 Welcome to even the TV. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, and it's my great pleasure Have you here? As we discussed that we shared the several things yes, you know, then we are the Long one. Yeah, the other thing is actually The book a plus a short with that also changed my view of all so I really love this book I Planned to introduce you as well as this book and this TV. Good. So good. So that's good. So are we are sharing? Yes, that's a short change my life. Yeah unfortunately What is happening in Korea is pretty similar to what it's That's what I showed you in the book the current government government actually Includes Looters Take most of the Truth from innovators Increasing exploitation um between Workers and also workers from innovators. Yeah It's pretty sad that that this government is Really focusing on inequalities Could you explain why that doesn't that actually is not the right things as you expect? Absolutely, I mean inequality From an economics perspective and from an ethical perspective is irrelevant. All right It's just not important what's important is freedom And when you take people and you make them free And you protect them so that they can't steal from one another and they can't use fraud against one another Then what you get is inequality because we don't produce at the same level. We don't have the same ideas There's only one steep jobs. There's only one go gates And unfortunately, I mean I wish there were more of them and but these are Productive geniuses who create enormous amounts of wealth for all of us And they take a tiny share Of what they produce for the world But that tiny share is so large that income inequality increases, but we're all better off All of us our lives are better for having had steep jobs and bill gates or I like to use Jk wallets the woman who votes a heavy part Yeah, because everybody knows heavy part and everybody's really heavy part and I say Jk wallets is really really bad because she increased income inequality. It's terrible I got poor because I bought the books and she got richer. She became a billionaire. She's a billionaire today That's wrong because I'm poor enough and people scratch their heads that because that doesn't see right No, we're all richer because we were having part up and we got the spiritual benefit of reading the books And I'm happy that jk wallets is a billionaire Because it rewarded her from making our lives better and that's true of all innovators and entrepreneurs and creators and builders The world the view of the korean government and I think the view of so many people in the world today Is that trade and innovation and production and economics Is a zero sum world That your gain is my loss But no in a free market Your gain is my gain If you make money, it's because my life is better because I bought your product I'm not going to buy your product unless your product makes my life better So we need to change our paradigm Economics is win-win trade is win-win. It's mutually beneficial We don't win at the same rate because we don't produce the same value. So, you know, uh, some of us are teachers And as teachers, we're never going to make a lot of money Because we only teach we teach a few hundred kids every year. So over a lifetime, we might influence a few thousand people A bill gates of steep jobs influenced billions of people daily change the lives of billions of people So they make more money than us Okay, I don't care. I actually am happy. I would thank bill gates if I met him or steep jobs when I met him because again, they made my life better so The whole obsession about zero some about inequality is is an obsession driven by zero some mentality One person's gain is another person's loss and from an ethical perspective, it's driven by envy Why does he have more than I do? Right instead of respect for somebody who has more than I do Yeah, the I I also argued the same logic to couldn't public Recently the many economists or the the official Officers in the Korean government claimed that the top 1% or 10% share Has been increasing so much. It's just like in the last day. Yeah So I I I argued that no no because of that many Korean Companies it comes so globally successful like the sounds like electronics so of course because they globally say They're global success well, yes, and They take a small portion of that. That's the super terry and your innovation pool You were right. So if in the past They just made the lives of Koreans better, right? They made x now they're making the lives of people all over the world Better so their x is multiplied. It's bigger. Exactly a good example of that from the United States is athletes basketball players basketball players make a lot more money today than they did 20 30 years ago and you know, why is that? It's because today basketball is a global industry people in china people in korea people in europe watch american basketball So LeBron james is not only entertaining americans. He's entertaining the entire world So his so of course in the entire world is is paying right through advertising to the owners of the teams And LeBron james is making more money because his market now is global rather than national and the same thing of these multinational companies They are now having an impact globally instead as just nationally and as a consequence of that Their income has gone up dramatically whereas the worker in the factory is still only In a sense doing the same job, right? He might be more productive and wages at the bottom have gone up It's not true that they are statin. They've gone up. They've just gone up more slowly Because the increase in productivity has not matched to go the kind of effective globalization. Yeah, I always Take the example for example BTS. Have we've got that? No, no that's uh, uh A group of boys so Famous now all the musicians secretion. Yes. Yes. Yes, and we call idol groups. Yes, and now they they are Britain and america Clearly they are coming in so much money. That's why they have ways to hurt me. That's that's a ridiculous one and As you described when you decide to move to united states, you never Consider the inequality, right and many defectors from north korea to south They never could actually care about the inequality. They really came here For the economic opportunities, right? Yeah, and I often Amazed by the fact that actually the north korea and south korea is a good example Really economic opportunity matters and uh, it kind of freedom matters. Yes inequality is a natural Result of that freedom, right? So but still people think or it didn't kind of come to think that the inequality is is unfair and another just is and and so on so Well, unfortunately, it comes from a philosophy that philosophical fertilizer and ethics That says equality is some kind of ideal, right? We we you know, but but we are metaphysically different human beings We have different interests different characters Different motivations and we're going to produce at different levels And and to assume that we're all the same goes counter to reality counter to nature And the only way we become equal Is the north korea the only way we become equal is if we're all equally poor Yes, right and and north korea. I mean people think of north korea as this aberration But the fact is that 300 years ago the whole world was north korea Right Everybody was poor until capitalism until we had free markets and once you had capitalism free markets suddenly Everybody got rich relative to the way things work Just some people got rich faster than other people But everybody was better off and I would argue that the only reason the poor Is the people who lined it up for got much much richer is because the rich got even richer Because the fact is that nobody gets rich Nobody's life improves Unless you have entrepreneurs, right? Unless you have innovation unless you have businessmen unless you have capital investments Capitalists and entrepreneurs and CEOs managers or big companies They produce the most they create the standard living we live at we should be saying thank you to them Not denouncing them because they make it possible for all of us to rise the reason Wages have gone up over the last 50 years in korea because you used to be Poorer than north korea. The reason those wages have gone up is because of the increased productivity of labor Labor has increased productivity because capital has been invested in that labor labor doesn't become more productive just by itself You have to invest capital and that is entrepreneurs. That's capitalists. That's financial markets That's the other features of a free market along your logic actually it was another Awakening moment when I read the economists so well Thomas all Thomas all He said that what is amazing is not the Why the people are poor actually how many why so many people certainly It's No, the natural stage of mankind Yeah, the state of mankind before capitalism before the industrial revolution before the age of reason But you know before capital is invested is poverty for a hundred thousand years Since the beginning of man since the beginning of homo sapiens We work poor and it's only in the last 200 years that anybody in the world has really been rich How long have we had electricity? How long have we had running water and and and actually, you know Sewage and all the conveniences that we enjoy like all these phones, right? These phones have only been around for 11 years I mean we take them for granted as if they've been here forever But somebody had to invent that somebody had to invest in somebody had to take a risk on it All that capital had to capital had to be smart enough to see that this was the future 99.999 percent of the people would have never invested in an iPhone So it took a particular genius to do it and now we want to punish them. We want to penalize them We want to take their money away Why I mean it's it's unbelievably unjust and unfair. I say equality is unjust equality is unfair The only valid equality Is equal political equality equality of freedom quality of rights equality before the law But quality has no place in economics Yeah, I fully agree that and unfortunately this Korean government is trying very hard To punish this innovators nowadays. That's what it's said And I think in the if I value your logic One of the really fatal assumption is the Group high assumption Assumption because the Korean culture is so collective Based on collectivism And that's also that assumption is much stronger than any other part of the world. That's that's really What we are struggling to explain the importance of the freedom and Yeah, I think that's right. The real battle is all collectivism. Yeah, the real battle is not about economics Because the economic issue we want a long time ago free market work The real battle is is trying to convince people that collectivism is bad And and that only individualism can produce the kind of results that they want in their life Only individualism is the appropriate way for human beings to live because yes We assume that there is a collective pie out there that wealth korean There's such a thing as korean wealth, but there is no korean wealth There's no wealth you create and I create and somebody else creates and we create at different levels But the wealth is only individual wealth is produced by individuals And when we assume that wealth is collectivized and people look and say, okay, is this pie Is this korean? Well, how are we going to distribute it? No, that's a completely wrong way of looking at it There's no pie. It's not a static pie. It's a there's no static pie because wealth grows, but more importantly There's no collective pie You know Other people can't eat for me I have to eat myself, right? Other people can't think for me And other people can't produce for me So we understand at the biological level that we're individuals Now we have to understand at the political moral level that we're individuals the fundamental unit in society is the individual And if I produce stuff You don't have a right to it. You can't steal it away from me And what the government does is theft by taking from someone giving to others That is that is theft You know, it's it's taking what an individual produces. It's taking food off their table Um, and it's not relevant how much you need or how much society decides you need It's how much you use an individual produce. So yeah, I think the ultimate battle And this is the battle we've been fighting for hundreds of years. It's a deeply philosophical battle Is this battle between collectivism and individualism as long as we think that the group is more important than the individual We will always be willing to sacrifice the individual to the group And what we need is to change our thinking and and and to embrace kind of the enlightenment the european enlightenment Idea that the individual is what's sacred The individual is what matters and the only reason to form a collectivist to protect that individual That's what we have governments and not for real estate But the individual is the unit of morality the individual is the unit that is that is The matters not the group is just the collection of individuals With that that is called will pay That's that the theft is called walking. Yeah, that's called work. Yeah, unfortunately use of the word yeah, and You might get from east guy. Yes and Israel is one of the most innovative countries actually producing us of the Unicorn yes Amazing number of startups successful startups On the other hand, uh, like in korea that that big business conglomerates always play That they have too much economic power. Yeah, okay, true. I think It's the only Other country than korea that actually government to try to reform Corporate governance by law The what do you think that that that here? the korean government, I think there's much Larger portion of the economic development the difficulties actually came Coming from the government the failure not the market failure actually But the people and those progress Guys always blamed the big corporate in korea. So they become the public enemy in korea and even Out of the three economic part of the pillars of current government actually, you know dismantling his Congregation So So I think korea to the extent that the government in the past has protected the conglomerates and given them special favors That's compared to entrepreneurs. That's bad So what we want is the government to be less involved in the economy to get out of the economy and not to break up the businesses But to allow also for competition not to protect them not to bail them out Not to tell the banks they have to lend them money But to actually allow for real competition. So the more the government gets out of the economy the better it is Israel is an interesting case because israel when I was growing up in israel Israel was a socialist country the largest employer in israel in in the 50 60 70s with the labor unions The labor unions owned the means of production. It was real socialism But starting in the 1980s That was broken up the the labor union's power was reduced They were forced to sell off the factories. Everything was privatized And I think that is a big reason why israel has become so successful I think the other reason why israel has so many innovations and innovators is a cultural issue We grew up in israel We grew up on the with disagreements the whole culture in israel is you disagree You know, we fight we argue. So dinner dinner time at a typical You know house in in israel is everybody's arguing everybody's yelling at one another, right? And that's encourage the disagreement is encouraged. They're thinking for yourself is encouraged independence is encouraged And I think that produces an entrepreneurial mentality Right. I'm willing to take risk. I'm willing to argue. I'm always you disagree because entrepreneurs are people who disagree Or people who think they can do things better than what's so I think the culture contributes to that But I would say the israeli government today is still way too involved in the economy And they are they actually do provide some monopoly protections that they have protected certain industries For example, some of the farming industries some of the agricultural industries in israel are protected from competition Part of the protection is with tariffs. So it's very expensive to import food Into israel so that they can you know, it's like the milk lobby in israel is very powerful And they they have monopoly power over milk prices. Whereas you can import milk cheaper, right? From some of our neighbors, and I think that's to have cement that's to have a number of different things But in the tech space The government has very much left that market alone So so it functions you have venture capital you have entrepreneurs and and companies rise up without Government permission without government authority without government, you know intervention So that's why I think you have so much innovation in But israel too has the same kind of stuff because they need I fear that much of the world Is is is very similar to the situation in korea. I mean we're seeing more government intervention more Europe more government controls You know more inequality is a big issue in the united states I think it's partially the fact that people talked about is partially why donald trump got elected Because he got elected by people who thought inequality is a bad thing And then he was going to fix it by bringing manufacturing back to the united state Which is complete myth and and and ridiculous and of course he is engaged in a trade war Now because it makes economic sense because as economists we know it doesn't make economic sense But because he like many people in the world today if you trade is a zero-sum game And he thinks the united states wins when it puts on tariffs So the economic ignorance I think driven from the collectivism and driven from our morality that says we should all be equal It's stunning in the world today. We should know so much better than we don't yeah It's not the science. It's not the reasoning. It's the myth. Yes. Yes, and also many politicians actually To such a take such courses because it gives the power power. Yeah, so they encourage the mythology They encourage the line because it gives them more control even the many scholars Left-wing scholars in korea actually spread such myths and fake news and sometimes Extremely distorted facts. So what I I have been doing is actually pointing out Aircrafts are not based on the facts good and business logics So Could you explain what you were instituted? And land institute Yeah, I mean the iron institute is basically there to promote the ideas of iron man It's it's to you know, she died in 1982 and she was found 1985 to continue her legacy It's to get people interested in her ideas I think her ideas are the most important ideas in the world today because not only do they deal with the political economic Level, but they they create their moral and philosophical foundation for freedom And I think that's where the disagreements really are deep It's in and I think they it's the fact that people believe in a false morality and believe in collectivism It's why they are willing to accept these false ridiculous ideas and economics So we have to challenge that and my view is iron man is the only thinker That can really challenge these fundamentally collectivistic ideas because she has a philosophical context So our institute is there to promote these ideas whether it's to get people Particularly young people to read her books because just like our lives were changed by apple shrug Maybe you know, I'm hoping the millions of people's lives will be changed ultimately via the shrug and then to to You know use her ideas to comment on current events to show people how applicable they are How relevant they are to the current debate And we also teach her philosophy so that we can train Future intellectuals so there will be future thinkers future economists future political scientists future historians Who can use these ideas of individualism and reason and reality and and rational self-interest To explain the world to the public and hopefully bring about real cultural change because I think Politics is downstream from culture But culture is downstream from philosophy what matters are the philosophical ideas people hold That establishes a culture and the culture we get the politicians we deserve I mean It's sad that Korea deserves Didn't these politicians if Israel deserves it and we I guess in the United States we deserve Donald Trump Because we have a culture that fits their their personality. So we have to change the culture and this is why it's hard work It's why these kind of videos are so important And the work you do is so important because you're trying to change The way people think about the world you're challenging the status quo You know and that has to be done if we're ever going to change the politics. Yeah, my institute actually Have been using a lot of material from FRE Yes, and and our heritage foundation and maybe kato. Yeah. Yes, and the kebabs from written yes, yes, so Please let me know there what uh, what kind of I guess specific activities and what you have then we I am long to good. I mean Idea and your viewers could go to iron van dot org a y n r and e dot o g and of course I have a I have a podcast that I do three four times a week or whenever I have an opportunity and I try to talk about these ideas and try to spread these ideas So I just look up my name and google and go youtube and you can find you can find my my podcast But but yeah, we produced a lot of content happy to share that content with you and In all those organizations that produce a good work And again That is all the economics layer. What we're trying to do is is is is present kind of the philosophical layer Which it all rests which I think is what Rans good job is and until we change people's attitudes towards morality towards collectivism Towards their own life in a sense. It's hard to do the economics It's hard to convince them about the economics Because as I said, we want the economic debate a long time ago Yes, you know three markets work and this this country is the best That's the north korea, right? There's no better example than south korea In 50 years you went from being poorer than north korea to mean much much much richer than north korea Why because three markets because you implemented some some pro-market strategies and not even all the way Imagine how rich korea would be if you really implemented three markets all the way, right? You'd be even richer than you are today. Yes I open that this society is going to forget about this for little type of Are they that now hong kong and singapore is much much richer to richer than korea because they stay don't try out They they are cutting out that much for your countries than yes, although again Both of those countries are starting to head in the wrong direction hong kong because of china's influence And singapore because there's again like I think in a lot of countries This issue of inequality has become a big issue and the opposition in singapore Is becoming more powerful and they're trying to influence the government to take on more leftist policies And more collectivistic policies So even singapore is now in danger of adopting Anti-market policies, and I think that the whole world seems to be drifting in that direction It's it's very disheartening And it means we need to do we need to work even harder to try to try to try to keep the freedoms that we have Okay, uh, I wish I could continue this discussion all day that you have to catch the fly I do I do I have to we have to conclude this here for your fly And so thank you so much my pleasure. Thank you. You're my best to spread that uh ideas of philosophy And then materials to your institute Wonderful anything we can do to help we'd love to help. Yeah, or so if possible. I may Send with some of the young People to your institute we actually a young Korean From here just started as an intern at the institutes on Monday She just started So yes, we have essay contest that Korean students have participated in the past She was a semi finalist in one of our essay contests My day she applied for an internship through the the coke institute And she got the internship and she started now So we're very very excited to have her and we'd love to have more in the future. Okay Yeah, thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you. My pleasure. Okay