Jessica Doherty from the company Dennis who is Nuiye Li and who is the directing a lot of the work Shadow Games Malina and the great Soraya Brokeen who also directed at the seagull center and part of Japanese playwrights project so Dennis has worked with us so it's a company we are close to we had Tom Walker with us here on the seagull he gave one of I think the more really interesting and important conversations maybe for anybody was interested also inspiration to go back what he had to say he has been with the living since 1972 and this is kind of a variation and update a modulation a new form of a theater tradition that has been so significant. We had Hillary Miller who said so many ideas out of the fifties were done in living rooms in the underground became so big and important in the sixties and the sixties still having such an impact that as we said yesterday also people think why do we talk still about the sixties in the seventies talk about it because it was important so this is very close to that but it's also trying to to reinvent to recreate as Heiner Müller the great German playwright and director said about Bertolt Brecht if you use Brecht without criticizing him it's treason you should get to go to jail so you have to find new ways of doing things and it is our you know guiding model in a way you know that Brecht said new times need new forms of theater and definitely we live in different times in a new time so welcome here to the seagull talks always it's about listening very listening and when I go on and on and talk so I hope you will forgive me so Jessica Dennis shadow Soraya welcome everybody here and so where are you and let's begin with Jessica and tell us a little bit about yourself and your work what you're doing in the sure thank you for having us thank you to the seagull center and how around we've collaborated with you over the course of this year and it was really nice to feel like we had a home even in this ephemeral sort of liminal world that we live in so thanks to all of you. I'm Jessica I right now I live on Cowlitz and Clackamas land in the northwest also known as Portland Oregon with my partner Brad Hamers who's also a member of the collective right now it's about 9 11 in the morning and I came to the theater out of a documentary film perspective but I also am a performer so I started I met Judith in 2014 when they were doing the outdoor theater piece no place to hide and that's how I met all these amazing people that are here with us today and the rest of the collective that the people that would become a limite so I'm very grateful that we found each other and I'll believe in the need for human connection and how art can facilitate that I think a lot of us look at ourselves as facilitators not just actors directors or writers conduits for human growth and so it was it was a tough challenge during at the beginning of this year we really launched the collective and as a participatory theater practitioners now we can't touch people. Yeah it's such a such a different world out here and and and everything. Yeah. Let me ask Dennis before we come to the founding of the company Dennis where are you at the moment and tell us a little bit about you and your work and how you came. Yeah, I'm currently in Queens. That's where I based and originally I'm from Taiwan I joined the living theater in 2012. At the same time going after my own passion which is directing and writing plays that I think resonates with something that I care the most and after after a while I took care of Judith all the way until she passed away. And later on we decided to start this company El Limite together to continue the legacy in the somewhat different format. Yeah. So even if with my work it's it's still similar to you know what we do what we have been doing with the living theater what we are doing with El Limite. Soraya, tell us a bit about you and your work and how do you fit in this in this puzzle. I'm currently in Manhattan, where I was born and raised and actually the room where I was born and raised. Well, I mean like I came here since I was slept here. Ever since. Now it's full of stuff. Just storage. I was I was in Queens before like Dennis. So I joined the living theater in 2010. We started with this play Korah, which according to Judith was the first anarchists in the Torah. And I've been part of it ever since and joined these lovely people that I love so much, each and every one of them for with El Limite. And I've been an actress since I was 14 years old went into directing. Thank you. Thanks to Frank, and I write poetry and other things I'm a healer an Ayurvedic healer. And yeah, I think that the name the title of this company El Limite which means limitless and no limits says so much because Judith, I would tell Judith what I would have conversations in her in her bedroom. You know, on Clinton Street she I would say I want to do so many things that are just variety, you know, science are everything and she said well you can do it all you're limitless. And I think that's just so amazing that this, this is the name that we came up with. That's quite something and she really meant that you did not just say she meant that. Shadow. Sorry we have you at the, at the end of it but tell us a bit about you and your work. Where are you. Currently I'm in Las Vegas. I came back here beginning of December I was in Brooklyn prior to that this year, in hopes of actually fully launching a limited life. And then come it happened, but I come from the dance background. I'm a movement movements my special, my specialty. I start collaborate I call myself like a satellite member of living theater, because I'm always been in all my work with the living theater has always been in the West or Mexico. This was a satellite member. I started with working with with the living on 2013 at Burning Man, when they built a black box theater. And I was part of a different collective back then I was based in San Francisco, which we were doing butto under my uncle sister. And from there, I just stay in the site of a limited and I joined them towards the end of their tour of Latin America last year doing electric awakening. And ever since then I just, I'm like one of those little animal this is like clang on to the core members of the, the living theater and when this opportunity comes to launch a new theater. And I've been blessed and fortunate to be surrounded by these amazing creatives. And I'm happy to be here today. This moment with you. Thank you guys and you know, most probably I think it is we can say that since World War two it hasn't been so difficult for theater artists tough times in the 50s. I guess it depends what kind of theater artists you are. Yeah, it's true, but it was a tough time to make a living to work to form a country company right now and this time. So tell us a bit is that is the moment of the 2020 year. Is that is that connected to your to the formation of the company is it putting an imprint on you guys that would not have happened if it would be a normal complicated year. I would say first thing. The thing that COVID has taken away from us is the space the physical space. It really pushes us into thinking what are the possible alternatives with your company to survive and push us into thinking how we can embrace the technology world, because theater has a tradition of, you know, forget about what technology has advanced. We still have our space we still have our audience members, but this is the moment that, well, those things are nonexistent. How do we embrace zoom for instance how do we utilize all this platform, for instance, and when we started this company. It was only necessary in our conversation, but when we sat down all together, it became part of something integral to our conversation that we can never not talk about it. That's the first thing that we definitely, you know, share and discuss the most. Jessica you mentioned earlier you know the time of COVID and the creation of the company I mean you in a big way you were, even if you think about it before but you guys got together this year what does that mean. It means that you know if we wanted to continue the, the move to connect people to to bake participatory theater. We had to become digital. Right, so we had to embrace the social media where everyone hangs out. We had to learn how to communicate on zoom which we're still trying to perfect. You know, we ended up, you know, doing weekly zoom calls that anyone could jump in on just to make sure that we still felt connected to each other. And so we had to kind of grow a third arm. That's the first way. Because we just relied so much on being with each other. Brad and I had planned to come for a retreat, sort of, you know, workshop to be together, develop new projects, and then it turned out that we couldn't come to New York because of the travel restrictions, and then we had a meeting day required quarantine and things so even though, you know, we still want to be together. We tried and we couldn't so it's sort of, it's a, it's a test and perseverance. You know, I'll let me say also meaning like you're at the limit. And when we perform live together. A lot of the, I think real transformative moments happen when we're exhausted. We're performing for an hour or two hours at full speed, and we get really tired. That's when the real transcendent understanding comes out. And I, I like to think that this is just another one of those tests. When we go into 2021. It's not like magically it's going to go away. So, we're practicing our endurance together. And I'm really looking forward to what comes out of that exhaustion. So you talked a little bit about the spirit of the company but what is the, what's the mission, what's the mission, what do you guys want to do. And I think that I want to say that there was an exhibition that I saw on Gertrude Stein and she said that you know she was a collector and she said, collect the art that is now that is of the time. And I think that this company really represents of this time of right now. And I want to mention like there's Cyprus and Monica and Leah and Philip, who are also part of this company. Anybody else. No, that's everyone right. Yeah. And everyone has us, you know, there's no hierarchy, I feel in this company is like the first time that we all individuals have something to give and to offer. We don't just offer one thing we offer multiple things. Everyone has a skill and strength that makes unity and that their strength in this in this unity. I think it was really beautiful about the, the, the, you know, it's more about instead of being a vision it's more about the feeling of the company is that we really acknowledge each other where we are at that time. So what did you guys do this year like let's say what what kind of performances or say what what happened this year and this is basically you start out what what did you do. Well Jessica mentioned that every week we would meet up and actually every week whenever there was a talk or a conversation, we always brought something into fruition and so one of the projects that everyone was part of all over the world actually was part of us. So the, the branch of the lens of the company goes out to the whole world of whoever we've ever touched and whoever can participate. We asked everybody that was ever been part of us to write to express how they feel during COVID as a beginning, middle and ending. And everyone wrote and responded to that and out of that. Each person would, we'd start with the beginning and then the middle and then ending, and we would do a response of video response of digital response because that's all we really had. And anyhow with the audio or painting or anything. And we would respond to that right to those writings that poem that you would choose and then create something from that digitally. And then we would post it on YouTube on Instagram and that's was one of the biggest things but there were other things that were created. That you talk about as well. Right. If you look up hashtag all limit a liminal archive, you can see all of the entries from people from Brazil, Mexico, and the US and other places around the world. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's quite something. Let's talk a little bit about the idea of the legacy I under if I understood right you also out on the street so there's a pipeline in Brooklyn where you did you did something so you carry on tradition in a way that you know, you know, created before by the living so I tell us a little bit what is your idea what's the idea behind tells about this project but also is a forming founding ideas what what is that about what you're doing. So, I think, you know that the online project that we did was actually inspired by when we, when we were still spending time with Judith, we always embraced the moment that we were together such as like Passover. And this, this particular year we actually did the Passover, we have the scripture that was written adopted by Judith Molina, and we were reading it via zoom, we realized that we could create something that's ritualistic, which is always the legacy of the living that's super realistic. That breaks the quotidian live that put people into a liminal space so that you know eventually at the end of the production, you feel invigorated you gain a new energy or some sort. And that was the beginning of that project. So we were trying really experimenting on how do we incorporate the Instagram, the micro art, the mini skill art, so to speak. And for the Brooklyn pipeline project, it was really, you know, Judith, when we were still in a living theater, oftentimes we went on street to just join the protest to really stand with the people that are oftentimes or under her underrepresented. And Monica, one of our members, she has been highly involved in activist movements, especially against climate change against all those pollution, polluting companies. And when we knew this pipeline issue we instantly jump right in and say, you know what, it even it's COVID-19. This issue is affecting everybody. What is the issue? I also wasn't aware of it. What's the pipeline? It was actually a fracking gas pipeline that's going through the northern part of Brooklyn. And the gas pipeline does not benefit the Brooklyn residents. Instead, that pipeline just went through, go through the Brooklyn and then transporting the gas into I believe it's Long Island. And when National Grid was doing this project, they didn't host any town hall meeting. They didn't talk to the local residents. And we residents started to feel like, oh, maybe we're just the fixing of the repairing of the water pipeline. We didn't pay too much attention to it until when they went into the last phase of the construction, we realized that it was actually fracking gas and it's polluting the area. And the bill went high if you are National Grid users. Nobody knows anything. And we decided to know, let's collaborate with the local residents and then really try to come out to stop the construction of the pipeline. The fight is to continue. Yeah. And what's evil about it is that the pipeline runs through all the black and brown communities of Brooklyn. That's what's harsh about it. And people are being faced now with $184 million price tag of building that pipeline. And as Dennis said, that's a benefit Brooklyn, that's a benefit New York. It goes to the highest bidder of that fracked gas and New York State passed no fracking but yet they're releasing fracked gas, meaning they they transform the liquid gas into air gas so they can easily compress it and easily transport it. And Josh Fox did that documentary gas land, right, that really clearly shows the environmental impact and that has so yeah so you will continue using form of theater to raise awareness of, you know, what is And the irony of it is that it also runs through all the green spaces in those neighborhood. That's what's mind blowing about it, not only the green spaces, the schools, the churches, everything that will people gather. It seems like it's almost targeted by it, you know, and that's what's really really like almost incomprehensible why we're even doing this, you know, I mean, don't the companies call these areas that they plan to go through sacrifice zones or something. So the name of the project is or some of the languages Brooklyn is not a sacrifice zone, you know, don't come through here. And I think shadow you filmed a one of the performances that were done right on a moving. That was different that we also have a mobile unit that Monica had brought up to the, to the collective. It's a platform that's attached to four bikes. And we've used that to promote the pipeline as well to against the pipeline and also we also use that for anti ice performances. The pipeline was done, we actually took it apart and took it to the Brooklyn Detention Center and perform in front of the of the extension center. That's where you did performances and that's what the detention centers and really it's quite quite remarkable I would not have known about that pipeline actually I've never seen any article about it. And funny things like nobody knew about it. People that live underneath the pipeline did not know about it until we start performing and stop putting all those banners and flyers. When we talk about theater and new forms, you know, of course there is the famous saying back at also you should there's nothing new under the sun and it's true. But there was also reuse reinventing of things we had here and the hamburger, you know, who did such a fantastic productions outside which on guard arts issues and pioneer in that work not only was raised up to but also much, much before we have that we have Bertie Ferdinand who talked about the oxides, you know, how can we use spaces all right and that we should use spaces with COVID or without, we have to, you know, find different ways to be outside the walls of the theater. So the living theater has done that in a long time. So tell us a little bit about the work you did already with Judas on the streets how would you all, how does it work, because you don't, as we now know we don't, you don't need, you know, the theater to do something. So all theater people in New York now say who have theater we can't do anything or buildings are closed. You guys never had a building used to theater but tell us a bit. What, what did you learn how does it work how do you use streets how do you use public places as a theater stages. Many times, but one of the one in the particular moments that struck me was that when we took seven meditations on say to massacism out, which was a play that was done in 1970, which was a to voice out all of the punishments and torture that were being done in Brazil. I think it was in 1973. And Judith and Julian and the collective they, the company wrote this piece. And then we brought it back. I think this was in 2011. We brought it back at 2010 when we brought it back at first, and then we brought it back to Washington Square Park and to Union Square and the way it worked was is that we already had a piece that was created and we were more on Washington Square and we just all came together and we said like a stage, we were in place and we started, and we just did it, and people would just watch and participate and because at the end of seven meditations we approach the people and say you know what can we do to change and what, what in your vision, can we do to change and we would have a discussion with each individual privately at the end of the show. It doesn't work to ask for a permission. How did you find it? You just say, hey, we're going to be there you send out an Instagram or tell us a bit how it works. It's a very interesting one thing. Well, we were doing their living here at the time we definitely like when they're whenever there's people wherever there's people we go there. We want to carry out the message you want to convince express the message to the people. So whatever there's people we were always there, Washington Square, or highlight and funny quick story is when we were doing no place to do no place to hide outdoor. We performed that highlight. We didn't realize that it was a private park, which means you have to ask for permission to perform. We simply just show up we said it's a public space everybody to come here to see things. We performed together about 100 or so people up to the point that they have to send security guards to kick us out. By the time Judith was with us, and layer was the director, she came up to the policeman the cops and said, What's the matter. What's the problem. It's a public space we were we were entitled to do things with the public where the where the citizens right here. What's the matter. And you have to shut it down because you don't have permits. And she simply said, Well, shut out yourself. There's 100 people. You can talk to them. If you if they're willing to cooperate, you can shut it down. Otherwise, we're going to be done in 10 minutes. You can let us finish and we're going to leave. It's your call. So what they did is they let us finish. And we came back the next day, still without a permit. So in Washington Square Park. Also, you just you put like this chalk or you how do you do where you go. How does it work. How did it tell us a little bit. There's almost. Sorry. It's almost like pretty magical in some sense like we, I find it that audience are willing to engage into something like what's happening there. You know, like find it find example we were rehearsing the Brooklyn piece in Greenpoint and it's pretty almost like there's nobody around there it's almost isolated all you have there and Greenpoint was all the trucks and all the workers, but the workers were engaged to a point where like what are you guys doing to a point where like they're standing there and watching even though they work for National Grid, they end up watching us. And because the curiosity brings the audience in that sense to me like our street theater you just bring it to the street and people just gravity to it because people are wanting it people want to see stuff. People want to be engaged and I think that's the beauty of like street performance, like license or no license like bring it to the street and people will gravity to it. So I think we need to diffuse the, the perceived separation between theater performance and life. There's no fourth wall. We are in space and we perform as individuals with a common idea. And if the people in Tompkins Square Park key into that idea they actually become part of the performance with us. If you set a monologue or you have speeches recorded you have some kind of a costume, you say we're going to do that tomorrow at 2pm you send out an Instagram, or an email. And, and then you, you just, you know, perform and you find your audience like 100. I was very happy if they have so many in a small theater right. Yeah, but usually we meet up before hand, because you know we also run daily workshops that where we teach people how to do this. And a day in the life of the living was called originally, and when we created a piece in around flat iron. That was the last time we taught once that wasn't the last time but we create a piece there's a structure you have to know where you are there's a discipline. There is like any performance there's warm up, there's a consensus. And then we walk out there together and then we take we take a space that we chose and how it is we have to usually meet up before. I wanted to mention also you asked about location. There's another aspect to some of this work, and that's, I guess you would consider it direct action. And that means, you know, taking, for us that means taking a theater piece that we've devised with the message to a specific location, or a specific group of people, we want to share that message with. So, let's say we won the 2016 know your rights tour. We wanted to send some messages to Boeing to Monsanto and a couple of other organizations that are actively damaging our environment and communities. We didn't want to let them know that we were coming we didn't want to ask their permission to come and send this message to them or perform for them. So that's another aspect of this as well. Anyone can get together with a group of people with a common problem in mind and come up with something to say about it and go and take action, sort of like stopping about. You went in front of the Boeing headquarters or what did you do. We on that tour, we traveled to Chicago where the head there's a big headquarters there we performed right in front of the front door, causing the security folks to be alerted, maybe causing some of the very busy workers in Chicago to at least turn their heads to see what we were talking about. And we also went to Berkeley and a couple of other places and performed seven meditations. And after that we brought the audience out into the streets because that's what Julian and in paradise now the theater is in the streets. So in a way you're using techniques that were developed in the 60s 50s 60s or while we're going others, and you're adapting them to the 21st century. Do that doesn't work. And what is new about it what's different. Now, something that we are still doing. It's not necessarily new new per se is we're just getting a custom to what is happening nowadays which is there's a lot of technology. So, even something that's as old as you know in the 60s, when you go on the street to do highly stylized bio mechanical movements. It attracts people's attention, because people nowadays are not used to it. When you have a group of people really committed into doing a certain specific thing, it instantly draws attention. So, we, we just remind people that there is this tool that's still timeless. Just because we're moving into a technological world doesn't mean the old school is no longer working. And that that is also the way that we do street theater, which is always prepare ourselves. So, no matter what happened on the street, you stay with your own message, you know you'll have to trust your ensemble members that they're always going to back you up. When we were doing state of direct action, we need to we need to talk about what's going to happen if the cops show up was going to be in charge of the escalating any tension. And how do we safely leave out the space, but also at the same time, when we enter the public space. How do we come in with a very strong determining attention towards the place that we are performing so that people can instantly tell that it's a space that's going to make something happen, so to speak. And it's a very similar way as you go to Washington Square, you will see people that the breakdancers, they are trying to like call out people said hey we're gonna have a show we're gonna have a show. Sometimes we do, we do do that, but sometimes all, all that's needed is just a group of people in costume, coming to the space with the commitment and do the show. And people will draw will be drawn without much ado. Find example is that when we took the mobile unit. It's just me Monica and Leah three of us driving that thing. And there's Leah in the middle of the platform in someone like, like a chicken wire cage for the anti anti eyes performance. And we literally stopped traffic. At some point we're like people were honking because people are people in the cars were engaged. And I was not idea idea to take the, the, the platform to another space and then around there was like a hard bike right up. So like we cost traffic and because like the, the car that was next to us was following us. I will list that they're migrants. So they can attach to the message of what we're performing. And, and as Danny said, like, we can engage audience without even asking them to be engaged, you know, seeing someone in costume in the middle of Brooklyn on the bike on the platform or bikes. That's like, I'm gonna see that what are they're doing, you know curiosity spikes that. And I think we're fortunate enough to like, we have so many creative minds in our collective that, you know, can come in and out and put something on a table where something this, this simple yet amazing can be executed and you know grab the minds of audience whether they want it or not. There was a, we all, we all performed as a collective in, in Mexico, and the day of the women's watch, and as shadows, really magical, and we were just walking and walking and walking and walking and we created this piece called electric awakening and we took parts of electric electric awakening which was a story of going from death to birth. And I that magic moment right before all these people were about to start the March, we just started this, we started the electric awakening and a part of it and everyone just stopped. And it was, there were so many people it was so incredibly magical everyone just paid attention and stopped and watched us and let us do the performance. And then we dispersed and then they started marching. There was also a moment in I wasn't there but I remember Leah telling me the story that there was a moment in. Norman area, right, and there's this. Salt Lake City, right in Salt Lake City and there's this performance. We need each other very slowly. It's a moment of love where we touch with we make love without touching, and it was same sex of love making and did it right in the middle of that right there was a reflection pool, which represents the union between a man and a woman only. And we went beyond that. Right, we got kicked out. Thank you. I think one thing you might be asking. In the Mormon kind of stronghold, you know, in their pool of unity, you know, like a couple of same sex which we should be actually the same rights for everyone so you went in there you put actually your buddies at risk so you do it can we said you dangerous arts or as puzzle in is that you know we have to throw our bodies into life so you take a risk right when you when you go out there. Absolutely. And it, as Dennis said it takes a certain commitment to each other confidence. And I think that's something that Judith and Julie and really cultivated. We work with something we call magic casting. It is a combination of trust in yourself and trust in the people that you're collaborating with and working with your awareness of the space so you're aware of what's going on inside the performance but you're also aware of who's watching and the environment and how it's changing as you perform, so that you can bring it in, or so that you can react appropriately. And then the bulldozer coming for you, for instance, or a police officer who's going to try to come break up the performance there's, there's this awareness in this trust and I think that every theater company, or every performance group can develop this together. And it just takes some, some trust. The other thing tech, like if we're talking about techniques, I remember the small anecdote that one of the members in the living theater asked about Judith how to get into the character that she's portraying. And the responder was, it was, there was nothing that's called character. It was odd about yourself performing in the spot. So whenever you are performing, whenever you are performing, you always keep it to yourself, you know you are there. You are present. It's not a character that's present. It's you that's present. So even picking up, picking back to what Jessica just said, the trust is you need to believe into the message that you are trying to convey. You need to believe why you are there. You need to convince yourself you are there for a good cause. And you need to trust the people around you. And it happens when we did a revolting the stories when we did the reading, the talk that we had, it was really not about how do you portray the miners, or the minus life. It's odd about you at this particular day election night. What do you believe that the future of America is going to be like, what do you think, how do you fathom by doing this project actually help advocate for the things that you believe. So to speak. So it's odd about preparing yourself more than preparing yourself for acting out a character. So I would like to hear from you. What do you believe in? Why do you guys make theater and not painting or another art form? Why do you do theater? What does it do? And has COVID changed that? I would really like to hear from every one of you. Why are you doing this? I think that one of the things that is like transformational radical transformation and like leadership that we all need our own lives and we can all help each other. And I think one of the ways of actually finding the collective idea is first, of course, what, what do we need? What do we community need? And we ask our community with other people, what do you feel you need in the community right now, where you are, the country you are, the time you are and where you are, what do you need? And then from there, with the tools that we have to perform and to create art, we think about, okay, how can we change that? And what can we do to voice that? And from there, art is created and we led. Yeah, it's, you know, sometimes for me, I don't have to believe certain things. When I walk on the street, I look around when I see people that are not having a house to live in, that are shivering in cold, or the people that are waiting to get food. It's already a good cause for us to continue doing what we do. Because it's only human to really care about other human beings. And oftentimes, especially in big cities, sometimes you forget that you need to do certain things for the benefit of a human being itself. Yeah. Yeah, theater is the art form that represents to me, action. And it was when, when I first was reading Judith, some of Judith's writing, it dawned on me, she talks about actors, but not in the sense of like Utahagen, or, you know, Stanislavski and Ethan Hawke, but actor as an activist, someone who can take action and change the environment that they're in, with purpose. So it really changed what I, what I perceived as what theater is, or what the, who the actor is inside of that, and what the possibilities are as a human being, not just a, okay, I'm going to become a performer now, and perform this story or this character like Dennis talked about. So I don't want to lose that in our, in our, for humanity, to keep it exercising. So I look at a limited and the formation of a limited as my personal lifeline. I moved to Brooklyn this earlier this year in January, in hopes of gathering together as a group to find to create repertoire, because we had planned tours earlier this summer that, you know, was all canceled because of COVID. And when COVID happened, then I realized that everything is destroyed. And then a quote that came up to me throughout this year's destruction is a prerequisite for creating my identity. By living through that the past year and it was like, it gave me hope that, yeah, we might not be able to perform in life, but we can develop our own identity creatively. And that kept me alive, that hopes, that idea that, yeah, we might not be in the same space, but if we just keep pushing little by little, we'll come off of it better than when we came into it. And I think to me was my saving grace for my creative mentality. You know, I was like, yeah, because, as I said, for me, all my work has been participatory in contact with other people, you know, my co performers with the audience, you know, I've been in the past 10 years and my performance have been, how do we bring the audience into the performance? That's always been the main question. And now I don't have that outlet, like, how can I bring the audience without touching them or without even looking at them? You know, not even being in the same space, you know, and I think that's what COVID brought up to us, you know, it's like, we're going to have this, we're taking this, what you're going to do now. Also a question, do you feel this time of COVID change something? Will it be different what you will be doing? Let's say next year, everybody has vaccinations and things will go back to normal on 22 or late 21. What is normal? What is normal? What is normal? Are we going back to normal? I highly doubt it. I mean, normal is going to have to change. I think it should change because normal. Have you changed? Has your work changed? Do you think something will be different because of this year? Yes. There was this aspect of the living that was, and I used to say this to Judith, that I said, you know, this is very dictatorship sometimes, it's like a whole sometimes, you know, and she was like, well, whatever, it doesn't matter, you know, she wouldn't deny it. And I feel like what has is different is that, and I think she wants us to evolve is that it's not really about like what Dennis said about belief really, but it's about why we do what we do. And that why can be as simple as just I want to do it. My heart wants to do it. And, and, or, you know, the why of the of the particular project like the particular project of beginning middle ending was, we wanted everyone to be connected. We wanted everyone to be connected at this time. So the impulse of why we do what we do has changed. I think there's isolation so there's more needs to be connected. There's everything that's happening politically has changed as well, you know, I so we respond to that time at that time. And I, I know that's very transcendent and that's not like even Dennis has been Dennis is our, our guide in a lot of ways, you know, he's he's puts us back in check. And, you know, we had a meeting recently that was like, what's our vision, you know, and we all kind of like, you know, shy away because I think it's really about not the vision because it's always changing it's about why we're doing what we're doing at that time, which is true meaning of Zen. And I think, you know, what's going to happen next will be it's actually it reminds us more how much we want to do in person performance, how much we're going to we want to dive more into what it means by participation in a theater production. What is how much control do we have and how much control should we let go so that something that's totally new come out from a production itself with the audience members. And also how much more in terms of how therapeutic each production should be and how much more power that we should offer people so that they feel liberated when they are coming to work with us. And then those things, you know, after this COVID I believe that we, we all have felt very strongly about these elements these values that we want to carry on moving forward, wherever that the production might be, even if it's just on zoom or on on social media. Those are the things that we don't want to lose and we thinks to cover it, we were reminded those core values that we learned from the living theater, moving forward. And in terms of logistics. The goal is to do more live performances with live audiences. But just like in the film world. There's a COVID officer who is responsible for keeping the production safe. And if that's what we need to do. And create an audience space, six feet apart actors six feet apart. Maybe that's exciting out of necessity, you know, coming the, that the true truth out of necessity coming the truth basically. If we need to adjust for that. That is something we will do. And maybe we'll keep some of the digital formats that we've developed in some way. But the liminal archive was designed or conceived to grow with us through this time so it started as writing and became these digital imprints that we post online. And from that, we will take that and form it into a scripts that could be performed. And perhaps the digital elements could be presented during that live performance. But we wanted to, we don't know how what's going to happen with it because we're looking towards the future and still developing that. But it will have its rules and its limits and will embrace those limits. And sometimes, very interestingly, throughout this year we have been discussing about the issues that we care so much, especially the political issues. It's not between Biden or Trump. It's, there's something that's deeper that troubles everybody's daily life, the incoming equality and all that. And then because we had so much time on the internet, we started to make connect the dots. What happened in Peru? Why were they on the street fighting? What happened to the yellow vests? Why were they on the street fighting? What happened to India? We start making all those stats and realize there is one big fundamental thing that's troubling everybody in this world. It's beyond Biden or Trump. Those are just symptoms. We always come back and then check in. What are the things we really want to, want to deal with? What's our next production is going to like? How do we speak on those issues? How do we incorporate as many voices, as different voices, not just from, you know, the racial diversity within America, but on the global stage, what are the people arguing about? What do they care? How do we make sure that this message is as universal as possible and really go into the very core that cause human suffering. I think that's something that we have been discussing and talking about moving forward. It's also an incredible platform. Maybe you want to talk about that Dennis that you created to unify all of us where we can post images and maybe you want to talk about that platform because I think that's really helpful to other people as well. Oh yeah, it's just a platform that, you know, we're moving to the new technological world. Some platforms that help building a company, a collective like Slack or Trello. There's like really new app that actually bring us even closer together because that's the platform that we can throw in ideas at any time. Slack or Trello, what do you use? We use Trello. Yeah, that's interesting. That's something that's more or less designed for business context for, you know, units working together for an advertising project or build a new car that a company takes it and you have it as a communication. You twist and use something that's existing for something different. Yeah, why not? If there's a tool, the tool should be available for everybody. And especially in America, if we only think of corporate, we can never create a space for artists. And if we utilize all those apps, in the end of the day, if we don't find anything that's satisfactory to us, we can represent our voices and artists and say like, Hey, you need to change. That's essentially what Union was all about in the very beginning. We unified people's voice and demand change. Yeah, and Trello is $5, you know, it's easy access. What about TikTok? TikTok is a world that people engage with. We look down to it, but it's becoming a phenomenon. And now, theater artists are going on it as short messages, but people actually listen to it. There's a following. We had a meeting about that. Oh, with Peter. Don't you use that? Are you going to say, you know, why not? We get a following worldwide. Are you working on that? I mean, we definitely talked about it. We said, if we want to reach through the next generation, we definitely need to incorporate that platform, which means, you know, there's definitely like opposing voices within our group. Why do we have to go into TikTok? Because it's such a like a trendy thing. But what we think about is we utilize that very example of the teenagers unifying themselves to book the tickets to Trump rally and didn't show up. So that was a social movement. And how are we going to utilize this platform to create something that actually to create a direct action that disrupts the social order to its extreme. And if TikTok is the platform, why not? So that was one of the voices. And the other one, of course, is the concern about the privacy issue, the personal freedom and all that. So we're still ongoing in terms of the debate, but I think a lot of us are very open minded in terms like how do we incorporate all the tools out there so that our voice can be heard. Amazing, amazing, amazing. We are coming closer to the end of our talk. So this is for our viewers. You know, it is interesting. There's a company that came out of a company that dates back, I think it's Living Theatre was probably 48 or 49 and developed methods. You are remodeling them, you're reusing, you're repurposing them for the 21st century. I think your small mobile units, you don't have a theater in itself, you don't even have an office. You contract, you can as a small mobile unit connect in cities, even in countries where you have people you have collaborated with in Italy, Brazil, Argentina, wherever you would go. And you perform on the streets and the plus in the parks, but also in theater. You know, just looking at you guys here, the diversity in your company is outstanding. Everybody talks about it now, but you have done this, you know, for a long time in the living, especially also your company without even thinking about it. You know, that it's now something that's being added on the web page, you know, to have that diversity in itself. It was always an integral part of your work. And so this is quite sophisticated now how you're also going into, you know, the digital realm and using apps and possibly working with TikToks. Yeah, why not your performances in Brazil here that are restaging on very short spots that might when people inspire to come and see the full performances. So it is wonderful to see, you know, how it will be people will be following your work to see, you know, what what solutions you'll find what better questions you will have and so they choose to tradition but also reinvented and that's why I think this is an important adventure you guys are on and everybody listening out here, you know, hire these people. I mean, it's so hard to create something there, of course, not subsidized don't have that company structure of a nonprofit that is, you know, being supported like the off and off of Broadway playhouses. You know, Soraya should be in a TV show and lead actor and put the money back in and Dennis could be directing other work. And Jessica to the documentary is shadow is a dancer so I think we have to support them and think about it. And as professionals, and they are great artists and they're also evolving and developing and now it is, of course crucial is the end of the talk. What, what, what are new projects can you share what are new ideas what you have are they going to happen or not. What are you guys working on. Well there's one other space that we're exploring in this new realm and that's Internet radio. And because of our, our germination as a limited we met a group in Tijuana called net net space. Hi they Jimenez and several other artists in Tijuana, and they have developed net net radio. And that's a 24 hour broadcast net net radio calm just go there and listen to everything that's being played for free. One of the elements that all we need to can contribute to that is live readings talks like this, and other, other, you know, digital audio performance experiments. So that's one thing that will start coming out in 2021 is on net net radio performances and things from all. We're also talking a possible collaboration with the freedom theater from Palestine, we're trying to do something with them. So that's, that'll be digital, like a digital project. What was that project that I was proposing for April. Oh yeah. Any plays are you doing or productions. We're discussing devising a new piece in the same manner that we did devise electric awakening. Are you familiar with how we put that piece together. Well maybe you've seen a few sentences. Yeah, I think Dennis can do that better than we had a concept and we want to play along. We're using smaller pieces to just do a lot of physical work without language to convey a very idea which means to confront the unknown. So we have we create a life cycle in different stages and we talk about each stage. What are we trying to confront. And we simply just do physical exercises inspired by all those smaller physical exercises that we did in the living theater, develop further into a performance. Right, amazing. Yeah, and I'm sure you can do great workshops at universities, teach about the history of the living, the legacy of it. And again, it's a, it is a, I think a way to do theater a method that does work outside in the parks in the public spaces engaged with social political context environmental themes as these guys it was the pipeline or in front of the detention centers, a diverse group, you know that that really reflects how New York City looks like and, and to work together collectively they say the big change perhaps is you know that it's done as a collective more people are responsible to then will take artistic credit instead of the one person who might have done this. Before I think what also what shadow said the idea, how do we bring people in to our specters how do we get close to them or earlier on I think so I said you know we listen what does the community need. What can we do, and Dennis's idea, you know, of, of creating a sensible spaces, you know, if they turn their head or listen for a moment. And most people, of course, I think we have a deeper but there is something in there that this company has done for a very long time that in the time of covert works but perhaps it's also of significance whether there is a virus out there or not it's a great form of theater. It's an important one that emerged and that is moving that is growing but also changing its shape, and it's something we, we all should and can follow and also it's honoring the legacy of a great great theater company that like very few others. And some claim is has been the most significant theater company of the 20th century, the living was the biggest impact is success. And it change how we think about theater so congratulations you guys over putting this out there the work of connecting creating your own community by the community beyond it and I really wish you. I'm all the best, and, and I hope that you also can hear the legacy maybe also to teach it and, and, and continue that work with the living of theaters but through your company. I just want to say one thing that I think that the strength of this company that is done and what we're open to is that want to encourage people to not have any fear, no fear in this time. I think there's a lot of fear and that creates a lot of more disease and more issues and more isolation and so we are a platform that if you have an idea or if there's anything that you need that we would like to like help in whatever we can with the tools that we have to help overcome that with and I think that what attracts people to the living theater and to us is that it's a non violent form of invitation and of things as well. And Soraya is a healer also by profession highly highly trained one actually. So and anyone I guess and go to the website of a limited send them your projects reach out to them. Learn from them or be part of it or do your own company I'm sure they will listen to you and give you advice or come and visit. And this is also something we can do now so thank you all for listening thanks for how around it's great that we had BJ with us tomorrow we hear from the great European poetry cafe from spoken word artists and group of people around that significant and groundbreaking institution that has provided New York City also with such significant work in the arts that it is really worth to to hear from them tomorrow as a closure of the of the 2020 seat of talk so thank you guys for taking the time I hope it's what as inspiring to you as it was to us thank you for our listeners. We know how much is out there how many content it's an or more and more talks we started very early on in March, where I think the only one we're the only theater institution you've been doing daily programming from Monday through Friday creating new I think we were the only one, I think, perhaps even Europe. And, and so it's I think it has been a contribution we're very proud of it. And, and it was for us also a way to survive and to be connected to people and but also the beauty and the mysterious way art works and we talked to so many artists, and I think it was a great contribution they gave us the artist and listening to them and their voices. But thanks to the audience that listen to us with us, I hope that you will come back to us next year we also think how will we go on, we don't know yet we are thinking about it. And, and so happy new year, and we hope that 21 will be better than 2020 a quarter year, and the election with Trump with covert the black lives matter it's certainly here that for decades will resonate through it and we are part of it. We are part of it, but we also as a surprise that we are acting in that we are actors, we have to be part of the change we want to see we have to take action it's about us. Not about other people we have to do that I leave me to also makes that clear that what this is about is not that they are great artists, but they want to inspire people to change forms that are not working and to find new ones, or save forms that are that we should keep, but we have to find ways to create the meaning and understand the times we live in and art has been a great great great contribution towards that so thank you all for taking your time, and, and all the best with your work will keep you doing so. All our congratulations are taking on that big shadow, big big theater that's over you the names of Judas and Julian, but to go forward but in a way this is also what mankind does we have our history behind us this is an angel of Walter Benjamin you know the catastrophe in the back, but it's looking forward, but it's, you know, a mountain of rubble is then they really have to see what the new times brings but it's also part of the rebirth and the change that happens and it's part of life so thank you all and see you next week here you next week and help you all come back. Thank you.