 I have an interview coming up with UFO researcher Richard Dolan here are some clips we met with the guy at the DoD but he's a whistleblower all the information he revealed well none of it's classified or top secret the kid who took the innocently took a selfie being inside the submarine he's in prison and this is the biggest thing ever even though it happened 15 years ago I wouldn't say that Elizondo necessarily classifies as a whistleblower I don't know I mean he all of these people are self-serving so the the folks at TTSA it's not like you know they're all angels and they have no other ulterior motives what they do all these guys who are the military that was their pledge are we at a different point where we've totally given up on the idea that we need to hold these people accountable is that just kind of out the window oh man good question we're in a post-constitutional phase I mean look we're in a an upside down world where what I call this thing now legal illegality that's really what it is it's like this legal framework to to protect what is fundamentally should be illegal in any democratic oriented society consciousness clearly is important in some fundamental way to this nature of our reality and secondly we have an enormous hole in our general understanding of reality itself like there's things we don't get and so in that hole are things like UFOs in that hole are things like you know synchronicities and spirituality and maybe even like you know definitely like psychic phenomena psi phenomenon absolutely fit in there stay with us for skeptico when it's all said and done the UFO slash ET thing is going to be understood as well one of the biggest things in our history I mean it is after all at the center of just about every question we can ask who are we why are we here and that makes it at the center of not just our history but also the center of our science and maybe even the center of our spirituality so if the UFO ET thing is the big thing then what are we to make of today's guest because for the last 20 years oxford trained historian and road scholar finalist Richard Dolan has been widely acknowledged as one of the most respected authoritative and influential researchers within this field his many books I have some of them up on the screen if you're watching this and his extensive research articles that I continue to profit from and lean on all the time have brought a new level of scholarship and in particular respectability to a field that really needed it especially needed it a few years back when Richard started this adventure he's the author of a number of books as I mentioned including the seminal UFO in the national security state series also but another book we're going to talk about one that he wrote with Bryce Zabel and as you all know Richard has appeared on many many documentaries tv programs he's the host of the very excellent Richard Dolan show that we might play some clips of later in this interview and it's just a real pleasure and joy to have him join me Richard thanks so much for being here Alex it's a pleasure thank you for that very nice introduction it's nice to be here well you're welcome and I don't want to start off with a total cheese ball question but this is going to maybe sound like one anyway and that's what are we to make of your legacy and have you thought about your legacy and that you know that makes it immediately sound like we're kind of putting you out to pasture or something but I really want to hone in on this because you know the UFO field anyone who's in that has to pretty much accept the fact that you are going to be ignored by all the mainstream praise givers reward rewarders and honor giving entities you're going to be outside of the loop on that but as a historian you know that sometimes history kind of straightens out those oversights so without I'm you're a pretty modest guy from what I can tell but have you given any thought to what it might look like in terms of your career in the longer lens of history interesting I've actually never been asked that question before so well I have thought about and whatever impact my contribution may have had to ufology in general so when I think back on the publication of my first book UFOs in the national security state and in the first edition of that book I self published back in the year 2000 I was about a year and a half before 9 11 and I do remember the reaction that it got from some of the old timers in the field at the time and I was aware that it had a very it seemed to have a strong impact for a lot of people because it was I feel even now it was probably the first attempt to sort of mainstream UFO history within a broader context of American and world history so I don't think anyone had ever done that before and that in itself at the time was kind of a radical thing I could have done that book a lot better looking back on it but the funny thing is writing that first book was my education in the field I started in 1995 94 and basically ground zero of knowledge of the subject I mean nothing so I started really throwing myself into the old literature the old books Kehoe, Lorenzen's, Hynek, Ruppelt, all those guys and every everyone else had been forgotten and and then a lot of the modern what was then modern work on it and put together a narrative yeah that had not really been done before so I think and there was at the time it was a radical interpretation of the UFO cover-up I used the phrase national security state in the title itself which actually I borrowed from an essay by Gore-Vidal from the 1980s who had written an article like that I think for the nation but I think it was a radical interpretation of the cover-up which when I look back on that book now it seems very almost conservative in its thesis you know I think there have been people have gone far far more radical and sometimes in a good way sometimes in a very unproductive way but I guess what I would say as far as legacy is that that work and then my subsequent volume and other work that have done since have helped to open up like I guess I'll say a better political analysis of the UFO phenomenon and cover-up and and then if there's any other legacy that I would have this isn't mine specifically other people have done this as well or better for sure but is to try to study this subject with with respect that is by looking at the data not trying to pretend that I've understood all of the data and all of the information and showing respect enough to the phenomenon itself to have questions and the puzzle let out and not to pretend that I know everything one thing that I just I get frustrated by sometimes is by individuals in this field who act like they've got everything figured out you know that's interesting um you know the one thing I can really relate to having followed the UFO field kind of from the outside especially when when you got started but was still super aware of the shift that came about with you doing things in the way that you did it bringing this level of just confidence authority and scholarship did you one more question on this then we're going to move on because I have so many things I want to talk to you about but did you get a sense for that shift because I think a lot of people felt that shift you know Dolan comes out and he's hitting this stuff hard in terms of the real stuff but he's doing it in a very matter of fact scholarly way we can handle this stuff boom here it is were you surprised by the shift did you notice the shift I didn't notice it for a while I have to honestly say that like because I wasn't active in this field in the 1990s I was a lone wolf researching this all through the 90s no one knew who I was so I didn't go to any conferences I didn't really know anyone I didn't talk to anyone I had very limited correspondence it's crazy when I look back how I did that book over that five-year period so when I entered the field I don't I don't really think I had a true appreciation of how others were perceiving me that's the truth like I could tell that there were individuals who told me that they appreciated what I did and I mean I got that early on and that that has grown over the years certainly in the last decade even 15 years it's been shocking to me to be honest just to see the response that people get from me I'm it's humbling I'll honestly say but in the early years I know I don't think I can't say that I was really aware I think that I was I was very focused on on pursuing what I felt was um an original approach to this at least as far as I could tell and um I know it's a hard question to answer I think over over time I've come to appreciate that that my that whatever it is that I've done has had its own niche its own place in ufology and and that's that's definitely good feeling so one of the things that you've done I guess is really give us a reorientation to the word disclosure in what that means and you've kind of come back to that again and again and when we chatted before the interview one of the things that I said I really was anxious to talk to you about was kind of a follow-up to a book that you published a few years ago after disclosure which I thought at the time was again it's such a I'm gonna stop saying your praises here a minute because it's getting uncomfortable but it really was a novel way to kind of deal with the question of how can there be this reality that seems to be acknowledged by so many people and understood by so many people and yet it's cut under wraps and we keep spinning around in that circle and then somebody jumps ahead and says okay wait a minute let's say what happens after disclosure so anyways that's what the book was about many people will know about that book but then I found a fantastic presentation you did the new face of disclosure in the youtube video is up you gave it in Copenhagen in July of 2019 and back to the pre-interview thing we were having I wanted to ask you what you think now now that a lot of us would look around and say disclosure has happened or is happening what do you think about disclosure now let me play a clip from your presentation and then let's chat about that a little bit so can the establishment truly dominate the narrative if they are rolling out this disclosure narrative I think it'd be very difficult or anyone who's trying to control the narrative really there's a lot of questions that will come up you know when when we did after disclosure 10 years ago Bryce and I really asked about these things for me the big question is if you make an acknowledgement that UFOs are real ever then wouldn't it be the case that people would say oh my god so how have you been lying to us all this time okay let's let's talk about that I mean that's enough of a tea up right there just what do you think well um first thing I'll just say is it's funny about disclosure I did not ever want to write about disclosure ever uh 15 plus years ago people were talking about disclosure this is back in 2002 3 4 and I would say ah way too early to talk about that we still have to get into the nature of the cover-up and disclosure is premature and but the problem is I kept getting roped in to uh Steve Bassett's X conferences which were about disclosure and all these other disclosure conversations I was naturally brought in because of the political analysis that I used to do that I've always done so uh yeah when when we wrote after disclosure um that's a book I'm really happy I had a great co-author Bryce Abel was uh and is a script screenwriter producer he's got a lot of good Hollywood experience he did the tv show dark skies which many still remember and his imprint is really definitely visible on that book but in terms of what I was talking about in that clip there in Copenhagen I I still maintain this I've always believed that any kind of official announcement from any government body particularly the United States government is going to be a really difficult one for them to control because the UFOs people think they contain this subject and it cannot be tamed it's it's too big of a reality transformation and that is why I actually don't believe that we're we're seeing disclosure right now when when uh the mainstream narrative changed starting at the end of 2017 when the New York Times did their few pieces Politico and then all of the follow-up and we have seen so much transformation uh it is easy to come to the conclusion oh well this is completely government controlled it's a sigh up it's a disclosure narrative whatever I know you really pushed back hard on me when we were talking and I said Richard to me this is obviously a political sigh up kind of because you totally disagree yeah I mean well I can understand the point of you but here's I'll tell you why I disagree can I can I can I ask you to pause that let me add a clip to it and then you can respond directly because sure we both uh like I think you know and appreciate Leslie Cain right who of course has the byline to that New York Times story and I had a chance to interview her and I love Leslie she's awesome she's been on the show a couple times a lot of respect for but I hammered her pretty hard let me play this clip yeah Leslie who comes forward this is not a day he's not a whistleblower right this is any kind of is you are such a good journalist writer investigative journalist beyond this group here two colleagues at the times that have are even more experienced than I am that were in in on this with me so but just looking at it from from the big picture where is an example of a where anyone inside the government has come out and said anything even like this I mean the kid who went to jail for having a picture of a submarine in his background I mean this is not a day in age where people inside the government with deep state secrets like this are allowed to speak freely he was not breaking boundaries or saying all this crazy stuff that no one wanted to say this is a controlled release no I don't agree with that I mean none of our work ever led me to get to that conclusion or any of us and we talked to a lot of people the point is none of the information that he brought forward was classified information is about classified information that's the distinction right that distinction is meaningless at this point this is the biggest story probably in the in our in the history of our lives certainly a lot of people are saying in the history of the world and to suggest that this somehow and some bony baloney classified not classified top secret this isn't classified and that's supposed to be the the mark I I don't see it okay so of course they he were talking about his Lou Elizado and what do you make of that you know this thing that oh this wasn't classified so that's why it came out so funny I find myself agreeing with Leslie on this issue I mean I've known Leslie for many years and and like and respect her and we've I just chatted with her again last summer but I haven't always agreed with her perspective on public our public statements on this but I agree with her here although I didn't probably initially agree so I'll tell you why I would agree with you I would agree with you because perhaps like you I I don't have a trust of the New York Times and I don't have a trust of any of the mainstream corporate journalists media establishment that exists in the western world I think all of it is hopelessly corrupt and servants of the national security apparatus and the global financial apparatus so anything that comes out of the New York Times I think you have to be very very careful of and and you know considering that the New York Times had 75 years or so of consistent anti UFO I mean the worst snarky smarmy only exceeded by the Washington Post probably which is which is actually the worst but the New York Times has been so bad on this and then suddenly boom what's this all about so I'm going to give you my take on what happened here all right you can really lay this at the door step of the folks at TTSA now we can talk about what we think TTSA is you can yes we will oh there is CIA up but let's just leave that aside for a moment and we'll let's put a pin in that as I say so TTSA rolls out their press conference in October of 2017 and as you'll probably remember that's where really the first public statement of what became known as the tic-tac UFO even though that had been in that had been discussed and above top secret all of that but really you have these guys talking about it and it's a heck of an encounter and they're talking also about ATIP in that October press release I'm not sure if they used an AMA tip but they certainly said the Pentagon's been studying this so it was actually that TTSA press conference that outed the tic-tac and the ATIP program so now you've got a legit journalist like Leslie who is legit interested in UFOs not pretend but she's genuinely interested and she's got her inroads with the New York Times and she's got a couple of allies there Blumenthal and Helene Cooper and they're dealing with a New York Times establishment that does not want to cover this but I asked Leslie about this myself last summer and she didn't give me an answer as to why the New York Times covered this but I'm going to give you my answer as to why I believe the New York Times covered this because they knew that this story was going to break and I believe that they said all right we will we'll do this but we're going to handle it our way and what they ended up doing if you look at those articles as they brought in particularly with the ATIP piece ridiculous skeptical statements that had no meaning like by James Oberg like what is he even doing in this article and this meaningless astronomer from I think Yale or Harvard who had zero to say about this but these were skeptical placeholders psychological placeholders so what the New York Times did is basically their attempt to control this narrative so that not to let it get out of control what happened is that because the New York Times gave even some validation to UFOs I think this became much bigger than the leadership at the times would have expected boy I just we will we will have to disagree on this and we'll move on. I like to have this out. Okay just to address the point I mean to me it's so patently just ludicrous and you know the other thing I always like to add. Well what's ludicrous what's ludicrous exactly? First of all the idea that Lou Elizado is a whistleblower is just it just doesn't it just doesn't add up. Well I wouldn't necessarily call him a whistleblower I think. But she just did she just did she said he's a whistleblower and and then the idea that we met with the guy at the DOD but he's a whistleblower all the information he revealed well none of it's classified or top secret it's like I'm like I've mentioned you know the the kid who took the innocently took a snap photo a selfie being inside the submarine he's in prison and this is the biggest thing ever even though it happened 15 years ago. I wouldn't say that Elizondo necessarily classifies as a whistleblower I don't know I mean he all of these people are self-serving so the the folks at TTSA it's not like you know they're all angels and they have no other ulterior motives what they do. It's all about money it's all about getting a piece of the action I would hazard to guess that they want maybe they want some defense money maybe they want some contracts maybe they want access to what they know is classified technology there may be other things going on here where it's not all philanthropic I I would be shocked if it were who whoever acts like that so I don't know. Here's the alternative here's the alternative read on that that that I take and a lot other people take is that number one it's political the word political is important here not because I have any political stake in the left versus the right I think the whole thing is is a scripted nonsensical joke at this medium level and that there's a layer above it that just ignores all that anyway but this is clearly coming from the Podesta Clinton camp that was trying to release the year before it sure looks they were hooked up with Tom DeLonge and that whole thing and they were announcing they were kind of preheating us for the release they didn't win the election so they just kind of rolled it out anyway is how it looked to me I think the whole the whole thing the whole Peter LeVendor Tom DeLonge thing it just was the story just never made any sense Peter LeVendor well you know Tom DeLonge called me up and I was like wow is this really Tom DeLonge like yeah buddy we got to go to the CIA and get to the bottom of the UFO story because it's never been told it's like is this like some kind of bad script there's some reality and some some non-reality in that so I would say I've never believed that Hillary and Podesta were ever going to be a disclosure team ever that I don't I didn't believe it then I don't believe it now I don't think it would ever have happened if she had been elected president there would be no more disclosure than there is now I don't think that was a plan I do believe Podesta is very smart and as a UFO savvy guy which he clearly is recognized that his candidate who was desperately in need of an additional cool factor in her campaign could benefit from being kind of a UFO knowing also that the New York Times would not trash her since they basically own the New York Times coverage anyway so she she could get away with being a UFO candidate go on Jimmy Kimmel you know try her hand at that whole thing and maybe win a few votes that's all that I've ever believed there's no evidence to me that in any of the DeLonge Podesta communications that Podesta was actually serious about this like someone please show me where where does Podesta show that yes we're going to do disclosure this is all DeLonge all his thing Podesta allowed some communications to happen and then of course the whole thing was they turned the lights on WikiLeaks came out and they all ran for cover and and DeLonge came up with his B team but well that's that's a Hillary thing I don't I don't think I believe that okay I think that they were I think DeLonge's people might have had these had these illusions yes I think that's entirely possible that they would have thought oh yes we're going to get Hillary and Podesta to be disclosure candidates but I seriously doubt that Hillary Clinton or Podesta would have considered moving head with a UFO disclosure well one of the things that people really appreciate about your work Richard and I respect as well is you move very carefully according to direct evidence that you have or we can't really say direct evidence but as close as you can get to direct evidence and I respect that try at the at the same time I think I think there is a need to kind of fill in some of these planks and that's what I'm trying to do here as well but let's move on to kind of a related I enjoyed this I just I enjoyed discussing this with you so well when I listen to your Copenhagen presentation I kind of thank you and many respects in the same camp when you lay out really the the the like you say the wall the Washington Post and his appearance on Fox that is the well as Ando and then all this other stuff you kind of make the case on both sides and then you come down on one or the other which is totally I get respect here's something we're all going to move on to what you dubbed the leak of the century yes and we're going to talk about that but we're going to and that is the the release by of the Thomas Wilson memo but I'm going to do it through the words of this guy who we see up on the screen Dr. Edgar Mitchell Apollo astronauts support our troop Dr. Edgar Mitchell let me play a couple of clips from this and I might have to skip around because it's a long clip but I want to get a couple of things in there so first I thought we just play a little bit of the intro because the guy is so I will now call to the podium of a distinguished American but a man who is in fact someone who has the right stuff which includes a doctorate in aeronautics and astronautics from nnt selection to the NASA Apollo program selection to a so bass it's going to go through his long list yeah which which he should and he deserves but we're going to skip ahead of here a little bit this now he's going to be talking about rather than friends some of the people in the area who had been involved what I call the old timers who are because I'll just add in here uh Edgar Mitchell is from Texas but he really claims to be from Roswell because he was very young age and people like in the sheriff's department who have been to the Christ site and were supervising traffic uh my friend and friend of our family the major who was an office major so because he does have a little bit of that Texas draw and you're a new yorker and I'm a Chicago guy we need a little bit of speed up here he basically says and I want you to respond to this you know any doubters about Roswell should be doubters know more about our Apollo astronaut walked on the moon 2009 he comes and says hey it's real I know it from the best authorities that I have and I'm a local and I know it and it also jives with what I know from my professional career so that we're going to put a pin in that but I do want you to come back to address it and I wanted to bring go forward a little bit in this conversation to the real point of what I was trying to get you to respond to here let's see okay get that and uh at some point about 10 years ago and I can't remember what date it was right now when the disclosure movement was under going strongly I came here to Washington with a Navy commander by the name of Will Miller and Dr. Stephen Greer and we were able to get an appointment at the Pentagon to talk about what we knew or what we allegedly knew what we thought we knew and went and told our story and the powers would be in the intelligence committee of the Joint Chiefs of Staff listened to our story and said the Admiral said well I don't know that story I don't know that that's true but I will find out so we departed bring him down because I want you to pick up and you've written extensively and done some extensive shows on this and again you've dubbed it the what leak did you say UFO leak of the century so people lay on a little bit and tell us what Edgar Mitchell's talking about absolutely I'm glad you found that clip by the way Alex I was sitting in that audience looking at him he did that and it's funny how I forgot this is 2009 that was yeah uh yeah but anyway um I've known about this since 2006 so um and in fact I communicated with Edgar about that in back in 06 as well but essentially here's here's the story back in 1997 April of that year uh Edgar Mitchell Commander Will Miller who we just mentioned Dr. Stephen Greer a couple of other people Greer was really leading this effort at the time to make the rounds in Washington to talk to anyone within Congress anyone in power about the UFO cover-up issue and and his particular take largely accurate I would have to say on the black budget nature of the UFO cover-up the privatization the rogue nature of the secrecy as I think he would call it and I would call it so let me just interject here because I want you to break that down for people because I've listened to like two hours that you've given on that and it's spellbinding in terms of these secret programs the different levels of authorization non-authorization knowledge outside and then the privatization thing and the it's really a ploy to move it outside of the purview of the freedom of information act so just kind of at a high level go over that game that's being played because that fits into this well I'll uh let me I'll continue by just by telling the story but I will definitely want to bring that analytic in because it's important when it ended up happening and and everyone has agreed to this that that Greer and his group were able to meet with Admiral Thomas R. Wilson who at the time was a vice chair of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs of Staff the position known as J2 very shortly after that Wilson became head of intelligence for the Joint Chiefs and then within two years of that became head of the Defense Intelligence Agency then retired went off into private industry in the early Bush years but here we are in 97 and Greer actually did a presentation for Wilson and Wilson's colleagues and one of Wilson's bosses and other colleagues were there and uh it was all about UFOs in fact one of the things mentioned was Philip J. Corso's book Day After Roswell so UFO crashes um so all of that is official in 2006 someone very close to all of that but not at the meeting with someone close to Mitchell someone close to that whole group met with me personally and we and showed me a couple of pages and I I've never remembered if it's two or three pages it's one or the other might be two pages it might be three pages of what looked like a transcript of sorts it turned out to be Eric Davis's notes but a transcript between one person writing down his interview with someone else and this individual that I was speaking with told me yeah this person was in the Joint Chiefs and met with Greer and was told about the Black Budget Program of UFOs and went looking and within two months was found the program or one of the programs and then was denied access by the lawyers by the corporate lawyer and the program manager because he didn't ever need to know and was very upset about it so um and then the other thing was that he got that I remembered reading is that he had confirmation that this was technology not of this earth not made by human hands um I wasn't given any names during that meeting but shortly after that I read Stephen Greer's book Hidden Truth Forbidden Knowledge where he wrote about his meeting with Wilson and I wrote back to my contact I said oh I guess I know who it is it's Wilson and he said yep uh ended up having a quick phone conversation with Admiral Wilson I communicated with Edgar Mitchell about this I even communicated with Stephen Greer briefly um and long story short Wilson would not admit whatsoever first that he even had the meeting then he was forced to admit he had the meeting uh and then said no but I never did anything after that I never looked into what it thought was nonsense which is patently untrue and here's you have Mitchell's statement saying that that Wilson did look into it of course we don't really know like no one literally would know but what we do have is Eric Davis of National Institute of Discovery Science who was friendly with Edgar Mitchell they were all on the NIDS board back in those days run by Robert Bigelow the head of the board was Kit Green another important member was Hal Putt-Off, Colm Kelleher, all of these people they all knew each other and what I always call them is Bigelow's club they are the people trying to work their way into the labyrinth they all had their own security clearances to one extent or another they all knew a lot about UFOs they all shared what they could share on this matter and they did it for years and they still do to the extent that they can so so here in 2002 Davis has an opportunity to meet with Wilson uh or is it 2003 2003 excuse me he has an opportunity to meet with Wilson and he goes and it's an roughly an hour or so long meeting and it's in a car and Davis either had recorded it or wrote these notes down and brings it back to the crew back to Green back to Putt-Off back to Bigelow back to Mitchell and and when Mitchell died you know in uh 2017 his papers mostly were taken by his family like his Apollo stuff and all that but the papers that had to do with NIDS the papers that had to do with consciousness that had to do with UFOs um they were going to be destroyed and the family had no interest in it but one individual and I've I've actually don't know the person's full name anyway so it's no point but I know about this person uh was able allowed legally to take a certain amount of these papers out of the house and they have some of them had been jpegged and one of those papers are the Eric Davis notes that you know were about his meeting with Thomas Wilson that confirm things like MJ12 that confirm the deep privatization of the UFO secret which we can get into that confirm Wilson's utter frustration at attempting and failing to get into this black budget uh world of special access program reverse engineering UFO tech and uh maybe even ET bodies all of that didn't come up in the the notes so all of that and I am personally waiting for more of these notes to come out I know that there are more I don't know if they're bomb shells I don't know if they're duds but I know that there's more and I think I'm hopeful that there will be more of these that come out now relating to UFO privatization I'll I'll simply before you get into that let me jump in there because one thing I want to say are you a little bit too comfortable with that have you been desensitized to that a little bit Richard because here's my point you know you've done an awesome job so this has now reached the Dolan level of credibility which you already have told us it's pretty high you need the sources you need the documents you know and now you have the documents you say ad after disclosure are we after constitution when we have these high level people it disclosing that you know this support and defend the constitution against all powers foreign and domestic which is what everyone pledges all these guys who are the military that was their pledge Edgar Mitchell that was his pledge and you can say he's a good guy or he didn't disclose enough but that was his pledge Wilson that was his pledge and they're not doing it and you know are we at a different point where we've totally given up on the idea that we need to hold these people accountable is that just kind of out the window oh man good question we're in a post-constitutional phase I mean look we're in a an upside down world where what I call this thing now legal illegality that's really what it is it's like this legal framework to to protect what is fundamentally should be illegal in any democratic oriented society so that's huge that's huge say that again I mean that's why I say you know you're awesome but some legal illegality yeah yeah calmness the calmness that you bring to that the poly side calmness you know it doesn't fully bring people into what you're saying about this point we are in this thing we call the united states I mean we're talking about really jumping past maybe I have been desensitized I've been talking about this for 20 years I mean since 9 11 I got into a lot of trouble to some at least over my 9 11 comments that's a whole other episode perhaps but I've been I've been on the other side of this for a long time and I've I don't think I've been under an illusion that we have a truly functioning democratic republican system I hold on to the dream of that because what else can I hold on to we what we're living in is a world of 24 7 global fascistic type of surveillance that in which no one will ever have an inkling the privacy ever again for the rest of our lifetimes and our grandchildren's lifetimes and I'm still trying to wrap my head around that so that's a whole other thing so we're living in a completely different world than what we were taught in our fifth grade civics class of what American life is supposed to be and that goes for any country but in terms of the secrecy of UFOs it's so it is so profound it's so deep so for example when this whole leak came out all right I wrote I got a I got a no comment from how put off and I got a no comment a month later from Kit Green and I'm just gonna say like I know both of these guys reasonably well particularly put off I've known for years and I just said you know look why don't why doesn't your group come out and own these documents because you know they're real you know it's the real deal just for posterity you're all getting up there like what are you hanging on to why are you doing this and you know all of them it's not just it's not just him it's all of them they're all in this world of clearances and they are terrified of losing their clearances all of them every last one they they don't want to acknowledge and and the funny thing about this particular document is this is Eric Davis's private notes the document itself is not a classified government document it's a private document about a classified program and legally there's nothing classified about that document like there's no reason that it should have to be classified it's a private document written by Eric Davis about a meeting he had with someone about a classified subject and yet they still won't own it because it will reflect badly on them and they don't want to lose the clearances that they've had I spoke to someone in that in that crowd a number of years ago who told me explicitly about their knowledge of deep black programs that have alien tech and alien bodies and and they this person said yeah and what what do I do with this information he said what if I told you that I know the names of like the top 10 12 15 people who are most in on this secret and and I leak that information let's say I leak it to the New York Times hey what would the New York Times do with it probably nothing but if the New York Times were to publish it it would very likely be traced back to me and I would lose all of my clearances and then I'm out of the game and so that's the game all these people are playing now then there's threats I wrote to Mitchell on one occasion about this I was writing to Edgar Mitchell a lot in 060708 and I said look you know you told me personally one time and Mitchell did an 04 he told me alone in a room he said he had two individuals at the highest level clearances who confirmed to him the existence of alien bodies and ET tech being held Mitchell said this to me in 2004 and he made this statement once or twice publicly but he said it to me and I wrote to him a few years later and said look you tell me you like my work so why don't you throw me a bone and point me in a direction that can help me I'm not asking you to give up anyone but can you just give me something and and what he wrote back was kind of amazing he said look I support what you do however the people who came to me did who gave me this information did so at great risk he said professionally personally and risk to their families and I will not essentially he will not throw them under the bus while they were still alive and he never did so risk to their families you know you fill in the blank what that means but these people there's carrot and stick for them both like the carrot is you play ball you're a team player it's like being in Goodfellas like you're a made man you get you get all of these nice little openings in your career for you if you do not play ball they bring the hammer down and however hard one of them also said this to me all right I'm not giving up names when I cannot give up a name I will not give up a name but one of them said a lot of these programs do not require you to sign an NDA or security like he says look when you get into these programs you know you don't talk about it and blood out like the mafia yeah like the mafia yeah so yeah but anyway the privatization I'll just leave you with this um there was a very good article I was led to early on in my research like 0102 by a fellow named Bill Sweetman who was an aviation writer if he's still around he um did a lot of work with Jim Goodall um on like stealth technology not UFO so much really just advanced aerospace aviation uh work Sweetman's a really good writer he wrote on the Aurora craft he wrote on the stealth fighter stealth bomber a lot of other he's a real area 51 expert and he wrote this article for Jane's international defense in 2000 early 2000 on forget the name of it black budget special access programs and it was a good analysis for mainstream journalists for sure and he talked about how the sap world is dominated was even then by private money not by do d personnel he said when I looked into this to my surprise I found that this is a totally privatized and all the security clearances are held in the private industry and you know 10 years later the washington post of all publications did a study called think america top secret uh dana miller bill arkin did that similar conclusions uh it's just last summer I'm talking with kid green about this and he says absolutely it's all when you retire from the cia or any federal group and you go into private industry your clearances go up and they become better and more numerous he said because that's what the brain power is that's where the money is that's where the power is the federal government in other words is just holding the ball for these guys and your tax dollars my tax dollars pay for the security of these privatized programs to make shit loads of money if I could say that on your show if not you'll have to edit me out um to save to make a lot of money off of exotic technology some of which I think has been acquired by through uh not our own work so um well we had we had diana walsh basolka on and you know her book america has made I mean she just directly lays it out you know here it is here's the here's the secret college you know where stuff is brought in here's the privatized silicon valley guys and there's just no reason to believe that isn't true no she got dipped right into that uh very very like and in a weird way too because we're going to come back and swing about that because the spirituality part you know she kind of gets into too with the catholic church and all that but I just wanted to close the loop on what you just said because the the privatization first and foremost it's an end run on the constitution right exactly that's really what it's about that's that's exactly it so you have a I mean this is something that's been going on since the bullet went through Abraham Lincoln's brain in 1865 if you really want to go back through american history this has been going on since that moment and um and it's just one degree after another after another and we're now in this upside down world where but and it's like um in my very first book I I brought in a quote by Nicola Machiavelli from his discourses on livi the good book the great book and he essentially said look if you really want to have a a functioning revolution like a revolution from above he says the way to do it is you've got to retain a semblance of the old forms because that's all people notice that's all that they're used to so uh he says if you you can change the fundamental structure of something but if you keep the exterior looking the same way people will almost inevitably go along and that's what's exactly happened here so we've got we still have presidents we still have supreme court we still have uh two houses of congress uh we have this system in place but the body's kind of dead and it's like in that movie alien where the thing comes out of the chest so you've got this corpse and this new thing has come out uh I called it the national security state you can call it the deep state you can call it the global financial system I mean it's something that is standing behind and much more powerful than our official political institutions and how to get control back in the name of the people is really our single most important thing and um relating to UFOs I mean it's a fascinating subject on every level to me philosophically scientifically absolutely but to me the most important thing is politically because um I'm not interested in a world where this disclosure happens to me uh in a completely controlled manner by our social betters and our political betters like I have no interest in that I just put me in a rocket ship and I'll live on the moon I don't want to live on this world um I'm interested in in getting to some level of truth so that citizens can at least have a dream of some level of sovereignty and I think the UFO secret has has seriously moved us um it's not the only thing that's created this this world that we live in of a privatized secrecy and legal illegality but it's definitely contributed a lot and and political science people to this day don't appreciate just how important it has been in creating that world I want to move on I want to talk about good et bad et because one of the things I also really respect about your work Richard is I feel like even though the political side the national security side is your swing zone you've allowed yourself to be stretched in some really important ways and you seem willing and I'm just surprised that how many people are unwilling to go over that next hill be it consciousness be it spirituality be it your unbelievable four-part interview series and maybe even grow beyond that with Chris Bledzo where he's talking about angels and we're gonna play a clip from that so you and your wife Tracy who is an experiencer I don't know does she call herself an experiencer or an abductee I mean that's something we can even pull apart I think she would probably say experienced there I think that's her go to okay she doesn't she wouldn't say that she knows she's an abductee so I would say that she she does she does believe strongly that she's had a couple of experiences with non-human intelligences well you guys did an incredible YouTube video on this that is like 80,000 views and it's just incredible in terms of its breath and covering a lot of these topics but there's someone I wanted to drill in further and I thought this would be a time to do it and I think it also pairs up well with as I was saying the recent series you've done with Chris Bledzo here's a guy we both know and like respect Grant Cameron he's been on my show a couple times I know your friends with them let me play this clip from Grant and then let's talk about that his wife suddenly wants to talk about I'd like to talk about entanglement particle entanglement and I'm thinking why would you ask us your husband is a PhD in physics he's run he run the parapsychology the the what they call the phenomenology desk at the CIA weird desk and what people have to realize is that when the CIA calls it phenomenology that is a hint as to what's going on it is not UFOs it's remote doing ghosts parapsychology uh the telepathy it's the whole ball of wax because it's all consciousness that's the ground of being it's consciousness and they know that and that's why when the Canadian government document said in 1950 that mental phenomena may be involved the top secret Canadian government documents that mental phenomena may be involved in flying saucers that's when they started the MK ultra stuff that's when they started all that because trying to figure out how does consciousness work because they had a live alien in 1947 that's how the Americans knew to tell the Canadians in 1950 the mental phenomena was involved nobody was talking to aliens in 1950 they were at damp skin Williamson would not come forward until a couple days after that mission the hydrogen bomb Betty and Barney hill would not become public from the mid 60s nobody said they were talking to aliens in public at least and so therefore how did they know that mental phenomena was involved because they had a live alien and they knew that the alien talked his telepathic and gets in your head and they went wow man if we could discover how this worked and now I know you're in New Yorker and you talk fast but no one talks as fast in a class by himself and he's out in Winnipeg Manitoba how does he do that yeah yeah like yeah where'd he get that from you know though we don't we don't quite get that grand rick it well I just want to give grand credit because as far as I know he is the first person really to key in on the significance of that phrase mental phenomena in the Willberts Smith memo that he wrote to the Canadian Department of Transport way back in 1950 you know we looked at other people have looked at other parts of that memo for years yes that the subject's more important than the H bomb and so forth but grant grant keyed in below that where this aspect of mental phenomena was was very considered very important by the US government and he uses that to catapult us into a whole bunch of stuff that jumps us right into the middle of this good ET bad ET you know Richard my my approach to this whole thing the whole skeptical approach has been from consciousness that's what I was interested in answering for myself you know who are we why are we here well let's look at what people are saying about consciousness let's look at your death experience let's look at out of body experience after death communication parapsychology you know you look at the first 200 interviews I did that's what Dean Raiden Rupert Sheldrick parapsychology people Dr. Julie Gaucho so it was interesting when I met grant and synced in I I think I was influential to grant and saying do you understand the how consciousness how we are how we are being part of the conspiracy is this idea that science continues to tell us we're biological robots in a meaningless universe while at the same time acting like we're just saying in the kind of secret legal illegality way they're doing Stargate they're doing men who stare at goats they're way beyond consciousness is an illusion is an epiphenomen of the brain and then grant like you said puts in the missing puzzle piece and goes yeah that's because in the 1950s they knew it and then that makes us rethink the whole MK ultra thing and what our orientation is to evil because there's clearly evil in MK ultra where we're trying to wipe people's minds clean and reprogram them and all this other stuff so jump us into what has been your I guess process of getting into these deeper questions and because it also gets into spirituality very very quickly and as as I already hinted at and you jumped in both feet with Chris Bledsoe so there I've laid like 50,000 things oh let's let's do it so I am and by the way I don't know what time limit you have but I I'm really enjoying this so I'll go as long as you want to go I'm having a great time here I will start by telling a story that I have told once in a while but not that often and for me it was a defining moment in my life I was I think 20 or 21 years old at the time um and you know I've always thought about these types of issues of free will and determinism and spirituality and I I think a lot of people have I'm one who's always thought about it and I went through a very strong period where I was I guess I was an atheist I was 19 20 years old um and I had my reasons all laid out as to why I did not believe in any kind of transcendental reality I thought that was all based on wish fulfillment um I just started reading Freud I remembered and a lot of other philosophers and existentialists you know how it is and I thought well that's all just uh you know we believe in an afterlife because we're afraid of death and and we don't want to come to terms so and then I had a dog and I was feeding my dog I can see this in my mind even now so I've got a can of dog food and I'm opening up the can and he knows exactly what I'm doing he's watching me he's excited and because he knows that I'm about to feed him and and I'm observing him as he's eating and I'm thinking well he's a very intelligent creature like he knows me he knew that there was that can represented dog food um and plus I knew like he was aware of many things that I wasn't aware of like smells sounds and but I thought here's something he doesn't know he doesn't know how the food got into that can like he'll never he'll never grasp that because dog brain like it just doesn't work like that uh he doesn't know what the stars are if he looks up at them he doesn't know what the moon is he didn't know that he's been taken out of his natural environment and all these other things and I thought well gee Richard you're so damn smart so your dog's at this level you're at this level what's here what's there what's there what's there and and it suddenly occurred to me that my insistence on this complete like no transcendental reality I thought how ridiculously uh arrogant for me to say that and then of course as you go through life and you realize you go back and you look at people in the past and everyone's always believed that they had it all figured out like everyone go back to ancient Egypt 5 000 years ago talked to an Egyptian peasant living on the Nile and he'd tell you yeah when that sun thing goes down that's the god Ra and he goes below the disc of the earth that's shaped like a coin and he's going to be battling the demons of the underworld you better hope he wins because if he doesn't the world will end like that's what they believed we could look back and think well that's really quite wrong but we now believe we've got it all figured out like clearly we don't and more fundamentally our brains themselves are the limitation like our brains are amazing they can allow us to engage in all kinds of incredible ideas and realities but they have their limits and in fact we understand some the limits are we organize realities spatially and temporally do space and time actually exist the way that our minds tell us well even guys like Emmanuel Kant 200 plus years ago said nope not really and Einstein and others kind of confirmed that so we know that our brains organize realities so with that said I look at anomalies in our world today as you I think you know I published a couple of books by Mike Clelland the owl guy and Mike Mike's amazing his work to me Mike is the true heir to people like Jack Ballet and John Keel in terms of looking at this synchronistic world that we live in with this meta intelligence that really does seem at times to be guiding us like where each character is in a video game it's like someone out there saying yeah I've got I have Alex Sipras for a couple of years I'll have Dolan let's have them do an interview in early 2020 okay cool let's put that on the calendar like I I whimsically wonder things like this because there are very bizarre very bizarre anomalies and synchronicities that happen in this world and I don't pretend that I know what it is but here's what I why I'm getting into this because consciousness clearly is important in some fundamental way to this nature of our reality there is no question in my mind anymore we've done enough genuine scientific experimentation that can support that and and secondly we have in an enormous hole in our general understanding of reality itself like there's things we don't get and so in that hole are things like UFOs in that hole are things like um you know synchronicities and spirituality and uh maybe even like you know definitely like psychic phenomena um absolutely fit in there so we don't get it yet and I'm hopeful that we might one day have a better understanding of it um I don't consider it paranormal I consider it I consider those things normal but we don't have a full understanding of it so back to Grant and his whole focus on everything is consciousness well you know what maybe even before I'll let you jump in yeah I was gonna say why don't we throw I was just doing a little out of order let's throw Chris Bledsoe on the pile fantastic again folks you've got to listen to these series of interviews but before we do do you want to just intro Chris a little bit and tell people you know who he is a little bit of the backstory a little bit of the story of this four-part interview series you did and then I'm gonna play the clip that really gets to the point of Angel because I want to hone in on this good et bad et and get to the really big stuff I mean is this God but first who is Chris Bledsoe and what did you do in this interview series Chris we may do a fifth part by the way I'm hopeful that we'll do that but Chris lives in North Carolina he's a guy who built built homes for living as a nice big family lots of kids and had he's had a near-death experience as a child which I think was significant but essentially as an adult starting in 2007 had a remarkable UFO encounter with his son and three other men while they were fishing and in the aftermath of that had has had a series of other very very incredible encounters I mean the thing about his case that makes it so difficult is the stories seem really fantastic to particularly a modern temperament like encounters with what appears to be like an angelic being multiple times and balls of light and like and he is convinced by the way that these are very benevolent beings and he's had them repeatedly but what what makes his story hard to to dismiss for me is a the man himself which I realize is not a very good source of proof like I really like him and I trust him but on top of that he's had a lot of corroboration from other individuals who have been around him when things have gotten crazy that includes Grant Cameron that includes Chase Kletzky that includes John Alexander and I'm sure there are other people as well Diana Walsh Palsalka oh yes well that's they're very close and in here very close as as is revealed in your interview series he is the real deal in terms of you know you were talking about ATIP and being being a case that the United States government was very very interested in they were on it Bufan was on it did a real head trip and have to wonder about some kind of covert activity again all this is spelled out in the interview because I can even see your kind of trepidation and talking about the angel stuff but that makes it even more significant that Dolan was able was willing to go there so without further ado let me play the angel clip and then let's talk about good ET bad ET and the church don't want to believe it they think it's demonic the Mufana of the world rejected it because of these individuals that were controlling the thing and here I'm stuck and I've got these entities telling me you got to tell your story you got to tell your story tell what you know and I told Mufana I believe there were angels I'll just put it right out there and to do today I'm pretty sure that's what we're experiencing maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so okay there it is there it is indeed and again I just re-emphasize this I've done so to say the same thing over and over again listen to Richard's four parts this is a UFO case of the first order you know has multiple eyewitnesses reported consistent with all the other not all the other but with many other UFO cases this isn't a one-off kind of thing and then he drops the angel bomb on us which we've heard in various ways that hey we're really talking about God here in some way or something close to or associated with what we honor most is spirituality what do you think Richard it's it's amazing having talked with him and I'll just point out those four interviews I felt that I really um I told Chris I said I want to I want to get the story out logically and thoroughly and you have to allow me to ask you questions that are going to challenge you but I want to give you ultimately the opportunity to tell your story and we developed a very I think a very gentle rapport back and forth and so I was very pleased about that in terms of his um his account of things he challenges me to be perfectly honest like my instinct is to I don't like these types of cases my instinct is I want I want a material physical nuts and bolts gaze to deal with I'm not gonna lie like what I got into 25 years ago is this idea that there's a physical phenomenon that's out there that there are very likely beings of some sort that are running it they don't seem to be us they're probably physical maybe they've got magical type technology that makes them seem spiritual like this is how I would think it through and as time has gone by that has been challenged and Chris without doubt has challenged it very very strongly for me so um you know I'm at the point now in my life I'm almost 60 which is shocks me I'm 57 and uh boy a lot of water's gone under the bridge in the years that I've done this and I would say I'm at a point in my life where um I actually do believe in a dimension of reality beyond this physical realm that we live in and um I'll tell I'll share a story that I have actually I've told on my website on the members site but I've not said this publicly and I'm happy to say it here my father died just over a year ago he was a month before he turned 80 in December of 2018 right uh he and I were quite close his name was also Richard and I mean I had a very kind of tight relationship with him his whole life he was a retired in New York City cop um worked at the world trade center and had September 11th off that day among other things the man he shared his job with was killed that day but my dad and I were always close and he died on December 2nd of 2018 um living about 150 miles away from me I've spoken with him on the phone earlier that day and I didn't expect he was in the hospital he was not feeling well but no one thought he was going to die um and then in that evening and around 8 20 in the evening I was sitting on the couch next to Tracy we were both working on our laptops and I had just had two little ceiling lights installed like a few months earlier in my living room and they were on a dimmer setting a dim setting and Tracy noticed at first she looked up and she's look at those lights they're going crazy they're going bright dim bright dim bright dim bright dim and me I've you know I got it all worked out like god stupid lights what's going on with these there and I get up and I'm staring at the lights and I'm watching them freaking like these lights are freaking out I'm thinking I got I've got that wiring myself I got to know exactly what it was I had a blices contractor would stall them I watched them go in they were rock solid and I turned the light on and off a few times and jammed the switch up and down the dimmer setting and that stopped it 15 minutes later my sister called me to tell me that our dad had died 15 minutes earlier and and I think about that I'm like all right so that's just a coincidence so some of your really skeptical guests who've been on here in the past would say oh it's just a coincidence but how many times do you have to have a coincidence like that to think something happened here now what really got me thinking was how the hell would my father have done that would he have flown instantly 150 miles over the New York state through a way gotten into the wiring of my home and shouted hey Richie take a look at this like is that what he was doing or how did he arrive and know like if you want to go down this road to go to those lights which had just been installed and which were on a dim setting and to play with them like how does that whole thing work like I don't know how that works but but there's something in our physics and yes I'm going to just say I choose to believe that somehow though my father's death and that light phenomenon are related I don't know how it's related I don't know who did that or what that was but that tells me or it hints to me that's just one more example of our world giving us these hints that there's something much bigger going on here and and I'm with Grant in the sense that and I'm with Chris Bledsoe in the sense that I don't think that it's all negative but I'm not with I don't know I don't know where Grant stands on this actually but I wouldn't be with him if he were to say it's all positive like I don't believe that I mean Stephen Greer would say it's all positive too and I strongly disagree with that I think that's just foolish so I think you know that's almost to me the third dimension of it because I want to recap what you talked about which I find so intriguing the first dimension isn't the proper word forgive me but the first question that pops to mind is what is the interface with our physical reality yeah because we're interested in that we have this kind of curious engineering mind how did he make the lights shift like right exactly and the second I think question that pops up is what is the technology of the consciousness interface and I think that's particularly interesting because when we look at et and we start looking at the cases there's clearly as Grant pointed out in that clip we played from the 1950s we understood there's mental telepathy is the means of communication we go oh shit we don't know how to do that but apparently they do and they have it like an app on their iPhone so there's a technology component to consciousness that we just totally don't get and it also relates to this time space thing that we don't get but then the third dimension of it which you just just touched on and I think is so fascinating and I really want to get to it because it gets to the heart of the video that you did with Tracy and that's the good versus evil the moral imperative it's so challenging because we've all gone through you know you said you went through an atheistic phase any thinking person doesn't go through an atheistic phase because most of us are fed with this kind of narrow christian dogma get on the arc kind of stuff but when we blast past that we're still faced with is there good and bad and how does that work you talked about Grant let me play what Grant has to say about that and then I want to get your take and then I'll offer my take on it there's good and bad there is a moral difference you know take the most extreme example the guy who's taking little kids and cutting them up and selling their body parts and sexually molesting that in my mind is is bad it's evil and then there were there's a bunch of shades in between and then there's some really holy good people that I don't know how they do it but they keep all their shit together and they really do it how's your universe is is there good and bad because some people in the consciousness camp say well there's really no good and bad at all just kind of you know well if you go to the noon stuff no if you get into reincarnation it's all experience if you because what the mistake you make is you did it in that sentence you say okay there's these guys to cut up little people or whatever okay and then there's these good people who basically have it all together and I would go to don't have to quote the bible but we with the whole thing with the prostitute Jesus said lead he who's perfect cast the first stone all you have you do not have good people and bad people you do not have good aliens and bad aliens you have good deeds are there good deeds in there there there is according to Ray Hernandez oh shoot I didn't mean to cut that off but I did so let's just let's just leave it right there I do have to give a shout out to my friends at grammar who hosted this conversation between Grant and I but you get the gist of it what do you think oh man you ever read the The Grand Inquisitor by Dostoevsky yes I'm aware of it I can't say that all the classics I just have awareness it's an amazing so the two brothers are debating one is a pious priest to be and one is an atheist intellectual and the atheist wrote this story The Grand Inquisitor and basically he was talking about his his his belief where he says look I don't believe in a god I don't believe that there's any any salvation enough that could justify you know the kinds of crimes that torturing children or killing children or abusing people in such a horrible way like there's no when you take someone who's innocent and you do such a horrible thing and you're telling me god forgives all Ivan the brother says I don't want that god I rebel against that god and you know grant grants I I've never resolved this myself I mean honestly I can tell you that I've struggled with it like I believe in my heart that there's good and evil I do and I know evil when I see it and I know good when I see it but I get Grant's point here like you know our world is a little dot it's a little dot and when you step back you can see there's this grand movement happening and and when we do terrible things why do we do terrible things is it because we because you could say maybe we lack we lack the knowledge of the greater the greater good I don't know where I stand on that I may be struggling with that till the day I die I mean I can see both sides of it I think in my daily life I'm absolutely one of the people who sees been an evil so on a practical level there's good and on a practical level there's evil and I have no problem doing after evil people is it possible that ET is representative of that dichotomy in individual cases because I don't know you know are there bad ET's who are I think when people when people deny this I think like what did you just like fall off the turnip truck like how how naive do you have to be so I can imagine if we went back in history 2000 years to uh or 3000 years like ancient ancient Greece you know 2500 years ago and in our nice clothing with our little iPhones and our technology and our shiny teeth and our nice you know whatever we've got and we talked to the Greek people there and they'd be like wow they've got their shit together you must have figured all of your problems out like you probably don't even have any war and we just look at each other and like don't say a word the fact is advanced technology and capabilities clearly we have learned does not mean that we are any better or different ethically than those people we we have changed in a lot of ways it's true like the overt kind of brutality that's gone away we're we're transforming ourselves uh physiologically and evolutionarily because of civilization that's something I'd love to talk about because I think it's affected our psychic abilities um to the worst but but but but basically we're still human beings we're still aggressive we're supposed to be aggressive by the way that's a that's a canard that like though we're all supposed to be peace loving and all that nonsense that's that's stupid in my opinion like you have to have aggression if you want to survive in a world like you have to be able to fight you have to be able to defend it if nothing else against wild animals you know you've got you have to be able to do that that requires certain qualities particularly traditionally in men that is testosterone that is aggression that's like that's what you do to survive and to what we're seeing this is I'm getting off track here but we're seeing our civilization really siphoning those qualities out of men and they're siphoning other qualities out of women as well um but the fact is back to good and bad if we were to go back to that ancient period those people might be fooled into thinking that we've got it all figured out and we don't have it all figured out and so if we move ahead and we look at these other species that are out there that have abilities that we lack the real danger the foolish danger is that people will think oh well yeah they would have they have to be good because otherwise they would have destroyed us by now which is what you hear Stephen Greer saying and he's been saying forever you know we would know if they were aggressive they would have shown that to which I would certainly beg to differ I don't think that's a logical point whatsoever there's lots of ways uh there's lots of reasons that any life form should at least if not be mistrustful then at least be cautious when dealing with a new life form because the fact is uh I'm not a utopian I'm a realist and what a realist says is that all life forms and all species have their own goals and it's not always win win by the way that's that's another bullshit ideology that we've taken on in the last couple of hundred years in our society that oh it's everyone can win all the time I would say win win happens sometimes it can happen and sometimes it doesn't happen it all depends on the circumstances so I don't know if these ETs are evil or uh some of them or if they're just following their own imperative for their own species and doing what they do which might might damage our interests like that's totally possible well let me jump over and play devil's advocate or it might help us you know and and I guess let and play the clip but I would just say I'm not confident that we have a whole lot of information on the motivations of these beings I've talked in depth to David Jacobs I've talked in depth to the love and light crowd as well and like everyone's got their own take on this and I'm not convinced that anyone really has nailed it fully so that I so that I sit back and think oh yes this is the person who's got it correct like I just I haven't gotten to that point yet I think David David Jacobs is really interesting had him on the show a couple times had a kind of threaded debate with him and Mary Rodwell who you would kind of call more of the love and love oh Mary well yes yeah and and but I I love respect Mary Rodwell because I respect her methodology her protocol seems solid she seems very aware of that you know of of how to do the clinical practice in terms of um hypnosis but she was fooled by the firefighter who turned himself blue on Skype just gotta say that was a whole ridiculous but you just run you just kind of run the numbers it what I was going to really say for me at the end of that is you know I thought Mary was making a really good case and David is making a really good case too and then I asked Mary and I said David is insist on one thing that it is a program and she paused and goes well yeah it is a program I was like well what what do you mean it's a program there's an agenda there's an initiative they are trying to accomplish something I don't see how that fits with your overall narrative but let me digress further because yeah yeah I'm friend with Ray Hernandez the Beyond UFO people they wrote that book and Edgar Mitchell Foundation guy super nice guy and the one thing that that Ray has at this point is he has data and you can not like his data or you can argue with the methods of his that that he used for collecting that data yes and yes so I would just say yes and yes for me but anyway I'm not sure I'm not I think you'd have to really drill into that you know he has now partnered with Dr. Jeffrey Long who is a radiation oncologist from Louisiana who has compiled the largest database of near death experience and having spoken with Jeff who's New York Times bestselling author and very accomplished scientific researcher a lot of people kind of have negative things disparaging things to say about those surveys but they don't do it in a very scientific way if their criticism is not scientific because I always remind people that you know if you want to talk about pain research it's experiential if you want to talk about depression research grief research so we have a pretty understood methodology for collecting organizing experience so you look at the way that Ray did it I don't find a lot of holes in his methodology is his data set as complete as it needs to be are people being left out of the conversation that would add a different flavor to it I think that is possibly true and I've been very direct in telling Ray that and say don't wind up on the wrong side of this by pushing your agenda too far but and there is a definite agenda that's being pushed on that by that book which I'm uncomfortable with I don't I don't think I think you have to back that up I think you'd have to back that up report that the idea that there's an agenda because what they would say is that the agenda and Grant Cameron's right there with him right I mean he is part of that project he would say that the agenda if you will fell out of the data now I know that to be true of the near-death experience research and geez like I say please I have too many interviews with trusted academic peer reviewed scholars has been over 200 period papers on near-death experience and I get the same bullshit from skeptics all the time they just don't know the data they don't know the methodology they don't know the researchers and then they say oh that's a dreaded agenda driven and I'm like who has the agenda not these guys you know well I want to jump in so I actually agree with that last statement you make and I think skeptics are way way they they're funny because they don't realize how ignorant they are my my only critique I I think beyond UFOs has a lot of does have merit to it so I don't want to just dismiss the whole thing but what I don't like about it is this is my understanding maybe you can correct me and I've not spoken with ray so I'll just say that but that it was it's all self-reported experiences and without without any real investigation so you and I both I have spoken with countless people who've volunteered their experiences to me and they've told me their story and I'll just tell you like on a personal level a lot of those people seem very credible to me and a lot of them do not seem credible to me a lot of them do not seem credible to me and a lot of them frankly seem mentally unstable and mentally ill and this is something no one ever talks about but it's definitely a reality and the other thing is a lot of it is very ideologically driven and I guess I'll just say like new age ideology so a huge from what I could gather a significant portion of the respondents to that survey and I don't know this for a fact but I they seem to be from basically Southern California maybe Sedona very like new age cultural centers now I know that's not entirely true and and I don't know what the numbers are but it strikes me as very high percentage so you've got a very strong ideological component already going into that where all of those people probably almost every last one of them will say yeah our space brothers our galactic federation are here to help us I have a nice collection the little bit that I've that I've looked into his research and spoken with Ray a couple times and again I'm pretty pretty well versed in how this research works and one thing I have to do is kind of dispel the notion that if you do the survey right that shouldn't come into play so we can then look at the methodology that they use and say hey their methodology failed in this respect like you're saying the sample size was not big enough the sample size was skewed or biased in this way or that way but there's ways to get around that there's ways to control that because they do it all the time like I'm saying if you're doing a research on pain you're asking people the same questions we rely on that we have a method of doing it see now in the people he's had on board who helped him Dr. Leo Sprinkel Dr. Rudy Shields Harvard physicist I mean he has a panel of very smart people that yeah they're good people and again like I'm going over this a million times like in parapsychology research and I remember Rupert Sheldrick a biologist from Cambridge and he's done all this research and then the skeptics and then you talk to Rupert and he's a pretty calm guy but then when you really get him wound up he says you don't think I thought about that the first five minutes after I thought of this thing I thought how am I going to control for sample size how am I going to control for you know being skewed this way or that way so people who know how to do this do it correctly so the question would be someone needs to dig into that and say here are the faults I see in the methodology and I just throw one other thing it's like people say you can't do online surveys well there's been all sorts of published work that suggests that online surveys are no less reliable than in-person surveys depending on the subject and by the way I guess we should just tell people I'm sure many listeners are aware but this study essentially concludes that the vast majority of of what we might call alien or ET encounters are very positive very benign I think it's like 80% or more are very positive right something like that by the by the respondents and something like 5000 individuals I think gave their data on this so it's a it's a fairly large survey and and I don't think that you can't do online surveys I don't think that that's necessarily the case but for something like ET experiences I would be a little careful you know when I talk with David Jacobs for example about this so you might imagine David just would roll his eyes at that and think oh my god they've got it all wrong but his reasoning is as such he would say because when you're dealing with these beings they deal in deception and he said when I when I put someone through hypnotic regression I've got to go several times with them I've got to go deep until I can expect to actually reach something past all the mental healing that's there now you can take what he says and say well you're just that's just your way of of peeling away whatever resistance to get to your preconceived notion of what what that is who knows what is true here I don't I don't really know but I have I don't know how much stock I put in that that that free study beyond UFOs I'm just not sure and it does strike me as a bit strident I have to I have to say like the way they can come across Ray can come across as strident and I think and I've said that in person I'll say it on the air I don't think that helps him or helps what he's trying to do he sounds a bit like evangelistic for his point of view he should be about that he should be about the data and and that's how near-death experience science has advanced because it's always about the data and you take criticisms of the data to heart and you make the data stronger and stronger and I think you'll see that in the future it is a first step and I do have to say you know the other thing if you drill into the data which is always what I do with with Ray when I talk to him I say Ray yeah but you got my you got 15 or I forget what it is I think by my count it was above 20% you got my lab what the F is a my is my lab doing in there if this is if this is God if you're going to be in in your near-death in your near-death experience life review when ET has to go through their life review what are they going to say about that my lab experience what do they say about the reptilians raping you know some some woman what are they going to say about that what does the ET look like in their life review I I think that that data is out there and I agree with you to the respect that I that data doesn't come through enough in Ray's work it is worrisome to me that data has to be in there because we we do understand that to be part of this experience uh I was I think yes I agree I'm glad you mentioned that I think that um the whole good versus bad ET thing a lot of it is guided by our you could almost say our our political orientation liberal or conservative I mean it's almost that simple I think people who are by their natural personality would consider themselves very liberal are much more likely in my experience looking at this for 20 years to look at these beings as part of you know the galactic community and as good and these are the people who are I find more likely to interpret their telepathic downloads as a positive experience and and so on and I think those who are more inclined to interpret this phenomenon in a as an adversarial or negative way tend to be a little bit more conservative in their overall orientation that's my own observation I know there's exceptions and the other the other thing that to distinguish is physical versus non-physical contact so when people tell me that they get a download or they have a non-physical encounter I don't I don't always dismiss it but you've got to really bring me some reason to believe whereas opposed to people who talk about physical encounters I'm much more interested in those and when you look at the physical encounters that you know see I'm not sure about your bias I'm not sure about your bias there Richard I mean you're to go back to your flickering lights I mean I've heard this thing over and over again that is a non-physical you know interface I know you got me you got me there I'm gonna admit that but it and it is a bias my bias is toward physical material encounters I'm not gonna deny that so maybe that's something I'll have to keep working on I'm admitting that here but but I'll also say that a lot of people who have come to me with encounter stories I guess all I would say is they're not they're not always credible people and it's not something that people ever like we don't like to discuss this in this field we don't like to talk about the fact that there's a lot of seriously damaged individuals I hate to say this but there are a lot of damaged people who are drawn to this field sometimes because they've had experiences but sometimes sometimes though because they're damaged and like it's hard to distinguish like what what is what and and I don't know if I'm relevant be able to figure it out but so I have I have sympathy and I have I have compassion for all of those people because you can tell they're in pain but beyond that I have to try to get to like what is true and I don't I don't know how to get to the truth of some of those stories you know what went back in the days on a new bud Hopkins I was at his place once and he showed me all of his collection of photographs of scoop marks and mark body marks and all of that he had a huge collection of that bud was all about getting physical evidence and to whatever extent possible even even though he did hypnotic regression that was his his predilection and that's that remains mine because it's it's something that I I guess I can say I know how to do like I know how to to deal with the physical world having said all of that I've been struggling for the last decade or more and trying to incorporate a true understanding of consciousness into my understanding of ufology and of the world itself so I'm open to it I don't throw it out but I I try to I try to treat it carefully I don't I'm not someone who's ever just going to embrace it because it seems like a good idea we have to find out a way to be I don't know how to be evidence-based with some of this consciousness type of evidence maybe what rays on onto is a good idea like you get you do survey and you get as many people as you can get but are are all you doing is just getting social you know social prejudices and social ideologies instead like is that all you're getting and I suspect that a lot of it is what what he's getting is that he's getting just people offering an ideological take on maybe an interesting dream experience they had like something that might not can be considered very strong evidence is being considered evidence in some of these accounts do you think that's that's an unreasonable objection or well is there something to that you know I I guess I'd go back rewind it a little bit back to what you said is we need somebody we need both sides we need somebody who's out there willing to collect the evidence the best we can because you know the thing about the God thing the angel thing with Chris Bledsoe or the God thing that that Grant Cameron mentions which is really I think a punt when I say and I grew with you you know say well there's no good or evil and you know look at Michael Newton in between logs and it all works out and we're here for a purpose it's like I need something more than that buddy you're gonna have to explain the rape and torture of little kids system that you're gonna have to explain it to me tell that to their parent tell that to their kids parent yeah tell that to tell that to yourself if you are a parent tell that to yourself if you're a victim if you have been perpetually this has been portrayed on you don't we need to hear and respect your story we don't need to take it and then you know turn it into something that we imagine it to be inside of our thing but I just I gotta say like I think a lot of those people and I don't know about Grant in particular and he is my friend but I think a large number of those people who have that opinion I really wonder how how much of the world they've experienced I truly wonder like have they really experienced truly evil people there's a lot of folks in this world who've lived very insulated lives and they they live in their own kind of bubble so I'm not inclined you know yes I understand in the greater philosophical you step take 10 steps back you could see the big picture there's no good there's no evil okay you can make that argument but in our world I think there's definitely good and there is definitely evil but it does get complicated I mean that's why it's so interesting and I think it's more than just fun it's it's important to kind of switch back to the Chris Bledsoe story right and say here's someone who's run the gauntlet done all the right stuff in terms of trying to understand his experience and seems to genuinely have come to the conclusion that is unfortunately for you very much in line with what Ray is saying because that is kind of that's Chris Bledsoe story Chris Bledsoe story is repeated over and over again in Ray's research which is I was traumatized by this I thought it was the worst thing in the world and over time I came I came to understand it as part of my path part of my spiritual awakening and part of my spiritual journey and that opens us up like to you and to me it opens us up to all sorts of abuse we've heard that over and over again from every guy who's spinning some cult or new age religion or even old world religion as a means to get us and manipulate us and control us but at the same time I think we have to remain open to the possibility that there may be some fundamental truth to that and that's why I've been so interested in the near-death experience because it does you know just to recap people listen to show for this like a thousand times but the brain is out of the equation the near-death experience experience science has brought us to the point where we can say that we have resuscitation studies we have studies of people who are under extreme anesthesia and cardiac arrest we know that the brain is out of the equation there and now these people are having these kind of encounters and experiences that have this overlap with the et experience but also have this transcendent chris blood so angel god kind of thing going on too so we're kind of stuck with having to deal with both and I love that you're driving a stake in the ground on one hand and saying I do have to hold the Dolan line of evidence and at the other hand you're still doing these freaking interviews and you're going to do part five with chris blood so that's awesome it's totally true and you know what's funny is when I said a little while ago like there's good and there's evil I realized like I better be careful with that because like that's that can be a very I mean I'm realizing I've contradicted myself probably about countless times in this interview already and by stating that there's absolute good and evil well actually I didn't say that I said there's relative good and evil but I still have to be very careful about that because when you think about international relations for example which is a very big interest of mine um you want to be really careful when you start equating the interests of one nation with good and another Asian nation with evil like that's a really bad bad mistake to make so I don't like to make that mistake so I just I think on a personal level there are evil things that are done and on a there are good things that are done and I I would maintain that but um we do have to be careful like I don't like this is why I don't like zealots and I don't I don't like fanatics of almost any sort they scare me and by the way I think we're living in an era where people have really become zealots in all different ways and I think it's by design I think there that's you know not to get political because I don't play that but I think that's the role of Donald Trump that's why I think Donald Trump you know and and several people have come out and said this this is an original but I think both those candidates were suitable to a certain group that cares about that stuff at a higher level Trump and Hillary I think both Trump and Hillary were acceptable to a certain ruling class that is the techno do-world-order banking finance intelligence stuff that I don't fully understand but seems to always be in play whether it's 9-11 or whatever it is but I think that one advantage of Trump for that certain class above the classes is that it created incredible divisiveness so that people don't think about the fact that the Patriot Act was rubber stamped at the same time they were doing the charade about impeachment or the rest of this divisiveness is a good tool if you were playing the game if you're trying to and I'm getting into this political rant which I just never do but no I think you have some good points I have a different take on Trump than you do but I do believe absolutely that the divisiveness is something that's definitely played up and this is something by the way that the United States intelligence community is the master of doing around the world but through what we call color revolutions and what we're now seeing is that that model is almost being is being brought back here to the United States a way of emphasizing cultural or linguistic or ideological differences to divide people so that's definitely happening um yeah I look at Trump a little differently than some of my very like left-leaning friends look at him um but I I mean he's not Jesus and he's not Hitler 2.0 like I don't either of those extremes he's um he's a self-serving politician who probably didn't even expect to run for president like I think I think he did it from from I've heard this from two sources uh he did it basically to increase his brand his personal brand but I actually don't believe that he was the tool of um of the elites I think that would have for the Republican party I would have thought Jeb Bush would have been much more amenable I mean the kind of the straight-up neocon globalist type of model which America's had for for many many generations Democrat and Republican both fulfilled that and and Trump kind of didn't as a candidate he was actually um you know he was as a candidate he was truly outsider well I'm gonna push this just a tiny bit further and we're gonna wrap it up because you've been super generous with your time but it's a political the political analyst in you one thing I've always kind of thrown out there is that I think we we can go down the wrong path if we understand these maneuvers as being proactive versus reactive in a lot of cases so it's not like somebody's working this is my take and I want to give your opinion of it it's not like someone is running a grand chess board it's more like they're letting the game kind of play out a little bit and they're going oh what's our next move from here they're like jumping into somebody else's game that plays out and the same thing like you mentioned at the very beginning of the show about disclosure they don't know which way disclosure is they don't know if it's going to hit but once it does oh what do we do with this oh you know what we can do this with it we can do that with I don't know I agree with you I think that's right I think it's there's a lot of reactivity I'm glad you brought this up I don't I don't believe that I don't think there's like a 50-year plan on this I don't think there's even a 10-year plan on this but I do think that there are contingencies that are in place and for example in terms of disclosure what I would what I would argue I've been saying this for a while now especially like the last six months where my take on this is really crystallize a little bit more I think what we're seeing are factions within the elite groups so there is probably a disclosure friendly faction and there's definitely a disclosure unfriendly faction and I think that TTSA is caught like they're right in the they're in the midst of that they've got a couple of people on their side within you could say the deep state that are helping and they have enemies they've got lots of enemies in there as well think of it this way like they we know that there's at least six not just three videos but at least six videos and probably more that they know about that they have not been able to get all of those other ones declassified they got three declassified a couple of years ago and that's it they've gotten nothing ever since and it seems that Elizondo got a lot of that stuff released through somewhat deceptive means John Greenwald's done some research on this and uses that to criticize Elizondo from some of these emails in 2017 what I would say is Elizondo is just being a little weasel wording with what these videos were not describing them as UFOs or UAP in order to get them cleared I think the people in the Pentagon who cleared them probably didn't fully realize what they were clearing and so then they were cleared and the damage was done they weren't supposed to be cleared that I give them credit for frankly I think that's a kind of a smooth move but I don't think that's going to happen anymore so I think the gig is up for them and I don't think they're going to get anything else cleared but but so I think they're fighting their own little game here and I don't it's not a CIA up I I don't care how many times some random hold on because you just you just laid you just laid an awesome classic little Dolan factoid there that fits into the puzzle and kind of turns it in a way and I commend you for that but you know come on Richard it is all a Psyop it's just all what because why explain because what is the goal you gave a presentation it all depends on what you define as Psyop because we had this like pre-interview this is a good roundup we'll come full circle we had this this pre-interview thing and you were like hey man Alex don't push that Psyop narrative on me it just doesn't fit in this case which I love I love the pushback I really do but if you're going to push the Psyop then then you've got it at least my point here's my point here's my point then I listen to your disclosure presentation in Copenhagen and I'm like oh no we Dolan and I are in the total on the same page in this you know this is manipulated this is done for a purpose this is purposefully done to you know get this reaction now so it all comes down to what you define as a Psyop and I think you put it in very stark terms at the beginning where you said we're a post-democracy post-constitution well shit in that now that everything is a Psyop is a means to control and manipulate something so it really yeah okay so I guess yes to that um but who's Psyop so is is TTSA doing a Psyop do we just want to call that a Psyop if we do then we're kind of losing the meaning of the of the word they've got their own spin yes Peter Lavenda Peter Lavenda Psyop Psyop Psyop why like why because I know Peter I spoke over the years I don't know Peter uh uh directly but to me he's kind of come out as saying lifelong player lifelong uh spook associated with that and his story just doesn't wash his idea of you know the whole thing about I met Tom DeLong I didn't know as him and we got together and said we have to blow the lid off this we the only place we can go is the CIA it just it just doesn't ring true but I've digressed there because you you don't have to agree with that no one has to agree with that just sounds very very suspicious well okay but when no one has ever done the only thesis I've ever heard from anyone who says that this is a Psyop particularly an intelligence community Psyop is uh for the reason of amplifying fear by talking about a threat a threat from these UAP Elizondo does say that quite a lot he loves that word threat on the TV show unidentified he loves the word threat or potential threat he does it all the time Pentagon and so that the idea is then that they're using this threat narrative to frighten the public and you know take then take your pick increase defense spending for what to protect against aliens or to do the UFO alien reveal and scare the shit out of people so that they come running to the state for governor like that's basically the thesis and I just I'm not persuaded by that at all not even remotely when Elizondo is talking about a threat I feel like I'm reading my first two volumes of UFOs in a national security state it's got the exact same what did I do in those books I focused on military encounters with unknown objects that were indeed seen as a potential threat when you have unknown objects hanging out over sensitive nuclear installations that are not supposed to be there where aircraft go to intercept and they zip off and do their thing well hell what is that supposed to be like any reasonable person responsible for air defense would have to consider that at least a potential threat the reason I focused on those in my books is for several reasons one because they have a paper trail which is important to they prove the US government's lying about his lack of interest in UFOs but three the fact that you've got these military encounters it's like almost a way of shaking the public and getting their attention it's like you're not even looking at UFOs you don't give a shit about UFOs you're not talking about it but take a look your military is being baffled by these again and again so I don't think it's an illegitimate approach I do I do think you can overplay it absolutely but but my take on why they bring up the threat they're they are desperate TTSA is at a point of desperation right now like people don't even see this all right um they can't get Congress to do inquiries they had they had a congressional briefing well that's good but they haven't gone any further as far as anyone can tell they're not getting they've get a little bit of press follow-up some Trump White House isn't doing squad as far as we know you can see like these guys are doing everything they can do to say hey pay attention we've got a threat here which okay maybe it's a tactic it's not an it's that's a spin it's a political battle it's absolutely is it a PSYOP I don't I think if someone's going to argue that what TTSA is doing is a PSYOP they have got to come up with a better argument than what I've heard so far like a CIA like um one one individual talking about their volume but when you're turning up the volume on the threat right and you're turning up the volume on the global issue which is the other card they're playing you know we can call it different terms but number one it's political like you just said anyone who doesn't see it as a political thing it is political and there's this guy who sits in the White House right now and I can't get over when I hear these conversations and no one ever you're you're talking about Trump you know and I'm not saying I'm pro-trump or against Trump but you can't have this conversation and not talk like there isn't another side to this there isn't another group you know and often that's kind of the conversation like we're just gonna kind of carry on like so number one that's it so the globalization thing and the threat thing to me you're when you're turning up the volume on those you're playing PSYOP well I I mean it depends on how you want to define what a PSYOP is to me a PSYOP is explicitly something that I would associate with the intelligence community manipulating public opinion through the media for a particular end or goal like that's classically you know Operation Mockingbirds throughout all of its decades of operation and media control which we all know is is reality those are PSYOPs PSYOPs can be done against domestic populations they can be done against foreign populations it's a form of hybrid warfare which the US loves to say that the Russians are masters at but the US itself is the master of hybrid warfare so if I look at TTSA's operation as a PSYOP someone's gonna have to provide some reasonable evidence more than the fact of saying well some of these people are X CIA like that's sorry like that's a weak argument that's a weak argument we're at a point in in our world that I it's disturbing to me that it's almost like post-modernism has invaded ufology to this extent where we are now arguing over someone's bona fides and what we think they mean rather than listening to the damn words that are coming out of their mouth like where I don't find a lot of people listening to very smart articles by Chris Mellon for example that he's had on the hill and he's had in other places on their website in fact the TTSA site he's put some very interesting information on there instead what people are doing is they think they're smart enough to analyze behind his words into his true motivations whatever they think those are that's post-modern in my view that's like taking critical analysis to such an extreme that you're actually not listening to the other person and what they're actually saying to me the most important thing is actually listening to what is being said and to listening to what the information that is being provided that's vastly more important than all these people who think oh yeah I know what they're trying to do it's like stop that stop embarrassing yourself and stop embarrassing the rest of us by thinking you know what everyone's motivation is and just listen like what they have provided for the past two whatever years is a shitload of information that no one else has put out there yet like that's the fact they they and they alone are responsible for nearly all of the US Navy's admissions they've been pushing that they are responsible for like all those New York Times pieces that yes the New York Times is the mouthpiece of the establishment but the fact is when the New York Times publishes halfway decent articles on UFOs which they did last May in 2019 on the USS Roosevelt like that was actually that was a decent piece of journalism that Leslie and Helene Cooper and Ralph Blumenthal did that's TTSA getting that information out there like they are intimately involved in that so those are significant things that they have done and it I find it disheartening like the day is going to come when they're gone they don't exist and they've broken up and and we're going to look back and think wow we treated them really shitty well they were out there working and trying to move the ball a little bit down the field that's what I think is going to happen you know that's an awesome take and I'm going to wrap things up here but I want to draw people's attention to again the the if you're interested in that last part of this discussion the presentation you did on Copenhagen in Copenhagen because you lay out in a very rich and systematic way one after another and one little thing I was going to pick up on is you trace document and support the idea that that was the beginning of the disclosure movement and then I think you call me on in a very you know everyone stops the New York Times like I do I stop at the New York Times and go ah if you go no wait that's the beginning then look at look at Walpole look at the next article that Leslie Leslie Cain publishes look at this one look at this one very you can't argue with that because you do a great job of laying let me say this this is me contradicting myself again I I mean I said we're not in a disclosure era because it's not a government promoted thing but I'll share with you something that put off said to me in an email earlier this year and you know he um talking I'm talking about I'm trying to remember exactly what I asked him oh this is in connection to the Wilson League um but he used the phrase with me he says yeah it's just more toothpaste out of the tube and I've been using that phrase for this year uh it's a really apropos statement it's what's happening is with disclosure uh with with the disclosures of these various things that have been happening it's more toothpaste out of the tube it's not going back in um and so now we're at a point where there's a bit of momentum for the first time in our lifetimes for the UFO subject actually to get a little bit more and better coverage in our official mainstream yes totally corrupt corporate dominated media but nonetheless it's getting more coverage that's very significant so um the question and you're seeing like there's media people I mean some people have very strong opinions about Fox but there's Tucker Carlson who's actually doing superb journalism on UFO compared with any other person out in the mainstream like this guy seriously has said some courageous things about this and he's done some good work on this so there is definitely momentum happening the only question is how far will it go the problem that I just see here is I like the the analogy of the irresistible force versus the immovable object so the disclosure movement is is in possibly becoming an irresistible force but secrecy is that immovable object and and one one thing you learn when you study the the Eric Davis notes on Admiral the Admiral Wilson interview is just how deep how privatized and how deep and how secret a lot of this UFO secret is and how difficult it will be to get this pulled out into the light of day I don't know how that's going to work out you know DeLong last summer dropped a couple of very interesting tweets about this and people love to laugh and dismiss this guy but he said a couple of smart things and one of the things had to do with uh he said you think atyp was the whole the whole program he said think again we're not talking tens of millions he says try hundreds of millions of dollars and I'm guessing it's more than that but the other thing he said is if you really want to end this secrecy you need a fundamental legal revolution and I think that's right like the legality of this illegal business has got to change somehow and how to change it like this is a serious issue like the only thing that I can see is when enough people when the culture changes like the only way it's going to happen is if the culture changes sufficiently so that enough people realize like this is really important we've got to do something and and then when a lot more brains than ours are looking at this talking about this and there's actual pressure to open this up and then and only then and maybe only then will we have a chance that my big hope on when with Bryce I wrote after disclosure a decade ago was I thought something big could happen we're in an unstable civilization where there's wiki leaks and there's all these other leaks and there's all these everyone's got a camcorder or their phones got video and like I envisioned like there could be a big event that would happen that would cause like an avalanche and that avalanche hasn't happened what we are seeing though is drip drip drip drip and it's becoming significant and I'm waiting for that avalanche like I think that's still likely when we get to a certain critical mass and I don't know what that critical mass is I don't know that will be that is such an awesomely nuanced response it is like I've said throughout this interview that is that is classic Richard Dolan I don't know if you've totally picked me up and turned me around but yeah kind of maybe turn me around a little bit around a few things as well unconscious it's like a really fun little intellectual wrestling match that we just had here and there's no wrestling with you man you're the you're the boss you're the boss jiu-jitsu dojo master you and and you're doing you know I mentioned this maybe in the pre-interview role I'm a Richard Dolan member it's like one of the best values out there for anyone who's interested in this stuff because you produce so much great content and so much that you give away for free but there's also stuff that's behind the wall as it should be can you tell people a little bit about what you do in that respect and stuff that's coming up for for you that that maybe people should have and look out for that absolutely thank you Alex and thank you for saying what you did about my site that Tracy and I run that and it's a lot of work but I've decided look if I want to devote my life to this type of thing that I do like I have to figure out a way to make it work so I can't trust YouTube because that's the hammer is definitely coming down on YouTube in every way so what I've decided is I mean I sell some books I write books and sell those but I created this website Richard Dolan members where it's true I put a I put a tremendous amount of content out there for people who want to go to the site and people can complain they're like well you know you're trying to make money and I'm like yes I am trying to make money like we're not 12 years old like the people who say oh my god someone's trying to make money out of a out of this field like are you a child like what do you think people do to live like it just never ceases to amaze me so I got it's also you know I like the way people put it and it's really true it's the value for value exchange exactly people are free to valuable and what else are you spending your money on and you know in a lot of ways we're all becoming used to it more right so we pay for Netflix and then we're like I already paid for Netflix do I really have to pay for ESPN plus well yes you have to pay for ESPN plus and that's just the way it is so I don't have I agree I think it's it's a childish complaint and when you look at the numbers I mean getting getting rich I mean you know no no I'm trying to leave PewDiePie's getting rich but Richard Dolan's not making millions of dollars off of this he's just hopefully we're supporting him to continue to do that who else is going to do this research oh no thank you um yeah it allows me to live and I'm happy and it works so uh this is a model in a system that is working for me for now but in terms of what I'm working working on um in addition to doing the content for my site which I'm very committed to doing I had a couple of uh I guess I went in a couple of different directions over the last few years that I think I've sorted out finally so I thought I was going to do a whole false flag book that was my big big thing for a while and that can still happen frankly I've a tremendous amount of research on the history of false flags that I can and and probably will turn into a book but I decided maybe a year ago that I was going back full-time into UFOs and and that means the third volume of UFOs in the national security state which is a a dreaded project that's been hanging over my head for a while but I feel like I can do it now and um the only the thing oh pardon me the only thing that might get in the way of it is if I do a quick little 150 page book on the last two three years of ufology ufology turned upside down which to me is a fascinating story um but I may incorporate that into volume three of national security state but that that's what I'm working on I have just reorganized my main office which was in an absolute state of disaster for the last year and a half and I can work there and I can actually get some writing done so that's my goal for 2020 is to focus as much of my writing as I can problem is frankly um it's a problem and it's not a problem like people invite me to speak in various places and do various things and I enjoy those but those take time out of my work and uh it's it's hard I've actually I've been turning a lot of events down because I have to stay home and I've got to be able to focus on my writing in my work so I'm doing some travel but hopefully not not as much as I've done in the past well we're counting on you to get in that office crank it out like only only you could do it richard's been an absolute delight pleasure so much thank you so much for joining me and spending so much time with us and uh we'll stay in touch I would do this again just to let you know I've enjoyed this very much it's a great conversation so thank you for having me on Alex thanks again to Richard Dolan for joining me on Skeptico what a great guest what an open and welcoming guy for someone who has done all he has done inside of this field it's just amazing to talk to him so one question I'd have to tea up from this interview is toothpaste is toothpaste good or is toothpaste not good if you're remember from this interview Richard's point I think if I got it right was squeezing that UFO disclosure toothpaste out of the tube is probably a good thing and maybe we shouldn't come down so hard on those who are trying to do it or maybe we should consider all the aspects of what they're doing before we criticize them as I sometimes do so if you'd like to tee up that question with me and other folks who listen to this show please join us over on the Skeptico forum which you can find all our shows there and you can talk to everybody about them and you can also go to the Skeptico website of course and download any of these shows for free now ads or firewalls and you're free to share them around and redistribute them the idea is really just to get this information out to people who need it so if you know someone who needs to hear this information please share the show with them I have some great episodes of Skeptico coming up I think this one was terrific again it's so cool to talk to a guy like Richard Dolan who can kind of go up to the big picture but can also dive into the details great stuff and I have some really terrific ones coming up too I think so please do stay with me for all of that until next time take care and bye for now